I think it is clear from preseason that Dalen Terry is a bust.
I didn't watch the game last night but my view is they need to set up plays for Julien Phillips and just see how he does. Need to see what his strengths and weaknesses are.
So the question is why doesn’t Debo get more assists and 3 pointers when he’s clearly capable? Does the coach not ask for these, or does the coach ask but player ignores. In both cases the problem is with the coach!
I think they are trying to change, but also that their instincts will show up when times get tough and they will revert to their old ways. Every team wants to push the tempo more, it rarely lasts. That was the best part about Lonzo as he really could keep it up. Overall, we'll be looking at roughly the same team as last year, somewhere in the top 7-10 in the East. The only difference being I actually see management making big changes this time around if we don't find any success this season.
Not sure I necessarily see management making big changes this time around if this team doesn't find success this season (they just re-signed Vooch for three years and haven't been quiet about their desire to re-sign DeMar), but I do agree that they are at least trying to change how this team operates this season.
I found it interesting that in the first quarter yesterday when they were pushing the ball and launching threes, they easily built up a lead despite not shooting particularly well. But then when the starters came back in in the second quarter, they slowed it down quite a bit and that's when we saw Vooch start to get his coveted touches on offense where he was expected to make plays. Ironically he threw the ball away on two of those possessions. Anyway, their lead quickly disappeared after that.
So it's clear that pushing the ball and taking more threes can be effective. What I'm really curious to see is if the mid-3 stick to that game plan as the season goes on. I'm probably just being cynical, but I won't believe it until I see it.
A few way-too-early observations after yesterday's preseason game:
1. Carter and Craig were excellent additions. Not saying they'll magically make this team a top six seed, but they will legitimately provide in areas the Bulls have been lacking over the last couple of years. And they are both on great contracts, so I'll give AK credit for that. I also think the two of them should start alongside the mid-3.
2. Coby looked really good. He made a couple poor passes, but the two that I remember were booth good looks, he just made the pass a touch too late. Hopefully as he gets more comfortable, those decisions will start coming a tad sooner and not result in turnovers.
3. Pat was also solid. I'll admit, my hopes are raised for Pat this season and I'm ready to be disappointed. Some of his quotes over the past week or so have given me hope. He has seemed much more confident and even willing to say he wants the ball in his hands. That's not something we would have heard last year. Dude still needs to rebound though. He can't be grabbing two or three rebounds a game.
4. Dalen Terry is not long for the NBA. It would behoove the Bulls to trade him for whatever they can as soon as possible. I like his aggression but he just seems lost.
I agree with you on Carter and Craig being nice bench guys. When I say they should start, I don't mean because I think they're starting level players in the NBA. I mean that this team is so poorly constructed that they make the most sense starting alongside the mid-3.
yeah what little I saw of the game was Dalen Terry airballing a layup to himself. Bulls still could decline his option for 2024-25, though it's so cheap that may make him less tradeable
That's the problem with this team, though: they have 3 players who all think of themselves as number 1 options and are all veterans.
Williams was a sixth man on his college team. He clearly is a player who is happy/open/okay with taking a backseat for the "good of the team" and probably needs to be forced to take a lead. I don't care what coaches or advisors or fans tell him, that seems mighty tough for a player/person with his personality to do with guys like DeRozan, LaVine, and Vucevic all on the team.
Let's not forget that DeRozan has felt slighted in his career and may finally feel vindicated as an MVP-level player for more than half a season his first year with the Bulls. LaVine also felt slighted as also-ran and behind Wiggins and Towns and now feels justified in his max contract. And Vucevic just spent a whole week talking about how he needs the ball so much more.
I don't know how a young player asserts themself in that environment.
If you think you have a big offensive three and they do score 70 ppg but have never had effective complementary players around them then sure why not put your next two best offensive players next to them and ask them to do what they do NOT do well while removing their opportunity to do what they DO do well. In other words start Carter and Craig with the half court iso heavy group and build a second team built around downhill play and defense with Pat and Coby counted on to score. Pretty obvious way to maximize THIS particular roster but Billy won't do it because PLAYERS....
Just some of my own observations from the first preseason game:
- there was a conscious effort for the Bulls pg to head the break, and this was done by guys sort of waiting for Coby to cross half court before actually sprinting down for the half court sets. That's actually kind of cool. It gives Coby a chance to cause some mayem if the defense is waiting for their assignments to come down and potentially get a decent look from midrange in space, and also gives guys like lavine a chance to score in "transition" off a quick pass.
- pat Williams took some aggressive (for him) shots. Keep it up I guess? His defense looked good though. Probably not a star but if he can be a two way switchable pf that's valuable to have.
- I've never been high on terry and remain meh on him. Ditto for Julian Phillips. I truly have no clue what the two bring to the team other than youth.
- vuc just sticks out as unnecessary. What is he providing that another big couldn't. Maybe Milwaukee is a bad match up (which doesn't bode well as you need to go through them if u want success) but the fact that the bulls don't call any plays outside of the short rolls for Vuc just to me diminishes his value. Like Billy's answer to vuc' s concerns was "fine - instead of popping out for last minute 3s, fade into last minute midrange shots".
"I've never been high on terry and remain meh on him. Ditto for Julian Phillips. I truly have no clue what the two bring to the team other than youth."
The real indictment here is that Terry and Phillips look practically interchangeable, except Terry was a top 20 pick and Phillips was a second round pick. What the actual fuck did AKME think they were doing picking him 18th?
At least Phillips has crazy athleticism to rely on. He could at least turn into a solid 3 and D forward. What is Terry supposed to become?
supposed to supply playmaking and defense at the wing, problem is he can't dribble or shoot so it's hard to 'make plays', and he's pretty slight and young to be good at defense yet
That draft was so annoying. I wanted Eason so bad and he went one pick before ADHD Chandler Hutchinson. What is with the Bulls and overdrafting marginal wings that could have easily been picked in the 2nd round(Tony Snell, Hutchinson)?
I'd trade Dalen for a 2nd yesterday...not sure what they saw in dude besides the mirage of playmaking.
It stunk because there were so many smart people talking about how the Bulls backed themselves into a corner and HAD to re-sign Vucevic.
Yes, they should have traded Vucevic so they weren't in that position. But, even so, they should have let him leave and a) tampered with Naz Reid to let him know they were interested in giving him a starting spot or b) just kept the space open and looked to trade DeRozan and/or LaVine and rebuild.
Soooooo many people fell into the sunk-cost fallacy with Vuc. Terrible.
I get free agency is a 2 (or more?) way street so even if they tampered I'm not sure if Naz Reid would be game in a small market like Chicago. I think letting Vuc walk for nothing is worse than what we have. Vuc doesn't actively suck, he's just not...important. And I feel like this can't be a shock. Billy has an offensively versatile center and is like "I'm just gnna have you set screens and take jumpers every now and then". If that was all billy needed from the center position he should have been traded whenever possible and replaced with literally any big who could hit 15 footers. By signing him you at least have a trade asset. Bulls were going to be over the cap so it's not like they could have used the money elsewhere. So I think resigning him was more the lesser of two evils... Because the bulls didn't act when they should have. It's just upsetting that they weren't proactive in trading him when he had value as an expiring deal.
I don't get the sarcasm (I'm hoping?) with the small market of Chicago. He's behind two All Star centers or he could have been starting in Chicago for possibly more money. I don't think it's a hard decision for him, but who knows.
And saying letting him walk is worse is just short-term thinking. Is this year's team worse? Probably. But is it better for the beyond this one season? Yes. Definitely. But that's the Bulls (and Bulls fans and writers it seems) - just thinking one step ahead and not further. And even saying this season would be worse, I'm not convinced. There are tons of young options out there that MIGHT have been better. Unlikely, probably, but not definitely.
With the way salaries are going and how the cap is projected to go, I don’t think the Bulls will be that hamstrung with the Vooch deal. But I agree, I’d also rather have let him go.
Yes, and no. Hamstrung to add any players? No, of course not. But hamstrung to add a better center? They won't do that, of course. I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but if they decide to bring back DeRozan (obvioiusly if he agrees), aren't they basically just bringing the same team back again, other than the margins and whatever they decide to do with Williams?
It won't stop THIS FRONT OFFICE from doing anything, but it's still a big chunk of money committed to mediocrity. And it would definitely hamper a good front office.
I like the mid-e idea. I propose the "grande 3" - like from Starbucks. Because it means big in Spanish, but it actually represents mid-range. To me, I like it because it mocks the Bulls for selling something as a Big 3 but really it's mid-tier, and it's all just marketing gobbledygook. Which, yeah, is the ethos of the Bulls.
We already know what we have in the Big Three, but it's way too early to make any pronoouncements about the new minor pieces that will surround them. But having said that, a few observations:
1. Re Coby at PG, nah, I don't believe it. Hope I'm wrong but it just really isn't in his DNA to set up shots for others. He's a scoring machine and, per some of his comments quoted during the broadcast, would like to become like High School Coby or College Coby, filling up the stat sheet and shoot-shoot-shooting.
2. This three-point specialist from Turkey, Bitim, I mean hmm, might they have something there? No miracle, mind you, but a reliable 40+ percent three-point shooter who can also help space the floor?
3. I am about done waiting for Dalen Terry. He seems to have incredible talent but plays out of control and the game seems way too fast for him. Mistakes abound. Too bad, had high hopes for the guy. And I see no evidence that his teammates trust him, either. He gets the ball on his own and shoots, it isn't passed to him often.
3. Sanogo is intriguing. What an immovable pick he sets, eh? Good rebounding and did a lot on the floor that raises hopes, but he is very, very rough. Worst case is he becomes another Felicio. Best case is a junior Drummond-lite.
4. Considering all the accolades re his off-season achievements in other competitive venues, is there anything to be excited about in Carlique Jones? Let me know when you know.
5. Taylor, Jackson and Lewis were good in a try-hard way. We'll see.
6. Jevon Carter as a big off-season acquisition. Oh boy, thanks, AK.
1) The best way to describe bringing back Vuc would be….comically pointless. He and the trade that was made to acquire him have essentially become the faces of this mediocre era, which is why giving him a new contract was so laughable. Any smart GM would have looked at the situation last year and said “At the very least, we have to move on from Vuc.” Instead, AK said “At the very least, we have to bring back Vuc.” And to anyone covering the Bulls who has wondered if the team should be run through Vuc more…stop it. Yes, he’s a center. Yes, he can pass a bit. Yes, he can shoot a bit. No, these things do not make him a poor man’s Jokic. They make him a poor man’s all-star reserve. The fact that we might waste FIVE AND A HALF YEARS watching him play in a Bulls uniform is unforgivable.
2) Bitim’s shot alone should result in him getting more NBA minutes than Terry.
3) The continuous improvement of Coby has been encouraging to see. He looks like a legit weapon on offense and competent on defense. If he were to come off the bench, I actually think he has “sixth man of the year” potential. He also might become a solid starter this year, which is great to see.
4) This is Zach’s seventh year on the team. Jimmy was here for six years. Let that fact sink in. We’ve won one playoff game since that trade. Can we fire Gar Forman again?
5) Unless Coby or Pat makes a big leap, this team has a clear ceiling. Carter and Craig raise the floor. I see this team winning around 44 games.
Would blazers take Ball, DeRozan and their pick back for Grant and brogdon? Trade couldn’t happen until Jan15. Would Bulls be better off? It would stick us with Grant’s contract who is another ‘mid’ but a better 3 and D player.
I also like Debo for Suggs, Isaac, and the 2025 FRP from Denver. Orlando probably doesn’t do this, but Isaac will dominate defensively if he stays healthy. He’s the kind of shot blocking PF we need next to Vuc.
Maybe we do a Debo deal with Knicks that includes Fournier and a FRP, and we route both to ORL for Isaac?
Portland would want their pick back because the constraints on it make it difficult to trade future picks. They wouldn’t be getting win now players. Ball won’t play this year and Debo could be flipped for more assets (like clipper pick + expirings) or kept to nurture the youngsters. The trade would help their tanking and giving playing time to youth, which is why they should be doing now. And it improves their future financial flexibility. The question is are Brogdon + long-term Grant > Debo for Bulls.
With or without the pick, the deal would save Portland $150M. Not sure how much Grant is worth to other teams with $160M due thru 2028. Brogdon for Ball would just be to free up more time for Scoot and for tanking. Sad that pick was the “1st rounder” for dumping future all-star Lauri.
Game two was a bit deceptive. Chicago shot 38 threes, but only 29 or 30 of those came in regulation.
Vooch was thoroughly outplayed for the second straight game by his opponent. To be fair, this time it was Jokic. He now has five turnovers to three assists in preseason. Not great for the Point-Vooch crowd.
Pat forgot to show up, but had a great +/-. Shows how deceptive that can be in isolation.
Coby needs to get more shots up. This is why I don't want him starting. There's just not enough to go around playing alongside the mid-3.
Coby White really is starting to look like a PG. Good passing skills. Shot looks good. Looks like maybe Donovan is finally giving him a bit more free reign.
I think KC said Billy wanted to give them a game off and this game made the most sense since it was an away game. The final two games are home games, so they gotta trot out there to keep the home crowd happy.
The Bulls have shot 29 threes (in regulation) each of the last two games. Glad to see that the "shoot more threes" mantra didn't even make it out of preseason.
Last year, the average team took 33.3 3PAs per 36. The Bulls took 28.9
So really, we need to take about 4.3 more per 36 minutes to get to league average. I don't think this is unreasonable at all.
1. Zach shot about 7.1 per 36. This, by itself isn't "bad", but it's not what it should be for the best shooter on the team. For reference: Curry, Klay, Lillard are all >11. Mitchell >9, Tatum >9, Luka and several other players who are nowhere near as good shooters are over 8.
So, I would want Zach shooting ~ 9 three pointers a game.
That gets us 2.
2. Last year Ayo played ~ 2100 minutes and shot 3.2 3pa per 36. If we make the assumption that he only plays a much smaller role... we give 400 minutes of his to Coby (7.2 3pa) and 900 to Carter (6.8 3pa) then we end up with 6.5 per 36.
That gets us another 3.3.
3. If Pat plays about the same minutes but can get convert about 1 more attempt into a 3 instead of a 2, that'll get us another one. I'll just call it +0.7 3pa per 36 to make it a nice round number.
That in total would give us an additional 6 3pa per 36 minutes (35.9 for the team) which would rank us 8th last year.
Zach is an above average 3 point shooter...in no way is he average or below....the other two are
here's my breakdown of where the team should be at with 3 pt attempts...i dont think this would be asking too much or some crazy outta whack expectation....no reason we shouldn't be able to put 36-39 attempts a game. not asking the poor or meh shooters to put up a ton of them either...more asking the actual plus shooters(Zach, Coby, Pat) get to bump up their attempts
Ok so you're going off a relatively down year...even with that down year, he still has been a better shooter than Dame Lillard who is someone that most ppl want to shoot a large amount of threes
21/22 - 39%
20/21 - 42%
19/20 - 38%
that's a decent sample size that he is an above average 3 point shooter...and he's already been at the 7-8 attempt threshold so i'm saying he should take 1 more three.....OH NO, damn that's a crazy ask
Coby has already been shooting around 5 threes for his whole career at a decent clip...Caruso has been around 3 attempts the last few years too
I'm asking Pat to shoot 2 more which to be honest, he turns down 2 open looks a game as is...asking him to shoot it instead of hesitating shouldn't be a crazy ask
I get what you're trying to say but again i dont think what im proposing is wildly improbable. Some of these guys are already shooting the # of attempts that I think they should take so i'm not even proposing every single player needs to even increase what their attempts have already been
you act like i'm expecting everybody to shoot fucking 40% from 3....get a grip
It's way more improbable to ask players to get to the line more as that is way harder skill that honestly most players do have. Selling fouls is corny as fuck and makes the game hard to watch but it's a legit skill that players aren't just gonna learn overnight. Not to mention a lot of players aren't gonna get the calls that certain players get regularly.
Really, the 19-20 and 20-21 Bulls are an indicator of what I think is possible from Zach.
He shot 8.4 3pa/36. If he does that, I'll be happy. Also, he shot 40% from 3 on those attempts. Those are great numbers.
Everyone doesn't really need to do more. Optimize Zach's shot selection to a place it's already been and replace Ayo with Carter and Coby and we're pretty much there. Everything else is gravy.
I think Lavine is an above average 3 point shooter. And a Coby or Carter 3PA are also higher value shots relative to everything else outside of what DeMar and Zach bring. A Pat 3 is a higher value shot than a Pat long 2. So I think it's a good strategy to try to attempt more 3s.
It's also really easy to implement. Pat doesn't need anyone's cooperation to take a 3 instead of a 2. He just needs to do it. Carter and Coby will undoubtably be taking 3s that Ayo passed up.
I'm of course not opposed to trying to get to the line more, but I think that's a lot harder to game plan. Some guys, like DeMar, are really good at it. Zach is OK at it. Vuc has been allergic to it his whole career, like you point out. I don't think Donovan is going to teach him that trick. Maybe I'm just wrong, but I think everyone should always be trying to draw fouls. It's a given.
I think it is clear from preseason that Dalen Terry is a bust.
I didn't watch the game last night but my view is they need to set up plays for Julien Phillips and just see how he does. Need to see what his strengths and weaknesses are.
Bulls love drafting players to replace 9th, 10th men.
Dalen was a dumb pick. He is basically a shitty version of Troy Brown Jr.
Phillips is just a potential Derrick Jones Jr....
you don't need to be using 1st and high 2nd picks to draft project players like that who at best will be middling bench guys
To your 4th point, they did have that for a while with Lonzo around. I’d love to go back to the Chi Slamma Jamma days.
So the question is why doesn’t Debo get more assists and 3 pointers when he’s clearly capable? Does the coach not ask for these, or does the coach ask but player ignores. In both cases the problem is with the coach!
I think they are trying to change, but also that their instincts will show up when times get tough and they will revert to their old ways. Every team wants to push the tempo more, it rarely lasts. That was the best part about Lonzo as he really could keep it up. Overall, we'll be looking at roughly the same team as last year, somewhere in the top 7-10 in the East. The only difference being I actually see management making big changes this time around if we don't find any success this season.
Not sure I necessarily see management making big changes this time around if this team doesn't find success this season (they just re-signed Vooch for three years and haven't been quiet about their desire to re-sign DeMar), but I do agree that they are at least trying to change how this team operates this season.
I found it interesting that in the first quarter yesterday when they were pushing the ball and launching threes, they easily built up a lead despite not shooting particularly well. But then when the starters came back in in the second quarter, they slowed it down quite a bit and that's when we saw Vooch start to get his coveted touches on offense where he was expected to make plays. Ironically he threw the ball away on two of those possessions. Anyway, their lead quickly disappeared after that.
So it's clear that pushing the ball and taking more threes can be effective. What I'm really curious to see is if the mid-3 stick to that game plan as the season goes on. I'm probably just being cynical, but I won't believe it until I see it.
A few way-too-early observations after yesterday's preseason game:
1. Carter and Craig were excellent additions. Not saying they'll magically make this team a top six seed, but they will legitimately provide in areas the Bulls have been lacking over the last couple of years. And they are both on great contracts, so I'll give AK credit for that. I also think the two of them should start alongside the mid-3.
2. Coby looked really good. He made a couple poor passes, but the two that I remember were booth good looks, he just made the pass a touch too late. Hopefully as he gets more comfortable, those decisions will start coming a tad sooner and not result in turnovers.
3. Pat was also solid. I'll admit, my hopes are raised for Pat this season and I'm ready to be disappointed. Some of his quotes over the past week or so have given me hope. He has seemed much more confident and even willing to say he wants the ball in his hands. That's not something we would have heard last year. Dude still needs to rebound though. He can't be grabbing two or three rebounds a game.
4. Dalen Terry is not long for the NBA. It would behoove the Bulls to trade him for whatever they can as soon as possible. I like his aggression but he just seems lost.
I agree with you on Carter and Craig being nice bench guys. When I say they should start, I don't mean because I think they're starting level players in the NBA. I mean that this team is so poorly constructed that they make the most sense starting alongside the mid-3.
yeah what little I saw of the game was Dalen Terry airballing a layup to himself. Bulls still could decline his option for 2024-25, though it's so cheap that may make him less tradeable
on Pat, I was gonna joke that this is literally what we heard last year, but looking back he wasn't giving too much 'confidence' quotes himself but it was others: https://www.bleachernation.com/bulls/2022/10/13/will-the-patrick-williams-we-saw-in-the-preseason-finale-stick-around/
Yeah, I don't care what others say. We need him to show some confidence and selfishness.
That's the problem with this team, though: they have 3 players who all think of themselves as number 1 options and are all veterans.
Williams was a sixth man on his college team. He clearly is a player who is happy/open/okay with taking a backseat for the "good of the team" and probably needs to be forced to take a lead. I don't care what coaches or advisors or fans tell him, that seems mighty tough for a player/person with his personality to do with guys like DeRozan, LaVine, and Vucevic all on the team.
Let's not forget that DeRozan has felt slighted in his career and may finally feel vindicated as an MVP-level player for more than half a season his first year with the Bulls. LaVine also felt slighted as also-ran and behind Wiggins and Towns and now feels justified in his max contract. And Vucevic just spent a whole week talking about how he needs the ball so much more.
I don't know how a young player asserts themself in that environment.
If you think you have a big offensive three and they do score 70 ppg but have never had effective complementary players around them then sure why not put your next two best offensive players next to them and ask them to do what they do NOT do well while removing their opportunity to do what they DO do well. In other words start Carter and Craig with the half court iso heavy group and build a second team built around downhill play and defense with Pat and Coby counted on to score. Pretty obvious way to maximize THIS particular roster but Billy won't do it because PLAYERS....
Fair point but keep in mind, coaches try wonky lineups in the preseason.
Just some of my own observations from the first preseason game:
- there was a conscious effort for the Bulls pg to head the break, and this was done by guys sort of waiting for Coby to cross half court before actually sprinting down for the half court sets. That's actually kind of cool. It gives Coby a chance to cause some mayem if the defense is waiting for their assignments to come down and potentially get a decent look from midrange in space, and also gives guys like lavine a chance to score in "transition" off a quick pass.
- pat Williams took some aggressive (for him) shots. Keep it up I guess? His defense looked good though. Probably not a star but if he can be a two way switchable pf that's valuable to have.
- I've never been high on terry and remain meh on him. Ditto for Julian Phillips. I truly have no clue what the two bring to the team other than youth.
- vuc just sticks out as unnecessary. What is he providing that another big couldn't. Maybe Milwaukee is a bad match up (which doesn't bode well as you need to go through them if u want success) but the fact that the bulls don't call any plays outside of the short rolls for Vuc just to me diminishes his value. Like Billy's answer to vuc' s concerns was "fine - instead of popping out for last minute 3s, fade into last minute midrange shots".
"I've never been high on terry and remain meh on him. Ditto for Julian Phillips. I truly have no clue what the two bring to the team other than youth."
The real indictment here is that Terry and Phillips look practically interchangeable, except Terry was a top 20 pick and Phillips was a second round pick. What the actual fuck did AKME think they were doing picking him 18th?
At least Phillips has crazy athleticism to rely on. He could at least turn into a solid 3 and D forward. What is Terry supposed to become?
supposed to supply playmaking and defense at the wing, problem is he can't dribble or shoot so it's hard to 'make plays', and he's pretty slight and young to be good at defense yet
Yeah, Philipps at least I can see the upside. Terry?
He's got the "dog in him" whatever the fuck that means
I don't think that applies here, Terry is kind of a loveable goofball (which is fine, if he was better)
That draft was so annoying. I wanted Eason so bad and he went one pick before ADHD Chandler Hutchinson. What is with the Bulls and overdrafting marginal wings that could have easily been picked in the 2nd round(Tony Snell, Hutchinson)?
I'd trade Dalen for a 2nd yesterday...not sure what they saw in dude besides the mirage of playmaking.
It stunk because there were so many smart people talking about how the Bulls backed themselves into a corner and HAD to re-sign Vucevic.
Yes, they should have traded Vucevic so they weren't in that position. But, even so, they should have let him leave and a) tampered with Naz Reid to let him know they were interested in giving him a starting spot or b) just kept the space open and looked to trade DeRozan and/or LaVine and rebuild.
Soooooo many people fell into the sunk-cost fallacy with Vuc. Terrible.
I get free agency is a 2 (or more?) way street so even if they tampered I'm not sure if Naz Reid would be game in a small market like Chicago. I think letting Vuc walk for nothing is worse than what we have. Vuc doesn't actively suck, he's just not...important. And I feel like this can't be a shock. Billy has an offensively versatile center and is like "I'm just gnna have you set screens and take jumpers every now and then". If that was all billy needed from the center position he should have been traded whenever possible and replaced with literally any big who could hit 15 footers. By signing him you at least have a trade asset. Bulls were going to be over the cap so it's not like they could have used the money elsewhere. So I think resigning him was more the lesser of two evils... Because the bulls didn't act when they should have. It's just upsetting that they weren't proactive in trading him when he had value as an expiring deal.
I don't get the sarcasm (I'm hoping?) with the small market of Chicago. He's behind two All Star centers or he could have been starting in Chicago for possibly more money. I don't think it's a hard decision for him, but who knows.
And saying letting him walk is worse is just short-term thinking. Is this year's team worse? Probably. But is it better for the beyond this one season? Yes. Definitely. But that's the Bulls (and Bulls fans and writers it seems) - just thinking one step ahead and not further. And even saying this season would be worse, I'm not convinced. There are tons of young options out there that MIGHT have been better. Unlikely, probably, but not definitely.
With the way salaries are going and how the cap is projected to go, I don’t think the Bulls will be that hamstrung with the Vooch deal. But I agree, I’d also rather have let him go.
Yes, and no. Hamstrung to add any players? No, of course not. But hamstrung to add a better center? They won't do that, of course. I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but if they decide to bring back DeRozan (obvioiusly if he agrees), aren't they basically just bringing the same team back again, other than the margins and whatever they decide to do with Williams?
It won't stop THIS FRONT OFFICE from doing anything, but it's still a big chunk of money committed to mediocrity. And it would definitely hamper a good front office.
Right and I mean it just seemed like money no one else was going to offer him nor is going to want to pay him when he's even older and worse.
I like the mid-e idea. I propose the "grande 3" - like from Starbucks. Because it means big in Spanish, but it actually represents mid-range. To me, I like it because it mocks the Bulls for selling something as a Big 3 but really it's mid-tier, and it's all just marketing gobbledygook. Which, yeah, is the ethos of the Bulls.
We already know what we have in the Big Three, but it's way too early to make any pronoouncements about the new minor pieces that will surround them. But having said that, a few observations:
1. Re Coby at PG, nah, I don't believe it. Hope I'm wrong but it just really isn't in his DNA to set up shots for others. He's a scoring machine and, per some of his comments quoted during the broadcast, would like to become like High School Coby or College Coby, filling up the stat sheet and shoot-shoot-shooting.
2. This three-point specialist from Turkey, Bitim, I mean hmm, might they have something there? No miracle, mind you, but a reliable 40+ percent three-point shooter who can also help space the floor?
3. I am about done waiting for Dalen Terry. He seems to have incredible talent but plays out of control and the game seems way too fast for him. Mistakes abound. Too bad, had high hopes for the guy. And I see no evidence that his teammates trust him, either. He gets the ball on his own and shoots, it isn't passed to him often.
3. Sanogo is intriguing. What an immovable pick he sets, eh? Good rebounding and did a lot on the floor that raises hopes, but he is very, very rough. Worst case is he becomes another Felicio. Best case is a junior Drummond-lite.
4. Considering all the accolades re his off-season achievements in other competitive venues, is there anything to be excited about in Carlique Jones? Let me know when you know.
5. Taylor, Jackson and Lewis were good in a try-hard way. We'll see.
6. Jevon Carter as a big off-season acquisition. Oh boy, thanks, AK.
My thoughts as the regular season approaches:
1) The best way to describe bringing back Vuc would be….comically pointless. He and the trade that was made to acquire him have essentially become the faces of this mediocre era, which is why giving him a new contract was so laughable. Any smart GM would have looked at the situation last year and said “At the very least, we have to move on from Vuc.” Instead, AK said “At the very least, we have to bring back Vuc.” And to anyone covering the Bulls who has wondered if the team should be run through Vuc more…stop it. Yes, he’s a center. Yes, he can pass a bit. Yes, he can shoot a bit. No, these things do not make him a poor man’s Jokic. They make him a poor man’s all-star reserve. The fact that we might waste FIVE AND A HALF YEARS watching him play in a Bulls uniform is unforgivable.
2) Bitim’s shot alone should result in him getting more NBA minutes than Terry.
3) The continuous improvement of Coby has been encouraging to see. He looks like a legit weapon on offense and competent on defense. If he were to come off the bench, I actually think he has “sixth man of the year” potential. He also might become a solid starter this year, which is great to see.
4) This is Zach’s seventh year on the team. Jimmy was here for six years. Let that fact sink in. We’ve won one playoff game since that trade. Can we fire Gar Forman again?
5) Unless Coby or Pat makes a big leap, this team has a clear ceiling. Carter and Craig raise the floor. I see this team winning around 44 games.
Pointless comment, but I'm going to be using "Mid 3" whenever I can forcibly wedge it into a conversation.
Would blazers take Ball, DeRozan and their pick back for Grant and brogdon? Trade couldn’t happen until Jan15. Would Bulls be better off? It would stick us with Grant’s contract who is another ‘mid’ but a better 3 and D player.
I also like Debo for Suggs, Isaac, and the 2025 FRP from Denver. Orlando probably doesn’t do this, but Isaac will dominate defensively if he stays healthy. He’s the kind of shot blocking PF we need next to Vuc.
Maybe we do a Debo deal with Knicks that includes Fournier and a FRP, and we route both to ORL for Isaac?
Portland would want their pick back because the constraints on it make it difficult to trade future picks. They wouldn’t be getting win now players. Ball won’t play this year and Debo could be flipped for more assets (like clipper pick + expirings) or kept to nurture the youngsters. The trade would help their tanking and giving playing time to youth, which is why they should be doing now. And it improves their future financial flexibility. The question is are Brogdon + long-term Grant > Debo for Bulls.
yeah I wish this site had some kind of fanposts function so I could move these ideas. Maybe BaB phpbb forum next.
Yeah, ramblings about horse dewormer and swimming though pig shit are why people come to this site. Move all the Bulls fan posts off please.
With or without the pick, the deal would save Portland $150M. Not sure how much Grant is worth to other teams with $160M due thru 2028. Brogdon for Ball would just be to free up more time for Scoot and for tanking. Sad that pick was the “1st rounder” for dumping future all-star Lauri.
I swear to god I can write a coach’s response to media questions in the preseason in my sleep.
“We’re going to play with a sense of urgency and tempo”
“We’ve been trying out a few new wrinkles to the offense”
“We’re going to be mentally tougher on defense”
Game two was a bit deceptive. Chicago shot 38 threes, but only 29 or 30 of those came in regulation.
Vooch was thoroughly outplayed for the second straight game by his opponent. To be fair, this time it was Jokic. He now has five turnovers to three assists in preseason. Not great for the Point-Vooch crowd.
Pat forgot to show up, but had a great +/-. Shows how deceptive that can be in isolation.
Coby needs to get more shots up. This is why I don't want him starting. There's just not enough to go around playing alongside the mid-3.
Man am I sure glad we didn’t draft Walker Kessler last year.
It was soooo much more logical for AK to choose the path of Terry and Drummond, who shot a combined 6-21 last night.
Why draft for a position of need when you can draft a project with "upside" despite being known as an organization that doesn't develop players??
Sadly that's very accurate.
Coby White really is starting to look like a PG. Good passing skills. Shot looks good. Looks like maybe Donovan is finally giving him a bit more free reign.
Eh he had free reign last night because the mid-3 weren't playing. He's still not going to get the ball enough when playing alongside those guys.
what was the logic behind that anyway? usually there are more minutes as the preseason goes on, not random benchings lol.
I think KC said Billy wanted to give them a game off and this game made the most sense since it was an away game. The final two games are home games, so they gotta trot out there to keep the home crowd happy.
I see. Honestly I was surprised for that reason that the Bucks guys didn't play in the opener since they were at home.
Also I mean Den is a tough location. Still think it's a bit weird to not play at all. It's not like it was a real tight schedule.
Well, my guess is the Bucks owner isn't putting as much pressure on his team to get as many butts in seats as possible during preseason as Jerry is...
Fair and I only really say it because they had a big new acquisition. If they hadn't made the trade, I definitely wouldn't wonder lol.
The Bulls have shot 29 threes (in regulation) each of the last two games. Glad to see that the "shoot more threes" mantra didn't even make it out of preseason.
Completely agree.
I'm not sure I agree with that
Last year, the average team took 33.3 3PAs per 36. The Bulls took 28.9
So really, we need to take about 4.3 more per 36 minutes to get to league average. I don't think this is unreasonable at all.
1. Zach shot about 7.1 per 36. This, by itself isn't "bad", but it's not what it should be for the best shooter on the team. For reference: Curry, Klay, Lillard are all >11. Mitchell >9, Tatum >9, Luka and several other players who are nowhere near as good shooters are over 8.
So, I would want Zach shooting ~ 9 three pointers a game.
That gets us 2.
2. Last year Ayo played ~ 2100 minutes and shot 3.2 3pa per 36. If we make the assumption that he only plays a much smaller role... we give 400 minutes of his to Coby (7.2 3pa) and 900 to Carter (6.8 3pa) then we end up with 6.5 per 36.
That gets us another 3.3.
3. If Pat plays about the same minutes but can get convert about 1 more attempt into a 3 instead of a 2, that'll get us another one. I'll just call it +0.7 3pa per 36 to make it a nice round number.
That in total would give us an additional 6 3pa per 36 minutes (35.9 for the team) which would rank us 8th last year.
I don't think that's asking for too much.
Zach is an above average 3 point shooter...in no way is he average or below....the other two are
here's my breakdown of where the team should be at with 3 pt attempts...i dont think this would be asking too much or some crazy outta whack expectation....no reason we shouldn't be able to put 36-39 attempts a game. not asking the poor or meh shooters to put up a ton of them either...more asking the actual plus shooters(Zach, Coby, Pat) get to bump up their attempts
Zach - 9
DeMar - 3
Vuc - 4
Pat - 5
Coby - 6
Jevon - 3/4
Torrey - 3
Caruso - 3
Ayo-3
Ok so you're going off a relatively down year...even with that down year, he still has been a better shooter than Dame Lillard who is someone that most ppl want to shoot a large amount of threes
21/22 - 39%
20/21 - 42%
19/20 - 38%
that's a decent sample size that he is an above average 3 point shooter...and he's already been at the 7-8 attempt threshold so i'm saying he should take 1 more three.....OH NO, damn that's a crazy ask
Coby has already been shooting around 5 threes for his whole career at a decent clip...Caruso has been around 3 attempts the last few years too
I'm asking Pat to shoot 2 more which to be honest, he turns down 2 open looks a game as is...asking him to shoot it instead of hesitating shouldn't be a crazy ask
I get what you're trying to say but again i dont think what im proposing is wildly improbable. Some of these guys are already shooting the # of attempts that I think they should take so i'm not even proposing every single player needs to even increase what their attempts have already been
you act like i'm expecting everybody to shoot fucking 40% from 3....get a grip
It's way more improbable to ask players to get to the line more as that is way harder skill that honestly most players do have. Selling fouls is corny as fuck and makes the game hard to watch but it's a legit skill that players aren't just gonna learn overnight. Not to mention a lot of players aren't gonna get the calls that certain players get regularly.
Really, the 19-20 and 20-21 Bulls are an indicator of what I think is possible from Zach.
He shot 8.4 3pa/36. If he does that, I'll be happy. Also, he shot 40% from 3 on those attempts. Those are great numbers.
Everyone doesn't really need to do more. Optimize Zach's shot selection to a place it's already been and replace Ayo with Carter and Coby and we're pretty much there. Everything else is gravy.
I think Lavine is an above average 3 point shooter. And a Coby or Carter 3PA are also higher value shots relative to everything else outside of what DeMar and Zach bring. A Pat 3 is a higher value shot than a Pat long 2. So I think it's a good strategy to try to attempt more 3s.
It's also really easy to implement. Pat doesn't need anyone's cooperation to take a 3 instead of a 2. He just needs to do it. Carter and Coby will undoubtably be taking 3s that Ayo passed up.
I'm of course not opposed to trying to get to the line more, but I think that's a lot harder to game plan. Some guys, like DeMar, are really good at it. Zach is OK at it. Vuc has been allergic to it his whole career, like you point out. I don't think Donovan is going to teach him that trick. Maybe I'm just wrong, but I think everyone should always be trying to draw fouls. It's a given.