I think they are trying to change, but also that their instincts will show up when times get tough and they will revert to their old ways. Every team wants to push the tempo more, it rarely lasts. That was the best part about Lonzo as he really could keep it up. Overall, we'll be looking at roughly the same team as last year, somewhere in the top 7-10 in the East. The only difference being I actually see management making big changes this time around if we don't find any success this season.
Not sure I necessarily see management making big changes this time around if this team doesn't find success this season (they just re-signed Vooch for three years and haven't been quiet about their desire to re-sign DeMar), but I do agree that they are at least trying to change how this team operates this season.
I found it interesting that in the first quarter yesterday when they were pushing the ball and launching threes, they easily built up a lead despite not shooting particularly well. But then when the starters came back in in the second quarter, they slowed it down quite a bit and that's when we saw Vooch start to get his coveted touches on offense where he was expected to make plays. Ironically he threw the ball away on two of those possessions. Anyway, their lead quickly disappeared after that.
So it's clear that pushing the ball and taking more threes can be effective. What I'm really curious to see is if the mid-3 stick to that game plan as the season goes on. I'm probably just being cynical, but I won't believe it until I see it.
A few way-too-early observations after yesterday's preseason game:
1. Carter and Craig were excellent additions. Not saying they'll magically make this team a top six seed, but they will legitimately provide in areas the Bulls have been lacking over the last couple of years. And they are both on great contracts, so I'll give AK credit for that. I also think the two of them should start alongside the mid-3.
2. Coby looked really good. He made a couple poor passes, but the two that I remember were booth good looks, he just made the pass a touch too late. Hopefully as he gets more comfortable, those decisions will start coming a tad sooner and not result in turnovers.
3. Pat was also solid. I'll admit, my hopes are raised for Pat this season and I'm ready to be disappointed. Some of his quotes over the past week or so have given me hope. He has seemed much more confident and even willing to say he wants the ball in his hands. That's not something we would have heard last year. Dude still needs to rebound though. He can't be grabbing two or three rebounds a game.
4. Dalen Terry is not long for the NBA. It would behoove the Bulls to trade him for whatever they can as soon as possible. I like his aggression but he just seems lost.
yeah what little I saw of the game was Dalen Terry airballing a layup to himself. Bulls still could decline his option for 2024-25, though it's so cheap that may make him less tradeable
That's the problem with this team, though: they have 3 players who all think of themselves as number 1 options and are all veterans.
Williams was a sixth man on his college team. He clearly is a player who is happy/open/okay with taking a backseat for the "good of the team" and probably needs to be forced to take a lead. I don't care what coaches or advisors or fans tell him, that seems mighty tough for a player/person with his personality to do with guys like DeRozan, LaVine, and Vucevic all on the team.
Let's not forget that DeRozan has felt slighted in his career and may finally feel vindicated as an MVP-level player for more than half a season his first year with the Bulls. LaVine also felt slighted as also-ran and behind Wiggins and Towns and now feels justified in his max contract. And Vucevic just spent a whole week talking about how he needs the ball so much more.
I don't know how a young player asserts themself in that environment.
Pat is the 5th starter on a team where 3 guys take almost all available shots. If Coby is starting, he's going to get his, and increased pace will likely filter to the players who already take a lot of them. Pat at best is going to be a low-scoring, high-efficiency 5th option. It's not a representation of who he is right now, it's a practicality of having so many volume shooters on the floor.
I'm kind of surprised that you're saying Coby and Pat look good but we should start Carter and Craig. For the record, I like both of those guys. Also for the record, I like them because they're 8th man role players. It's not different than Caruso is and Ayo projects to be pretty much the same. The Bulls have bunched up like 4 or 5 guys who are "nice bench players" which would be amazing if our starters where the kind of guys starting for Phoenix and Milwaukee. They're not, though. Several of them are going to start with 3 guys who are going to get their shots and do fuck all in any other respect.
I agree with you on Carter and Craig being nice bench guys. When I say they should start, I don't mean because I think they're starting level players in the NBA. I mean that this team is so poorly constructed that they make the most sense starting alongside the mid-3.
If you think you have a big offensive three and they do score 70 ppg but have never had effective complementary players around them then sure why not put your next two best offensive players next to them and ask them to do what they do NOT do well while removing their opportunity to do what they DO do well. In other words start Carter and Craig with the half court iso heavy group and build a second team built around downhill play and defense with Pat and Coby counted on to score. Pretty obvious way to maximize THIS particular roster but Billy won't do it because PLAYERS....
Just some of my own observations from the first preseason game:
- there was a conscious effort for the Bulls pg to head the break, and this was done by guys sort of waiting for Coby to cross half court before actually sprinting down for the half court sets. That's actually kind of cool. It gives Coby a chance to cause some mayem if the defense is waiting for their assignments to come down and potentially get a decent look from midrange in space, and also gives guys like lavine a chance to score in "transition" off a quick pass.
- pat Williams took some aggressive (for him) shots. Keep it up I guess? His defense looked good though. Probably not a star but if he can be a two way switchable pf that's valuable to have.
- I've never been high on terry and remain meh on him. Ditto for Julian Phillips. I truly have no clue what the two bring to the team other than youth.
- vuc just sticks out as unnecessary. What is he providing that another big couldn't. Maybe Milwaukee is a bad match up (which doesn't bode well as you need to go through them if u want success) but the fact that the bulls don't call any plays outside of the short rolls for Vuc just to me diminishes his value. Like Billy's answer to vuc' s concerns was "fine - instead of popping out for last minute 3s, fade into last minute midrange shots".
"I've never been high on terry and remain meh on him. Ditto for Julian Phillips. I truly have no clue what the two bring to the team other than youth."
The real indictment here is that Terry and Phillips look practically interchangeable, except Terry was a top 20 pick and Phillips was a second round pick. What the actual fuck did AKME think they were doing picking him 18th?
At least Phillips has crazy athleticism to rely on. He could at least turn into a solid 3 and D forward. What is Terry supposed to become?
supposed to supply playmaking and defense at the wing, problem is he can't dribble or shoot so it's hard to 'make plays', and he's pretty slight and young to be good at defense yet
That draft was so annoying. I wanted Eason so bad and he went one pick before ADHD Chandler Hutchinson. What is with the Bulls and overdrafting marginal wings that could have easily been picked in the 2nd round(Tony Snell, Hutchinson)?
I'd trade Dalen for a 2nd yesterday...not sure what they saw in dude besides the mirage of playmaking.
It stunk because there were so many smart people talking about how the Bulls backed themselves into a corner and HAD to re-sign Vucevic.
Yes, they should have traded Vucevic so they weren't in that position. But, even so, they should have let him leave and a) tampered with Naz Reid to let him know they were interested in giving him a starting spot or b) just kept the space open and looked to trade DeRozan and/or LaVine and rebuild.
Soooooo many people fell into the sunk-cost fallacy with Vuc. Terrible.
I get free agency is a 2 (or more?) way street so even if they tampered I'm not sure if Naz Reid would be game in a small market like Chicago. I think letting Vuc walk for nothing is worse than what we have. Vuc doesn't actively suck, he's just not...important. And I feel like this can't be a shock. Billy has an offensively versatile center and is like "I'm just gnna have you set screens and take jumpers every now and then". If that was all billy needed from the center position he should have been traded whenever possible and replaced with literally any big who could hit 15 footers. By signing him you at least have a trade asset. Bulls were going to be over the cap so it's not like they could have used the money elsewhere. So I think resigning him was more the lesser of two evils... Because the bulls didn't act when they should have. It's just upsetting that they weren't proactive in trading him when he had value as an expiring deal.
I don't get the sarcasm (I'm hoping?) with the small market of Chicago. He's behind two All Star centers or he could have been starting in Chicago for possibly more money. I don't think it's a hard decision for him, but who knows.
And saying letting him walk is worse is just short-term thinking. Is this year's team worse? Probably. But is it better for the beyond this one season? Yes. Definitely. But that's the Bulls (and Bulls fans and writers it seems) - just thinking one step ahead and not further. And even saying this season would be worse, I'm not convinced. There are tons of young options out there that MIGHT have been better. Unlikely, probably, but not definitely.
With the way salaries are going and how the cap is projected to go, I don’t think the Bulls will be that hamstrung with the Vooch deal. But I agree, I’d also rather have let him go.
Yes, and no. Hamstrung to add any players? No, of course not. But hamstrung to add a better center? They won't do that, of course. I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but if they decide to bring back DeRozan (obvioiusly if he agrees), aren't they basically just bringing the same team back again, other than the margins and whatever they decide to do with Williams?
It won't stop THIS FRONT OFFICE from doing anything, but it's still a big chunk of money committed to mediocrity. And it would definitely hamper a good front office.
Right? It's basically the radical notion that you should pursue and retain players that you want and, maybe, like.
Main reason I don't like it is starting Vucevic has an influence on what other players get court time, not because they play the same position but to make up for his flaws and the significant problems he brings. I'm not sure what the opposite of "versatile" is but whatever it is... that's Vucevic's game. You can have more Vucevic (Orlando Vucevic) or less Vucevic (Chicago Vucevic) but it's just more or less Vucevic — he plays one way and you have to plan the rest of your rotation to account for it.
They could have spent about $8 million total, max, to acquire Christian Wood and Jaxson Hayes for a single season if people were worried about it. It's exactly what the Lakers did, although actually being a team players want to go to, they got them both for close to the minimum.
I like the mid-e idea. I propose the "grande 3" - like from Starbucks. Because it means big in Spanish, but it actually represents mid-range. To me, I like it because it mocks the Bulls for selling something as a Big 3 but really it's mid-tier, and it's all just marketing gobbledygook. Which, yeah, is the ethos of the Bulls.
We already know what we have in the Big Three, but it's way too early to make any pronoouncements about the new minor pieces that will surround them. But having said that, a few observations:
1. Re Coby at PG, nah, I don't believe it. Hope I'm wrong but it just really isn't in his DNA to set up shots for others. He's a scoring machine and, per some of his comments quoted during the broadcast, would like to become like High School Coby or College Coby, filling up the stat sheet and shoot-shoot-shooting.
2. This three-point specialist from Turkey, Bitim, I mean hmm, might they have something there? No miracle, mind you, but a reliable 40+ percent three-point shooter who can also help space the floor?
3. I am about done waiting for Dalen Terry. He seems to have incredible talent but plays out of control and the game seems way too fast for him. Mistakes abound. Too bad, had high hopes for the guy. And I see no evidence that his teammates trust him, either. He gets the ball on his own and shoots, it isn't passed to him often.
3. Sanogo is intriguing. What an immovable pick he sets, eh? Good rebounding and did a lot on the floor that raises hopes, but he is very, very rough. Worst case is he becomes another Felicio. Best case is a junior Drummond-lite.
4. Considering all the accolades re his off-season achievements in other competitive venues, is there anything to be excited about in Carlique Jones? Let me know when you know.
5. Taylor, Jackson and Lewis were good in a try-hard way. We'll see.
6. Jevon Carter as a big off-season acquisition. Oh boy, thanks, AK.
1) The best way to describe bringing back Vuc would be….comically pointless. He and the trade that was made to acquire him have essentially become the faces of this mediocre era, which is why giving him a new contract was so laughable. Any smart GM would have looked at the situation last year and said “At the very least, we have to move on from Vuc.” Instead, AK said “At the very least, we have to bring back Vuc.” And to anyone covering the Bulls who has wondered if the team should be run through Vuc more…stop it. Yes, he’s a center. Yes, he can pass a bit. Yes, he can shoot a bit. No, these things do not make him a poor man’s Jokic. They make him a poor man’s all-star reserve. The fact that we might waste FIVE AND A HALF YEARS watching him play in a Bulls uniform is unforgivable.
2) Bitim’s shot alone should result in him getting more NBA minutes than Terry.
3) The continuous improvement of Coby has been encouraging to see. He looks like a legit weapon on offense and competent on defense. If he were to come off the bench, I actually think he has “sixth man of the year” potential. He also might become a solid starter this year, which is great to see.
4) This is Zach’s seventh year on the team. Jimmy was here for six years. Let that fact sink in. We’ve won one playoff game since that trade. Can we fire Gar Forman again?
5) Unless Coby or Pat makes a big leap, this team has a clear ceiling. Carter and Craig raise the floor. I see this team winning around 44 games.
Would blazers take Ball, DeRozan and their pick back for Grant and brogdon? Trade couldn’t happen until Jan15. Would Bulls be better off? It would stick us with Grant’s contract who is another ‘mid’ but a better 3 and D player.
I also like Debo for Suggs, Isaac, and the 2025 FRP from Denver. Orlando probably doesn’t do this, but Isaac will dominate defensively if he stays healthy. He’s the kind of shot blocking PF we need next to Vuc.
Maybe we do a Debo deal with Knicks that includes Fournier and a FRP, and we route both to ORL for Isaac?
No. Portland "taking their pick back" is delusional if you think that's some kind of sweetener for taking back two players counter-productive to what they're trying to do.
If Portland remains bad, that 1st never conveys, it becomes a 2nd round pick. So why would they take the pick back? Why would they acquire win-now players so they get good enough so it conveys as a 1st?
For trade purposes, that pick is a second rounder with a very small chance it becomes a middle first.
It's just another deal where Karnisovas got hosed, only this time he traded a future all-star for it.
Portland would want their pick back because the constraints on it make it difficult to trade future picks. They wouldn’t be getting win now players. Ball won’t play this year and Debo could be flipped for more assets (like clipper pick + expirings) or kept to nurture the youngsters. The trade would help their tanking and giving playing time to youth, which is why they should be doing now. And it improves their future financial flexibility. The question is are Brogdon + long-term Grant > Debo for Bulls.
First, Portland has already acquired multiple picks in the years in question and will use the players you'd like them to hand over to acquire more. Secondly, picks are traded with language that reads "to convey if it doesn't convey to Chicago, etc." or "to convey one year after pick conveys to Chicago, etc." all the time. It's not a big deal. This is a message board obsession with close to zero real world relevance. If you said "Hey, would you like those rights back?" they would say yeah, but if you ask them "Would you also give up two players you could likely get a couple of picks for in exchange?" they'd laugh at you.
Doesn't really bother me what people waste their time with - there are other message boards where users advise each other on how to squirt horse dewormer in their granny's socks if she starts coughing - but it's out of touch with reality to pretend this is some valuable trade chip. It's a 2nd rounder with a coupon attached that became far less interesting when they traded Lilliard.
With or without the pick, the deal would save Portland $150M. Not sure how much Grant is worth to other teams with $160M due thru 2028. Brogdon for Ball would just be to free up more time for Scoot and for tanking. Sad that pick was the “1st rounder” for dumping future all-star Lauri.
> Brogdon for Ball would just be to free up more time for Scoot and for tanking.
So... they'll make this trade with the goal of intentionally making their team worse... but also because they're sweating a pick they won't give up unless they make the playoffs.
1. Popovich somehow got DeMar DeRozan to pass the ball more than at any point in his career during DeMar's contract year. That says a lot about DeMar but DeMar himself has always praised Popovich for elevating his game. In that specific case, it does come down to who is coaching and Billy isn't Pop. I also have to admit that the 2021 Spurs DeRozan would be the best point guard on our roster, so it's worth noting that Karnisovas isn't Popovich either.
So DeMar isn't necessarily going to chuck in his contract year... but he must be aware this will be the last big contract of his career. Maybe history repeats but without Popovich, probably not: I imagine he's going to average close to his career high of 20 shots a game (obviously somewhat misleading given how often he draws fouls).
2. The Bulls could play meaningfully faster if they crashed the boards but their defense is predicated on Vucevic cleaning up the defensive glass. If he can hit the outlet pass with any great frequency or showed that kind of court vision he's never shown it in his career. Without that they're a team of plodders and there's really no getting around that.
3. Taking the over or under on 37 to 40 wins is just the worst possible bet I can think of. It's not that hard for a team of this caliber to fluctuate that much, it doesn't reflect improvement or decline, it's just shear luck in playing 10 other teams that aren't really good. The Bulls won a game late last year against Dallas that was the closest thing to a forfeit I've seen since Kevin McHale told Mark Madsen to take every shot and intentionally miss them so they could save a draft pick on the last day of the season (quite a boxscore: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200604190MIN.html and here's the backstory of how a guy who never took 3s took like 7 in a few minutes: https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-nba-coast-to-coast-20140323-story.html )
4. It's kind of depressing because I think you could build a really fun and weird team around DeMar and his throwback game, and it's obvious how you'd do it, and the Bulls have done almost none of it. Like if DeMar had a lower FG% but made 2.5 3s a game, he would be massively overpaid. Instead because he is incredibly efficient but doesn't do that thing, so a lot of teams think he won't fit. You could have used that to cleanse the old ghosts and put together a fun team for the new admin, but the only guy the team has added that really makes a lot of sense and is valuable is Caruso.
5. Like Satoransky before him, you guys are going to hate Carter when he averages 8 points and 3 assists and you're going to call for Billy to be fired or something silly like that when Craig disappears from the rotation for awhile. They're both paid to be decent backups (Craig paid to basically be a roster-filler), that's what I expect from them.
6. There's a trade market for anyone, but not necessarily a good one, and there probably isn't a good one for DeMar. The good teams (and up to 1/3rd of the league) have practically no tradeable draft assets. The offers for DeMar mid-season will probably be something like a contract you really don't want and a player that might be vaguely interesting - like a guy who hasn't figured out his jump shot or a former 1st whose team is embarrassed they really don't want to extend.
So the question is why doesn’t Debo get more assists and 3 pointers when he’s clearly capable? Does the coach not ask for these, or does the coach ask but player ignores. In both cases the problem is with the coach!
Three pointers are a totally different story, he perfected his current shot profile under Pop — he's taking *more* here than he did in San Antonio. I'm not even sure you want "point DeMar" (though it's probably better than anything else we have), it was more an attempt to figure out how he's going to play entering a contract year at age 34. Put $30 million on a table across a lake of pig shit and tell me to go get and I'm probably diving head first and doing the backstroke. It's a lot of money to say to someone "Ok be less selfish and make sure Vucevic gets more touches."
Though I don't think it's a surprise to anyone, including Billy, that Billy is not as good a coach as Popovich.
Game two was a bit deceptive. Chicago shot 38 threes, but only 29 or 30 of those came in regulation.
Vooch was thoroughly outplayed for the second straight game by his opponent. To be fair, this time it was Jokic. He now has five turnovers to three assists in preseason. Not great for the Point-Vooch crowd.
Pat forgot to show up, but had a great +/-. Shows how deceptive that can be in isolation.
Coby needs to get more shots up. This is why I don't want him starting. There's just not enough to go around playing alongside the mid-3.
It's funny how The Org used to focus disproportionately on "NBA ready" guys, which meant "the oldest players in the draft with no athletic ability and little upside or they would have been drafted when they were freshmen" and now they're just like "a 6'8" guy who can't shoot? Sounds like LEBRON JAMES TO ME ."
I think it is clear from preseason that Dalen Terry is a bust.
I didn't watch the game last night but my view is they need to set up plays for Julien Phillips and just see how he does. Need to see what his strengths and weaknesses are.
Coby White really is starting to look like a PG. Good passing skills. Shot looks good. Looks like maybe Donovan is finally giving him a bit more free reign.
I think KC said Billy wanted to give them a game off and this game made the most sense since it was an away game. The final two games are home games, so they gotta trot out there to keep the home crowd happy.
Every team in the league is doing this, even with rookies and young players who played far more minutes in the Summer League against inferior competition. It's awful to watch, I actually feel bad for people who have to do it.
I think they are trying to change, but also that their instincts will show up when times get tough and they will revert to their old ways. Every team wants to push the tempo more, it rarely lasts. That was the best part about Lonzo as he really could keep it up. Overall, we'll be looking at roughly the same team as last year, somewhere in the top 7-10 in the East. The only difference being I actually see management making big changes this time around if we don't find any success this season.
Not sure I necessarily see management making big changes this time around if this team doesn't find success this season (they just re-signed Vooch for three years and haven't been quiet about their desire to re-sign DeMar), but I do agree that they are at least trying to change how this team operates this season.
I found it interesting that in the first quarter yesterday when they were pushing the ball and launching threes, they easily built up a lead despite not shooting particularly well. But then when the starters came back in in the second quarter, they slowed it down quite a bit and that's when we saw Vooch start to get his coveted touches on offense where he was expected to make plays. Ironically he threw the ball away on two of those possessions. Anyway, their lead quickly disappeared after that.
So it's clear that pushing the ball and taking more threes can be effective. What I'm really curious to see is if the mid-3 stick to that game plan as the season goes on. I'm probably just being cynical, but I won't believe it until I see it.
A few way-too-early observations after yesterday's preseason game:
1. Carter and Craig were excellent additions. Not saying they'll magically make this team a top six seed, but they will legitimately provide in areas the Bulls have been lacking over the last couple of years. And they are both on great contracts, so I'll give AK credit for that. I also think the two of them should start alongside the mid-3.
2. Coby looked really good. He made a couple poor passes, but the two that I remember were booth good looks, he just made the pass a touch too late. Hopefully as he gets more comfortable, those decisions will start coming a tad sooner and not result in turnovers.
3. Pat was also solid. I'll admit, my hopes are raised for Pat this season and I'm ready to be disappointed. Some of his quotes over the past week or so have given me hope. He has seemed much more confident and even willing to say he wants the ball in his hands. That's not something we would have heard last year. Dude still needs to rebound though. He can't be grabbing two or three rebounds a game.
4. Dalen Terry is not long for the NBA. It would behoove the Bulls to trade him for whatever they can as soon as possible. I like his aggression but he just seems lost.
yeah what little I saw of the game was Dalen Terry airballing a layup to himself. Bulls still could decline his option for 2024-25, though it's so cheap that may make him less tradeable
on Pat, I was gonna joke that this is literally what we heard last year, but looking back he wasn't giving too much 'confidence' quotes himself but it was others: https://www.bleachernation.com/bulls/2022/10/13/will-the-patrick-williams-we-saw-in-the-preseason-finale-stick-around/
Yeah, I don't care what others say. We need him to show some confidence and selfishness.
That's the problem with this team, though: they have 3 players who all think of themselves as number 1 options and are all veterans.
Williams was a sixth man on his college team. He clearly is a player who is happy/open/okay with taking a backseat for the "good of the team" and probably needs to be forced to take a lead. I don't care what coaches or advisors or fans tell him, that seems mighty tough for a player/person with his personality to do with guys like DeRozan, LaVine, and Vucevic all on the team.
Let's not forget that DeRozan has felt slighted in his career and may finally feel vindicated as an MVP-level player for more than half a season his first year with the Bulls. LaVine also felt slighted as also-ran and behind Wiggins and Towns and now feels justified in his max contract. And Vucevic just spent a whole week talking about how he needs the ball so much more.
I don't know how a young player asserts themself in that environment.
Pat is the 5th starter on a team where 3 guys take almost all available shots. If Coby is starting, he's going to get his, and increased pace will likely filter to the players who already take a lot of them. Pat at best is going to be a low-scoring, high-efficiency 5th option. It's not a representation of who he is right now, it's a practicality of having so many volume shooters on the floor.
I'm kind of surprised that you're saying Coby and Pat look good but we should start Carter and Craig. For the record, I like both of those guys. Also for the record, I like them because they're 8th man role players. It's not different than Caruso is and Ayo projects to be pretty much the same. The Bulls have bunched up like 4 or 5 guys who are "nice bench players" which would be amazing if our starters where the kind of guys starting for Phoenix and Milwaukee. They're not, though. Several of them are going to start with 3 guys who are going to get their shots and do fuck all in any other respect.
I agree with you on Carter and Craig being nice bench guys. When I say they should start, I don't mean because I think they're starting level players in the NBA. I mean that this team is so poorly constructed that they make the most sense starting alongside the mid-3.
If you think you have a big offensive three and they do score 70 ppg but have never had effective complementary players around them then sure why not put your next two best offensive players next to them and ask them to do what they do NOT do well while removing their opportunity to do what they DO do well. In other words start Carter and Craig with the half court iso heavy group and build a second team built around downhill play and defense with Pat and Coby counted on to score. Pretty obvious way to maximize THIS particular roster but Billy won't do it because PLAYERS....
Fair point but keep in mind, coaches try wonky lineups in the preseason.
Just some of my own observations from the first preseason game:
- there was a conscious effort for the Bulls pg to head the break, and this was done by guys sort of waiting for Coby to cross half court before actually sprinting down for the half court sets. That's actually kind of cool. It gives Coby a chance to cause some mayem if the defense is waiting for their assignments to come down and potentially get a decent look from midrange in space, and also gives guys like lavine a chance to score in "transition" off a quick pass.
- pat Williams took some aggressive (for him) shots. Keep it up I guess? His defense looked good though. Probably not a star but if he can be a two way switchable pf that's valuable to have.
- I've never been high on terry and remain meh on him. Ditto for Julian Phillips. I truly have no clue what the two bring to the team other than youth.
- vuc just sticks out as unnecessary. What is he providing that another big couldn't. Maybe Milwaukee is a bad match up (which doesn't bode well as you need to go through them if u want success) but the fact that the bulls don't call any plays outside of the short rolls for Vuc just to me diminishes his value. Like Billy's answer to vuc' s concerns was "fine - instead of popping out for last minute 3s, fade into last minute midrange shots".
"I've never been high on terry and remain meh on him. Ditto for Julian Phillips. I truly have no clue what the two bring to the team other than youth."
The real indictment here is that Terry and Phillips look practically interchangeable, except Terry was a top 20 pick and Phillips was a second round pick. What the actual fuck did AKME think they were doing picking him 18th?
At least Phillips has crazy athleticism to rely on. He could at least turn into a solid 3 and D forward. What is Terry supposed to become?
supposed to supply playmaking and defense at the wing, problem is he can't dribble or shoot so it's hard to 'make plays', and he's pretty slight and young to be good at defense yet
Yeah, Philipps at least I can see the upside. Terry?
He's got the "dog in him" whatever the fuck that means
I don't think that applies here, Terry is kind of a loveable goofball (which is fine, if he was better)
That draft was so annoying. I wanted Eason so bad and he went one pick before ADHD Chandler Hutchinson. What is with the Bulls and overdrafting marginal wings that could have easily been picked in the 2nd round(Tony Snell, Hutchinson)?
I'd trade Dalen for a 2nd yesterday...not sure what they saw in dude besides the mirage of playmaking.
It stunk because there were so many smart people talking about how the Bulls backed themselves into a corner and HAD to re-sign Vucevic.
Yes, they should have traded Vucevic so they weren't in that position. But, even so, they should have let him leave and a) tampered with Naz Reid to let him know they were interested in giving him a starting spot or b) just kept the space open and looked to trade DeRozan and/or LaVine and rebuild.
Soooooo many people fell into the sunk-cost fallacy with Vuc. Terrible.
I get free agency is a 2 (or more?) way street so even if they tampered I'm not sure if Naz Reid would be game in a small market like Chicago. I think letting Vuc walk for nothing is worse than what we have. Vuc doesn't actively suck, he's just not...important. And I feel like this can't be a shock. Billy has an offensively versatile center and is like "I'm just gnna have you set screens and take jumpers every now and then". If that was all billy needed from the center position he should have been traded whenever possible and replaced with literally any big who could hit 15 footers. By signing him you at least have a trade asset. Bulls were going to be over the cap so it's not like they could have used the money elsewhere. So I think resigning him was more the lesser of two evils... Because the bulls didn't act when they should have. It's just upsetting that they weren't proactive in trading him when he had value as an expiring deal.
I don't get the sarcasm (I'm hoping?) with the small market of Chicago. He's behind two All Star centers or he could have been starting in Chicago for possibly more money. I don't think it's a hard decision for him, but who knows.
And saying letting him walk is worse is just short-term thinking. Is this year's team worse? Probably. But is it better for the beyond this one season? Yes. Definitely. But that's the Bulls (and Bulls fans and writers it seems) - just thinking one step ahead and not further. And even saying this season would be worse, I'm not convinced. There are tons of young options out there that MIGHT have been better. Unlikely, probably, but not definitely.
With the way salaries are going and how the cap is projected to go, I don’t think the Bulls will be that hamstrung with the Vooch deal. But I agree, I’d also rather have let him go.
Yes, and no. Hamstrung to add any players? No, of course not. But hamstrung to add a better center? They won't do that, of course. I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but if they decide to bring back DeRozan (obvioiusly if he agrees), aren't they basically just bringing the same team back again, other than the margins and whatever they decide to do with Williams?
It won't stop THIS FRONT OFFICE from doing anything, but it's still a big chunk of money committed to mediocrity. And it would definitely hamper a good front office.
Right? It's basically the radical notion that you should pursue and retain players that you want and, maybe, like.
Main reason I don't like it is starting Vucevic has an influence on what other players get court time, not because they play the same position but to make up for his flaws and the significant problems he brings. I'm not sure what the opposite of "versatile" is but whatever it is... that's Vucevic's game. You can have more Vucevic (Orlando Vucevic) or less Vucevic (Chicago Vucevic) but it's just more or less Vucevic — he plays one way and you have to plan the rest of your rotation to account for it.
Right and I mean it just seemed like money no one else was going to offer him nor is going to want to pay him when he's even older and worse.
They could have spent about $8 million total, max, to acquire Christian Wood and Jaxson Hayes for a single season if people were worried about it. It's exactly what the Lakers did, although actually being a team players want to go to, they got them both for close to the minimum.
I like the mid-e idea. I propose the "grande 3" - like from Starbucks. Because it means big in Spanish, but it actually represents mid-range. To me, I like it because it mocks the Bulls for selling something as a Big 3 but really it's mid-tier, and it's all just marketing gobbledygook. Which, yeah, is the ethos of the Bulls.
We already know what we have in the Big Three, but it's way too early to make any pronoouncements about the new minor pieces that will surround them. But having said that, a few observations:
1. Re Coby at PG, nah, I don't believe it. Hope I'm wrong but it just really isn't in his DNA to set up shots for others. He's a scoring machine and, per some of his comments quoted during the broadcast, would like to become like High School Coby or College Coby, filling up the stat sheet and shoot-shoot-shooting.
2. This three-point specialist from Turkey, Bitim, I mean hmm, might they have something there? No miracle, mind you, but a reliable 40+ percent three-point shooter who can also help space the floor?
3. I am about done waiting for Dalen Terry. He seems to have incredible talent but plays out of control and the game seems way too fast for him. Mistakes abound. Too bad, had high hopes for the guy. And I see no evidence that his teammates trust him, either. He gets the ball on his own and shoots, it isn't passed to him often.
3. Sanogo is intriguing. What an immovable pick he sets, eh? Good rebounding and did a lot on the floor that raises hopes, but he is very, very rough. Worst case is he becomes another Felicio. Best case is a junior Drummond-lite.
4. Considering all the accolades re his off-season achievements in other competitive venues, is there anything to be excited about in Carlique Jones? Let me know when you know.
5. Taylor, Jackson and Lewis were good in a try-hard way. We'll see.
6. Jevon Carter as a big off-season acquisition. Oh boy, thanks, AK.
My thoughts as the regular season approaches:
1) The best way to describe bringing back Vuc would be….comically pointless. He and the trade that was made to acquire him have essentially become the faces of this mediocre era, which is why giving him a new contract was so laughable. Any smart GM would have looked at the situation last year and said “At the very least, we have to move on from Vuc.” Instead, AK said “At the very least, we have to bring back Vuc.” And to anyone covering the Bulls who has wondered if the team should be run through Vuc more…stop it. Yes, he’s a center. Yes, he can pass a bit. Yes, he can shoot a bit. No, these things do not make him a poor man’s Jokic. They make him a poor man’s all-star reserve. The fact that we might waste FIVE AND A HALF YEARS watching him play in a Bulls uniform is unforgivable.
2) Bitim’s shot alone should result in him getting more NBA minutes than Terry.
3) The continuous improvement of Coby has been encouraging to see. He looks like a legit weapon on offense and competent on defense. If he were to come off the bench, I actually think he has “sixth man of the year” potential. He also might become a solid starter this year, which is great to see.
4) This is Zach’s seventh year on the team. Jimmy was here for six years. Let that fact sink in. We’ve won one playoff game since that trade. Can we fire Gar Forman again?
5) Unless Coby or Pat makes a big leap, this team has a clear ceiling. Carter and Craig raise the floor. I see this team winning around 44 games.
Pointless comment, but I'm going to be using "Mid 3" whenever I can forcibly wedge it into a conversation.
Would blazers take Ball, DeRozan and their pick back for Grant and brogdon? Trade couldn’t happen until Jan15. Would Bulls be better off? It would stick us with Grant’s contract who is another ‘mid’ but a better 3 and D player.
I also like Debo for Suggs, Isaac, and the 2025 FRP from Denver. Orlando probably doesn’t do this, but Isaac will dominate defensively if he stays healthy. He’s the kind of shot blocking PF we need next to Vuc.
Maybe we do a Debo deal with Knicks that includes Fournier and a FRP, and we route both to ORL for Isaac?
No. Portland "taking their pick back" is delusional if you think that's some kind of sweetener for taking back two players counter-productive to what they're trying to do.
If Portland remains bad, that 1st never conveys, it becomes a 2nd round pick. So why would they take the pick back? Why would they acquire win-now players so they get good enough so it conveys as a 1st?
For trade purposes, that pick is a second rounder with a very small chance it becomes a middle first.
It's just another deal where Karnisovas got hosed, only this time he traded a future all-star for it.
Portland would want their pick back because the constraints on it make it difficult to trade future picks. They wouldn’t be getting win now players. Ball won’t play this year and Debo could be flipped for more assets (like clipper pick + expirings) or kept to nurture the youngsters. The trade would help their tanking and giving playing time to youth, which is why they should be doing now. And it improves their future financial flexibility. The question is are Brogdon + long-term Grant > Debo for Bulls.
First, Portland has already acquired multiple picks in the years in question and will use the players you'd like them to hand over to acquire more. Secondly, picks are traded with language that reads "to convey if it doesn't convey to Chicago, etc." or "to convey one year after pick conveys to Chicago, etc." all the time. It's not a big deal. This is a message board obsession with close to zero real world relevance. If you said "Hey, would you like those rights back?" they would say yeah, but if you ask them "Would you also give up two players you could likely get a couple of picks for in exchange?" they'd laugh at you.
Doesn't really bother me what people waste their time with - there are other message boards where users advise each other on how to squirt horse dewormer in their granny's socks if she starts coughing - but it's out of touch with reality to pretend this is some valuable trade chip. It's a 2nd rounder with a coupon attached that became far less interesting when they traded Lilliard.
yeah I wish this site had some kind of fanposts function so I could move these ideas. Maybe BaB phpbb forum next.
Yeah, ramblings about horse dewormer and swimming though pig shit are why people come to this site. Move all the Bulls fan posts off please.
Not really fair, Matt knows his business. The white hot Evan Fournier trade proposals — that's fucking pageview city, baby.
With or without the pick, the deal would save Portland $150M. Not sure how much Grant is worth to other teams with $160M due thru 2028. Brogdon for Ball would just be to free up more time for Scoot and for tanking. Sad that pick was the “1st rounder” for dumping future all-star Lauri.
> Brogdon for Ball would just be to free up more time for Scoot and for tanking.
So... they'll make this trade with the goal of intentionally making their team worse... but also because they're sweating a pick they won't give up unless they make the playoffs.
1. Popovich somehow got DeMar DeRozan to pass the ball more than at any point in his career during DeMar's contract year. That says a lot about DeMar but DeMar himself has always praised Popovich for elevating his game. In that specific case, it does come down to who is coaching and Billy isn't Pop. I also have to admit that the 2021 Spurs DeRozan would be the best point guard on our roster, so it's worth noting that Karnisovas isn't Popovich either.
So DeMar isn't necessarily going to chuck in his contract year... but he must be aware this will be the last big contract of his career. Maybe history repeats but without Popovich, probably not: I imagine he's going to average close to his career high of 20 shots a game (obviously somewhat misleading given how often he draws fouls).
2. The Bulls could play meaningfully faster if they crashed the boards but their defense is predicated on Vucevic cleaning up the defensive glass. If he can hit the outlet pass with any great frequency or showed that kind of court vision he's never shown it in his career. Without that they're a team of plodders and there's really no getting around that.
3. Taking the over or under on 37 to 40 wins is just the worst possible bet I can think of. It's not that hard for a team of this caliber to fluctuate that much, it doesn't reflect improvement or decline, it's just shear luck in playing 10 other teams that aren't really good. The Bulls won a game late last year against Dallas that was the closest thing to a forfeit I've seen since Kevin McHale told Mark Madsen to take every shot and intentionally miss them so they could save a draft pick on the last day of the season (quite a boxscore: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200604190MIN.html and here's the backstory of how a guy who never took 3s took like 7 in a few minutes: https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-nba-coast-to-coast-20140323-story.html )
4. It's kind of depressing because I think you could build a really fun and weird team around DeMar and his throwback game, and it's obvious how you'd do it, and the Bulls have done almost none of it. Like if DeMar had a lower FG% but made 2.5 3s a game, he would be massively overpaid. Instead because he is incredibly efficient but doesn't do that thing, so a lot of teams think he won't fit. You could have used that to cleanse the old ghosts and put together a fun team for the new admin, but the only guy the team has added that really makes a lot of sense and is valuable is Caruso.
5. Like Satoransky before him, you guys are going to hate Carter when he averages 8 points and 3 assists and you're going to call for Billy to be fired or something silly like that when Craig disappears from the rotation for awhile. They're both paid to be decent backups (Craig paid to basically be a roster-filler), that's what I expect from them.
6. There's a trade market for anyone, but not necessarily a good one, and there probably isn't a good one for DeMar. The good teams (and up to 1/3rd of the league) have practically no tradeable draft assets. The offers for DeMar mid-season will probably be something like a contract you really don't want and a player that might be vaguely interesting - like a guy who hasn't figured out his jump shot or a former 1st whose team is embarrassed they really don't want to extend.
To your 4th point, they did have that for a while with Lonzo around. I’d love to go back to the Chi Slamma Jamma days.
So the question is why doesn’t Debo get more assists and 3 pointers when he’s clearly capable? Does the coach not ask for these, or does the coach ask but player ignores. In both cases the problem is with the coach!
Three pointers are a totally different story, he perfected his current shot profile under Pop — he's taking *more* here than he did in San Antonio. I'm not even sure you want "point DeMar" (though it's probably better than anything else we have), it was more an attempt to figure out how he's going to play entering a contract year at age 34. Put $30 million on a table across a lake of pig shit and tell me to go get and I'm probably diving head first and doing the backstroke. It's a lot of money to say to someone "Ok be less selfish and make sure Vucevic gets more touches."
Though I don't think it's a surprise to anyone, including Billy, that Billy is not as good a coach as Popovich.
I swear to god I can write a coach’s response to media questions in the preseason in my sleep.
“We’re going to play with a sense of urgency and tempo”
“We’ve been trying out a few new wrinkles to the offense”
“We’re going to be mentally tougher on defense”
Anyone watching this Nuggets game? I just walked in and saw it was in double overtime lol
Terry Taylor's boxscore is beastly!
Game two was a bit deceptive. Chicago shot 38 threes, but only 29 or 30 of those came in regulation.
Vooch was thoroughly outplayed for the second straight game by his opponent. To be fair, this time it was Jokic. He now has five turnovers to three assists in preseason. Not great for the Point-Vooch crowd.
Pat forgot to show up, but had a great +/-. Shows how deceptive that can be in isolation.
Coby needs to get more shots up. This is why I don't want him starting. There's just not enough to go around playing alongside the mid-3.
Man am I sure glad we didn’t draft Walker Kessler last year.
It was soooo much more logical for AK to choose the path of Terry and Drummond, who shot a combined 6-21 last night.
Why draft for a position of need when you can draft a project with "upside" despite being known as an organization that doesn't develop players??
It's funny how The Org used to focus disproportionately on "NBA ready" guys, which meant "the oldest players in the draft with no athletic ability and little upside or they would have been drafted when they were freshmen" and now they're just like "a 6'8" guy who can't shoot? Sounds like LEBRON JAMES TO ME ."
Sadly that's very accurate.
Terry and Phillips with the combined 1 field goal in 38 minutes is something else man.
I think it is clear from preseason that Dalen Terry is a bust.
I didn't watch the game last night but my view is they need to set up plays for Julien Phillips and just see how he does. Need to see what his strengths and weaknesses are.
Bulls love drafting players to replace 9th, 10th men.
Dalen was a dumb pick. He is basically a shitty version of Troy Brown Jr.
Phillips is just a potential Derrick Jones Jr....
you don't need to be using 1st and high 2nd picks to draft project players like that who at best will be middling bench guys
Coby White really is starting to look like a PG. Good passing skills. Shot looks good. Looks like maybe Donovan is finally giving him a bit more free reign.
Eh he had free reign last night because the mid-3 weren't playing. He's still not going to get the ball enough when playing alongside those guys.
what was the logic behind that anyway? usually there are more minutes as the preseason goes on, not random benchings lol.
I think KC said Billy wanted to give them a game off and this game made the most sense since it was an away game. The final two games are home games, so they gotta trot out there to keep the home crowd happy.
I see. Honestly I was surprised for that reason that the Bucks guys didn't play in the opener since they were at home.
Also I mean Den is a tough location. Still think it's a bit weird to not play at all. It's not like it was a real tight schedule.
Well, my guess is the Bucks owner isn't putting as much pressure on his team to get as many butts in seats as possible during preseason as Jerry is...
Fair and I only really say it because they had a big new acquisition. If they hadn't made the trade, I definitely wouldn't wonder lol.
Every team in the league is doing this, even with rookies and young players who played far more minutes in the Summer League against inferior competition. It's awful to watch, I actually feel bad for people who have to do it.