If LaVine truly is “just not a winning player,” there’s no better place for him than Detroit.
I don’t love what the Bulls could realistically get back from the Pistons, but I won’t be sad to never see LaVine in a Bulls jersey again, whenever that day comes.
Bulls and Pistons love exchanging sucky players: we got Ben Wallace; they got Ben Gordon. And now, frooooom Seattle... at shooting guard... Zach LaVine!
Even though I was a big Team Kirk fan during that guard war, to calm Ben Gordon sucky just isn't right. Dude ranks 3rd all time for rookie usg behind wemby and Luka, and he came off the bench!
Fine. Whatever. Just get it done. If there is no 1st available anywhere, and no Ivey or similar on offer, then I would take Sasser, Bogdonovich and expiring salary plus a couple seconds just to be done and get some assets.
I don't see how Ivey makes much sense for Detroit if they are adding Lavine, but whatever. Maybe they view him as a trade piece to play elsewhere.
there's a couple cap machinations to consider with the Pistons
Stewart is poison-pilled, meaning he has different outgoing/incoming salary calculation
Pistons have a $5M TPE
Muscala and Gallinari were just acquired and can't be aggregated
If the Pistons think they can get better value for Burks, and the Bulls are pretty guard-heavy anyway, would they take him out and instead include Stewart+Hayes?
Bogdanovic+Hayes+Stewart for LaVine works in the machine, and would lower Bulls payroll by over $7M. They get a backup center and could do a Drummond deal for positive value. Could sign someone in buyout market.
So does that mean Muscala CAN be traded, but his salary doesn't count against matching? He's past expiration I guess, but I always liked the length and 3-pointer ability on this guy.
Of the many possible permutations of deals with the Pistons, I think this is my favorite that doesn't include one of their blue chippers. I'd probably want to send Taylor as well for salary / roster reasons. Even if they keep Drummond, having a big body 4/5 type in Stewart is something the Bulls have sorely missed in recent years. A cheap look at Hayes as a sort of 2nd draft guy would be ok. Plus Bojan's contract is only partially guaranteed at $2m next year, which gives you some optionality if you'd rather cut bait and open up some payroll space.
Me too. I think Stewart is pretty obviously the best choice, with Sasser being the second.
Obviously any picks would be nice too.
I don't think Wiseman is an NBA player. Hayes I don't like much either, but he's at least gotten his ORtg > 100 and he's only 22. Maybe there's hope for him? If we ended up separately moving Caruso, I guess he's ok as a 4th guy next year
I think it's like a lot of teams with bad talent evaluators (example: the Bulls). It's not that the idea in the abstract was a bad one, it's that they suck at executing their ideas.
Targeted the wrong players and still paid too much for 'em.
The rationale for the Pistons doing this is that they are going nowhere and he can hold a salary slot, score some points and burn a little bit of his contract for a year or two before he becomes a much more valuable asset on a shorter deal. But the Bulls are also going nowhere so why would we do this for no prospects in return?
the Bulls are going nowhere but they don't see it that way. There's some risk in that LaVine will get you more in the offseason, but I don't see that as very high. Would it even be much higher than Bogdanovic on 1 year $19M? And also it's more likely LaVine's value is raised in chucking shots for the Pistons than being the 4th option here (he won't play defense in either situation)
The pistons imo have a brighter future....they have good players and Zach might honestly be moving to the better team. This *should* be the first step in a larger tear down for the Bulls, but who knows if that will actually happen. Once they move Zach, Vooch is really the only cumbersome contract left - others could be traded pretty easily.
1. The Pistons side doesn't say Stewart or Sasser are untouchable and they are decent prospects. Likewise with any picks we might get.
2. The Bulls are in their usual (self-imposed) contract crunch. They'll still have Lonzo as dead money, they presumably want to re-sign DeMar, and Pat will be an RFA.
3. It's pretty clear that the Bulls aren't going to miss anything big trading Lavine. So cut our losses and potentially improve.
Based on that deal, freeing up Drummond to trade, as YFBB notes above, seems like another net positive. Stewart is only a mild downgrade from Drummond and the Bulls should be able to get 2 seconds out of Drummond (I'd prefer an OKC second and Alexsej Pokusevski just for the weirdness).
Zach has proven he has a negative impact on this roster's development. That's significant (I'm not even saying he's a bad player or couldn't help a team to be fair). It's GM malpractice not to send him out now. If there's no or a limited market then he's also a negative value contract and you can't expect value back and might even need to attach a pick. But you have to do it. What's the alternative? Too bad if I it gets AKME fired? They probably should .
Pistons have a bunch of expiring deals in the $10M range and Bogdanovic who has a not-fully-guaranteed salary next season, so I'm 95% sure a salary dump is coming and AK will try to spin this as addition by subtraction.
Kind of a shame that they seperately traded Bagley. He's not great, but he would have been salary filler that was actually useful for us, as opposed to Wiseman, who's flat out unplayably bad.
I kind of LOL that they won't give up Ivey, but truth be told, Marcus Sasser or Isaiah Stewart might be better players. Stewart would be the ideal. He's a positive on the court, still young, but old enough that he now has some clue how to play defense, and he can shoot. Best of all, would let us viably ship out Vuc.
If I were the Bulls, I'd do the if they give me Isaiah Stewart and be tickled pink. If they'd give me Stewart and Sasser both, I'd be ecstatic. I'd be willing to take back Joe Harris instead of Bogdanovic because it'd help the Pistons look more respectable in the short run and ease the pain of giving up one or two young guys, but I strongly suspect the Bulls would demand Bogdanovic because AK is also wanting to make the playoffs and will gladly sell out the future for a 34 year old Yugo that can boost us from the 9th seed to the 8th seed.
Shrug. Doesn't really make a difference to me. By trading LaVine, the Bulls would likely be shedding about $20M in salary obligations for next year anyway, so I don't think it would hold them back.
yeah Stewart would be a home run, just to get anybody over 6'6" and under 30 years old on the roster
I am not sure the Pistons are concerned about any respectability gap in trading Bogdanovic. For one thing you'll have LaVine playing a ton of minutes...oh wait... but I do think they perhaps value what they could get in a separate Bogdanovic trade. I highly doubt they could get a first for him though. Just give them Dalen Terry.
Jan 25·edited Jan 25Liked by your friendly BullsBlogger
I'm still of the opinion that Chicago will ask for something between colliding galaxies of unrealistic and stupid, but in what world is Jalen Ivey, a bench guy with a poor shooting percentage on a horseshit team, a blue-chip prospect?
It seems like others are a lot higher on him than I am.
But you mean to tell me Detroit has four blue chip guys on a presumptive ten-win roster? These organizations might as well be Spiderman meme'ing themselves re: their appraisals.
Cunningham is good. Duren will turn into a monster, pending the health of his ankles. Ausur Thompson is a fun exercise and I understand being protective of him being all toolsy and shit, but the idea that a (checks notes) five-win team has four blue chippers is amusing on its face.
That being said, I think the Bulls are all on "being competitive" and "flexibility" (Bogdanovic has 2MIL guaranteed next year) and I see why they're "locked in" on him.
I don't follow the Pistons enough to know what their motivations for this kind of trade would be. Obviously they want to improve the team but would adding some [former] all-star "sizzle" be something they'd do at the expense of waiting on young talent (think 2000s Knicks)?
In the realm of "it works in the trade machine!" I'd suggest Zach, Pat, Lonzo, and a first round pick for Cade, Bogdan, Gallo's ghost, and Joe Harris. Neither team ends up in the tax and Lonzo's salary is paid by insurance.
This occurred to me after I posted earlier: what if this was a rumor planted by the Bulls to get Zach to buy in to the team and play in more of a team system? Like, "act right or you're getting exiled to Detroit."
Jan 25·edited Jan 25Liked by your friendly BullsBlogger
Who are the Detroit Pistons? They're supposed to be a basketball team. Their owner claims they're a community trust. Nobody believes they're real. Nobody has ever seen a game or knew anyone worth a damn that ever played for them, but to hear Wojnarowski tell it, anybody could be traded to the Pistons. You never knew. That was their power. The greatest trick Rudy Tomjanovich ever pulled was threatening his players that he'd trade them to the Pistons.
They've become a myth, a spook story that coaches tell their players on the plane. "Take a 27 footer with 18 left on the shot clock and the Pistons will get you.” But no one ever really believes….
Before he punched his equipment manager in the face, Blake Griffin always said, “I don’t believe in God, I believe in these 24 inch pythons coming to getcha!" Well, he probably believes in God now, and the only thing that scares him is having played for the Detroit Pistons.
This will almost certainly be the case. The pattern was clear back in the sbnation days. The bad team blogs were usually fun, if a little humid at times. The good team blogs generally oscillated between joyless arrogance and morbid squealing.
From what I understand, they have a factional front office that is constantly at odds with one another and an owner who is best known for profiting handsomely from selling services to prisoners. Essentially they're acquiring Blake Griffin again, down to the Slam Dunk champ trophy on his mantle.
The Griffin comp is great. What really burned the Pistons in that deal wasn't giving up Tobias Harris (or Boban) but the pick that turned into Miles Bridges-traded-for-SGA. Ouch! Hopefully all they learned from it is not to give up a first. If the Bulls netted some of the packages mentioned above, sans a first but including a decent second, and capitalized by making it out of the play-in, and Zach powered the Pistons to a first round playoff birth next year like Blake did early on (unlikely!), then it's mediocre win-win, baby!
Can't remember where I read about the Pistons repeating history with a Blake Griffin-like trade or whether it mentioned Zach specifically, but it was during the losing streak and the author cited a few interesting parallels.
You had a fairly high profile coach who'd been fired from his previous gig (Stan Van Gundy -> Monty Williams), they had an all star caliber player but with very deep flaws (Andre Drummond -> Cade Cunningham) and rather than try to sort out what the real issues were, they doubled down by taking another team's problem off their hands in getting an all star with a giant contract. BlakeGH had signed that killer extension like 6 months before he was traded, for Zach it will be about 18 months. Zach has 3 years left after this year, Blake had 4. Blake was an all star the very next year and had a career season, but I think by the time the (only) playoff series of his Detroit career rolled around, he was basically finished.
I think the valuations are hilarious because just a year ago commenters would call you insane if you discussed rebuilding that *wasn't* centered around Zach. Just signed an extension, got it, but he was still considered the centerpiece. Now we're basically hoping to sucker a team into believing the same thing lol
SVG also the head personnel guy for those teams. Some people are VERY good at talking with rich guys. So he was in bacon-saving mode after futzing around with Jon Leuer and Reggie Jackson moves to no effect for years. It almost worked, too, because Blake not only didn't sulk about coming to Detroit, he reinvented himself as a point-PF fulcrum, and, as you point out, dragged them into the playoffs his second year as his legs disintegrated.
I honestly think the pistons may be more than willing to part with their pick THIS YEAR in a trade for lavine. This year's draft is really being viewed in abysmal light... And the pistons issue is they have too many players to develop. I could see them willing to trade the pick away and just focus on their current roster... And trading for a recent all star in Zach who is still in his prime may entice them...
Not to turn this into a draft thread, but I see this draft as having a half dozen or so pretty cool top prospects, followed by a whole lot of nothing ("mystery" if you will). Which is to say, were I the Pistons, my pick is not one of the ones I'd like to move. Which is also to say, were I the Bulls, I'd be fine shopping mine (though at least a couple of the guys I think are top prospects are being mocked in the Bulls range). Of course, I have no idea what the Pistons or the Bulls specifically think about the draft.
I'm not convinced by these trades. I think holding on to him is fine. Like, I don't think you need to trade him in the offseason, either. Zach has no cards to play. He holds out, Bulls win games. He plays, they get a higher pick. What's the threat here? A bad time? Folks, we're having a bad time. Everyone here knows this. Meanwhile, I think if I were even inclined to trade for Zach, I'd consider his 3 remaining years to be a bit much. He'd be my experiment, and an expensive one. Three years after this is a lot.
I won't pretend to know anything about Detroit's prospects. Because I don't watch 10 win teams and probably no one does. So I'll outsource my opinion to b-r.com. The Houston guard's age/production combo looks to me like a guy who could be good or could be exactly what he is now. Stewart might need a change of scenery. But it sure looks like he's played worse every year he's been in the league. Is there context? Probably. Again, I don't waste my time with teams like this. So who knows.
1. Extremely bad mojo. He's bad, but letting it get to a Ben Simmons level bad where he's just radioactive is a possibility.
2. Since this is the Bulls, they're no doubt looking at next year, and figuring that they want to re-sign Pat and DeMar w/o going over the tax. Moving off Zach's money, at least in part, is gonna be necessary to do that.
Bridges... sheesh, talk about bad mojo. I feel like he's destined for the Heat where they can just tap on the "Heat Culture" sign if they get any questions about character concerns.
I'm not concerned about it at all. I think restricted free agency really depresses everyone's market, and Pat isn't going to get paid because some GM reads tweets about 'the improvement we don't see' or whatever
the Bulls are actually playing this right in their goal to lower payroll. I think even at $20M he could be a value, and the CBA has legislated out a lot of owners mistakes so at 'worst' he's signed through age 27
It's the possibility of paying him at or around $20M a year that gives me pause. I might be in the minority here, but I don't think he should be starting on a good team. Setting aside that the Bulls aren't a good team, should a bench-level forward get paid $20M even under the new CBA? His shooting overall (using TS%) has gotten worse over the last 2 seasons. Aside from "being long," I cant point to anything he is good at.
ultimately yes it's rudderless, but it's been better than "a bad time" with LaVine out and Coby White taking over that usage. I think LaVine does hold Coby back, like the concept that DeMar is holding back Pat but actually legitimate
And so if Zach is not simply removed, but replaced with better size and shooting around Coby, that's a better time, even if ultimately a play-in loss or first round gentleman's sweep
I don't buy that Zach and Coby can't co-exist. They can just as DeMar and Coby can co-exist. What can't co-exist is all three together.
I feel a little insane asking this, but why should Demar re-sign here? It makes no sense for the Bulls, and it makes no sense for DeMar, even if he is kind of an odd guy. The coda to DeMar's career should be better than this. He's been a great guy and player. And the Bulls should be focusing on getting the best deal they can for Zach.
What Would Daryl Morey Do? Really, I think that's a great question to ask. That guy pretty much always makes the most of what he has available. He doesn't waste trades. He waits for something that looks good to him. These DET options are a waste.
> I feel a little insane asking this, but why should Demar re-sign here?
Rhetorical question? Money and minutes. The Bulls can and probably will offer probably the best combination of them both.
1. Who else would give him (let's say) $25 million? Would a team with that cap space spend it on a soon to be 35 year old? If it's a sign-and-trade, would any of those teams make it worth Chicago's while to take on another year of salary to pull this off? (We don't really do the salary-for-picks here.)
2. Who else is going to give him a starting spot and as many shots as he wants? Maybe he's not ready to be the 2nd stage Michael Finley in a place like Milwaukee or Sacramento. (And he's both 3 years older than Finley was when he went to San Antonio and far more productive.)
3. How many teams are really able to integrate him as a secondary piece in their offense? How many that have the money aren't going to look at the example of other ill fits like this and drop a dollar on Luke Kennard instead? It's not say Kennard is better, but it's less work for everyone to just go and get 3 point shooters or 7 foot shotblockers or whatever.
He could give someone a discount to win, and be a bench scorer for the same reason, but I don't know if I'd bet on him doing both. I wouldn't do either if I were still playing the way he is. Basically he's exceeding almost all of his career averages this year.
I could see Houston giving him some cash, but I can't imagine he's their Plan A, B or C. I can see Dallas giving him a good role but not much cash. I'm not sure there's any other team that can do both. (I guess you can add a third factor, which is winning, and the Bulls obviously can't do that one.)
> And the Bulls should be focusing on getting the best deal they can for Zach.
This feels like a very TheMoon answer, but is it written anywhere they cannot do both? They will effectively HAVE to do both, because Zach will almost certainly start pulling a Harden if he really wants out, and free agency is a matter of a date on a calendar that comes whether you want to deal with it or not.
If you say so. Reality does suck, huh? If they get a big return for him I'll admit I'm wrong. But if we keep him because we don't like the return what exactly are we doing? Sometimes you just need to punt on a bad situation.
If LaVine truly is “just not a winning player,” there’s no better place for him than Detroit.
I don’t love what the Bulls could realistically get back from the Pistons, but I won’t be sad to never see LaVine in a Bulls jersey again, whenever that day comes.
Bulls and Pistons love exchanging sucky players: we got Ben Wallace; they got Ben Gordon. And now, frooooom Seattle... at shooting guard... Zach LaVine!
Even though I was a big Team Kirk fan during that guard war, to calm Ben Gordon sucky just isn't right. Dude ranks 3rd all time for rookie usg behind wemby and Luka, and he came off the bench!
I'm really talking about BG 2.0. He left the Bulls and fell off a cliff.
Whatever. Let's do it. I don't even care if we don't get a first back. Just let Detroit sprinkle in some 2nd-rounders.
Fine. Whatever. Just get it done. If there is no 1st available anywhere, and no Ivey or similar on offer, then I would take Sasser, Bogdonovich and expiring salary plus a couple seconds just to be done and get some assets.
I don't see how Ivey makes much sense for Detroit if they are adding Lavine, but whatever. Maybe they view him as a trade piece to play elsewhere.
there's a couple cap machinations to consider with the Pistons
Stewart is poison-pilled, meaning he has different outgoing/incoming salary calculation
Pistons have a $5M TPE
Muscala and Gallinari were just acquired and can't be aggregated
If the Pistons think they can get better value for Burks, and the Bulls are pretty guard-heavy anyway, would they take him out and instead include Stewart+Hayes?
Bogdanovic+Hayes+Stewart for LaVine works in the machine, and would lower Bulls payroll by over $7M. They get a backup center and could do a Drummond deal for positive value. Could sign someone in buyout market.
So does that mean Muscala CAN be traded, but his salary doesn't count against matching? He's past expiration I guess, but I always liked the length and 3-pointer ability on this guy.
Detroit can only trade Muscala by himself. You can't trade Muscala and Ivey or Bogdanovic or any other player with him.
They could do a side deal like Carter or Terry for Muscala and as long as it works as a standalone deal.
EG, Trade 1
Muscala for Terry
Trade 2
Zach, Terry Taylor, Craig
for
Bogdan, Wiseman, Stewart
Of the many possible permutations of deals with the Pistons, I think this is my favorite that doesn't include one of their blue chippers. I'd probably want to send Taylor as well for salary / roster reasons. Even if they keep Drummond, having a big body 4/5 type in Stewart is something the Bulls have sorely missed in recent years. A cheap look at Hayes as a sort of 2nd draft guy would be ok. Plus Bojan's contract is only partially guaranteed at $2m next year, which gives you some optionality if you'd rather cut bait and open up some payroll space.
Me too. I think Stewart is pretty obviously the best choice, with Sasser being the second.
Obviously any picks would be nice too.
I don't think Wiseman is an NBA player. Hayes I don't like much either, but he's at least gotten his ORtg > 100 and he's only 22. Maybe there's hope for him? If we ended up separately moving Caruso, I guess he's ok as a 4th guy next year
I thought the Piston's strategy of picking up bust-out lottery picks for cheap was a great idea, but it seems to have failed in every single instance.
I think it's like a lot of teams with bad talent evaluators (example: the Bulls). It's not that the idea in the abstract was a bad one, it's that they suck at executing their ideas.
Targeted the wrong players and still paid too much for 'em.
The rationale for the Pistons doing this is that they are going nowhere and he can hold a salary slot, score some points and burn a little bit of his contract for a year or two before he becomes a much more valuable asset on a shorter deal. But the Bulls are also going nowhere so why would we do this for no prospects in return?
to better our odds in the play-in tournament?
the Bulls are going nowhere but they don't see it that way. There's some risk in that LaVine will get you more in the offseason, but I don't see that as very high. Would it even be much higher than Bogdanovic on 1 year $19M? And also it's more likely LaVine's value is raised in chucking shots for the Pistons than being the 4th option here (he won't play defense in either situation)
The pistons imo have a brighter future....they have good players and Zach might honestly be moving to the better team. This *should* be the first step in a larger tear down for the Bulls, but who knows if that will actually happen. Once they move Zach, Vooch is really the only cumbersome contract left - others could be traded pretty easily.
the Pistons are currently in that sweet GarPax spot of no onerous contracts because you have no good players
1. The Pistons side doesn't say Stewart or Sasser are untouchable and they are decent prospects. Likewise with any picks we might get.
2. The Bulls are in their usual (self-imposed) contract crunch. They'll still have Lonzo as dead money, they presumably want to re-sign DeMar, and Pat will be an RFA.
3. It's pretty clear that the Bulls aren't going to miss anything big trading Lavine. So cut our losses and potentially improve.
Based on that deal, freeing up Drummond to trade, as YFBB notes above, seems like another net positive. Stewart is only a mild downgrade from Drummond and the Bulls should be able to get 2 seconds out of Drummond (I'd prefer an OKC second and Alexsej Pokusevski just for the weirdness).
Poku and Terry Taylor on the floor may cause a gravity well to appear beneath the United Center. Let's do it.
Zach has proven he has a negative impact on this roster's development. That's significant (I'm not even saying he's a bad player or couldn't help a team to be fair). It's GM malpractice not to send him out now. If there's no or a limited market then he's also a negative value contract and you can't expect value back and might even need to attach a pick. But you have to do it. What's the alternative? Too bad if I it gets AKME fired? They probably should .
Sending out a pick to dump Zach would be the dumbest possible move. Like a practical joke.
FUCKING DO IT
SEND HIM TO THE WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE NOW
JUST DO IT
Pistons have a bunch of expiring deals in the $10M range and Bogdanovic who has a not-fully-guaranteed salary next season, so I'm 95% sure a salary dump is coming and AK will try to spin this as addition by subtraction.
shit I'm buying that at this point
KC is still saying that the Bulls are not viewing a LaVine trade as such (to carry water and try and boost LaVine's value)
Just recycling what I said before:
Kind of a shame that they seperately traded Bagley. He's not great, but he would have been salary filler that was actually useful for us, as opposed to Wiseman, who's flat out unplayably bad.
I kind of LOL that they won't give up Ivey, but truth be told, Marcus Sasser or Isaiah Stewart might be better players. Stewart would be the ideal. He's a positive on the court, still young, but old enough that he now has some clue how to play defense, and he can shoot. Best of all, would let us viably ship out Vuc.
If I were the Bulls, I'd do the if they give me Isaiah Stewart and be tickled pink. If they'd give me Stewart and Sasser both, I'd be ecstatic. I'd be willing to take back Joe Harris instead of Bogdanovic because it'd help the Pistons look more respectable in the short run and ease the pain of giving up one or two young guys, but I strongly suspect the Bulls would demand Bogdanovic because AK is also wanting to make the playoffs and will gladly sell out the future for a 34 year old Yugo that can boost us from the 9th seed to the 8th seed.
Bagley's signed through next season which makes a big difference (enough to where they traded him)
Shrug. Doesn't really make a difference to me. By trading LaVine, the Bulls would likely be shedding about $20M in salary obligations for next year anyway, so I don't think it would hold them back.
yeah Stewart would be a home run, just to get anybody over 6'6" and under 30 years old on the roster
I am not sure the Pistons are concerned about any respectability gap in trading Bogdanovic. For one thing you'll have LaVine playing a ton of minutes...oh wait... but I do think they perhaps value what they could get in a separate Bogdanovic trade. I highly doubt they could get a first for him though. Just give them Dalen Terry.
I'm still of the opinion that Chicago will ask for something between colliding galaxies of unrealistic and stupid, but in what world is Jalen Ivey, a bench guy with a poor shooting percentage on a horseshit team, a blue-chip prospect?
It seems like others are a lot higher on him than I am.
But you mean to tell me Detroit has four blue chip guys on a presumptive ten-win roster? These organizations might as well be Spiderman meme'ing themselves re: their appraisals.
Cunningham is good. Duren will turn into a monster, pending the health of his ankles. Ausur Thompson is a fun exercise and I understand being protective of him being all toolsy and shit, but the idea that a (checks notes) five-win team has four blue chippers is amusing on its face.
That being said, I think the Bulls are all on "being competitive" and "flexibility" (Bogdanovic has 2MIL guaranteed next year) and I see why they're "locked in" on him.
Pistons fans believe that Ivey is secretly good and just being held back by Monty's terrible coaching decisions.
updated roster snapshot of Pistons after some guys back from injury and that Bagley trade
just wild to me that Hayes is younger than Sasser
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GEt5db8aIAAwgC0?format=png&name=small
I was expecting to click this and see the poop emoji.
I would not want Hayes in any deal. No more guards who can't shoot.
I don't follow the Pistons enough to know what their motivations for this kind of trade would be. Obviously they want to improve the team but would adding some [former] all-star "sizzle" be something they'd do at the expense of waiting on young talent (think 2000s Knicks)?
In the realm of "it works in the trade machine!" I'd suggest Zach, Pat, Lonzo, and a first round pick for Cade, Bogdan, Gallo's ghost, and Joe Harris. Neither team ends up in the tax and Lonzo's salary is paid by insurance.
at this point the trade value is so low for LaVine that the Pistons could simply do it for the arbitrage of then trading him in the offseason
This occurred to me after I posted earlier: what if this was a rumor planted by the Bulls to get Zach to buy in to the team and play in more of a team system? Like, "act right or you're getting exiled to Detroit."
or even a message to Rich Paul to tell the Lakers to offer more or he's exiled to Detroit
Who are the Detroit Pistons? They're supposed to be a basketball team. Their owner claims they're a community trust. Nobody believes they're real. Nobody has ever seen a game or knew anyone worth a damn that ever played for them, but to hear Wojnarowski tell it, anybody could be traded to the Pistons. You never knew. That was their power. The greatest trick Rudy Tomjanovich ever pulled was threatening his players that he'd trade them to the Pistons.
They've become a myth, a spook story that coaches tell their players on the plane. "Take a 27 footer with 18 left on the shot clock and the Pistons will get you.” But no one ever really believes….
Before he punched his equipment manager in the face, Blake Griffin always said, “I don’t believe in God, I believe in these 24 inch pythons coming to getcha!" Well, he probably believes in God now, and the only thing that scares him is having played for the Detroit Pistons.
I fear that if the Bulls ever become a normal team, we'll be deprived of posts like this.
This will almost certainly be the case. The pattern was clear back in the sbnation days. The bad team blogs were usually fun, if a little humid at times. The good team blogs generally oscillated between joyless arrogance and morbid squealing.
Good thing we don't have anything to worry about here.
From what I understand, they have a factional front office that is constantly at odds with one another and an owner who is best known for profiting handsomely from selling services to prisoners. Essentially they're acquiring Blake Griffin again, down to the Slam Dunk champ trophy on his mantle.
The Griffin comp is great. What really burned the Pistons in that deal wasn't giving up Tobias Harris (or Boban) but the pick that turned into Miles Bridges-traded-for-SGA. Ouch! Hopefully all they learned from it is not to give up a first. If the Bulls netted some of the packages mentioned above, sans a first but including a decent second, and capitalized by making it out of the play-in, and Zach powered the Pistons to a first round playoff birth next year like Blake did early on (unlikely!), then it's mediocre win-win, baby!
Can't remember where I read about the Pistons repeating history with a Blake Griffin-like trade or whether it mentioned Zach specifically, but it was during the losing streak and the author cited a few interesting parallels.
You had a fairly high profile coach who'd been fired from his previous gig (Stan Van Gundy -> Monty Williams), they had an all star caliber player but with very deep flaws (Andre Drummond -> Cade Cunningham) and rather than try to sort out what the real issues were, they doubled down by taking another team's problem off their hands in getting an all star with a giant contract. BlakeGH had signed that killer extension like 6 months before he was traded, for Zach it will be about 18 months. Zach has 3 years left after this year, Blake had 4. Blake was an all star the very next year and had a career season, but I think by the time the (only) playoff series of his Detroit career rolled around, he was basically finished.
I think the valuations are hilarious because just a year ago commenters would call you insane if you discussed rebuilding that *wasn't* centered around Zach. Just signed an extension, got it, but he was still considered the centerpiece. Now we're basically hoping to sucker a team into believing the same thing lol
SVG also the head personnel guy for those teams. Some people are VERY good at talking with rich guys. So he was in bacon-saving mode after futzing around with Jon Leuer and Reggie Jackson moves to no effect for years. It almost worked, too, because Blake not only didn't sulk about coming to Detroit, he reinvented himself as a point-PF fulcrum, and, as you point out, dragged them into the playoffs his second year as his legs disintegrated.
I can't see why Detroit does it either. Zach in the Detroit locker room this year (any year?) would be a disaster.
If people thinks he loafs here....ooof. Zach won't come across halfcourt when the Pistons don't have the ball. Talk about CTC time.
OPEN THREAD for Bulls-Lakers: https://substack.com/chat/1508779/post/ee74d064-2eea-44ad-8b0a-538b68b6b796?utm_source=post-permalink
I honestly think the pistons may be more than willing to part with their pick THIS YEAR in a trade for lavine. This year's draft is really being viewed in abysmal light... And the pistons issue is they have too many players to develop. I could see them willing to trade the pick away and just focus on their current roster... And trading for a recent all star in Zach who is still in his prime may entice them...
Not to turn this into a draft thread, but I see this draft as having a half dozen or so pretty cool top prospects, followed by a whole lot of nothing ("mystery" if you will). Which is to say, were I the Pistons, my pick is not one of the ones I'd like to move. Which is also to say, were I the Bulls, I'd be fine shopping mine (though at least a couple of the guys I think are top prospects are being mocked in the Bulls range). Of course, I have no idea what the Pistons or the Bulls specifically think about the draft.
they already owe this year's first round pick to the Knicks (protected, but that keeps them from trading it)
they do have that very high second-rounder
Ah drat... Stupid knicks trade
I'm not convinced by these trades. I think holding on to him is fine. Like, I don't think you need to trade him in the offseason, either. Zach has no cards to play. He holds out, Bulls win games. He plays, they get a higher pick. What's the threat here? A bad time? Folks, we're having a bad time. Everyone here knows this. Meanwhile, I think if I were even inclined to trade for Zach, I'd consider his 3 remaining years to be a bit much. He'd be my experiment, and an expensive one. Three years after this is a lot.
I won't pretend to know anything about Detroit's prospects. Because I don't watch 10 win teams and probably no one does. So I'll outsource my opinion to b-r.com. The Houston guard's age/production combo looks to me like a guy who could be good or could be exactly what he is now. Stewart might need a change of scenery. But it sure looks like he's played worse every year he's been in the league. Is there context? Probably. Again, I don't waste my time with teams like this. So who knows.
Alonzo Mourning.gif
I think the threats are just
1. Extremely bad mojo. He's bad, but letting it get to a Ben Simmons level bad where he's just radioactive is a possibility.
2. Since this is the Bulls, they're no doubt looking at next year, and figuring that they want to re-sign Pat and DeMar w/o going over the tax. Moving off Zach's money, at least in part, is gonna be necessary to do that.
I'm scared to death about re-signing Pat. I'd almost prefer to trade him and then try to get Miles Bridges or Kyle Anderson in free agency.
Bridges... sheesh, talk about bad mojo. I feel like he's destined for the Heat where they can just tap on the "Heat Culture" sign if they get any questions about character concerns.
I'm not concerned about it at all. I think restricted free agency really depresses everyone's market, and Pat isn't going to get paid because some GM reads tweets about 'the improvement we don't see' or whatever
the Bulls are actually playing this right in their goal to lower payroll. I think even at $20M he could be a value, and the CBA has legislated out a lot of owners mistakes so at 'worst' he's signed through age 27
It's the possibility of paying him at or around $20M a year that gives me pause. I might be in the minority here, but I don't think he should be starting on a good team. Setting aside that the Bulls aren't a good team, should a bench-level forward get paid $20M even under the new CBA? His shooting overall (using TS%) has gotten worse over the last 2 seasons. Aside from "being long," I cant point to anything he is good at.
ultimately yes it's rudderless, but it's been better than "a bad time" with LaVine out and Coby White taking over that usage. I think LaVine does hold Coby back, like the concept that DeMar is holding back Pat but actually legitimate
And so if Zach is not simply removed, but replaced with better size and shooting around Coby, that's a better time, even if ultimately a play-in loss or first round gentleman's sweep
I don't buy that Zach and Coby can't co-exist. They can just as DeMar and Coby can co-exist. What can't co-exist is all three together.
I feel a little insane asking this, but why should Demar re-sign here? It makes no sense for the Bulls, and it makes no sense for DeMar, even if he is kind of an odd guy. The coda to DeMar's career should be better than this. He's been a great guy and player. And the Bulls should be focusing on getting the best deal they can for Zach.
What Would Daryl Morey Do? Really, I think that's a great question to ask. That guy pretty much always makes the most of what he has available. He doesn't waste trades. He waits for something that looks good to him. These DET options are a waste.
> I feel a little insane asking this, but why should Demar re-sign here?
Rhetorical question? Money and minutes. The Bulls can and probably will offer probably the best combination of them both.
1. Who else would give him (let's say) $25 million? Would a team with that cap space spend it on a soon to be 35 year old? If it's a sign-and-trade, would any of those teams make it worth Chicago's while to take on another year of salary to pull this off? (We don't really do the salary-for-picks here.)
2. Who else is going to give him a starting spot and as many shots as he wants? Maybe he's not ready to be the 2nd stage Michael Finley in a place like Milwaukee or Sacramento. (And he's both 3 years older than Finley was when he went to San Antonio and far more productive.)
3. How many teams are really able to integrate him as a secondary piece in their offense? How many that have the money aren't going to look at the example of other ill fits like this and drop a dollar on Luke Kennard instead? It's not say Kennard is better, but it's less work for everyone to just go and get 3 point shooters or 7 foot shotblockers or whatever.
He could give someone a discount to win, and be a bench scorer for the same reason, but I don't know if I'd bet on him doing both. I wouldn't do either if I were still playing the way he is. Basically he's exceeding almost all of his career averages this year.
I could see Houston giving him some cash, but I can't imagine he's their Plan A, B or C. I can see Dallas giving him a good role but not much cash. I'm not sure there's any other team that can do both. (I guess you can add a third factor, which is winning, and the Bulls obviously can't do that one.)
> And the Bulls should be focusing on getting the best deal they can for Zach.
This feels like a very TheMoon answer, but is it written anywhere they cannot do both? They will effectively HAVE to do both, because Zach will almost certainly start pulling a Harden if he really wants out, and free agency is a matter of a date on a calendar that comes whether you want to deal with it or not.
If you say so. Reality does suck, huh? If they get a big return for him I'll admit I'm wrong. But if we keep him because we don't like the return what exactly are we doing? Sometimes you just need to punt on a bad situation.