Yeah.I do enjoy competitive local basketball, but I've checked out on Chicago months ago. Sorry. And yes, the Hawks are trash.
That said, there is one question that's been vexing me. The Hawks Play-in elimination has the national press opining that the Trae Young experiment is at an end, or at least should be. I'm curious about your thoughts on a potential Lavine-Young swap. Even money. Each has a skill set that improves their respective team, at least in theory. And I must admit, a Murray - Lavine pairing looks better than Murray - Young ever did.
Trae is an even worse defender than LaVine, and is arguably even more useless off the ball. I want no part of Trae Young here as wholesome as it would be to see him playing with his father Ayo.
Trae was doing some LaVine-level stat padding in the last 2 minutes last night, I don't know if it was more impressive to watch him do it or the way all recaps ignored it.
Why would we want Trae when we have the GOAT at PG locked into a super-cheap deal? Why would we want Trae anyway? He is not that good and requires a roster built to cater to his skills and deficits. We do not have that roster at all.
Ah the classic "deck chairs on the Titanic" aka "trash for trash" trade! If anything, this season proved the haters (scientists?) correct who have been saying that Zach and Trae do not help their teams win.
I probably have a slightly more positive view than the others who have responded so far. I think that trade would make both teams better since I think both guys would fit on the other team better. With that being said, neither of those guys would make their new teams THAT much better.
Like I think Trae on the Bulls with a rim-running center (sorry Vooch) and the Bulls' focus on defense would make Trae look better. The Bulls don't have any true point guards which Trae addresses, but they also have a million guards which Trae only adds to. So some shuffling would need to be done but I could see the Bulls being marginally better with Trae instead of Zach.
I think Zach fits better in Atlanta where he would play off-ball more and he'd be in a system that prioritizes playing faster and getting up a lot of threes. It would highlight his strengths while hopefully minimizing some of his weaknesses.
With all of that being said, it's still a dumb trade because it doesn't really make either team much better. The Bulls should still do everything they can to get rid of Zach, even if it's for a couple bad shorter-term contracts and a pick or two.
Trae is such a weird case. You could imagine a scenario where in the right setting he might be an asset, but his size is just a massive massive problem. Maybe it's not even the size, the style of play on it's own is a problem. It wouldn't be a problem if he were able to hang defensively or at least play off the ball a bit more, but he's a heavy usage tiny guard that isn't flame-thrower-y enough to make up for all of that other stuff. At least at $$$ slot he occupies. It's like the thing with Dame to a degree
Part of it is that the pairing with Murray just doesn't work. The Hawks are better with one of them on and one of them off. Whether that's a Murray problem or a Trae problem isn't clear, but they're both ball dominant guys. If you put Trae on a good team with another ball dominant guy, the same thing happens
SA is the most frequently mentioned spot, and even there, I don't know. It would be fun for sure re Wemby stuff, but I still don't really like it. That team needs a real number two guy and a real perimeter playmaker. Even with Wemby they probably need one more plus perimeter defender to make Trae palatable. That's the problem with these sorts of guys
The Hawks definitely need to trade Trae, his teammates either froze him out or they quit on him or both last night. But given NBA economics, they likely will start shipping out everyone else. Which they're actually kind of set-up for: rebuilding the team around Trae with Jalen Johnson as the "young up and coming guy" isn't a reach. I don't think it will work but it isn't a reach.
As fun as it is to make fun of him Trae (like LaVine) actually has some elite-level skills. He really dominates NBA.com's advanced "passing" stats and the people following him aren't even really very close:
So again there's probably an argument to be made for what they're about to do, but as a rule of thumb when everyone on the team hates one guy, it's usually the fault of the guy, not everyone else.
As far as the Bulls, they do not have the personnel for the circumstances and style that make Trae shine when he does and really no easy way to get them.
That play at the end of the half where Murray was beyond disgusted with Trae on that behind the back is pretty much it
The Quinn Snyder element is one of those that I can't quite parse. Is he a good coach? My experience watching his Missouri teams was a resounding no! But then it's like the Utah years looked nice and he has that whole 'modern approach' thing...but I think the things that made him suck at Missouri also make him suck in Atlanta. In the most meatheaded of meatheady tones, I don't think Quinn can really can really command a room, get execution and buy in
As an aside, I've spent my whole life trained to hate the Knicks, but man, it is so fun to see Thibs living his best life. Jalen Brunson is pretty much the most amazing thibs-dust guard ever. He didn't need thibs-dust but it never hurts. Thibs and a cabal of stone cold Villanova dudes is just the best. Love it
Yeah I'm with you on Snyder. I never thought Utah was a particularly well-coached team (they always seemed to improve when their PG went down and Mitchell began handling the point).
Not to harp on it but handling a star player with a disruptive game who is totally fucking his team up is what Quin Snyder gets paid for.
I have no opinion on Snyder’s competence as a coach, but I’m not sure what any coach can do about a destructively dominant player other than not play him, which the front office might find unacceptable. Erik Spoelstra wouldn’t have that problem because Pat Riley would never put up with Trae’s BS and lack of effort on D.
Even Billy Donovan benched Zach. In this case there's an obvious face-saving gesture to be made: list him as questionable, play him 5 minutes as a starter, have the trainer walk over and give him an ostentatiously large ice pack for his hand. And certainly don't leave him in when it's clear he's listless and jogging up and down the court as he did for the 4th quarter. I checked the play-by-play: Snyder subbed him in at the very start of the 4th quarter and didn't take him out until the end.
Seems like Trae quit playing and Snyder quit coaching.
You have no argument from me. But Trae’s selfishness and lack of self-awareness makes him a problem all the time, not just for one game, and I’m not sure what a coach can do about that - other than, as I suggested, keeping him permanently glued to the bench. Zach isn’t a ton better, of course, but he does at least try on D from time to time, and I don’t think his teammates dislike him. His issue isn’t that he’s an a**hole, I think, but that he simply doesn’t have good instincts.
This is a COBY appreciation post. If Coby is not your favorite active NBA player, what is the matter with you? Did your mother not hug you as a child?
Coby is Kyrie evolved, 2.0, but without all the bullshit and in a totally lovable package. Coby is our gift for being saddled with Reinsdorf, Garpax, and AK all these years. Enjoy Coby like you enjoy Santa Claus and the first warm day of spring.
it was eerie to watch the mason dixon bulls stutter into-and-out-of the postseason holding pen in such a bullsian way. their janky rosters really are strange mirror images. rudderless teams but at least one has the ability to acknowledge it (though still sharing the inability to fix it)
the hawks play a truly flavorless and dismal brand of basketball. it’s like someone got a third hand description the d’antoni rockets and tried to recreate it
Also at least the Hawks best players are not over 30 and they are chasing the high from a deep playoff run. The Bulls cling to being in first place in January one year
This Bulls team has me so conflicted in the sense that I do genuinely like a bunch of these players. I hate that this is where we are and this organization, by design, is just very very hard to care about in a way where you feel the care will be definitely not be reciprocated
But then Coby is so easy to root for and it's awesome to see him have this moment. Demar giving him love during that postgame interview was just nice. Ayo going full speed and being awesome. AC being AC at least until the least situationally aware guy that I can possibly imagine does more dumb stuff. So many Javontes
I'm at the acceptance phase, this is the situation we are in - as fans - it sucks. I can go back to bargaining phase and say, hey at least Jerry Reinsdorf et al isn't John Fisher, but those kind of rationalizations are dumb. This org is garbage, but I do still enjoy watching players I like do cool stuff
Jimmy is out Friday, chances are that's a win. This sets up stuff for the worst imaginable timeline, where we are competitive (sliding scale) against the C's and this is all lather, rinse, repeat
Heat probably won that game until they began committing some (very un-Heatlean) mental gaffes in the last 4 minutes and Jimmy wasn't able to do anything to bail them out. Couple ways to read that but I actually think him not playing from the jump kind of helps that scenario: they're not waiting for superman.
The Bulls really have nobody they can pin to Bam and the Heat have like 5 identically sized guys they can throw at DeMar and Coby. I think the Heat win it in this battle of wounded badger vs. angry dog.
I dont know if I like the idea of him going off for multiple games. It may give the front office and bulls reddit validation that he's actually worth keeping
He's being kept regardless, so maybe his value is immaterial. But in my dreamland Bulls off-season where he gets packaged with LaVine, we need him to have a dreamland post-season.
Yeah, if he gets another contract, it'll definitely be a vet minimum. But my guess is he'll retire after this contract expires. It's not like he won't have made an insane amount of money already. He won't need an extra couple million just to make sure he can retire comfortably.
I thought Vuc sucked per usual. The only thing Hawks had working was Capela dunking on his head and Vuc looking around after. Also when Murray had that third quarter dunk it required a one of one to get posterized yet completely avoid contact, and Vuc is THAT DUDE
i really wonder what the actual revenue is for one game. like how is that really worth it for a billion dollar organization. and if it is worth it, why not just, yknow, build a team that can have like, oh idk, fkn 5 more home games
Yeah.I do enjoy competitive local basketball, but I've checked out on Chicago months ago. Sorry. And yes, the Hawks are trash.
That said, there is one question that's been vexing me. The Hawks Play-in elimination has the national press opining that the Trae Young experiment is at an end, or at least should be. I'm curious about your thoughts on a potential Lavine-Young swap. Even money. Each has a skill set that improves their respective team, at least in theory. And I must admit, a Murray - Lavine pairing looks better than Murray - Young ever did.
Thoughts?
Trae is an even worse defender than LaVine, and is arguably even more useless off the ball. I want no part of Trae Young here as wholesome as it would be to see him playing with his father Ayo.
Trae was doing some LaVine-level stat padding in the last 2 minutes last night, I don't know if it was more impressive to watch him do it or the way all recaps ignored it.
Why would we want Trae when we have the GOAT at PG locked into a super-cheap deal? Why would we want Trae anyway? He is not that good and requires a roster built to cater to his skills and deficits. We do not have that roster at all.
Ah the classic "deck chairs on the Titanic" aka "trash for trash" trade! If anything, this season proved the haters (scientists?) correct who have been saying that Zach and Trae do not help their teams win.
I probably have a slightly more positive view than the others who have responded so far. I think that trade would make both teams better since I think both guys would fit on the other team better. With that being said, neither of those guys would make their new teams THAT much better.
Like I think Trae on the Bulls with a rim-running center (sorry Vooch) and the Bulls' focus on defense would make Trae look better. The Bulls don't have any true point guards which Trae addresses, but they also have a million guards which Trae only adds to. So some shuffling would need to be done but I could see the Bulls being marginally better with Trae instead of Zach.
I think Zach fits better in Atlanta where he would play off-ball more and he'd be in a system that prioritizes playing faster and getting up a lot of threes. It would highlight his strengths while hopefully minimizing some of his weaknesses.
With all of that being said, it's still a dumb trade because it doesn't really make either team much better. The Bulls should still do everything they can to get rid of Zach, even if it's for a couple bad shorter-term contracts and a pick or two.
Well, thank you. I asked for an opinion, and you God damn gave me one.
JK. Thanks again.
What? If I didn't give you an opinion, please enlighten me and tell me what I gave.
No, you did. Thanks.
Okay. You said I did but then said "JK" so I was a little confused. 😂
Trae is such a weird case. You could imagine a scenario where in the right setting he might be an asset, but his size is just a massive massive problem. Maybe it's not even the size, the style of play on it's own is a problem. It wouldn't be a problem if he were able to hang defensively or at least play off the ball a bit more, but he's a heavy usage tiny guard that isn't flame-thrower-y enough to make up for all of that other stuff. At least at $$$ slot he occupies. It's like the thing with Dame to a degree
Part of it is that the pairing with Murray just doesn't work. The Hawks are better with one of them on and one of them off. Whether that's a Murray problem or a Trae problem isn't clear, but they're both ball dominant guys. If you put Trae on a good team with another ball dominant guy, the same thing happens
SA is the most frequently mentioned spot, and even there, I don't know. It would be fun for sure re Wemby stuff, but I still don't really like it. That team needs a real number two guy and a real perimeter playmaker. Even with Wemby they probably need one more plus perimeter defender to make Trae palatable. That's the problem with these sorts of guys
The Hawks definitely need to trade Trae, his teammates either froze him out or they quit on him or both last night. But given NBA economics, they likely will start shipping out everyone else. Which they're actually kind of set-up for: rebuilding the team around Trae with Jalen Johnson as the "young up and coming guy" isn't a reach. I don't think it will work but it isn't a reach.
As fun as it is to make fun of him Trae (like LaVine) actually has some elite-level skills. He really dominates NBA.com's advanced "passing" stats and the people following him aren't even really very close:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing?Season=2022-23&dir=D&sort=AST_TO_PASS_PCT_ADJ
So again there's probably an argument to be made for what they're about to do, but as a rule of thumb when everyone on the team hates one guy, it's usually the fault of the guy, not everyone else.
As far as the Bulls, they do not have the personnel for the circumstances and style that make Trae shine when he does and really no easy way to get them.
That play at the end of the half where Murray was beyond disgusted with Trae on that behind the back is pretty much it
The Quinn Snyder element is one of those that I can't quite parse. Is he a good coach? My experience watching his Missouri teams was a resounding no! But then it's like the Utah years looked nice and he has that whole 'modern approach' thing...but I think the things that made him suck at Missouri also make him suck in Atlanta. In the most meatheaded of meatheady tones, I don't think Quinn can really can really command a room, get execution and buy in
As an aside, I've spent my whole life trained to hate the Knicks, but man, it is so fun to see Thibs living his best life. Jalen Brunson is pretty much the most amazing thibs-dust guard ever. He didn't need thibs-dust but it never hurts. Thibs and a cabal of stone cold Villanova dudes is just the best. Love it
Yeah I'm with you on Snyder. I never thought Utah was a particularly well-coached team (they always seemed to improve when their PG went down and Mitchell began handling the point).
Not to harp on it but handling a star player with a disruptive game who is totally fucking his team up is what Quin Snyder gets paid for.
I have no opinion on Snyder’s competence as a coach, but I’m not sure what any coach can do about a destructively dominant player other than not play him, which the front office might find unacceptable. Erik Spoelstra wouldn’t have that problem because Pat Riley would never put up with Trae’s BS and lack of effort on D.
Even Billy Donovan benched Zach. In this case there's an obvious face-saving gesture to be made: list him as questionable, play him 5 minutes as a starter, have the trainer walk over and give him an ostentatiously large ice pack for his hand. And certainly don't leave him in when it's clear he's listless and jogging up and down the court as he did for the 4th quarter. I checked the play-by-play: Snyder subbed him in at the very start of the 4th quarter and didn't take him out until the end.
Seems like Trae quit playing and Snyder quit coaching.
You have no argument from me. But Trae’s selfishness and lack of self-awareness makes him a problem all the time, not just for one game, and I’m not sure what a coach can do about that - other than, as I suggested, keeping him permanently glued to the bench. Zach isn’t a ton better, of course, but he does at least try on D from time to time, and I don’t think his teammates dislike him. His issue isn’t that he’s an a**hole, I think, but that he simply doesn’t have good instincts.
Chuckling quietly to myself as to the size of Trey Young's BigAss Ice Pack.
Trainer: Here take this.
Trae Young: What? What is this?!
Trainer: I have been instructed to--
Trae Young: What the fuck is this, actually?
Trainer: We are trying to put you--
Trae Young: Is this some kind of sculpture?
Trainer: We were told to put you on ice.
zach is like kobe bryant compared to that piece of crap. one of the most sickening players in the league. i'd rather have keith bogans
This is a COBY appreciation post. If Coby is not your favorite active NBA player, what is the matter with you? Did your mother not hug you as a child?
Coby is Kyrie evolved, 2.0, but without all the bullshit and in a totally lovable package. Coby is our gift for being saddled with Reinsdorf, Garpax, and AK all these years. Enjoy Coby like you enjoy Santa Claus and the first warm day of spring.
Malachi Flynn put up 50 off the bench against the Hawks a couple weeks ago
I thought for sure that "Malachi Flynn" was made up until I just checked
In a loss!
Not in a do-or-die game and not with the syle, flair, and hair of one Alec Jacoby White.
Sir, please.
it was eerie to watch the mason dixon bulls stutter into-and-out-of the postseason holding pen in such a bullsian way. their janky rosters really are strange mirror images. rudderless teams but at least one has the ability to acknowledge it (though still sharing the inability to fix it)
the hawks play a truly flavorless and dismal brand of basketball. it’s like someone got a third hand description the d’antoni rockets and tried to recreate it
Also at least the Hawks best players are not over 30 and they are chasing the high from a deep playoff run. The Bulls cling to being in first place in January one year
This Bulls team has me so conflicted in the sense that I do genuinely like a bunch of these players. I hate that this is where we are and this organization, by design, is just very very hard to care about in a way where you feel the care will be definitely not be reciprocated
But then Coby is so easy to root for and it's awesome to see him have this moment. Demar giving him love during that postgame interview was just nice. Ayo going full speed and being awesome. AC being AC at least until the least situationally aware guy that I can possibly imagine does more dumb stuff. So many Javontes
I'm at the acceptance phase, this is the situation we are in - as fans - it sucks. I can go back to bargaining phase and say, hey at least Jerry Reinsdorf et al isn't John Fisher, but those kind of rationalizations are dumb. This org is garbage, but I do still enjoy watching players I like do cool stuff
Jimmy is out Friday, chances are that's a win. This sets up stuff for the worst imaginable timeline, where we are competitive (sliding scale) against the C's and this is all lather, rinse, repeat
Heat probably won that game until they began committing some (very un-Heatlean) mental gaffes in the last 4 minutes and Jimmy wasn't able to do anything to bail them out. Couple ways to read that but I actually think him not playing from the jump kind of helps that scenario: they're not waiting for superman.
The Bulls really have nobody they can pin to Bam and the Heat have like 5 identically sized guys they can throw at DeMar and Coby. I think the Heat win it in this battle of wounded badger vs. angry dog.
Bam has really gotten to the point where he's underrated. He does so much stuff for them
It's going to be a grind-out, who can score kind of thing. Herro / Coby hotness will the x-factor
In one of their matchups I remember Bam missing like seven chippies
Then again this was December which might as well be 7 years ago and lost in a sea of hazy bulls basketball memories
The only thing I liked about this game was Coby getting some national recognition.
Secondary was Vuc having a decent game... Maybe his value goes up?
I wish deebo had a bad game so we can keep him on a vet min (pipe dream lol)
Vuc could do a lot for his value by getting hot for the next 5 games, that's sorta a best case scenario.
I dont know if I like the idea of him going off for multiple games. It may give the front office and bulls reddit validation that he's actually worth keeping
He's being kept regardless, so maybe his value is immaterial. But in my dreamland Bulls off-season where he gets packaged with LaVine, we need him to have a dreamland post-season.
Or he has a good five games and AK gives him a secret extension!
I’m down for the cynicism, but I don’t think there’s any way vuc gets another nba contract outside of roster filler.
Yeah, if he gets another contract, it'll definitely be a vet minimum. But my guess is he'll retire after this contract expires. It's not like he won't have made an insane amount of money already. He won't need an extra couple million just to make sure he can retire comfortably.
I thought Vuc sucked per usual. The only thing Hawks had working was Capela dunking on his head and Vuc looking around after. Also when Murray had that third quarter dunk it required a one of one to get posterized yet completely avoid contact, and Vuc is THAT DUDE
Also shot like shit from three. Even the broadcast was saying 'these aren't even close'
Doris Burke was not available!
just confirmed that not only is Butler out but Rozier is out too
I can't help but think they just are realizing it's not worth it to push for playoffs when Butler's gonna be out weeks
AK's plan is working! Except they have to face the Celtics
by throwing tomorrow's game, the Heat will jump into the lottery and if they don't reach top-4 will draft between 12-14th after a coin flip.
the Bulls will no longer be in the lottery and go from drafting 11th to 15th
BUT, two more home gates, and lower rookie scale contract
11 or 15 in this draft seems pretty irrelevant. However, I will not enjoy being swept by the insufferable Celtics (fanbase).
i really wonder what the actual revenue is for one game. like how is that really worth it for a billion dollar organization. and if it is worth it, why not just, yknow, build a team that can have like, oh idk, fkn 5 more home games
It's a make-the-play-in-tournament or miss-the-play-in-tournament league.