It will be interesting to see Lavine's effort level (especially on defense) after he comes back and how long it may last after watching the team the past 9 games.
@Doug LaVine ain't coming back. He can't. This team looks .500 ish without him. With him, killing the vibes btw, the Bulls looked like a 25-win team.
@yfbb Rickey O'Donnell had some interesting things to say about Vooch as a ball mover during this stretch. I know it kills you when Vooch plays well. But I think this was what Vooch was bitching about earlier in the season. It wasnt about shots per se. The Bulls agreed to run the offense we see now. Flight 8 had other ideas. Vooch is making nice plays as a ball mover even when his shot sucks. Connecting guys matter in the NBA.
LaVine clearly wasn't with the program, sucked the life outta everyone and has to go. You can't risk him thinking he's Kobe when he's barely been Coby this year.
I'm not sure anyone thought Vooch couldn't do what he's doing now. It's more a matter of, is what he's doing now good enough to warrant paying him $20 million a year into his mid-30s?
What Vooch is doing now is what he did in Orlando. His Orlando teams were barely playoff material and that's about what this team looks like. The NBA has shifted to where interior defense is incredibly important. I'm not sure Vooch being Jokic-lite makes up for his poor interior defense. At least not at his age and with what he's being paid.
The author of the blog post absolutely thought he couldn't do what he's doing. Vooch isn't asking to be the number 1 option. He's just asking to run a motion offense.
The rim protection by bigs is overrated. Is Myles Turner suddenly bad at basketball? He helms one of the worst defenses ever. The Bulls are trying to lockdown the perimeter and see what happens. I'm not saying it's great but there are other ways to get good defense. Also, Vooch isn't that bad. The contract is bad but yfbb has always not liked Vooch. Contract be damned.
All I've said is he's not that bad. The Bulls aren't going to contend anytime soon. You need professionals and Vooch is a pro. That's all I'm saying.
Ultimately it probably just comes down to what we place our priorities in. You and I agree this team isn't going to contend anytime soon. In my mind, if we're not contending, why overpay for a mid-30s center who clearly doesn't want to be part of the team unless he's getting his way? Get some young guys on the roster and see what they can turn into.
There are a plethora of veteran professionals you can sign for far less than $20 million a year. I have nothing against Vooch and I certainly don't blame him for swindling AK out of piles of money, but I just don't see the point of having him on this roster. Either build a team that is focused on developing young talent (with some veterans to help that aren't being paid gobs of money), or try to build a serious playoff team.
Either way, Vooch doesn't really fit either of those. The only playoff team I can think of with a center as bad at paint protection as Vooch is the Nuggets. Luckily for them, Jokic is so incredible offensively that it makes up for his poor defense.
Jokic was an above-average rim protector last year.
I also disagree with the framing of the Vooch dispute. Vooch stated playing through him, not necessarily getting more shots. Sans LaVine, the Bulls have been playing through Vooch, letting young guys get burn and have a decent offense instead of bottom of the league.
The $20mil/yr wasn't bad per se. The third year was inexcusable. You still need vets to help the young guys. Vooch is performing the role you want; which is making a lot of high-level decisions and letting young guys develop around him. The key will be getting rid of him before the third year. With cap increases, maybe the $20mil will be easier to take for some other team.
Whether he should be paid $20 million a year or his contract should have only been for two years, you and I both agree his contract wasn't good. I haven't said anything about Vooch wanting more shots, so not sure how to respond to that one.
But again, ultimately it just comes down to priorities. My priorities are developing this team's young players and surrounding them with vets who want to help develop them and model a good work ethic.
I've never seen any stories of Vooch taking young guys under his wing, unlike guys like DeMar and AC. Those two guys also come out and play their hearts out every night. Vooch has looked uninterested for a huge amount of his time in Chicago. While I understand he feels he hasn't been used properly here, coming out and not giving a fuck during games isn't exactly going to teach the young guys the right thing.
So I don't really understand keeping Vooch around. He's paid too much, he doesn't seem interested in helping the young guys develop, etc.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Vooch is a big part of why the young guys can florish (at least right now). DeMar is his college teammate and best friend (if reports are to be believed). Let DDR handle the young guys off the court. Vooch is making sure they don't have to do too much on it.
Yeah, Vooch sulking looked bad earlier this season. Yeah, he totally looked checked out. Since LaVine has been gone, Vooch is super-engaged.
Vooch and DDR being good passers allow Coby to get a lot of catch and shoot looks. Those catch and shoot opportunities then open up space for Coby to get downhill. Vooch (and Drummond) doing all the rebounding lets Pat be a 3-and-D guy.
Vooch might not be vocal and out front but his play lately has been a positive for the young guys. Without him (or with a player that isn't as skilled) the young guys would have to do too much, too soon. We've seen how that turns out around here (Lauri nods, aggressively).
counterpoint: screw Vuc! he's not doing anything particularly good, even without LaVine. Just touching the ball a lot more and shooting a lot more.
Last 9 games with this "renaissance" he has a 51.5% True Shooting. His career trajectory is still heading downwards and it's insane this bad level of play is actually going to be the best part of a 3 year contract and even more insane that he believes he deserved more touches
But we're stuck with him so I'm trying to find some solace. As long as teams are still respecting him a little bit he can open up passing opportunities, and he's certainly a better decisionmaker than LaVine. Like you said a professional. As long as he is indulged like a star though lol
There's more to basketball than just shooting. I didn't mention that either. Neither did Ricky at SB Nation. It's not about "deserved" either. It seems clear that the offense we see now is the offense that the Bulls wanted to run all along. Flight 8 derailed that. Vooch's comments last night further cement the idea that Vooch was beefing at Zach. It was never really about Vooch's shooting.
That offense still isn't that good and Vuc isn't playing well. So it's not that I am upset when Vuc plays well, I'm upset that he's playing poorly because he has the second highest usage on the team.
I agree LaVine is worse than Vuc, he's a negative impact. Vuc is more neutral impact but talks and is paid like he's some huge offensive positive. And maybe Vuc is a shitty teammate if he alienates the max player (who is also a shitty teammate)
and this is all offense-based, which is part of why Vuc receives so much scrutiny: he's a bad defender getting worse, so he really needs to be special offensively to make up for it
I have given up on that quality of play, but will certainly feel triggered when people say "gotta hand it to Vuc" or that anyone was wrong to criticize him
Vooch isn't playing particularly well. He is being a good role player and playing within the framework of the offense. Quick ball movement, attacking closeouts, and screening quickly after ball reversal are the keys to the bulls offense right now, and Vooch is simply not harming that. In the Bulls current run, Vooch has shot >50% 3 times, 40-49% 3 times, and <40% 3 times. Vuc's TS% over the current streak is 51.5% (51% overall on the season). That's his worst since 2017. It's not that he's bad. He's just not 20mil good.
I didn't think Coby White had this in him. He and Patrick Williams are having impacts that are finally materializing quantifiably from an on/off standpoint. To me, this is the only thing that really, actually matters given all of the outstanding questions about guys who aren't Coby White and Patrick Williams.
Up until this point, his physical limitations are always something that biased me against him. But, to his credit, he's a legitimate MIP candidate and I think, given his defense and consistent playmaking (assists are up, turnovers aren't a big issue, and he's playing a ton of minutes) this year, stays that way--even when the shooting cools off.
Sorry for the length, but legitimately optimistic for the first time in a while.
The sample size and eye-test is strong enough now to realize we are looking at something fundamentally different. That also means it's time to let go of some negative story lines. No need to trash wins against ailing or tired teams; all teams are ailing and tired. Was Vuc 'begging for more touches in an unsavory fashion' or was he just (rightfully) effin sick of the Zach (and sometimes just as tired of the isolation Demar) show. Were Coby and PW bad-to-below average, or just stuck in minor roles with low usage? Was Billy catering to star players, or sabotaged by them?
(I still won't give AKME a break; they sit on their hands and spout platitudes way too much for my taste).
Looking forward, I see an optimistic path (though it will take AKME savvy).
For starters, let's take them at their word and by their actions and assume they will NOT tear things down to the studs. What does that mean in light of their recent play:
- The Bulls suddenly have some interesting young players in Coby, PW and Ayo. If PW cuts a reasonable deal, they'll all be on GREAT contracts (as is Caruso)....
- Caruso and DeMar stick. With his contract, talent and team focus, Caruso is very valuable. He also won't get you a pick that garners you anything more than mid-first(s), ie Dalen Terry-types. Keeping him on a next contract may be an issue, but cross that when you get there. DeMar won't get you much straight up. But if he won't reasonably extend (more below), he's a packageable contract at the trade deadline. To tear things truly down, you need Thunder/Jazz returns, otherwise you get stuck in a painful rebuild like Detroit.
- Trade Zach now -- target aggregateable $20M contracts and a pick or swap if you can get it. Look for mid-rotation players and expirings if you can. Rui and Reaves/DLo is fine. Huerter/Harrison Barnes. Detroit Bogdanovic and Joe Harris. Capturing young talent like Herro and Robinson feels like a stretch, but you never know. No stars, but useful pieces in all those deals.
- I'd bring DDR back if the contract fits. I think two years at $50M is fine; 3 at $60 is pushing it lengthwise; anything at $30M+-per year is too expensive. He's got unique skills that should age ok that he's shown ALSO fit into what the Bulls are doing. Keep him around if it makes sense. If you can't extend him reasonably soon, he's an expiring.
- At that point, you have a bunch of reasonable contracts, at least some expiring, and a bunch of pick and swap options to dangle. Now or later, turn a couple of expirings + picks and swaps into a legitimate 1A. How about expiring Derozan and expiring Joe Harris plus picks and swaps to the Jazz for Lauri? Etc. etc. Take your time and look for a true, young star. Would be great to have a Nets-like team from a few years ago that 1A stars asking for trades would actually want to go to and that would have a roster they could compete with.
IMO, these are pieces and moves that keep this team Top 6 minimum with potential significant upside. Megastars are no longer taking their teams to championships, see: Luka, Embid. Lebron and Durant are old and need a team around them. Tatum's a beast, but he's not doing it alone. Wemby is a few years away. (Jokic is arguably the exception, but also has a perfect roster around him). There's a window for a mid-young/experienced roster, with an aggressive style of play, and a defensive mindset to make some noise. Add a top-line start by surrendering picks but without decimating the roster and it gets even more interesting.
For now, it's fun to watch games and root for the Bulls again. As for what's next, I see a path that avoids both mediocrity (or just plain bad) as well as a tear-down without a massive pick haul that would cause 4-5 years of real pain.
I heard a few of the chuggo boys post-game say that they shouldn't "sell low" on LaVine now and that a Barnes+Huerter return from the Kings would be that. I would love that trade right now lol
There's always chess in the NBA, success gets scouted and you have to adjust and score or play a different way to get the same result. After 9 games and a few repeats in that span (Milwaukee, Miami), the opponents definitely have scouting reports on the Watchabulls and I think you can see the results (which are pretty good).
In the 2nd of two straight home games for the Heat, Jimmy Butler CLEARLY said he was going to defend Coby White which is both scary and should be incredibly flattering. How many players actually think they can hold a guy who just lit them up on scoreless and then try? Jordan > Kobe > Jimmy. He almost did too. Every time Coby touched the ball the other Heat defenders cleared out and Jimmy's eyes lit up, you could see it on TV. He held him to what, 2 field goals through 3 quarters? Coby managed to adjust in the 4th quarter, which is great, but obviously Jimmy takes the game winning shot and nails it.
Last night I noticed that the Sixers, like the Heat and I think nearly everyone we've played lately, start to double the ballhandler (usually Coby but sometimes DeMar) about 30 feet out both in the clutch and at random intervals. I thought to myself that this must be in the scouting report, and I have no stats to back it up but it seems the Bulls usually hit the open man when the pressure comes. Then Coby turned it over trying to split the defenders, like MikeDC noted in the last post, and I realize maybe my memory isn't as good as I think it is (I'm also aware the goal isn't necessarily a turnover, but to eat up a possession and force a bad shot, so you sort of have to be looking for it).
It's something to keep an eye on, because elite-level defenses are doing it, both situationally and during called defenses when they're trying to pull the Bulls out of a scoring rhythm. And we saw it work pretty well there for them.
In regard to Vuc and touches/shots, I actually feel like his complaining (which unfortunately has devolved into pouting at times) stems from a desire to win, not simply to "get his" -- he feels the offense flows better with him than with the ball sticking with Zach as he messes around trying to go one-on-one every other possession.
I can't say he's totally wrong about that, especially from a Zach perspective. I know the feeling of playing with guys like Zach in pickup basketball games and it's totally emotionally deflating.
But Vuc isn't totally right either. Both he and DeMar are team-first players but tend to overinflate their conception of "the best thing for the team right now is for me to dominate the ball." So failings aren't about selfishness but really a lack of self-awareness and lack of trust in teammates. Prime MJ didn't always trust his teammates but had strong self-awareness of himself actually being the best scoring option in every pivotal situation.
But Zach has basically no self-awareness at all. Win or lose last night, at the end of tight games it continues to be refreshing to not have to watch Zach try long, contested 2's and dribble the ball off his knees trying to drive through traffic.
A small percentage accept doing the dirty work and don’t think they’re meant for more. I’d say about 90% of NBA players think that if the offense runs through them, the team will win more games. Some percentage of that 90% at least accept that there is someone “currently” better than them they should defer to.
Think of Andrew Wiggins, D’Angelo Russell, Karl-Anthony Towns, and even Zach LaVine. They all thought they were the best offensive players on their teams (only KAT was right, but he’s also not Jokic ). When Wiggins and Russell got on teams with all-time greats, they finally accepted taking a backseat. Zach and Vuc have never played with a players that demand that sort of respect, so they think they are the best option. (I’d say DeRozan is the closest to that, of course, but he’s also not a Hall of Famer, and while he’s the best on the team, he’s not multiple time champion, MVP, nor perennial All Star.)
When you read the constant references to “multiple-time All-Stars” and the unearned respect they get from local media, it’s not surprising.
He just does it during media day, which then forces TV, websites, etc to use the same photos all year long. Last year he did it with huge Bob Marley-sized dreadlocks, this year he did an emo cut. He cuts it off the next day after the photographs are taken lol
Yeah, I would like to revisit both the Thibs firing and the Jimmy trade. In both cases, I had eventually come around to the idea that there was no path forward even though I loved both of them. But so much of that is narrative driven and I wonder if there was actually a way to keep them on the team. Obviously, history has vindicated Jimmy Butler as a team centerpiece. But the vibes were off after that awful three alphas season.
To be fair, Jimmy burned through a few teams before he found his place. This isn't meant to be a "no Bulls fault," but he's a lot. I was sort of sick of him by the end but now after enduring the Zach Show I miss him dearly.
Sure. The point is, he's not the easiest personality and it was no longer working with the Bulls. I didn't think, at least. That's not blaming him, exactly, it's just a fact. There are a whole lot of players that would've existed more easily on any of those teams doing dumb stuff. Take Demar, for example.
It is amazing now to note that in each decision Reinsdorf made the worst choice possible and came down on the side of replaceable cogs that he wound up firing pretty soon anyway.
Jimmy admitted that he compelled them to pick between him and Fred. It's mindboggling that you got a guy like this and picked Fred Fucking Hoiberg over him. That's insane. That's the karmic coin flipping back for Portland taking Sam Bowie over Jordan. Hopefully we've paid that debt and we're clean now because Fred over Jimmy is going to be laughed at when one of them is enshrined in the Hall of Fame and the other one buys a ticket. How many times do you pick a coach over a player and then just go ahead and fire that same coach like a year later?
Re: Thibs, it's just fascinating that Reinsdorf's priorities (which his manservants can even make sound noble) end up creating not a stable business but a system of backstabbing toadies. I can't believe I actually saw all these NBA teams handed over to quants and math geniuses while the most successful team of my youth resembled a made-for-TV miniseries on the Borgias.
Like with Jimmy, the toadies Reinsdorf picked here wound up lasting like another couple of years before he fired them for incompetence. Really not much data to pick from — there have been 3 GMs since I was born I guess — but it's probably not a coincidence that his management and coaches have all hated each other. That leads one to believe that Reinsdorf, like the great tyrants from history, intentionally stokes hostility among his minions. Or maybe it was a coincidence because it looks like the only coach Pax didn't try to undermine or bully (and sometimes physically attack) was Skiles, someone I think he was wisely afraid of picking a fight with. I would be.
In the Zach-less 9 games, Coby is 25 - 6 - 6 on great efficiency. That's All-Star level for sure... it'd be fun to try to get him into the All-Star game.
This stuff from DeMar in Cowley's piece yesterday is pretty incredible:
> “I’ve played for Dwane Casey, he was coach of the year,” DeRozan said. “I played for Gregg Popovich, arguably one of the greatest coaches of all time, and playing for Billy, my personal opinion, he’s up there with those two guys just from the respect, the effort that you get from him. Even more so, he’s a guy you want to go out there and gain success, not just for yourself but for him, as well.
> “The love and respect that I have for Billy is right up there with what I had with the other two guys I mentioned. I’ve been lucky my entire career to have coaches like these guys. I tell a lot of the young players that you don’t really know what you have. To have such a great personable coach, hard-working coach in Billy, don’t ever take that for granted because it’s not always greener on the other side.”
I won't bother to find it but Cowley did recently say the LaVine-Donovan rift was irreparable
he's usually dumbly exacerbating such things, so I won't assume it's actually that far along (though Zach's play is more important and he's checked out), it's just funny to see that in contrast to KC Johnson barging in like the Kool-Aid Man "ZACH IS ENGAGED AND PROFESSIONAL"
"We didn't feel it was necessary to make any further moves during the season. In season trades rarely improve teams and we feel that Torrey's return and the continued development of our young players will lift the Bulls in the second half of the season."
Vuc is a big part of what is going right with this team now. It's still true that even if he played exactly like he has the last 9 games for the whole season, he's still probably a little overpaid. But they have restructured their offense around him, and most of the deep ways the team has changed map onto the ways in which he personally has been more productive over this stretch. The team is grabbing more offensive boards, turning it over less, and generating way more assists (like, they've gone from 30th in team assists/g with Zach to what would be 8th without him). So has Vuc personally, and it's happened precisely as the offense has become oriented around him as an initiator. Hard to think that's just a coincidence.
Thinking big picture, it is not possible to think about this team big picture. They have no coherent goals against which to judge them. But the young guys have looked much more comfortable since Vuc seemingly and maybe by default won the argument about how the team should play on offense. He's probably a $14M player making $20M. Is it worth it to overpay Vuc by 20-30M over three years if it means they also get better versions of their top 10 picks? Personally I think yes because the opportunity cost is not clear to me, even if I continue to marvel at just how obscene were the conditions of Vuc's initial arrival on the team.
I also think people are a little underrating how well they've played over this stretch. They've really played more like a 45-48 win team than a 41 win team. And while they are shooting the ball well, and that will come back to earth, they've also faced a pretty significant headwind. Alex has been their best player this year, and he actually hasn't played that well over this stretch. Given that it's actually a little remarkable how well they've defended lately.
Vuc's defense has been better this year than his previous Bulls years, especially this last stretch.
One thing I do wonder about that is how much his defensive performance is tied to having other big slow plodding guys. Obviously Embiid feasted on him, but Embiid feasts on everyone, and you are still better off having Vuc out there against Embiid/BroLo/Jokic type guys. That's probably his best use defensively, relatively speaking.
Where we had our two worst losses were where teams went small and quick (Denver when Jokic got ejected) and the Heat game, where they kept pulling Vuc out to the perimeter and killing us on the boards (think Granville pointed this out well). Also, having Dalen Terry guard him made Kevin Love look like he was 25 again.
All things considered, I'd rather have Isaiah Hartenstein
Totally nuts that we have like 1 power forward option off the bench (probably 0 now that Craig is out until February). The Lakers have Vanderbilt, Rui, Wood and Taurean Prince aside from Lebron and AD. If they're having Love pop off as the C in a small line-up against them and Jimmy hunting a flat-footed center in the PNR (which is not a problem they have with AD but let's pretend), the Lakers have like 5 options to pick from. And I want to emphasize that nearly all of those bench guys were available in the last 12 months for cheap aside from probably Vanderbilt (mainly because he was already on such a cheap contract). Probably anyone could have gone out and gotten one or two or all of them.
In this scenario (an incredibly common one, "going small" is not exactly a gimmick or innovation from the Grinnell college playbook) a bunch of our supposed bigs are pretty much useless. Sanogo looks like just an undersized C to me, I'm not seeing him sticking with Love or switching on to Jimmy. Terry Taylor is a fun little player but he's 6'5". For years the end of the bench has been a problem, the new regime didn't fix it and we're just carrying players that have no real shot at ever taking the court in a meaningful game.
Which brings us back to Craig. Caruso is probably going to miss a minimum of a 1/3rd of games, which means there is now a likely prospect of Julian Phillips being the first F off the bench in a number of games going forward (not that Caruso is a F but that's what's going to happen anyway). That's not good. A minimum salary player going down shouldn't lead to this kind of Plan B.
I like the tweet screenshots Matt. Are you using an outside website / app for that? The reason I ask is I have a chrome extension to do mine but the resolution is a lot worse than what it looks like you have.
It will be interesting to see Lavine's effort level (especially on defense) after he comes back and how long it may last after watching the team the past 9 games.
Zach will have a handful of possessions, maybe a whole quarter where he looks like he's paying attention and making an effort on defense.
And like it always does, that will end abruptly and he'll revert to being a dog on that end.
@Doug LaVine ain't coming back. He can't. This team looks .500 ish without him. With him, killing the vibes btw, the Bulls looked like a 25-win team.
@yfbb Rickey O'Donnell had some interesting things to say about Vooch as a ball mover during this stretch. I know it kills you when Vooch plays well. But I think this was what Vooch was bitching about earlier in the season. It wasnt about shots per se. The Bulls agreed to run the offense we see now. Flight 8 had other ideas. Vooch is making nice plays as a ball mover even when his shot sucks. Connecting guys matter in the NBA.
LaVine clearly wasn't with the program, sucked the life outta everyone and has to go. You can't risk him thinking he's Kobe when he's barely been Coby this year.
I'm not sure anyone thought Vooch couldn't do what he's doing now. It's more a matter of, is what he's doing now good enough to warrant paying him $20 million a year into his mid-30s?
What Vooch is doing now is what he did in Orlando. His Orlando teams were barely playoff material and that's about what this team looks like. The NBA has shifted to where interior defense is incredibly important. I'm not sure Vooch being Jokic-lite makes up for his poor interior defense. At least not at his age and with what he's being paid.
The author of the blog post absolutely thought he couldn't do what he's doing. Vooch isn't asking to be the number 1 option. He's just asking to run a motion offense.
The rim protection by bigs is overrated. Is Myles Turner suddenly bad at basketball? He helms one of the worst defenses ever. The Bulls are trying to lockdown the perimeter and see what happens. I'm not saying it's great but there are other ways to get good defense. Also, Vooch isn't that bad. The contract is bad but yfbb has always not liked Vooch. Contract be damned.
All I've said is he's not that bad. The Bulls aren't going to contend anytime soon. You need professionals and Vooch is a pro. That's all I'm saying.
Ultimately it probably just comes down to what we place our priorities in. You and I agree this team isn't going to contend anytime soon. In my mind, if we're not contending, why overpay for a mid-30s center who clearly doesn't want to be part of the team unless he's getting his way? Get some young guys on the roster and see what they can turn into.
There are a plethora of veteran professionals you can sign for far less than $20 million a year. I have nothing against Vooch and I certainly don't blame him for swindling AK out of piles of money, but I just don't see the point of having him on this roster. Either build a team that is focused on developing young talent (with some veterans to help that aren't being paid gobs of money), or try to build a serious playoff team.
Either way, Vooch doesn't really fit either of those. The only playoff team I can think of with a center as bad at paint protection as Vooch is the Nuggets. Luckily for them, Jokic is so incredible offensively that it makes up for his poor defense.
Jokic was an above-average rim protector last year.
I also disagree with the framing of the Vooch dispute. Vooch stated playing through him, not necessarily getting more shots. Sans LaVine, the Bulls have been playing through Vooch, letting young guys get burn and have a decent offense instead of bottom of the league.
The $20mil/yr wasn't bad per se. The third year was inexcusable. You still need vets to help the young guys. Vooch is performing the role you want; which is making a lot of high-level decisions and letting young guys develop around him. The key will be getting rid of him before the third year. With cap increases, maybe the $20mil will be easier to take for some other team.
Whether he should be paid $20 million a year or his contract should have only been for two years, you and I both agree his contract wasn't good. I haven't said anything about Vooch wanting more shots, so not sure how to respond to that one.
But again, ultimately it just comes down to priorities. My priorities are developing this team's young players and surrounding them with vets who want to help develop them and model a good work ethic.
I've never seen any stories of Vooch taking young guys under his wing, unlike guys like DeMar and AC. Those two guys also come out and play their hearts out every night. Vooch has looked uninterested for a huge amount of his time in Chicago. While I understand he feels he hasn't been used properly here, coming out and not giving a fuck during games isn't exactly going to teach the young guys the right thing.
So I don't really understand keeping Vooch around. He's paid too much, he doesn't seem interested in helping the young guys develop, etc.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Vooch is a big part of why the young guys can florish (at least right now). DeMar is his college teammate and best friend (if reports are to be believed). Let DDR handle the young guys off the court. Vooch is making sure they don't have to do too much on it.
Yeah, Vooch sulking looked bad earlier this season. Yeah, he totally looked checked out. Since LaVine has been gone, Vooch is super-engaged.
Vooch and DDR being good passers allow Coby to get a lot of catch and shoot looks. Those catch and shoot opportunities then open up space for Coby to get downhill. Vooch (and Drummond) doing all the rebounding lets Pat be a 3-and-D guy.
Vooch might not be vocal and out front but his play lately has been a positive for the young guys. Without him (or with a player that isn't as skilled) the young guys would have to do too much, too soon. We've seen how that turns out around here (Lauri nods, aggressively).
$20M for a $12M player is bad per se.
when you're a luxury tax avoider especially so
counterpoint: screw Vuc! he's not doing anything particularly good, even without LaVine. Just touching the ball a lot more and shooting a lot more.
Last 9 games with this "renaissance" he has a 51.5% True Shooting. His career trajectory is still heading downwards and it's insane this bad level of play is actually going to be the best part of a 3 year contract and even more insane that he believes he deserved more touches
But we're stuck with him so I'm trying to find some solace. As long as teams are still respecting him a little bit he can open up passing opportunities, and he's certainly a better decisionmaker than LaVine. Like you said a professional. As long as he is indulged like a star though lol
There's more to basketball than just shooting. I didn't mention that either. Neither did Ricky at SB Nation. It's not about "deserved" either. It seems clear that the offense we see now is the offense that the Bulls wanted to run all along. Flight 8 derailed that. Vooch's comments last night further cement the idea that Vooch was beefing at Zach. It was never really about Vooch's shooting.
That offense still isn't that good and Vuc isn't playing well. So it's not that I am upset when Vuc plays well, I'm upset that he's playing poorly because he has the second highest usage on the team.
I agree LaVine is worse than Vuc, he's a negative impact. Vuc is more neutral impact but talks and is paid like he's some huge offensive positive. And maybe Vuc is a shitty teammate if he alienates the max player (who is also a shitty teammate)
and this is all offense-based, which is part of why Vuc receives so much scrutiny: he's a bad defender getting worse, so he really needs to be special offensively to make up for it
I have given up on that quality of play, but will certainly feel triggered when people say "gotta hand it to Vuc" or that anyone was wrong to criticize him
Oh yay! Vucevic passes the ball (and LaVine doesn’t)! Really gotta hand it to Vucevic.
This team is playing better because White is playing 5-10 minutes more than previously and playing a LOT better. It’s not Vuc; it’s Coby.
Ok. *shrug*
Vooch isn't playing particularly well. He is being a good role player and playing within the framework of the offense. Quick ball movement, attacking closeouts, and screening quickly after ball reversal are the keys to the bulls offense right now, and Vooch is simply not harming that. In the Bulls current run, Vooch has shot >50% 3 times, 40-49% 3 times, and <40% 3 times. Vuc's TS% over the current streak is 51.5% (51% overall on the season). That's his worst since 2017. It's not that he's bad. He's just not 20mil good.
I didn't think Coby White had this in him. He and Patrick Williams are having impacts that are finally materializing quantifiably from an on/off standpoint. To me, this is the only thing that really, actually matters given all of the outstanding questions about guys who aren't Coby White and Patrick Williams.
Up until this point, his physical limitations are always something that biased me against him. But, to his credit, he's a legitimate MIP candidate and I think, given his defense and consistent playmaking (assists are up, turnovers aren't a big issue, and he's playing a ton of minutes) this year, stays that way--even when the shooting cools off.
Sorry for the length, but legitimately optimistic for the first time in a while.
The sample size and eye-test is strong enough now to realize we are looking at something fundamentally different. That also means it's time to let go of some negative story lines. No need to trash wins against ailing or tired teams; all teams are ailing and tired. Was Vuc 'begging for more touches in an unsavory fashion' or was he just (rightfully) effin sick of the Zach (and sometimes just as tired of the isolation Demar) show. Were Coby and PW bad-to-below average, or just stuck in minor roles with low usage? Was Billy catering to star players, or sabotaged by them?
(I still won't give AKME a break; they sit on their hands and spout platitudes way too much for my taste).
Looking forward, I see an optimistic path (though it will take AKME savvy).
For starters, let's take them at their word and by their actions and assume they will NOT tear things down to the studs. What does that mean in light of their recent play:
- The Bulls suddenly have some interesting young players in Coby, PW and Ayo. If PW cuts a reasonable deal, they'll all be on GREAT contracts (as is Caruso)....
- Caruso and DeMar stick. With his contract, talent and team focus, Caruso is very valuable. He also won't get you a pick that garners you anything more than mid-first(s), ie Dalen Terry-types. Keeping him on a next contract may be an issue, but cross that when you get there. DeMar won't get you much straight up. But if he won't reasonably extend (more below), he's a packageable contract at the trade deadline. To tear things truly down, you need Thunder/Jazz returns, otherwise you get stuck in a painful rebuild like Detroit.
- Trade Zach now -- target aggregateable $20M contracts and a pick or swap if you can get it. Look for mid-rotation players and expirings if you can. Rui and Reaves/DLo is fine. Huerter/Harrison Barnes. Detroit Bogdanovic and Joe Harris. Capturing young talent like Herro and Robinson feels like a stretch, but you never know. No stars, but useful pieces in all those deals.
- I'd bring DDR back if the contract fits. I think two years at $50M is fine; 3 at $60 is pushing it lengthwise; anything at $30M+-per year is too expensive. He's got unique skills that should age ok that he's shown ALSO fit into what the Bulls are doing. Keep him around if it makes sense. If you can't extend him reasonably soon, he's an expiring.
- At that point, you have a bunch of reasonable contracts, at least some expiring, and a bunch of pick and swap options to dangle. Now or later, turn a couple of expirings + picks and swaps into a legitimate 1A. How about expiring Derozan and expiring Joe Harris plus picks and swaps to the Jazz for Lauri? Etc. etc. Take your time and look for a true, young star. Would be great to have a Nets-like team from a few years ago that 1A stars asking for trades would actually want to go to and that would have a roster they could compete with.
IMO, these are pieces and moves that keep this team Top 6 minimum with potential significant upside. Megastars are no longer taking their teams to championships, see: Luka, Embid. Lebron and Durant are old and need a team around them. Tatum's a beast, but he's not doing it alone. Wemby is a few years away. (Jokic is arguably the exception, but also has a perfect roster around him). There's a window for a mid-young/experienced roster, with an aggressive style of play, and a defensive mindset to make some noise. Add a top-line start by surrendering picks but without decimating the roster and it gets even more interesting.
For now, it's fun to watch games and root for the Bulls again. As for what's next, I see a path that avoids both mediocrity (or just plain bad) as well as a tear-down without a massive pick haul that would cause 4-5 years of real pain.
Let's see how it plays out.
I heard a few of the chuggo boys post-game say that they shouldn't "sell low" on LaVine now and that a Barnes+Huerter return from the Kings would be that. I would love that trade right now lol
I'd love Huerter/Barnes for Zach
if AKME dont want to rebuild, they're not gonna do much better than getting two solid players on decent contracts
There's always chess in the NBA, success gets scouted and you have to adjust and score or play a different way to get the same result. After 9 games and a few repeats in that span (Milwaukee, Miami), the opponents definitely have scouting reports on the Watchabulls and I think you can see the results (which are pretty good).
In the 2nd of two straight home games for the Heat, Jimmy Butler CLEARLY said he was going to defend Coby White which is both scary and should be incredibly flattering. How many players actually think they can hold a guy who just lit them up on scoreless and then try? Jordan > Kobe > Jimmy. He almost did too. Every time Coby touched the ball the other Heat defenders cleared out and Jimmy's eyes lit up, you could see it on TV. He held him to what, 2 field goals through 3 quarters? Coby managed to adjust in the 4th quarter, which is great, but obviously Jimmy takes the game winning shot and nails it.
Last night I noticed that the Sixers, like the Heat and I think nearly everyone we've played lately, start to double the ballhandler (usually Coby but sometimes DeMar) about 30 feet out both in the clutch and at random intervals. I thought to myself that this must be in the scouting report, and I have no stats to back it up but it seems the Bulls usually hit the open man when the pressure comes. Then Coby turned it over trying to split the defenders, like MikeDC noted in the last post, and I realize maybe my memory isn't as good as I think it is (I'm also aware the goal isn't necessarily a turnover, but to eat up a possession and force a bad shot, so you sort of have to be looking for it).
It's something to keep an eye on, because elite-level defenses are doing it, both situationally and during called defenses when they're trying to pull the Bulls out of a scoring rhythm. And we saw it work pretty well there for them.
In regard to Vuc and touches/shots, I actually feel like his complaining (which unfortunately has devolved into pouting at times) stems from a desire to win, not simply to "get his" -- he feels the offense flows better with him than with the ball sticking with Zach as he messes around trying to go one-on-one every other possession.
I can't say he's totally wrong about that, especially from a Zach perspective. I know the feeling of playing with guys like Zach in pickup basketball games and it's totally emotionally deflating.
But Vuc isn't totally right either. Both he and DeMar are team-first players but tend to overinflate their conception of "the best thing for the team right now is for me to dominate the ball." So failings aren't about selfishness but really a lack of self-awareness and lack of trust in teammates. Prime MJ didn't always trust his teammates but had strong self-awareness of himself actually being the best scoring option in every pivotal situation.
But Zach has basically no self-awareness at all. Win or lose last night, at the end of tight games it continues to be refreshing to not have to watch Zach try long, contested 2's and dribble the ball off his knees trying to drive through traffic.
A small percentage accept doing the dirty work and don’t think they’re meant for more. I’d say about 90% of NBA players think that if the offense runs through them, the team will win more games. Some percentage of that 90% at least accept that there is someone “currently” better than them they should defer to.
Think of Andrew Wiggins, D’Angelo Russell, Karl-Anthony Towns, and even Zach LaVine. They all thought they were the best offensive players on their teams (only KAT was right, but he’s also not Jokic ). When Wiggins and Russell got on teams with all-time greats, they finally accepted taking a backseat. Zach and Vuc have never played with a players that demand that sort of respect, so they think they are the best option. (I’d say DeRozan is the closest to that, of course, but he’s also not a Hall of Famer, and while he’s the best on the team, he’s not multiple time champion, MVP, nor perennial All Star.)
When you read the constant references to “multiple-time All-Stars” and the unearned respect they get from local media, it’s not surprising.
This is way off topic, but anyone else seen a picture of Jimmy butler recently? He went full Emo lol
He just does it during media day, which then forces TV, websites, etc to use the same photos all year long. Last year he did it with huge Bob Marley-sized dreadlocks, this year he did an emo cut. He cuts it off the next day after the photographs are taken lol
I miss Jimmy. Hated that trade when they did it
Yeah, I would like to revisit both the Thibs firing and the Jimmy trade. In both cases, I had eventually come around to the idea that there was no path forward even though I loved both of them. But so much of that is narrative driven and I wonder if there was actually a way to keep them on the team. Obviously, history has vindicated Jimmy Butler as a team centerpiece. But the vibes were off after that awful three alphas season.
To be fair, Jimmy burned through a few teams before he found his place. This isn't meant to be a "no Bulls fault," but he's a lot. I was sort of sick of him by the end but now after enduring the Zach Show I miss him dearly.
He burned through a few stupid teams doing stupid things.
It's like blaming Lincoln for cycling through crappy Union generals until he got to Grant.
Sure. The point is, he's not the easiest personality and it was no longer working with the Bulls. I didn't think, at least. That's not blaming him, exactly, it's just a fact. There are a whole lot of players that would've existed more easily on any of those teams doing dumb stuff. Take Demar, for example.
The root cause of all of it seems to have been Gar Forman. If he hadn't been such a shit, Thibs doesn't get fired.
The Alphas were two years of Hoiberg and Forman flailing around later.
It is amazing now to note that in each decision Reinsdorf made the worst choice possible and came down on the side of replaceable cogs that he wound up firing pretty soon anyway.
Jimmy admitted that he compelled them to pick between him and Fred. It's mindboggling that you got a guy like this and picked Fred Fucking Hoiberg over him. That's insane. That's the karmic coin flipping back for Portland taking Sam Bowie over Jordan. Hopefully we've paid that debt and we're clean now because Fred over Jimmy is going to be laughed at when one of them is enshrined in the Hall of Fame and the other one buys a ticket. How many times do you pick a coach over a player and then just go ahead and fire that same coach like a year later?
Re: Thibs, it's just fascinating that Reinsdorf's priorities (which his manservants can even make sound noble) end up creating not a stable business but a system of backstabbing toadies. I can't believe I actually saw all these NBA teams handed over to quants and math geniuses while the most successful team of my youth resembled a made-for-TV miniseries on the Borgias.
Like with Jimmy, the toadies Reinsdorf picked here wound up lasting like another couple of years before he fired them for incompetence. Really not much data to pick from — there have been 3 GMs since I was born I guess — but it's probably not a coincidence that his management and coaches have all hated each other. That leads one to believe that Reinsdorf, like the great tyrants from history, intentionally stokes hostility among his minions. Or maybe it was a coincidence because it looks like the only coach Pax didn't try to undermine or bully (and sometimes physically attack) was Skiles, someone I think he was wisely afraid of picking a fight with. I would be.
In the Zach-less 9 games, Coby is 25 - 6 - 6 on great efficiency. That's All-Star level for sure... it'd be fun to try to get him into the All-Star game.
Thank goodness no one told Nurse about the legend of '21/'22 Furkan Korkmaz and his Bullfighting exploits.
This stuff from DeMar in Cowley's piece yesterday is pretty incredible:
> “I’ve played for Dwane Casey, he was coach of the year,” DeRozan said. “I played for Gregg Popovich, arguably one of the greatest coaches of all time, and playing for Billy, my personal opinion, he’s up there with those two guys just from the respect, the effort that you get from him. Even more so, he’s a guy you want to go out there and gain success, not just for yourself but for him, as well.
> “The love and respect that I have for Billy is right up there with what I had with the other two guys I mentioned. I’ve been lucky my entire career to have coaches like these guys. I tell a lot of the young players that you don’t really know what you have. To have such a great personable coach, hard-working coach in Billy, don’t ever take that for granted because it’s not always greener on the other side.”
Zach LaVine could not be reached for comment.
I won't bother to find it but Cowley did recently say the LaVine-Donovan rift was irreparable
he's usually dumbly exacerbating such things, so I won't assume it's actually that far along (though Zach's play is more important and he's checked out), it's just funny to see that in contrast to KC Johnson barging in like the Kool-Aid Man "ZACH IS ENGAGED AND PROFESSIONAL"
Torrey Craig is out 8 to 10 WEEKS.
that's no good
"We didn't feel it was necessary to make any further moves during the season. In season trades rarely improve teams and we feel that Torrey's return and the continued development of our young players will lift the Bulls in the second half of the season."
Or something.
Vuc is a big part of what is going right with this team now. It's still true that even if he played exactly like he has the last 9 games for the whole season, he's still probably a little overpaid. But they have restructured their offense around him, and most of the deep ways the team has changed map onto the ways in which he personally has been more productive over this stretch. The team is grabbing more offensive boards, turning it over less, and generating way more assists (like, they've gone from 30th in team assists/g with Zach to what would be 8th without him). So has Vuc personally, and it's happened precisely as the offense has become oriented around him as an initiator. Hard to think that's just a coincidence.
Thinking big picture, it is not possible to think about this team big picture. They have no coherent goals against which to judge them. But the young guys have looked much more comfortable since Vuc seemingly and maybe by default won the argument about how the team should play on offense. He's probably a $14M player making $20M. Is it worth it to overpay Vuc by 20-30M over three years if it means they also get better versions of their top 10 picks? Personally I think yes because the opportunity cost is not clear to me, even if I continue to marvel at just how obscene were the conditions of Vuc's initial arrival on the team.
I also think people are a little underrating how well they've played over this stretch. They've really played more like a 45-48 win team than a 41 win team. And while they are shooting the ball well, and that will come back to earth, they've also faced a pretty significant headwind. Alex has been their best player this year, and he actually hasn't played that well over this stretch. Given that it's actually a little remarkable how well they've defended lately.
Vuc's defense has been better this year than his previous Bulls years, especially this last stretch.
One thing I do wonder about that is how much his defensive performance is tied to having other big slow plodding guys. Obviously Embiid feasted on him, but Embiid feasts on everyone, and you are still better off having Vuc out there against Embiid/BroLo/Jokic type guys. That's probably his best use defensively, relatively speaking.
Where we had our two worst losses were where teams went small and quick (Denver when Jokic got ejected) and the Heat game, where they kept pulling Vuc out to the perimeter and killing us on the boards (think Granville pointed this out well). Also, having Dalen Terry guard him made Kevin Love look like he was 25 again.
All things considered, I'd rather have Isaiah Hartenstein
Totally nuts that we have like 1 power forward option off the bench (probably 0 now that Craig is out until February). The Lakers have Vanderbilt, Rui, Wood and Taurean Prince aside from Lebron and AD. If they're having Love pop off as the C in a small line-up against them and Jimmy hunting a flat-footed center in the PNR (which is not a problem they have with AD but let's pretend), the Lakers have like 5 options to pick from. And I want to emphasize that nearly all of those bench guys were available in the last 12 months for cheap aside from probably Vanderbilt (mainly because he was already on such a cheap contract). Probably anyone could have gone out and gotten one or two or all of them.
In this scenario (an incredibly common one, "going small" is not exactly a gimmick or innovation from the Grinnell college playbook) a bunch of our supposed bigs are pretty much useless. Sanogo looks like just an undersized C to me, I'm not seeing him sticking with Love or switching on to Jimmy. Terry Taylor is a fun little player but he's 6'5". For years the end of the bench has been a problem, the new regime didn't fix it and we're just carrying players that have no real shot at ever taking the court in a meaningful game.
Which brings us back to Craig. Caruso is probably going to miss a minimum of a 1/3rd of games, which means there is now a likely prospect of Julian Phillips being the first F off the bench in a number of games going forward (not that Caruso is a F but that's what's going to happen anyway). That's not good. A minimum salary player going down shouldn't lead to this kind of Plan B.
I like the tweet screenshots Matt. Are you using an outside website / app for that? The reason I ask is I have a chrome extension to do mine but the resolution is a lot worse than what it looks like you have.
Just the Windows screenshot tool, chrome browser