Serious question, how much better do we think Herro would be than Coby as a Zach replacement? I think Herro has proven to be a better scorer than Coby, obviously. I consider both to be decent playmakers though and after last season, I think Coby is the better defender.
Just wondering if Coby would be an even cheaper alternative. Although if we're being honest, having two shooters in Coby and Herro would be nice to have.
Yeah, I realized that as I was typing. I've just conditioned myself to focus on the cheapest possible option since that's the one the Bulls usually go for.
According to both ESPN's RPM and dunks and three's EPM, Herro is the superior player. RAPTOR says otherwise. CARMELO in the preseason said Herro, and he was better with a bigger role this past year. Herro's first four years are eerily similar to both LaVine and Beal. It doesn't mean he'll reach those heights, but I do think it means he's probably better at this point than just a young guy, and Beal and LaVine aren't quite as great as they're made out to be.
One trade that I don't think moves the needle much, but it is a change, and it does help the Bulls get younger. Lowry and Herro for LaVine and Lonzo. The Heat can take Lonzo's money and I suppose they wouldn't mind taking the chance on him recovering, even if it's a 5% chance. If he does, they have a very solid team for the next couple of years with Ball, LaVine, Butler, and Adebayo. If not, they can just stretch his contract. They'll probably actually use the space (either to get under whatever limit they're at, or because they're legitimately trying to win).
Bulls get a solid PG in Lowry. They could try to re-sign White and see if he and Herro can co-exist / both get better / one emerges and they can trade the other or something.
As long as they don't re-sign Vucevic (har har), they could choose to play out the season with DeRozan and compete at probably the same level they were at this year (or better, depending), or they could try to trade DeRozan for something and go forward with Herro and Williams. It's not exciting, but it's at least one player that is legitimately an NBA starter (even if at the bottom of the range).
Like I said, it doesn't do much for either team except get the Heat their "star" and a lottery ticket, and the Bulls get younger and rid of some salary after this next season (or whenever they buy out Lowry).
Herro is, IMO, one of the most overrated young player in the league.
First of all, his passing and ball handling are functionnal but nowhere good enough to be(come) a primary offensive engine and his most likely role will be as a volume scorer (similar to LaVine).
But unfortunately and unlike Zach, he has never truly been an efficient one yet (has a below average TS% every year of his career so far).
That's because a/ he seldom gets to the rim and B/ - related - he doesn't draw fouls at a high clip ; 2 of the 3 most important thing for a scorer.
That's not usually things that can improve (at least significantly) with age.
Combine that with a very heavy dose of Mid range J and you're left with a career .484 2pt Shooter (.497 this year). Not great.
Therefore in order to be more than what he is now (a 6man type/low end starter) and reach Zach/Beal's level, he basically has to become almost an all time great jump shooter either from the mid range or the 3pt line. He's a pretty good one already but that's an very, very high bar to clear.
Offensively IF things go right for him, development-wise, I think he's more likely to resemble McCollum(Portland era) than Zach.
Combine those concerns with the bigger problem, the fact that he is a very, very poor defender and it's why his advanced stats paint him as pretty meh ( BPM : 0.6 this year / -0.2 career ; WS/48 : .072 this year ; 0.66 career etc.)
and why the Miami Heat have always been better with him off the floor including this year where his injury probably helped the Heat make their deep run in the playoff (and that's despite on paper lacking self creators).
Lastly, Tyler Herro plays for one of if not the best Coach / Coaching staff and player developpment team in the entire league and therefore has been fully optimized.
Joining the Bulls ecosystem (who are terrible at developping and optimizing player(see Zach LaVine)); it's very likley and should be expected that his efficency would take a hit compared to his current stats.
Herro is not a bad prospect per say but he's not really a good one either for me and for him to be the primary asset in a LaVine trade, that would be a pretty bad move. And very Bulls-ian ... (BTW there are similarities between him and Vooch' when you think about it..).
Regardless of what the Bulls plan is -retool or rebuild- and whether zach is part of the deal or not, instead of looking at overrated prospect/player that are difficult to build around they should look at the opposite : under the radar young players who have yet to explode ; like Brunson last year... Incidentally, one of them happens to be on his current team. That would be Immanuel Quickley who to me, should be talked about in a similar fashion as guys like T.Maxey but somehow is not.
When we're talking about blowing "it" up, it's important to understand that the Bulls do not have an "it" to blow. I understand this is not a profound point. However, say what you want about Lonzo Ball's vital importance to the roster, but this team had LaVine, DeRozan and Vucevic largely available to them over the course of last season and ended up in the least enviable position in all of sports. Which is the first team on the outside looking in.
Therefore, I have a hard time taking Chicago's aversion to "rebuilding" seriously, seeing as they haven't built anything seriously in the first place. If LaVine is rumored to warrant a second or third pick in this draft, I'd do everything possible to make that premise work. And not just for this draft, but any draft. But I just don't understand what Portland or Charlotte would be doing, unloading such a high draft pick on someone like LaVine. Even in the likely scenario that Portland decides to make a good faith effort to build around Lillard. Building around him is something worth doing. Pairing him with LaVine is decidedly not.
If you're a bad team (and if you've gotten a top 3 pick you usually are), you're usually selling your fans on hope rather than actual product, so I don't know why they'd do that either. They say this is about Lillard but I really don't buy that, in effect they will have drafted and then extended and then traded CJ McCollum just to apparently try to acquire another CJ McCollum (Beal or LaVine) a few years later. Portland's "direction" is like they took a crazy old lady and blindfolded her and gave her a shotgun and spun her around really fast and had a bunch of stoners in the room giggling and making scary ghost noises.
It's easier to assume that they're even more directionless than we are, though I imagine it's for temporary reasons (Jody Allen can't sell the team yet due to Paul Allen being a paranoid freak and leaving financial bombs everywhere). For the Bulls confusion is a way of life. Jerry watches Robert Burke as General Mattis in "Generation Kill" and thinks, "What a fucking poseur, watch this" and rebuilds by trading a star on a cheap contract just to make a pick swap and sells off his 2nd rounder.
I don't understand giving up on talents like Lillard's. It's like the Bulls with Butler. The question of can Butler be someone you build around was always secondary to the better question: can Butler be someone you build around if you're an idiot. The Bulls answered the better question definitely. As Portland is too with their superstar.
And it all circles back to this question of why we do these mental exercises when the organization has neither the will nor the talent to build a winner.
We would be better off discussing other absurd hypotheticals like if we could field a team of players who's names all started with 'J' or were all exactly 6'7".
My favorite hypothetical is fielding a team full of the wrong brother. Like get LiAngelo Ball (I guess you could argue Lonzo is already the wrong Ball but does it count if we can't actually field him?), Thanasis Antetokounmpo, Justin Holiday, and Jerian Grant. Round out the starting 5 with Seth Curry?
It is so depressing that this started as a hypothetical and then it was like "no let's actually make a team from all the times we had the wrong brother."
"And it all circles back to this question of why we do these mental exercises when the organization has neither the will nor the talent to build a winner."
This is definitely how I'm starting to feel. But I love basketball. And this is one of the only places with bright Bulls fans. To have genuine conversation with about bettering the team.
We all know the Bulls are totally capable of making horrible trades on their own instincts, but in this case I sort of wonder if it isn't whatever agent is the BSD of the NBA right now holding brainstorming sessions with $7000 Miro digital whiteboards drawing arrows between different players and making conditional lists of potential superteam configurations. In which case the Bulls have leverage but in some ways are just along for the ride.
Houston appears to be at the center of all of these super-agent fantasies right now as MikeDC says below.
The big difference here is that Lillard will be 33 in a few weeks. Jimmy was going into his age 28 season when we traded him.
So the consistent comparison would be if the Bulls had never traded Butler, but then spent the next five seasons trying to build a winner with him and consistently failing and replacing the players around him with worse and worse guys. Which is, in fact, very believable.
Portland gave it the old college try and failed. The Bulls probably would have failed, but didn't actually try.
"They say this is about Lillard but I really don't buy that, in effect they will have drafted and then extended and then traded CJ McCollum just to apparently try to acquire another CJ McCollum (Beal or LaVine) a few years later."
Maybe they're banking on the "Zach's a local kid" factor?
Do Portlanders get annoyed when you group them with Seattle? I always assumed there must be some undertow of resentment, like when you confuse Norwegians with Swedes.
I think AK's reticence to be aggressive (which might just be ineptitude) has warped our thinking. Most teams in this league are in one of two places. They are shuffling around the deck chairs of a decent-to-good team trying to get better. Or they are rebuilding from scratch. The Bulls could go either route with their current roster in my opinion, and do it well. The Knicks don't have a 'star' but they are in the conversation to acquire every star with pieces no more or less appealing that what the Bulls can offer. AK needs to wheel and deal. It can't get any worse (and if it does, bottom out) but it CAN get better. You don't need the perfect (likely unrealistic) trade with move 1. You can sell high, win a trade, take advantage of a dumb or desperate GM, aggregate up, add pieces and then spin those off again for an upgrade, free up draft picks to make multi-unprotecteds+pick swaps trades, etc. etc.. All of that works and is standard operating procedure for most teams in the league--just look at the rumor mill (where we are 100% MIA). That WE all think more creatively and aggressively about building a team vs. how AK works is a BIG indictment. But let's not let him off the hook by implying he can't do ANYTHING. Do SOMETHING, man.
If I were running other teams, which ones would be interested in Zach and why? This isn't complicated, but it does require you to not look at things from the Bulls' perspective.
Charlotte. I wouldn't trade for Zach if I were them, but if they had orders from ownership to get better, I'd consider trading LaMelo + Rozier or Hayward for a guy like Zach to get a quality guy because they're not gonna use FA money anyway. But he wouldn't be my first or second or third choice I don't think, because I wouldn't see the point in adding him to a much younger team.
Same with Detroit, they're too far away. But I guess if they decide they're gonna be stupid, I'd take them up on it.
Dallas I think would pretty gladly offer #10 and whatever. Because I think they're pretty desperate. I actually really like Jaden Hardy, so if they offer #10 and one of the better potential guys is still there, I'd do it.
Lakers would surely offer #17 and like Bamba and Russell in S&T and/or Beasley.
Houston has like $70M in cap space and suppose to want to win immediately. Maybe they'd want to bring in Zach along with Harden and someone else. But there's so many moving parts there, I can't really speculate. Zach would have to be the third or fourth piece. They'd first need Harden, and second would need to be a big (Brook Lopez? Porzingis?) Then they'd have to offer up Kevin Porter JR + ? #4 pick? to bring in Zach? I think they're looking for this kind of quick turnaround, but it's just really hard to figure what it'll be. They'd have to figure out all the other stuff first, then Zach would be the scraps.
NY Knicks. They have no '23 picks and no lottery picks. The youngish guys they can offer are all due extensions (Quickley, Toppin, Grimes, Hartenstein) and while they're nice players, they aren't likely anything more than mid-level starters ever. Of course, I don't think Zach is a top 25 player, so maybe we shouldn't care too much.
I'd be mildly interested if I were Toronto but it'd be contingent on them bringing everyone else back. Which it looks almost certain that they're not. Since FVV is leaving, this is probably a non-starter.
I think the Heat would have interest if they don't get Lillard, but I can't imagine they give up their shot at him to get Zach. And what they can offer is Herro and the #17 pick? I dunno how I feel about that. I don't think they offer up much beyond that.
lord help me would I take Lakers trash? If Russell could be signed to a reasonable contract that's not too bad, I think he could improve with DeRozan, has he played with a steady veteran like that (only with LeBron/AD for half a season, and they're not as young player friendly as DeMar)
I suppose Reaves would be a more valuable S&T but he doesn't play point guard.
Russell / Caruso / DeRozan / Williams / Bamba, with shooters in Coby + Beasley off the bench
Let Vuc walk (or S&T to the Lakers but I don't think they could handle that incoming salary) Have your exceptions to fully use for another rotation player and future trade depth
maybe because they all turned out to be duds, but I suppose the league could be slow to learn
All that said I still think it's ridiculous to think #2 or #3 this year is available for LaVine. But he could get "3 first rounders" when they're all protected, and maybe a pick swap in there too, sure
Fewer bidders suggest it will calm down for at least a few years. There's a non-trivial number of teams that have literally zero tradable draft assets for the next few years other than conditional pick swaps.
The second reason is that the new CBA is pretty vicious toward adding a third max contract, which adds another degree of difficulty in pulling these all-in deals off. In case there was any doubt owners were S/M freaks trying to slap the handcuffs on themselves: going past the 2nd apron twice in four years automatically drops your draft pick to LAST, no matter where you actually finish. Very quietly the CBA is now going beyond a simple monetary fine (the luxury tax) to penalize teams with non-financial punishments in addition to even more draconian finances.
A few teams will still do it but it's gonna be harrowing — they're going to try to jump into the apron for a season and then jump out again. But it'll be a highwire situation because they probably won't be able to jump back out without some help from other teams. The Anti-Jerry owner is going to do all the "right" things and wind up with by definition the worst draft assets, no MLE and no ability to sign waived vets at the trade deadline — basically the 3 things a team in the tax can do to add useful bodies.
Just read Hollingers BORD$ C rankings, and he's speculating Bamba gets waived by the Lakers if he doesn't get used in a trade. Would love to have a 5 that can protect the rim and get up some 3s. Feels like Bamba is one of those guys that will figure out his role somewhere along the way.
I don't understand their valuation of Vucevic at this point, to-day. They obviously overpaid with two firsts, saying nothing of Wendell Carter Jr. But, at the time, I admired their hefty swing of the bat, citing a season of Vucevic's shooting numbers that proved to be more of a mirage than anything. It made some sense to me at the time, given the team they'd assembled.
At this point, though, why they would double down is beyond me. It almost feels like they consider themselves pot-committed on the basis of their previous evaluation, though the pot is lost. The hand is over. It's time for new hole cards.
Interesting thing was how Orlando used Vucevic. Even beyond statistical "usage%" which peaked in his two all-star seasons, he had his hands on the ball almost every single possession, often at the 3 point line and not necessarily just in pick-and-roll situations. It's hard to argue it had any effect whatsoever other than to push Vucevic into the all-star level statistical firmament. Orlando wasn't winning with him and also wasn't much worse even after they ripped this intensely high-usage player out of their line-up.
The Bulls' gamble then comes down to, "We'll make the 2 man game with Vucevic work better than it did in Orlando because Zach LaVine is better than Evan Fournier."
A demonstrable lesson. If D'Antoni was his coach I would have dismissed Vucevic's numbers as a result of pace or something. You don't often see a system built around a flawed, nearly one-dimensional big man anymore. He's a more expensive Christian Wood and I'd probably rather have the actual Christian Wood.
I think Caruso gets you more than LaVine in a trade, outside of money saved.
I am now fixated on just 'moving down' from LaVine's $40M, and getting assets, using free agency to get some tradeable depth, to where you then trade Caruso for even more assets and bundle it all up for a player better than LaVine. That part is trickier but as we know it's not like having LaVine is that great where you need to get these prime seasons from him
Who is the player better than Zach that is gettable? Ja or Zion? Barring injury, Zach will continue to improve and fits modern day NBA shot profile. DeRozan won’t resign so focus should be on getting something for him. S&T for VanVleet or John Collins are both step backs but better than him walking for jack squat. Memphis and Knicks need half court scorers. Even Celtics need a bucket getter when the 3pt chucking fails.
Yeah I think Sacramento didn't just release Holmes just because they didn't need the roster spot. I was wondering how he sunk down to like their 4th big and well he's got some other stuff going on:
Wouldn't be the first player to have a shitty playoffs. Kings will probably look big picture but in reality they probably would rather keep Monk too. Monk provides a lot of what Zach gives but he has proven he can do it in the playoffs....also cheaper/healthier as well
More I think of it do the Kings even want or need Zach anymore....i think they would go after Caruso as he fits what they need....they seem to have enough offense.
I'd take Hardy over Josh Green. That guy can play. He was like #2 in his high school class, but teams got spooked because he went to the G-League and didn't shoot well.
That seems to have been a mistake though, because he shot 40% on high volume in more than token minutes for the Mavs. And he's only 20.
If the Bulls are going to trade LaVine, we need exactly that kind of guy back.
I don't hate Green, but he's essentially a smaller version of Pat. He's not gonna be a guy who can carry a scoring load.
If the Bulls decide to roll it back with the Mid-3, I'd be stoked to add Brogdon into the mix (and cross my fingers he stays on the floor), but how does Ball help the C's cap situation? Ball and Brogdon are signed for the same amount of time on basically the same money.
I read about how successful the Bulls are as a franchise; profit margin, valuation, etc. But they are seriously underperforming, to my mind. There is so much more to be made there. I don't see why the ownership group would be happy with this state of affairs.
Ja has been suspended for 25 games for brandishing a firearm in a video.
Now let us imagine that Bradass had posted a video of himself in a duckblind. The ambient noise is deafening. The rhythmic grind of crickets swells as the arrhythmic croaks of frogs add a bass element to natures symphony. It goes on for a while. A full forty seconds. You lose patience. It is just reeds and insects and the occasional amphibian.
But then a distant fowl comes into view. It is the first of what is to come. Flying against the milky gray sky there are more. A pattern emerges. A wedge. A shape as old as time. It was here when Caesar marched on Rome and will be here when we are long dead.
The cacophony of natural sound is broken by the sound of a man standing, extending himself. He is a white man but he has dreadlocks. An enormous man. The point of his gun follows the course of the wedge. He follows, seems to pause, and then BANG!
The symphony is broken. The beasts hide themselves. Their self-preservation overwhelms their ambient noise-making. They have been subdued to human will, if only for a moment. The boldest return to their noise making but this is interrupted by the splashes of a large be-dredlocked human, splashing towards the bleeding corpse of a floating canard. It has died a stupid death, but that it's ears are dead to the Korn blasting in the F250 as it is shuttled to the taxidermist is a small mercy.
The crappy thing is if ak knew how the construct a team Zach could be a useful piece. Unless we’re getting Scoot and Sharpe then hold on to Zach get rid of Vuch and se what Demar can get you.
My goodness that Beal trade was unbelievably bad for the Wizards... Let's hope the NBA just takes that as an obvious tank move by the Wiz and it's not a market setter for scoring wings who don't do much else
Hot damn, the only benefit anyone gets from that trade is whoever signs Chris Paul on a cheap 1 year deal after the Wizards release him.
Editing because apparently this is not as likely as it would seem: Phoenix had to guarantee almost his entire $30 million to make the trade, so the Wizards can't buy him out at that original $15 million guarantee after the trade.
I have a theory that this is just because of the rapid evolution of the center position. Clint Capela was 28 last year and seems like he's going on 40. The old, at-the-rim big men seem prematurely ancient in comparison.
Bartelstein is praising the brilliant "cooperation" of the Wizards, which means he put a gun to their head and they signed on the dotted line.
Obviously not great optics to have your new guy start by getting strong-armed by a powerful agent. Leverage is a funny thing, there's no reason that either Morey or Ben Simmons' agent should have had any leverage at all in that situation. But one was willing to stage the first hold-out in decades (actually the second, some fringe PF held out when the Rockets refused to let him leave... again, Daryl Morey). The other was willing to waste an entire year to get the deal he wanted rather than the one he was forced to take. Maybe Ted Leonsis said to cut a deal. Probably would have rather had that done under an interim GM than to start my career with it though.
But maybe I'm just totally wrong and your bit about market setting is right, because if they re-sign Porzingas and Kuzma and keep Paul, the Wizards probably have their best season since they traded Westbrook. That team would be built better than the Chicago Bulls and I wouldn't be surprised if they were ahead of us in the standings next year. Like Vucevic in Orlando, despite high usage I really don't think ripping Beal out of the Wizards makes them any worse, and adding Paul as we've seen can make a team much better if he sticks and isn't completely falling apart. Drop in a bunch of shooters like Kispert, Gafford catching lobs and — am I wrong here? — you have a much better team than a headless zombie with Beal and the same cast.
For sure, in practice it is very uncertain whether Beal makes the Suns much better or whether losing him makes the Wizards any worse. However, this is still absurdly low value in return for a 3x All-Star wing scorer who commanded a max extension last year. He has always been one of the best comps to Zach's situation, and when you read the trade headline you think "Alright, let's see what Zach's trade value is set at this offseason!" And then the details are like two 2nd round picks, cap space, pick swaps which likely wont be of value, and a rotation player. I can hear AK now telling Bulls fans how the market just wasn't there for Zach, and I'd actually have to agree with him for a change if it was a Beal-ish return.
Washington fucked up by waiting too long, they should have traded him two years but instead they give him the supermax and idiotically include a no trade clause. why you would give any non top 5 player a NTC is mindblowing? they tanked his value by including that nonsense so ppl are shocked at the low return but the Bullets brought that shit on themselves
Just saw this... not a fan of this deal at all. Really not feeling the Vooch infatuation. To me he's a guy that gets stats because somebody has to. $20+M for three years... probably still a tradeable contract but really bad value.
Here's the thing, I'm not sure AKME are infatuated with Vooch. I think it's a pride thing. They have to pretend the Vooch trade wasn't actually terrible.
Vooch puts up good enough numbers that to the general observer, seeing him get a 3 year $65 million contract doesn't seem that bad.
I would imagine that's what AKME cares about more than anything. Who cares if the (very small) die hard fan base knows re-signing Vooch at that price is terrible when the other 95% of the fan base think it's totally fine.
I'm not sure what to think when it comes to 'optics', they don't seem to care about it and are openly antagonistic towards media relations
yet they will in their few public moments praise Vuc for double-doubles. Is it really 4-D chess to get KC Johnson to write about a $25M salary as a good deal? or instead they don't know how to evaluate performance and apply value to it
Regardless of what the real reason is, it's just sad that we're arguing about how bad our front office is. Like is Jerry intentionally hiring people for the job that he knows will be terrible?
that trade is a sunk cost. you fucked up...move on. doubling down is dumb but here we are. i don't care how many double doubles he gets....he is supremely unimpactful and has been so for his whole career.....smart GMs aren't fooled by counting stats as much anymore thankfully. he should be getting 3/45 max
To be honest, I feel liked we're boned and nothing is gonna happen.
But, I think Portland's #3 is probably the most interesting for us and somewhere near the realm of possibility.
Do we think there is anything we have they'd give up #3 for? Surely that pick isn't in any immediate 'keep Dame' plans for them. Would Lavine and [insert assets here] get us the pick? (whether Scoot Henderson\Brandon Miller etc are worth it, is a whole other question I guess)
Do they want any combo of Lavine + Caruso\PWill\Demar\Coby + futures? (Do we have a future?)
I'd imagine something involving Lavine and Caruso would be what Portland would want. They've said they want a star that's also a good defender. Not sure there are too many of those available (I honestly haven't checked so maybe there are). So what if they got their "star" in Lavine and then a defensive ace in AC?
I don't know what the return would look like. Maybe Portland would have to give up too much to make that happen.
let's go by the subjective (and a bit goofy when you look at, say Lauri) Rankings by TheRinger.
you're right when one first thinks LaVine isn't good enough for Portland to want...it's hard to find a better fitting player who may even plausibly be available.
Just looking at forwards, since they need size around Lillard not another McCollum or Simons
Maybe I just don't pay attention to Bridges enough. I've always liked him and thought of him as having serious two-way potential. I guess I just didn't realize he was already so good.
I don't know the draft well enough to say, but would the Raptors want #3 (assuming no Scoot tho) and send the Blazers Siakam AND Anunoby, bc I don't think Siakam is enough even though he's a good fit
Also they'd still have bird rights on Jerami Grant, and could sign him because you can never have too many forwards or S/T for a center (since you'd have to send Nurkic out for salary)
My idea from earlier was to figure out how to facilitate Paul George to Portland and net the #3 pick. Apparently, he and Dame are friends. I don't see any direct trades between the Bulls and Blazers that gets them frontcourt help.
Bridges is basically Jimmy when he was in Chicago, both as a player and as a contract. He makes half of what Zach does so you can still add another max if you have him + a max contract star, if you have the opportunity. He is also the missing link for every team in the league that has 2 stars already. And I think most people believe will go supernova as a #1 option this year.
The CBA has changed but the financial pressures are the same, and the fact that it will take a ransom of draft picks to get him will probably be another indicator of how badly the Bulls fucked up their future when they picked Fred over Butler.
There are a couple things I really don't get this offseason:
Is Charlotte just trolling the rest of the league, pretending that they're actually considering Brandon Miller instead of Scoot? Or are they actually that fucking stupid?
Does anyone at all believe that Portland should trade the #3 overall pick to get "help" for Dame? Just trade the guy. You're like a whole team away from being a contender.
I guess these two things could be related. If Charlotte really takes Miller #2, I'd suddenly be willing to trade anything to Portland, but still, if I were them, I'd just take Scoot and trade Dame. It's obviously run its course.
Here's the funny thing: Portland has made tons of transactions the last two years, but seems utterly paralyzed when it comes to doing anything with a degree of "risk" involved. Like I said above, trading #3 for a Zach-ian player would be just trading away one CJ McCollum and then trading away the best pick they've had since what, Greg Oden?! for another CJ McCollum. What was the point in trading away Hart for Thybulle the Good King of Cats and Cam Reddish like 3 months ago? Why did they trade away their 2025 pick for Jerami Grant 10 months ago? Why do you trade established players for chances at younger ones, and then acquire established players to replace them in the most expensive way possible? Portland is inscrutable.
Portland and the Bulls are basically two sides of the same coin. The Bulls won't take risks so they just don't do anything. The Blazers won't take risks, but are afraid to not do anything so they just keep making pointless trades that don't really help them in any meaningful way.
In theory I can understand a concept where they try to take a third path between tanking and contending, but the execution is really weird and I don't think they know when to quit or commit.
that's probably what they're thinking too. If Scoot is somehow there at #3, Portland will take him. Maybe it truly makes Dame do a trade request, and that has better 'optics' for them instead of trading him before he actually asks out
If they instead are #3 in a two-player tier, then they'll look to trade. They probably have a lot lined up just can't execute until they know what Charlotte will do. I think they'd look elsewhere than LaVine. Heck maybe they could get LaVine without the #3 pick (Simons, remove protections on pick they owe Bulls, other stuff?), and use the pick elsewhere.
Serious question, how much better do we think Herro would be than Coby as a Zach replacement? I think Herro has proven to be a better scorer than Coby, obviously. I consider both to be decent playmakers though and after last season, I think Coby is the better defender.
Just wondering if Coby would be an even cheaper alternative. Although if we're being honest, having two shooters in Coby and Herro would be nice to have.
yeah we shouldn't restrict ourselves on wanting multiple players who have offensive skill
Yeah, I realized that as I was typing. I've just conditioned myself to focus on the cheapest possible option since that's the one the Bulls usually go for.
According to both ESPN's RPM and dunks and three's EPM, Herro is the superior player. RAPTOR says otherwise. CARMELO in the preseason said Herro, and he was better with a bigger role this past year. Herro's first four years are eerily similar to both LaVine and Beal. It doesn't mean he'll reach those heights, but I do think it means he's probably better at this point than just a young guy, and Beal and LaVine aren't quite as great as they're made out to be.
One trade that I don't think moves the needle much, but it is a change, and it does help the Bulls get younger. Lowry and Herro for LaVine and Lonzo. The Heat can take Lonzo's money and I suppose they wouldn't mind taking the chance on him recovering, even if it's a 5% chance. If he does, they have a very solid team for the next couple of years with Ball, LaVine, Butler, and Adebayo. If not, they can just stretch his contract. They'll probably actually use the space (either to get under whatever limit they're at, or because they're legitimately trying to win).
Bulls get a solid PG in Lowry. They could try to re-sign White and see if he and Herro can co-exist / both get better / one emerges and they can trade the other or something.
As long as they don't re-sign Vucevic (har har), they could choose to play out the season with DeRozan and compete at probably the same level they were at this year (or better, depending), or they could try to trade DeRozan for something and go forward with Herro and Williams. It's not exciting, but it's at least one player that is legitimately an NBA starter (even if at the bottom of the range).
Like I said, it doesn't do much for either team except get the Heat their "star" and a lottery ticket, and the Bulls get younger and rid of some salary after this next season (or whenever they buy out Lowry).
Herro is, IMO, one of the most overrated young player in the league.
First of all, his passing and ball handling are functionnal but nowhere good enough to be(come) a primary offensive engine and his most likely role will be as a volume scorer (similar to LaVine).
But unfortunately and unlike Zach, he has never truly been an efficient one yet (has a below average TS% every year of his career so far).
That's because a/ he seldom gets to the rim and B/ - related - he doesn't draw fouls at a high clip ; 2 of the 3 most important thing for a scorer.
That's not usually things that can improve (at least significantly) with age.
Combine that with a very heavy dose of Mid range J and you're left with a career .484 2pt Shooter (.497 this year). Not great.
Therefore in order to be more than what he is now (a 6man type/low end starter) and reach Zach/Beal's level, he basically has to become almost an all time great jump shooter either from the mid range or the 3pt line. He's a pretty good one already but that's an very, very high bar to clear.
Offensively IF things go right for him, development-wise, I think he's more likely to resemble McCollum(Portland era) than Zach.
Combine those concerns with the bigger problem, the fact that he is a very, very poor defender and it's why his advanced stats paint him as pretty meh ( BPM : 0.6 this year / -0.2 career ; WS/48 : .072 this year ; 0.66 career etc.)
and why the Miami Heat have always been better with him off the floor including this year where his injury probably helped the Heat make their deep run in the playoff (and that's despite on paper lacking self creators).
Lastly, Tyler Herro plays for one of if not the best Coach / Coaching staff and player developpment team in the entire league and therefore has been fully optimized.
Joining the Bulls ecosystem (who are terrible at developping and optimizing player(see Zach LaVine)); it's very likley and should be expected that his efficency would take a hit compared to his current stats.
Herro is not a bad prospect per say but he's not really a good one either for me and for him to be the primary asset in a LaVine trade, that would be a pretty bad move. And very Bulls-ian ... (BTW there are similarities between him and Vooch' when you think about it..).
Regardless of what the Bulls plan is -retool or rebuild- and whether zach is part of the deal or not, instead of looking at overrated prospect/player that are difficult to build around they should look at the opposite : under the radar young players who have yet to explode ; like Brunson last year... Incidentally, one of them happens to be on his current team. That would be Immanuel Quickley who to me, should be talked about in a similar fashion as guys like T.Maxey but somehow is not.
Thanks for posting this. Great insights on Herro.
Good post and agree that Quickley and Toppin would be good gets in a Zach trade.
I could go for Quickley/Toppin/1 FRP...or just Quickley and 2 FRPs
When we're talking about blowing "it" up, it's important to understand that the Bulls do not have an "it" to blow. I understand this is not a profound point. However, say what you want about Lonzo Ball's vital importance to the roster, but this team had LaVine, DeRozan and Vucevic largely available to them over the course of last season and ended up in the least enviable position in all of sports. Which is the first team on the outside looking in.
Therefore, I have a hard time taking Chicago's aversion to "rebuilding" seriously, seeing as they haven't built anything seriously in the first place. If LaVine is rumored to warrant a second or third pick in this draft, I'd do everything possible to make that premise work. And not just for this draft, but any draft. But I just don't understand what Portland or Charlotte would be doing, unloading such a high draft pick on someone like LaVine. Even in the likely scenario that Portland decides to make a good faith effort to build around Lillard. Building around him is something worth doing. Pairing him with LaVine is decidedly not.
If you're a bad team (and if you've gotten a top 3 pick you usually are), you're usually selling your fans on hope rather than actual product, so I don't know why they'd do that either. They say this is about Lillard but I really don't buy that, in effect they will have drafted and then extended and then traded CJ McCollum just to apparently try to acquire another CJ McCollum (Beal or LaVine) a few years later. Portland's "direction" is like they took a crazy old lady and blindfolded her and gave her a shotgun and spun her around really fast and had a bunch of stoners in the room giggling and making scary ghost noises.
It's easier to assume that they're even more directionless than we are, though I imagine it's for temporary reasons (Jody Allen can't sell the team yet due to Paul Allen being a paranoid freak and leaving financial bombs everywhere). For the Bulls confusion is a way of life. Jerry watches Robert Burke as General Mattis in "Generation Kill" and thinks, "What a fucking poseur, watch this" and rebuilds by trading a star on a cheap contract just to make a pick swap and sells off his 2nd rounder.
I don't understand giving up on talents like Lillard's. It's like the Bulls with Butler. The question of can Butler be someone you build around was always secondary to the better question: can Butler be someone you build around if you're an idiot. The Bulls answered the better question definitely. As Portland is too with their superstar.
And it all circles back to this question of why we do these mental exercises when the organization has neither the will nor the talent to build a winner.
We would be better off discussing other absurd hypotheticals like if we could field a team of players who's names all started with 'J' or were all exactly 6'7".
The answer to *that* question is because I hate my job. To wit:
All J team:
PG: Johnson, Kevin
SG: Jordon, Micheal
SF: James, LeBron
PF: Jamison, Antawn
C: Jokic, Nikola
Does Dr. J count???
My favorite hypothetical is fielding a team full of the wrong brother. Like get LiAngelo Ball (I guess you could argue Lonzo is already the wrong Ball but does it count if we can't actually field him?), Thanasis Antetokounmpo, Justin Holiday, and Jerian Grant. Round out the starting 5 with Seth Curry?
Genius! Bring back RoLo.
It is so depressing that this started as a hypothetical and then it was like "no let's actually make a team from all the times we had the wrong brother."
Marquis Teague needs to be on that team
The Flying Jillini
"And it all circles back to this question of why we do these mental exercises when the organization has neither the will nor the talent to build a winner."
This is definitely how I'm starting to feel. But I love basketball. And this is one of the only places with bright Bulls fans. To have genuine conversation with about bettering the team.
We all know the Bulls are totally capable of making horrible trades on their own instincts, but in this case I sort of wonder if it isn't whatever agent is the BSD of the NBA right now holding brainstorming sessions with $7000 Miro digital whiteboards drawing arrows between different players and making conditional lists of potential superteam configurations. In which case the Bulls have leverage but in some ways are just along for the ride.
Houston appears to be at the center of all of these super-agent fantasies right now as MikeDC says below.
The big difference here is that Lillard will be 33 in a few weeks. Jimmy was going into his age 28 season when we traded him.
So the consistent comparison would be if the Bulls had never traded Butler, but then spent the next five seasons trying to build a winner with him and consistently failing and replacing the players around him with worse and worse guys. Which is, in fact, very believable.
Portland gave it the old college try and failed. The Bulls probably would have failed, but didn't actually try.
I read this last line and burst out laughing and I still am
"They say this is about Lillard but I really don't buy that, in effect they will have drafted and then extended and then traded CJ McCollum just to apparently try to acquire another CJ McCollum (Beal or LaVine) a few years later."
Maybe they're banking on the "Zach's a local kid" factor?
Do Portlanders get annoyed when you group them with Seattle? I always assumed there must be some undertow of resentment, like when you confuse Norwegians with Swedes.
I think AK's reticence to be aggressive (which might just be ineptitude) has warped our thinking. Most teams in this league are in one of two places. They are shuffling around the deck chairs of a decent-to-good team trying to get better. Or they are rebuilding from scratch. The Bulls could go either route with their current roster in my opinion, and do it well. The Knicks don't have a 'star' but they are in the conversation to acquire every star with pieces no more or less appealing that what the Bulls can offer. AK needs to wheel and deal. It can't get any worse (and if it does, bottom out) but it CAN get better. You don't need the perfect (likely unrealistic) trade with move 1. You can sell high, win a trade, take advantage of a dumb or desperate GM, aggregate up, add pieces and then spin those off again for an upgrade, free up draft picks to make multi-unprotecteds+pick swaps trades, etc. etc.. All of that works and is standard operating procedure for most teams in the league--just look at the rumor mill (where we are 100% MIA). That WE all think more creatively and aggressively about building a team vs. how AK works is a BIG indictment. But let's not let him off the hook by implying he can't do ANYTHING. Do SOMETHING, man.
thought the extension was dumb, about November the rumors he was unhappy were dumb or whenever that happened.. Trade him build around Dero..
If I were running other teams, which ones would be interested in Zach and why? This isn't complicated, but it does require you to not look at things from the Bulls' perspective.
Charlotte. I wouldn't trade for Zach if I were them, but if they had orders from ownership to get better, I'd consider trading LaMelo + Rozier or Hayward for a guy like Zach to get a quality guy because they're not gonna use FA money anyway. But he wouldn't be my first or second or third choice I don't think, because I wouldn't see the point in adding him to a much younger team.
Same with Detroit, they're too far away. But I guess if they decide they're gonna be stupid, I'd take them up on it.
Dallas I think would pretty gladly offer #10 and whatever. Because I think they're pretty desperate. I actually really like Jaden Hardy, so if they offer #10 and one of the better potential guys is still there, I'd do it.
Lakers would surely offer #17 and like Bamba and Russell in S&T and/or Beasley.
Houston has like $70M in cap space and suppose to want to win immediately. Maybe they'd want to bring in Zach along with Harden and someone else. But there's so many moving parts there, I can't really speculate. Zach would have to be the third or fourth piece. They'd first need Harden, and second would need to be a big (Brook Lopez? Porzingis?) Then they'd have to offer up Kevin Porter JR + ? #4 pick? to bring in Zach? I think they're looking for this kind of quick turnaround, but it's just really hard to figure what it'll be. They'd have to figure out all the other stuff first, then Zach would be the scraps.
NY Knicks. They have no '23 picks and no lottery picks. The youngish guys they can offer are all due extensions (Quickley, Toppin, Grimes, Hartenstein) and while they're nice players, they aren't likely anything more than mid-level starters ever. Of course, I don't think Zach is a top 25 player, so maybe we shouldn't care too much.
I'd be mildly interested if I were Toronto but it'd be contingent on them bringing everyone else back. Which it looks almost certain that they're not. Since FVV is leaving, this is probably a non-starter.
I think the Heat would have interest if they don't get Lillard, but I can't imagine they give up their shot at him to get Zach. And what they can offer is Herro and the #17 pick? I dunno how I feel about that. I don't think they offer up much beyond that.
Isn't it most likely NY? That's what was rumored.. no idea how though
lord help me would I take Lakers trash? If Russell could be signed to a reasonable contract that's not too bad, I think he could improve with DeRozan, has he played with a steady veteran like that (only with LeBron/AD for half a season, and they're not as young player friendly as DeMar)
I suppose Reaves would be a more valuable S&T but he doesn't play point guard.
Russell / Caruso / DeRozan / Williams / Bamba, with shooters in Coby + Beasley off the bench
Let Vuc walk (or S&T to the Lakers but I don't think they could handle that incoming salary) Have your exceptions to fully use for another rotation player and future trade depth
Maybe if Lakers included 2029 (or 2030) FRP too.
Vuc and Davis lol...LAL aint doing that. seems like a good time for aint.
Russell, bamba, Beasley and a far out first for Zach? Not nearly enough.
And the first this draft
I think AKME is fishing for a Mitchell/Gobert insanity trade. Otherwise, they won’t do it.
I hate to say this, but I can't really blame them if they were. There were multiple trades like that last year. Who's to say there won't be this year?
maybe because they all turned out to be duds, but I suppose the league could be slow to learn
All that said I still think it's ridiculous to think #2 or #3 this year is available for LaVine. But he could get "3 first rounders" when they're all protected, and maybe a pick swap in there too, sure
Fewer bidders suggest it will calm down for at least a few years. There's a non-trivial number of teams that have literally zero tradable draft assets for the next few years other than conditional pick swaps.
The second reason is that the new CBA is pretty vicious toward adding a third max contract, which adds another degree of difficulty in pulling these all-in deals off. In case there was any doubt owners were S/M freaks trying to slap the handcuffs on themselves: going past the 2nd apron twice in four years automatically drops your draft pick to LAST, no matter where you actually finish. Very quietly the CBA is now going beyond a simple monetary fine (the luxury tax) to penalize teams with non-financial punishments in addition to even more draconian finances.
A few teams will still do it but it's gonna be harrowing — they're going to try to jump into the apron for a season and then jump out again. But it'll be a highwire situation because they probably won't be able to jump back out without some help from other teams. The Anti-Jerry owner is going to do all the "right" things and wind up with by definition the worst draft assets, no MLE and no ability to sign waived vets at the trade deadline — basically the 3 things a team in the tax can do to add useful bodies.
Man, I want to move in the direction of having everyone be able to shoot.
I think Caruso would get you the Lakers pick this year and Bamba.
I'm not the hugest Zach fan, but I think we don't absolutely have to trade him now anyway, so I'm not gonna do it for something we can get another way
Just read Hollingers BORD$ C rankings, and he's speculating Bamba gets waived by the Lakers if he doesn't get used in a trade. Would love to have a 5 that can protect the rim and get up some 3s. Feels like Bamba is one of those guys that will figure out his role somewhere along the way.
thank you for alerting me to this
Vuc at $8.5M! Stacey King crushed
But I thought it was a simple game??
I don't understand their valuation of Vucevic at this point, to-day. They obviously overpaid with two firsts, saying nothing of Wendell Carter Jr. But, at the time, I admired their hefty swing of the bat, citing a season of Vucevic's shooting numbers that proved to be more of a mirage than anything. It made some sense to me at the time, given the team they'd assembled.
At this point, though, why they would double down is beyond me. It almost feels like they consider themselves pot-committed on the basis of their previous evaluation, though the pot is lost. The hand is over. It's time for new hole cards.
Interesting thing was how Orlando used Vucevic. Even beyond statistical "usage%" which peaked in his two all-star seasons, he had his hands on the ball almost every single possession, often at the 3 point line and not necessarily just in pick-and-roll situations. It's hard to argue it had any effect whatsoever other than to push Vucevic into the all-star level statistical firmament. Orlando wasn't winning with him and also wasn't much worse even after they ripped this intensely high-usage player out of their line-up.
The Bulls' gamble then comes down to, "We'll make the 2 man game with Vucevic work better than it did in Orlando because Zach LaVine is better than Evan Fournier."
A demonstrable lesson. If D'Antoni was his coach I would have dismissed Vucevic's numbers as a result of pace or something. You don't often see a system built around a flawed, nearly one-dimensional big man anymore. He's a more expensive Christian Wood and I'd probably rather have the actual Christian Wood.
I think Caruso gets you more than LaVine in a trade, outside of money saved.
I am now fixated on just 'moving down' from LaVine's $40M, and getting assets, using free agency to get some tradeable depth, to where you then trade Caruso for even more assets and bundle it all up for a player better than LaVine. That part is trickier but as we know it's not like having LaVine is that great where you need to get these prime seasons from him
Who is the player better than Zach that is gettable? Ja or Zion? Barring injury, Zach will continue to improve and fits modern day NBA shot profile. DeRozan won’t resign so focus should be on getting something for him. S&T for VanVleet or John Collins are both step backs but better than him walking for jack squat. Memphis and Knicks need half court scorers. Even Celtics need a bucket getter when the 3pt chucking fails.
brought up to me on Twitter: The Kings?
they're rumored to be interested in Beal. And they did give Zach that offer sheet five years ago.
unclear why they'd want another non-defense player, but like I said they're in on Beal
Huerter + Mitchell + Holmes (#HouseInTheArea) and 2 first round picks?
didn't know Holmes is actually signed for 2 more years (player option in 24-25)
so might have to be more. Malik Monk? a pick swap?
Yeah I think Sacramento didn't just release Holmes just because they didn't need the roster spot. I was wondering how he sunk down to like their 4th big and well he's got some other stuff going on:
https://www.kcra.com/article/sacramento-bee-allexis-sued-by-richaun-holmes/43186745
Probably they release him this year or whoever acquires him in whatever garbage-for-garbage trade does so.
I think Huerter+Holmes+Murray + this year's first gets it done.
i don't think they give up Huerter....he is a pretty big part of a lot of their offensive actions. Monk seems more likely
Monk was very good in the playoffs whereas Huerter stunk (won't have that problem here!)
Wouldn't be the first player to have a shitty playoffs. Kings will probably look big picture but in reality they probably would rather keep Monk too. Monk provides a lot of what Zach gives but he has proven he can do it in the playoffs....also cheaper/healthier as well
More I think of it do the Kings even want or need Zach anymore....i think they would go after Caruso as he fits what they need....they seem to have enough offense.
Will Gottlieb had a Dallas trade idea I was intrigued by
LaVine for
#10 this year, another protected first in 2027 or 2028
Jalen Hardy
then Hardaway+Bertans for matching salary
I'd think Bulls could get Josh Green over Hardy, especially because both those salaries coming in are 2-year deals
though I'm then not quite sure Dallas wants LaVine, as then their big 3 would be him with Kyrie and Luka, and all three suck defensively
I'd take Hardy over Josh Green. That guy can play. He was like #2 in his high school class, but teams got spooked because he went to the G-League and didn't shoot well.
That seems to have been a mistake though, because he shot 40% on high volume in more than token minutes for the Mavs. And he's only 20.
If the Bulls are going to trade LaVine, we need exactly that kind of guy back.
I don't hate Green, but he's essentially a smaller version of Pat. He's not gonna be a guy who can carry a scoring load.
I would do #10/Hardy and a later FRP
Would be funny if the Bulls get the #10 pick after beating Dallas' scrubs so they could preserve it.
(Adam Silver reported this comment.)
it's a joke that AK cites the '14-9 record' without any context of those last two games
Not in a deal for Lavine, but the Celtics are likely to want to trade Brogdon, possibly for cap space down the track.
Could the Bulls offer a Brogdon for Lonzo Ball trade, possibly you could also include Alex going to Boston and Pritchard to Bulls?
Bulls add playmaking with defense (Brogdon) and shooting off the bench (Pritchard).
If the Bulls decide to roll it back with the Mid-3, I'd be stoked to add Brogdon into the mix (and cross my fingers he stays on the floor), but how does Ball help the C's cap situation? Ball and Brogdon are signed for the same amount of time on basically the same money.
Reinsdork will never trade Ball if insurance is paying his salary. Remember, he does not care about winning, only cares about cash coming in.
Thinking like the cheep-o Bulls, how about Lonzo/Zach for Lowry/Herro and the 18th pick? Bulls save $100M.
I read about how successful the Bulls are as a franchise; profit margin, valuation, etc. But they are seriously underperforming, to my mind. There is so much more to be made there. I don't see why the ownership group would be happy with this state of affairs.
What's not to like? The team is profitable and gets payments from the tax paying teams.
They're happy because it doesn't take that much effort and attention; attention that they'd rather put toward the White Sox.
Ja has been suspended for 25 games for brandishing a firearm in a video.
Now let us imagine that Bradass had posted a video of himself in a duckblind. The ambient noise is deafening. The rhythmic grind of crickets swells as the arrhythmic croaks of frogs add a bass element to natures symphony. It goes on for a while. A full forty seconds. You lose patience. It is just reeds and insects and the occasional amphibian.
But then a distant fowl comes into view. It is the first of what is to come. Flying against the milky gray sky there are more. A pattern emerges. A wedge. A shape as old as time. It was here when Caesar marched on Rome and will be here when we are long dead.
The cacophony of natural sound is broken by the sound of a man standing, extending himself. He is a white man but he has dreadlocks. An enormous man. The point of his gun follows the course of the wedge. He follows, seems to pause, and then BANG!
The symphony is broken. The beasts hide themselves. Their self-preservation overwhelms their ambient noise-making. They have been subdued to human will, if only for a moment. The boldest return to their noise making but this is interrupted by the splashes of a large be-dredlocked human, splashing towards the bleeding corpse of a floating canard. It has died a stupid death, but that it's ears are dead to the Korn blasting in the F250 as it is shuttled to the taxidermist is a small mercy.
So would Ja have been suspended 25 games for posting a hunting video where he kills a duck?
Well, the joke was that this would be the obvious conclusion to the post, but instead I just wrote a deeply moving poem about Bradass.
I tied a few on and then wrote that Brad Miller prose poem. Sorry gang, I do that once a year. And I mixed up cornrows with dredlocks. Will do better.
Post of the Year candidate. Please print to file.
I like this baroque evolution of THEKILLERWHALE. Put a flute and bongo player behind you and let it riff.
Would 76ers trade Harris/Maxey for Zach? Or Harris/Maxey/Melton for Zach/Caruso? We need a PG and a 3&D PF and this gets us both.
I don't think they'd include Maxey
The crappy thing is if ak knew how the construct a team Zach could be a useful piece. Unless we’re getting Scoot and Sharpe then hold on to Zach get rid of Vuch and se what Demar can get you.
My goodness that Beal trade was unbelievably bad for the Wizards... Let's hope the NBA just takes that as an obvious tank move by the Wiz and it's not a market setter for scoring wings who don't do much else
Hot damn, the only benefit anyone gets from that trade is whoever signs Chris Paul on a cheap 1 year deal after the Wizards release him.
Editing because apparently this is not as likely as it would seem: Phoenix had to guarantee almost his entire $30 million to make the trade, so the Wizards can't buy him out at that original $15 million guarantee after the trade.
I have to imagine Washington is just going full tank, but yeah this isn't a good sneek peak at this year's off-season.
I think it was the no trade clause more than his value? NBA really needs non-guaranteed contracts like the NFL.
That's definitely what I'd say if I was the Wizards GM to save face!
yeah I mean that was going to have a huge effect on the trades they could make.
boy i can't believe he's not even 30. kinda like drummond - the dude's been around forever and seems way older at this point lol.
I have a theory that this is just because of the rapid evolution of the center position. Clint Capela was 28 last year and seems like he's going on 40. The old, at-the-rim big men seem prematurely ancient in comparison.
Bartelstein is praising the brilliant "cooperation" of the Wizards, which means he put a gun to their head and they signed on the dotted line.
Obviously not great optics to have your new guy start by getting strong-armed by a powerful agent. Leverage is a funny thing, there's no reason that either Morey or Ben Simmons' agent should have had any leverage at all in that situation. But one was willing to stage the first hold-out in decades (actually the second, some fringe PF held out when the Rockets refused to let him leave... again, Daryl Morey). The other was willing to waste an entire year to get the deal he wanted rather than the one he was forced to take. Maybe Ted Leonsis said to cut a deal. Probably would have rather had that done under an interim GM than to start my career with it though.
But maybe I'm just totally wrong and your bit about market setting is right, because if they re-sign Porzingas and Kuzma and keep Paul, the Wizards probably have their best season since they traded Westbrook. That team would be built better than the Chicago Bulls and I wouldn't be surprised if they were ahead of us in the standings next year. Like Vucevic in Orlando, despite high usage I really don't think ripping Beal out of the Wizards makes them any worse, and adding Paul as we've seen can make a team much better if he sticks and isn't completely falling apart. Drop in a bunch of shooters like Kispert, Gafford catching lobs and — am I wrong here? — you have a much better team than a headless zombie with Beal and the same cast.
Also wild that Bartelstein's son works for the Suns
And here I thought he was GarPax's daddy already folks
For sure, in practice it is very uncertain whether Beal makes the Suns much better or whether losing him makes the Wizards any worse. However, this is still absurdly low value in return for a 3x All-Star wing scorer who commanded a max extension last year. He has always been one of the best comps to Zach's situation, and when you read the trade headline you think "Alright, let's see what Zach's trade value is set at this offseason!" And then the details are like two 2nd round picks, cap space, pick swaps which likely wont be of value, and a rotation player. I can hear AK now telling Bulls fans how the market just wasn't there for Zach, and I'd actually have to agree with him for a change if it was a Beal-ish return.
Washington fucked up by waiting too long, they should have traded him two years but instead they give him the supermax and idiotically include a no trade clause. why you would give any non top 5 player a NTC is mindblowing? they tanked his value by including that nonsense so ppl are shocked at the low return but the Bullets brought that shit on themselves
Welp, 3 yrs $65m for Vuc is floating around, so AKME is alive and doing something! Woof
They were talking on the Nate Duncan podcast like this is a done deal.
ugh so depressing... sigh.
I really hope any talk of 'bad optics' from the original Vuc trade is concern trolling by other sources
One of the benefits of our lame FO and ownership is they clearly don't care about optics! There's bad optics in an untradeable 33 year old Vuc too
Just saw this... not a fan of this deal at all. Really not feeling the Vooch infatuation. To me he's a guy that gets stats because somebody has to. $20+M for three years... probably still a tradeable contract but really bad value.
Here's the thing, I'm not sure AKME are infatuated with Vooch. I think it's a pride thing. They have to pretend the Vooch trade wasn't actually terrible.
Vooch puts up good enough numbers that to the general observer, seeing him get a 3 year $65 million contract doesn't seem that bad.
I would imagine that's what AKME cares about more than anything. Who cares if the (very small) die hard fan base knows re-signing Vooch at that price is terrible when the other 95% of the fan base think it's totally fine.
It's making me question my ability to evaluate players. Am I really so out of touch? Or is it the children who are wrong?
I mean, you and I aren't getting paid millions of dollars to sign players to multi-million dollar contracts, so clearly we are the dumb ones, right?!
I say, fuck the children.
I'm not sure what to think when it comes to 'optics', they don't seem to care about it and are openly antagonistic towards media relations
yet they will in their few public moments praise Vuc for double-doubles. Is it really 4-D chess to get KC Johnson to write about a $25M salary as a good deal? or instead they don't know how to evaluate performance and apply value to it
Regardless of what the real reason is, it's just sad that we're arguing about how bad our front office is. Like is Jerry intentionally hiring people for the job that he knows will be terrible?
that trade is a sunk cost. you fucked up...move on. doubling down is dumb but here we are. i don't care how many double doubles he gets....he is supremely unimpactful and has been so for his whole career.....smart GMs aren't fooled by counting stats as much anymore thankfully. he should be getting 3/45 max
To be honest, I feel liked we're boned and nothing is gonna happen.
But, I think Portland's #3 is probably the most interesting for us and somewhere near the realm of possibility.
Do we think there is anything we have they'd give up #3 for? Surely that pick isn't in any immediate 'keep Dame' plans for them. Would Lavine and [insert assets here] get us the pick? (whether Scoot Henderson\Brandon Miller etc are worth it, is a whole other question I guess)
Do they want any combo of Lavine + Caruso\PWill\Demar\Coby + futures? (Do we have a future?)
I'd imagine something involving Lavine and Caruso would be what Portland would want. They've said they want a star that's also a good defender. Not sure there are too many of those available (I honestly haven't checked so maybe there are). So what if they got their "star" in Lavine and then a defensive ace in AC?
I don't know what the return would look like. Maybe Portland would have to give up too much to make that happen.
(They want Mikal Bridges.)
Don't get me wrong, I think Mikal Bridges is a great player. Is he a star though?
let's go by the subjective (and a bit goofy when you look at, say Lauri) Rankings by TheRinger.
you're right when one first thinks LaVine isn't good enough for Portland to want...it's hard to find a better fitting player who may even plausibly be available.
Just looking at forwards, since they need size around Lillard not another McCollum or Simons
#22 Jaylen Brown
#27 Siakam
#29 Ingram
#37 Bridges
#41 DeRozan
#47 LaVine
Maybe I just don't pay attention to Bridges enough. I've always liked him and thought of him as having serious two-way potential. I guess I just didn't realize he was already so good.
I don't know the draft well enough to say, but would the Raptors want #3 (assuming no Scoot tho) and send the Blazers Siakam AND Anunoby, bc I don't think Siakam is enough even though he's a good fit
Also they'd still have bird rights on Jerami Grant, and could sign him because you can never have too many forwards or S/T for a center (since you'd have to send Nurkic out for salary)
My idea from earlier was to figure out how to facilitate Paul George to Portland and net the #3 pick. Apparently, he and Dame are friends. I don't see any direct trades between the Bulls and Blazers that gets them frontcourt help.
Bridges is basically Jimmy when he was in Chicago, both as a player and as a contract. He makes half of what Zach does so you can still add another max if you have him + a max contract star, if you have the opportunity. He is also the missing link for every team in the league that has 2 stars already. And I think most people believe will go supernova as a #1 option this year.
The CBA has changed but the financial pressures are the same, and the fact that it will take a ransom of draft picks to get him will probably be another indicator of how badly the Bulls fucked up their future when they picked Fred over Butler.
latest Blazers INTEL (https://sports.yahoo.com/portland-is-determined-to-improve-around-damian-lillard-and-holds-interest-in-bam-adebayo-145358329.html)
- targeting forwards with size at the top echelon of the league’s player hierarchy — someone like Bam Adebayo or Paul George.
- Portland doesn’t truly covet either Toronto player (Siakam, Anunoby) for the No. 3 selection
- LaVine "does not appear to be a legitimate target"
- no interest from either side in KAT
- all indications are that the Pelicans would require more than the third selection to part with either of Zion or Ingram
There are a couple things I really don't get this offseason:
Is Charlotte just trolling the rest of the league, pretending that they're actually considering Brandon Miller instead of Scoot? Or are they actually that fucking stupid?
Does anyone at all believe that Portland should trade the #3 overall pick to get "help" for Dame? Just trade the guy. You're like a whole team away from being a contender.
I guess these two things could be related. If Charlotte really takes Miller #2, I'd suddenly be willing to trade anything to Portland, but still, if I were them, I'd just take Scoot and trade Dame. It's obviously run its course.
Here's the funny thing: Portland has made tons of transactions the last two years, but seems utterly paralyzed when it comes to doing anything with a degree of "risk" involved. Like I said above, trading #3 for a Zach-ian player would be just trading away one CJ McCollum and then trading away the best pick they've had since what, Greg Oden?! for another CJ McCollum. What was the point in trading away Hart for Thybulle the Good King of Cats and Cam Reddish like 3 months ago? Why did they trade away their 2025 pick for Jerami Grant 10 months ago? Why do you trade established players for chances at younger ones, and then acquire established players to replace them in the most expensive way possible? Portland is inscrutable.
Portland and the Bulls are basically two sides of the same coin. The Bulls won't take risks so they just don't do anything. The Blazers won't take risks, but are afraid to not do anything so they just keep making pointless trades that don't really help them in any meaningful way.
In theory I can understand a concept where they try to take a third path between tanking and contending, but the execution is really weird and I don't think they know when to quit or commit.
that's probably what they're thinking too. If Scoot is somehow there at #3, Portland will take him. Maybe it truly makes Dame do a trade request, and that has better 'optics' for them instead of trading him before he actually asks out
If they instead are #3 in a two-player tier, then they'll look to trade. They probably have a lot lined up just can't execute until they know what Charlotte will do. I think they'd look elsewhere than LaVine. Heck maybe they could get LaVine without the #3 pick (Simons, remove protections on pick they owe Bulls, other stuff?), and use the pick elsewhere.