They can and should trade their vets and tank now. They should have started sooner, but now is the next best time. 7th is better than 10th. 6th is better still. They should avoid the play-in at all costs and get as low as they can. I don't see what's hard to understand about this.
I think what yfBB is getting at is what "at all costs" means. It is arguable right now that parting with Zach LaVine might require draft compensation being *sent out*. Virtually every day there's another article quoting some coward GM who says that in 2017, Zach would have been traded by now but the Bulls might not get a single offer this year. Not an offer worth considering, but any offer at all.
Vuc doesn't seem to be as dire but I do believe the recent claim by one of the ESPN drones that there are a lot of centers on the market and the extra year + his deficiencies make Vuc one of the less desirable ones. Atlanta has been trying to trade Capela, who does not have those deficiencies and is an expiring that makes the same as Vuc but for one year less, and hasn't yet been able to. Valenciunas is also in that bucket. Robert Williams III if he gets healthy makes 2/$12 each and can just be plugged in no matter what team you have.
So maybe you're having to attach a pick there if it's "at all costs" too.
I think there are deals to be made for a creative front office. We don't have that. It would defeat the purpose to send out any kind of 1st rd pick to tank. The whole point is to accumulate picks. I think it would be pretty dumb to send out seconds, too, unless better picks are coming back.
What I don't get is criticizing people who think the team should lose games and lose them now. That's the only path to making luck right now.
The criticism is that 'losing games' is an end, not a means. I wholly support lambasting the front office for not achieving those ends, but am annoyed at the complaints that purport to have solutions but really don't
I've never thought that criticizing the front office had to come with an alternate plan to be valid. But then the take should be 'AKME already fucked this up and should be fired' not the bellyaching Gottlieb is putting out there on a daily basis (and like I mentioned his plan is pretty vague and limp)
Danny Ferry doesn't get enough credit for trading the untradeable Joe Johnson, but that involved a certified madman on the other end of the line. A Zach trade that doesn't involve a subtraction of assets might have that prerequisite of requiring an idiot and/or idiot under pressure. And then that idiot has to have very specific payroll assets.
I thought the Clippers might be this version of the Billy King Nets: new stadium, team under pressure to perform, just lost their 2nd best player. Two months later it's hard to agree they would see Zach as such an upgrade over Norman Powell, who almost has to be included, to the point they'd be willing to pay 2.5x as much per year for him.
Edit: Likely the most consequential moves they could make right now would be to trade Coby and Ayo for future draft compensation, and both seem totally doable. Yeah, they should take a deal for LaVine and Vucevic if a painless one appears. Yet I think trading their two best guards away will instantly result in "bad" play. That's "at all costs" to me, yet it seems like a very controversial move to the fanbase demanding a tank!
I don't know what it says that the last time the Bulls were somewhat relevant in the championship picture, it was because they hit the lottery jackpot without actually tanking. The best possible magical dream land outcome for their aim for the middle philosophy actually happened, and it's like Reinsdorf has been chasing that same high ever since.
Noah: Knicks pick received for thrashing Isiah in a trade
Gordon: From when they were really bad even though Paxson thought, and planned, for them to be pretty good.
Kirk: The previous pick that fell to 7th when Chicago ended the season strong. Four of the first five picks were hall of famers.
Deng: Acquired from Phoenix for the Bulls' unprotected pick the following year. Maybe the most gangster move John Paxson ever made.
In short, they robbed a blind man, made an exceptionally risky trade and got picks when they were unexpectedly bad and unexpectedly good. None of these were planned, though they did make their own luck.
Right which is why it was such a remote chance they were going to win that lottery, because they did have so many young good players. The dorfs wouldn't mind lottery luck but aren't willing to go full Wizards, and aren't willing to do it for multiple years. It's an indictment on AKME that such drastic measures would be seen as the only way out. But no matter bc even if AKME agreed, they'd never be able to convince the Reinsdorfs to go for it anyway
he includes in there a line "Porter may be able to help the Bulls find [a star] by improving their draft stock. The Bulls need to start losing games fast". Last night in a podcast with Marc Stein, Gottlieb was asking if these talks were going to the trade deadline as the Bulls can't wait that long
This is my point: if you're going to argue that it's that important to lose games now, tell me what you're willing to do that shows that urgency. To be fair, Gottlieb does more or less say he'd accept MPJ+Nnaji and that's not really "positive value" for LaVine.
But Gottlieb doesn't say AKME (who are probably holding out for a better offer) needs to take this offer now. Or that he would throw in Julian Phillips, let alone some draft asset, to grease the wheels. Or (my idea) that LaVine should be shut down now until a trade is made, his value is what it is and he is more likely to get hurt again than raise it.
as for how I'd do a Denver trade, I'd take whatever honestly. It'd be of benefit to the Bulls to simply break up LaVine's deal into smaller chunks
I don't think swapping LaVine out now for MPJ would even make much of a difference lottery-wise, because LaVine is not that good I don't care about his pace-inflated counting stats. MPJ actually makes more sense in their lineup, and potentially opening up growth for White and Giddey. And I don't agree with Gottlieb's assertion that MPJ is a worse defender even while taller, he's really bad but being tall does matter.
and that's again bringing me to the tanking obsession. With that logic, you wouldn't *want* Coby White to get better, or a bigger defensive lineup, because you may win games!
anyway if I were the Bulls I'd do what was necessary up until including their own picks. Swapping Torrey Craig for Dario Saric ($5M player option next year, AKME still running things in Denver wtf), including Julian Phillips, maybe some kind of pick swap involving the protected Portland pick.
another small treat for the Nuggets is swapping Julian Phillips for DaRon Holmes.
Holmes was just drafted in the 1st round, but is out for the season. Phillips is probably the better prospect at the moment, and is $1.8M versus $3M for Holmes.
Hey guys. I've been AFK for a while due to a lot of traveling (a full month on the road) and being sick (before, during and after the trip... 0/10... do not recommend).
Last time I had time/energy to look at sports, the Bulls were solidly in 4th in the East and moving up. Just checked in and saw we dominated Boston. Bulls doing Bulls things.
So it's clear the Bulls are outperforming expectations and making a real playoff push. Clearly there are no possible negatives from that and BaB is full of positivity at this point, right?
I'm starting to think this is Zach's final act of revenge on this team. A final "fuck you" by getting the Bulls to the play-in and then losing their pick before possibly being traded.
I love the footnotes, got some academic chops huh. And some of the reasoning here is good, but the language and composition need to be cleaned up to be considered journalism. The latter might also help you clear up your thoughts/arguments--clear structures lead to clear content.
They can and should trade their vets and tank now. They should have started sooner, but now is the next best time. 7th is better than 10th. 6th is better still. They should avoid the play-in at all costs and get as low as they can. I don't see what's hard to understand about this.
The hard thing to understand isn't that more lottery balls is better, it's what 'at all costs' means to you when you suggest nothing actually costly
I think what yfBB is getting at is what "at all costs" means. It is arguable right now that parting with Zach LaVine might require draft compensation being *sent out*. Virtually every day there's another article quoting some coward GM who says that in 2017, Zach would have been traded by now but the Bulls might not get a single offer this year. Not an offer worth considering, but any offer at all.
Vuc doesn't seem to be as dire but I do believe the recent claim by one of the ESPN drones that there are a lot of centers on the market and the extra year + his deficiencies make Vuc one of the less desirable ones. Atlanta has been trying to trade Capela, who does not have those deficiencies and is an expiring that makes the same as Vuc but for one year less, and hasn't yet been able to. Valenciunas is also in that bucket. Robert Williams III if he gets healthy makes 2/$12 each and can just be plugged in no matter what team you have.
So maybe you're having to attach a pick there if it's "at all costs" too.
I think there are deals to be made for a creative front office. We don't have that. It would defeat the purpose to send out any kind of 1st rd pick to tank. The whole point is to accumulate picks. I think it would be pretty dumb to send out seconds, too, unless better picks are coming back.
What I don't get is criticizing people who think the team should lose games and lose them now. That's the only path to making luck right now.
The criticism is that 'losing games' is an end, not a means. I wholly support lambasting the front office for not achieving those ends, but am annoyed at the complaints that purport to have solutions but really don't
I've never thought that criticizing the front office had to come with an alternate plan to be valid. But then the take should be 'AKME already fucked this up and should be fired' not the bellyaching Gottlieb is putting out there on a daily basis (and like I mentioned his plan is pretty vague and limp)
This group is certainly not creative.
Danny Ferry doesn't get enough credit for trading the untradeable Joe Johnson, but that involved a certified madman on the other end of the line. A Zach trade that doesn't involve a subtraction of assets might have that prerequisite of requiring an idiot and/or idiot under pressure. And then that idiot has to have very specific payroll assets.
I thought the Clippers might be this version of the Billy King Nets: new stadium, team under pressure to perform, just lost their 2nd best player. Two months later it's hard to agree they would see Zach as such an upgrade over Norman Powell, who almost has to be included, to the point they'd be willing to pay 2.5x as much per year for him.
Edit: Likely the most consequential moves they could make right now would be to trade Coby and Ayo for future draft compensation, and both seem totally doable. Yeah, they should take a deal for LaVine and Vucevic if a painless one appears. Yet I think trading their two best guards away will instantly result in "bad" play. That's "at all costs" to me, yet it seems like a very controversial move to the fanbase demanding a tank!
So “at all costs” but not really?
I don't know what it says that the last time the Bulls were somewhat relevant in the championship picture, it was because they hit the lottery jackpot without actually tanking. The best possible magical dream land outcome for their aim for the middle philosophy actually happened, and it's like Reinsdorf has been chasing that same high ever since.
But even lucking into Rose was after collecting multiple good players with lotto picks. Noah, Gordon, Kirk, Lu.
Worth breaking those down, isn't it?
Noah: Knicks pick received for thrashing Isiah in a trade
Gordon: From when they were really bad even though Paxson thought, and planned, for them to be pretty good.
Kirk: The previous pick that fell to 7th when Chicago ended the season strong. Four of the first five picks were hall of famers.
Deng: Acquired from Phoenix for the Bulls' unprotected pick the following year. Maybe the most gangster move John Paxson ever made.
In short, they robbed a blind man, made an exceptionally risky trade and got picks when they were unexpectedly bad and unexpectedly good. None of these were planned, though they did make their own luck.
Right which is why it was such a remote chance they were going to win that lottery, because they did have so many young good players. The dorfs wouldn't mind lottery luck but aren't willing to go full Wizards, and aren't willing to do it for multiple years. It's an indictment on AKME that such drastic measures would be seen as the only way out. But no matter bc even if AKME agreed, they'd never be able to convince the Reinsdorfs to go for it anyway
i'll continue to rag on Will but link his work (so it's OK) today it's about the LaVine-Nuggets rumor https://allchgo.com/zach-lavine-chicago-bulls-trade-denver-nuggets/
he includes in there a line "Porter may be able to help the Bulls find [a star] by improving their draft stock. The Bulls need to start losing games fast". Last night in a podcast with Marc Stein, Gottlieb was asking if these talks were going to the trade deadline as the Bulls can't wait that long
This is my point: if you're going to argue that it's that important to lose games now, tell me what you're willing to do that shows that urgency. To be fair, Gottlieb does more or less say he'd accept MPJ+Nnaji and that's not really "positive value" for LaVine.
But Gottlieb doesn't say AKME (who are probably holding out for a better offer) needs to take this offer now. Or that he would throw in Julian Phillips, let alone some draft asset, to grease the wheels. Or (my idea) that LaVine should be shut down now until a trade is made, his value is what it is and he is more likely to get hurt again than raise it.
as for how I'd do a Denver trade, I'd take whatever honestly. It'd be of benefit to the Bulls to simply break up LaVine's deal into smaller chunks
I don't think swapping LaVine out now for MPJ would even make much of a difference lottery-wise, because LaVine is not that good I don't care about his pace-inflated counting stats. MPJ actually makes more sense in their lineup, and potentially opening up growth for White and Giddey. And I don't agree with Gottlieb's assertion that MPJ is a worse defender even while taller, he's really bad but being tall does matter.
and that's again bringing me to the tanking obsession. With that logic, you wouldn't *want* Coby White to get better, or a bigger defensive lineup, because you may win games!
anyway if I were the Bulls I'd do what was necessary up until including their own picks. Swapping Torrey Craig for Dario Saric ($5M player option next year, AKME still running things in Denver wtf), including Julian Phillips, maybe some kind of pick swap involving the protected Portland pick.
another small treat for the Nuggets is swapping Julian Phillips for DaRon Holmes.
Holmes was just drafted in the 1st round, but is out for the season. Phillips is probably the better prospect at the moment, and is $1.8M versus $3M for Holmes.
Thanks for being a loyal reader, Matt
Celtics Game Thread is UP https://open.substack.com/chat/posts/23aff967-3f42-4330-942d-9d29864871b6
Bulls are not tanking, evidenced by them holding out Josh Giddey
Hey guys. I've been AFK for a while due to a lot of traveling (a full month on the road) and being sick (before, during and after the trip... 0/10... do not recommend).
Last time I had time/energy to look at sports, the Bulls were solidly in 4th in the East and moving up. Just checked in and saw we dominated Boston. Bulls doing Bulls things.
So it's clear the Bulls are outperforming expectations and making a real playoff push. Clearly there are no possible negatives from that and BaB is full of positivity at this point, right?
I wouldn't say positivity but a bit more serenity. Luck is the plan.
I'm starting to think this is Zach's final act of revenge on this team. A final "fuck you" by getting the Bulls to the play-in and then losing their pick before possibly being traded.
NEW POST on LaVine-Denver rumor https://www.blogabull.com/p/zach-lavine-trade-door-actually-opens
I love the footnotes, got some academic chops huh. And some of the reasoning here is good, but the language and composition need to be cleaned up to be considered journalism. The latter might also help you clear up your thoughts/arguments--clear structures lead to clear content.