Not gonna lie, Matt is the last person I expected to be on the Zach-for-Dame trade train.
I don't think trading for Lillard is necessarily the best move ever, but it at least gives this Bulls team a direction, which is something we've all been begging for since Lonzo went down.
I don't even know what a trade would look like though. The only way I'm okay with it is if the Bulls only lose Lavine and future picks.
I think a Bulls trade package could beat Miami's offer, IF they could first get a lot of useful stuff - and no long-term money - for LaVine. Clearly Portland doesn't want LaVine.
So Bulls can start with one FRP (2027-30 are available to trade), give back Portland's protected pick from the Lauri deal, and Patrick Williams. I think they'd really like Williams since he's still extremely young and actually tall (all their young guys are guards). Sure he's due for a raise but their books will be pretty clear post-Dame.
Then additional outgoing money and hopefully another asset from a LaVine trade...I was thinking maybe the Sixers? Get involved in their stalemate with Harden+Clippers.
this works money-wise:
Bulls: Lillard, Daniel House (expiring)
Sixers: LaVine
Clippers: Harden
Blazers: Morris+Covington (expiring), Williams, Terrence Mann, 2027 FRP from Bulls, protected pick back from Bulls
But I don't think that's enough for Portland. They likely don't even want Mann (26 already and another guard), so maybe get a 5th team involved to get a pick instead for him.
Then it's a question of if the Clippers would include a first to get Harden, and/or the Sixers would give up a future first to go from Harden to LaVine. LaVine's under contract, but...LaVine's under contract.
If they both did, even with protections, Portland could spin they're getting Patrick Williams and potentially 5 picks, and that beats what Miami was offering.
I think they want to roll with Scott/Shaedon backcourt and start over. Zack to them is a non-starter. If they trade Lillard, then they are commiting to a rebuild so what is the point of bringing in Zach....
I know it's a slow offseason but this isn't going to happen so why even bother.....
When you look at the path forward after a trade like this it becomes clear why rebuild is the only option. I'm not discounting Dame's value. But....the Heat get Dame and they can win a championship. We get Dame and we only get ourselves in MORE trouble moving forward -- we get older, we probably lose a few young pieces in the deal, and it's unlikely we get past the first round anyway.
That seems about right. But that team ages out quickly and has zero assets -- including, likely, it's own picks traded or swapped -- for half a decade in order to acquire Lillard.
The honest truth is all of these supposed trade rumors really do nothing for the Bulls but are designed to strengthen the trading team but puts the Bulls back into basement territory for at least 4-6 years awaiting some supposed rookie to become an instant championship player. Good luck with that. Do us all a favor and don't promote these "what if maybe/ If only/ I hope" scenarios as being anywhere realistic. I not saying that fans can't dream but Really!!!!
I know I'm higher than most on Williams, but he's honestly probably this team's best hope for a decent future. Trading him for a couple years of fun from Dame is hard to swallow.
Edit: Whoops, definitely meant this to be a reply to yfbb's response to my original comment.
Yeah. I mean I'm a big Dame fan but I feel like the ship has sailed on this one. After being quite the durable player I wonder if he's breaking down too. Doesn't help our age issues. Always shitty when these guys sign extensions and then decide they want out a year later.
Maybe, the calf thing started at the beginning of the season though. idk. He's missed quite a bit since covid and is only getting older. Plus, the bulls injury history....
Hell no. The ceiling on a Bulls team with Dame and without Zach is a second round knockout. And that's in year one when Dame is still in decent shape. It only gets worse from there. Dame trades only make sense for teams that are either ready to compete for a title now (Miami) or very young teams stocked with legit prospects where Dame could expedite their development (OKC, SA). Neither describes the Bulls.
Play-in knockout. Dame would be an upgrade for sure, but we're taking on a massive contract for a guy likely to significantly decline for a fun season?
Yes, we'd get off of a massive contract but also add other assets from an already bare cupboard to get someone better but also older and more expensive. The Bulls would be in cap hell without the ready means to restock the rest of the roster on the cheap. And the longevity of short guards in the NBA isn't great. Look, if we had a FO like Miami I'd say just get the real star and figure the rest out later, but that's not what we have so I look in the crystal ball 3 years from now and see a diminished Dame and a bunch of trash around him limping to the 8th seed. My vote is to trade Zach and DDR for picks and prospects and go the rebuild route one more time (Daft Punk voice).
Any thoughts on targeting Hield? I mean, I'm sure AK's on vacation right now and doesn't even know about the situation, but still interesting to think about.
Bulls Central proposed Hield for Lonzo and the Bulls first round pick from Portland. I'd imagine that's not enough for Indiana, but I'd certainly be okay with that if Indiana were willing.
Anyone have any other trade scenarios that would be a little more likely? I'm thinking it would probably have to start with Caruso, but more would need to be added to match salaries and I'm not sure Hield is even as valuable as AC is anyway.
I'm all for lillard - only because its more interesting then just letting this roster play out and eventually go nowhere. So sure - go for it. Go get lillard. Either it works - or we expedite change.
Not lillard? Okay - go for harden. Just...i don't know....DO SOMETHING
Whole lot of smoke around LaVine right now. Not saying I expect anything to come to fruition before the season starts, but I have to believe this front office does not expect LaVine to be on this team by the start of the 24-25 season.
Makes me question why they'd re-sign Vooch this past off-season if they don't intend on keeping this core together. Also makes me scared they fully intend on building around DeMar, which would likely indicate a rather lucrative extension coming for him. If he signs an extension before the season starts, I think that would all but confirm Lavine is gone within the next year.
They had to resign vooch because they didn't trade him as they should have at the deadline. The moment the deadline passed and Vooch was still here, it was a guarantee that the bulls were resigning Vooch. If they didn't then it wasnt just a lost asset in vooch, but all the assets they gave up to get him. There's still a chance some contender gives us their expiring junk, a pick, or some young player they don't care to develop for the big man depth that is Vooch, as he is not talentless at all - just over priced for a 32 year no-longer all-star big. And as lame as that sounds, i guess it's better than just nothing.
I actually agree. As soon as the trade deadline passed, it was obvious Vooch would re-sign with the Bulls.
I should have put "Makes me wonder why they didn't trade Vooch" in my original comment. The point still stands though. If AKME doesn't believe in this core, why not start unloading it when Vooch's contact was going to expire instead of holding onto him?
This will not happen, of course. But if the Bulls can swap Zach for Lillard, it would be insane not to do it. The most important fact about this franchise is that whatever the strategy is, it will be done poorly. The move that will be most resilient to their bungling is landing a superstar, and Lillard is pretty close to that. Passing on Lillard to either continue whatever this is or to get a head start on bungling another rebuild would be very stupid.
Bears showing why mediocre hell is way better than rebuilding. Bulls (like Bears) don’t have a front office with proven draft picking superiority and/or a track record of winning trades. If we had Danny Ainge, then ok…. I’d rather have a coin flip shot at watching a victory than a chance in hell!
Just so everyone knows, here's what going to happen and why re-signing all their own players was stupid.
Bulls make the play-in, either don't make the playoffs or lose in 4 or 5 games to the Bucks, Celtics, or Sixers. DeRozan leaves because he wants to play for a contender in his last few years. You either let Patrick Williams leave for nothing or re-sign him for $10-$15 million (I guess?), and because you just HAD to re-sign Vucevic and Coby White and Ayo Dosunmu, you have either $15 million or $30 million in cap space to add to a team that (sans DDR and Williams) projects to about 35 wins.
This team is already mired in mediocrity hell, and they solidified themselves there by re-signing Vuc, White, and Dosunmu. You can't win in today's NBA if you have more than 2 highly-paid players paid appropriately. You either need rookie-contract guys producing like starters to stars or superstars getting underpaid on max contracts. The Bulls have like 7 guys paid "appropriately" or slightly overpaid in DeRozan, LaVine, Vucevic, White, Dosunmu, Caruso, and Carter. None of those guys, indvidually are a bad contract, but when you don't have a Derrick Rose on a rookie contract, or a Jimmy Butler on a $20 million/year contract or a prime LBJ or Steph Curry, you just can't get the wins to compete.
We do need to trade DeRozan (won’t resign) and Caruso (at peak value). DeRozan for Jerami Grant works financially. I’m sure Portland wants assets instead of just getting off his contract tho. Giving back their pick (that will never convey) would mean we lose that trade, but it sets up continuity for years and years to come!
rumor mill now has the Raptors in the drivers seat for Lillard.
I don't think I believe it, but it brings to mind again how different the mindsets are when considering Raptors vs Bulls. I think both franchises are getting slagged for being 'in the middle', And it's an argument that Raptors are in better position already and maybe not that much worse of a present-day team.
But people expect Raptors to do something and get annoyed when they don't. But with the Bulls it's more resignation of "well, they clearly want this".
hey now, just today they were saying there's a cracklin' PG competition to look forward to this training camp, which will be held out of town because their big learning experience from exit interviews was, uh, that the team didn't feel like a team enough
So Portland indeed held out for what they thought was the best deal for them instead of Lillard's "demand" that he only play in Miami.
It's interesting to see the final haul for the Blazers, especially that Jrue Holiday is not immediately re-routed to a 3rd team. They're obviously comfortable in thinking they can get that done soon for some assets, something they must not have felt when it came to Zach LaVine. And even at his current contract, Deandre Ayton has more value than Patrick Williams.
in conclusion: no Bulls fault! couldn't beat this offer because they're in an even worse position asset-wise than a team that won the title two years ago.
Ironically I think Lillard has a far better chance at winning a title in Milwaukee than he would have had in Miami.
It's incredibly embarrassing that a team that has been perpetually contending for titles has more assets to trade than a team that has been one of the worst teams in the league for the past five years...
a caveat: the Bucks did trade a boatload of picks for that asset in the first place (Jrue Holiday)
Still doesn't mean the Bulls were wrong to give their similarly-tiered player a max contract, but does make all the LaVine fans on Bulls Twitter wrong that he should be seen as a valuable asset.
Not gonna lie, Matt is the last person I expected to be on the Zach-for-Dame trade train.
I don't think trading for Lillard is necessarily the best move ever, but it at least gives this Bulls team a direction, which is something we've all been begging for since Lonzo went down.
I don't even know what a trade would look like though. The only way I'm okay with it is if the Bulls only lose Lavine and future picks.
I think a Bulls trade package could beat Miami's offer, IF they could first get a lot of useful stuff - and no long-term money - for LaVine. Clearly Portland doesn't want LaVine.
So Bulls can start with one FRP (2027-30 are available to trade), give back Portland's protected pick from the Lauri deal, and Patrick Williams. I think they'd really like Williams since he's still extremely young and actually tall (all their young guys are guards). Sure he's due for a raise but their books will be pretty clear post-Dame.
Then additional outgoing money and hopefully another asset from a LaVine trade...I was thinking maybe the Sixers? Get involved in their stalemate with Harden+Clippers.
this works money-wise:
Bulls: Lillard, Daniel House (expiring)
Sixers: LaVine
Clippers: Harden
Blazers: Morris+Covington (expiring), Williams, Terrence Mann, 2027 FRP from Bulls, protected pick back from Bulls
But I don't think that's enough for Portland. They likely don't even want Mann (26 already and another guard), so maybe get a 5th team involved to get a pick instead for him.
Then it's a question of if the Clippers would include a first to get Harden, and/or the Sixers would give up a future first to go from Harden to LaVine. LaVine's under contract, but...LaVine's under contract.
If they both did, even with protections, Portland could spin they're getting Patrick Williams and potentially 5 picks, and that beats what Miami was offering.
There is no way Portland does this.
I think they want to roll with Scott/Shaedon backcourt and start over. Zack to them is a non-starter. If they trade Lillard, then they are commiting to a rebuild so what is the point of bringing in Zach....
I know it's a slow offseason but this isn't going to happen so why even bother.....
it's indeed a slow offseason, so take the time and read the post. I wasn't saying Portland would trade Lillard for LaVine
When you look at the path forward after a trade like this it becomes clear why rebuild is the only option. I'm not discounting Dame's value. But....the Heat get Dame and they can win a championship. We get Dame and we only get ourselves in MORE trouble moving forward -- we get older, we probably lose a few young pieces in the deal, and it's unlikely we get past the first round anyway.
I'd say it's more than likely they get past the first round, and that's well short of a championship but still not nothing.
Start: Lillard/Caruso/DeRozan/Craig/Vucevic
Bench: White, Carter, Dosunmu, Drummond
need to sign some forward (Javonte Green, sure), and likely trade Dalen Terry for another
That seems about right. But that team ages out quickly and has zero assets -- including, likely, it's own picks traded or swapped -- for half a decade in order to acquire Lillard.
then after it fails in 2 years you rebuild anyway
I think Lillard's contract is due until 2026-2027 (Player Option), with a massive 63M in the final year.
The honest truth is all of these supposed trade rumors really do nothing for the Bulls but are designed to strengthen the trading team but puts the Bulls back into basement territory for at least 4-6 years awaiting some supposed rookie to become an instant championship player. Good luck with that. Do us all a favor and don't promote these "what if maybe/ If only/ I hope" scenarios as being anywhere realistic. I not saying that fans can't dream but Really!!!!
I know I'm higher than most on Williams, but he's honestly probably this team's best hope for a decent future. Trading him for a couple years of fun from Dame is hard to swallow.
Edit: Whoops, definitely meant this to be a reply to yfbb's response to my original comment.
Yeah. I mean I'm a big Dame fan but I feel like the ship has sailed on this one. After being quite the durable player I wonder if he's breaking down too. Doesn't help our age issues. Always shitty when these guys sign extensions and then decide they want out a year later.
I'm optimistic in thinking that core muscle surgery fixed whatever was bothering him, then other ailments were tanking related
Maybe, the calf thing started at the beginning of the season though. idk. He's missed quite a bit since covid and is only getting older. Plus, the bulls injury history....
Hell no. The ceiling on a Bulls team with Dame and without Zach is a second round knockout. And that's in year one when Dame is still in decent shape. It only gets worse from there. Dame trades only make sense for teams that are either ready to compete for a title now (Miami) or very young teams stocked with legit prospects where Dame could expedite their development (OKC, SA). Neither describes the Bulls.
What’s the ceiling now? First round sweep?
Play-in knockout. Dame would be an upgrade for sure, but we're taking on a massive contract for a guy likely to significantly decline for a fun season?
You'd be getting off a massive contract too
And I don't find it that predetermined that Dame has one good year left. It's about as likely as Zach avoiding knee trouble
Yes, we'd get off of a massive contract but also add other assets from an already bare cupboard to get someone better but also older and more expensive. The Bulls would be in cap hell without the ready means to restock the rest of the roster on the cheap. And the longevity of short guards in the NBA isn't great. Look, if we had a FO like Miami I'd say just get the real star and figure the rest out later, but that's not what we have so I look in the crystal ball 3 years from now and see a diminished Dame and a bunch of trash around him limping to the 8th seed. My vote is to trade Zach and DDR for picks and prospects and go the rebuild route one more time (Daft Punk voice).
Their contracts are also not even on the same scale. Dame's 26-27 PO is 15 million dollars more than Zach's. D:
One fun season is more fun than what the past several seasons have been, and what I foresee the next several seasons of being.
NO!!!
I love this team too much, you can't break it up!
That would be like changing one of the main actors in a sitcom.
Any thoughts on targeting Hield? I mean, I'm sure AK's on vacation right now and doesn't even know about the situation, but still interesting to think about.
Bulls Central proposed Hield for Lonzo and the Bulls first round pick from Portland. I'd imagine that's not enough for Indiana, but I'd certainly be okay with that if Indiana were willing.
Anyone have any other trade scenarios that would be a little more likely? I'm thinking it would probably have to start with Caruso, but more would need to be added to match salaries and I'm not sure Hield is even as valuable as AC is anyway.
Definitely wouldn't for Caruso, and agreed Pacers say no to Ball even with pick attached. Also maybe Heild doesn't play without an extension
I'm all for lillard - only because its more interesting then just letting this roster play out and eventually go nowhere. So sure - go for it. Go get lillard. Either it works - or we expedite change.
Not lillard? Okay - go for harden. Just...i don't know....DO SOMETHING
Whole lot of smoke around LaVine right now. Not saying I expect anything to come to fruition before the season starts, but I have to believe this front office does not expect LaVine to be on this team by the start of the 24-25 season.
Makes me question why they'd re-sign Vooch this past off-season if they don't intend on keeping this core together. Also makes me scared they fully intend on building around DeMar, which would likely indicate a rather lucrative extension coming for him. If he signs an extension before the season starts, I think that would all but confirm Lavine is gone within the next year.
They had to resign vooch because they didn't trade him as they should have at the deadline. The moment the deadline passed and Vooch was still here, it was a guarantee that the bulls were resigning Vooch. If they didn't then it wasnt just a lost asset in vooch, but all the assets they gave up to get him. There's still a chance some contender gives us their expiring junk, a pick, or some young player they don't care to develop for the big man depth that is Vooch, as he is not talentless at all - just over priced for a 32 year no-longer all-star big. And as lame as that sounds, i guess it's better than just nothing.
I actually agree. As soon as the trade deadline passed, it was obvious Vooch would re-sign with the Bulls.
I should have put "Makes me wonder why they didn't trade Vooch" in my original comment. The point still stands though. If AKME doesn't believe in this core, why not start unloading it when Vooch's contact was going to expire instead of holding onto him?
This will not happen, of course. But if the Bulls can swap Zach for Lillard, it would be insane not to do it. The most important fact about this franchise is that whatever the strategy is, it will be done poorly. The move that will be most resilient to their bungling is landing a superstar, and Lillard is pretty close to that. Passing on Lillard to either continue whatever this is or to get a head start on bungling another rebuild would be very stupid.
Bears showing why mediocre hell is way better than rebuilding. Bulls (like Bears) don’t have a front office with proven draft picking superiority and/or a track record of winning trades. If we had Danny Ainge, then ok…. I’d rather have a coin flip shot at watching a victory than a chance in hell!
Just so everyone knows, here's what going to happen and why re-signing all their own players was stupid.
Bulls make the play-in, either don't make the playoffs or lose in 4 or 5 games to the Bucks, Celtics, or Sixers. DeRozan leaves because he wants to play for a contender in his last few years. You either let Patrick Williams leave for nothing or re-sign him for $10-$15 million (I guess?), and because you just HAD to re-sign Vucevic and Coby White and Ayo Dosunmu, you have either $15 million or $30 million in cap space to add to a team that (sans DDR and Williams) projects to about 35 wins.
This team is already mired in mediocrity hell, and they solidified themselves there by re-signing Vuc, White, and Dosunmu. You can't win in today's NBA if you have more than 2 highly-paid players paid appropriately. You either need rookie-contract guys producing like starters to stars or superstars getting underpaid on max contracts. The Bulls have like 7 guys paid "appropriately" or slightly overpaid in DeRozan, LaVine, Vucevic, White, Dosunmu, Caruso, and Carter. None of those guys, indvidually are a bad contract, but when you don't have a Derrick Rose on a rookie contract, or a Jimmy Butler on a $20 million/year contract or a prime LBJ or Steph Curry, you just can't get the wins to compete.
We do need to trade DeRozan (won’t resign) and Caruso (at peak value). DeRozan for Jerami Grant works financially. I’m sure Portland wants assets instead of just getting off his contract tho. Giving back their pick (that will never convey) would mean we lose that trade, but it sets up continuity for years and years to come!
rumor mill now has the Raptors in the drivers seat for Lillard.
I don't think I believe it, but it brings to mind again how different the mindsets are when considering Raptors vs Bulls. I think both franchises are getting slagged for being 'in the middle', And it's an argument that Raptors are in better position already and maybe not that much worse of a present-day team.
But people expect Raptors to do something and get annoyed when they don't. But with the Bulls it's more resignation of "well, they clearly want this".
Dame to bucks.... Lol
Bulls management doing their best by doing nothing. Mediocrity hell sucks
hey now, just today they were saying there's a cracklin' PG competition to look forward to this training camp, which will be held out of town because their big learning experience from exit interviews was, uh, that the team didn't feel like a team enough
So Portland indeed held out for what they thought was the best deal for them instead of Lillard's "demand" that he only play in Miami.
It's interesting to see the final haul for the Blazers, especially that Jrue Holiday is not immediately re-routed to a 3rd team. They're obviously comfortable in thinking they can get that done soon for some assets, something they must not have felt when it came to Zach LaVine. And even at his current contract, Deandre Ayton has more value than Patrick Williams.
in conclusion: no Bulls fault! couldn't beat this offer because they're in an even worse position asset-wise than a team that won the title two years ago.
Ironically I think Lillard has a far better chance at winning a title in Milwaukee than he would have had in Miami.
It's incredibly embarrassing that a team that has been perpetually contending for titles has more assets to trade than a team that has been one of the worst teams in the league for the past five years...
a caveat: the Bucks did trade a boatload of picks for that asset in the first place (Jrue Holiday)
Still doesn't mean the Bulls were wrong to give their similarly-tiered player a max contract, but does make all the LaVine fans on Bulls Twitter wrong that he should be seen as a valuable asset.
I guess it depends what the definition of "valuable" is. Zach has value. It's just not as much as his contract would make you think.