I think both the starting lineup and the bench would be better than last year, especially the bench. I think I'd actually enjoy watching that bench more than the starters. They'd probably still get knocked out of the first round, but I think they'd be more competitive in general and more fun.
It's funny how different our line-ups are. I guess it tells you about the state of the team right now. I think it's going to be Starters: Coby, Zach, DeMar, P-Will, Vuc and Bench: Carter, Caruso, Craig, Drummond as the main 4 used.
Maybe I should have clarified. I think your lineup is what we'll actually see. My lineup is what I'd prefer to see.
I think (or at least hope) that Coby and Pat are better than Carter and Craig. The problem is they're both guys that need the ball in their hands to be at their best, especially Pat. So starting them with the "big 3" isn't going to utilize them fully because they'll barely get the ball.
Craig and Carter are both guys who have made careers for themselves by being the type of guys you can have on the court with ball-dominant stars because they know how to impact the game in other ways. So even though I don't think they're as good as Coby and Pat, I think they'd fit in with the "big 3" better and I think Coby and Pat would have more of an impact off the bench. Plus, I'd like to see Pat play some SF this year, and the only way he's doing that is off the bench.
KC Johnson had a recent article that provided that nice cold bucket of water on all this sensible Christian Woods talk. Bulls aren't going to go into tax for woods and woods wont accept less than the bulls doe (for the Bulls at least) so there we are.
Slightly off topic, but I'm so sick of the "Vooch isn't a bad defender. They had the fifth best defense last year" talking point. Vooch isn't such a bad defender that it's impossible to have a good defense with him on the team. He's bad enough, though, that you have to make sacrifices elsewhere to make up for his bad defense.
So are Lavine and DeMar, obviously. But they're good enough on offense to make up for that. Vooch isn't. He's decent offensively but not so much so that he makes up for what he lacks defensively. This team had to make sacrifices offensively to be a good defensive team. They never went for offensive rebounds so that they could get back on defense, for instance.
Ultimately having three bad defenders as your best players was never going to work out. Overpaying two of them just makes it that much worse. I'm afraid for next summer, because I have a feeling AK's going to give DeMar a big, fat extension...
I'll actually push back on that a little bit. Yes, AK absolutely overpaid for Vooch. There's no denying that. However, assuming he didn't know he'd be signing DeMar the following offseason, I actually think the Vooch and Zach pairing was a pretty good idea.
We also know AK was trying to get Lonzo at that deadline too, so it's clear he was trying to add Vooch as a secondary scorer to Zach and then Lonzo as a primary ball handler and defensive ball stopper.
I think the big mistake, if you can even call it that, was signing DeMar. The DeMar signing in a vacuum isn't bad. He's clearly the Bulls best player, so it's hard to say it was bad. The problem with that signing was that DeMar's game is basically the complete opposite of what it seemed like AK was trying to build.
I think the opportunity to potentially sign DeMar sort of manifested out of nowhere and it was too good for AK to pass up. He hoped that adding DeMar's abilities would make up for the fact that he really didn't fit on the team.
Anyway, that signing, in my opinion, is what really screwed over Vooch. Vooch needs the ball in his hands to be at his best, and that's just hard to do when there are two better scorers on the team. Also, the Bulls could get away with starting two bad defenders, but it's much harder to get away with starting three bad defenders.
So yeah, I don't love Vooch on this team, but I also don't think a lot of it is his fault. I think DeMar was too good to pass up, but they needed to go into it knowing if those three didn't work together, someone would need to go. Vooch is the worst of those three, so they probably should have traded him last offseason (or at the very latest, last trade deadline) when they realized it wasn't going to work out.
This is the proper take. You have two high-usage guys, one of whom is slow and plodding, and add a third who is also high-usage and is also slow and methodical and you get the results you see on the court now.
Vooch is good but not good enough to be the second option. His three-point shooting is decent for a big but not good enough to be a floor stretcher/catch-and-shoot guy when Zach isn't open and Demar dumps the ball off after 22 seconds of ISO work.
Acne was definitely scheming to sign Debo. Vuc played with him at USC. Acne even said the Vuc signing was a success because it helped them get D. Vuc was his first move and he certainly had some possibilities laid out beyond it.
I guess I just wonder how much of that was planned. Or was it just that all of a sudden the Lakers weren't as interested in DeMar as everyone had thought and AK called Vooch into his office and was like "You played ball with DeMar in college, right? Give him a call and put him on speakerphone. I'll offer him a pile of cash and tell him he can lead the team."
Not saying you're wrong, but this could have all been a happy accident that AK tried to spin as him having some master plan. So far AK hasn't seemed like much of a planner, which makes me kind of doubt he had some master plan to combine three B/C-tier stars who can't defend.
Javonte Green played for the Montenegrin national team with Vuc (not sure how). Debo and Javonte were moves were to get on Vuc’s good side. Definitely premeditated.
The DDR as the problem take is refreshing, and reflects my PoV as well. Good guy, incredible hard-shot maker. Seems for some reason reluctant to fit into a team framework. I truly wonder if had zero value -- two time all-star, big-time scorer, beloved figure. Last trade deadline was the best time, now was second best, beyond this will be tough, an extension will bury the Bulls (and me) (and hopefully AK if that happens).
Throw DeMar out of it, and just look at the Vuc trade. We traded Carter and two high picks for a guy who was, in many ways, inferior to a guy (Thad) we already had on the roster. We didn't get any better. And it led directly to the departure of Lauri, who's also a better player.
He's a non-defending, jump-shooting center. Essentially, this generation's Carlos Boozer.
Signing DeMar just covered up what a train wreck the Vuc trade was for a little while.
It's not a revisionist take though. First, I said that the Bulls gave up way too much in that trade, so we absolutely agree there.
Second, I didn't say it was a good trade and the only reason it didn't work out was because of DeMar. I said "it was a pretty good idea". Sure, maybe I should have clarified that more. It was a good idea on paper. Vooch looked like a monster in Orlando and adding him and Lonzo to this Bulls team seemed like a big step forward on paper.
As we all know, it certainly wasn't. I'm just saying that I think I get what AK was at least going for, even if he totally botched it.
one of the few reasons the Bulls are able to put up their "first place in January that one year" banner is because DeMar's MVP level play. Lonzo was also part of that 'vision' but so was DeMar.
They don't sign him, and Vuc is unencumbered (but not nearly as good an offensive player as DDR), they are a .500 team then probably miss the playoffs after Lonzo got hurt
Totally agree with you. Getting DeMar was the right move. I'm just saying DeMar was always going to limit Vooch. Is that a bad thing? Obviously not. But when it became clear Vooch doesn't do much for this team the way it is currently constructed (with DeMar), AKME should have moved him. He didn't and that's on him.
Vooch at this point is Carlos Boozer: good enough on offense for people who like him to say "he's a double-double machine!", but bad enough on defense to negate his double-double machine-ness in the starting lineup.
I disagree. His issue is he is not that good of an offensive player. He doesnt play with force or efficiency. And ultimately, despite his various high-level skills, what makes him an average offensive center at best is that he just isnt a good enough shooter. And putting the ball in his hands more would only further hurt the offense by clogging it up with inefficient post ups, mid range jumpers, and scant FTs and OREBS.
I think I'm confused. The entire point of my comment above is that he's not a good enough offensive player to make up for his bad defense. I never said he should get more touches, so I think we're in agreement.
Yeah, I was kind of replying to your comments in aggregate. You called Orlando Vooch "a monster". And suggested pairing him with just Zach, which would have put the ball in his hands a lot, would have worked. My comment is "no, it would not have. because Vooch in any context is just not a very good offensive center."
Hmm I guess I'm not sure if I wasn't clear enough in that comment or if you're just choosing to see what you want. I didn't call Vooch a monster in Orlando. I said he looked like a monster. As in how good he looked in Orlando was deceiving because he wasn't actually as good as he looked.
I also didn't say pairing him with Zach because it would allow the ball to be in his hands more would have worked. I said pairing him with Zach (or without DeMar if that's how you'd like to look at it) made more sense because he needs the ball in his hands to be at his best. Vooch being "at his best" doesn't mean he's a top 25 player in the league. It just means that's how he's most effective, even if that's a middle of the league center.
To sum up that entire comment you're referencing, since apparently it's worded poorly, my point was to say that Vooch would be better (not actually great, but better than what we've gotten) if DeMar weren't on this team. As I've stated multiple times in this thread, Vooch is not better than DeMar and AK obviously made the right move to sacrifice some of Vooch's effectiveness in return for DeMar.
I had also heard some rumors that Pat was going to finally become Kawhi this season but without the injury issues. I haven't haven't heard anything on that in a while. Any updates, yfbb??
What are people's general thoughts on what the starting lineup should be? Personally, I think Coby and Pat should come off the bench where they can run the second unit. Carter and Craig have made their names as guys who play well without ball in their hands. That's what the starting unit needs with how much the ball with be in the "big 3's" hands.
If the Bulls somehow managed to get their hands on Christian Wood (highly unlikely), I think they'd have a pretty fun, albeit still very flawed, 10 man rotation. AKME haven't moved the needle much this offseason, but I do think this team should be more cohesive than last year.
Agree 100% on the lineups. For a couple of reasons. Bulls aren't good enough to run a top 8, I'd rather have them think about two separate and balanced five man squads. And that will require PW and Coby to be strong bench scorers getting a lot of touches.
My other take is this: losing Lonzo killed this team, but so did placing both PW and Ayo in the starting lineup. They weren't ready and it's crazy AK thought they could help this otherwise win-now team.
Finally, I like Craig and Carter, but losing Jevonte and DJJ offsets them somewhat. I thought the Bulls had pretty decent depth, and a pretty decent top. But putting PW and Ayo in prime roles screwed up the total story -- even if I like them both they needed to be in a proper role.
Getting Christian Wood would kill any team cohesion gains we've made so far, unless Andre can give some epic "you're fumbling your bag just like I did" speech that gets nominated for an Oscar.
I guess it doesn't matter anyway. Now that we gave Ayo most of the remainder of our money under the luxury tax, whoever gets that last roster spot will absolutely be on a vet minimum.
Looking around the league, what is going on with the Jaylen Brown contract and the Harden/Dame trades? I had the sense that free agency was waiting on those things. Is the season going to start with them unresolved?
The Bulls are not using the DPE and Christian Wood is not coming here. The talk of that Turkish player seems to have just been smoke. So this is the roster.
Ayo is probably like the 9th guy on a good team so whether or not he comes back makes no real difference. That said, I'd prefer the Bulls keep him if only to retain an asset. Maybe the Bulls could package Ayo and Dalen (who stinks) in an "all upside" trade to a team that doesn't watch League Pass.
"Turkish G/F Onurlap Bitim has agreed on a two-way contract with the Chicago Bulls, sources tell ESPN. Bitim, 24, was a second-team EuroCup player for Bursaspor in Turkey."
I mean, I'd say he was probably the "best" of those three options. If only because he didn't cost the Bulls $32 million like Felicio and he at least made it onto the court unlike Marko.
We need to sign Christian Wood, if only to see the unstoppable offensive/stops no one defense lineup of Zach/Coby/Debo/Wood/Vuc. They could run-and-gun Loyola Marymount style. Also, where is Wood going to get signed at beyond minimum? There are not many options left. I think we can use the $4.5M biannual and be doubling his salary vs just about anyone else.
It's as senseless as anything else Garnisovas has done, which makes me think: there's a chance!
Vucevic and Wood are the same player. Vucevic rebounds (or collects uncontested rebounds) better, Wood blocks marginally more shots but per 36 they have nearly identical strengths and weaknesses. Some advanced stats on defense show Wood better, others show Vucevic better, but we all know they're both terrible. Wood will shoot a little better from the 3, Vucevic a little better from the line. But more or less they have identical strengths and weaknesses.
The difference is one is trying to find anything above the minimum and is still in his 20s and the other we're deluding ourselves is "tradeable" at probably 3x to 4x the salary and 3 more years on his contract on the day he signed it. On many teams Vucevic would have been the same as Wood last year, including the Mavs post-Kyrie trade.
So yeah, it makes no sense and thus total sense that they'll get him, leave him in cobwebs (NO BILLY FAULT here, I mean what is even the point in giving him minutes when he's the same as the starter?) and then trade him for, idk, another Joffrey Lauvergne that will play 10 games as an "intriguing player" and then quietly sign to play in China at this time next year.
If they hadn't given Drummond a player option they could have convinced DJJ to stay as backup 4/5 and/or signed someone a little more interesting like Wood. Drummond tied their hands at the center spot, and not in a good way.
idk - djj had a player option that he said he was going to pick up and then didn't. And hasn't signed anywhere else afaik. Unless you think the bulls would offer more if drummond weren't around? Not convinced about that.
Yes, I know both Drummond's and Jone's situations. I wouldn't have given Drummond a player option. And I personally would have worked to keep DJJ (I realize he chose to leave, seemed more about playing opportunity than money) and played him at the backup 4 and back-up small-ball 5. IMO, they tied their own hands and undervalued DJJ. They tie their own hands a lot and mis-value players constantly, IMO.
Yeah but in terms of playing time, it's not like Drummond was getting a ton either. I'm not saying you're wrong in terms of prioritization, but these two didn't seem like they were direct competition. Of course, the whole roster construction is bizarre.
I think that's where things get tough. The Bulls may be able to offer him more than most other teams, but I'm pretty sure he'd be coming in as a bench player. Would he rather come off the bench for a terrible Bulls franchise that no one pays attention to for $4.5 million or would he rather have a fairly significant role at the vet minimum on the uber-popular Lakers team that should at least make some noise in the playoffs?
To me he accepts the Bulls offer (pretending there is one obviously) if he knows he's going to be a vet minimum player the rest of his career. If he thinks he can have a bounce back year of sorts next year, he should take the vet minimum and play on a team that's actually kind of good where he'll have lots of eyeballs on him. Then he may be in a position to collect a larger, longer-term payday next summer.
Stop believing "we can fix him" with Christian Wood; seven franchises have tried that in just six seasons, including teams starved for talent. He's like the Bizarro Ish Smith - rather than playing on every team because of how useful he is, Wood will be on every team because he's an empty stats player AND terrible in the locker room.
I read there are like 6 teams with too many guaranteed contracts, so maybe there is a useful cut player available soon? Another reason why the market has slowed. Perhaps Garuba or Bertans? Wood is the biggest difference maker still available - much bigger than redundant Ayo.
Ok sorry for over-posting, but couldn’t we rescind Ayo’s offer, sign Liberty to a min, offer wood $8M, resulting in 14 players signed and still being under the cap???
What the actual fuck? Don't get me wrong, I like Ayo. He just doesn't fit on this team as currently constructed and he's certainly not worth $7 million a year...
What's with AK overpaying guys who have no other interested parties? Did Vooch share whatever blackmail he has on AK with Ayo or something? He and Ayo have always played well together. Maybe he wanted him back on the team because he knows Zach and DeMar won't give him the ball.
In this off-season they have signed a back up PG and a backup PF and that's it, everyone they could extend they extended seemingly in the total absence of any known competition for their services. They're bringing the band back together except it's an awful Credence Clearwater Revival cover band that plays a 20 minute version of "Proud Mary" in the lounge of a Red Roof Inn in Topeka. And to this they added the best triangle player on the circuit.
Hands up if you watched this team last year and said, man, if we only had another backup PG and PF, we'd be R I G H T T H E R E . . .
Doubling down on awfulness and poor roster construction is just incredible.
B-but but we added a backup point guard and went 14 and 9 when all the other teams were either tanking or resting their players for the playoffs!! Wait, now that I say that out loud, maybe Pat Bev wasn't the magic bullet he was sold to us as...
Maybe it's my Illini roots but I'm an Ayo fan. I'm on the record (comment above) saying he shouldn't be a starter at PG. He reminds me most of Caruso, and that's a good thing (though having two Caruso's may not be great on a single roster). He knows how to play, works hard, understands defense, has good size.
I'm surprised he drew no interest -- to me he's a Heat-style G-league/second round player, very useful in the right role and on the right team.
Finally, with the cap continually rising, this is ALMOST as little as you can pay someone who isn't a vet minimum or two-way rookie. In three years Ayo at $7 million will look great, IMO.
(All of this not to excuse other AK moves and non-moves; I just like Ayo) :)
I'm in the same boat as MikeDC. I really like Ayo too, and I'm happy he got his bag. I just hate that the Bulls paid him that.
It's not that his contract won't seem bad in a couple years, because you are certainly right about that. It's that he doesn't make sense on this team. A fifth guard should be getting the minimum or very slightly over it. Since it doesn't sound like there was much interest in Ayo, why give him so much? It just doesn't make sense, and that's what annoys me. None of my frustration is with Ayo.
A guy that got massively outplayed by a 34 year old Patrick Beverley got 4x Beverley's salary for 3x as many years. He's younger, sure, but even as a hardworking young man he was massively outplayed by a 34 year old Patrick Beverley!
I've said this before, we might disagree on what a certain player might be but we all know what a 34 year old Patrick Beverley was. Not great. He looked like Chris Paul compared to Ayo & Co.
It's hilarious that the only guy they didn't run back this summer was both the cheapest and the most impactful player on the roster outside of the ones paid like stars.
But merits of Ayo aside, this was awful, F- see me after class roster management. Like MikeDC says, they just "locked up" the 11th man on the roster. Why.
Depending on who starts, something between $37 million and $40 million is now committed to back up guards, all of whom are flawed and who range from having no jump shot to no knees. They've now had 2.5 years to find a replacement for the kneeless guy and flung tons of contracts at guys who can't even stand out in this mess of a guard corps.
I'm trying to think of the circumstances in which this a "good contract" and I'm thinking maybe the last season is a team option, and also Ayo transforms into a very skilled werewolf when he gets angry. Other than that I got nothing. They just "locked up" the worst starting PG in the league last year, and did so against no identifiable competition, and did so for 3 years, and did so despite Ayo & the Bulls being truly the worst possible fit between player and team of anyone on the roster or perhaps even anyone in the NBA.
It's the fit that's the problem. Ayo's a hard worker and if he could just get to 37% or higher on decent volume from three, he'd absolutely be worth that money. He's already an excellent defender after only two years in the league.
HE JUST DOESN'T FIT. Unless the Bulls have multiple injuries to guards in front of him in the rotation, I don't see how he gets regular minutes. You don't pay a guy who's barely going to play $7 million a year.
I think what Ayo does is probably the most easily and cheaply replaceable role on an NBA team. It's a very specific Venn diagram of skills because nobody WANTS a guy like this. He's a PG-sized player that can defend but not shoot. He doesn't have refined PG skills — if he did he should have been able to do at least half of what Lonzo did for the Bulls, but in reality it was about half of that half.
It's possible he learns to shoot, it's more likely to happen to him than a 30 year old with a similar profile, but that's true of all these guys. Kris Dunn shot the fuck out of the ball with Utah last year. I'm very glad we didn't give him Ayo Money while he figured it out. The Bulls just paid Ayo slightly more than Jevon Carter, who is 28 and can shoot and probably has similar PG-level skills, if not better and in every conceivable scenario will never fall behind Ayo in the rotation on merit or playability or anything else other than health.
But fit or flaws aside, the idea is that a team should overpay in free agency, for proven players, not to retain your own deeply flawed players from a deeply flawed roster. Garnisovas is wasting my time as a fan in ways that GarPax never even tried. It's impressive in a sick, perverted way!
If the third year is a player option (as the Bulls like to do) then this is a terrible contract. If a team option, then it's better but still not great. In a year, $7M won't look so bad, although I'm not sure we'll see it as "good." I think his ultimate destiny is being included in a trade (note to AKME: please do).
I love that all of the speculation was Ayo would get an offer below the QO, likely close to the minimum, and then the Bulls go out there and hand him $21 million. Sorry, Jerry, I'm not paying for League Pass this year.
That's exactly what AK thought too! And then Marc Eversley was like "Bro, we're not stuck at just $5 million. What if we give him $21 million instead?"
Pleased Ayo will be back. As much AK loses on the margins and probably did so here (that's a big number!) , it would have been penny wise but pound foolish to let him walk after trying to squeeze him
This isn't nearly the scope of the disastrous Vuc overpay IMO
If looking at this objectively, AK should be fired. So I'd rather have Ayo and let the next GM figure it out than have AK all of a sudden learn how the market works and replace Ayo with a rookie minimum
On this team, pushing for wins and not rebuilding, I think Ayo plays. A rookie minimum or Freeman-Liberty does not. I like Moneyball quotes: Ayo can play, and we need people who can play.
I take the Ayo signing to mean that when the starters are sitting either Ayo or Caruso will nominally play the 3 (or in other words a 3 guard lineup). Those three would all kinda be interchangeable since none of them is super small. It's not crazy, I would have liked to see them sign a 4/5 type to get little more beef in the 2nd unit. I'd expect this to be the top 10.
I like the Bulls a little more with the Carter, Craig, and Sonogo signings. A lot more with Woods on board, using that DPE slot.
Where do you see the Bulls trending now?
Starters: Carter, Zach, DeMar, Craig and Vooch.
Bench: Coby, AC, Pat, Wood, Drummond.
I think both the starting lineup and the bench would be better than last year, especially the bench. I think I'd actually enjoy watching that bench more than the starters. They'd probably still get knocked out of the first round, but I think they'd be more competitive in general and more fun.
It's funny how different our line-ups are. I guess it tells you about the state of the team right now. I think it's going to be Starters: Coby, Zach, DeMar, P-Will, Vuc and Bench: Carter, Caruso, Craig, Drummond as the main 4 used.
Maybe I should have clarified. I think your lineup is what we'll actually see. My lineup is what I'd prefer to see.
I think (or at least hope) that Coby and Pat are better than Carter and Craig. The problem is they're both guys that need the ball in their hands to be at their best, especially Pat. So starting them with the "big 3" isn't going to utilize them fully because they'll barely get the ball.
Craig and Carter are both guys who have made careers for themselves by being the type of guys you can have on the court with ball-dominant stars because they know how to impact the game in other ways. So even though I don't think they're as good as Coby and Pat, I think they'd fit in with the "big 3" better and I think Coby and Pat would have more of an impact off the bench. Plus, I'd like to see Pat play some SF this year, and the only way he's doing that is off the bench.
KC Johnson had a recent article that provided that nice cold bucket of water on all this sensible Christian Woods talk. Bulls aren't going to go into tax for woods and woods wont accept less than the bulls doe (for the Bulls at least) so there we are.
Slightly off topic, but I'm so sick of the "Vooch isn't a bad defender. They had the fifth best defense last year" talking point. Vooch isn't such a bad defender that it's impossible to have a good defense with him on the team. He's bad enough, though, that you have to make sacrifices elsewhere to make up for his bad defense.
So are Lavine and DeMar, obviously. But they're good enough on offense to make up for that. Vooch isn't. He's decent offensively but not so much so that he makes up for what he lacks defensively. This team had to make sacrifices offensively to be a good defensive team. They never went for offensive rebounds so that they could get back on defense, for instance.
Ultimately having three bad defenders as your best players was never going to work out. Overpaying two of them just makes it that much worse. I'm afraid for next summer, because I have a feeling AK's going to give DeMar a big, fat extension...
Just so everyone (Jilm) knows, I'll allow this post as more Vuc discussion :-)
You nailed it. Which is why the Vooch trade was so Ill-conceived from the beginning.
I'll actually push back on that a little bit. Yes, AK absolutely overpaid for Vooch. There's no denying that. However, assuming he didn't know he'd be signing DeMar the following offseason, I actually think the Vooch and Zach pairing was a pretty good idea.
We also know AK was trying to get Lonzo at that deadline too, so it's clear he was trying to add Vooch as a secondary scorer to Zach and then Lonzo as a primary ball handler and defensive ball stopper.
I think the big mistake, if you can even call it that, was signing DeMar. The DeMar signing in a vacuum isn't bad. He's clearly the Bulls best player, so it's hard to say it was bad. The problem with that signing was that DeMar's game is basically the complete opposite of what it seemed like AK was trying to build.
I think the opportunity to potentially sign DeMar sort of manifested out of nowhere and it was too good for AK to pass up. He hoped that adding DeMar's abilities would make up for the fact that he really didn't fit on the team.
Anyway, that signing, in my opinion, is what really screwed over Vooch. Vooch needs the ball in his hands to be at his best, and that's just hard to do when there are two better scorers on the team. Also, the Bulls could get away with starting two bad defenders, but it's much harder to get away with starting three bad defenders.
So yeah, I don't love Vooch on this team, but I also don't think a lot of it is his fault. I think DeMar was too good to pass up, but they needed to go into it knowing if those three didn't work together, someone would need to go. Vooch is the worst of those three, so they probably should have traded him last offseason (or at the very latest, last trade deadline) when they realized it wasn't going to work out.
This is the proper take. You have two high-usage guys, one of whom is slow and plodding, and add a third who is also high-usage and is also slow and methodical and you get the results you see on the court now.
Vooch is good but not good enough to be the second option. His three-point shooting is decent for a big but not good enough to be a floor stretcher/catch-and-shoot guy when Zach isn't open and Demar dumps the ball off after 22 seconds of ISO work.
Acne was definitely scheming to sign Debo. Vuc played with him at USC. Acne even said the Vuc signing was a success because it helped them get D. Vuc was his first move and he certainly had some possibilities laid out beyond it.
I guess I just wonder how much of that was planned. Or was it just that all of a sudden the Lakers weren't as interested in DeMar as everyone had thought and AK called Vooch into his office and was like "You played ball with DeMar in college, right? Give him a call and put him on speakerphone. I'll offer him a pile of cash and tell him he can lead the team."
Not saying you're wrong, but this could have all been a happy accident that AK tried to spin as him having some master plan. So far AK hasn't seemed like much of a planner, which makes me kind of doubt he had some master plan to combine three B/C-tier stars who can't defend.
Javonte Green played for the Montenegrin national team with Vuc (not sure how). Debo and Javonte were moves were to get on Vuc’s good side. Definitely premeditated.
this is facts
The DDR as the problem take is refreshing, and reflects my PoV as well. Good guy, incredible hard-shot maker. Seems for some reason reluctant to fit into a team framework. I truly wonder if had zero value -- two time all-star, big-time scorer, beloved figure. Last trade deadline was the best time, now was second best, beyond this will be tough, an extension will bury the Bulls (and me) (and hopefully AK if that happens).
Yeah, you never hear that at all.
That's a super revisionist take.
Throw DeMar out of it, and just look at the Vuc trade. We traded Carter and two high picks for a guy who was, in many ways, inferior to a guy (Thad) we already had on the roster. We didn't get any better. And it led directly to the departure of Lauri, who's also a better player.
He's a non-defending, jump-shooting center. Essentially, this generation's Carlos Boozer.
Signing DeMar just covered up what a train wreck the Vuc trade was for a little while.
It's not a revisionist take though. First, I said that the Bulls gave up way too much in that trade, so we absolutely agree there.
Second, I didn't say it was a good trade and the only reason it didn't work out was because of DeMar. I said "it was a pretty good idea". Sure, maybe I should have clarified that more. It was a good idea on paper. Vooch looked like a monster in Orlando and adding him and Lonzo to this Bulls team seemed like a big step forward on paper.
As we all know, it certainly wasn't. I'm just saying that I think I get what AK was at least going for, even if he totally botched it.
Almost everything sounds like a good idea when there's no price attached.
one of the few reasons the Bulls are able to put up their "first place in January that one year" banner is because DeMar's MVP level play. Lonzo was also part of that 'vision' but so was DeMar.
They don't sign him, and Vuc is unencumbered (but not nearly as good an offensive player as DDR), they are a .500 team then probably miss the playoffs after Lonzo got hurt
Totally agree with you. Getting DeMar was the right move. I'm just saying DeMar was always going to limit Vooch. Is that a bad thing? Obviously not. But when it became clear Vooch doesn't do much for this team the way it is currently constructed (with DeMar), AKME should have moved him. He didn't and that's on him.
Vooch at this point is Carlos Boozer: good enough on offense for people who like him to say "he's a double-double machine!", but bad enough on defense to negate his double-double machine-ness in the starting lineup.
Yep, perfect comparison.
I disagree. His issue is he is not that good of an offensive player. He doesnt play with force or efficiency. And ultimately, despite his various high-level skills, what makes him an average offensive center at best is that he just isnt a good enough shooter. And putting the ball in his hands more would only further hurt the offense by clogging it up with inefficient post ups, mid range jumpers, and scant FTs and OREBS.
I think I'm confused. The entire point of my comment above is that he's not a good enough offensive player to make up for his bad defense. I never said he should get more touches, so I think we're in agreement.
Yeah, I was kind of replying to your comments in aggregate. You called Orlando Vooch "a monster". And suggested pairing him with just Zach, which would have put the ball in his hands a lot, would have worked. My comment is "no, it would not have. because Vooch in any context is just not a very good offensive center."
Hmm I guess I'm not sure if I wasn't clear enough in that comment or if you're just choosing to see what you want. I didn't call Vooch a monster in Orlando. I said he looked like a monster. As in how good he looked in Orlando was deceiving because he wasn't actually as good as he looked.
I also didn't say pairing him with Zach because it would allow the ball to be in his hands more would have worked. I said pairing him with Zach (or without DeMar if that's how you'd like to look at it) made more sense because he needs the ball in his hands to be at his best. Vooch being "at his best" doesn't mean he's a top 25 player in the league. It just means that's how he's most effective, even if that's a middle of the league center.
To sum up that entire comment you're referencing, since apparently it's worded poorly, my point was to say that Vooch would be better (not actually great, but better than what we've gotten) if DeMar weren't on this team. As I've stated multiple times in this thread, Vooch is not better than DeMar and AK obviously made the right move to sacrifice some of Vooch's effectiveness in return for DeMar.
What’s the word on Onuralp Bitim?
I’d like to sign T. Watford and use the DPE on Royce O’Neal
Carter - Lavine - DeRozen - Williams - Vuc
Caruso - Coby - O’Neal - Craig - Watford(Billy D played DJJ at C. Watford is 6’8 with a 7’2.5 wingspan)
Lonzo - Terry - Phillips - Drummond
There was never anything real on Onuralp Bitim, so there's nothing to update
Literally minutes after I said this now he's signed
So now please write more about how unlikely it is that Dame will force his way to the Bulls. Just in case.
I had also heard some rumors that Pat was going to finally become Kawhi this season but without the injury issues. I haven't haven't heard anything on that in a while. Any updates, yfbb??
Kinda pathetic that this was out for 2 weeks and nobody local could follow up, then hours after Woj reports it KC tweets 'can confirm'
While both are Turkeys, Turkish b-ball media > Chicago’s. I wonder how Chicago’s prisons compare…
The word is Fruitti
What are people's general thoughts on what the starting lineup should be? Personally, I think Coby and Pat should come off the bench where they can run the second unit. Carter and Craig have made their names as guys who play well without ball in their hands. That's what the starting unit needs with how much the ball with be in the "big 3's" hands.
If the Bulls somehow managed to get their hands on Christian Wood (highly unlikely), I think they'd have a pretty fun, albeit still very flawed, 10 man rotation. AKME haven't moved the needle much this offseason, but I do think this team should be more cohesive than last year.
Agree 100% on the lineups. For a couple of reasons. Bulls aren't good enough to run a top 8, I'd rather have them think about two separate and balanced five man squads. And that will require PW and Coby to be strong bench scorers getting a lot of touches.
My other take is this: losing Lonzo killed this team, but so did placing both PW and Ayo in the starting lineup. They weren't ready and it's crazy AK thought they could help this otherwise win-now team.
Finally, I like Craig and Carter, but losing Jevonte and DJJ offsets them somewhat. I thought the Bulls had pretty decent depth, and a pretty decent top. But putting PW and Ayo in prime roles screwed up the total story -- even if I like them both they needed to be in a proper role.
Getting Christian Wood would kill any team cohesion gains we've made so far, unless Andre can give some epic "you're fumbling your bag just like I did" speech that gets nominated for an Oscar.
I guess it doesn't matter anyway. Now that we gave Ayo most of the remainder of our money under the luxury tax, whoever gets that last roster spot will absolutely be on a vet minimum.
Looking around the league, what is going on with the Jaylen Brown contract and the Harden/Dame trades? I had the sense that free agency was waiting on those things. Is the season going to start with them unresolved?
Maybe training camp. I could see how Portland is in zero rush to trade Lillard.
C. Wood doesn’t really bother me since he’s just like Vuc we already know how that is.
The Bulls are not using the DPE and Christian Wood is not coming here. The talk of that Turkish player seems to have just been smoke. So this is the roster.
Ayo is probably like the 9th guy on a good team so whether or not he comes back makes no real difference. That said, I'd prefer the Bulls keep him if only to retain an asset. Maybe the Bulls could package Ayo and Dalen (who stinks) in an "all upside" trade to a team that doesn't watch League Pass.
Comments re Turkish guy not aging well.
LOL apologies that Turkish guy is real!
Woj:
"Turkish G/F Onurlap Bitim has agreed on a two-way contract with the Chicago Bulls, sources tell ESPN. Bitim, 24, was a second-team EuroCup player for Bursaspor in Turkey."
So do we think this is going to go the way of Felicio or Simonovic?
Turkish Zipser
I mean, I'd say he was probably the "best" of those three options. If only because he didn't cost the Bulls $32 million like Felicio and he at least made it onto the court unlike Marko.
On-ur-lap.. that typo makes it sound like we're going after Harden next.
that was a thinker, delayed like
It's actually "Onuralp"
That was the typo I referred to if that wasn't clear
lol, definitely missed that. I'm tired. 😂
Update post with Bitim signing.
it doesn't look like he was part of any pre-draft assessment, so no measurements. He's "listed" at 6'6"
We need to sign Christian Wood, if only to see the unstoppable offensive/stops no one defense lineup of Zach/Coby/Debo/Wood/Vuc. They could run-and-gun Loyola Marymount style. Also, where is Wood going to get signed at beyond minimum? There are not many options left. I think we can use the $4.5M biannual and be doubling his salary vs just about anyone else.
several teams have BiAnnual to use beyond the Bulls
I don't have a comprehensive list but between Room Exception and ntMLE, or even TPE (if Dallas did sign/trade), I think a lot of teams have options
those over the 2nd apron (Suns, Clippers, Warriors) can't sign him. And interestingly the Lakers, who've had rumored interest, only have the minimum.
It's as senseless as anything else Garnisovas has done, which makes me think: there's a chance!
Vucevic and Wood are the same player. Vucevic rebounds (or collects uncontested rebounds) better, Wood blocks marginally more shots but per 36 they have nearly identical strengths and weaknesses. Some advanced stats on defense show Wood better, others show Vucevic better, but we all know they're both terrible. Wood will shoot a little better from the 3, Vucevic a little better from the line. But more or less they have identical strengths and weaknesses.
The difference is one is trying to find anything above the minimum and is still in his 20s and the other we're deluding ourselves is "tradeable" at probably 3x to 4x the salary and 3 more years on his contract on the day he signed it. On many teams Vucevic would have been the same as Wood last year, including the Mavs post-Kyrie trade.
So yeah, it makes no sense and thus total sense that they'll get him, leave him in cobwebs (NO BILLY FAULT here, I mean what is even the point in giving him minutes when he's the same as the starter?) and then trade him for, idk, another Joffrey Lauvergne that will play 10 games as an "intriguing player" and then quietly sign to play in China at this time next year.
God, this is more depressing than the overtime I just signed up for that's going to take up my entire Friday night...
At least one of them pays time and a half?
If they hadn't given Drummond a player option they could have convinced DJJ to stay as backup 4/5 and/or signed someone a little more interesting like Wood. Drummond tied their hands at the center spot, and not in a good way.
idk - djj had a player option that he said he was going to pick up and then didn't. And hasn't signed anywhere else afaik. Unless you think the bulls would offer more if drummond weren't around? Not convinced about that.
Yes, I know both Drummond's and Jone's situations. I wouldn't have given Drummond a player option. And I personally would have worked to keep DJJ (I realize he chose to leave, seemed more about playing opportunity than money) and played him at the backup 4 and back-up small-ball 5. IMO, they tied their own hands and undervalued DJJ. They tie their own hands a lot and mis-value players constantly, IMO.
Yeah but in terms of playing time, it's not like Drummond was getting a ton either. I'm not saying you're wrong in terms of prioritization, but these two didn't seem like they were direct competition. Of course, the whole roster construction is bizarre.
I think that's where things get tough. The Bulls may be able to offer him more than most other teams, but I'm pretty sure he'd be coming in as a bench player. Would he rather come off the bench for a terrible Bulls franchise that no one pays attention to for $4.5 million or would he rather have a fairly significant role at the vet minimum on the uber-popular Lakers team that should at least make some noise in the playoffs?
To me he accepts the Bulls offer (pretending there is one obviously) if he knows he's going to be a vet minimum player the rest of his career. If he thinks he can have a bounce back year of sorts next year, he should take the vet minimum and play on a team that's actually kind of good where he'll have lots of eyeballs on him. Then he may be in a position to collect a larger, longer-term payday next summer.
Stop believing "we can fix him" with Christian Wood; seven franchises have tried that in just six seasons, including teams starved for talent. He's like the Bizarro Ish Smith - rather than playing on every team because of how useful he is, Wood will be on every team because he's an empty stats player AND terrible in the locker room.
I read there are like 6 teams with too many guaranteed contracts, so maybe there is a useful cut player available soon? Another reason why the market has slowed. Perhaps Garuba or Bertans? Wood is the biggest difference maker still available - much bigger than redundant Ayo.
Ok sorry for over-posting, but couldn’t we rescind Ayo’s offer, sign Liberty to a min, offer wood $8M, resulting in 14 players signed and still being under the cap???
yes, except the part about Ayo's QO. It can't be rescinded anymore without his permission.
lol so do we just delete this and start over?
Ayo signs for 3 years/$21 million
What the actual fuck? Don't get me wrong, I like Ayo. He just doesn't fit on this team as currently constructed and he's certainly not worth $7 million a year...
What's with AK overpaying guys who have no other interested parties? Did Vooch share whatever blackmail he has on AK with Ayo or something? He and Ayo have always played well together. Maybe he wanted him back on the team because he knows Zach and DeMar won't give him the ball.
In this off-season they have signed a back up PG and a backup PF and that's it, everyone they could extend they extended seemingly in the total absence of any known competition for their services. They're bringing the band back together except it's an awful Credence Clearwater Revival cover band that plays a 20 minute version of "Proud Mary" in the lounge of a Red Roof Inn in Topeka. And to this they added the best triangle player on the circuit.
Hands up if you watched this team last year and said, man, if we only had another backup PG and PF, we'd be R I G H T T H E R E . . .
Doubling down on awfulness and poor roster construction is just incredible.
B-but but we added a backup point guard and went 14 and 9 when all the other teams were either tanking or resting their players for the playoffs!! Wait, now that I say that out loud, maybe Pat Bev wasn't the magic bullet he was sold to us as...
Maybe it's my Illini roots but I'm an Ayo fan. I'm on the record (comment above) saying he shouldn't be a starter at PG. He reminds me most of Caruso, and that's a good thing (though having two Caruso's may not be great on a single roster). He knows how to play, works hard, understands defense, has good size.
I'm surprised he drew no interest -- to me he's a Heat-style G-league/second round player, very useful in the right role and on the right team.
Finally, with the cap continually rising, this is ALMOST as little as you can pay someone who isn't a vet minimum or two-way rookie. In three years Ayo at $7 million will look great, IMO.
(All of this not to excuse other AK moves and non-moves; I just like Ayo) :)
As a fan of Ayo, I'm happy he got paid.
As a Bulls fan, I'm deeply unsatisfied.
I'm in the same boat as MikeDC. I really like Ayo too, and I'm happy he got his bag. I just hate that the Bulls paid him that.
It's not that his contract won't seem bad in a couple years, because you are certainly right about that. It's that he doesn't make sense on this team. A fifth guard should be getting the minimum or very slightly over it. Since it doesn't sound like there was much interest in Ayo, why give him so much? It just doesn't make sense, and that's what annoys me. None of my frustration is with Ayo.
A guy that got massively outplayed by a 34 year old Patrick Beverley got 4x Beverley's salary for 3x as many years. He's younger, sure, but even as a hardworking young man he was massively outplayed by a 34 year old Patrick Beverley!
I've said this before, we might disagree on what a certain player might be but we all know what a 34 year old Patrick Beverley was. Not great. He looked like Chris Paul compared to Ayo & Co.
It's hilarious that the only guy they didn't run back this summer was both the cheapest and the most impactful player on the roster outside of the ones paid like stars.
But merits of Ayo aside, this was awful, F- see me after class roster management. Like MikeDC says, they just "locked up" the 11th man on the roster. Why.
Depending on who starts, something between $37 million and $40 million is now committed to back up guards, all of whom are flawed and who range from having no jump shot to no knees. They've now had 2.5 years to find a replacement for the kneeless guy and flung tons of contracts at guys who can't even stand out in this mess of a guard corps.
Ayo is an alright rotational guard but i'd rather just have JFL for the minimum
Was there any other team that even offered him a contract? Seems like they are bidding against themselves once again?
I'm trying to think of the circumstances in which this a "good contract" and I'm thinking maybe the last season is a team option, and also Ayo transforms into a very skilled werewolf when he gets angry. Other than that I got nothing. They just "locked up" the worst starting PG in the league last year, and did so against no identifiable competition, and did so for 3 years, and did so despite Ayo & the Bulls being truly the worst possible fit between player and team of anyone on the roster or perhaps even anyone in the NBA.
It's the fit that's the problem. Ayo's a hard worker and if he could just get to 37% or higher on decent volume from three, he'd absolutely be worth that money. He's already an excellent defender after only two years in the league.
HE JUST DOESN'T FIT. Unless the Bulls have multiple injuries to guards in front of him in the rotation, I don't see how he gets regular minutes. You don't pay a guy who's barely going to play $7 million a year.
I think what Ayo does is probably the most easily and cheaply replaceable role on an NBA team. It's a very specific Venn diagram of skills because nobody WANTS a guy like this. He's a PG-sized player that can defend but not shoot. He doesn't have refined PG skills — if he did he should have been able to do at least half of what Lonzo did for the Bulls, but in reality it was about half of that half.
It's possible he learns to shoot, it's more likely to happen to him than a 30 year old with a similar profile, but that's true of all these guys. Kris Dunn shot the fuck out of the ball with Utah last year. I'm very glad we didn't give him Ayo Money while he figured it out. The Bulls just paid Ayo slightly more than Jevon Carter, who is 28 and can shoot and probably has similar PG-level skills, if not better and in every conceivable scenario will never fall behind Ayo in the rotation on merit or playability or anything else other than health.
But fit or flaws aside, the idea is that a team should overpay in free agency, for proven players, not to retain your own deeply flawed players from a deeply flawed roster. Garnisovas is wasting my time as a fan in ways that GarPax never even tried. It's impressive in a sick, perverted way!
If the third year is a player option (as the Bulls like to do) then this is a terrible contract. If a team option, then it's better but still not great. In a year, $7M won't look so bad, although I'm not sure we'll see it as "good." I think his ultimate destiny is being included in a trade (note to AKME: please do).
I think this deal is tailored for a trade where the receiving team wants some with upside and on a reasonable deal moving forward...
cool what would the other team get?
I love that all of the speculation was Ayo would get an offer below the QO, likely close to the minimum, and then the Bulls go out there and hand him $21 million. Sorry, Jerry, I'm not paying for League Pass this year.
I saw his qualifying offer and said, wow, I can't believe we got trapped into having to pay him $5 million next year. Hahahahaha.
That's exactly what AK thought too! And then Marc Eversley was like "Bro, we're not stuck at just $5 million. What if we give him $21 million instead?"
And that's the kind of savvy that the gets Marc Eversley an unannounced extension.
Pleased Ayo will be back. As much AK loses on the margins and probably did so here (that's a big number!) , it would have been penny wise but pound foolish to let him walk after trying to squeeze him
This isn't nearly the scope of the disastrous Vuc overpay IMO
If looking at this objectively, AK should be fired. So I'd rather have Ayo and let the next GM figure it out than have AK all of a sudden learn how the market works and replace Ayo with a rookie minimum
On this team, pushing for wins and not rebuilding, I think Ayo plays. A rookie minimum or Freeman-Liberty does not. I like Moneyball quotes: Ayo can play, and we need people who can play.
he'll play if one of the many guards on this roster gets hurt
(so yes, he'll play)
And he'll be fine to good in THAT role. ILL-....
If this team was pushing for wins, Ayo is not even on the roster, and instead of Ayo, we add another capable big.
With him on the roster, how much does a 5th guard play? None usually.
Zach, Caruso, Coby, Carter are the clear 1-4.
If you think about playing him in general, there's really no situation where I'd sit DeMar, Pat or Craig just to play Ayo either.
So that makes him 8 men back in the rotation, and two rotational spots presumably go to centers. Which makes Ayo... the 11th man.
That's fucking whack. Just makes 0 sense at all.
I take the Ayo signing to mean that when the starters are sitting either Ayo or Caruso will nominally play the 3 (or in other words a 3 guard lineup). Those three would all kinda be interchangeable since none of them is super small. It's not crazy, I would have liked to see them sign a 4/5 type to get little more beef in the 2nd unit. I'd expect this to be the top 10.
Carter / Ayo
LaVine / Coby
DeMar / Caruso
PWill / Craig (either might start)
Vooch / Drummond
We need a backup PG. Ayo isn't it.
Vuc as point center #SimpleGame