This contract extension they gave to Lonzo was absolutely absurd in the first place, I'm just glad they got something for him. Playing 70 games over 3 seasons is just not acceptable, at least okoro is young and available.
Yeah, I never understood the whole "Lonzo is worth a 1st rounder" conversations at all. If you can't play basketball while getting paid to play basketball, there is really not much to say. Time to move on!
The second apron really makes available cap space a valuable commodity, and that a team that's going nowhere could gain draft capital by taking advantage of that. If the Bulls had a smart front office I'd say they should do what they can to shed salary and then start take advantage of this in 2026-27, but here they are with the perfect opportunity to get SOMETHING, even if it's just a future 2nd, and they fumble it again.
I used to joke that the Reinsdorfs view draft picks as liabilities rather than assets because there's a theoretical salary attached, but now I think that could actually be it. Why else would they allow AK to continue to continue to make the organization look so bad?
Even GarPax knew that picks have a ton of value. For all their faults, they moved off of mistakes before paying them. James Johnson, Thabo Sefolosha, Tyrus Thomas, all dealt before rookie contracts ended for firsts
AK can't even figure out that a second round pick would be better for the Reinsdorfs than $11M Isaac Okoro
Players like Okoro have value. It's a cheap $11M shot that he can become Aaron Nesmith. There are worse bets given his skill set. For a team still executing a mid-build (right or wrong) he has more value than a draft pick in the 20s. The fact that AK is a moron doesn't mean everything he does is moronic. (Unless he fails to dump Vuc yet again).
if the trade was Bulls accept Okoro into TPE and get a second round pick, it'd be still underwhelming - because of reasons stated in the post about how we seem to be accumulating 35-win team players - but I wouldn't trash it
Exactly. This front office is in place until they don't want the jobs anymore.
I'd be satisfied if this allows them to dump PWill somewhere, although he cannot have value for any of the GMs who watch NBA games, and AKME couldn't sell a cup of water in the desert.
We're paying like 105% of what the actual Aaron Nesmith costs (Really! look it up, Okoro actually is guaranteed more money!) for the like 5% chance he "becomes Aaron Nesmith".
Truly such arguments are only made on the internet and at the Berto Center.
"for the Bulls...they get a little younger, Okoro seems to have the same year every year, where he makes some progress in the regular season - he's a great defender, transition player, gets to 40% on corner threes and a little more artful attacking closeouts - gets to the playoffs and pfffffft can't play him. Also seems like a vote of 'no confidence' in the Dalen Terry, Julian Phillips, Patrick Williams pu pu platter of wings they've drafted. Go Bulls."
Sometimes I just wish someone like Lowe would just tee up on the bulls and humiliate them. But they are somehow beneath his consideration and beneath contempt, which is far worse. And definitely far less satisfying for us.
AK’s two modes are that he either asks for too much and doesn’t attempt to budge (which is why Vuc is still here) or he doesn’t ask for as much as he could.
I think he just legitimately doesn’t negotiate. He makes his offer and/or hears the other team’s offer and if there’s not immediate agreement, he hangs up the phone.
I have no problem with acquiring Okoro. He’s a solid role player who will be productive on defense. He’s a step up from Terry and due to his age, he could still get better.
But AK, you can ask for more in addition to Okoro! The Cavs are the ones who are financially strained. You have the leverage!
Okoro is who he is, he aint getting any better...he is an ok rotational wing, can play him 20 minutes in the regular season and not get killed but will be collecting splinters in the playoffs. You can't not get a pick too especially when CLE desperately needed to drop his salary
This is a not a hugely exciting deal. But I like the odds of Okoro improving much better than the chance that Lonzo stays healthy. I think that's worth the $1.5 million extra salary we took on.
And that being said, I hope I'm wrong and Ball can be a big contributor to the Cavs in the playoffs.
one of the biggest 'value' variables in the NBA is simply finding a sucker. It's why this isn't a perfectly elastic or logical market, it just takes one dumbass
So what I'm saying is AK will be very surprised if he shops Patrick Williams. Even Charlotte has new ownership and seems to know what they're doing. I guess the Pelicans?
As Billy Donovan gains more and more power and influence in the organization, I keep wondering what he thinks of AKME's moves. There's no way he can be excited at getting Okoro, right? Or is he happy because he didn't want to be part of a full rebuild and now he has an excuse to not play and develop younger players?
How was Lonzo to coach? A player that was the highest IQ player on the floor that could only play 20 minutes and couldn't play back to backs. Maybe Donovan would rather have players that don't come with playing time stipulations.
Just looking at Okoro as a player fit for Donovan, he does make sense as a starting SF on offense and PG defender (hiding Giddey)
But wasn't Ayo already good in that role? And had more ball handling skills than Okoro? I'd say logically Ayo is gone but Bulls likely can't get value in a trade and will instead extend him.
The real odd man out is Dalen Terry, who Donovan never wanted to play but he was very correct in that. He's a example of how the Bulls get 'internal development' wrong, Terry is too old and too expensive already to be 14th man, that should go to fringe minimum guys
Ayo was the Bulls worst non-garbage time player in terms of +/- on/off. Okoro was the Cavs best player in terms of on/off.
Ayo wasn't good in that role because he wasn't good last year. He's the type of player that looks good, makes great plays, and has a bad plus/minus every year.
Yes it is curious that Ayo had such terrible on/off numbers when in theory he's a 'beyond the boxscore' kind of player. That can be a noisy stat though obviously. And can't we just blame Zach LaVine?
I'm here because of Billy. I'm a big Gator fan and follow all our guys in the pros.
Billy came to the pros to avoid player management. He was excellent at recruiting and developing players, but gameday X's and O's is his love. He wanted to coach players who were already largely developed and leave the rest to others. I don't have any specific insight on his leaving OKC, but the idea that he didn't want to intentionally tank isn't out of line with his history.
I'd actually gotten concerned that he'd lost his drive, since he's been going along with AKME's idiocy. Him taking over player development is a good thing on that front. I think it says he's gotten tired enough of AKME's incompetence that he's willing to take on more of what he tried to get away from, just to put a better product on the court. He is genuinely good at player development and I suspect we'll see more improvement from the players overall than we have in a while (with the possible exception of what we were beginning to see under Patton).
I can see it if I squint. Somebody with more sales skills than AKME would have to convince Beal he could be the next Jordan. But maybe he's already convinced himself. He did say he is open to going to an exceptional organization. We have to be on that short list, right?
The negotiations are probably almost completed. I am guessing that Suns, now with Brooks and Green, are looking to get off Allen's contract, and we could take him into our trade exception.
Beal, Maluach and Fleming for Williams, Okoro and expirings, maybe Collins and Carter, along with any picks the Suns might have left. (I think one at least?)
I just don't see how the Suns make it worth the Bulls while to vaporize $30M in 2026 cap room (difference between Beal and PWill), especially because the Bulls don't value first round picks. They don't have 'young players with experience' to offer
With the way the league is going now, I think the $30M in cap room is not super useful.
1. Generally, actual good players re-sign with their own teams or do trades.
2. The Bulls are way far down the list of teams anyone wants to go to.
3. I don't believe anything from the Bulls. They're fucking cheap. Every year they whisper about having some level of interest in a guy (this year it's Kuminga) and then they shut up and trade for Isaac Okoro the moment they realize he's going to cost a bunch of money because other teams are interested too.
The best case of them using their cap money is probably taking on a guy like Beale and getting picks, but like you said, they don't value picks. But they sure as shit ain't gonna do anything else useful with that cap space.
The AKME Bulls act like there's a superstar already on the team and they need to carefully build around them. Good job! You successfully built a roster around Victor Wembanyama by passing up every chance of being in a position to get a Victor Wembanyama.
It's like building a restaurant around appetizers and gaslighting the customers that there's an entree in there somewhere.
Interesting thought exercise is who the Bulls will 'target' in a Vuc trade. Someone who makes a bit but not too much, is old but not too old, and whose current team knows isn't good enough but good enough for a 35 win East team
Nic Claxton is who I would target. A three-team with the Celtics that sends Simons to the Nets makes sense for everyone. Nets get a solid expiring player they could flip if they wanted or maybe even keep as a building block. Celtics get a center they need and take another bite out of their payroll. Bulls get an athletic, defense-oriented big on a declining contract.
Gives the Bulls three flavors of bigs, which would allow some interesting lineup flexibility. I don't think Claxton is THE GUY, but I'd like it in the short/medium-term.
Kuminga and Podz will both end up better than Coby. They are both better now than Coby was at 22. And we aren't going to re-sign Coby anyway. Haha about Post.
Can't wait for the Josh Giddey contract to be 'termed tradeable' and then be told that we're idiots for expecting to get value out of it in the future.
This contract extension they gave to Lonzo was absolutely absurd in the first place, I'm just glad they got something for him. Playing 70 games over 3 seasons is just not acceptable, at least okoro is young and available.
Too funny to read KC Johnson say 'termed tradeable'
Yes, termed by you!
Yeah, I never understood the whole "Lonzo is worth a 1st rounder" conversations at all. If you can't play basketball while getting paid to play basketball, there is really not much to say. Time to move on!
The best ability is basketbility.
The second apron really makes available cap space a valuable commodity, and that a team that's going nowhere could gain draft capital by taking advantage of that. If the Bulls had a smart front office I'd say they should do what they can to shed salary and then start take advantage of this in 2026-27, but here they are with the perfect opportunity to get SOMETHING, even if it's just a future 2nd, and they fumble it again.
I used to joke that the Reinsdorfs view draft picks as liabilities rather than assets because there's a theoretical salary attached, but now I think that could actually be it. Why else would they allow AK to continue to continue to make the organization look so bad?
Even GarPax knew that picks have a ton of value. For all their faults, they moved off of mistakes before paying them. James Johnson, Thabo Sefolosha, Tyrus Thomas, all dealt before rookie contracts ended for firsts
AK can't even figure out that a second round pick would be better for the Reinsdorfs than $11M Isaac Okoro
that's the one thing i never knocked Pax for....he was willing to recognize a mistake and get an actual, decent asset back
Players like Okoro have value. It's a cheap $11M shot that he can become Aaron Nesmith. There are worse bets given his skill set. For a team still executing a mid-build (right or wrong) he has more value than a draft pick in the 20s. The fact that AK is a moron doesn't mean everything he does is moronic. (Unless he fails to dump Vuc yet again).
When you're in the second apron, that contract is not value but a huge albatross you have to pay to get off of
if the trade was Bulls accept Okoro into TPE and get a second round pick, it'd be still underwhelming - because of reasons stated in the post about how we seem to be accumulating 35-win team players - but I wouldn't trash it
I’d argue a mid-20s pick is more valuable because it might be a player used for the next front office.
There won't be a new front office until AKME retires of their own volition.
Exactly. This front office is in place until they don't want the jobs anymore.
I'd be satisfied if this allows them to dump PWill somewhere, although he cannot have value for any of the GMs who watch NBA games, and AKME couldn't sell a cup of water in the desert.
What does one have to do with the other? If anything all the more reason to get draft picks, bc they would be needed to get a team to take PWill
Maybe Okoro can be to the Bulls what Dort is to OKC. But helps to play alongside SGA. Think the trade is good.
He was just playing alongside Mitchell and Garland
Good point. Still like the trade. Not giving up much and not an expensive contract.
Rather have the pick, you could use the pick to try and get off a shitty contract(PWill)
We're paying like 105% of what the actual Aaron Nesmith costs (Really! look it up, Okoro actually is guaranteed more money!) for the like 5% chance he "becomes Aaron Nesmith".
Truly such arguments are only made on the internet and at the Berto Center.
Zach Lowe:
"for the Bulls...they get a little younger, Okoro seems to have the same year every year, where he makes some progress in the regular season - he's a great defender, transition player, gets to 40% on corner threes and a little more artful attacking closeouts - gets to the playoffs and pfffffft can't play him. Also seems like a vote of 'no confidence' in the Dalen Terry, Julian Phillips, Patrick Williams pu pu platter of wings they've drafted. Go Bulls."
Seems like a good summary, but I think AK calling the other 29 GMs to say he wants to get off PWill's contract was already a sign of no-confidence.
Agreed. Can't imagine that any of the other 29 teams want PWill and his contract. Somehow PWill has to prove his value.
Sometimes I just wish someone like Lowe would just tee up on the bulls and humiliate them. But they are somehow beneath his consideration and beneath contempt, which is far worse. And definitely far less satisfying for us.
He has in the past, but it's like every 20 months and the interim time they are too irrelevant
AK’s two modes are that he either asks for too much and doesn’t attempt to budge (which is why Vuc is still here) or he doesn’t ask for as much as he could.
I think he just legitimately doesn’t negotiate. He makes his offer and/or hears the other team’s offer and if there’s not immediate agreement, he hangs up the phone.
I have no problem with acquiring Okoro. He’s a solid role player who will be productive on defense. He’s a step up from Terry and due to his age, he could still get better.
But AK, you can ask for more in addition to Okoro! The Cavs are the ones who are financially strained. You have the leverage!
Okoro is who he is, he aint getting any better...he is an ok rotational wing, can play him 20 minutes in the regular season and not get killed but will be collecting splinters in the playoffs. You can't not get a pick too especially when CLE desperately needed to drop his salary
This is a not a hugely exciting deal. But I like the odds of Okoro improving much better than the chance that Lonzo stays healthy. I think that's worth the $1.5 million extra salary we took on.
And that being said, I hope I'm wrong and Ball can be a big contributor to the Cavs in the playoffs.
one of the biggest 'value' variables in the NBA is simply finding a sucker. It's why this isn't a perfectly elastic or logical market, it just takes one dumbass
So what I'm saying is AK will be very surprised if he shops Patrick Williams. Even Charlotte has new ownership and seems to know what they're doing. I guess the Pelicans?
There's always the Kings...
After following the Bulls since the mid 80's I truly think I need to just give up on them and start to follow another team.
We had the Rose years but apart from that, this team provides no hope nor joy to anyone apart from Jerry's wallet.
I'm thinking about buying leaguepass to watch the Spurs this year. They have too many guards who can't shoot but at least they're fun to watch.
As Billy Donovan gains more and more power and influence in the organization, I keep wondering what he thinks of AKME's moves. There's no way he can be excited at getting Okoro, right? Or is he happy because he didn't want to be part of a full rebuild and now he has an excuse to not play and develop younger players?
How was Lonzo to coach? A player that was the highest IQ player on the floor that could only play 20 minutes and couldn't play back to backs. Maybe Donovan would rather have players that don't come with playing time stipulations.
Billy does like players who can coach themselves on the floor
Just looking at Okoro as a player fit for Donovan, he does make sense as a starting SF on offense and PG defender (hiding Giddey)
But wasn't Ayo already good in that role? And had more ball handling skills than Okoro? I'd say logically Ayo is gone but Bulls likely can't get value in a trade and will instead extend him.
The real odd man out is Dalen Terry, who Donovan never wanted to play but he was very correct in that. He's a example of how the Bulls get 'internal development' wrong, Terry is too old and too expensive already to be 14th man, that should go to fringe minimum guys
Ayo was the Bulls worst non-garbage time player in terms of +/- on/off. Okoro was the Cavs best player in terms of on/off.
Ayo wasn't good in that role because he wasn't good last year. He's the type of player that looks good, makes great plays, and has a bad plus/minus every year.
Yes it is curious that Ayo had such terrible on/off numbers when in theory he's a 'beyond the boxscore' kind of player. That can be a noisy stat though obviously. And can't we just blame Zach LaVine?
I'm here because of Billy. I'm a big Gator fan and follow all our guys in the pros.
Billy came to the pros to avoid player management. He was excellent at recruiting and developing players, but gameday X's and O's is his love. He wanted to coach players who were already largely developed and leave the rest to others. I don't have any specific insight on his leaving OKC, but the idea that he didn't want to intentionally tank isn't out of line with his history.
I'd actually gotten concerned that he'd lost his drive, since he's been going along with AKME's idiocy. Him taking over player development is a good thing on that front. I think it says he's gotten tired enough of AKME's incompetence that he's willing to take on more of what he tried to get away from, just to put a better product on the court. He is genuinely good at player development and I suspect we'll see more improvement from the players overall than we have in a while (with the possible exception of what we were beginning to see under Patton).
if there's any legitimacy to the Bradley Beal rumors (there isn't so far) that will signal Donovan's influence
I can see it if I squint. Somebody with more sales skills than AKME would have to convince Beal he could be the next Jordan. But maybe he's already convinced himself. He did say he is open to going to an exceptional organization. We have to be on that short list, right?
The negotiations are probably almost completed. I am guessing that Suns, now with Brooks and Green, are looking to get off Allen's contract, and we could take him into our trade exception.
Beal, Maluach and Fleming for Williams, Okoro and expirings, maybe Collins and Carter, along with any picks the Suns might have left. (I think one at least?)
Then a 2nd round pick for Allen.
I think Suns feel very lucky Maluach fell to them, they aren't going to use him to just get off of money
I just don't see how the Suns make it worth the Bulls while to vaporize $30M in 2026 cap room (difference between Beal and PWill), especially because the Bulls don't value first round picks. They don't have 'young players with experience' to offer
With the way the league is going now, I think the $30M in cap room is not super useful.
1. Generally, actual good players re-sign with their own teams or do trades.
2. The Bulls are way far down the list of teams anyone wants to go to.
3. I don't believe anything from the Bulls. They're fucking cheap. Every year they whisper about having some level of interest in a guy (this year it's Kuminga) and then they shut up and trade for Isaac Okoro the moment they realize he's going to cost a bunch of money because other teams are interested too.
The best case of them using their cap money is probably taking on a guy like Beale and getting picks, but like you said, they don't value picks. But they sure as shit ain't gonna do anything else useful with that cap space.
It's also reason I simply can't see Reinsdorf paying $52M for a player. He'd literally have a stroke. We'll probably get Beal after a buyout.
The AKME Bulls act like there's a superstar already on the team and they need to carefully build around them. Good job! You successfully built a roster around Victor Wembanyama by passing up every chance of being in a position to get a Victor Wembanyama.
It's like building a restaurant around appetizers and gaslighting the customers that there's an entree in there somewhere.
Interesting thought exercise is who the Bulls will 'target' in a Vuc trade. Someone who makes a bit but not too much, is old but not too old, and whose current team knows isn't good enough but good enough for a 35 win East team
I'd say Jalen Smith but we already have him!
Eek... Deandre Ayton. AK will give Portland back their pick bc he's younger than Vuc
NEVERMIND. Ayton in talks for buyout. Still time for AK to swoop in and offer a pick lol
Nic Claxton is who I would target. A three-team with the Celtics that sends Simons to the Nets makes sense for everyone. Nets get a solid expiring player they could flip if they wanted or maybe even keep as a building block. Celtics get a center they need and take another bite out of their payroll. Bulls get an athletic, defense-oriented big on a declining contract.
Gives the Bulls three flavors of bigs, which would allow some interesting lineup flexibility. I don't think Claxton is THE GUY, but I'd like it in the short/medium-term.
Good call, Claxton is 26 and signed long term and a play-in caliber starter
I think Vuc goes to GS as part of the Kuminga trade. Vuc and Coby for Kuminga and Podz, with Hield thrown in to make the salaries work.
Why are the Bulls sending out the best young player in this trade?
if so, Vuc is just a salary throw-in. I don't think Warriors actually want him. They have Quinten Post at 10% the salary.
Vuc is not good enough to start for a contender, he is perfect for a team like the Bulls who want to Stay Competitive Every Night
Kuminga and Podz will both end up better than Coby. They are both better now than Coby was at 22. And we aren't going to re-sign Coby anyway. Haha about Post.
No they won't. But if you believe that I get your thinking.
Bulls are the ultimate sucker. worst run org in basketball, which is saying a lot.
How about this for ugly:
1. Bulls get Beal and Maluach from the Suns for Vuc, Pat, Jalen Smith
2. Bulls get Ayton for Huerter, Ayo, Carter, Terry
3 (separate trade) Suns get Jrue, Blazers get Jalen Green
Bulls
G- Coby, Beal
G/F-Giddey, Okoro,
F- Matas, Essengue, Phillips
C-Ayton, Collins, Maluach
I don't find that to be a very enjoyable roster
Suns
Jrue
Booker
Brooks, Wells
Pat, O'Neal
Vuc, Williams, Smith
Blazers
Scoot, Ayo
Green, Sharp
Deni, Huerter
Grant, Williams
Clingan, Yang
Actually, I don't find any of these guys to have very fun looking teams. They do this massive trade, and they're still all forgettable. GIGO.
You really like Ayton. I read Knicks have interest, in a trade for KAT. Other pieces too of course.
We could trade Huerter for Hunter and a pick and help the Cavs save $$.
We could also trade Coby to the Pistons into space for a couple picks. He is a big upgrade from Beasley and they have a LOT of picks.
I don't like Ayton one bit.
If they were to trade Coby to the Pistons they'd get back Isaiah Stewart. Joe Cowley will praise it as toughness
Can't wait for the Josh Giddey contract to be 'termed tradeable' and then be told that we're idiots for expecting to get value out of it in the future.