Well put, but aren’t the punishments imposed on owners intended to deter said owners from “overspending” on players, thereby screwing labor indirectly?
a Vuc-for-Tucker (plus a min guy) works, though I don't know if it'd put them in the 2nd apron as it depends on George and Harden
that's kind of the point of my post: the NBA has tried to punish the Clippers for going so far over the tax, when it was a nice get-out-of-jail-free card for bad contracts!
Bulls need D'Angelo Russell to pick up his player option with the Lakers. It's $18.6M, Perhaps could sign a big multiyear deal. Maybe if they told him he's gonna get traded (he may feel like a scapegoat)
if he opts in Lakers are ~$14M under 2nd apron. So it'll be a pain to add salary but they can do it to a point.
Russell+Wood (already picked up PO)+Vanderbilt+Rui ~$3.5M additional if they take back LaVine AND Caruso
I think the only way you can get a pick for LaVine is if Caruso goes too
Get youngish guys who are actually 6'8" . Probably want to move Russell before the season but that shouldn't be impossible (send him into Detroit's cap space?). Most important is getting Zach's long term money and minutes off the squad
I think I'd rather see what the Warriors would be willing to give up for Caruso and then ship Zach out for bad contracts and a pick if possible.
The only player in that Lakers deal that I actually like is Vanderbilt. Admittedly I haven't followed him closely but I feel like he's always injured. He does provide pretty much everything the Bulls need in a power forward though.
I'd also be afraid AK would want to keep DLo since he would be the only "true" point guard on this team and he shoots the three well on high volume - two things this team technically needs. But he's another Lavine really. Doesn't impact winning due to being a fairly low IQ player despite putting up nice stats.
I think only Beal is worse. LaVine hasn't even built up playoff disappointments yet.
speaking of, the Trae Young slander is ridiculous in comparison to LaVine. People turning their noses up at Young for LaVine don't consider that Atlanta would never do that. They may do LaVine+Coby for Young, that's how disparate their value is
probably still the Bulls as Portland is under no urgency to be good anytime soon so it's not like they need to move off Ayton's money (and can sell that he's still young)
When I first read this, I started to puke in my mouth thinking about how boring and bad the Bulls would be with that Lakers pupu platter. But this is actually a good idea (the trade, not the puke). Bulls pretty much need a miracle draft to get on a championship path. I could deal with 2 years of Rui if it meant getting Cooper Flagg next draft. By the way, "Cooper Flagg" sounds like he should be jumping out of a helicopter with Snake Eyes and Duke instead of playing for Duke.
We don't even have to imagine how boring and bad they are with LaVine. It truly is addition by subtraction in any Zach trade, if whatever players they receive are at least easier to trade, even better. But main goal is to simply free up shots for Coby and Ayo.
One point of clarification - Ben Simmons should be on there. It doesn't matter for insurance purposes whether the contract gets traded or the injury was known about.
Those things only matter for the situation where the team is apply to have the injured player's salary removed from the cap.
Basically, two things can happen, independently.
1. If a player has an insured contract and is injured, then the team gets 80% of his salary back as an insurance payout. The player still gets paid and he still counts against the cap though.
2. The team can say the player has suffered a career ending injury. In this case, the team has to waive the player, and, if the league agrees, the player will no longer count against the cap unless he miraculously comes back and plays more than 25 games. However, as in the first situation, the player still gets paid no matter what. It just doesn't count against the team's salary cap.
Yeah. Basically trading Lonzo wouldn't help get a team out of the LT, but if a team is going to punt on the year and knows it, they'd at least get a big rebate (assuming the likely case that he doesn't play).
Of course, "team is going to punt on the year and knows it" is basically a long way to say "Chicago Bulls"
I know things are place and time and role dependent and all that (and some of these are loooong ago), but a list of players the Bulls deemed not good enough to play for them who are still playing on one of the 8 best teams in the league, in (roughly) descending order of importance:
Max Strus
Daniel Gafford
Derrick Jones, Jr.
Justin Holiday
Luke Kornett
Doug McDermott
Did any of these guys allow them to get ANYthing of significance?
I mean, the Strus thing was vaguely defensible because he did tear his ACL and was on a 2 way anyway. I don't really remember the circumstances other than that, and not saying they shouldn't have tried to keep him, but also we know the bulls' history in helping people recover from knee injuries lol. I also do think the Gafford thing is a bit of revisionist history, his TOV% was higher than his USG when he was with the bulls. And we got Theis out of that deal, who of course we also didn't keep but was an interesting prospect at the time.
Also, you talk about wings who can pass but can't shoot. How is that different from Garpax? I feel like they never signed/drafted any "shooters" other than like McDermott lol. It seems to be bulls culture to sign a bunch of undersized guys who can't shoot overall lol.
And don't take this to mean I approve of the moves etc. Just that it doesn't seem to be specific to AK when it comes to the bulls..
Yes Strus tore his ACL while playing for the windy city bulls in the 19-20 season.
But just with gafford all I'm saying is I don't remember people lamenting this loss greatly so it feels a bit revisionist. But hey if you were out there back then wishing we had kept him then I mean well you were right. My take is just that he wasn't that great as a bull and I didn't see a lot of people rueing the move at the time. At the time the trade seemed pretty even and we also got rid of Hutchison, another ah, wing who can't shoot lol. Like I said. This trend goes beyond AK.
Now that the Bulls have the 11th pick in the draft, do we think that they’ll get more or less value from the draft pick than they got from Dalen Terry?
The Bulls aren't going to be competing anytime soon, so I'd rather draft on potential than on need. With that being said, I don't trust AK in the slightest to make a decent draft pick, so I guess it doesn't really matter.
With how weak this draft is, I think pretty much anyone in the lottery could be picked anywhere. So I really have no idea who will still be available at 11.
Can't remember where I saw it now, but someone pointed out that AK basically drafted replacements for players he'd just lost the last two drafts. In 2022 Troy Brown Jr left in free agency and AK drafted Dalen Terry. In 2023 DJJ left and AK drafted Phillips.
If we go by that logic, AK will likely take a center since re-signing Drummond is going to be nearly impossible. There are a few centers he could choose from, although none of them likely should go as high as the 11th pick.
But also, AK seems to love long, athletic offensive black holes, so maybe he'll go with another one of those instead of a center. Who knows with that man.
Edit: it was granvillator who mentioned this. I'm just blind and totally missed it.
I swore I read it on BaB but searched the last three articles and could not find it! That's definitely my bad. I was skimming kind of quickly because I was at work 😂
Not really before the consensus comes in from the combine. Things are so up in the air right now. Basically I just want them to take whoever has the most upside.
Lonzo's injury has been a great case study in personality types.
You have the people who are irrationally angry that Lonzo is accepting the $20 million a year that the Bulls agreed to pay him, as if because he got injured that contract should now be null and void.
Then you have the more rational, albeit slightly pessimistic, folks who doubt he will ever return.
Then there are the rational, slightly optimistic folks who think he'll suit up for a few games before realizing he just can't do it at the pro level anymore.
Then you have the irrationally optimistic people who think he's magically going to come back and be the player he was before his injuries. And not just that he'll come back and be the same player, but he'll also magically never have injury issue again, despite the fact that he's struggled with injuries his entire career up to this point.
I think Charlotte is a big contender here. They have a max slot open and tradeable contracts. They can even throw in a 2nd round pick. And I think with the talent on the team, Zach's reps may want to actually play there.
Surprised there's no chatter here about the big offseason moves the Bulls just made (Wes Unseld Jr and Dan Craig). Do you think AKME will have any more juice left after this for the rest of the offseason?
Just like holding training camp in Tennessee last year and bringing in vets like Dragic and Drummond the year before, bringing in fairly big name and successful assistant coaches will be touted as the big moves made this offseason to help this same exact team take the next step. And just like the past two seasons, the team will remain just below .500 next season.
Remember that time when we were afraid the Pacers would drop into the play-in and we'd beat them? 😂😂
Anyway, I was rooting for the Knicks because of Thibs and I genuinely like a lot of the guys on that team, outside of Randle. But it's hard not to enjoy that Pacers team. The speed at which they play is truly impressive.
i mean, i could never truly root for the knicks, but definitely against the sixers. thibs will always tip the scales for me. it's nice to be able to appreciate the pacers though unlike the gross stephenson/foster days.
I'm too young to remember the Knicks/Bulls rivalries so I've never had too much of a problem rooting for them (when Rose and Jo first went there and then again when Thibs became coach). But yeah, this Pacers team is just so fun to watch. I totally forgot about Lance Stephenson for a while there. Fuck that guy.
I'm always rooting for Thibs (except when he plays the Bulls or 76ers), but can't stand watching the constant Trae-level (or worse) grifting displayed by Jalen Brunson and allowed by the NBA officiating all playoffs. I thought this was ruled illegal a couple of years ago, but obviously the refs forgot about it.
it just feels so inevitable the bulls are just gonna pay him some crazyass amount and he's gonna just be like yeah lol ok
Not sure he bet on himself as much as he took whatever offer he could find to get off of this team. Regardless, it was clearly the right decision.
Well put, but aren’t the punishments imposed on owners intended to deter said owners from “overspending” on players, thereby screwing labor indirectly?
Right, that’s what I had in mind.
Clippers for Zach? Id be happy with Terrance Mann and fodder ie Powell and Tucker. I'm really hoping they use Caruso to get off Vuc.
a Vuc-for-Tucker (plus a min guy) works, though I don't know if it'd put them in the 2nd apron as it depends on George and Harden
that's kind of the point of my post: the NBA has tried to punish the Clippers for going so far over the tax, when it was a nice get-out-of-jail-free card for bad contracts!
so yes perhaps they'd go for Zach, but only if PG and/or Harden leaves
Bulls need D'Angelo Russell to pick up his player option with the Lakers. It's $18.6M, Perhaps could sign a big multiyear deal. Maybe if they told him he's gonna get traded (he may feel like a scapegoat)
if he opts in Lakers are ~$14M under 2nd apron. So it'll be a pain to add salary but they can do it to a point.
Russell+Wood (already picked up PO)+Vanderbilt+Rui ~$3.5M additional if they take back LaVine AND Caruso
I think the only way you can get a pick for LaVine is if Caruso goes too
Get youngish guys who are actually 6'8" . Probably want to move Russell before the season but that shouldn't be impossible (send him into Detroit's cap space?). Most important is getting Zach's long term money and minutes off the squad
I think I'd rather see what the Warriors would be willing to give up for Caruso and then ship Zach out for bad contracts and a pick if possible.
The only player in that Lakers deal that I actually like is Vanderbilt. Admittedly I haven't followed him closely but I feel like he's always injured. He does provide pretty much everything the Bulls need in a power forward though.
I'd also be afraid AK would want to keep DLo since he would be the only "true" point guard on this team and he shoots the three well on high volume - two things this team technically needs. But he's another Lavine really. Doesn't impact winning due to being a fairly low IQ player despite putting up nice stats.
IIRC Nate Duncan and co took Zach as the worst
I think only Beal is worse. LaVine hasn't even built up playoff disappointments yet.
speaking of, the Trae Young slander is ridiculous in comparison to LaVine. People turning their noses up at Young for LaVine don't consider that Atlanta would never do that. They may do LaVine+Coby for Young, that's how disparate their value is
Deandre Ayton is pretty bad because of how much a big-minute center who sucks can hurt you. (Vuc also a top-10 worst contract, right?)
even so, he's way younger, $10M less, and contract ends one year sooner
Michael Porter Jr. is pretty bad, but ironically LaVine would be a lot more desired if he played like MPJ instead of having Kobe-brain
Would you trade Vuc for Ayton? Who would have to sweeten the pot?
probably still the Bulls as Portland is under no urgency to be good anytime soon so it's not like they need to move off Ayton's money (and can sell that he's still young)
When I first read this, I started to puke in my mouth thinking about how boring and bad the Bulls would be with that Lakers pupu platter. But this is actually a good idea (the trade, not the puke). Bulls pretty much need a miracle draft to get on a championship path. I could deal with 2 years of Rui if it meant getting Cooper Flagg next draft. By the way, "Cooper Flagg" sounds like he should be jumping out of a helicopter with Snake Eyes and Duke instead of playing for Duke.
We don't even have to imagine how boring and bad they are with LaVine. It truly is addition by subtraction in any Zach trade, if whatever players they receive are at least easier to trade, even better. But main goal is to simply free up shots for Coby and Ayo.
One point of clarification - Ben Simmons should be on there. It doesn't matter for insurance purposes whether the contract gets traded or the injury was known about.
Those things only matter for the situation where the team is apply to have the injured player's salary removed from the cap.
Basically, two things can happen, independently.
1. If a player has an insured contract and is injured, then the team gets 80% of his salary back as an insurance payout. The player still gets paid and he still counts against the cap though.
2. The team can say the player has suffered a career ending injury. In this case, the team has to waive the player, and, if the league agrees, the player will no longer count against the cap unless he miraculously comes back and plays more than 25 games. However, as in the first situation, the player still gets paid no matter what. It just doesn't count against the team's salary cap.
I think you're right. I am not sure why I said Lonzo's deal could be traded with the reimbursement but then Simmons couldn't.
I edited it and now BKN has the lowest payroll in the league
also helped shorten the big disclaimer, thanks again!
Yeah. Basically trading Lonzo wouldn't help get a team out of the LT, but if a team is going to punt on the year and knows it, they'd at least get a big rebate (assuming the likely case that he doesn't play).
Of course, "team is going to punt on the year and knows it" is basically a long way to say "Chicago Bulls"
I know things are place and time and role dependent and all that (and some of these are loooong ago), but a list of players the Bulls deemed not good enough to play for them who are still playing on one of the 8 best teams in the league, in (roughly) descending order of importance:
Max Strus
Daniel Gafford
Derrick Jones, Jr.
Justin Holiday
Luke Kornett
Doug McDermott
Did any of these guys allow them to get ANYthing of significance?
I mean, the Strus thing was vaguely defensible because he did tear his ACL and was on a 2 way anyway. I don't really remember the circumstances other than that, and not saying they shouldn't have tried to keep him, but also we know the bulls' history in helping people recover from knee injuries lol. I also do think the Gafford thing is a bit of revisionist history, his TOV% was higher than his USG when he was with the bulls. And we got Theis out of that deal, who of course we also didn't keep but was an interesting prospect at the time.
Also, you talk about wings who can pass but can't shoot. How is that different from Garpax? I feel like they never signed/drafted any "shooters" other than like McDermott lol. It seems to be bulls culture to sign a bunch of undersized guys who can't shoot overall lol.
And don't take this to mean I approve of the moves etc. Just that it doesn't seem to be specific to AK when it comes to the bulls..
Yes Strus tore his ACL while playing for the windy city bulls in the 19-20 season.
But just with gafford all I'm saying is I don't remember people lamenting this loss greatly so it feels a bit revisionist. But hey if you were out there back then wishing we had kept him then I mean well you were right. My take is just that he wasn't that great as a bull and I didn't see a lot of people rueing the move at the time. At the time the trade seemed pretty even and we also got rid of Hutchison, another ah, wing who can't shoot lol. Like I said. This trend goes beyond AK.
I would take these guys over their respective counterparts:
Strus + $22 million > LaVine
Gafford + $7 million > Vucevic
DJJ > Dalen Terry
Holiday > Torrey Craig
For a non-Lonzo lineup of
White - Dosunmu
Strus - Caruso
DeRozan - Holiday
DJJ - Williams
Gafford - Drummond
Not at all sexy without the empty calorie scoring of LaVine and Vucevic, but I’d take this over the crap they have.
Now that the Bulls have the 11th pick in the draft, do we think that they’ll get more or less value from the draft pick than they got from Dalen Terry?
Zach Edey, come on down!
So are there any particular players that are likely to be available at pick 11 that you all think would be a good fit?
I've seen Donovan Clingan (C - UConn) listed as low as 17, Yves Missi (C - Baylor) between 11-24, and Ron Holland (PF - G-League) as low as 9.
Not sure if any of them would be a great fit, but they looked like they have potential.
The Bulls aren't going to be competing anytime soon, so I'd rather draft on potential than on need. With that being said, I don't trust AK in the slightest to make a decent draft pick, so I guess it doesn't really matter.
With how weak this draft is, I think pretty much anyone in the lottery could be picked anywhere. So I really have no idea who will still be available at 11.
Haha. I don't trust AK at all either. I'd just like to be educated enough to be able to criticize him intelligently.
Can't remember where I saw it now, but someone pointed out that AK basically drafted replacements for players he'd just lost the last two drafts. In 2022 Troy Brown Jr left in free agency and AK drafted Dalen Terry. In 2023 DJJ left and AK drafted Phillips.
If we go by that logic, AK will likely take a center since re-signing Drummond is going to be nearly impossible. There are a few centers he could choose from, although none of them likely should go as high as the 11th pick.
But also, AK seems to love long, athletic offensive black holes, so maybe he'll go with another one of those instead of a center. Who knows with that man.
Edit: it was granvillator who mentioned this. I'm just blind and totally missed it.
I swore I read it on BaB but searched the last three articles and could not find it! That's definitely my bad. I was skimming kind of quickly because I was at work 😂
Edited my comment above to give you credit haha
I've read similar. That's part of why I focused on center... that and the fact that Vuc is mediocre.
Anyone you would be interested in, if you were picking? Ignoring AK's predilections.
Not really before the consensus comes in from the combine. Things are so up in the air right now. Basically I just want them to take whoever has the most upside.
The Return, Part Whatever:
https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/bulls-news/lonzo-ball-provides-injury-update-on-the-premiere-episode-of-his-new-podcast/562097/
i marvel at how 'podcast' is such an antiquated term but is so prevalent at the same time
hes one of the few guys i wanted all along that the bulls actually got. and it WORKED. until it didn't, of course
Lonzo's injury has been a great case study in personality types.
You have the people who are irrationally angry that Lonzo is accepting the $20 million a year that the Bulls agreed to pay him, as if because he got injured that contract should now be null and void.
Then you have the more rational, albeit slightly pessimistic, folks who doubt he will ever return.
Then there are the rational, slightly optimistic folks who think he'll suit up for a few games before realizing he just can't do it at the pro level anymore.
Then you have the irrationally optimistic people who think he's magically going to come back and be the player he was before his injuries. And not just that he'll come back and be the same player, but he'll also magically never have injury issue again, despite the fact that he's struggled with injuries his entire career up to this point.
only thing that matters is how AK and 'dorf feel about it
they likely feel like they win either way: a very sellable comeback story or an insurance reimbursement
what's more improbable, becoming the first meaningful return from cartilage replacement surgery, or creating an actually-good Bulls podcast?
I asked Gemini (Google's version of Chat GTP) to write a poem about the Bulls under Jerry's ownership. I thought I'd share:
In Windy City's heart, a team once so bold,
The Bulls' spirit wanes, a story untold.
Reinsdorf's reign lingers, a grip ever tight,
Championship dreams fade in the pale moonlight.
With purse strings held firmly, ambitions take flight,
But plummet to earth in the financial night.
Free agency whispers, a siren's sweet song,
Yet wallets stay shut, where superstars belong.
The shadows of Jordan, a legacy vast,
Haunt every roster, a challenge unsurpassed.
While rivals find fortune with big money bets,
The Bulls play it safe, forever in debt.
But hope flickers still, in the hearts of the fans,
That someday a shift, a new era expands.
When spending meets smarts, and a vision takes hold,
The Bulls might just rise, with a story retold.
I think Charlotte is a big contender here. They have a max slot open and tradeable contracts. They can even throw in a 2nd round pick. And I think with the talent on the team, Zach's reps may want to actually play there.
Surprised there's no chatter here about the big offseason moves the Bulls just made (Wes Unseld Jr and Dan Craig). Do you think AKME will have any more juice left after this for the rest of the offseason?
Just like holding training camp in Tennessee last year and bringing in vets like Dragic and Drummond the year before, bringing in fairly big name and successful assistant coaches will be touted as the big moves made this offseason to help this same exact team take the next step. And just like the past two seasons, the team will remain just below .500 next season.
Remember that time when we were afraid the Pacers would drop into the play-in and we'd beat them? 😂😂
Anyway, I was rooting for the Knicks because of Thibs and I genuinely like a lot of the guys on that team, outside of Randle. But it's hard not to enjoy that Pacers team. The speed at which they play is truly impressive.
i mean, i could never truly root for the knicks, but definitely against the sixers. thibs will always tip the scales for me. it's nice to be able to appreciate the pacers though unlike the gross stephenson/foster days.
I'm too young to remember the Knicks/Bulls rivalries so I've never had too much of a problem rooting for them (when Rose and Jo first went there and then again when Thibs became coach). But yeah, this Pacers team is just so fun to watch. I totally forgot about Lance Stephenson for a while there. Fuck that guy.
he truly is one of my least favorite players ever. ick. that whole team was really unlikeable, except like mike dunleavy lol.
I'm always rooting for Thibs (except when he plays the Bulls or 76ers), but can't stand watching the constant Trae-level (or worse) grifting displayed by Jalen Brunson and allowed by the NBA officiating all playoffs. I thought this was ruled illegal a couple of years ago, but obviously the refs forgot about it.
I definitely don't like that part of Brunson's game, but I still like him 100x more than Trae.