They played pretty well. If you look at game threads, you'll see everyone saying that they need to trade/bench/defenestrate DDR because he ISOs, but the truth is, you need a couple guys who can do that, and DDR has a pretty good sense of when to do it.
People who say otherwise aren't thinking about what happens on all those possessions when you don't have a guy who can do that. Like, Coby played great, but he made a bad decision to try to split a double close to the end that almost cost them big time.
At the same time, DeRozan drove and drew a 5th foul by Embiid on an iso and drove and drew a foul by Harris to mostly seal it. He got a steal on Harris and a key rebound in that period too.
Point is, people should enjoy what we've got more and not jump the gun. These guys are playing well, and having guys who can somewhat reliably go one one one when the situation calls for it is pretty important. Folks like to think there's some platonic ideal where that's not necessary, but it totally is.
While I get what you're saying, I think DeMar still forces things late in games when he shouldn't. That doesn't mean he isn't valuable late game. Both can be true at the same time.
Plus, a lot of people want him traded because they don't want AK to re-sign him to a giant contract this summer.
DeMar is aging more gracefully than I thought he would. He's put in some work on getting to the right place to make 3s, and he's getting to the line at higher rates than before. Defensively, he sucks, but he sucks in the way that most older players sucks, and he's generally pretty smart. He gets rebounds, takes charges, and steals. He's moving more without the ball and passing more quickly with it. Him and Coby are both taking great care of the ball. Hardly any TOs.
What are the options if he leaves? Being a back to a 25 win team that owes our draft pick to the Spurs? Someone needs to present a game plan that's not "tank and be horrible for the next five years".
I'm actually fine with re-signing DeMar. I just don't trust AK to re-sign him to a decent deal. He re-signed Vooch to a "hometown discount" of 3 years, $60 million, which makes me incredibly scared of what he'd re-sign DeMar to.
But I do agree with you. I think DeMar will age well. His three point attempts and percentages are both up this year. If he leans into that and is willing to take 3-4 per game at roughly 36% for the remainder of his career, I think that would help greatly.
As you say, he does a lot of little things well and he's a smart player. Plus, he's a great mentor to the young guys, which is important. I'm not entirely sure what a fair deal would be like for him, but if he'd take something similar to Vooch, I think I'd be fine with it. My guess is he wants at least $10 million a season more than that though, and I wouldn't be okay with that.
I definitely appreciate his ability. The main problem last night was he wasn't even getting many calls, so when he forces it in a game that's being officiated like that, that decision can be questionable. He was lucky to get that call on Harris given everything else that the refs let go.
I only have advocated to trade him because I think he deserves to be on a more successful team, not that I don't like him (also the bit about overpaying him as noted).
I guess my point is that I don't think players (be it DeMar or anyone) and coaches calibrate their play and their playing time decisions to what the particular trend in a particular game is.
It's not just that these fine levels of control don't exist, it's that operating on them would be counterproductive. It's like saying, in hindsight a guy shouldn't have taken a shot he missed. Sure, but he's out there to take that shot.
As to overpaying him, I don't have much sense for what his market will be. But when I hear people dead set against having him back, I think:
1. I don't want to tank.
2. Who else are we going to spend that salary on?
3. Leadership and fun are underrated. People pay lip service to it, but you can tell that most people don't get it and don't believe it because they'll drop it on a dime and then wonder why their team plays like a bunch of dudes that hate each other.
This is my big concern about trading DDR & Caruso. Those two lead by example. If we trade them (and I think we probably should), we need to get back at least one guy who fits that mould.
I think Coby is learning that role from them, but he's still green in that context. He's also had Zach as the perfect example of how not to do it which probably drives the point home. I could see him reaching similar leadership role as DDR & Caruso in a couple of years once he is solidly established as a starting level player.
Fair and plus we see the game differently as spectators, even different from the coach due to camera angles etc, and it's a completely different way to make a judgment on what to do.
I only question the "who else" thing because that was the Vuc argument, and I know you weren't on board there. But since it wasn't true money above the cap, there was an argument that it was otherwise going to be "wasted" if we didn't resign him or something. So I don't want to do it just to do it, but I'm definitely not opposed either. As I said I mostly advocated for a trade because I thought he deserved to go somewhere he might be able to win - it isn't going to be here. He definitely became one of my favorite guys in the league after he joined the team.
I mostly just saw the 2nd half but they played about as well as you could reasonably hope for given the talent deficit. Really says something about Embiid that he can go off for 30+ and I thought he was still "somewhat contained."
Embiid must love playing against Vooch. Absolutely torches him every time they play each other. Thankfully Vooch hit some big threes late to at least somewhat make up for it.
If someone could teach Pat how to finish at the rim, he'd be so much better. He was getting to the rim at will last night. He just doesn't know how to finish.
Overall good win against another good team. I've been trying not to get too excited over this small sample size from Coby, but he looks legit. If he can keep this up, the Bulls have a great player on a great contract.
LIVE OPEN THREAD: https://substack.com/chat/1508779/post/3e91e22a-5a38-4778-994a-7e2a05d1482b?utm_source=post-permalink
Is Coby becoming an All Star?
Penciling him in for MVP
MIP maybe! And if Coby keeps this up, I don't think All-Star is out of the question - which is totally bonkers.
I didn't get to watch the game, but took a peek at the game thread.
Did the team play as well as it seemed to? I saw DDR had an off day, but it looks like everyone else (Ayo aside) made up for that?
They played pretty well. If you look at game threads, you'll see everyone saying that they need to trade/bench/defenestrate DDR because he ISOs, but the truth is, you need a couple guys who can do that, and DDR has a pretty good sense of when to do it.
People who say otherwise aren't thinking about what happens on all those possessions when you don't have a guy who can do that. Like, Coby played great, but he made a bad decision to try to split a double close to the end that almost cost them big time.
At the same time, DeRozan drove and drew a 5th foul by Embiid on an iso and drove and drew a foul by Harris to mostly seal it. He got a steal on Harris and a key rebound in that period too.
Point is, people should enjoy what we've got more and not jump the gun. These guys are playing well, and having guys who can somewhat reliably go one one one when the situation calls for it is pretty important. Folks like to think there's some platonic ideal where that's not necessary, but it totally is.
While I get what you're saying, I think DeMar still forces things late in games when he shouldn't. That doesn't mean he isn't valuable late game. Both can be true at the same time.
Plus, a lot of people want him traded because they don't want AK to re-sign him to a giant contract this summer.
DeMar is aging more gracefully than I thought he would. He's put in some work on getting to the right place to make 3s, and he's getting to the line at higher rates than before. Defensively, he sucks, but he sucks in the way that most older players sucks, and he's generally pretty smart. He gets rebounds, takes charges, and steals. He's moving more without the ball and passing more quickly with it. Him and Coby are both taking great care of the ball. Hardly any TOs.
What are the options if he leaves? Being a back to a 25 win team that owes our draft pick to the Spurs? Someone needs to present a game plan that's not "tank and be horrible for the next five years".
I'm actually fine with re-signing DeMar. I just don't trust AK to re-sign him to a decent deal. He re-signed Vooch to a "hometown discount" of 3 years, $60 million, which makes me incredibly scared of what he'd re-sign DeMar to.
But I do agree with you. I think DeMar will age well. His three point attempts and percentages are both up this year. If he leans into that and is willing to take 3-4 per game at roughly 36% for the remainder of his career, I think that would help greatly.
As you say, he does a lot of little things well and he's a smart player. Plus, he's a great mentor to the young guys, which is important. I'm not entirely sure what a fair deal would be like for him, but if he'd take something similar to Vooch, I think I'd be fine with it. My guess is he wants at least $10 million a season more than that though, and I wouldn't be okay with that.
I definitely appreciate his ability. The main problem last night was he wasn't even getting many calls, so when he forces it in a game that's being officiated like that, that decision can be questionable. He was lucky to get that call on Harris given everything else that the refs let go.
I only have advocated to trade him because I think he deserves to be on a more successful team, not that I don't like him (also the bit about overpaying him as noted).
But agreed that that skill is very necessary.
I guess my point is that I don't think players (be it DeMar or anyone) and coaches calibrate their play and their playing time decisions to what the particular trend in a particular game is.
It's not just that these fine levels of control don't exist, it's that operating on them would be counterproductive. It's like saying, in hindsight a guy shouldn't have taken a shot he missed. Sure, but he's out there to take that shot.
As to overpaying him, I don't have much sense for what his market will be. But when I hear people dead set against having him back, I think:
1. I don't want to tank.
2. Who else are we going to spend that salary on?
3. Leadership and fun are underrated. People pay lip service to it, but you can tell that most people don't get it and don't believe it because they'll drop it on a dime and then wonder why their team plays like a bunch of dudes that hate each other.
>Leadership and fun are underrated.
This is my big concern about trading DDR & Caruso. Those two lead by example. If we trade them (and I think we probably should), we need to get back at least one guy who fits that mould.
I think Coby is learning that role from them, but he's still green in that context. He's also had Zach as the perfect example of how not to do it which probably drives the point home. I could see him reaching similar leadership role as DDR & Caruso in a couple of years once he is solidly established as a starting level player.
Fair and plus we see the game differently as spectators, even different from the coach due to camera angles etc, and it's a completely different way to make a judgment on what to do.
I only question the "who else" thing because that was the Vuc argument, and I know you weren't on board there. But since it wasn't true money above the cap, there was an argument that it was otherwise going to be "wasted" if we didn't resign him or something. So I don't want to do it just to do it, but I'm definitely not opposed either. As I said I mostly advocated for a trade because I thought he deserved to go somewhere he might be able to win - it isn't going to be here. He definitely became one of my favorite guys in the league after he joined the team.
I mostly just saw the 2nd half but they played about as well as you could reasonably hope for given the talent deficit. Really says something about Embiid that he can go off for 30+ and I thought he was still "somewhat contained."
They made him into a jump shooting big and limited maxey. Embiid made his jump shots but it was a static offense.
I mean Maxey still had 29 pts but didn't shoot it great.
Really it was that the two of them combined for 69 pts and no one else reached double digits.
Embiid must love playing against Vooch. Absolutely torches him every time they play each other. Thankfully Vooch hit some big threes late to at least somewhat make up for it.
If someone could teach Pat how to finish at the rim, he'd be so much better. He was getting to the rim at will last night. He just doesn't know how to finish.
Overall good win against another good team. I've been trying not to get too excited over this small sample size from Coby, but he looks legit. If he can keep this up, the Bulls have a great player on a great contract.
Sixers should trade for LaVine!!