Yeah I'm out on Vuc. He's really softer than I initially thought when we traded for him. Not just a bad defender. But also a lazy defender. Also doesn't seem receptive to criticism or instruction from teammates in game. Big missed opportunity to trade him at the deadline.
Donovan I can take or leave. This roster construction isn't doing him any favors. And I'm not certain we could land anyone better.
Blazers would be an interesting trade target .. they are hungry to get Lillard help and Bulls desperately need athletes, cap flexibility and a draft pick
Would love it if they could somehow pry Sharpe away, but they might not be willing to let go of him as great as he looked down the stretch. Simons might be all you could get.
Maybe the Knicks looking to push into the top of the East - lots of picks and young rotational guys there. Or (gulp) a sign and trade with Dallas for Kyrie? Dream would be the Lakers flop in the first round and give up on the AD/LeBron era, and Davis wants to come home to Chicago. Would love a Zach and AD pairing.
Maybe the Bulls could move DeMar + the Portland pick for Sharpe + Eubanks + Grant (for matching salary)...? Or if they insisted on keeping Sharpe, the Bulls could insist they removed the protections and send the pick to the Bulls this year.
Grant is a UFA, so it'd have to be a sign + trade, but I wouldn't hate something like that. Or like H_Vaughn mentioned, something around Simons and unprotecting this year's pick.
Demar for Anfernee Simons + unprotecting the draft pick they owe us. That would net out as Simons as a 3rd guard/microwave scorer and perhaps one of the Thompson brothers out of the draft.
I would have done the same and tanked for Wembanyama. If the price was right I would have traded Lavine, but even if we kept him the rest of the season he doesn't impact winning so let him score points and build his value back up (as he did the rest of the season and at least the first play-in game) and then trade him in the summer
These two games gave the complete Zach Lavine Experience: some amazing clutch shots, many idiotic shots, flashes of incredible athleticism, momentary glimpses of good defense, a lot of mediocre-to-poor defense, some bad turnovers, and a lot of low basketball IQ.
They ask him (and/or he tries) to do too much. He should never have to bring the ball up the court, make an entry pass or drive and kick. Their roster construction and coaching focus should focus on feeding Lavine (and to a lesser extent, Demar) at spots where the only decision to make is drive and score or pull up and shoot.
Why do they have him bring the ball up? I feel like it’s some trend where if you’re a star and anything but a big then you get to bring the ball up. All it does with Zach is increase the chance of something bad happening by about 200%
This Bulls lose hurts. We all knew the season was a dud compared to the success we had last season with pretty much the same players, but the way they choked this win away was horrifying to watch and so frustrating. Such a good game back and forth, Bulls bench players balling out like Coby White and then losing the game because Miami went on what, a 15-1 run in the last 3 minutes or so to close the game out. Like seriously, that's how you let the game end when you played so well for 45 minutes of the game. So frustrating as a Bulls fan it made me want to pull my hair out. Lavine putting up 40 and then disappearing in this game is nothing unusual sadly. I think we had no choice but to pay him the max but he's not clutch in these big moment spotlight games, he's hit or miss. I don't know what Arturas is gonna do with the Bulls, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't know what direction this team will go in.
Bill Donovan, I don't even know what to say about him. His rotations are god awful and I don't think this team is coached good enough to mitigate the many flaws we seriously have. Why didn't he continue to play Drummond when he was rebounding so well?? Coby White didn't play as much as he should have, we never made any adjustment on Strus who absolutely cooked us from the 3 point line with his 31. We all know what Jimmy Butler can do, but how Billy not make any adjustments? I know he's signed long term with the Bulls but I don't see how he's here much longer if this team continues to fail. He's a player coach and obviously the front office likes him which is why he's been here longer than I think he deserves, but the Bulls are so up and down and I don't know if he's developing the young guys efficiently. Vooch is up for a contract and as much as I think we should let him walk even though he bounced back this season, you just can't. The Orlando trade was awful and you just can't let him walk without getting something. Coby I want to keep because he's proving he can be a 2 way player and wing defender that the Bulls need. I have no idea what Patrick Williams's ceiling is but I give him one more year to show me he's worth an extension.
They're in such a weird position, sitting 11th and owing their pick to Orlando if it doesn't fall in the top 4 which mathematically is possible. Regardless, what's their direction moving forward, their top 3 just don't have enough to make a deep playoff run. Lonzo Ball is whole nother topic but they gotta continue their search for a floor general because he's likely out for all of next season with his 3rd surgery. As Bulls fans, we're used to this mediocrity post Jordan era, but cmon the fans deserve better.
Is Lonzo Ball even a complex topic? Try to get some kind of injury waiver for him next year, and move forward thinking he's never going to contribute to the team. Pat Bev showed any competent, non ball dominant, defensive PG will make the rest of the starters much more competitive. There's really no need to even mention Lonzo any more except rare occasion; it's like discussing Marko or the Blazers pick
Could you imagine if they actually went for a rebuild? They could trade DeRozan and LaVine and let Vuc off the books. They could probably get some good draft capital.
For as much criticism as Vuc receives from this fan base, he led the league in defensive rebounds, was top 3 in double-doubles, has a versatile offensive skillset while passable on the defensive end, is an incredibly healthy starter, and was on a reasonable contract which should have been probably extended or traded. The real issues with Vuc come from the way AK handled him; the picks he gave up in acquiring him, and the inaction towards trading or extending him last deadline while also seemingly still wanting him hence leaving yourself negotiating a new deal this offseason from a point of low leverage. There were plenty of times this year, like with Coby recently, where Vuc was cooking in the first half and then the Zach/ Demar show just didn't give him the ball in the 2nd half because they have to get theirs. Vuc was never a perfect fit in our offense or defensive systems, but he was serviceable. IMO we can easily find tall rim protectors undrafted (no one drafts those types out of college any more) or in other leagues as a good bench center to develop. Who really would be much better than Vuc for this team as a competitive starting center? I look around the league and I don't many teams excited about their centers. Seems to be a good scapegoat position.
For Billy Donovan, I spoke a ton on him at the SB Nation site (including saying swap him out last playoffs way before the extension), but yet another thing I'll say about Billy: this fan base only talks about Billy after losses. They win about as much as they lose with Billy, but when they win it's all due to Zach or Demar or Caruso etc (he just beat Nick Nurse, the in-game genius, but got no credit), but when they lose it's definitely Billy's fault. Seems odd. For what it's worth, Billy forecast during the fervor of the DeMar DeGod stretch last year that it was unsustainable and warned fans (and management?) that changes needed to happen for the team to be sustainably competitive. He told everyone it was fool's gold. Those changes never happened roster wise (until kinda Pat?). You can in hindsight argue about some rotations here and there, or his odd use of challenges, but he's probably somewhere in that top 10-15 coaches range which isn't a major point of concern to a guy like me on why this team underachieves and has hit their ceiling.
I don't think he's the primary problem, which is roster construction, but he's also not the solution to anything. Seems arbitrary to declare he's a top 10-15 coach. He's a gigantic improvement from the literally high school level coach that preceded him, but it also doesn't matter if they fire him as long as they don't hire another gym teacher like Boylen. Billy's main value seems to be as the org's mouthpiece, since AK is apparently afraid to speak on his own behalf.
I said they should have swapped him out last playoff's when they got shellacked by the Bucks, largely because "coaches don't really matter much" and they don't count against your cap, so just cycle them out to get a new voice in there. But saying he's a top 10-15 coach is not arbitrary, because what I'm saying is you are likely not going to do much better than Donovan as far as in-game adjustments or developing youth. He's also got Mo Cheeks on his bench who is another mediocre middling coach; it's not a bad staff it's just average and you'll be hard pressed to improve it. My only reasoning in switching these types of coaches out, is to switch the voice in the locker room. But even then, that voice is far secondary to say the voice of a floor leading PG who holds much more credibility with modern players. Anyway, over arching point is, blaming Donovan for the Bulls struggles, isn't really going to get you anywhere either way. And fans seem to only mention Donovan after losses
But passable on defense is kind of the issue isn't it? You really need your center to be the leader of the defense, and he's just never going to be that.
I wonder if the Wolves have soured enough on Gobert to flip him for pennies on the dollar of what they paid last off-season.
Right and it seems, as on offense, Vuc is very much sensitive to the system he plays in. He was better than just "passable" in Orlando, but as we know the Magic sucked back then so it's not like we should adjust our system to accommodate him more. This is where I look around the league and see most teams don't really love their centers much... KAT was a liability on defense so they overspent for Gobert, who they're now unhappy with. Ayton down in PHX, they were shopping him last offseason and accusing him of not stepping up in big moments for a championship team. Jakob Poetl has always seemed like nothing special when I've watched him and I wouldn't necessarily want him over Vuc. Embiid and Jokic are great, but it never transpires to much success in the playoffs.... So anyway, with a defensive center, I think you're just gonna have to sign a guy super cheap next year, and my theory is that shouldn't be that hard to do, since defensive paint centers are like RB's in the NFL and easy to grab undrafted or out of other leagues. You'll then have to pair him with Vuc to give you what you want in 2 players, sort of how you have to pair Caruso with a guy like Coby cause Caruso doesn't give you offense
Well, we’re about to find out how bad AK really is at this job.
He said at the start of the season that the goal was to win a playoff series. Instead, the team doesn’t even make the playoffs. Falling incredibly short of your goal should result in change, no?
If he gives an end of season press conference, I hope the media reminds him of this goal he set for the team. Put some pressure on him to make changes.
Let Vuc walk. Trade DeMar. Operate under the assumption that Lonzo isn’t coming back and get a new starting PG. Focus on building a team filled with three-point shooting.
I’m expecting a dumpster fire press conference but let’s all keep in mind the words don’t matter. We’ll have to let his actions in the off-season speak.
1. I could be surprised, but I don't think there's a good trade out there for DeMar. Nobody's floated anything that I would do if I were another team... it mostly seems to reek of wishful thinking by Bulls fans.
2. If there's an option to trade Lavine for either a Mitchell/Murray/Gobert kind of haul or Trae, I probably pull the trigger on it. I don't think that's in the cards either.
3. I'm not bringing Vuc back for any more than $1M over the MLE, and for no more than a 3 year deal with the last year NG. I'd be active in trying to S&T him for a guy like Batum, RoCo, Kyle Anderson, Taurean Prince... basically a guy with actual 4 size but some game. Then I'd use exceptions to backfill the center position. I'd kick the tires on Porzingis if the Wizards don't want to pay him but want to pretend Vuc is comparable. He's an injury risk, but he's been solid these last two years. If he'd re-sign for Vuc's current salary, I'd feel good about it. Not at the $30M he's making now. I think that's unlikely, but kind of a wild card I'd investigate.
4. My asking price for Caruso is probably like a 1st and a decent 2nd. This is a really good draft and there are several guys I'm targeting in the late first or early second that I'm confident about. This would be a great year to buy a pick or two.
5. The biggest single problem going forward is that we owe $40M in cap space to a guy who will likely never play again. I'd try to get him taken off the cap with the career ending injury exception. The Bulls don't seem to be signaling that, and if they don't, I'd hope they at least get a DPE, which is another $10M player to add.
6.A The second biggest problem with the team is that we've got this weird, inverted roster that revolves around Vuc. Good offense/Bad defense center + "complementing" Bad offense/Good defense guards is a losing recipe. Unless Vuc is back at a really big discount, I'd just start throwing a bunch of guys at the problem for cheap (Landale, Reid, Hartenstein, Gafford, Biyombo, Plumlee, Bamba, Goga, etc).
6.B. And then go for guys who can shoot elsewhere. Retain Coby, and hopefully bring in a couple guys on top that can shoot. Good teams don't just have one or two guys, they've got a bunch. The Bulls need to prioritize shooting.
I looked at the top 10 offensive teams, and I think it's Vuc and DDR holding us back. I'm not a huge Zach fan, but he fits well on the right team. Vuc and DDR both don't defend well enough, rebound well enough, or shoot well enough. If Vuc either shot better from the outside or was a better defender and offensive rebounder, the Bulls are much better. If DDR is a better shooter or an elite perimeter defender, again, the Bulls are a ton better. Look at the Cavs! They have basically the same eFG% and TS% percentage as the Bulls. Meaning, they were just as efficient as the Cavs with the shots they took. The difference between the Cavs top 10 offense and the Bulls? A huge discrepancy in offensive rebounding on the order of a 3.5% difference in ORB%. The Bulls had to do this in part because they are a crappy defensive team if they don't send everyone back in transition and they don't have any elite offensive rebounders (except for Drummond but he sucks at everything). If I were the Bulls, I'd trade DDR for whatever I can get in terms of draft capital or shooters. If Vuc is willing to come back for cheap, fine. If not, try a sign and trade. Maybe Portland is desperate to take either of them to appease Dame? If the Bulls could free up enough cap space (doubt), Brook Lopez is the ideal fit for the Bulls. A starting lineup of Coby-LaVine-??-Williams-Lopez is probably pretty damn good if they can fill in the ?? with a decent perimeter defender and not terrible shooter? Maybe Thybulle? It's tough right now, but the Bulls actually are not that far off from being good (not a contender, but good), but it will require savvy moves from AKME. Still no idea why they didn't go after Kennard. He seemed cheap enough and could have made a huge difference down the stretch.
Not sure why you'd put "pretty damn good" in quotation marks when that's not what was said. What was said was, "... the Bulls actually are not that far off from being good" which comes across much different than "pretty damn good" does.
Edit: MikeDC has pointed out I was missing the correct quote. I apologize.
With that being said, I'd be interested in trying Coby at point guard again. It would be a risk, but the rest of this team sucks, so why not?
I don't get why you are litigating what someone else said in their post when it's literally right there in front everyone.
He said, "A starting lineup of Coby-LaVine-??-Williams-Lopez is probably pretty damn good if they can fill in the ?? with a decent perimeter defender and not terrible shooter?
I think the point Jeremy Jet is being disingenuous about is that he wants to say Coby isn't a "PG".
My argument would simply be that Coby is more of a PG than anyone else we could conceivably get. He's consistently been the best player on the team at setting up other players when he's played that role. That's a low bar on a team where most everyone can't make a competent entry pass, but look around at the FA options and there's not a lot there.
The big gain there is just to get a guy who creates some shooting gravity into the starting lineup, but isn't going to turn it over a ton like Zach does when he has to handle a lot.
If they had Brook Lopez and Coby running the point? Yes, absolutely I do. I'm not saying I wouldn't Love to replace Coby as well, but if you put a decent shooter in at SF, you've got great shooting at every position. That would be a good offensive team.
Well, you may think that I'm being pedantic, but other than at the free-throw line, Coby is barely an above average shooter, let alone really good, let alone "great".
More to the point, though, I would argue that having a good floor general would be much more important and valuable than re-inserting Coby into the starting lineup.
I agree that volume matters, and it would be reasonable to give Coby some extra credit for that. But unlike Zach, and many other players who are better percentage shooters, Coby is generally not good at creating his own 3pt shots. So how, pray tell, would you imagine him being even an average facilitator, while at the same time shooting a high volume of 3pt shots, and making a good percentage of them, while facing starter quality defenders?
Coby has never proven to be an especially adept passer, nor driver. His FT attempt rate is also less than half the league average.
I give him credit for having improved this season, but I am skeptical that he could develop into anything like a good starting PG.
Man, I just don't see the evidence that DDR is holding us back.
I get the theory that he could hold a team back. And in fact, I think it's fair to say that in the way he wasn't Kawhi Leonard, he definitely held back the Raptors teams he was on.
But we're nowhere close to that. They were a stacked team that had been in the conference finals and second round multiple times. We're nowhere close to that point. It's not that I wouldn't trade him if I thought there was a good offer, but I've found every argument made that he's somehow a problem to be very unconvincing
Don't you think DeRozan contributes to defensive, rebounding and 3pt-shooting shortcomings? He's a great offensive player but greater last year than this year, and that trend should continue. He was certainly nursing some sort of chronic hip issue throughout the year.
His pattern of play is fairly static, and any drop-off will mean going from static high efficiency to static low efficiency, I'd want to avoid that dropoff. I'd rather have someone with Reggie Bullock's profile at the 3. Or a Jerami Grant type at the 4 with Williams moving to 3.
I agree with you on Vuc, but I'd add that he's a high-efficiency scorer that doesn't get enough touches for his talent level and adding defense at the 3 or 4 would accommodate him more effectively.
Not in an important way. What's important is the MAGNITUDE of the problem.
To give an example, DeRozan is a somewhat below average defender (not as bad as he's made out to be), but at a position where you can live with a guy being somewhat below average. It's a nitpick, small problem.
Vuc is a terrible defender, even worse than he's made out to be when you really look at advanced numbers, and at a position where the single most important thing is to be a good defender. That's a show-stopping problem that the team literally had to be built around to try and paper over.
Shooting is kind of the opposite. Vuc isn't an efficient offensive player at all. If he was a guard or forward, his shooting wouldn't be seen as a plus. As it is, it takes him out of position to do what he actually would do better, which is get offensive rebounds. It would be a nice change of pace type thing, but as bread and butter offense, it sucks.
DeRozan, on the other hand, is a weak shooter, but if we employed merely competent shooters like most teams do at the 1 and 4, it'd be something you live with pretty easily.
In a nutshell, the "problems" with DeRozan are basically trivial problems that don't hold us back. The problems with Vuc are huge limiting factors on our defense.
Holding us back was probably too strong. Also, my wording sucked. I blame the lack of coffee. I think the combination of Vooch and DDR that's giving us issues. While some of it is individual issues (both don't shoot well enough on a team that's devoid of shooting in most of its role players), I think the combo really hurts. If you put a big who can really shoot it out there instead of Vooch, I think the Bulls offense looks pretty good most of the time.
Yeah, the one deal I think might be kind of possible is something like a Vuc S&T for RoCo. The Clips have a lot of 4s (RoCo, Datum, Morris) and can't actually play them all. Vuc would actually make some sense for them as a different kind of player that gives then an alternative to Zubac (not necessarily better, but better in some situations).
The goal is to bring back Vooch, Coby and Ayo while also somehow addressing shooting, rebounding and interior defense.
I don't know the math, but do they even have enough to bring back all three of those guys? And if they do, there's no way they're also going to have the money to address the shortcomings this team has...
Coby isn't an issue. He's an RFA and we have Bird Rights. Ayo, I know the qualifying offer is around 5 mil, but I don't know if we can go over the cap to sign him, unless he was willing to sign using Early Bird rights, which only gets him a starting salary around 2.8 mil.
My guess is Ayo is gone. I love how hard he plays and love that he's from Chicago, but he doesn't offer what this team needs - shooting.
I'm afraid they re-sign Vooch to a deal that's way too big. KC Johnson offered up the possibility of a 3 year, $66 million deal which seems insane to me.
Vooch is a really solid player when put in the right situation. Unfortunately he will never be in the right situation playing alongside Zach and DeMar.
Maybe they trade DeMar, move Pat up to the 3 and then sign a really good 3 and D 4. I just don't see that happening.
Ayo is an early bird RFA (like Asik long ago). If the Bulls want to keep him, they can pay him up to the full MLE (approximately $11.75M) with standard raises.
Additionally, they retain the right to match any offer he gets from another team, like say the Spurs with their cap space. What the Spurs could is offer Ayo a four year deal, back loading the final seasons to make it difficult for the Bulls to match. Something along the lines of 4 years, $70M would be structured as $11.75M, $13M, $21.75M, $23M. The Spurs could smooth the cap hit to $17.5M per year while the Bulls being over the cap would have to pay Ayo the actual salaries being offered for the seasons. This is how the Rockets got Asik back in the day...
Bulls will be $40M under the projected luxury tax line, but they have $55M in cap holds for Vucevic and Coby (plus another ~$12M among their other FAs). So their only flexibility is in re-signing their own FAs, which is what I expect their initial wave of moves to be.
It's not necessarily a bad thing, though. They don't gain much by letting everyone go for nothing, because they'd still be capped out and only have the MLE and BAE to use.
There are enough cap holds such that renouncing only Vucevic and Coby would not get them under the salary cap.
Their active contracts will add up to ~$122M. With the salary cap projected to be $134M for the upcoming season, the maximum room they could have is ~$12M if they renounce all of their own FAs.
There's not really a point to getting under the cap by this amount because the money it opens up for free agents is basically the MLE amount. So you might as well retain your own Bird exceptions and still get the MLE anyway.
I think the way to go is to get Vucevic back for $20-ish million, get Coby back for $10M, then renounce Ayo and the two way guys. That should open up enough breathing room under the luxury tax where they could use the MLE/BAE on other free agents. This gives them some trade chips while being able to add, say, a shooter in free agency.
I'm so over Vucevic and Donovan. Fully bracing myself for them to be Chicago fixtures for another 10 years.
You have Euro-Pax to thank for that
Yeah I'm out on Vuc. He's really softer than I initially thought when we traded for him. Not just a bad defender. But also a lazy defender. Also doesn't seem receptive to criticism or instruction from teammates in game. Big missed opportunity to trade him at the deadline.
Donovan I can take or leave. This roster construction isn't doing him any favors. And I'm not certain we could land anyone better.
That pass was incredible though. Full court bullet.
I really think the move to make is to break up DeMar and Zach, but haven’t seen any evidence the team is going to do it
Absolutely should have traded demar and Vooch at the deadline. Was malpractice not to.
Blazers would be an interesting trade target .. they are hungry to get Lillard help and Bulls desperately need athletes, cap flexibility and a draft pick
Would love it if they could somehow pry Sharpe away, but they might not be willing to let go of him as great as he looked down the stretch. Simons might be all you could get.
Maybe the Knicks looking to push into the top of the East - lots of picks and young rotational guys there. Or (gulp) a sign and trade with Dallas for Kyrie? Dream would be the Lakers flop in the first round and give up on the AD/LeBron era, and Davis wants to come home to Chicago. Would love a Zach and AD pairing.
Maybe the Bulls could move DeMar + the Portland pick for Sharpe + Eubanks + Grant (for matching salary)...? Or if they insisted on keeping Sharpe, the Bulls could insist they removed the protections and send the pick to the Bulls this year.
Grant is a UFA, so it'd have to be a sign + trade, but I wouldn't hate something like that. Or like H_Vaughn mentioned, something around Simons and unprotecting this year's pick.
Demar for Anfernee Simons + unprotecting the draft pick they owe us. That would net out as Simons as a 3rd guard/microwave scorer and perhaps one of the Thompson brothers out of the draft.
And incompetence not to trade at least one. So disappointing...
I would have done the same and tanked for Wembanyama. If the price was right I would have traded Lavine, but even if we kept him the rest of the season he doesn't impact winning so let him score points and build his value back up (as he did the rest of the season and at least the first play-in game) and then trade him in the summer
How are you going to explain this, AKME? Hmmm? How?
"we were competitive"
Media: "well said, your campaign has the momentum of a runaway freight train"
9th best team in the Eastern Conference but 1st in your hearts
"My mom says I'm the most handsome boy in school"
“Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey, goodbye”
In Zach’s greatest game, he needed help from a screaming child to get the win.
Man can't wait to run it back with the same exact squad next year. Maybe Lonzo will be healthy!
Blow it up! Blow it up!
Or re-shuffle. ANYTHING!
Coby's breaking out
Dear God, please dont let that happen.
These two games gave the complete Zach Lavine Experience: some amazing clutch shots, many idiotic shots, flashes of incredible athleticism, momentary glimpses of good defense, a lot of mediocre-to-poor defense, some bad turnovers, and a lot of low basketball IQ.
I wasn't even mad after the game last night. It's just what I've come to expect from him at this point. You take the good with the bad.
They ask him (and/or he tries) to do too much. He should never have to bring the ball up the court, make an entry pass or drive and kick. Their roster construction and coaching focus should focus on feeding Lavine (and to a lesser extent, Demar) at spots where the only decision to make is drive and score or pull up and shoot.
As others have said, he should be a glorified Klay Thompson.
Why do they have him bring the ball up? I feel like it’s some trend where if you’re a star and anything but a big then you get to bring the ball up. All it does with Zach is increase the chance of something bad happening by about 200%
Sometimes just a little trouble finishing. Like this close. DeRozan has it; not sure Zach does.
And boy does Jimmy Butler have it.
This Bulls lose hurts. We all knew the season was a dud compared to the success we had last season with pretty much the same players, but the way they choked this win away was horrifying to watch and so frustrating. Such a good game back and forth, Bulls bench players balling out like Coby White and then losing the game because Miami went on what, a 15-1 run in the last 3 minutes or so to close the game out. Like seriously, that's how you let the game end when you played so well for 45 minutes of the game. So frustrating as a Bulls fan it made me want to pull my hair out. Lavine putting up 40 and then disappearing in this game is nothing unusual sadly. I think we had no choice but to pay him the max but he's not clutch in these big moment spotlight games, he's hit or miss. I don't know what Arturas is gonna do with the Bulls, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't know what direction this team will go in.
Bill Donovan, I don't even know what to say about him. His rotations are god awful and I don't think this team is coached good enough to mitigate the many flaws we seriously have. Why didn't he continue to play Drummond when he was rebounding so well?? Coby White didn't play as much as he should have, we never made any adjustment on Strus who absolutely cooked us from the 3 point line with his 31. We all know what Jimmy Butler can do, but how Billy not make any adjustments? I know he's signed long term with the Bulls but I don't see how he's here much longer if this team continues to fail. He's a player coach and obviously the front office likes him which is why he's been here longer than I think he deserves, but the Bulls are so up and down and I don't know if he's developing the young guys efficiently. Vooch is up for a contract and as much as I think we should let him walk even though he bounced back this season, you just can't. The Orlando trade was awful and you just can't let him walk without getting something. Coby I want to keep because he's proving he can be a 2 way player and wing defender that the Bulls need. I have no idea what Patrick Williams's ceiling is but I give him one more year to show me he's worth an extension.
They're in such a weird position, sitting 11th and owing their pick to Orlando if it doesn't fall in the top 4 which mathematically is possible. Regardless, what's their direction moving forward, their top 3 just don't have enough to make a deep playoff run. Lonzo Ball is whole nother topic but they gotta continue their search for a floor general because he's likely out for all of next season with his 3rd surgery. As Bulls fans, we're used to this mediocrity post Jordan era, but cmon the fans deserve better.
Is Lonzo Ball even a complex topic? Try to get some kind of injury waiver for him next year, and move forward thinking he's never going to contribute to the team. Pat Bev showed any competent, non ball dominant, defensive PG will make the rest of the starters much more competitive. There's really no need to even mention Lonzo any more except rare occasion; it's like discussing Marko or the Blazers pick
Could you imagine if they actually went for a rebuild? They could trade DeRozan and LaVine and let Vuc off the books. They could probably get some good draft capital.
Only joy I got was knowing that ownership was going to miss out on playoff revenue. Suck it long, suck it hard Jerry.
Exactly what this team and front office deserves
For as much criticism as Vuc receives from this fan base, he led the league in defensive rebounds, was top 3 in double-doubles, has a versatile offensive skillset while passable on the defensive end, is an incredibly healthy starter, and was on a reasonable contract which should have been probably extended or traded. The real issues with Vuc come from the way AK handled him; the picks he gave up in acquiring him, and the inaction towards trading or extending him last deadline while also seemingly still wanting him hence leaving yourself negotiating a new deal this offseason from a point of low leverage. There were plenty of times this year, like with Coby recently, where Vuc was cooking in the first half and then the Zach/ Demar show just didn't give him the ball in the 2nd half because they have to get theirs. Vuc was never a perfect fit in our offense or defensive systems, but he was serviceable. IMO we can easily find tall rim protectors undrafted (no one drafts those types out of college any more) or in other leagues as a good bench center to develop. Who really would be much better than Vuc for this team as a competitive starting center? I look around the league and I don't many teams excited about their centers. Seems to be a good scapegoat position.
For Billy Donovan, I spoke a ton on him at the SB Nation site (including saying swap him out last playoffs way before the extension), but yet another thing I'll say about Billy: this fan base only talks about Billy after losses. They win about as much as they lose with Billy, but when they win it's all due to Zach or Demar or Caruso etc (he just beat Nick Nurse, the in-game genius, but got no credit), but when they lose it's definitely Billy's fault. Seems odd. For what it's worth, Billy forecast during the fervor of the DeMar DeGod stretch last year that it was unsustainable and warned fans (and management?) that changes needed to happen for the team to be sustainably competitive. He told everyone it was fool's gold. Those changes never happened roster wise (until kinda Pat?). You can in hindsight argue about some rotations here and there, or his odd use of challenges, but he's probably somewhere in that top 10-15 coaches range which isn't a major point of concern to a guy like me on why this team underachieves and has hit their ceiling.
I don't think he's the primary problem, which is roster construction, but he's also not the solution to anything. Seems arbitrary to declare he's a top 10-15 coach. He's a gigantic improvement from the literally high school level coach that preceded him, but it also doesn't matter if they fire him as long as they don't hire another gym teacher like Boylen. Billy's main value seems to be as the org's mouthpiece, since AK is apparently afraid to speak on his own behalf.
I said they should have swapped him out last playoff's when they got shellacked by the Bucks, largely because "coaches don't really matter much" and they don't count against your cap, so just cycle them out to get a new voice in there. But saying he's a top 10-15 coach is not arbitrary, because what I'm saying is you are likely not going to do much better than Donovan as far as in-game adjustments or developing youth. He's also got Mo Cheeks on his bench who is another mediocre middling coach; it's not a bad staff it's just average and you'll be hard pressed to improve it. My only reasoning in switching these types of coaches out, is to switch the voice in the locker room. But even then, that voice is far secondary to say the voice of a floor leading PG who holds much more credibility with modern players. Anyway, over arching point is, blaming Donovan for the Bulls struggles, isn't really going to get you anywhere either way. And fans seem to only mention Donovan after losses
But passable on defense is kind of the issue isn't it? You really need your center to be the leader of the defense, and he's just never going to be that.
I wonder if the Wolves have soured enough on Gobert to flip him for pennies on the dollar of what they paid last off-season.
Right and it seems, as on offense, Vuc is very much sensitive to the system he plays in. He was better than just "passable" in Orlando, but as we know the Magic sucked back then so it's not like we should adjust our system to accommodate him more. This is where I look around the league and see most teams don't really love their centers much... KAT was a liability on defense so they overspent for Gobert, who they're now unhappy with. Ayton down in PHX, they were shopping him last offseason and accusing him of not stepping up in big moments for a championship team. Jakob Poetl has always seemed like nothing special when I've watched him and I wouldn't necessarily want him over Vuc. Embiid and Jokic are great, but it never transpires to much success in the playoffs.... So anyway, with a defensive center, I think you're just gonna have to sign a guy super cheap next year, and my theory is that shouldn't be that hard to do, since defensive paint centers are like RB's in the NFL and easy to grab undrafted or out of other leagues. You'll then have to pair him with Vuc to give you what you want in 2 players, sort of how you have to pair Caruso with a guy like Coby cause Caruso doesn't give you offense
Well, we’re about to find out how bad AK really is at this job.
He said at the start of the season that the goal was to win a playoff series. Instead, the team doesn’t even make the playoffs. Falling incredibly short of your goal should result in change, no?
If he gives an end of season press conference, I hope the media reminds him of this goal he set for the team. Put some pressure on him to make changes.
Let Vuc walk. Trade DeMar. Operate under the assumption that Lonzo isn’t coming back and get a new starting PG. Focus on building a team filled with three-point shooting.
Max Strus is gonna be a FA. Bring Max home!
Lol, we already know AK is bad at his job. We’re gonna be reminded again by having it shoved in our face
I’m expecting a dumpster fire press conference but let’s all keep in mind the words don’t matter. We’ll have to let his actions in the off-season speak.
Wow!
"The way we finished, it looks like we're on the right path." - AK
https://www.nba.com/bulls/bullstv/live
I just read that crap. Screw this.
yeah I'll have a whole post on this, but it was (as expected) pathetic lack of self-assessment
1. I could be surprised, but I don't think there's a good trade out there for DeMar. Nobody's floated anything that I would do if I were another team... it mostly seems to reek of wishful thinking by Bulls fans.
2. If there's an option to trade Lavine for either a Mitchell/Murray/Gobert kind of haul or Trae, I probably pull the trigger on it. I don't think that's in the cards either.
3. I'm not bringing Vuc back for any more than $1M over the MLE, and for no more than a 3 year deal with the last year NG. I'd be active in trying to S&T him for a guy like Batum, RoCo, Kyle Anderson, Taurean Prince... basically a guy with actual 4 size but some game. Then I'd use exceptions to backfill the center position. I'd kick the tires on Porzingis if the Wizards don't want to pay him but want to pretend Vuc is comparable. He's an injury risk, but he's been solid these last two years. If he'd re-sign for Vuc's current salary, I'd feel good about it. Not at the $30M he's making now. I think that's unlikely, but kind of a wild card I'd investigate.
4. My asking price for Caruso is probably like a 1st and a decent 2nd. This is a really good draft and there are several guys I'm targeting in the late first or early second that I'm confident about. This would be a great year to buy a pick or two.
5. The biggest single problem going forward is that we owe $40M in cap space to a guy who will likely never play again. I'd try to get him taken off the cap with the career ending injury exception. The Bulls don't seem to be signaling that, and if they don't, I'd hope they at least get a DPE, which is another $10M player to add.
6.A The second biggest problem with the team is that we've got this weird, inverted roster that revolves around Vuc. Good offense/Bad defense center + "complementing" Bad offense/Good defense guards is a losing recipe. Unless Vuc is back at a really big discount, I'd just start throwing a bunch of guys at the problem for cheap (Landale, Reid, Hartenstein, Gafford, Biyombo, Plumlee, Bamba, Goga, etc).
6.B. And then go for guys who can shoot elsewhere. Retain Coby, and hopefully bring in a couple guys on top that can shoot. Good teams don't just have one or two guys, they've got a bunch. The Bulls need to prioritize shooting.
I looked at the top 10 offensive teams, and I think it's Vuc and DDR holding us back. I'm not a huge Zach fan, but he fits well on the right team. Vuc and DDR both don't defend well enough, rebound well enough, or shoot well enough. If Vuc either shot better from the outside or was a better defender and offensive rebounder, the Bulls are much better. If DDR is a better shooter or an elite perimeter defender, again, the Bulls are a ton better. Look at the Cavs! They have basically the same eFG% and TS% percentage as the Bulls. Meaning, they were just as efficient as the Cavs with the shots they took. The difference between the Cavs top 10 offense and the Bulls? A huge discrepancy in offensive rebounding on the order of a 3.5% difference in ORB%. The Bulls had to do this in part because they are a crappy defensive team if they don't send everyone back in transition and they don't have any elite offensive rebounders (except for Drummond but he sucks at everything). If I were the Bulls, I'd trade DDR for whatever I can get in terms of draft capital or shooters. If Vuc is willing to come back for cheap, fine. If not, try a sign and trade. Maybe Portland is desperate to take either of them to appease Dame? If the Bulls could free up enough cap space (doubt), Brook Lopez is the ideal fit for the Bulls. A starting lineup of Coby-LaVine-??-Williams-Lopez is probably pretty damn good if they can fill in the ?? with a decent perimeter defender and not terrible shooter? Maybe Thybulle? It's tough right now, but the Bulls actually are not that far off from being good (not a contender, but good), but it will require savvy moves from AKME. Still no idea why they didn't go after Kennard. He seemed cheap enough and could have made a huge difference down the stretch.
Wait – you think the team would be "pretty damn good" without a PG again?
Not sure why you'd put "pretty damn good" in quotation marks when that's not what was said. What was said was, "... the Bulls actually are not that far off from being good" which comes across much different than "pretty damn good" does.
Edit: MikeDC has pointed out I was missing the correct quote. I apologize.
With that being said, I'd be interested in trying Coby at point guard again. It would be a risk, but the rest of this team sucks, so why not?
I don't get why you are litigating what someone else said in their post when it's literally right there in front everyone.
He said, "A starting lineup of Coby-LaVine-??-Williams-Lopez is probably pretty damn good if they can fill in the ?? with a decent perimeter defender and not terrible shooter?
Agree or disagree, that's what he said.
That's my bad. I was reading further in the comment and thought that's what was being referenced. I'll edit my comment and admit my mistake.
I think the point Jeremy Jet is being disingenuous about is that he wants to say Coby isn't a "PG".
My argument would simply be that Coby is more of a PG than anyone else we could conceivably get. He's consistently been the best player on the team at setting up other players when he's played that role. That's a low bar on a team where most everyone can't make a competent entry pass, but look around at the FA options and there's not a lot there.
The big gain there is just to get a guy who creates some shooting gravity into the starting lineup, but isn't going to turn it over a ton like Zach does when he has to handle a lot.
If they had Brook Lopez and Coby running the point? Yes, absolutely I do. I'm not saying I wouldn't Love to replace Coby as well, but if you put a decent shooter in at SF, you've got great shooting at every position. That would be a good offensive team.
Well, you may think that I'm being pedantic, but other than at the free-throw line, Coby is barely an above average shooter, let alone really good, let alone "great".
More to the point, though, I would argue that having a good floor general would be much more important and valuable than re-inserting Coby into the starting lineup.
Fair enough, apparently you are going to be picky about wording. Let's say you put an above average shooter in there at the 3.
Coby - 37.2% on 7.2 3pa/36
LaVine - 37.5% on 7.1 3pa/36 (remember, Zach also shot way better after he had fully recovered)
Wing - Let's say Donte DiVincenzo as a comparison 39.7% on 7.2 3PA per 36
PF - Williams - 41.5% on 4.1 3pa/36
C - Lopez 37.4% on 5.5 3pa/36
Are you seriously saying that's not great shooting? Coby's volume matters. Only 39 NBA players made over 37% on over 7 3pa/36 this season.
I agree that volume matters, and it would be reasonable to give Coby some extra credit for that. But unlike Zach, and many other players who are better percentage shooters, Coby is generally not good at creating his own 3pt shots. So how, pray tell, would you imagine him being even an average facilitator, while at the same time shooting a high volume of 3pt shots, and making a good percentage of them, while facing starter quality defenders?
Coby has never proven to be an especially adept passer, nor driver. His FT attempt rate is also less than half the league average.
I give him credit for having improved this season, but I am skeptical that he could develop into anything like a good starting PG.
Man, I just don't see the evidence that DDR is holding us back.
I get the theory that he could hold a team back. And in fact, I think it's fair to say that in the way he wasn't Kawhi Leonard, he definitely held back the Raptors teams he was on.
But we're nowhere close to that. They were a stacked team that had been in the conference finals and second round multiple times. We're nowhere close to that point. It's not that I wouldn't trade him if I thought there was a good offer, but I've found every argument made that he's somehow a problem to be very unconvincing
Don't you think DeRozan contributes to defensive, rebounding and 3pt-shooting shortcomings? He's a great offensive player but greater last year than this year, and that trend should continue. He was certainly nursing some sort of chronic hip issue throughout the year.
His pattern of play is fairly static, and any drop-off will mean going from static high efficiency to static low efficiency, I'd want to avoid that dropoff. I'd rather have someone with Reggie Bullock's profile at the 3. Or a Jerami Grant type at the 4 with Williams moving to 3.
I agree with you on Vuc, but I'd add that he's a high-efficiency scorer that doesn't get enough touches for his talent level and adding defense at the 3 or 4 would accommodate him more effectively.
Not in an important way. What's important is the MAGNITUDE of the problem.
To give an example, DeRozan is a somewhat below average defender (not as bad as he's made out to be), but at a position where you can live with a guy being somewhat below average. It's a nitpick, small problem.
Vuc is a terrible defender, even worse than he's made out to be when you really look at advanced numbers, and at a position where the single most important thing is to be a good defender. That's a show-stopping problem that the team literally had to be built around to try and paper over.
Shooting is kind of the opposite. Vuc isn't an efficient offensive player at all. If he was a guard or forward, his shooting wouldn't be seen as a plus. As it is, it takes him out of position to do what he actually would do better, which is get offensive rebounds. It would be a nice change of pace type thing, but as bread and butter offense, it sucks.
DeRozan, on the other hand, is a weak shooter, but if we employed merely competent shooters like most teams do at the 1 and 4, it'd be something you live with pretty easily.
In a nutshell, the "problems" with DeRozan are basically trivial problems that don't hold us back. The problems with Vuc are huge limiting factors on our defense.
Holding us back was probably too strong. Also, my wording sucked. I blame the lack of coffee. I think the combination of Vooch and DDR that's giving us issues. While some of it is individual issues (both don't shoot well enough on a team that's devoid of shooting in most of its role players), I think the combo really hurts. If you put a big who can really shoot it out there instead of Vooch, I think the Bulls offense looks pretty good most of the time.
Yeah, the one deal I think might be kind of possible is something like a Vuc S&T for RoCo. The Clips have a lot of 4s (RoCo, Datum, Morris) and can't actually play them all. Vuc would actually make some sense for them as a different kind of player that gives then an alternative to Zubac (not necessarily better, but better in some situations).
That would be an unbelievable deal for the Bulls.
My summary of AK's press conference.
The goal is to bring back Vooch, Coby and Ayo while also somehow addressing shooting, rebounding and interior defense.
I don't know the math, but do they even have enough to bring back all three of those guys? And if they do, there's no way they're also going to have the money to address the shortcomings this team has...
Coby isn't an issue. He's an RFA and we have Bird Rights. Ayo, I know the qualifying offer is around 5 mil, but I don't know if we can go over the cap to sign him, unless he was willing to sign using Early Bird rights, which only gets him a starting salary around 2.8 mil.
My guess is Ayo is gone. I love how hard he plays and love that he's from Chicago, but he doesn't offer what this team needs - shooting.
I'm afraid they re-sign Vooch to a deal that's way too big. KC Johnson offered up the possibility of a 3 year, $66 million deal which seems insane to me.
Vooch is a really solid player when put in the right situation. Unfortunately he will never be in the right situation playing alongside Zach and DeMar.
Maybe they trade DeMar, move Pat up to the 3 and then sign a really good 3 and D 4. I just don't see that happening.
Ayo is an early bird RFA (like Asik long ago). If the Bulls want to keep him, they can pay him up to the full MLE (approximately $11.75M) with standard raises.
Additionally, they retain the right to match any offer he gets from another team, like say the Spurs with their cap space. What the Spurs could is offer Ayo a four year deal, back loading the final seasons to make it difficult for the Bulls to match. Something along the lines of 4 years, $70M would be structured as $11.75M, $13M, $21.75M, $23M. The Spurs could smooth the cap hit to $17.5M per year while the Bulls being over the cap would have to pay Ayo the actual salaries being offered for the seasons. This is how the Rockets got Asik back in the day...
Bulls will be $40M under the projected luxury tax line, but they have $55M in cap holds for Vucevic and Coby (plus another ~$12M among their other FAs). So their only flexibility is in re-signing their own FAs, which is what I expect their initial wave of moves to be.
It's not necessarily a bad thing, though. They don't gain much by letting everyone go for nothing, because they'd still be capped out and only have the MLE and BAE to use.
Curious, would they, at least theoretically, be able to renounce Vuc and Coby, thus landing with around $35M in cap room?
There are enough cap holds such that renouncing only Vucevic and Coby would not get them under the salary cap.
Their active contracts will add up to ~$122M. With the salary cap projected to be $134M for the upcoming season, the maximum room they could have is ~$12M if they renounce all of their own FAs.
There's not really a point to getting under the cap by this amount because the money it opens up for free agents is basically the MLE amount. So you might as well retain your own Bird exceptions and still get the MLE anyway.
I think the way to go is to get Vucevic back for $20-ish million, get Coby back for $10M, then renounce Ayo and the two way guys. That should open up enough breathing room under the luxury tax where they could use the MLE/BAE on other free agents. This gives them some trade chips while being able to add, say, a shooter in free agency.
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.
Setting money aside, I'm not sure how they have the minutes to address shooting, rebounding, and interior defense if they bring those guys back.
Who you guys got in the Heat/Clippers finals?