AK will praise how the these other players stepped up due to injury absences and they played much better after the injuries, yet also lament the injuries as harmful
Question for you, yfbb. It's sort of off topic, but you mentioning DeRozan's clutch-ness sort of led me down a rabbit hole. Anyway, I know you've been very vocal in your support of DeMar and all he's done in Chicago (can't blame you). What would your thoughts be if he chose to stay in Chicago this summer?
I think I'd lose a little respect for him. In my mind, the greatest players care about winning over everything else. It's not like DeMar hasn't had a great career where he's put up impressive numbers and made a ton of money. Him choosing more money and being the "alpha" of a mediocre team over the chance to compete for a championship or at least a serious playoff run, especially when those things have eluded him so far in his career, would really bring me to question his commitment to winning, and to a greater extent, his commitment to being great.
Owners and players are very different. Owners go into the luxury tax to try to win knowing that it could hurt their profits, especially if they don't win.
DeMar wouldn't be signing a vet minimum deal with a contender. It would just be less than he'd sign in Chicago. He'd still be making millions.
Sure, I completely agree with you there. And putting the spotlight on Jerry might be the better bet, but my question was about a player and if his choices show where his loyalties lie.
Yes, DeMar clearly cares more about winning than Jerry. That's obvious. But does he care more about winning than Zach? That's a better comparison since they're both basketball players. For all of Zach's faults, he was the first to say he wanted out because he was tired of playing for an organization that doesn't care about winning.
I'm not trying to say Zach cares more about winning than DeMar does. I certainly don't think that. My point is just that I may find it a tough pill to swallow if DeMar chooses to stay on a mediocre team that doesn't care about winning because it affords him more money and a higher status on the team.
The man has made more than a quarter of a billion dollars. He's going to be fine financially. His great grandchildren will likely be fine financially. If he cares more about winning and chasing championships than money or place on a team, at what point does he cross the line of "I've made enough money in my career; now I want to chase success"?
He'll be 35 by the start of next season. Yes, he has a game that should age well and he's proven to be a very healthy player so I could certainly see him playing five more seasons. But I'd imagine there's a difference between being on a contending team as a legitimate contributor and being on a contending team as a vet minimum guy playing 10 minutes a night because you're 39 years old.
Edit: Maybe I should have clarified my original comment better. I don't doubt that DeMar cares about winning. I'm more curious what peoples' thoughts are on when someone reaches the point of "Okay, now I need to start chasing championships if I want to be known as a winning player."
Can't argue too much with that. I should clarify that I'm not going to suddenly hate DeMar if he chooses to re-sign with the Bulls. I think I'll just be a little disappointed.
Him choosing more money and being the "alpha" of a mediocre team over the chance to compete for a championship or at least a serious playoff run, especially when those things have eluded him so far in his career, would really bring me to question his commitment to winning, and to a greater extent, his commitment to being great.
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This seems completely arbitrary to me. Why don't we excoriate Kevin Durant for not taking a little less than the max? How about Kyrie Irving? He actually did... are we gonna hold him up as some kind of paragon of "commitment to being great"?
I guess I'm not following this argument. Are we supposed to compare DeMar's salary to the salary of every other player in the league?
Also, both of those guys have not only won rings, but they've been chasing them for years now. Exactly what I'm questioning with DeMar.
To be clear, I was not a fan of KD leaving his team for the team that beat him. Especially since he was considered a top two or three player in the league at the time.
But DeMar is not that good and he's not as young as KD was. If he wants to chase a ring, time is running out for him to be able to do it while being an integral part of that team.
My argument is that saying you'd "lose respect" for a player for not taking a discount to go to a contender is a really bad take, and that you shouldn't use such a thing as your basis for respecting players at all. Not one bit.
Why? Well, probably for a lot of reasons besides these, but:
1. We have little certainty on what guys are offered, and you're not drawing any kind of clear line to make a judgement. It's ok with you if he stays in Chicago for $25M if his only other option is the Lakers for $5M? But not if the Lakers offer $20M? Then he should sign with the Lakers or you'll lose respect for him? What's the minimum amount of money he has to leave on the table before it's "OK" by you? Is that same standard applied to other guys? You pushed back because I mentioned KD, but you were silent on Kyrie. There are probably dozens of comparable guys.
I don't need to compare DeMar's salary to everyone else in the league. But you do, because you are the one who is proposing that salary and contract choice are meaningful factors in how you determine how respectable a guy is. If you're saying you don't actually know those things, then maybe it's not the right basis for making that kind of comparison.
2. The truth is, what you're asking for is probably a literal impossibility. What does it mean to be a "legitimate" contributor on a "serious" team? Just like there's no clear line of "how much money is too much to leave on the table" there are no right answer. It's all just reduces to somebody's opinion. Which means it's something we probably shouldn't consider as a basis for assigning "respect".
3. I just don't buy in to the whole ring-chasing, championship as the only goal for a player or anyone to show a commitment to greatness. Like, most players never with a championship, and even if DeMar is like, the 6th man on a Lakers championship with 40 year old Lebron next year, I don't see how that changes his standing much. Not compared to the rest of his career and the fact that the guys is beloved around the league and a genuine advocate for stuff outside of sports.
People should think of NBA players more like they'd think of actors. There's lots of great actors that are never going to win an Oscar or a Tony. But it makes no sense for an actor to say, something like "I need to cement my commitment to being the best actor" by taking a lesser role in this prestigious Indie flick that may win best picture". If the chance comes along, that's great, but if you're, like, the leading actor in a decent off-broadway show and some TV, and you've made a great career out of it, that's ok.
Maybe that's my problem then. I was looking for opinions on how people would feel if DeMar chose to stay in Chicago instead of moving to a better team with greater aspirations. Based on your comment, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like you're not a fan of having such opinions. There's nothing wrong with that, but I also don't see anything wrong with having those opinions.
Should DeMar care if I'm a little disappointed if he chooses to stay in Chicago? Nope, he definitely shouldn't. Does that mean I can't still be disappointed? Also no.
Maybe I shouldn't have used the words "lose respect". More accurately, I would be disappointed if DeMar stayed in Chicago. I've become a fan of his during his time here and I want him to have more success than what he'll have in Chicago. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Just like there's not technically anything wrong with him deciding to stay here.
I clarified this with Granvillator below but I'll add it to this too. It's not that I don't think DeMar cares about winning. It's more that I think most players get to a point in their careers where they decide they want to pursue winning above all else, including money. There obviously isn't a one-size-fits-all answer for every player. I was just curious what people think that is for DeMar. When do people think he should decide it's time to focus on winning more than anything else?
Or maybe he never does. Maybe he's okay with where he's at. If that's the case, good for him. It'll just be a little disappointing to me and ultimately that's okay. It's the same thing with AC. I love the guy and love the way he plays. I would have loved to have him on the team during the Thibs years. But he deserves more than what this organization is willing to give, so I'd rather see him find success somewhere else.
35 year old star playing 40 minutes a night and 6’0 guard leading the league in clutch points: “i run red lights all the time and nothing bad has happened to me”
Skinny-ass John Collins bullying Vooch last night was great. Grabbing an assistant coach's throat wasn't so great. I guess I don't know if rules are any different regarding confrontations between players and opposing teams' coaches, but that seemed like an immediate rejection to me. And how did Fleming get a technical for trying to keep Collins from attack both himself and his players?
AK is breaking the league 'order'. Caruso should be on the Warriors who would've won this game and a more secure playoff position as a franchise actually trying to be a contender.
AK already has this four game win streak written down for his post season press conference as proof that not making any moves at the deadline was the correct decision.
That was inevitable, he was always going to find something. The only failure he can't spin (to his boss, not us) is if there is no postseason home game.
While Atlanta does seem to be playing better without Trae (what a surprise!), I think this Bulls team is going to play their asses off to finish the season and will likely still take home the 9th seed. One post season home game is probably enough for AK to claim the entire season was a success.
it is kinda crazy how the lonzo news turned around though. first it was like "well actually he's not even running yet" to "he's cleared for advanced basketball activities"
Don't forget, we did a lot of it without Zach, Pat, and Lonzo. When those three guys definitely come back we'll be in the playoffs for real!
AK will praise how the these other players stepped up due to injury absences and they played much better after the injuries, yet also lament the injuries as harmful
Question for you, yfbb. It's sort of off topic, but you mentioning DeRozan's clutch-ness sort of led me down a rabbit hole. Anyway, I know you've been very vocal in your support of DeMar and all he's done in Chicago (can't blame you). What would your thoughts be if he chose to stay in Chicago this summer?
I think I'd lose a little respect for him. In my mind, the greatest players care about winning over everything else. It's not like DeMar hasn't had a great career where he's put up impressive numbers and made a ton of money. Him choosing more money and being the "alpha" of a mediocre team over the chance to compete for a championship or at least a serious playoff run, especially when those things have eluded him so far in his career, would really bring me to question his commitment to winning, and to a greater extent, his commitment to being great.
Owners and players are very different. Owners go into the luxury tax to try to win knowing that it could hurt their profits, especially if they don't win.
DeMar wouldn't be signing a vet minimum deal with a contender. It would just be less than he'd sign in Chicago. He'd still be making millions.
Sure, I completely agree with you there. And putting the spotlight on Jerry might be the better bet, but my question was about a player and if his choices show where his loyalties lie.
Yes, DeMar clearly cares more about winning than Jerry. That's obvious. But does he care more about winning than Zach? That's a better comparison since they're both basketball players. For all of Zach's faults, he was the first to say he wanted out because he was tired of playing for an organization that doesn't care about winning.
I'm not trying to say Zach cares more about winning than DeMar does. I certainly don't think that. My point is just that I may find it a tough pill to swallow if DeMar chooses to stay on a mediocre team that doesn't care about winning because it affords him more money and a higher status on the team.
The man has made more than a quarter of a billion dollars. He's going to be fine financially. His great grandchildren will likely be fine financially. If he cares more about winning and chasing championships than money or place on a team, at what point does he cross the line of "I've made enough money in my career; now I want to chase success"?
He'll be 35 by the start of next season. Yes, he has a game that should age well and he's proven to be a very healthy player so I could certainly see him playing five more seasons. But I'd imagine there's a difference between being on a contending team as a legitimate contributor and being on a contending team as a vet minimum guy playing 10 minutes a night because you're 39 years old.
Edit: Maybe I should have clarified my original comment better. I don't doubt that DeMar cares about winning. I'm more curious what peoples' thoughts are on when someone reaches the point of "Okay, now I need to start chasing championships if I want to be known as a winning player."
he's had serious playoff runs early in his career. I'd bet he has the pride (and may be accurate) to think he doesn't need to ring-chase yet.
And honestly it's better business for him to get the money from the dumb/bad team and then later get traded to the contender
Can't argue too much with that. I should clarify that I'm not going to suddenly hate DeMar if he chooses to re-sign with the Bulls. I think I'll just be a little disappointed.
So a bad burp that tastes like vomit vs actually puking?
He's got a wife and kids too. Ask Dame what late career title chasing can do to quality of life.
Not sure one example is a great argument. What about all the vets who have gone to California or Miami to chase titles?
>
Him choosing more money and being the "alpha" of a mediocre team over the chance to compete for a championship or at least a serious playoff run, especially when those things have eluded him so far in his career, would really bring me to question his commitment to winning, and to a greater extent, his commitment to being great.
<
This seems completely arbitrary to me. Why don't we excoriate Kevin Durant for not taking a little less than the max? How about Kyrie Irving? He actually did... are we gonna hold him up as some kind of paragon of "commitment to being great"?
I guess I'm not following this argument. Are we supposed to compare DeMar's salary to the salary of every other player in the league?
Also, both of those guys have not only won rings, but they've been chasing them for years now. Exactly what I'm questioning with DeMar.
To be clear, I was not a fan of KD leaving his team for the team that beat him. Especially since he was considered a top two or three player in the league at the time.
But DeMar is not that good and he's not as young as KD was. If he wants to chase a ring, time is running out for him to be able to do it while being an integral part of that team.
My argument is that saying you'd "lose respect" for a player for not taking a discount to go to a contender is a really bad take, and that you shouldn't use such a thing as your basis for respecting players at all. Not one bit.
Why? Well, probably for a lot of reasons besides these, but:
1. We have little certainty on what guys are offered, and you're not drawing any kind of clear line to make a judgement. It's ok with you if he stays in Chicago for $25M if his only other option is the Lakers for $5M? But not if the Lakers offer $20M? Then he should sign with the Lakers or you'll lose respect for him? What's the minimum amount of money he has to leave on the table before it's "OK" by you? Is that same standard applied to other guys? You pushed back because I mentioned KD, but you were silent on Kyrie. There are probably dozens of comparable guys.
I don't need to compare DeMar's salary to everyone else in the league. But you do, because you are the one who is proposing that salary and contract choice are meaningful factors in how you determine how respectable a guy is. If you're saying you don't actually know those things, then maybe it's not the right basis for making that kind of comparison.
2. The truth is, what you're asking for is probably a literal impossibility. What does it mean to be a "legitimate" contributor on a "serious" team? Just like there's no clear line of "how much money is too much to leave on the table" there are no right answer. It's all just reduces to somebody's opinion. Which means it's something we probably shouldn't consider as a basis for assigning "respect".
3. I just don't buy in to the whole ring-chasing, championship as the only goal for a player or anyone to show a commitment to greatness. Like, most players never with a championship, and even if DeMar is like, the 6th man on a Lakers championship with 40 year old Lebron next year, I don't see how that changes his standing much. Not compared to the rest of his career and the fact that the guys is beloved around the league and a genuine advocate for stuff outside of sports.
People should think of NBA players more like they'd think of actors. There's lots of great actors that are never going to win an Oscar or a Tony. But it makes no sense for an actor to say, something like "I need to cement my commitment to being the best actor" by taking a lesser role in this prestigious Indie flick that may win best picture". If the chance comes along, that's great, but if you're, like, the leading actor in a decent off-broadway show and some TV, and you've made a great career out of it, that's ok.
Maybe that's my problem then. I was looking for opinions on how people would feel if DeMar chose to stay in Chicago instead of moving to a better team with greater aspirations. Based on your comment, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like you're not a fan of having such opinions. There's nothing wrong with that, but I also don't see anything wrong with having those opinions.
Should DeMar care if I'm a little disappointed if he chooses to stay in Chicago? Nope, he definitely shouldn't. Does that mean I can't still be disappointed? Also no.
Maybe I shouldn't have used the words "lose respect". More accurately, I would be disappointed if DeMar stayed in Chicago. I've become a fan of his during his time here and I want him to have more success than what he'll have in Chicago. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Just like there's not technically anything wrong with him deciding to stay here.
I clarified this with Granvillator below but I'll add it to this too. It's not that I don't think DeMar cares about winning. It's more that I think most players get to a point in their careers where they decide they want to pursue winning above all else, including money. There obviously isn't a one-size-fits-all answer for every player. I was just curious what people think that is for DeMar. When do people think he should decide it's time to focus on winning more than anything else?
Or maybe he never does. Maybe he's okay with where he's at. If that's the case, good for him. It'll just be a little disappointing to me and ultimately that's okay. It's the same thing with AC. I love the guy and love the way he plays. I would have loved to have him on the team during the Thibs years. But he deserves more than what this organization is willing to give, so I'd rather see him find success somewhere else.
35 year old star playing 40 minutes a night and 6’0 guard leading the league in clutch points: “i run red lights all the time and nothing bad has happened to me”
Don't you put that evil on me, Ricky Bobby!
Jazz roster snapshot. They're Ainge-ing
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIB11NwagAAYu54.png
And it's Sensabaugh that's gonna be the random player of the night to light up the Bulls.
younger than Dalen Terry, who is not even with the team (personal reasons) after being removed from the rotation again
eh, last year it was ... Ochai Agbaji going 7 fer 7. Jazz always have some youngster ready to get their career high vs the Bulls.
that's an interesting case too because the Jazz cut bait on Agbaji at the deadline, packaged with Olynyk and got a 1st round pick
would AK have ever even considered trading Drummond+Terry?
Cheaper to be clutch than good indeed.
Cruel to be kind
Skinny-ass John Collins bullying Vooch last night was great. Grabbing an assistant coach's throat wasn't so great. I guess I don't know if rules are any different regarding confrontations between players and opposing teams' coaches, but that seemed like an immediate rejection to me. And how did Fleming get a technical for trying to keep Collins from attack both himself and his players?
I only turned on the game at the time that happened and I had the same thought. Couldn't believe he didn't get ejected for that move.
Bulls so klutch!!! We’re definitely signing team Bron the summer…
Hawks actually took advantage of their own schedule luck, beat the Cavs who were on a back to back and Mitchell+Mobley out #GoHawks #DriveFor9
roster snapshot for Warriors, they have...literally no injury report?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIGuC2qaQAAWZgF.png
Cheaper to be clutch than good indeed.
AK is breaking the league 'order'. Caruso should be on the Warriors who would've won this game and a more secure playoff position as a franchise actually trying to be a contender.
Per usual I blame conferences
AK already has this four game win streak written down for his post season press conference as proof that not making any moves at the deadline was the correct decision.
That was inevitable, he was always going to find something. The only failure he can't spin (to his boss, not us) is if there is no postseason home game.
While Atlanta does seem to be playing better without Trae (what a surprise!), I think this Bulls team is going to play their asses off to finish the season and will likely still take home the 9th seed. One post season home game is probably enough for AK to claim the entire season was a success.
3 game win streak for #MyHawks
https://allchgo.com/chgo-bulls-podcast-were-we-wrong-about-arturas-karnisovas-plan-for-chicago-bulls/
Noooo, what? Nonono
Why can't we have Ant?
Classic rage bait, got me
Like why can’t we talk about the bulls being dire coming out of half time? But we get a lonzo update a week.
it is kinda crazy how the lonzo news turned around though. first it was like "well actually he's not even running yet" to "he's cleared for advanced basketball activities"