I would want Thybulle or Williams (or anyone else), but who would you trade for Brogdon?
Lonzo, Dalen Terry, and extend their protections to Top 20 (big whoop) on their pick for Brogdon? Would they do that to get out of his salary? Do they care about that?
I think there's a decent chance any one of us could become the Bulls VP when AK's tenure ends in 2040 or whatever. Here's how:
Resume - doesn't matter, you don't need to have accomplished anything. Just say you were once in a room with a guy who knew a guy who went to high school with the dude who, I dunno, scouted Wemby for the Spurs.
The interview - say you don't wanna rock the boat. Keep operating costs low. You have good communication skills and still keep a land line phone. Basketball vision includes trimming the fat off the scouting department, finding a cheaper medical provider, and of course keeping team salary down.
Salary negotiation - say you'll do the job for $250-300K.
This should be the playbook for having a decades-long tenure in a Reinsdorf front office.
It’s just a filler talking point for the interview because outright saying “I’m as good as anyone at signing minimum salary players and losing every trade” is too on the nose.
I just can't get over how asinine the "win more games against good teams" objective is. Like, you did not win more games in total last year. So if you won more against good teams, that means you won less against bad ones. Was that part of the objective?
These are the goals of a franchise that aspires to be "the low seed that no one wants to play". You know, a team with the mystical ability to win close games and games against good opponents but somehow not that many games in general. This would literally make more sense if they were like "ok, so going forward, the FO will be devoted practitioners of ancient shamanic magic." That would be relatively reassuring. It would at least offer a mechanism for how they plan to achieve occult objectives.
I think he just feels really bad about the 2021-22 season where they lost every game to the top 4 teams (or something similarly bad) and were blown out on national TV, and/or at home, multiple times. Like that's the kind of thing that unnecessarily gets up to ownership level. So AK can't say his team is meaningfully better but he can say to the 'dorfs it FEELS better
but it's not even a consistent metric. He'll also just cite regular record when it suits him. They went 14-9 after the all-star break, but with a chance to get a higher seed they lost by double digits to Sixers, Lakers, Clippers, Bucks, Hawks
"Unless there’s a big discount agreed to that makes DeMar more attractive as a trade asset..."
Well, supposedly Vooch took a "home town" discount that will result in him earning slightly less per year than he was earning on his previous contract he signed as an All-Star in Orlando. So I'm sure a discount for DeMar's services would be like three more years at $35 million a year instead of $40 million or something like that. What a steal...
Acne and Donny suck. Not sure how they stay below the cap next year. Devin Vassell just signed for 30+M per year. If PW blows up (eh, probably won’t?) and Demar is already resigned, might need to waive/stretch Ball to have any space…
Demarr should be next Bulls chief, his old man mentoring + ass kissing to get a new contract is perfectly played. He SHOULD be spending his time shooting threes, but knows better what gets you a new contract around here.
How can you be so certain? With how long they've already held onto him, as well as the fact that they seem to be loyal to their players over what the team actually needs, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Lonzo suiting up next year to come off the bench as a tenth man because he's technically healthy, albeit a shell of himself.
Yeah no one of his former ability level has ever gotten this procedure. I hope he proves everyone wrong and plays, sure - but moreover just as a human being I hope it has worked to get rid of all the pain he had.
Completely agree! I'd love to see him suit up and be back at a high level, but I'd also be happy just knowing he doesn't have that pain anymore even if his basketball career is basically over.
With Vuc, his phrasing may have been ego but I think the point about using him more as a creator makes sense. He's not proto-Jokic but he certainly has the passing skills to be more effective in that role.
there was even more from Vuc, I didn't see it until now because I think Cowley was the only one who published it:
***
"for me I can understand [fan negativity] because people expect what I was doing in Orlando. But I don’t have that same role, I’m not utilized the same way, don’t have the same amount of touches or the touches where I was getting previously.
“Out of the three of us (Vucevic, DeMar DeRozan and Zach LaVine) I’m the one that has sacrificed the most from an individual game. That’s why I feel like the people that have been critical of me really don’t understand how basketball works, what it takes for us to function as a group."
It's clear he wishes it was Orlando Vuc, where the team was a bottom-10 offense featuring him in the post but he got an All-Star selection
And it just goes against what AK and Donovan said earlier in the day in the style of play they want. If anything it's asking Vuc to do even less, and he's saying he talked to them about doing more. Maybe he quickly got over it when seeing the salary offer.
This has always been my problem with Vooch. It's clear his top goal isn't winning. There are way too many games every year where he just doesn't seem to want to even be there. Why would you want to keep a guy like that around? Especially since it's not like he's ridiculously talented and is still one of the best players in the league even if he doesn't care.
I kind of disagree here. Of the so-called big 3, Vuc is the only one who's tried to modify his game to fit what the team needed, shooting 3s he isn't comfortable with, being the sole defensive post presence, taking majority of the fan backlash. And it's all been for naught. His phrasing in the presser made it clear he's done with sacrificing his stats for a team that isn't winning. More reason to believe AKME should have traded him last deadline
I don't really disagree with you. He has sacrificed more than Zach or DeMar, but he's also worse than Zach and DeMar so he's naturally going to be asked to sacrifice more.
He's a center in the 2020s. If you don't shoot threes, you better be an amazing post defender. Sadly he's not amazing at either, but he has at least tried to improve in both areas (sacrificed, if you will).
I don't think him sacrificing necessarily means he's a winner though. He was on bad Orlando teams and seemed happy to be the offensive focal point, even if it meant being a first round exit annually.
It's not like he asked to be traded to Chicago. He has sacrificed here because he's had no other choice. He randomly doesn't show up to games or checks out midway through. Not a winning mentality. Do you see a guy like Caruso doing that?
Still not sure why AKME wanted to keep him around. He doesn't fit this team and as you say, he should have been traded last deadline.
I mean I definitely don't see why they kept him. Totally weird choice.
These comments read to me like Boozer's complaints about playing in the 4th - the change was fine when the team was doing well, but when it's clear shit isn't working the player questions the sacrifice (note that I am not saying that involving him more would have the desired effect though).
Sure, I don't blame Vooch at all. He's been used terribly on the Bulls. I don't think that and whether he's a winner or not are mutually exclusive though.
I don't disagree. I was just saying it was the same sort of feeling I got. Just sort of that I get that a guy looks at the losing and thinks he can help fix it. Even if he's wrong.
Because Orlando Vuc was good for Vuc. The bulls Vuc isn't good for Vuc or for the Bulls. I'm not a huge fan of Vuc at all, but feel fans are pointing the "not-a-winner" gun at vuc instead of a front office and head coach that brought him here into a position-to-fail. I firmly believe 100% of our disdain for the Bulls should be pointed at the front office, I'm well past talking about what players aren't good on this team when the front office has done nothing to help them succeed or make changes.
agreed. same with paw, he has been put in a terrible position. that doesn't mean he'd be great or would have for sure succeeded elsewhere, it just seems like they've put him in a bad position and wonder why he doesn't do better.
I agree about the front office. I think I just feel like you can believe the front office hasn't done Vooch any favors while also believing Vooch doesn't seem to be a winner at heart.
It's not much disdain because I don't really think much about Vuc at all. He's not that important. Or at least he shouldn't be. But that's why his comments are notable bc he thinks he is (and Bulls pay him like he is).
this isn't totally wrong, but it's definitely over emphasizing Vuc. Despite being a member of the 'big 3', he is not 'one of three elite scorers on the Bulls'
also it's an obvious problem where it's known but not addressed even though he played every game last season, and he says "I don't know" as to why this is now an emphasis
I think the "battle for the starting pg spot" is just so stupid especially since the bulls are claiming problem numero uno is chemistry and cohesion. Like how does having a civil war make things better exactly?
Whats more annoying is that the bulls could have been more active in pursuing either Lillard or harden (yes... That harden, who is still a better pg than anyone we have healthy) or in the secondary assets of jrue or brogdan.
In other words instead of having this great battle of mediocrity, we could have just made a trade and defined roles before training camp so that they could work on how to actually improve rather than trying to run it back with 50% more efficient towel waving.
Yeah that just makes all the PG's seem like obvious lesser importance players to make them do that. We need the PG to basically be the leader to bring out the best in this team; they should pick one early and encourage him to lead aggressively. Last thing you want is a guy who just brings the ball up the court and quickly passes it off to the Big 3 never to be seen again on that possession
I might disagree if I knew what these guys really meant by talking about "playing like a team" and all that stuff.
Last year, the Bulls said there was competition, but then two obviously inferior players "won" and kept the jobs over players other guys who were clearly better. Ayo is a worse player than both Caruso and Coby. And, both of those guys brought something the starters desperately needed. Pat really was gifted the job over Javonte and DJJ.
That kinds of entitlement sets a tone for what you saw last season (Zach especially looking indifferent for half the season, Dragic checking out, Pat Beverley's whole act, etc) and continuing on into this summer, with Vuc stupidly talking about how he's "sacrificed his game".
Bad reasoning begets bad reasoning. Once you go down the path of making decisions for reasons other than "win this game", you'd opened Pandora's box.
Maybe this year's competition will be a true competition where the best players win and keep their jobs. That would help put things on a better footing. Or, maybe it'll be a sham like last year, and it'll just be more of the same.
Maybe I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing, but I don't necessarily disagree with Billy's choice to start the season with Ayo and Pat in the starting lineup.
By the end of the previous season, Ayo absolutely looked like the better player than Coby, especially as a point guard. He also fit that starting point guard spot better, as he was considered the much better defender going into the season, which is something they need since DeMar and Zach aren't defenders.
Yes, you could argue Caruso was the much better fit, which he certainly was/is. But I think they wanted Caruso coming off the bench playing limited minutes in an attempt to keep him healthy.
Same goes for Pat. The team is small and Pat has considerably more size than either DJJ or Javonte. He certainly doesn't play bigger than those two, but I think the thinking was he'd get more comfortable and come out of his shell. We all know that didn't really happen until he was finally moved to the bench late in the season.
So I say all that to say, I think I agree with Billy's choices to start the season. I very much disagree with how long it took him to finally adjust the starting lineup though.
I think the problem with all this is that ayo looked to us, people who only get to see him play in televised games, as the better player based on the previous season. Coby bettered his handles in the offseason, so the coaching staff and front office should have maybe noticed that? Instead it came off as a pleasant surprise in the middle of the season.
The fact that we're in year 3 and our front office is still like "well lets see what these can do" bothers me because while as a fan i only see them every other day for a span of 6 months, the front office seems them daily. I may need to see more of player x to have some conclusion, but the org should already have a conclusion. We can't be 3 years in and still wondering who is the next pg up with lonzo out.
I'm sure that this pg battle isn't going to be over in training camp. The Season will start and the talking point will be "lets see what these guys can do, we're starting player x today but depending on how things look we may change it again" - yea - that's healthy for a team.
The front office strategy seems to be just selling "patience" to the fans as if they're cooking up a championship, when in actuality when we finally do have a contending team it will be likely none of the players here today will be on it. It all just seems like a farce and it's hard to get excited for that.
AK is hopeless for change so I think I'm going to trick myself into thinking maybe Billy can change the team some. It has to come from Billy + a PG. Listening to Larro Golden today on Bulls Gold gave me some optimism, but if I were Billy I would go into the season with 2 simple mantra's (even if it only had an effect for the first dozen games or so).
1) Shoot the Damn Open 3 (specifically regarding Pat, DDR, and Ayo). Don't think about it, just SHOOT THE THREE.
2) No iso ball until 8 seconds left in the shot clock (directed squarely at Zach and DDR, to their faces in front of the team). Work the ball around the floor, get off ball motion and screens going, work the pick and roll with Vuc, whatever in those first 16 seconds, but no iso ball.
We have possibly a new starting PG in Jevon so hopefully Billy gets him on his side to buy in to better selfless team play like Lonzo ran, and even better if we land Brogdon (pipe dream). Anyway the PG situation must be obviously vastly improved in the first quarter of the season with Jevon, as I don't have much faith that Coby, Ayo, or Caruso is going to magically turn into an effective QB like even Pat Bev was at the end last year. No QB point guard, gonna be ISO ball again.
Also, random thought from listening to Bulls Gold... Germany won the World Cup over the Americans and everyone else with the Wagners, Dennis Schroeder, and Daniel Thies. They did this by building a highly complimentary roster that plays well together in their system... This is probably more an indictment on how poorly the American team was constructed to play together, but it just reminds me that since we have a handicapped team (refuses to go over the salary cap), we absolutely need to sign players who compliment each other within a system. It's the only way we'll ever go deep in the playoffs with Jerry Shortpockets at the helm. I feel like we've been some crappy version of 3 Alpha's for 7 years now.
I think the key is whether Carter can actually run the show. Will he be able to wave off Zach and DDR when they're calling for the ball outside of the flow of the offense? PatBev was able to do that because of his reputation and because he wan't worried about ruffling any feathers, but I don't know if Carter will be given the same level of respect.
My guess is that Carter will have no problem waving them off. Where is see a problem arising is when DeMar and Zach later go complaining to Billy that Carter isn't giving them the ball when they want. Do we really believe Billy is going to tell those two that they need to play the team game? He hasn't so far.
Those guys seemed to be OK with PatBev running the offense and not doing the "hey DeMar/Zach here's the ball with 20 seconds on the shot clock, go and create" thing they love. So, I have some optimism that they'll be OK with it now-- but PatBev was only on the team for like a dozen games. No idea if they'll be as OK with it for 82.
Yeah, I certainly hope they're okay with it. But as you say, Pat Bev was only there for a handful of games. Also, Pat Bev has made a very specific name for himself over the years. Carter hasn't really (at least not to the same level), so I could see Zach and DeMar being less okay with Carter playing the Pat Bev role. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Fully agree, maybe the most interesting thing to watch for the first 10 games of the season, which will go hand in hand with whether they're actually running an offense or continuing iso ball. Only other thing I'm anxious to see is if Pat, Coby, or Ayo has taken another step in their game like how we used to see Jimmy Butler come back with a new offseason tool he learned every year early in his career
He's not going to run the show because he's not a PG. The whole point of his is to come down, dump it off to one of the scorers, and then be an off-ball shooting threat
Thought to be expounded on another day but what exactly has rebranding ourselves as a "player's organization" gotten us in this AKME era? Sounds good on paper but I don't see how it actually has results. We arguably overpaid a handful of guys on our team, and have Billy at the helm deferring to star players, and have let Lonzo do his own thing with his career threatening injury, all in the spirit of this mythical "player's org" status. To what end
Well, DeRozen wants to resign. Zach has pledged his loyalty (no trade demand to LA yet). All our free agents resigned and respectable vets signed for low money. The bigger problem is Donovan’s small ball not working and him being a pushover, letting no-pass iso, no 3’s, no drawing fouls, and no crashing the boards continue year after year. These are changes that coaches can insist on and get with carrots and sticks.
Appreciate the thought out response even if I don't agree with most of it. I'll probably be wondering about this for the next few months, this whole "player's org" thing.
At this point in Deebo's career, he should be saying such things if he wants to max out his last serious contract, unless he just wants to go home for cheap. Zach... I wouldn't necessarily term his relationship with the Bulls as one of loyalty. He thinks it's his team which he desired after the olympics experience, and we gave him by far the most money he could have ever received (for me, an overpay, but I digress). Vuc was an overpay as well as Ayo IMO. The Jevon Carter and Coby contracts were good, I could see those construed as good deals, tho Carter is a local hometown guy and they probably both see good opportunity here given the hole at starting PG. The Torrey Craig deal definitely seems like a good deal, no argument there. The Andre Drummond deal was decent. But on the whole, it seems like we've overpaid more than market value more often than not (I could be missing key signings here though). Doesn't seem like we've reaped any contract savings the last couple years on the whole; Zach and Vuc certainly gave us no discount.
Off hand, I can’t think of too many recent NBA players signing ‘at a discount’ with any team. And I don’t think Harden signing at 35M instead of 45M should qualify. The best an NBA team can do is avoid trade demands by paying up and being competitive. And when trading players, send them to good situations so they’re happy and recommend your team to other players as a destination. Forcing good players to find a deal in restricted free agency (like GP did to Zach and Phoenix did to Ayton) or having deals fall through (like with Brogdan to Clips) are no-no’s. Oh, and let your players with rings (Draymond) punch teammates in the face with minimal consequences.
So I guess the implication here is that 1) all teams now must be a "player's org" just to even be a "modern business", and therefore by logic 2) since all teams are now player's orgs, it does you no actual benefit to be one because it doesn't set you apart from the field. I think there was a tenuous moment among all the NBA recently with Lillard trying to dictate one single team he demanded to be traded to, and if that actually happened the precedent it would set. Thank goodness the Blazers didn't cave to his demand, but the line seems to have been moved too far in one direction.
I don't know what the issue is with having a player go find his market and come back to a team; why is that not a card a team should be able to use? With Zach, he gets to be a towel boy for the olympic squad then immediately afterwards switches to Klutch, changes his PR approach completely, talking about wanting "more respect", saying he's open to signing anywhere and not committed to signing with the Bulls, ESPN picks it up and manufactures drama out of it slanted at the player.... And I appreciate that approach for Zach! Do what you gotta do to negotiate an insanely massive payday. He used every chip he could play there. So why can't the Bulls use one of their limited chips by telling Zach to test the market to gauge his value, before potentially overpaying for him? You said yourself, basically every player doesn't sign team friendly deals now, but at the same time teams aren't supposed to be able to use leverage.... Doesn't make sense to me; the result is Zach is very difficult to trade now because of contract. We've obviously negotiated against ourselves a couple times recently, so this is ostensibly in the name of keeping up with the times and style points?
And so my question is, to what end? Zach has been pretty dramatic the last couple seasons, there has been a void in player leadership leading to the likes of Tristant Thompson, Goran Dragic, and Pat Bev coming in and in some way acknowledging the cultural void on the team. It's my belief that Billy, and probably most coaches, need advocates on the floor to buy into their coaching for the things they're trying to implement to stick. For us that seems to need to be a PG due to roster construction. I think what the Bulls in particular need, is less of a "player's org" (which probably really just means "star player's org" re: Zach, DDR, and Vuc) and more of a top down structure where there's no doubt the team goals, coach's authority, and culture trying to be maintained. Otherwise we just have overpaid iso-ball with no identity to show for this.
But this is probably just my long-winded way of saying I want Thibs back.
Haha, Thibs is definitely old school but too stubborn. I agree with you, just saying how it is. It’s true the inmates are running the asylum, and that is never good. Players need to give up ego to benefit the team, but player friendly orgs just inflate it. I agree the players have not bought into Donny’s way, which is why he should be canned. Thibs has no problem gluing players to the bench who are not on board/can’t execute (at least in his opinion). We do need more coaches who do this. Zach had a tantrum the one time Donny tried, and then coach just gave up/in.
Depends on your motivation. If you're looking for career stability in one location, and getting paid max value, I think the Bulls org has done that generally from players to coaches to management.
If you're looking for winning culture or legacy or innovation, Chicago is not your scene
Every time I hear continuity from this front office, hear about cheap media interviews, hear why signing this major free agent is a "longshot", or 20 reasons why this perfect trade target is a poor fit, I can usually trace it back to guys in suits talking, trying to convince me that everything is gonna be great, while they look to fleece my pockets.
Your signings don't move the needle, major trades were made in conference that set you even further back this season, and not banging on the door to haul in Holiday was just professional malpractice. You're simply not a front office to be taken seriously any longer.
Hollinger of the Athletic is taking the under on Bulls 37.5 win line. Guess I should skip the NBA season and start reading up on Cubs trades/signings and spring training schedule? This is depressing!
Major injuries could cause this, but Zach was not himself for half of last year and Carter/Craig are underrated signings that addressed issues. There should be some improvement from Ayo/White/PW without much drop off from Debo/Vuc. Fuck the Athletic, go Bulls!
I think there are basically only two ways the Bulls finish under the 37.5 win line. First, if the front office decides it's time to shake things up and ships out DeMar and Zach and maybe Vooch. Second, and far more likely, would be injuries. The Bulls were surprisingly injury-free last season and still only got to 40 wins. If they struggle with injuries throughout the season, I could see them slip below 37 wins.
But as you say, I think with the additions of Carter and Craig, as well as whatever improvements we see from Ayo, White and Pat, this team should be better than last year. Not like win-a-playoff-series better, but maybe a game or two over .500 better.
That's essentially what Hollinger said. He's considering it likely that the team simply won't be as healthy next year. And then it's a high probability they blow it up mid-season which gets you the under
This is a dicey thing to 'predict' because maybe the Bulls guys just aren't injury prone. But they are in their 30s, and as Bullini said even Zach was healthy but 'not himself', and that's likely to happen his whole career
Well, they all said the DeRozan deal was horrible. I’m starting to think Acne is right about the team not feeling like a team, but it’s more around the lack of willingness to sacrifice your stats/game for more wins. From this perspective, continuity is good because you get sick of the losing and knowing there’s no way out forces you to change/try harder. Bears case in point. We need a Phil Jackson type coach who can turn up the Zen and get everyone passing and helping.
Just read Joe Cowley's piece from a couple days ago about Billy thinking of running a 10-man rotation. Billy said he could potentially run Coby, Zach, DeMar, Pat and Vooch as the starters and then have a defensive death squad of Carter, Ayo, Caruso, Craig and Drummond play together off the bench.
Things like this are what make me question Billy's ability to coach. Why would you split the groups up like that? Play Carter and Craig with the mid-3 since both are excellent defenders and shoot the three reasonably well. Plus, Craig is a great offensive rebounder for his size, something the starters sorely lack. Not to mention, both of those guys have made their names by being effective without the ball in their hands.
Put Coby and Pat with Ayo, AC and Drummond and they can run the second unit. Both of those guys are young and really need the ball in their hands to continue to grow, something that absolutely won't happen if they're always playing with the mid-3. Now both your starting unit and your bench unit have a solid mix of offense and defense.
just don't play Drummond at all unless there are huge centers you need fouls on.
Give Vuc his precious touches with the second unit. Make Pat the backup center. Billy can firmly establish he knows more than KC Johnson and Stacey King, by even further acknowledging Drummond hurts more than he helps
I'd rather use preseason for that than not have Dalen Terry play at all in the first half. But then I did see some Dalen Terry minutes and yup shouldn't play heh
Yeah Dalen Terry, Julian Phillips, Justin Lewis makes total sense to give them big development minutes. But Max Heidegger and Henri Drell? Maybe I shouldn't complain about testing out Euro guys, it's what I think we should do anyways given our cap situation . But that's a lot of dudes getting PT
PG: Scoot Henderson, Malcolm Brogdon
SG: Anfernee Simons, Shaedon Sharpe
SF: Jerami Grant, Matisse Thybulle
PF: Robert Williams, Kris Murray/Jabari Walker
C: Deandre Ayton (Williams plays C with second unit)
Why I think this current blazers team is better than bulls lol
Maybe the Bulls should try to trade for Time Lord. I'd trade Pat for him.
gotta clear that with Vucevic, self-described elite starting center
As if. Show me who on that roster can provide continuity and cohesion!
I would want Thybulle or Williams (or anyone else), but who would you trade for Brogdon?
Lonzo, Dalen Terry, and extend their protections to Top 20 (big whoop) on their pick for Brogdon? Would they do that to get out of his salary? Do they care about that?
I think there's a decent chance any one of us could become the Bulls VP when AK's tenure ends in 2040 or whatever. Here's how:
Resume - doesn't matter, you don't need to have accomplished anything. Just say you were once in a room with a guy who knew a guy who went to high school with the dude who, I dunno, scouted Wemby for the Spurs.
The interview - say you don't wanna rock the boat. Keep operating costs low. You have good communication skills and still keep a land line phone. Basketball vision includes trimming the fat off the scouting department, finding a cheaper medical provider, and of course keeping team salary down.
Salary negotiation - say you'll do the job for $250-300K.
This should be the playbook for having a decades-long tenure in a Reinsdorf front office.
have to remember to call Jerry "sir" and extoll the virtues of any baseball player who actually sucked but his team won in spite of it
“I’d like around $300,000 a year but really, any salary that Mr. Reinsdorf is willing to pay me is a blessing.” Boom. Hired.
"You have good communication skills"
Ehhh this part isn't even necessary.
It’s just a filler talking point for the interview because outright saying “I’m as good as anyone at signing minimum salary players and losing every trade” is too on the nose.
I just can't get over how asinine the "win more games against good teams" objective is. Like, you did not win more games in total last year. So if you won more against good teams, that means you won less against bad ones. Was that part of the objective?
These are the goals of a franchise that aspires to be "the low seed that no one wants to play". You know, a team with the mystical ability to win close games and games against good opponents but somehow not that many games in general. This would literally make more sense if they were like "ok, so going forward, the FO will be devoted practitioners of ancient shamanic magic." That would be relatively reassuring. It would at least offer a mechanism for how they plan to achieve occult objectives.
I think he just feels really bad about the 2021-22 season where they lost every game to the top 4 teams (or something similarly bad) and were blown out on national TV, and/or at home, multiple times. Like that's the kind of thing that unnecessarily gets up to ownership level. So AK can't say his team is meaningfully better but he can say to the 'dorfs it FEELS better
but it's not even a consistent metric. He'll also just cite regular record when it suits him. They went 14-9 after the all-star break, but with a chance to get a higher seed they lost by double digits to Sixers, Lakers, Clippers, Bucks, Hawks
"Unless there’s a big discount agreed to that makes DeMar more attractive as a trade asset..."
Well, supposedly Vooch took a "home town" discount that will result in him earning slightly less per year than he was earning on his previous contract he signed as an All-Star in Orlando. So I'm sure a discount for DeMar's services would be like three more years at $35 million a year instead of $40 million or something like that. What a steal...
Acne and Donny suck. Not sure how they stay below the cap next year. Devin Vassell just signed for 30+M per year. If PW blows up (eh, probably won’t?) and Demar is already resigned, might need to waive/stretch Ball to have any space…
Demarr should be next Bulls chief, his old man mentoring + ass kissing to get a new contract is perfectly played. He SHOULD be spending his time shooting threes, but knows better what gets you a new contract around here.
I say with 100% certainty they will not be paying Lonzo $20M next season
How can you be so certain? With how long they've already held onto him, as well as the fact that they seem to be loyal to their players over what the team actually needs, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Lonzo suiting up next year to come off the bench as a tenth man because he's technically healthy, albeit a shell of himself.
I guess I should add a prerequisite that I'm 100% certain this expirimental knee surgery won't change his ability to play
Ah I gotcha. Yeah, I'd be incredibly surprised to see him actually be able to play basketball at the NBA level next season.
Yeah no one of his former ability level has ever gotten this procedure. I hope he proves everyone wrong and plays, sure - but moreover just as a human being I hope it has worked to get rid of all the pain he had.
Completely agree! I'd love to see him suit up and be back at a high level, but I'd also be happy just knowing he doesn't have that pain anymore even if his basketball career is basically over.
With Vuc, his phrasing may have been ego but I think the point about using him more as a creator makes sense. He's not proto-Jokic but he certainly has the passing skills to be more effective in that role.
yeah I think he can be more personally effective, but the offense wouldn't be
That makes sense. My skewed view is from seeing him more with the, understandably, weaker Montenegro side that leaned on that aspect more.
there was even more from Vuc, I didn't see it until now because I think Cowley was the only one who published it:
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"for me I can understand [fan negativity] because people expect what I was doing in Orlando. But I don’t have that same role, I’m not utilized the same way, don’t have the same amount of touches or the touches where I was getting previously.
“Out of the three of us (Vucevic, DeMar DeRozan and Zach LaVine) I’m the one that has sacrificed the most from an individual game. That’s why I feel like the people that have been critical of me really don’t understand how basketball works, what it takes for us to function as a group."
https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2023/10/3/23901997/bulls-nikola-vucevic-unwilling-participant-blame-game
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It's clear he wishes it was Orlando Vuc, where the team was a bottom-10 offense featuring him in the post but he got an All-Star selection
And it just goes against what AK and Donovan said earlier in the day in the style of play they want. If anything it's asking Vuc to do even less, and he's saying he talked to them about doing more. Maybe he quickly got over it when seeing the salary offer.
This has always been my problem with Vooch. It's clear his top goal isn't winning. There are way too many games every year where he just doesn't seem to want to even be there. Why would you want to keep a guy like that around? Especially since it's not like he's ridiculously talented and is still one of the best players in the league even if he doesn't care.
I kind of disagree here. Of the so-called big 3, Vuc is the only one who's tried to modify his game to fit what the team needed, shooting 3s he isn't comfortable with, being the sole defensive post presence, taking majority of the fan backlash. And it's all been for naught. His phrasing in the presser made it clear he's done with sacrificing his stats for a team that isn't winning. More reason to believe AKME should have traded him last deadline
I don't really disagree with you. He has sacrificed more than Zach or DeMar, but he's also worse than Zach and DeMar so he's naturally going to be asked to sacrifice more.
He's a center in the 2020s. If you don't shoot threes, you better be an amazing post defender. Sadly he's not amazing at either, but he has at least tried to improve in both areas (sacrificed, if you will).
I don't think him sacrificing necessarily means he's a winner though. He was on bad Orlando teams and seemed happy to be the offensive focal point, even if it meant being a first round exit annually.
It's not like he asked to be traded to Chicago. He has sacrificed here because he's had no other choice. He randomly doesn't show up to games or checks out midway through. Not a winning mentality. Do you see a guy like Caruso doing that?
Still not sure why AKME wanted to keep him around. He doesn't fit this team and as you say, he should have been traded last deadline.
I mean I definitely don't see why they kept him. Totally weird choice.
These comments read to me like Boozer's complaints about playing in the 4th - the change was fine when the team was doing well, but when it's clear shit isn't working the player questions the sacrifice (note that I am not saying that involving him more would have the desired effect though).
Sure, I don't blame Vooch at all. He's been used terribly on the Bulls. I don't think that and whether he's a winner or not are mutually exclusive though.
I don't disagree. I was just saying it was the same sort of feeling I got. Just sort of that I get that a guy looks at the losing and thinks he can help fix it. Even if he's wrong.
Yeah I get his consternation that he was told he has to sacrifice for a better offense and he did and the offense was still bad.
He's not acknowledging that Orlando Vuc offense was also bad.
Because Orlando Vuc was good for Vuc. The bulls Vuc isn't good for Vuc or for the Bulls. I'm not a huge fan of Vuc at all, but feel fans are pointing the "not-a-winner" gun at vuc instead of a front office and head coach that brought him here into a position-to-fail. I firmly believe 100% of our disdain for the Bulls should be pointed at the front office, I'm well past talking about what players aren't good on this team when the front office has done nothing to help them succeed or make changes.
agreed. same with paw, he has been put in a terrible position. that doesn't mean he'd be great or would have for sure succeeded elsewhere, it just seems like they've put him in a bad position and wonder why he doesn't do better.
I agree about the front office. I think I just feel like you can believe the front office hasn't done Vooch any favors while also believing Vooch doesn't seem to be a winner at heart.
It's not much disdain because I don't really think much about Vuc at all. He's not that important. Or at least he shouldn't be. But that's why his comments are notable bc he thinks he is (and Bulls pay him like he is).
yet more from Vuc today on how the offense has struggled and (surprise) if you give it to him more it'll help
https://allchgo.com/2023/10/04/re-imagining-vucevics-role-in-the-offense
this isn't totally wrong, but it's definitely over emphasizing Vuc. Despite being a member of the 'big 3', he is not 'one of three elite scorers on the Bulls'
also it's an obvious problem where it's known but not addressed even though he played every game last season, and he says "I don't know" as to why this is now an emphasis
I think the "battle for the starting pg spot" is just so stupid especially since the bulls are claiming problem numero uno is chemistry and cohesion. Like how does having a civil war make things better exactly?
Whats more annoying is that the bulls could have been more active in pursuing either Lillard or harden (yes... That harden, who is still a better pg than anyone we have healthy) or in the secondary assets of jrue or brogdan.
In other words instead of having this great battle of mediocrity, we could have just made a trade and defined roles before training camp so that they could work on how to actually improve rather than trying to run it back with 50% more efficient towel waving.
Yeah that just makes all the PG's seem like obvious lesser importance players to make them do that. We need the PG to basically be the leader to bring out the best in this team; they should pick one early and encourage him to lead aggressively. Last thing you want is a guy who just brings the ball up the court and quickly passes it off to the Big 3 never to be seen again on that possession
I think they should just name Caruso starting PG. If anything so I can stop being told how undervalued he is.
I might disagree if I knew what these guys really meant by talking about "playing like a team" and all that stuff.
Last year, the Bulls said there was competition, but then two obviously inferior players "won" and kept the jobs over players other guys who were clearly better. Ayo is a worse player than both Caruso and Coby. And, both of those guys brought something the starters desperately needed. Pat really was gifted the job over Javonte and DJJ.
That kinds of entitlement sets a tone for what you saw last season (Zach especially looking indifferent for half the season, Dragic checking out, Pat Beverley's whole act, etc) and continuing on into this summer, with Vuc stupidly talking about how he's "sacrificed his game".
Bad reasoning begets bad reasoning. Once you go down the path of making decisions for reasons other than "win this game", you'd opened Pandora's box.
Maybe this year's competition will be a true competition where the best players win and keep their jobs. That would help put things on a better footing. Or, maybe it'll be a sham like last year, and it'll just be more of the same.
Maybe I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing, but I don't necessarily disagree with Billy's choice to start the season with Ayo and Pat in the starting lineup.
By the end of the previous season, Ayo absolutely looked like the better player than Coby, especially as a point guard. He also fit that starting point guard spot better, as he was considered the much better defender going into the season, which is something they need since DeMar and Zach aren't defenders.
Yes, you could argue Caruso was the much better fit, which he certainly was/is. But I think they wanted Caruso coming off the bench playing limited minutes in an attempt to keep him healthy.
Same goes for Pat. The team is small and Pat has considerably more size than either DJJ or Javonte. He certainly doesn't play bigger than those two, but I think the thinking was he'd get more comfortable and come out of his shell. We all know that didn't really happen until he was finally moved to the bench late in the season.
So I say all that to say, I think I agree with Billy's choices to start the season. I very much disagree with how long it took him to finally adjust the starting lineup though.
I think the problem with all this is that ayo looked to us, people who only get to see him play in televised games, as the better player based on the previous season. Coby bettered his handles in the offseason, so the coaching staff and front office should have maybe noticed that? Instead it came off as a pleasant surprise in the middle of the season.
The fact that we're in year 3 and our front office is still like "well lets see what these can do" bothers me because while as a fan i only see them every other day for a span of 6 months, the front office seems them daily. I may need to see more of player x to have some conclusion, but the org should already have a conclusion. We can't be 3 years in and still wondering who is the next pg up with lonzo out.
I'm sure that this pg battle isn't going to be over in training camp. The Season will start and the talking point will be "lets see what these guys can do, we're starting player x today but depending on how things look we may change it again" - yea - that's healthy for a team.
The front office strategy seems to be just selling "patience" to the fans as if they're cooking up a championship, when in actuality when we finally do have a contending team it will be likely none of the players here today will be on it. It all just seems like a farce and it's hard to get excited for that.
Yeah, can't disagree with any of those points.
AK is hopeless for change so I think I'm going to trick myself into thinking maybe Billy can change the team some. It has to come from Billy + a PG. Listening to Larro Golden today on Bulls Gold gave me some optimism, but if I were Billy I would go into the season with 2 simple mantra's (even if it only had an effect for the first dozen games or so).
1) Shoot the Damn Open 3 (specifically regarding Pat, DDR, and Ayo). Don't think about it, just SHOOT THE THREE.
2) No iso ball until 8 seconds left in the shot clock (directed squarely at Zach and DDR, to their faces in front of the team). Work the ball around the floor, get off ball motion and screens going, work the pick and roll with Vuc, whatever in those first 16 seconds, but no iso ball.
We have possibly a new starting PG in Jevon so hopefully Billy gets him on his side to buy in to better selfless team play like Lonzo ran, and even better if we land Brogdon (pipe dream). Anyway the PG situation must be obviously vastly improved in the first quarter of the season with Jevon, as I don't have much faith that Coby, Ayo, or Caruso is going to magically turn into an effective QB like even Pat Bev was at the end last year. No QB point guard, gonna be ISO ball again.
Also, random thought from listening to Bulls Gold... Germany won the World Cup over the Americans and everyone else with the Wagners, Dennis Schroeder, and Daniel Thies. They did this by building a highly complimentary roster that plays well together in their system... This is probably more an indictment on how poorly the American team was constructed to play together, but it just reminds me that since we have a handicapped team (refuses to go over the salary cap), we absolutely need to sign players who compliment each other within a system. It's the only way we'll ever go deep in the playoffs with Jerry Shortpockets at the helm. I feel like we've been some crappy version of 3 Alpha's for 7 years now.
Billy could challenge them all to a pushup contest.
I think the key is whether Carter can actually run the show. Will he be able to wave off Zach and DDR when they're calling for the ball outside of the flow of the offense? PatBev was able to do that because of his reputation and because he wan't worried about ruffling any feathers, but I don't know if Carter will be given the same level of respect.
My guess is that Carter will have no problem waving them off. Where is see a problem arising is when DeMar and Zach later go complaining to Billy that Carter isn't giving them the ball when they want. Do we really believe Billy is going to tell those two that they need to play the team game? He hasn't so far.
Those guys seemed to be OK with PatBev running the offense and not doing the "hey DeMar/Zach here's the ball with 20 seconds on the shot clock, go and create" thing they love. So, I have some optimism that they'll be OK with it now-- but PatBev was only on the team for like a dozen games. No idea if they'll be as OK with it for 82.
Yeah, I certainly hope they're okay with it. But as you say, Pat Bev was only there for a handful of games. Also, Pat Bev has made a very specific name for himself over the years. Carter hasn't really (at least not to the same level), so I could see Zach and DeMar being less okay with Carter playing the Pat Bev role. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Fully agree, maybe the most interesting thing to watch for the first 10 games of the season, which will go hand in hand with whether they're actually running an offense or continuing iso ball. Only other thing I'm anxious to see is if Pat, Coby, or Ayo has taken another step in their game like how we used to see Jimmy Butler come back with a new offseason tool he learned every year early in his career
He's not going to run the show because he's not a PG. The whole point of his is to come down, dump it off to one of the scorers, and then be an off-ball shooting threat
Yep, exactly right!
Thought to be expounded on another day but what exactly has rebranding ourselves as a "player's organization" gotten us in this AKME era? Sounds good on paper but I don't see how it actually has results. We arguably overpaid a handful of guys on our team, and have Billy at the helm deferring to star players, and have let Lonzo do his own thing with his career threatening injury, all in the spirit of this mythical "player's org" status. To what end
Well, DeRozen wants to resign. Zach has pledged his loyalty (no trade demand to LA yet). All our free agents resigned and respectable vets signed for low money. The bigger problem is Donovan’s small ball not working and him being a pushover, letting no-pass iso, no 3’s, no drawing fouls, and no crashing the boards continue year after year. These are changes that coaches can insist on and get with carrots and sticks.
Appreciate the thought out response even if I don't agree with most of it. I'll probably be wondering about this for the next few months, this whole "player's org" thing.
At this point in Deebo's career, he should be saying such things if he wants to max out his last serious contract, unless he just wants to go home for cheap. Zach... I wouldn't necessarily term his relationship with the Bulls as one of loyalty. He thinks it's his team which he desired after the olympics experience, and we gave him by far the most money he could have ever received (for me, an overpay, but I digress). Vuc was an overpay as well as Ayo IMO. The Jevon Carter and Coby contracts were good, I could see those construed as good deals, tho Carter is a local hometown guy and they probably both see good opportunity here given the hole at starting PG. The Torrey Craig deal definitely seems like a good deal, no argument there. The Andre Drummond deal was decent. But on the whole, it seems like we've overpaid more than market value more often than not (I could be missing key signings here though). Doesn't seem like we've reaped any contract savings the last couple years on the whole; Zach and Vuc certainly gave us no discount.
Off hand, I can’t think of too many recent NBA players signing ‘at a discount’ with any team. And I don’t think Harden signing at 35M instead of 45M should qualify. The best an NBA team can do is avoid trade demands by paying up and being competitive. And when trading players, send them to good situations so they’re happy and recommend your team to other players as a destination. Forcing good players to find a deal in restricted free agency (like GP did to Zach and Phoenix did to Ayton) or having deals fall through (like with Brogdan to Clips) are no-no’s. Oh, and let your players with rings (Draymond) punch teammates in the face with minimal consequences.
So I guess the implication here is that 1) all teams now must be a "player's org" just to even be a "modern business", and therefore by logic 2) since all teams are now player's orgs, it does you no actual benefit to be one because it doesn't set you apart from the field. I think there was a tenuous moment among all the NBA recently with Lillard trying to dictate one single team he demanded to be traded to, and if that actually happened the precedent it would set. Thank goodness the Blazers didn't cave to his demand, but the line seems to have been moved too far in one direction.
I don't know what the issue is with having a player go find his market and come back to a team; why is that not a card a team should be able to use? With Zach, he gets to be a towel boy for the olympic squad then immediately afterwards switches to Klutch, changes his PR approach completely, talking about wanting "more respect", saying he's open to signing anywhere and not committed to signing with the Bulls, ESPN picks it up and manufactures drama out of it slanted at the player.... And I appreciate that approach for Zach! Do what you gotta do to negotiate an insanely massive payday. He used every chip he could play there. So why can't the Bulls use one of their limited chips by telling Zach to test the market to gauge his value, before potentially overpaying for him? You said yourself, basically every player doesn't sign team friendly deals now, but at the same time teams aren't supposed to be able to use leverage.... Doesn't make sense to me; the result is Zach is very difficult to trade now because of contract. We've obviously negotiated against ourselves a couple times recently, so this is ostensibly in the name of keeping up with the times and style points?
And so my question is, to what end? Zach has been pretty dramatic the last couple seasons, there has been a void in player leadership leading to the likes of Tristant Thompson, Goran Dragic, and Pat Bev coming in and in some way acknowledging the cultural void on the team. It's my belief that Billy, and probably most coaches, need advocates on the floor to buy into their coaching for the things they're trying to implement to stick. For us that seems to need to be a PG due to roster construction. I think what the Bulls in particular need, is less of a "player's org" (which probably really just means "star player's org" re: Zach, DDR, and Vuc) and more of a top down structure where there's no doubt the team goals, coach's authority, and culture trying to be maintained. Otherwise we just have overpaid iso-ball with no identity to show for this.
But this is probably just my long-winded way of saying I want Thibs back.
Haha, Thibs is definitely old school but too stubborn. I agree with you, just saying how it is. It’s true the inmates are running the asylum, and that is never good. Players need to give up ego to benefit the team, but player friendly orgs just inflate it. I agree the players have not bought into Donny’s way, which is why he should be canned. Thibs has no problem gluing players to the bench who are not on board/can’t execute (at least in his opinion). We do need more coaches who do this. Zach had a tantrum the one time Donny tried, and then coach just gave up/in.
Haven't confirmed this but saw Windhorst said that Jrue Holiday would only sign an extension with a few teams (and that didn't include the Bulls)
Can't say I blame him
Depends on your motivation. If you're looking for career stability in one location, and getting paid max value, I think the Bulls org has done that generally from players to coaches to management.
If you're looking for winning culture or legacy or innovation, Chicago is not your scene
Talk. Talk. Talk. Talk. Talk.
Every time I hear continuity from this front office, hear about cheap media interviews, hear why signing this major free agent is a "longshot", or 20 reasons why this perfect trade target is a poor fit, I can usually trace it back to guys in suits talking, trying to convince me that everything is gonna be great, while they look to fleece my pockets.
Your signings don't move the needle, major trades were made in conference that set you even further back this season, and not banging on the door to haul in Holiday was just professional malpractice. You're simply not a front office to be taken seriously any longer.
Hollinger of the Athletic is taking the under on Bulls 37.5 win line. Guess I should skip the NBA season and start reading up on Cubs trades/signings and spring training schedule? This is depressing!
Major injuries could cause this, but Zach was not himself for half of last year and Carter/Craig are underrated signings that addressed issues. There should be some improvement from Ayo/White/PW without much drop off from Debo/Vuc. Fuck the Athletic, go Bulls!
I think there are basically only two ways the Bulls finish under the 37.5 win line. First, if the front office decides it's time to shake things up and ships out DeMar and Zach and maybe Vooch. Second, and far more likely, would be injuries. The Bulls were surprisingly injury-free last season and still only got to 40 wins. If they struggle with injuries throughout the season, I could see them slip below 37 wins.
But as you say, I think with the additions of Carter and Craig, as well as whatever improvements we see from Ayo, White and Pat, this team should be better than last year. Not like win-a-playoff-series better, but maybe a game or two over .500 better.
That's essentially what Hollinger said. He's considering it likely that the team simply won't be as healthy next year. And then it's a high probability they blow it up mid-season which gets you the under
This is a dicey thing to 'predict' because maybe the Bulls guys just aren't injury prone. But they are in their 30s, and as Bullini said even Zach was healthy but 'not himself', and that's likely to happen his whole career
The Ringer also had Bulls below Pacers, Magic, Raptors, and Nets in their first power rankings
National media conspiracy?!?
Well, they all said the DeRozan deal was horrible. I’m starting to think Acne is right about the team not feeling like a team, but it’s more around the lack of willingness to sacrifice your stats/game for more wins. From this perspective, continuity is good because you get sick of the losing and knowing there’s no way out forces you to change/try harder. Bears case in point. We need a Phil Jackson type coach who can turn up the Zen and get everyone passing and helping.
Just read Joe Cowley's piece from a couple days ago about Billy thinking of running a 10-man rotation. Billy said he could potentially run Coby, Zach, DeMar, Pat and Vooch as the starters and then have a defensive death squad of Carter, Ayo, Caruso, Craig and Drummond play together off the bench.
Things like this are what make me question Billy's ability to coach. Why would you split the groups up like that? Play Carter and Craig with the mid-3 since both are excellent defenders and shoot the three reasonably well. Plus, Craig is a great offensive rebounder for his size, something the starters sorely lack. Not to mention, both of those guys have made their names by being effective without the ball in their hands.
Put Coby and Pat with Ayo, AC and Drummond and they can run the second unit. Both of those guys are young and really need the ball in their hands to continue to grow, something that absolutely won't happen if they're always playing with the mid-3. Now both your starting unit and your bench unit have a solid mix of offense and defense.
Preach, brother, preach! It should also motivate Coby and especially PW to come off the bench to earn a starting spot. I’ve had enough Billy ball.
Yeah! Nothing motivates guys like giving away their jobs to inferior players
just don't play Drummond at all unless there are huge centers you need fouls on.
Give Vuc his precious touches with the second unit. Make Pat the backup center. Billy can firmly establish he knows more than KC Johnson and Stacey King, by even further acknowledging Drummond hurts more than he helps
No game preseason game thread. I've yet to announce what the site will be during the season but a Sunday afternoon preseason game is...low activity
lol
Milwaukee Bucks Starters:
Lindell Wigginton
Malik Beasley
Jae Crowder
Bobby Portis
Brook Lopez
Is us giving the entire Windy City Bulls roster PT during a preseason game some AK eastern european plot to drive Onuralp Bitim jersey sales?
I'd rather use preseason for that than not have Dalen Terry play at all in the first half. But then I did see some Dalen Terry minutes and yup shouldn't play heh
Yeah Dalen Terry, Julian Phillips, Justin Lewis makes total sense to give them big development minutes. But Max Heidegger and Henri Drell? Maybe I shouldn't complain about testing out Euro guys, it's what I think we should do anyways given our cap situation . But that's a lot of dudes getting PT
It's probably too early, but the Vooch-focused half court offense was pretty terrible today...