"Zach will never play here" assumes that there will be someone in the near future who will offer anything for him. That's far from certain which is why I think such confidence on that issue is misplaced. He can't sit out a season where he's healthy. He's going to have to swallow some pride and play basketball, at an intermittently professional effort level, for that $40 million.
I think Matt is saying Zach won't play because he believes Zach and the Bulls will come to an agreement not to play him until he's traded. I don't think he's saying Zach won't play because he'll be traded before the season starts.
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with his take, but I believe that's what he's saying.
Yeah, I just don't see any reason the Bulls and Zach agree to not play him until he's traded. If they do, he's never going to be traded because nobody is going to trade for Zach until they see him play. At least not an offer the Bulls should accept.
I don't see it, they know he can play. He's healthy. Have him go to training camp and have Donovan, KC Johnson, and Rich Paul talk about how great he looks. Starting him with Giddey and White and giving up 135 points does nothing IMO
Nah. A lot of teams aren’t going to take their word for it. Last year at this time Ben Simmons was finally healthy.
And, let’s face the facts and say that both Klutch in general and Zach Lavine in particular have some reputational deficits to overcome.
If I were thinking about trading for Zach, I’d like to see how he navigates the situation, and I’d be more favorable to trading for him if he showed the discipline and mentality to play out the string.
Because at some point, things will be tougher on my team too after I trade for him, and I want to see how he reacts.
I think if I were to bet on the Zach situation, I'd bet on:
Zach joins team. Zach starts.
I just think all other options are worse for him and the Bulls already know he doesn't have a market. Nothing to lose from playing him. And having a healthy max player on the bench is just too awkward for all sides.
Aug 21·edited Aug 21Liked by your friendly BullsBlogger
In my best Bill Simmons voice: "Are we sure Zach is still good?"
I mean "good" in the way he was "good" before. In 2020/21 Zach put up video game numbers: 28ppg an nearly 50/40/90 shooting (he shot 50/41/85). His 3 point shooting % has fallen every season since then. He just took the lowest % of his shots at the rim than at any time in his career and it wasn't very close. Those have been replaced by 3s, so maybe it's a function of the personnel around him, but his 3pt% was the 2nd lowest of his career (lowest was a tie between rookie year and his 1st in Chicago when he was recovering from an ACL).
Maybe it's just because of how pissy he was last year. Maybe it's personnel and scheme and that's why he hates Billy Donovan so much. Or maybe it's an accumulation of a rather alarming number of "injuries Zach played through for awhile but eventually had surgery on." He had an ACL in the left knee in 2017, an "arthroscopic procedure" in the same knee in 2022, and foot surgery last February. Maybe we're wrong to believe the team's bitchy note about the last one (these are not precisely the same people but the same org and some of the same people who whispered that Luol Deng was dogging an injury).
Yet ironically if he is diminished and diminishing, Zach has even less reason to let that on than the Bulls do. He wants out, and the one thing the Lakers badly need from an acquisition is someone who can play right now, before the rest of Lebron's beard goes gray.
I think that's a big part of the whole "rehabilitating his value" point.
The decline from 20/21 to 22/23 is not that big, but last season he fell off a cliff. He started the season shooting like crap, and when he came back he was better but not by a lot.
If I am a GM, even if I know that he's not THAT injury prone, and that the surgery was elective and that he has issues with Bulls management, I want to see him return to borderline All Star form before I trade for him.
also my broader point isn't whether or not Zach plays this season, but that it makes zero difference in the future of the team or this year's entertainment product if he plays this season or gets traded for contract flotsam.
unless it is truly the case where 'the market' is insisting the Bulls give up a first round pick to move Zach, and wouldn't if they see him play for a 2-14 Bulls team that gets asked every game why Zach is still there
If Zach just sits on the sidelines, the "entertainment product" is by definition going to be a non-basketball soap opera. Every day, every game, the focus will uncomfortably be on why this supposedly healthy, great player isn't, you know, playing.
No matter what, it's not a good look, and there's a limit to how much the team and the player can talk this stuff away. The only way to really answer questions is to do it on the court.
And personally, I think the entertainment value of the dysfunction on the court is probably better than the entertainment value of Zach sitting out. Why?
Because if Zach is playing, that forces him and the rest of the team into an interesting set of situations and choices. I want to learn what the choices they make. And frankly, he's probably still the best player they have. So the level of basketball will be higher too.
On the other hand, without Zach, I'm completely uninterested in watching the Bulls. I'm sure Coby, Giddey, and Pat will put up some numbers, but everyone will when GIVEN a slot on a total shit team with no better options. I'd rather see how these guys play when they have a real option to pass it to, and a real option to take their minutes.
that's likely true. In a car crash kind of way it'll be more entertaining if Zach is around against his will
i don't think it moves a single ticket nor makes the game product any more entertaining. I suppose the level will be technically higher because he's better than other options, but he'll be playing out of position and completely uninvested
On the Athletic’s NBA pod, Andrew Schlecht and Fred Katz discussed each team’s national broadcast appearances. When noting the Bulls had 2, Katz said they got that 2nd appearance because the Chicago Bulls are “a fashion brand”.
That’s stuck with me for days. This team is a fashion brand. (So are the White Sox but at least they’re so historically awful they get covered.)
We need a name for the phenomenon where the only response to a post or point made about the Chicago Bulls is the statement: "Well, someday Reinsdorf will die."
My rooting interests have taken on something of a universal and moralistic cast. Thus, I'm rooting for the Bulls to get the 11th pick. It punishes the Bulls, who deserve it; and it rewards the Spurs, who also deserve it.
The Bulls, like the Blues, are so bad they’re good. It will be great train wreck theater. You all can’t wait to know the number of games before Zo gets reinjured, Zach gets traded, and Vuc draws a foul. I’m a fan of the dark arts and can’t wait to um learn more about um Giddey’s skills at slob wizardry and um public speaking (I haven’t practiced slob wizardry since college but it’s like riding a bike). PW, Coby, Ayo, and the new coke bottle glasses guy are all bound to break out. Finishing 11th this year is a best-case scenario since the protections are 1-8 the next two years. PS I really wanted to footnote my parentheses but that’s some yfbb wizardry!
The bottom five teams of the East are so bad this year that it’s going to be really hard for the Bulls to truly bottom out. The 11th pick is in play for them. Most sports books have them as the fifth worst team next season, but the difference between the fifth worst and eighth is only three games. The Bulls will be bad and boring next season.
This team/organization is at a point where it feels safe to ask: WHY DOES ANYONE ROOT FOR OR SUPPORT THIS SHIT SHOW?!
It is glaringly obvious that the Reinsdorf's have absolutely NO interest in running or maintaining anything that resembles a professional sports team in not one, BUT TWO different sports. Why would anyone spend a moment of their time acting like they give a rat's ass when the people who are ACTUALLY supposed to give a rat's ass are just going through the motions to collect a check?
I find it INSULTING that Arturas Karnisovas and Marc Eversley think anyone is dumb enough to believe they aren't in the midst of a rebuild or that this team will be anything better than abysmal this season.
I feel bad for anybody that has to cover this organization because it's no longer worth covering at this point. I don't even understand why Reinsdorf is still interested in owning the Bulls. He could easily sell, walk away with 5 or 6 billion and never worry about them again in his life. But nooooooooo. Let's hold onto the team for the fuck of it and drag anybody who's ever remotely cared about it through the worst kinda sports purgatory there is.
I hope Jerry Reinsdorf chokes on whatever he's stuffing his fat face with at this point in life. Rat bastard. I would say burn in Hell, but the Bulls are already in Hell which makes Jerry Reinsdorf SATAN HIMSELF.
I'm afraid the reason may be Mickey is telling dad to keep the team. When Jerry 'leaves' Bulls would go from an old bastard who doesn't care, to a 'young' incompetent who cares.
Oh please, what else are ya gonna do all winter long? Read a book? Learn a language? Go deer hunting? Finish those honey-do projects around the house? I’d rather drink beer and boo da Bulls!!!
Lol I'm out in LA so my winter months are usually spent doing outdoor activities. Also there's football until February, and then college basketball. The Bulls will most certainly be last on my watch list this season. I'll pick the NBA season up when it matters: The Playoffs!!
It's kind of crazy to think that there's probably a whole generation of Bulls fans out there that basically don't care about the playoffs because their team is rarely in them and doesn't even prioritize trying to make them. The play-in is enough for Jerry and co.
Agree. I feel bad about it, as I love basketball and have been a fan for almost 40 years but I just can't see watching any games. Last year I didn't watch any NBA until playoffs. It just seems like waste of time to watch the Bulls
Life’s a waste of time, so wasting it on waste makes perfect sense. I’ll be watching for five stages of grief as the team and us sorry-ass fans go through it: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance
I know you're mostly just venting and not actually asking for responses to the questions you pose, but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm bored at work.
Why does anyone root for this team despite the fact that ownership not-so-subtly does not care about it? Well, because most fans don't even know who the owner is. Sadly, those of us who are absolutely obsessed with this team and see all the goings on from ownership/management are probably less than 1% of the Bulls fanbase. The vast majority just like the team for whatever reason (from Illinois, like the logo, like MJ, etc.) and don't realize it's owned by a greedy prick and run by a clueless guy from Lithuania.
Continuing on with the point above, it's not insulting that AKME think people are dumb enough to believe they aren't in a rebuild because the vast majority of fans don't pay close enough attention to realize it. If AKME says they're not rebuilding, 95% of fans will believe they're not rebuilding. Again, we are a very small minority.
Why is Jerry not interested in selling? Well, he's old af and couldn't use the billions he'd make before he dies. He's already got all the money he could possibly spend before he dies, so why sell and have to pay hundreds of millions, if not billions, in taxes on the sale of the team? I read somewhere that if he passes the team off to Michael, Michael could then sell it and not have to pay taxes on it (or at least far less taxes) since he inherited it. I have no idea if that's actually true, so if anyone wants to correct me on that, that's totally fine. But assuming it is true, that's another reason not to sell.
Overall, I do agree with where you're coming from. Being a diehard Bulls fan absolutely sucks because we get to see how shitty of an organization it is. Our only hope is that Jerry dies soon and Michael sells the team as quickly as he can and happens to sell it to someone who's very serious about changing the image of the organization. Or I suppose the NBA could step in and force Jerry to sell to someone serious because he's managed to turn the team in their third biggest market into a joke.
The federal government and Illinois both have estate taxes that would apply. That applies to both businesses & cash. The only advantage I can see to not selling is if they can undervalue it for tax reporting purposes. Selling it would give a much more precise value to the state.
Michael almost certainly would have to sell the Bulls to cover his estate tax. The Illinois & federal tax combined is over 55% for anything over $10M. The Bulls are valued at $5B & the White Sox at $2B.
As I understand it, neither the Bulls nor Sox are owned individually by the Reinsdorf, they are simply the controlling shareholder. How does that work when Jerry dies? Can he just pass enough shares to Michael to give him control to minimize tax exposure? What about the other heirs?
I suspect there is a way for Jerry to die without the teams being forced to be sold to pay taxes on his death...
I'm *not* an expert, just a rando that's done a little reading. So take everything I say with a grain of salt.
Federal estate taxes explicitly include stock & real estate (along with a lot more). I'm not certain about the details of the Illinois law.
You can use an irrevocable trust to bypass estate taxes, but that involves giving up a lot of control. There might be some ways around that loss of control, but I know little about this.
The Bulls and White Sox ownership structure is so complex and secretive that nobody knows who owns the teams and how it’s structured. I’ve heard that over the past decade or so, Jerry has been buying out a lot of the minority owners of the Bulls so that he has a majority share.
Okay, this is how the Sox and Bulls are structured and why they are run the way they are:
1. There is a Limited Partnership with (at last count) 27 partners, including Reinsdorf.
2. A good number of the Limited Partners are dead and their interest is controlled by a family trust. Many of these Limited Partners who are more lively than the dead ones are controlled by trusts as well. You know some of the names of the Limited Partners, including ex-gov Bruce Rauner and many of Reinsdorf's original partners or people who didn't sell when he took over, like the family of Lamar Hunt. About the only sales of Limited Partnerships that happen are when someone dies and the estate is liquidated rather than being held by a family trust. I believe there are serious restrictions on sales of Limited Partnerships.
3. As a side note: for every family trust that is among the 27 Limited Partners, you have to be aware there are also multiple members of each family trust (the heirs of whoever died or put their interests into the trust) — the beneficiaries who just want their monthly/quarterly/annual check and don't really care where it comes from. Important to remember this when you think about why the Bulls are run the way they are.
4. The Limited Partnership voices its concerns via a board of directors they elect from among their members. There are 10 members and these have barely changed in a decade. They don't do much at all, because...
5. Above this Limited Parternship is something called a GENERAL Partnership. This is the key to the whole structure. The General Partnership is chartered to control all business moves, including personnel, strategic decisions, etc. of the Limited Partnership. Reinsdorf owns 100% of this General Partnership.
6. The White Sox Limited Partners are a much more opaque group, or was last I paid attention to it, though it is known that some, maybe as many as 50% of the Bulls Limited Partners were also White Sox Limited Partners.
7. None of this is secretive or obscure for the Bulls. The Bulls Limited Partners are now and have always been listed in the team media guide.
8. If there is any confusion about the Bulls' structure, it's the question of "Why would anyone want to do this?" The truth is they don't, not today. All of the greedy little outstretched hands of Sam Zell and Lamar Hunt's heirs make anything other than "generating as much cash as possible every year" hard to imagine. It was useful to Reinsdorf in 1985 because he could "own" a team without buying it all or having any ACTUAL partnerships. Even today, with his investment having grown by truly astronomical figures, he still couldn't afford to "take the team private" so to speak by buying out this ridiculous structure.
Likewise, new investors would want some degree of control and accountability rather than the assurance that Jerry's always taken care of them. Jerry's only way to pretend to be a big boy owner of a team in the 3rd largest media market is to rely on the passive investments of a bunch of dead guys.
9. Someone who is an accountant will have to testify on how taxable this will be when Reinsdorf dies and passes his General Partnership shares to his estate. Jerry made his first small fortune helping people evade taxes so I assume he has exhausted all possibilities. Probably even many prestigious tax attorneys and accountants are a bit uncertain because Limited Partnerships are so rare. But I heard from someone who knew (he worked in the family office of Michael Heisley, late owner of the Grizzlies and true-blooded Reinsdorf hater) that the original Limited Partnership agreement allows the Limited Partners via their board of directors to compel a sale if any shares in the General Partnership are transferred.
Here’s the list of investors that I got from the 22-33 media guide:
Carmont Blitz Family
Norman Jacobs
Jerry Reinsdorf
Neil Bluhm
Robert A. Judelson
William Roberts
The Fred Brzozowski Trust
Lubin Family Limited Partnership Iiving Stenn
The Alvin Cohn Trust
Ann Lurie
Richard Stern
Lester Crown Family
Judd Malkin
The Sanford E. Takiff Family
Louis Duman Family
Allan B. Muchin
Burton Ury
The Fanning Trust
Carol P. Norton
The Charles Walsh Family
The Marvin Fink Trust
David H. Orth, M.D.
Chicago Stadium Corporation
The Lamar Hunt Family
Bruce V. Rauner
Sam Zell
You’re right that are a lot of trusts that have an ownership stake in the Bulls. I’m 97% sure that the Chicago Stadium Corporation is the Wirtz family.
The estate of Arthur Wirtz were legacy owners when Reinsdorf bought in, so you're probably right. Muchin and Judelson are longtime partners of Reinsdorf in various real estate schemes back to the days of Balcor Real Estate. They are both on the board and are basically family. Michael and Jerry are on the board too. David Orth is employed by the team as an ophthalmologist (probably not a super lucrative sinecure or anything). So Reinsdorf has 5 board members out of 10 who are family and business associates, in reality he has 10 out of 10, all of them are supportive because he's better than buying Apple: their investment has skyrocketed and they even get a dividend every year.
A street dealer though could take one look at this and point out the obvious (and incurable) shortcomings.
You know, somehow it's actually reassuring that behind the cool basketball shit it's actually "undead REIT Voltron" in there. That works for me, logically as well as poetically.
Thank you for understanding that I was just venting as a pissed off and tired Bulls fan. I just hate that Jerry Reinsdorf has the money and power to make this team great, a la the Warriors saying screw it let's eat the luxury tax and go to 6 Finals, win 4 of them, and breed a whole new generation of fans for our organization.
Yep. I have no proof for this, but I bet that Warriors ownership has made more money over the past decade than Jerry has, even though they've also spent WAY more money than Jerry has.
This reminds me of an epic rant that I unfortunately can't find anymore about how terrible American small cars were in the 70s and 80s.
The jist of it was that there were lots of reasons, but a big chunk of it was that the Big 3 were lazy assholes and thought that they had American consumers locked up, that they had no choice, that they'd buy whatever the Big 3 sold them, and what they wanted to sell them were big, low-effort cars.
This sort of mindset manifested itself in a variety of ways, but could be summarized by saying that the Big 3 didn't really *WANT* to make good small cars that could compete with Japanese imports, and to some degree they could even be seen as punishing consumers who asked for small, efficient cars by building a bunch of POS cars that rusted (Vega), blew up (Pinto), or generally fell apart.
I get that sense from the Bulls. They seem to gleefully serve up slop and have the temerity to act offended if you don't think it's the cat's ass. They have a somewhat captive audience, so they still sell more than you'd think given their terrible product, but they've receded from being global icons to being a bunch of busters while the rest of the basketball world has left them far behind.
The only difference being if the Bulls are the Big 3 from the 70s and 80s, there are no Japanese automakers stealing their sales. I think the only way that would happen is if Chicago got a second NBA franchise.
I disagree with this. The rest of the league and the rest of the entertainment world are absolutely stealing their sales. Of course the rest of the league is stealing their sales.
Not every sale, of course, but that's true of the Big 3 too. They're still in business, they're just diminished relative to the global market they once dominated.
That's how the Bulls are. They're still in business, but where 30 years ago they were the biggest fish in the pond, now they're a medium sized fish in an ocean.
It's not entirely the same though. The Big 3 have been bailed out numerous times by the government. The Bulls have never been bailed out by the NBA.
The Bulls were also sixth in merch sales during the first half of this past season and were fifth in merch sales for the first half of the 22-23 season. They've also led the league in attendance for the past three years. Yes, they have a huge stadium but they still sell a ton of tickets, even if many of them are corporate purchases, etc.
So yes, they aren't the biggest fish in the pond anymore, but they also haven't gotten anywhere near being in hot water yet like the Big 3 have. And I just don't see that happening unless there's another NBA team in Chicago.
TL;DR: Things got bad quickly for the Big 3 to the point where they realized they had to change or they would go out of business. That hasn't happened for the Bulls and I'm not sure it can without more direct competition.
Let's start a GoFundMe to raise $10B to buy the Bulls (high enough $$ that Jerry would have a hard time justifying rejecting the offer). We'll structure it similarly to the Green Bay Packers. Shares will cost $10 each (so young fans can buy in) and no one can own more than 500k shares (to prevent any one party from dominating the votes). No benefits to owning shares other than voting on the Board of Directors.
At an average of 100 shares ($1k), it would take 10M people. An average of 500 shares ($5k) would drop that down to 2M. And as popular as the Bulls are worldwide, I guarantee there were be tons of fans across the globe picking up a share or two just to be part of this.
As for operations... new VP & GM will be the first order of business and the initial instructions to the Board (written into the charter) will require them to use a non-standard method of selecting a GM... something like a worldwide Basketball GM game competition (details TBD). Then pay for the VP & GM will be pro-rated. They don't only get paid for their work, they also get paid for successes after they leave, encouraging the VP & GM to took to the future, as well as trying to max out their current situation (again, details TBD).
All of this will spark additional interest in the Bulls and get more people to buy in initially.
While tearing down a team to start a rebuild may be the easy part*, doing it well may actually be the hardest part. You have to make tough and shrewd negotiations but still end up making the deal. Once teams know you're tearing down, they won't be willing to give up anything of value. This is why what the Spurs did was so good. They traded away their two best players (sorta) but did it in consecutive seasons.
The Bulls could have done it similarly. They could have traded LaVine 18 months ago when the Lakers really wanted him, and then let Vucevic walk - likely in a sign-and-trade - and gotten something of value for both. They wouldn't have lost any credibility for "tanking" because they still would have had DeRozan, Drummond, and Caruso. They could have then traded those 3 guys for a some pretty good returns 6 months ago.
But that would have taken SOME foresight (though not a lot because plenty of people were clamoring for exactly those moves), and some courage. It's not easy - even if yfBB suggests it is.
I also disagree that Vucevic and LaVine don't make a difference. They're not great players, but they're also not bad. The players who would take their minutes - some combination of Dalen Terry, Matas Buzelis, Jalen Smith, Adama Sanogo - are actually bad. 60 minutes of LaVine and Vucevic or 60 minutes MORE of those guys, across a season, is likely to be the difference of 2-5 wins. That could be enough to drop them low enough to finish in the 11th spot.
Now I get that anything that's not average or better (i.e. trying to win) is the same to yfBB, but there is a difference in quality of bad at the bottom of the Conferences.
*I don't know that I wholly agree, because I think it's really hard for some teams to do it - they are of the friendly bulls blogger mindset that tearing down is never good, and thus would never actually tear down; hell, an argument can be made that Bulls haven't even completed the tear down as they still have two high-profile players on their team.
I was rooting around Basketball Reference the other day and was surprised to be reminded that the glorious Lonzo Ball Era that everyone gets misty-eyed about lasted all of 35 games. That's it. That's all he played for the Chicago Bulls. That was what management used as an excuse for the last 164 games of aimless nihilism. 35 games is less than the number of games Greg Oden started for Portland. Sam Bowie in his rookie season played 76. In the ravaged, strike-shortened season before his injury in the playoffs, Derrick Rose still played 39. I can go on and on.
Longtime NBA trainer Chris Johnson, who has worked with multiple Bulls in the past (Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson, Joakim Noah, Rajon Rondo), posted to his YouTube channel a long video of Lonzo Ball getting some run in with NBA players. Ball’s J looks pure.
I find total negativity to be boring. We can't change the past, so I'm always looking at how things can get better and what is a realistic success for the season?
0. AKME getting fired. This is a pipe dream, but would immediately make the season a success. Just ignore it for the purposes of the rest of this comment.
1. Giddey improves his 3PT shot & defense.
2. Matas improving enough to merit a lot of playing time. I feel like his court vision & instincts are good enough that some big steps defensively are possible.
3. Lonzo being healthy enough and playing well enough to get legit playing time.
4. Zach traded before the deadline without sending a pick out.
5. Make the playoffs or keep our pick.
If these happened, I would be stoked, no matter what our record was.
I'm curious what other people think a successful season would look like?
That's a tough question. When you say "make the playoffs" my mind immediately goes "NOOOOO" in Darth Vader's voice. However, if all the previous points happened which led to the Bulls making the playoffs (ie. Giddey takes a huge step forward, Matas takes a big step forward, etc.) then I guess I wouldn't be that mad. Losing the pick would still suck, but they'd have some clear young talent on the team to work with.
The problem is I don't see all those things happening. I think I'd be pretty happy if even one or two of those things happened this season. If I had my way, I think I'd go the opposite direction you did.
1. Zach miraculously gets traded before the season starts and the Bulls don't have to include any picks.
2. Vooch mysteriously suffers from a serious injury and misses most of the season.
3. We get a starting lineup of Giddey, Coby, Pat, Matas, Smith and we're absolutely terrible, but all of our young guys get tons of playing time.
4. Someone offers an insane deal to take Coby at the trade deadline and AK sells high for the first time in his life and realizes it's a great feeling.
5. The lottery gods show their favor on the Bulls and they get the #1 pick.
6. We find out Vooch has secretly been dealing fentanyl to his rich neighbors and ends up getting kicked off the team and the final year of his contract is voided.
Okay, I may have gotten a little carried away there, but you get the gist. And I should probably clarify that I'm not being negative here. More just saying I think the Bulls have a better chance at success by being really bad than they do at their young pieces all taking significant steps forward.
I get what you mean about looking constructively being more fun, but I actually do think there is no way this season can be successful. Good things can happen-- and you outlined some of them-- but they won't make for a successful season.
To me a successful season is about one of three things: 1) actual achievements or 2) changes that open up new strategic opportunities or 3) changes that indicate a particular positive strategic focus. Everything you mentioned would be good, yet none of it amounts to an accomplishment (they simply are not making the playoffs) or a shift in strategic outlook. In my opinion, they are not at the point where a successful season is even possible.
To win in the NBA you need a legit star and the Bulls don't have one. We can talk about developing young talent all we want but even if everyone on this roster reaches their absolute ceiling we're talking about a 40 to 42 win team. The only thing the front office should be concerned with is getting a star. Much easier said than done but you have to put yourself in a position to maximize your chances of getting one. That means being bad for one year in anticipation of a loaded draft class. Losing the pick would be an absolute disaster.
I think that is incredibly shitty for a 'competitive' sports league and a franchise that has inherent advantages, but ultimately true. I suppose a deeper question is if AKME realizes this and would there be a way to say it. Or at least signal it. I don't think they do and are only indicating a shared delusion, but also don't have a counterfactual for what they should be doing/saying instead. I suppose draft picks instead of 'experienced young players' would be an easy distinction
Let me ask a thought-experiment question: if Jayson Tatum were somehow just dropped on the Bulls tomorrow (let's say for cap purposes just delete Patrick, Ayo, Carter, Duarte, and Terry off the team), what do you think the Bull's prospects would look like over the next 3 years? Like, what do you think they'd win this year? Max wins over the 3-year period?
The problem is, if we don't lose the high pick in '25, we're going to lose it in 26. Or 27.
Which get's to TheMoon's point. We're not just "a star" away, and then we can suddenly turn around in a year.
Say we get Cooper Flagg next year. Awesome! Better than not getting him.
But... Coby (expiring contract), Ayo (expiring contract), Vuc (sucks, expiring contract) and probably whatever junk we get for Zach are gonna be either gone or much more expensive.
The 26-27 Bulls would be
Flagg
Pat
Matas
Jalen Smith
Julian Phillips
(No incoming first round pick because we gave it to the Spurs)
Now, maybe you re-sign Ayo and Coby (again, to more expensive deals), but even if Flagg is the second coming, that team is more than a Coby and Ayo away from being anything. And the cupboard is pretty bare as far as draft picks for adding talent or making trades.
What I'm getting at is, this team isn't even in position to build if it's given a great player up front. We're that far behind.
I think fondness for Derrick as well as a justifiable antipathy for GarPax have combined to obscure something about the last time this team was really good; which is that to get where they got they needed not only an MVP caliber player, but also like a half dozen terrific personnel decisions to support it, and a fringe all star already on the team. You know, kinda like the fuckin Knicks right now. Flagg on the Bulls is like KG on the Wolves.
There's this story in one of Nietzsche's works about medieval French peasants during Lent. They can't eat meat but like, they live in central France and might not stray more than 10 miles from their village their whole lives, so where are they getting protein for their already strained diet if not from meat?
Here's a lawyerly solution they came up with: if you make a kind of rope basket around a hunk of mutton and lower it into your well and let it hang out in the water for a bit, it's basically a fish now, right? I have no reason to think God disagreed.
They have Thibs. They have a big time scoring point guard. They have a beefy, skilled PF. They have a big defensive wing from Africa by way of the UK. They all play 45 mins a game. They're GM is named Rose. Close enough. It's basically fish. No heresy detected.
“Since Lonzo Ball’s injury, we haven’t been able to achieve the results we could have. It disrupted us a lot," claims Vucevic.
"When he played, we were at the top of the East for a while, which maybe wasn’t a realistic result, even though we were playing well, but with him, we would have fought for anything between third and sixth place in the end."
"The rest of us focus more on scoring: LaVine, DeRozan, and me. He brought us all together, sped up the game, meant a lot on defense, guarding the best players with Caruso… Although his numbers might not have been impressive, he meant a lot to us."
"We tried with young players, and then we had numerous injuries. Trade talks also affected us, preventing us from achieving the results we thought we could, but when results don’t follow, changes come…"
"DeRozan left, Caruso left, the team got younger, and they wanted to go in a different direction. We’ll see how the season goes, and then decisions will be made based on that.”
The simple answer is the season is for the Reinsdorfs. Maximize profits, sell an inferior product at the highest price possible to the greatest amount of suckers, er, customers. Avoid luxury tax and collect profit sharing, and keep the first round pick (it has value in trades, yet allows the Bulls to add a cheap rookie instead of an expensive vet). Focus on cheap marketing instead of spending on improvements. Get the bag, not the playoffs
Time to contract the Bulls, NBA needs a real franchise in Chicago
"Zach will never play here" assumes that there will be someone in the near future who will offer anything for him. That's far from certain which is why I think such confidence on that issue is misplaced. He can't sit out a season where he's healthy. He's going to have to swallow some pride and play basketball, at an intermittently professional effort level, for that $40 million.
From my perspective both parties deserve this.
I think Matt is saying Zach won't play because he believes Zach and the Bulls will come to an agreement not to play him until he's traded. I don't think he's saying Zach won't play because he'll be traded before the season starts.
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with his take, but I believe that's what he's saying.
Yeah, I just don't see any reason the Bulls and Zach agree to not play him until he's traded. If they do, he's never going to be traded because nobody is going to trade for Zach until they see him play. At least not an offer the Bulls should accept.
I don't see it, they know he can play. He's healthy. Have him go to training camp and have Donovan, KC Johnson, and Rich Paul talk about how great he looks. Starting him with Giddey and White and giving up 135 points does nothing IMO
Nah. A lot of teams aren’t going to take their word for it. Last year at this time Ben Simmons was finally healthy.
And, let’s face the facts and say that both Klutch in general and Zach Lavine in particular have some reputational deficits to overcome.
If I were thinking about trading for Zach, I’d like to see how he navigates the situation, and I’d be more favorable to trading for him if he showed the discipline and mentality to play out the string.
Because at some point, things will be tougher on my team too after I trade for him, and I want to see how he reacts.
I think if I were to bet on the Zach situation, I'd bet on:
Zach joins team. Zach starts.
I just think all other options are worse for him and the Bulls already know he doesn't have a market. Nothing to lose from playing him. And having a healthy max player on the bench is just too awkward for all sides.
there is something to lose, he could play like crap and/or get hurt again.
to a lesser extent shitty vibes impacting the guys who will remain here and Billy Donovan
Should have been phrased as: His market can't go further down, it has bottomed out.
one could've (and likely did) say this last season
In my best Bill Simmons voice: "Are we sure Zach is still good?"
I mean "good" in the way he was "good" before. In 2020/21 Zach put up video game numbers: 28ppg an nearly 50/40/90 shooting (he shot 50/41/85). His 3 point shooting % has fallen every season since then. He just took the lowest % of his shots at the rim than at any time in his career and it wasn't very close. Those have been replaced by 3s, so maybe it's a function of the personnel around him, but his 3pt% was the 2nd lowest of his career (lowest was a tie between rookie year and his 1st in Chicago when he was recovering from an ACL).
Maybe it's just because of how pissy he was last year. Maybe it's personnel and scheme and that's why he hates Billy Donovan so much. Or maybe it's an accumulation of a rather alarming number of "injuries Zach played through for awhile but eventually had surgery on." He had an ACL in the left knee in 2017, an "arthroscopic procedure" in the same knee in 2022, and foot surgery last February. Maybe we're wrong to believe the team's bitchy note about the last one (these are not precisely the same people but the same org and some of the same people who whispered that Luol Deng was dogging an injury).
Yet ironically if he is diminished and diminishing, Zach has even less reason to let that on than the Bulls do. He wants out, and the one thing the Lakers badly need from an acquisition is someone who can play right now, before the rest of Lebron's beard goes gray.
I think that's a big part of the whole "rehabilitating his value" point.
The decline from 20/21 to 22/23 is not that big, but last season he fell off a cliff. He started the season shooting like crap, and when he came back he was better but not by a lot.
If I am a GM, even if I know that he's not THAT injury prone, and that the surgery was elective and that he has issues with Bulls management, I want to see him return to borderline All Star form before I trade for him.
also my broader point isn't whether or not Zach plays this season, but that it makes zero difference in the future of the team or this year's entertainment product if he plays this season or gets traded for contract flotsam.
unless it is truly the case where 'the market' is insisting the Bulls give up a first round pick to move Zach, and wouldn't if they see him play for a 2-14 Bulls team that gets asked every game why Zach is still there
Just hard disagree on this.
If Zach just sits on the sidelines, the "entertainment product" is by definition going to be a non-basketball soap opera. Every day, every game, the focus will uncomfortably be on why this supposedly healthy, great player isn't, you know, playing.
No matter what, it's not a good look, and there's a limit to how much the team and the player can talk this stuff away. The only way to really answer questions is to do it on the court.
And personally, I think the entertainment value of the dysfunction on the court is probably better than the entertainment value of Zach sitting out. Why?
Because if Zach is playing, that forces him and the rest of the team into an interesting set of situations and choices. I want to learn what the choices they make. And frankly, he's probably still the best player they have. So the level of basketball will be higher too.
On the other hand, without Zach, I'm completely uninterested in watching the Bulls. I'm sure Coby, Giddey, and Pat will put up some numbers, but everyone will when GIVEN a slot on a total shit team with no better options. I'd rather see how these guys play when they have a real option to pass it to, and a real option to take their minutes.
that's likely true. In a car crash kind of way it'll be more entertaining if Zach is around against his will
i don't think it moves a single ticket nor makes the game product any more entertaining. I suppose the level will be technically higher because he's better than other options, but he'll be playing out of position and completely uninvested
On the Athletic’s NBA pod, Andrew Schlecht and Fred Katz discussed each team’s national broadcast appearances. When noting the Bulls had 2, Katz said they got that 2nd appearance because the Chicago Bulls are “a fashion brand”.
That’s stuck with me for days. This team is a fashion brand. (So are the White Sox but at least they’re so historically awful they get covered.)
We need a name for the phenomenon where the only response to a post or point made about the Chicago Bulls is the statement: "Well, someday Reinsdorf will die."
“Son of Reinsdorf” was also scary but definitely not as good as the original.
My rooting interests have taken on something of a universal and moralistic cast. Thus, I'm rooting for the Bulls to get the 11th pick. It punishes the Bulls, who deserve it; and it rewards the Spurs, who also deserve it.
Soundtrack for this comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3_exRntgI
The Bulls, like the Blues, are so bad they’re good. It will be great train wreck theater. You all can’t wait to know the number of games before Zo gets reinjured, Zach gets traded, and Vuc draws a foul. I’m a fan of the dark arts and can’t wait to um learn more about um Giddey’s skills at slob wizardry and um public speaking (I haven’t practiced slob wizardry since college but it’s like riding a bike). PW, Coby, Ayo, and the new coke bottle glasses guy are all bound to break out. Finishing 11th this year is a best-case scenario since the protections are 1-8 the next two years. PS I really wanted to footnote my parentheses but that’s some yfbb wizardry!
The Bulls will have the fifth worst record, end up with the eighth pick ... and it will be a seven player draft.
The bottom five teams of the East are so bad this year that it’s going to be really hard for the Bulls to truly bottom out. The 11th pick is in play for them. Most sports books have them as the fifth worst team next season, but the difference between the fifth worst and eighth is only three games. The Bulls will be bad and boring next season.
ESPN just had them at 30 wins and the 10th seed, 4 games clear of 11th place
but this was just their "expert panel", if Kevin Pelton's models say something similar then I'll take notice
I was looking at the Vegas over unders.
It's not a disaster if Bulls have the worst record in the NBA if they can Kooper Cup in next year nba draft.
Do you think the Rams are gonna let him out of his contract to play basketball?
This team/organization is at a point where it feels safe to ask: WHY DOES ANYONE ROOT FOR OR SUPPORT THIS SHIT SHOW?!
It is glaringly obvious that the Reinsdorf's have absolutely NO interest in running or maintaining anything that resembles a professional sports team in not one, BUT TWO different sports. Why would anyone spend a moment of their time acting like they give a rat's ass when the people who are ACTUALLY supposed to give a rat's ass are just going through the motions to collect a check?
I find it INSULTING that Arturas Karnisovas and Marc Eversley think anyone is dumb enough to believe they aren't in the midst of a rebuild or that this team will be anything better than abysmal this season.
I feel bad for anybody that has to cover this organization because it's no longer worth covering at this point. I don't even understand why Reinsdorf is still interested in owning the Bulls. He could easily sell, walk away with 5 or 6 billion and never worry about them again in his life. But nooooooooo. Let's hold onto the team for the fuck of it and drag anybody who's ever remotely cared about it through the worst kinda sports purgatory there is.
I hope Jerry Reinsdorf chokes on whatever he's stuffing his fat face with at this point in life. Rat bastard. I would say burn in Hell, but the Bulls are already in Hell which makes Jerry Reinsdorf SATAN HIMSELF.
I'm afraid the reason may be Mickey is telling dad to keep the team. When Jerry 'leaves' Bulls would go from an old bastard who doesn't care, to a 'young' incompetent who cares.
Oh please, what else are ya gonna do all winter long? Read a book? Learn a language? Go deer hunting? Finish those honey-do projects around the house? I’d rather drink beer and boo da Bulls!!!
Lol I'm out in LA so my winter months are usually spent doing outdoor activities. Also there's football until February, and then college basketball. The Bulls will most certainly be last on my watch list this season. I'll pick the NBA season up when it matters: The Playoffs!!
It's kind of crazy to think that there's probably a whole generation of Bulls fans out there that basically don't care about the playoffs because their team is rarely in them and doesn't even prioritize trying to make them. The play-in is enough for Jerry and co.
Makes me sick how far we done fell.
Agree. I feel bad about it, as I love basketball and have been a fan for almost 40 years but I just can't see watching any games. Last year I didn't watch any NBA until playoffs. It just seems like waste of time to watch the Bulls
Life’s a waste of time, so wasting it on waste makes perfect sense. I’ll be watching for five stages of grief as the team and us sorry-ass fans go through it: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance
I know you're mostly just venting and not actually asking for responses to the questions you pose, but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm bored at work.
Why does anyone root for this team despite the fact that ownership not-so-subtly does not care about it? Well, because most fans don't even know who the owner is. Sadly, those of us who are absolutely obsessed with this team and see all the goings on from ownership/management are probably less than 1% of the Bulls fanbase. The vast majority just like the team for whatever reason (from Illinois, like the logo, like MJ, etc.) and don't realize it's owned by a greedy prick and run by a clueless guy from Lithuania.
Continuing on with the point above, it's not insulting that AKME think people are dumb enough to believe they aren't in a rebuild because the vast majority of fans don't pay close enough attention to realize it. If AKME says they're not rebuilding, 95% of fans will believe they're not rebuilding. Again, we are a very small minority.
Why is Jerry not interested in selling? Well, he's old af and couldn't use the billions he'd make before he dies. He's already got all the money he could possibly spend before he dies, so why sell and have to pay hundreds of millions, if not billions, in taxes on the sale of the team? I read somewhere that if he passes the team off to Michael, Michael could then sell it and not have to pay taxes on it (or at least far less taxes) since he inherited it. I have no idea if that's actually true, so if anyone wants to correct me on that, that's totally fine. But assuming it is true, that's another reason not to sell.
Overall, I do agree with where you're coming from. Being a diehard Bulls fan absolutely sucks because we get to see how shitty of an organization it is. Our only hope is that Jerry dies soon and Michael sells the team as quickly as he can and happens to sell it to someone who's very serious about changing the image of the organization. Or I suppose the NBA could step in and force Jerry to sell to someone serious because he's managed to turn the team in their third biggest market into a joke.
The federal government and Illinois both have estate taxes that would apply. That applies to both businesses & cash. The only advantage I can see to not selling is if they can undervalue it for tax reporting purposes. Selling it would give a much more precise value to the state.
Michael almost certainly would have to sell the Bulls to cover his estate tax. The Illinois & federal tax combined is over 55% for anything over $10M. The Bulls are valued at $5B & the White Sox at $2B.
As I understand it, neither the Bulls nor Sox are owned individually by the Reinsdorf, they are simply the controlling shareholder. How does that work when Jerry dies? Can he just pass enough shares to Michael to give him control to minimize tax exposure? What about the other heirs?
I suspect there is a way for Jerry to die without the teams being forced to be sold to pay taxes on his death...
I'm *not* an expert, just a rando that's done a little reading. So take everything I say with a grain of salt.
Federal estate taxes explicitly include stock & real estate (along with a lot more). I'm not certain about the details of the Illinois law.
You can use an irrevocable trust to bypass estate taxes, but that involves giving up a lot of control. There might be some ways around that loss of control, but I know little about this.
The Bulls and White Sox ownership structure is so complex and secretive that nobody knows who owns the teams and how it’s structured. I’ve heard that over the past decade or so, Jerry has been buying out a lot of the minority owners of the Bulls so that he has a majority share.
Okay, this is how the Sox and Bulls are structured and why they are run the way they are:
1. There is a Limited Partnership with (at last count) 27 partners, including Reinsdorf.
2. A good number of the Limited Partners are dead and their interest is controlled by a family trust. Many of these Limited Partners who are more lively than the dead ones are controlled by trusts as well. You know some of the names of the Limited Partners, including ex-gov Bruce Rauner and many of Reinsdorf's original partners or people who didn't sell when he took over, like the family of Lamar Hunt. About the only sales of Limited Partnerships that happen are when someone dies and the estate is liquidated rather than being held by a family trust. I believe there are serious restrictions on sales of Limited Partnerships.
3. As a side note: for every family trust that is among the 27 Limited Partners, you have to be aware there are also multiple members of each family trust (the heirs of whoever died or put their interests into the trust) — the beneficiaries who just want their monthly/quarterly/annual check and don't really care where it comes from. Important to remember this when you think about why the Bulls are run the way they are.
4. The Limited Partnership voices its concerns via a board of directors they elect from among their members. There are 10 members and these have barely changed in a decade. They don't do much at all, because...
5. Above this Limited Parternship is something called a GENERAL Partnership. This is the key to the whole structure. The General Partnership is chartered to control all business moves, including personnel, strategic decisions, etc. of the Limited Partnership. Reinsdorf owns 100% of this General Partnership.
6. The White Sox Limited Partners are a much more opaque group, or was last I paid attention to it, though it is known that some, maybe as many as 50% of the Bulls Limited Partners were also White Sox Limited Partners.
7. None of this is secretive or obscure for the Bulls. The Bulls Limited Partners are now and have always been listed in the team media guide.
8. If there is any confusion about the Bulls' structure, it's the question of "Why would anyone want to do this?" The truth is they don't, not today. All of the greedy little outstretched hands of Sam Zell and Lamar Hunt's heirs make anything other than "generating as much cash as possible every year" hard to imagine. It was useful to Reinsdorf in 1985 because he could "own" a team without buying it all or having any ACTUAL partnerships. Even today, with his investment having grown by truly astronomical figures, he still couldn't afford to "take the team private" so to speak by buying out this ridiculous structure.
Likewise, new investors would want some degree of control and accountability rather than the assurance that Jerry's always taken care of them. Jerry's only way to pretend to be a big boy owner of a team in the 3rd largest media market is to rely on the passive investments of a bunch of dead guys.
9. Someone who is an accountant will have to testify on how taxable this will be when Reinsdorf dies and passes his General Partnership shares to his estate. Jerry made his first small fortune helping people evade taxes so I assume he has exhausted all possibilities. Probably even many prestigious tax attorneys and accountants are a bit uncertain because Limited Partnerships are so rare. But I heard from someone who knew (he worked in the family office of Michael Heisley, late owner of the Grizzlies and true-blooded Reinsdorf hater) that the original Limited Partnership agreement allows the Limited Partners via their board of directors to compel a sale if any shares in the General Partnership are transferred.
Here’s the list of investors that I got from the 22-33 media guide:
Carmont Blitz Family
Norman Jacobs
Jerry Reinsdorf
Neil Bluhm
Robert A. Judelson
William Roberts
The Fred Brzozowski Trust
Lubin Family Limited Partnership Iiving Stenn
The Alvin Cohn Trust
Ann Lurie
Richard Stern
Lester Crown Family
Judd Malkin
The Sanford E. Takiff Family
Louis Duman Family
Allan B. Muchin
Burton Ury
The Fanning Trust
Carol P. Norton
The Charles Walsh Family
The Marvin Fink Trust
David H. Orth, M.D.
Chicago Stadium Corporation
The Lamar Hunt Family
Bruce V. Rauner
Sam Zell
You’re right that are a lot of trusts that have an ownership stake in the Bulls. I’m 97% sure that the Chicago Stadium Corporation is the Wirtz family.
The estate of Arthur Wirtz were legacy owners when Reinsdorf bought in, so you're probably right. Muchin and Judelson are longtime partners of Reinsdorf in various real estate schemes back to the days of Balcor Real Estate. They are both on the board and are basically family. Michael and Jerry are on the board too. David Orth is employed by the team as an ophthalmologist (probably not a super lucrative sinecure or anything). So Reinsdorf has 5 board members out of 10 who are family and business associates, in reality he has 10 out of 10, all of them are supportive because he's better than buying Apple: their investment has skyrocketed and they even get a dividend every year.
A street dealer though could take one look at this and point out the obvious (and incurable) shortcomings.
Legalize nerd alert! Love, KC
You know, somehow it's actually reassuring that behind the cool basketball shit it's actually "undead REIT Voltron" in there. That works for me, logically as well as poetically.
Cool, thanks for the clarification on that!
Thank you for understanding that I was just venting as a pissed off and tired Bulls fan. I just hate that Jerry Reinsdorf has the money and power to make this team great, a la the Warriors saying screw it let's eat the luxury tax and go to 6 Finals, win 4 of them, and breed a whole new generation of fans for our organization.
Yep. I have no proof for this, but I bet that Warriors ownership has made more money over the past decade than Jerry has, even though they've also spent WAY more money than Jerry has.
This reminds me of an epic rant that I unfortunately can't find anymore about how terrible American small cars were in the 70s and 80s.
The jist of it was that there were lots of reasons, but a big chunk of it was that the Big 3 were lazy assholes and thought that they had American consumers locked up, that they had no choice, that they'd buy whatever the Big 3 sold them, and what they wanted to sell them were big, low-effort cars.
This sort of mindset manifested itself in a variety of ways, but could be summarized by saying that the Big 3 didn't really *WANT* to make good small cars that could compete with Japanese imports, and to some degree they could even be seen as punishing consumers who asked for small, efficient cars by building a bunch of POS cars that rusted (Vega), blew up (Pinto), or generally fell apart.
I get that sense from the Bulls. They seem to gleefully serve up slop and have the temerity to act offended if you don't think it's the cat's ass. They have a somewhat captive audience, so they still sell more than you'd think given their terrible product, but they've receded from being global icons to being a bunch of busters while the rest of the basketball world has left them far behind.
The only difference being if the Bulls are the Big 3 from the 70s and 80s, there are no Japanese automakers stealing their sales. I think the only way that would happen is if Chicago got a second NBA franchise.
I disagree with this. The rest of the league and the rest of the entertainment world are absolutely stealing their sales. Of course the rest of the league is stealing their sales.
Not every sale, of course, but that's true of the Big 3 too. They're still in business, they're just diminished relative to the global market they once dominated.
That's how the Bulls are. They're still in business, but where 30 years ago they were the biggest fish in the pond, now they're a medium sized fish in an ocean.
In short, they blew it.
It's not entirely the same though. The Big 3 have been bailed out numerous times by the government. The Bulls have never been bailed out by the NBA.
The Bulls were also sixth in merch sales during the first half of this past season and were fifth in merch sales for the first half of the 22-23 season. They've also led the league in attendance for the past three years. Yes, they have a huge stadium but they still sell a ton of tickets, even if many of them are corporate purchases, etc.
So yes, they aren't the biggest fish in the pond anymore, but they also haven't gotten anywhere near being in hot water yet like the Big 3 have. And I just don't see that happening unless there's another NBA team in Chicago.
TL;DR: Things got bad quickly for the Big 3 to the point where they realized they had to change or they would go out of business. That hasn't happened for the Bulls and I'm not sure it can without more direct competition.
https://x.com/NBA/status/1752330856088121350
https://x.com/NBAPR/status/1616480697878708228
https://www.espn.com/nba/attendance
No thing is exactly like some other thing.
I wouldn’t call the Big3’s slide particularly speedy, it’s taken 50 years!
This is very true!
All right. Hear me out.
Let's start a GoFundMe to raise $10B to buy the Bulls (high enough $$ that Jerry would have a hard time justifying rejecting the offer). We'll structure it similarly to the Green Bay Packers. Shares will cost $10 each (so young fans can buy in) and no one can own more than 500k shares (to prevent any one party from dominating the votes). No benefits to owning shares other than voting on the Board of Directors.
At an average of 100 shares ($1k), it would take 10M people. An average of 500 shares ($5k) would drop that down to 2M. And as popular as the Bulls are worldwide, I guarantee there were be tons of fans across the globe picking up a share or two just to be part of this.
As for operations... new VP & GM will be the first order of business and the initial instructions to the Board (written into the charter) will require them to use a non-standard method of selecting a GM... something like a worldwide Basketball GM game competition (details TBD). Then pay for the VP & GM will be pro-rated. They don't only get paid for their work, they also get paid for successes after they leave, encouraging the VP & GM to took to the future, as well as trying to max out their current situation (again, details TBD).
All of this will spark additional interest in the Bulls and get more people to buy in initially.
What do you think?
While tearing down a team to start a rebuild may be the easy part*, doing it well may actually be the hardest part. You have to make tough and shrewd negotiations but still end up making the deal. Once teams know you're tearing down, they won't be willing to give up anything of value. This is why what the Spurs did was so good. They traded away their two best players (sorta) but did it in consecutive seasons.
The Bulls could have done it similarly. They could have traded LaVine 18 months ago when the Lakers really wanted him, and then let Vucevic walk - likely in a sign-and-trade - and gotten something of value for both. They wouldn't have lost any credibility for "tanking" because they still would have had DeRozan, Drummond, and Caruso. They could have then traded those 3 guys for a some pretty good returns 6 months ago.
But that would have taken SOME foresight (though not a lot because plenty of people were clamoring for exactly those moves), and some courage. It's not easy - even if yfBB suggests it is.
I also disagree that Vucevic and LaVine don't make a difference. They're not great players, but they're also not bad. The players who would take their minutes - some combination of Dalen Terry, Matas Buzelis, Jalen Smith, Adama Sanogo - are actually bad. 60 minutes of LaVine and Vucevic or 60 minutes MORE of those guys, across a season, is likely to be the difference of 2-5 wins. That could be enough to drop them low enough to finish in the 11th spot.
Now I get that anything that's not average or better (i.e. trying to win) is the same to yfBB, but there is a difference in quality of bad at the bottom of the Conferences.
*I don't know that I wholly agree, because I think it's really hard for some teams to do it - they are of the friendly bulls blogger mindset that tearing down is never good, and thus would never actually tear down; hell, an argument can be made that Bulls haven't even completed the tear down as they still have two high-profile players on their team.
I was rooting around Basketball Reference the other day and was surprised to be reminded that the glorious Lonzo Ball Era that everyone gets misty-eyed about lasted all of 35 games. That's it. That's all he played for the Chicago Bulls. That was what management used as an excuse for the last 164 games of aimless nihilism. 35 games is less than the number of games Greg Oden started for Portland. Sam Bowie in his rookie season played 76. In the ravaged, strike-shortened season before his injury in the playoffs, Derrick Rose still played 39. I can go on and on.
It's pretty ridiculous.
I neglected a possible sell job:
@KCJHoop:
Longtime NBA trainer Chris Johnson, who has worked with multiple Bulls in the past (Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson, Joakim Noah, Rajon Rondo), posted to his YouTube channel a long video of Lonzo Ball getting some run in with NBA players. Ball’s J looks pure.
This team is gonna go 32-50, end up with like the 13th pick and be SCREWED.
White Sox suck
I find total negativity to be boring. We can't change the past, so I'm always looking at how things can get better and what is a realistic success for the season?
0. AKME getting fired. This is a pipe dream, but would immediately make the season a success. Just ignore it for the purposes of the rest of this comment.
1. Giddey improves his 3PT shot & defense.
2. Matas improving enough to merit a lot of playing time. I feel like his court vision & instincts are good enough that some big steps defensively are possible.
3. Lonzo being healthy enough and playing well enough to get legit playing time.
4. Zach traded before the deadline without sending a pick out.
5. Make the playoffs or keep our pick.
If these happened, I would be stoked, no matter what our record was.
I'm curious what other people think a successful season would look like?
That's a tough question. When you say "make the playoffs" my mind immediately goes "NOOOOO" in Darth Vader's voice. However, if all the previous points happened which led to the Bulls making the playoffs (ie. Giddey takes a huge step forward, Matas takes a big step forward, etc.) then I guess I wouldn't be that mad. Losing the pick would still suck, but they'd have some clear young talent on the team to work with.
The problem is I don't see all those things happening. I think I'd be pretty happy if even one or two of those things happened this season. If I had my way, I think I'd go the opposite direction you did.
1. Zach miraculously gets traded before the season starts and the Bulls don't have to include any picks.
2. Vooch mysteriously suffers from a serious injury and misses most of the season.
3. We get a starting lineup of Giddey, Coby, Pat, Matas, Smith and we're absolutely terrible, but all of our young guys get tons of playing time.
4. Someone offers an insane deal to take Coby at the trade deadline and AK sells high for the first time in his life and realizes it's a great feeling.
5. The lottery gods show their favor on the Bulls and they get the #1 pick.
6. We find out Vooch has secretly been dealing fentanyl to his rich neighbors and ends up getting kicked off the team and the final year of his contract is voided.
Okay, I may have gotten a little carried away there, but you get the gist. And I should probably clarify that I'm not being negative here. More just saying I think the Bulls have a better chance at success by being really bad than they do at their young pieces all taking significant steps forward.
I get what you mean about looking constructively being more fun, but I actually do think there is no way this season can be successful. Good things can happen-- and you outlined some of them-- but they won't make for a successful season.
To me a successful season is about one of three things: 1) actual achievements or 2) changes that open up new strategic opportunities or 3) changes that indicate a particular positive strategic focus. Everything you mentioned would be good, yet none of it amounts to an accomplishment (they simply are not making the playoffs) or a shift in strategic outlook. In my opinion, they are not at the point where a successful season is even possible.
To win in the NBA you need a legit star and the Bulls don't have one. We can talk about developing young talent all we want but even if everyone on this roster reaches their absolute ceiling we're talking about a 40 to 42 win team. The only thing the front office should be concerned with is getting a star. Much easier said than done but you have to put yourself in a position to maximize your chances of getting one. That means being bad for one year in anticipation of a loaded draft class. Losing the pick would be an absolute disaster.
I think that is incredibly shitty for a 'competitive' sports league and a franchise that has inherent advantages, but ultimately true. I suppose a deeper question is if AKME realizes this and would there be a way to say it. Or at least signal it. I don't think they do and are only indicating a shared delusion, but also don't have a counterfactual for what they should be doing/saying instead. I suppose draft picks instead of 'experienced young players' would be an easy distinction
Let me ask a thought-experiment question: if Jayson Tatum were somehow just dropped on the Bulls tomorrow (let's say for cap purposes just delete Patrick, Ayo, Carter, Duarte, and Terry off the team), what do you think the Bull's prospects would look like over the next 3 years? Like, what do you think they'd win this year? Max wins over the 3-year period?
The problem is, if we don't lose the high pick in '25, we're going to lose it in 26. Or 27.
Which get's to TheMoon's point. We're not just "a star" away, and then we can suddenly turn around in a year.
Say we get Cooper Flagg next year. Awesome! Better than not getting him.
But... Coby (expiring contract), Ayo (expiring contract), Vuc (sucks, expiring contract) and probably whatever junk we get for Zach are gonna be either gone or much more expensive.
The 26-27 Bulls would be
Flagg
Pat
Matas
Jalen Smith
Julian Phillips
(No incoming first round pick because we gave it to the Spurs)
Now, maybe you re-sign Ayo and Coby (again, to more expensive deals), but even if Flagg is the second coming, that team is more than a Coby and Ayo away from being anything. And the cupboard is pretty bare as far as draft picks for adding talent or making trades.
What I'm getting at is, this team isn't even in position to build if it's given a great player up front. We're that far behind.
I think fondness for Derrick as well as a justifiable antipathy for GarPax have combined to obscure something about the last time this team was really good; which is that to get where they got they needed not only an MVP caliber player, but also like a half dozen terrific personnel decisions to support it, and a fringe all star already on the team. You know, kinda like the fuckin Knicks right now. Flagg on the Bulls is like KG on the Wolves.
I know this is not going to go over well but...
My optimistic take is to just watch the Knicks.
I don't think it's heresy. They're basically a Chicago Bulls colony at this point.
There's this story in one of Nietzsche's works about medieval French peasants during Lent. They can't eat meat but like, they live in central France and might not stray more than 10 miles from their village their whole lives, so where are they getting protein for their already strained diet if not from meat?
Here's a lawyerly solution they came up with: if you make a kind of rope basket around a hunk of mutton and lower it into your well and let it hang out in the water for a bit, it's basically a fish now, right? I have no reason to think God disagreed.
They have Thibs. They have a big time scoring point guard. They have a beefy, skilled PF. They have a big defensive wing from Africa by way of the UK. They all play 45 mins a game. They're GM is named Rose. Close enough. It's basically fish. No heresy detected.
Fuck the French and fuck the Knicks!
Here is a little gift for YFBB, I know he loves all things Vucevic:
https://basketnews.com/news-210908-nikola-vucevic-talks-about-olympics-praises-jokic-and-wembanyama.html
Some excerpts that relate to the Bulls:
“Since Lonzo Ball’s injury, we haven’t been able to achieve the results we could have. It disrupted us a lot," claims Vucevic.
"When he played, we were at the top of the East for a while, which maybe wasn’t a realistic result, even though we were playing well, but with him, we would have fought for anything between third and sixth place in the end."
"The rest of us focus more on scoring: LaVine, DeRozan, and me. He brought us all together, sped up the game, meant a lot on defense, guarding the best players with Caruso… Although his numbers might not have been impressive, he meant a lot to us."
"We tried with young players, and then we had numerous injuries. Trade talks also affected us, preventing us from achieving the results we thought we could, but when results don’t follow, changes come…"
"DeRozan left, Caruso left, the team got younger, and they wanted to go in a different direction. We’ll see how the season goes, and then decisions will be made based on that.”
Yes I saw this too! What an incredible loser. https://substack.com/@blogabull/note/c-66699448?r=2bo
The simple answer is the season is for the Reinsdorfs. Maximize profits, sell an inferior product at the highest price possible to the greatest amount of suckers, er, customers. Avoid luxury tax and collect profit sharing, and keep the first round pick (it has value in trades, yet allows the Bulls to add a cheap rookie instead of an expensive vet). Focus on cheap marketing instead of spending on improvements. Get the bag, not the playoffs
They'd be making so much more money if they had moderately competent executives. Even if those executives themselves cost a bit more.
Except the good executives don't want to work under Reinsdorf's conditions/restrictions. So we're left with AKME types.