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User's avatar
tom's avatar

I remember a few months ago positing if AKME had found an exploitable asset in trading for veterans like Giddey, Vuc, Huerter, Okoro, etc. rather than accumulating draft assets.

I feel like an idiot now. Of course these guys are as inept as they've always been. Screw Reinsdorf. The Bulls are so deeply irrelevant in a city that is desperate to love them. What a shame.

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

I think it was a kind of market inefficiency if you had unambitious goals. In that they'd help you win enough games to make the play-in, and if they were played off the court in the playoffs that at least meant you made the playoffs

but then too many got hurt.

Rich Karpinski's avatar

It's also market inefficiency one might be able to exploit if you build a 'deep' competitive roster plus have all your picks and THEN finally cash some of it in on a star trade. So yeah ambition vs settling...a Bulls tale as old as time post-Jordan era.

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

if even thinking from the perspective of an executive willing and able to sell veterans, I am not sure how much value the Bulls 'guys' have

like I could see a contending team needing to simply get a healthy body to innings-eat and then likely bury them in the playoffs. Like Vuc on the Warriors, he would only be useful for when they're resting Horford.

it's incredible to think who is a proven playoff rotation player on this team? Either they have been cast aside already as not being that caliber (Okoro, Huerter), or they haven't had a chance to prove it (Ayo, Jones).

Captain Kirk's Tooth Gap's avatar

I actually think the two unproven guys you mentioned could be attractive to some playoff teams. Neither are ceiling raisers, but they're both floor raisers for sure. High IQ play and good defense are far more important in the playoffs and both Ayo and Jones are good at those things.

With that being said, Jones is on a great deal which means AK certainly won't trade him. Ayo is expiring and may be hard to hold onto, but he's also a Chicago kid and one of AK's only good picks which likely makes AK want to keep him even more.

H_Vaughn's avatar

I'd like to push back gently on the Ayo is a good defender narrative. He's had a negative DBPM every season except his second and it's at a career-worst -1.5 this year. He's somewhat versatile and doesn't foul much, but I don't see him as a positive defender other than against Trae Young.

Captain Kirk's Tooth Gap's avatar

You're not wrong. Ayo has always passed the eye test, but his advanced stats have always been pretty bad.

With that being said, I still could see a playoff team looking to bolster their backcourt depth (and hoping his poor advanced stats are largely due to the bad teams he's been on) by taking on the remainder of Ayo's expiring contract at the deadline.

MikeDC's avatar

I have been playing with lots of defensive stats, and I will push back less gently.

He's ok, but he has a below average defensive usage and a below average number of disruptive plays. He's not terrible but he's not anything at all special and I think the net result is below average.

Maybe he's a guy who "could" be better if he devoted more energy to defense, but when the Bulls have needed someone to up their defensive usage and get stops, he hasn't been up to the task.

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsJB's avatar

“Williams, Terry, Phillips, 2-way guys all should be DNPs.”

Probably not great that list includes basically 75% of AK’s draft picks from his first four years, huh?

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

and AK himself has trashed his picks by bringing in all these veterans. His old team in Denver would've insisted Billy play Dalen Terry, not trade for Isaac Okoro to play above him.

Thomas's avatar

as someone who watching the cavs the past couple years because the bulls were so depressing it's really funny they decided to get Okoro who's best games are the ones you don't notice him at all

gaddommit's avatar

I am calling for a complete and total shutdown until AK can figure out what the hell is going on (and/or until we can get a top 5 draft position in a loaded draft).

Captain Kirk's Tooth Gap's avatar

I feel like this is the least subtle Billy has been about how bad this roster is. At some point AK has to pick up on that, no? Billy got his extension. Maybe he'd be happy to get fired and get paid for a couple more years without doing anything.

I have to imagine Billy doesn't actually want to be here. He's an incredibly successful coach. Finishing out his career trying to make an unserious organization somewhat competitive cannot be what he actually wants.

Jeff's avatar

I think it's fair to push back on BD's success. He's an incredibly successful COLLEGE coach. His first season in the NBA he took a team to the WCF. Since then he has never gotten out of the first round and he's only made the playoffs in 5 of the 9 seasons. Is that successful?

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

I heard Cowley* say that Billy likes it here because all he wants to do is coach, and talk about coaching, and he can do that here with seemingly unlimited impunity. But he also doesn't mind being included in decision-making, and unlike in OKC they do bring stuff to him here.

*I'm softening a bit on him as my insatiable craving for people trashing the Bulls means I have actually read/listened to him. He admits he was suckered by the 15-5 stretch and 'laying groundwork' and the 5-0 start. I even heard him say something negative about his buddy Michael Reinsdorf. That's some growth. But I never disregarded him because he was 'negative', but because he has dogshit basketball opinions and has incredibly poor information comprehension

Thomas's avatar

we let him give his nepo baby son a job so there's perks

Rich Karpinski's avatar

Man, I don't know. I think Billy is actually indicting himself. When you play a Pistons team with with literally no experienced NBA players and they beat your brains in, it's not a talent issue. It's something else. Same with losing Lonzo and everything falling apart. In both those cases it's about what's happening on the floor. It's about scheme and accountability and putting the right players in the right spots to at least be competitive. Billy seemed like a good guy and I'm old enough to remember that he was one hell of a college player. I know it's a cliche but maybe they're not hearing his voice anymore. It does happen

Chi-Fed's avatar

I remember reading that the reason that Billy left OKC was that he didn’t want to coach a rebuilding team. What a terrible decision by him.

Jeff's avatar

It's that Anakin/Padme meme with Anakin (AK) saying I'll never rebuild the Bulls and Padme (BD or any Bulls fan) saying so we're gonna be good, right?

gaddommit's avatar

In fairness, the Bulls are never rebuilding. They just suck!

MikeDC's avatar

I think the more accurate reason is the Thunder didn't want to pay him 3 to 5 times what they paid Daignaut to coach a rebuilding team and Donovan didn't want to take risk the shorter contract they were offering him to offset the higher pay.

It was probably the right decision by both of them.

Thomas's avatar

he personally denied that but who knows these guys lie constantly about the real reasons so they can get future jobs

girlfriend's avatar

interesting interplay between bulls success model, which requires sneaking into playoff revenue via a regular season of maximizing wins against injured, resting, or worse teams — and the exploding Soft Tissue Injury epidemic.

Like, can’t have a lauded 15-5 stretch of out-hustling injured teams in the spring when the knees and ankles on your team don’t work either. can’t be mediocre without the fake wins! i never considered internecine locker room feuds as a means to blowing the whole operation up, but hopefully that continues.

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

Thursday practice update, aka the calvary of mid is coming (kind of):

>Tre Jones says he will play tomorrow

>Ayo and Huerter won’t travel

>Okoro and Smith practiced. TBD on tomorrow but will have minutes restrictions

Chi-Fed's avatar

There’s a rumor (from Cowley so take it with a grain of salt) that the Timberwolves are interested in Coby. I don’t know if AKME is interested in trading a piece of the “young core” and Minnesota doesn’t have much to trade so I don’t think that this will happen.

Captain Kirk's Tooth Gap's avatar

AK's been pretty adamant that he wants to keep Coby and I believe him. Trading Coby when he actually has good trade value would be completely opposite of the way AK has operated the past five or so years.

Gorditadogg's avatar

If AK wants to re-sign Coby he still could. He's going to be a UFA this summer. And he's probably not going to get a whole lot more than what our cap hold would be, which I think is about $24 million, so not having his Bird rights is not a big deal.

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

the cap hold allows them to delay re-signing (for more) until after cap space is used

I'd say every million counts, but the Bulls don't agree as even with their master plan of flexibility they're still paying Okoro, Smith, Jones, and Pat

Gorditadogg's avatar

Oh, sure every million counts. But it would probably only be a couple million, and weighing that against picking up a young asset in trade it seems to me like it could be a very good use of that couple million of space.

Okoro, Smith and Jones are all decent players at decent salaries. I am not sure why you keep saying that is some sort of failure of Bulls FO to have those guys. Pat on the other hand, as we all know, is a dog that we are stuck with.

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

it's a failure if you are relying on cap space to get great players. you can get 'decent players at decent salaries' without cap space, for example how they were able to acquire them.

also I think Okoro and Smith are overpaid even at 'decent salary'

Gorditadogg's avatar

Sounds like you want us to tank and rebuild. That is a long term process that doesn't usually work. Or am I misunderstanding you. Would you rather do a trade for Giannis or another big star.

With our current expected space and exceptions we can bring on $85 million in salaries. We should be able to get better players with that. But no, we probably won't get a guy who will be the best player on a championship team. But we could get a couple more young players who are good now, not just prospects, and could grow along with Giddey and Buzelis.

Thomas's avatar

define decent for me because I don't see how Okoro counts when the team is better when he sits and he's regularly outplayed by Ayo who himself is a borderline starter.

It's not by a small amount either, they're 7 points per 100 possessions worse when Okoro plays https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612741&Season=2025-26&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1630171

Gorditadogg's avatar

Yeah, Okoro had a really bad start to the season offensively, but has contributed more on that end his last several games. I think he is a useful player for the Bulls. He is probably our only plus defender (Matas has improved a lot this year but I am not ready to put that tag on him yet) and as we are a bad defensive team we need Okoro out there to guard the best player. Against the Pelicans he matched up against Zion. He got Cunningham against the Pistons, Banchero against the Magic. He takes the toughest assignments whenever he is in.

Okoro does not accumulate counting stats, so his win share-based ratings don't look too good, but he rates better when you look at metrics like RAPM. https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Isaac_Okoro

I think Okoro is a much better defender than Ayo. And if Okoro's 3-ball starts dropping he will be a good 3-and-D player. Note: His MO at Cleveland was a good regular season player that couldn't make the leap to playoff-level ball. I hope that can get tested with the Bulls.

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

I agree it seems unlikely

to get into the mechanics, TWolves (being a big market, I guess) are only $3.5M under the 2nd apron, and have to send more out than bringing in (Coby is at $12.8M)

All easier if they include DiVincenzo ($11.9M) or Conley ($10.7M), though for basketball reasons I don't know why either side would want that.

they also don't have any unencumbered future firsts. There's a pick swap for some years but others they'd have to share with another team.

so I think only solution is

1) Rob Dillingham - might be as good as Coby White one day?

2) Joan Beringer - Noa Essengue, if a center

3) Jaylen Clark / Leonard Miller - 2nd round picks making ~$2M

Could also have Terrence Shannon Jr. as that 3rd spot, but I think the Timberwolves find him useful. And he's only a couple months younger than Coby. But, then again, he's from Chicago.

I don't share the urgency of some to trade Coby at all. Just re-sign him, if he's as overrated as some say, he won't command too much.

Chi-Fed's avatar

I wonder how much Coby thinks he’s worth. This year seems to be a bit on an outlier in terms of health since he’s averaged a tad over 70 games played in his first six seasons. I would say $25-30m/year.

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

the league hasn't been kind to short 2 guards lately. Cam Thomas...I'm blanking on others heh

being injury-prone for the first time in his career is bad timing too

MikeDC's avatar

I still imagine $25M as the high end, which AKME has already signaled they'd pay him with that quote they made this past summer that they knew he was worth more than what they could pay him at the time. So they've already bid against themselves.

Trigga T's avatar

i think Coby himself probably wants 4/120. i think he could get 25M for a good number of teams. I know Cam Thomas didn't get offers but i dont think the league sees Coby as a chucker and he has some PG skills/experience as well.

MikeDC's avatar

Which teams specifically?

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

just looking at bottom half ORtg (excluding tankers)

Mavs

Grizzlies

Clippers

Bucks

Warriors

Blazers

MikeDC's avatar

But literally none of those teams will have $25 or even $20M in cap space to offer to him.

Thomas's avatar

Cam Thomas is a ball hog who doesn't try when he doesn't have the ball and Coby is good off ball so that makes him more valuable

Gorditadogg's avatar

I don't think Minnesota is happy with Shannon or Dillingham. That's why they're looking for a backcourt scorer. If we could get Beringer that would be great.

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

hey, good for Cowley, Sam Amick of The Athletic corroborated the Wolves-Coby interest

"A team source confirmed to The Athletic that the Timberwolves have interest in Bulls guard Coby White, as was reported on Thursday. However, because White will likely be in line for a significant raise in the offseason, the Wolves may view him as a potential rental, which would make them less inclined to give up the sort of return Chicago would be seeking, Amick explains."

Jeff Darby's avatar

Why does Donovan even want to deal with this? By all accounts he's a good coach - why would he sign that extension, and not try to go to another franchise that actually cares and is trying?

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsJB's avatar

Billy is pointing out something that AK won’t accept: the league is too talented nowadays to think that you can achieve something by only focusing on different degrees of “good, but not great” players.

There are no 2012 Bobcats or tanking Sixers in the league anymore. Every team has at least a couple of talented players.

There is no big next level for Coby, Giddey, Ayo, and Vuc. There are plenty of players in their tier on plenty of teams. What separates the good teams from the Bulls is that the good teams recognize that players in that tier are mostly role players.

AK is like a movie director who’s arguing “Instead of hiring Leonardo DiCaprio, what if we make Steve Buscemi our leading man and just keep filming until he becomes Leonardo DiCaprio?”

Gorditadogg's avatar

We can all have our own interpretations but I thought Billy was just saying a variation of the same thing that Pops liked to say, which is something like "if I have Bird, Jordan and Durant on my team they can take turns going one on one. Otherwise we need to move the ball."

Luke Schenscher's 1 Good Game's avatar

Sticking with my 'history rhymes' hypothesis from the "Bulls' nadir" thread, I'm going to guess Donovan gets fired during the upcoming holiday period.

https://www.ocala.com/story/news/2007/12/25/bulls-lose-patience-fire-skiles-following-woeful-9-16-start/31232349007/

bob's avatar

I don't think scott just got some weird extension just prior to that

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

Marc Stein today says Bulls still interested in Kuminga.

seems like an AK type move - a 'young player with experience' that a team with contending aspirations doesn't want to play. He received a DNP against the Bulls.

I don't know (genuinely), is he even that interesting of a player? He is actually an athlete, but does he play with 'physicality' or does he have Kobe-brain on offense. Can he defend small forwards?

I'd do it for Vuc (Kuminga has a team option so precious flexibility is preserved), and perhaps Warriors get even worse offers than they did in the offseason. But AK 'interest' means he'll likely keep upping the offer and send picks.

MikeDC's avatar

Beyond AK being stupid, I'm trying to think what I'd want if I were the Warriors. It wouldn't be Vuc.

Kuminga, Jackson-Davis, and Hield for Huerter, Jalen Smith, and Phillips is a deal that probably fits well for both teams.

Smith can shoot and TJD can't, so Smith would theoretically be a better fit for the Warriors. I think TJD is a better defender, but obviously he brings nothing on offense and is more undersized.

Hield is just bad at this point, but his salary for next year is mostly unguaranteed. He's just filler.

Huerter, if he's healthy, is probably a more effective player than Kuminga. I don't know... his shooting goes from really good to terrible so often I just don't know.

Kuminga is an inefficient offensive player most of the time. He's an average defender. But bigger and stronger than Huerter, and he's more of a 4. He draws fouls and rebounds pretty well, and those are both things the Bulls need.

1- Tre

1/2- Coby, Ayo, Carter

1/3- Giddey

2/3-Okoro

3/4-Matas

3/4- Kuminga, Pat

4/5- TJD

5- Vuc, Collins

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

I wasn't figuring Hield as someone they'd just give away, but didn't realize he was down to 30% from three this season, oof. Has a $3M guarantee next year, for reference.

I do think they'd use Huerter (in the regular season) and perhaps Smith when he's shooting well. But I also think they would value Vuc as a 'smart veteran'. Unfortunately no way to have them take Huerter and Vuc, way too much salary.

you'd think they would hold out for players who they'd actually play in their playoff rotation, but perhaps Kuminga's value has fallen too far

BTW, Phillips isn't necessary to include for salary matching, and the Warriors would likely rather use roster and apron space for a scrap heap find versus AK-drafted scrap.

Trigga T's avatar

Kuminga is has been a pretty poor rebounder for his size and athleticism...he's gotten better this year. Yea he still has Kobe brain and thinks he should be an iso scoring primary option. Ok at best on defense. And yea he's more of a small 4 than an actual wing imo

Not a fan at all....he could be an effective role if he stayed in his lane but he has higher and unwarranted aspirations for himself.

Thomas's avatar

I'm hoping we do trade better players for kuminga because bottoming out is the only way we rid ourselves of ak

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

Shootaround on Friday saw Coby White reveal he has calf tightness in the right leg, the one that held him out to begin the season. He does plan on playing tonight though.

(that generates a 'yikes')

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

posted game thread for Bulls/Hornets. I'm actually really looking forward to this? https://open.substack.com/chat/posts/9e9296a7-e288-4180-9dfa-ae7d429747d5

Mikeizbak's avatar

Dear Adam Silver

I'm writing you this letter,

that you will read if you have balls

I'm desperate for better

ownership for our Bulls

The team is irrelevant,

useless, hopeless, absent...

The team is a rant

against basketball, it's blatant

So calling the league's pope

Last move to restore hope

To have our Bulls develop

and to relevance repop

(first two verses inspired from poem "le déserteur" by Boris Vian, later sung by Renaud, if you want to know ^^)

Luke Schenscher's 1 Good Game's avatar

Oh, I thought it was inspired by Eminem.

Mikeizbak's avatar

I'm too old and too french to know his texts, although I like his art ^^ Maybe he got inspiration from Vian (Who died before 1950 I think)

Mikeizbak's avatar

By the way, if somebody feels like making à song, please use benefits to fund a "Sell Da Bulld" Billboard ^^

bob's avatar

vuc getting benched is a start right? right??

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

More likely Zach Collins starts over Matas

bob's avatar

if it means no more 4th quarter vuc I'll take it

your friendly BullsBlogger's avatar

Vuc started, played most minutes on the team

The organization is in alignment on this.

barronitaly's avatar

Heads up: the new post you wrote today has a subscriber-only comment rule enabled. Not to bitch, just to highlight.

Also, I want to give you some shit there for mixing up calvary and cavalry.