It's all pretty secondary to the fact that they'd have been a lot better off going the Portland or Washington route and having a good chance at a high pick
Literally any other strategy for the remainder of the season would have been better than what AK decided at the deadline. Even the Pat Bev signing potentially cost us about 20 percentage points odds at a Top 4 pick. But in retrospect it is better than if we had Pat Bev or similar the entire year, because then we'd likely have about 46 wins again given that he proved a major issue of the team was mere PG incompetence. And 46 wins would guarantee AK does nothing, whereas 40 at least there's hope he does something this offseason
really thought they were going to. that was my prediction at the beginning of the season... was that if the season was shit they'd trade him at the deadline. but nope.
In a way I'm glad we saw what it was like to have a healthy Zach play with this version of the team. If I'm going to 3D chess this, maybe the space provide by a legit stretch 5 enabled Zach to achieve that when-hes-healthy high efficiency which will entice a team somewhere (Sacremento!) to go all in on a Zach trade. Not gonna happen, but in the abstract it feels like Zach's trade value is much higher than it was pre-break.
I actually think they should have traded Derozan. Derozan becoming an allstar was the worst thing to happen as It cemented Derozan on the team, but he and lavine are redundant
I didn't think it was going to happen, but totally agree that the right move would have been to trade DeRozan and probably Vooch, both of whom I actually like! But I've come around that DeMar is just too hard to build around the way he handicaps you from distance and defensively. So you've got to try to make up for those deficiencies elsewhere, and at the same time I think he mutes Zach's impact a bit and has probably stunted Pat's development (I'm still more on PWill island than I am off of it). I think it was the right time to sell on Caruso, too. He just doesn't really make sense on a middling team.
Realistically, I'd want to see a re-tool around Zach, PWill, and Coby, and then use DeMar, Vooch, and Caruso to add draft capital and two-way role players. Keep Dalen on a developmental track and Ayo as a backup. Pie in the sky would be somehow flipping DeMar, Vooch, and maybe Caruso for Anthony Davis in an "everybody goes home" trade, but I don't see the Lakers going for it even if they flame out. And AD's knees would probably evaporate the moment he became a Bull.
I think the bulls have to retool around Zach or blow it up, Zach ending the season on a high note helps at least with that, and I do think you can have Zach and vooch to form a nucleus for offense. As great as deebo is, he doesn't fit with vooch and is a bit redundant with Zach. We don't have any cap space to work with so a trade is the only way to really recoup, and as our future assets are depleted if all we did was trade deebo for future picks, it would still be great.
DeMar was the poster boy of a value veteran signing that you catch lightning in a bottle on and sell at peak value to a team that wants to make a run at a championship. You sign him not caring if he fits, but as a trade able asset later. AK could have gotten a very respectable haul for Deebo and the entire NBA world would have commended him for it. Another AK self own
I really thought AK would have taken the opportunity to get back the assets he lost in the vooch trade. I hate to say it, but Paxson 100% would have made a play to regain flexibility, and for once that truly felt like the right move.
Not a defense, but I remember having a hard time coming up with a would-be landing-spot for DeMar. The Knicks? Maybe he could have been the target for the Clippers or Lakers instead of what they ended up doing?
I know Bulls fans are conditioned to hate offense, but they're not really redundant at all. Lots of other teams actually take the strange approach of trying to have many really good players on their team.
I'm not against having good players, but at some point the roster needs to make sense as well. Two ball dominant scorers, one who is well past 30 the other with a knee that doesn't age well, neither plays defense, and are On a limited if not outright flawed roster. I get what you're saying but I don't think Derozan and lavine are the pairing you decide to keep together
How about we fix the actual, really obvious flaws instead of the perceived ones that don't meet a theoretical platonic ideal?
Those two guys aren't in the top 5 of reasons we lose games. And I don't think DeRozan has the kind of trade value where you do anything by trading him except creating a 6th reason.
Reasons we're bad:
1. The whole team has to warp around protecting Vuc as a defender.
2. Bad, reluctant, and not enough shooters
3. Bad PG play for most of the year
4. No power forwards or mobile, switchable centers
5. Too much charity minutes given to Ayo and Pat, who were both overmatched and crammed into positions they're not a natural fit.
This is the old Bulls trap of blaming the guys who have some visible success for the rest of the team being ludicrously built.
I watched the last 2 games and enjoyed them. I liked seeing Dalen Terry, Terry Taylor, and seeing what they could do. Carlik Jones can shoot 3’s. He will be on some teams roster next year.
From my perspective, it's not that they didn't tank, it's that they didn't commit to one direction or the other. The Bulls were in a position at the break where they were basically a play-in team at best. If they wanted to contend, they needed to make moves that signified that. Standing pat (Pat...get it...it's a pun) wasn't the right move to contend. The other option is to get out of basketball purgatory. The difference between the Bulls and the top teams in the East is bigger than what a middling first round pick would provide. They could have done a mini rebuild around Zach or DDR or both even. Sell off Vooch for a little bit of draft capital to a contender without getting anyone even remotely good back and we would have lost enough to hopefully drop behind Indy, Washington, and maybe even Orlando. Throw in some sore knees for DDR or Zach and call it a day. Bottom line, they picked the 10 seed in the play in when that puts them in the worst position possible. Either go for it, or don't.
If you're going to tank then tank all the way. This idea of mini tanking to gain a few percentage points towards a possible better draft slot doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Especially when the odds will still be very long. You've got a whole organization. It's getting paid to win. Telling them not to has day-to-day and over time consequences.
I think there would be zero short-term or long-term consequences to telling Donovan not to play the starters for two games. Whereas 'tanking all the way' does suck and shouldn't be advocated for.
I think Reinsdorf is the one lacking ambition and AK is bad at his job. I'm not one for endless rebuilding but if they were to strategically pick one year to tank, it would have made sense to do it this year. Unfortunately AK decided to overcommit to his plan, which I now admit is shitty. I just hope he finally course corrects this off season, and he isn't fooled by this meaningless play-in berth.
Only he severely neutered his ability to course correct this offseason even if he did want to, by giving Vucevic ALL of the leverage in negotiations (when he could have traded him for something, anything), and Deebo / Caruso will have lower trade values than at the deadline. He really doesn't have many cards to play to make significant changes this offseason unless he does something wild like trade Zach, or at the least Pat (whose trade value also continuously declines), although I suppose the idea KC Johnson suggested about trading Portland back their own pick for the Knicks pick might be a relatively easy move. That's all assuming he even wants to course correct, which there have been no signs this is the case thus far
Yeah I think any moves they make this off-season will be moves they should have made pre-trade deadline, except for much worse value. Trading Portland their own pick back also makes sense.
> In the first quarter, Demar hit Zach with a lob. Amin said it was the first Demar-to-Zach lob of the season, and I don't recall seeing it before. How weird is that?
> The game was neck-and-neck until the Bulls put their subs in. That seems like a damning indictment of the roster construction.
What makes this all even worse is that the Bulls didn't really even go for it at the trade deadline. Pat Bev was an ok pickup, but only really in the fact that he's a veteran and we basically don't have a point guard on the roster. I love Ayo, but he's better at the 2. Same with Coby. The Bulls needed to improve on offense. The Hawks have put together a top 10 offense with the lowest 3pa rate in the league. How? Did they hit a really high percentage of the few threes they take? Nope, 21st in the league and worse than the Bulls. Offensive rebounding and low turnovers. The Bulls ended up being a top 10 team in TOV%, so they were already ok there and I think Pat Bev helped. they needed to add 3pt shooting or offensive rebounding. Some choices based on who was dealt.
- Mason Plumlee. He is a great offensive rebounder. He's playing 20mpg for the Clips. He would have helped bench offensive rebounding, and you could probably have gotten away with a handful of Vuc/Plumlee combined minutes. Plus, he's tons better than Drummond.
- Matisse Thybulle - He was not valued by the 76ers. Excellent defender, decent 3pt shooter, and a decent offensive rebounder for his size.
- Luke Kennard - The guy shot nearly 50% from 3pt land this year. He'd be deadly in small ball lineups (Bev/Caruso, LaVine, Kennard, DeRozan, Vuc) and would be a fantastic shooter off the bench.
How much would it have taken to get any of these guys? I don't know. But kicking the tires on any of them (Kennard especially) would have been a not so splashy move that could have made us worlds better offensively and shown we were serious about making the playoffs. Instead, all we did is barely make the play in and hurt our future.
The lack of offensive rebounding is also strategy. I almost think BD would rather have a top defensive rating than win more games, he sure gets a lot of praise for selling out for defense. Alex Caruso all-defense 'conversation' is a symptom too
Does performance in the play-in affect the draft odds or are they based only on regular season record? I don't remember the rule and couldn't find confirmation on the NBA site.
My question wasn't clear. 9th and 10th seeded teams (i.e. the worst play-in teams) are in the lottery. Based on the Bulls regular season record, we're currently tied for 11th best odds. But if the Bulls win 2 games and make the playoffs, do we slide down to 13th or 14th best odds (or worse)? Or are the draft odds "locked" as of the end of the regular season?
if they win 2 games and make the playoffs, they aren't in the lottery at all. Playoff teams are by definition not lottery teams.
But the Bulls being tied for 11th best odds is locked in whether they win 1 game or not. I suppose root for the Thunder to win 2 games, because they'd go in the playoffs and be replaced in the lottery by a team with a better regular season record than the Bulls.
It's just weird to read people think Lavine and Deebo are redundant when the second best net rating 5 man lineup since AS game is the big 3 with Pat Bev and Caruso. Showing all we've really been missing is a legit Ball replacement. Only thing I want to see is us get a real pg in the off season and more 3 and D guys. Seems like every other team just shoots and hits twice as many 3s against us every game.
It's all pretty secondary to the fact that they'd have been a lot better off going the Portland or Washington route and having a good chance at a high pick
Literally any other strategy for the remainder of the season would have been better than what AK decided at the deadline. Even the Pat Bev signing potentially cost us about 20 percentage points odds at a Top 4 pick. But in retrospect it is better than if we had Pat Bev or similar the entire year, because then we'd likely have about 46 wins again given that he proved a major issue of the team was mere PG incompetence. And 46 wins would guarantee AK does nothing, whereas 40 at least there's hope he does something this offseason
Should have traded Vuc at the deadline.
really thought they were going to. that was my prediction at the beginning of the season... was that if the season was shit they'd trade him at the deadline. but nope.
In a way I'm glad we saw what it was like to have a healthy Zach play with this version of the team. If I'm going to 3D chess this, maybe the space provide by a legit stretch 5 enabled Zach to achieve that when-hes-healthy high efficiency which will entice a team somewhere (Sacremento!) to go all in on a Zach trade. Not gonna happen, but in the abstract it feels like Zach's trade value is much higher than it was pre-break.
I actually think they should have traded Derozan. Derozan becoming an allstar was the worst thing to happen as It cemented Derozan on the team, but he and lavine are redundant
I didn't think it was going to happen, but totally agree that the right move would have been to trade DeRozan and probably Vooch, both of whom I actually like! But I've come around that DeMar is just too hard to build around the way he handicaps you from distance and defensively. So you've got to try to make up for those deficiencies elsewhere, and at the same time I think he mutes Zach's impact a bit and has probably stunted Pat's development (I'm still more on PWill island than I am off of it). I think it was the right time to sell on Caruso, too. He just doesn't really make sense on a middling team.
Realistically, I'd want to see a re-tool around Zach, PWill, and Coby, and then use DeMar, Vooch, and Caruso to add draft capital and two-way role players. Keep Dalen on a developmental track and Ayo as a backup. Pie in the sky would be somehow flipping DeMar, Vooch, and maybe Caruso for Anthony Davis in an "everybody goes home" trade, but I don't see the Lakers going for it even if they flame out. And AD's knees would probably evaporate the moment he became a Bull.
I think the bulls have to retool around Zach or blow it up, Zach ending the season on a high note helps at least with that, and I do think you can have Zach and vooch to form a nucleus for offense. As great as deebo is, he doesn't fit with vooch and is a bit redundant with Zach. We don't have any cap space to work with so a trade is the only way to really recoup, and as our future assets are depleted if all we did was trade deebo for future picks, it would still be great.
DeMar was the poster boy of a value veteran signing that you catch lightning in a bottle on and sell at peak value to a team that wants to make a run at a championship. You sign him not caring if he fits, but as a trade able asset later. AK could have gotten a very respectable haul for Deebo and the entire NBA world would have commended him for it. Another AK self own
I really thought AK would have taken the opportunity to get back the assets he lost in the vooch trade. I hate to say it, but Paxson 100% would have made a play to regain flexibility, and for once that truly felt like the right move.
Not a defense, but I remember having a hard time coming up with a would-be landing-spot for DeMar. The Knicks? Maybe he could have been the target for the Clippers or Lakers instead of what they ended up doing?
I think getting the #19 pick from the Clippers (which they ended up trading for Eric Gordon) was about the best case scenario.
Which is to say, I don't think there was much available
I know Bulls fans are conditioned to hate offense, but they're not really redundant at all. Lots of other teams actually take the strange approach of trying to have many really good players on their team.
I'm not against having good players, but at some point the roster needs to make sense as well. Two ball dominant scorers, one who is well past 30 the other with a knee that doesn't age well, neither plays defense, and are On a limited if not outright flawed roster. I get what you're saying but I don't think Derozan and lavine are the pairing you decide to keep together
How about we fix the actual, really obvious flaws instead of the perceived ones that don't meet a theoretical platonic ideal?
Those two guys aren't in the top 5 of reasons we lose games. And I don't think DeRozan has the kind of trade value where you do anything by trading him except creating a 6th reason.
Reasons we're bad:
1. The whole team has to warp around protecting Vuc as a defender.
2. Bad, reluctant, and not enough shooters
3. Bad PG play for most of the year
4. No power forwards or mobile, switchable centers
5. Too much charity minutes given to Ayo and Pat, who were both overmatched and crammed into positions they're not a natural fit.
This is the old Bulls trap of blaming the guys who have some visible success for the rest of the team being ludicrously built.
I watched the last 2 games and enjoyed them. I liked seeing Dalen Terry, Terry Taylor, and seeing what they could do. Carlik Jones can shoot 3’s. He will be on some teams roster next year.
I’m glad we didn’t tank. I hate tanking.
but you would've seen a lot more of the Terrys if they did
Jones was the gleague MVP!
From my perspective, it's not that they didn't tank, it's that they didn't commit to one direction or the other. The Bulls were in a position at the break where they were basically a play-in team at best. If they wanted to contend, they needed to make moves that signified that. Standing pat (Pat...get it...it's a pun) wasn't the right move to contend. The other option is to get out of basketball purgatory. The difference between the Bulls and the top teams in the East is bigger than what a middling first round pick would provide. They could have done a mini rebuild around Zach or DDR or both even. Sell off Vooch for a little bit of draft capital to a contender without getting anyone even remotely good back and we would have lost enough to hopefully drop behind Indy, Washington, and maybe even Orlando. Throw in some sore knees for DDR or Zach and call it a day. Bottom line, they picked the 10 seed in the play in when that puts them in the worst position possible. Either go for it, or don't.
I mean yes Casey quit, but he is also moving to the front office of said Pistons team... lol.
If you're going to tank then tank all the way. This idea of mini tanking to gain a few percentage points towards a possible better draft slot doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Especially when the odds will still be very long. You've got a whole organization. It's getting paid to win. Telling them not to has day-to-day and over time consequences.
I think there would be zero short-term or long-term consequences to telling Donovan not to play the starters for two games. Whereas 'tanking all the way' does suck and shouldn't be advocated for.
the "mid-table" tank. every year!
I think Reinsdorf is the one lacking ambition and AK is bad at his job. I'm not one for endless rebuilding but if they were to strategically pick one year to tank, it would have made sense to do it this year. Unfortunately AK decided to overcommit to his plan, which I now admit is shitty. I just hope he finally course corrects this off season, and he isn't fooled by this meaningless play-in berth.
Only he severely neutered his ability to course correct this offseason even if he did want to, by giving Vucevic ALL of the leverage in negotiations (when he could have traded him for something, anything), and Deebo / Caruso will have lower trade values than at the deadline. He really doesn't have many cards to play to make significant changes this offseason unless he does something wild like trade Zach, or at the least Pat (whose trade value also continuously declines), although I suppose the idea KC Johnson suggested about trading Portland back their own pick for the Knicks pick might be a relatively easy move. That's all assuming he even wants to course correct, which there have been no signs this is the case thus far
Yeah I think any moves they make this off-season will be moves they should have made pre-trade deadline, except for much worse value. Trading Portland their own pick back also makes sense.
And KC will say "see? AK knows what he's doing, he made changes!"
He's European you guys just don't understand his brilliance
A couple things:
> In the first quarter, Demar hit Zach with a lob. Amin said it was the first Demar-to-Zach lob of the season, and I don't recall seeing it before. How weird is that?
> The game was neck-and-neck until the Bulls put their subs in. That seems like a damning indictment of the roster construction.
More like the starters just not giving a shit. There are other games more emblematic of the roster issues.
What the ceiling on best case scenarios for us? For me...beating the bucks and losing the following series would still be a crazy W for me
Bulls win the championship, Alex Caruso named finals MVP.
🥴
Best case scenario? Winning two play-in games.
I watched the last 2 games and enjoyed them.
What makes this all even worse is that the Bulls didn't really even go for it at the trade deadline. Pat Bev was an ok pickup, but only really in the fact that he's a veteran and we basically don't have a point guard on the roster. I love Ayo, but he's better at the 2. Same with Coby. The Bulls needed to improve on offense. The Hawks have put together a top 10 offense with the lowest 3pa rate in the league. How? Did they hit a really high percentage of the few threes they take? Nope, 21st in the league and worse than the Bulls. Offensive rebounding and low turnovers. The Bulls ended up being a top 10 team in TOV%, so they were already ok there and I think Pat Bev helped. they needed to add 3pt shooting or offensive rebounding. Some choices based on who was dealt.
- Mason Plumlee. He is a great offensive rebounder. He's playing 20mpg for the Clips. He would have helped bench offensive rebounding, and you could probably have gotten away with a handful of Vuc/Plumlee combined minutes. Plus, he's tons better than Drummond.
- Matisse Thybulle - He was not valued by the 76ers. Excellent defender, decent 3pt shooter, and a decent offensive rebounder for his size.
- Luke Kennard - The guy shot nearly 50% from 3pt land this year. He'd be deadly in small ball lineups (Bev/Caruso, LaVine, Kennard, DeRozan, Vuc) and would be a fantastic shooter off the bench.
How much would it have taken to get any of these guys? I don't know. But kicking the tires on any of them (Kennard especially) would have been a not so splashy move that could have made us worlds better offensively and shown we were serious about making the playoffs. Instead, all we did is barely make the play in and hurt our future.
The lack of offensive rebounding is also strategy. I almost think BD would rather have a top defensive rating than win more games, he sure gets a lot of praise for selling out for defense. Alex Caruso all-defense 'conversation' is a symptom too
Does performance in the play-in affect the draft odds or are they based only on regular season record? I don't remember the rule and couldn't find confirmation on the NBA site.
only regular season record
though if you make the playoffs, you are out of the lottery
oh so if the bulls miraculously won the next two games it doesn't matter that they're 10th?
not that i think they will. raptors are a horrible matchup for billy's 4 guard lineup lol.
Don't worry, Billy's known for his in-game adjustments. 😉
My question wasn't clear. 9th and 10th seeded teams (i.e. the worst play-in teams) are in the lottery. Based on the Bulls regular season record, we're currently tied for 11th best odds. But if the Bulls win 2 games and make the playoffs, do we slide down to 13th or 14th best odds (or worse)? Or are the draft odds "locked" as of the end of the regular season?
if they win 2 games and make the playoffs, they aren't in the lottery at all. Playoff teams are by definition not lottery teams.
But the Bulls being tied for 11th best odds is locked in whether they win 1 game or not. I suppose root for the Thunder to win 2 games, because they'd go in the playoffs and be replaced in the lottery by a team with a better regular season record than the Bulls.
Will LeBron un-crown himself if they blow the play-in at home #AndHeIsSoStrong
It's just weird to read people think Lavine and Deebo are redundant when the second best net rating 5 man lineup since AS game is the big 3 with Pat Bev and Caruso. Showing all we've really been missing is a legit Ball replacement. Only thing I want to see is us get a real pg in the off season and more 3 and D guys. Seems like every other team just shoots and hits twice as many 3s against us every game.