I don’t really disagree with the idea of trading for a star. Washington tanked and their reward was the 6th pick in a draft with four projected stars, so I understand the argument against tanking in the East.
The problem, of course, is that AK thinks a trade for a star isn’t necessary. He thinks this team is close!
Here’s what’s actually going to happen:
1) They’re going to give Giddey a contract that will be untradeable and will be paying him and Williams a combined $50 million for the next few years.
2) They’re going to sign a vet who Donovan will have buried on the bench by February.
3) They’re going to fail to trade Vuc and K.C. will put out some article in the fall about how Giddey/White/Vuc can be the Bulls version of Haliburton/Nesmith/Turner.
AK’s nickname should be Dr. Strange, because he’s finding a way to manipulate time and ensure we live out the same year over and over again.
Hmm I think I can think of other ways to get a new front office that don't require throwing away future picks for a big name player. Not saying they'd be legal, but someone has to take one for the team, right??
But yeah, this whole Pacers thing is frustrating. They're a fun team to watch and I'm happy for them, but I can only imagine the delusions of grandeur they're giving AK right now.
Just for the record, I live in Indy and kind of follow the Pacers are orders of magnitude better than the Bulls.
Haliburton >>>>>>>>> than Giddey
Siakam >>>>>>>> Matas. I like Matas, but this isn't even a remotely fair comparison.
Nembhard ~ Coby
Turner >>>> Vuc.
Nesmith => The Bulls have no player at all like this on their roster
Mathurin => The Bulls have no player at all like this on their roster
Both Nesmith and Mathurin are just way stronger, longer, better defenders and scorers than the Bulls wings
Toppin => The Bulls have no player at all like this on their roster
McConnell ~ Eh... I think he's better than Tre Jones, and Tre is a free agent.
What I'm saying is, the Bulls have basically none whatsoever of the things that make the Pacers good.
Even if you squint at Giddey vs. Haliburton's first couple of years, Haliburton is better in so many obvious ways. Giddey just isn't the same kind of player and isn't on the path to being the same kind of player.
Out of the rest of the Bulls' flotsam, there's nobody that would beat any of the above mentioned guys in the lineup except Lonzo, who's not really a full time player. Pat, Huerter, Ayo and Collins would be playing very little. They'd be like the Ben Sheppard or Jarace Walker roles. That is to say, they wouldn't be playing much at all.
Think of the Pacers as a puzzle with 8 pieces, with pieces 1 and 2 being about 80% of the total area. Each remaining piece is worth less and more replaceable.
Charitably, the Bulls might have pieces #4 (Coby ~ Nembhard), #7 (Matas ~ Toppin - currently, not saying that's his ceiling), and #8 (Lonzo ~ TJ).
Obi Toppin is pretty unique in general, a power forward pacer. Keeps the pace high, runs opposing big men out, can't defend really, and shoots at a good percentage but the shooting doesn't seem reliable. Rebounds OK, but doesn't really offensive rebound well despite the highlights, probably because his job is to leak out and pace the opposing big man. He is only valuable on a running team, Pacers were smart to snatch him up for some second rounders.
An interesting player, maybe not worth 16 mil in his age 30 season, but depending how he ages that seems about right. There was degradation in his +/- though this year.
What is interesting to me about the Pacers is how they went from a team that finished the regular season 13th in defense, to the tough physical team they've become in the playoffs.
They've got basically three players and the rest of the team are fill-ins. Looking at EPM and BPM, guys like Mathurin, Nebhard and Shepherd are replacement level, but in the post-season they look good. It reminds me of the Heat, when guys like Gabe Vincent suddenly took a leap.
I think part of this is that the refs are swallowing their whistles in the playoffs. All the teams have been playing more aggressively on defense.
Interestingly, they're 9th of the 16 playoff teams in defense, so I don't think they're really changing much of what they've done there, although they did a good job against the Cavs.
You made me look closer and you are right. It's the Pacers' shooting that got them to the Finals. They are the #2 playoff team on offense. Their shooting numbers are crazy. 40/50/80 (as a team!), for a .612 TS%. That's ridiculous.
Yeah, I'm a little surprised they managed that against the Knicks, but when I think about it, the Pacers haven't faced any team with a truly good on-ball defender. The Knicks have good wing defenders, but they're bigger guys that I don't think could really keep up with Haliburton.
Dort, Wallace, Shae and of course Caruso are gonna be a whole different challenge.
I see we're at the "mashing the controller buttons" stage of strategic thinking. Perfect plan as 90% of life is execution rather than the strength of the ideas, and there is no way to button mash well or poorly.
The only strategy for AK is to achieve a balance where the Reinsdorfs believe the Bulls are on the right track without anyone outside of Chicago applying actual win-now pressure on the team.
That’s the actual motivation behind “young players with experience”. He wants to have players who are too young to have lofty expectations attached to them and too old to need his organization’s help in developing.
The president of a $6 billion NBA franchise has the same thought process as an office worker who’s just trying to keep their job while doing as little as possible.
Minus the Jordan years, the Bulls are just about the worst franchise in the NBA with the exception of the Hornets and Clippers. They only made the conference finals three times and two of those were in the 70’s when they only had to win one series to make it.
A Sabonis trade is a lock because (i) AK can just hit "redial" on his phone to get the Kings as we know he hasn't talked to anyone else since the Zach trade, (ii) he's Euro / played with his dad, and (iii) he's the kind of guy that can keep a team in the 6-8 seed range in the lousy East (AK's annual goal).
What? When AK came in, the Bulls were in the middle of a rebuild with multiple young, promising players on good contracts and they had all their picks.
AK wanted to compete immediately so he traded away some of the young talent and a bunch of picks for veteran C-tier stars that didn't fit together and a couple injury-prone role players.
I'm not defending Paxson. Just saying I have zero faith in AK.
Coby is the only guy on this roster that AK inherited. He's also their best player, although the fact that we could argue about that is kind of a problem.
In no other realm of life (aside from politics) would someone be given this kind of a leash to fail repeatedly in public. Two more years for AKME to do what? Fill out the rest of the roster with guys who either can't shoot (too many to mention), can't defend a geriatric, or don't want to be playing basketball at all (PWill)?
Is it because we have the genius Billy D coaching the team until retirement and his son waiting in the wings? Is that AK's big accomplishment?
Gonna start preliminarily talking about the draft here:
I see 3 guys who seem like pretty obvious successful picks in our range
CMB 3/4, mostly 4 - Probably will be gone by the time we pick. He'll be a boom or bust guy, I guess. I don't like his prospects of being a shooter, Draymond at least showed a bit more aptitude there, but he's super productive a good enough athlete, and not as undersized as people think. I'd be happy with him.
Asa Newell 3/4, mostly 4- Nothing pops out as amazing, but everything, size, stats, athleticism is pretty good. Likely will be a somewhat switchable solid defender. I think I'd be happy with him too.
Cedric Coward 2/3 mostly a 3 - Probably mostly a 3. great size and athleticism, good shooter, bad handles, but 3andD potential looks good. Unheralded guy who is rising in workouts. Get him with guys who can get him the ball, and get his handle right, and maybe he really breaks out. Higher risk pick, but this guy has real upside I think.
Not so optimistic
Carter Bryant - Think he's got a significantly better shot and size than Dalen Terry, but it's hard not to look at him and get worst of Dalen Terry (low usage and scoring, bad FT%)/Pat Williams (doesn't play big minutes or even start) vibes. I'd really want to dig into this guys and find out why he's got seeming all world abilities but doesn't
Liam McNeely - good athlete, but really underproductive across the board and not super young.
Kasparas - barely adequate athleticism, I question whether his game translates to the pros. Not super strong or quick, and not a great shooter. Collects assists but TOs a lot. Seems like a poor-man's DeMar.
Noa Essengue 3/4 ? - I have no idea. Looks big and athletic and he's young. Typical European man of mystery. Played for Ulm, which isn't really high level competition. Killian Hayes was looking great there too, so I'm feeling burned on this sort of path once already.
Do not draft
Egor Demin - below average at pretty much everything. Well below average athlete for his position.
Khaman Maluach - poor man's Mark Williams. Doesn't seem like an actually good defender, just the idea of one. I don't think he rates out well compared to most of the better centers drafted in the last few years. Seems really slow.
Derik Queen - slow, undersized, below the rim non-defending center. A poor man's Vuc.
I'm in a similar ballpark - hoping for CMB and would be happy with the swing on Coward.
Newell to me is more in the "OK sure" category, since he he doesn't seem to have a standout skill and doesn't look to be a great 3p shooter or rim protector. But does seem to be a good athlete, and seems like he could be a rotation guy.
I'd bump up Maluach to "OK sure". If he were to be there at 12, I'd be good with his size/length who started playing basketball not so long ago. I do want to dig into his athletic testing numbers and compare against some other big bigs in the recent years.
I'm also probably moderately more interested in Bryant and Essengue, who I'd also put in that "OK sure" category mostly based on physical attributes. And I'm less interested in McNeely, who really doesn't do much for me. Sorber is another big that has some good measurements that people mention a fair amount. I'd probably put him in. that "Not so optimistic" category - feels like a reach at 12, but he's got some things to like.
WRT Maluach I just think it's so hard for a guy to "learn" to play basketball. Especially at center, which defensively requires a whole lot of awareness and judgement. Most centers coming in with a great pedigree and instincts take years to master it.
There's a pretty big track record of guys similar to him who don't pan out. Physically, he looks pretty similar to Udoka Azubuike or Tony Bradley. As far as athletically and physically, he seems really slow. Like his athleticism and jumping is more like, or slightly worse than Clingan and Edy were last year. But they're both much bigger, more skilled players.
So I try to think about the paths to him being a useful player, and I just don't think it's very good. I think we'd have to invest a lot of time in playing him when he won't be very good, and the payoff for that will still be a severely limited guy who's not a good defender at the most important defensive position.
That's especially bad when you have a team with relatively weak defenders like Giddey and Coby, but not good in general. I look at him and just don't see where a mature version of him fits on a good team.
To me Newell is the opposite of that. He's got so many paths to being a useful player, and quite a few to being a really good one.
I'm not dying on Maluach Hill, but he seems a bit more nimble to my eye, and I think you can see the outlines of a dominant defensive player there as a top-end outcome. But if you don't believe that, then he is for sure a "do not draft."
You pay more attention to the college game than I do. I watch Big Ten and the NCAA tournament. I appreciate your comments. I know at 12 we can't be picky about position, but I do think we need a young big.
Maluach seems like a project, he was not helpful to Duke in the tournament like Flagg and Kneuppel. Queen does play below the rim, like Vuc (and Jokic) do. I expect both of those guys to be gone before 12 anyway, but Il would be happy if we could get one of them and see if they could develop.
Aside from those two though, what do you think of the other bigs in the draft. Sorber, Essengue and Beringer all have some momentum going. Do you like any of them?
Queen has actually been dropping due to how terrible his physical tests were at the combine. I believe he's now projected to go in the late teens. He's a hard pass for me. I know he's got some serious skill, but being able to defend the paint is basically the most important job for centers in today's NBA and he can't do that in the slightest.
He also can't stretch the floor with three point shooting, which has become increasingly more important for bigs. I think his ceiling is Alperen Sengun, which is obviously a very good player. But his floor is also insanely low. He'd be a very high risk pick.
Personally, I think the Bulls need to go with the best pick available regardless of position. They're not good enough to be picky in the draft. If BPA is a point guard, you draft a point guard and figure things out in the future. Luckily for the Bulls though, it seems like a lot of the guys projected to go around 12 are 4s or 5s, so there's a decent chance BPA also fits a position of need.
There will be no sure things at #12 for sure. I would not mind at all if we put that pick in a trade to get an actual player.
I am more optimistic about Queen's defense than you are. He's quick for his size and has a high basketball IQ. I think he'll be fine in the pros.
And just looking at some of the recent mocks, SBnation has Queen #12, as do Tankathon and CBS, while ESPN just moved him to #13.
Again, I am not saying Queen is the guy to take, I don't watch enough college oe European league games to know, but we need a big and as you say there will be several to choose from at 12.
I think part of why I'm not high on Queen is just that he's not athletic and provides minimal rim protection. And I'm just so sick of that from Vooch that I want a center who is actually a good defender.
I'll happily admit that Queen is easily one of the most talented offensive players in the draft and could become considerably better if he developed a decent three point shot. He clearly has a ton of upside, which is something the Bulls should at least consider.
I don't know about trading the pick though. I don't know who they could possibly get. I mean, maybe New Orleans or Charlotte would take it (and other assets) for Zion or LaMelo, but I just don't see how either of those guys actually help the Bulls in any meaningful way.
What I meant is I don't see Zion or LaMelo being on a championship team, which ultimately is what I would like the Bulls to be pursuing. I don't see how either of those guys get them closer to a championship than keeping the #12 pick and whatever other assets they would have to give up to get either of those guys.
I also don't really see what KP and Hauser do for the Bulls. Hauser is a solid player on a friendly deal, so I don't really mind him, but you're basically trading away the #12 pick for Hauser, as it's unlikely KP re-signs with the Bulls. That doesn't seem like a great return to me.
The thing about not winning the draft lottery is that it was the one real mega miracle that could turn the tide. Trading for a star with caveats (health, impact, contract value) is really not gonna move the need in that we'd still need a miracle to get out of play-in purgatory.
So our next best path to turning the tide is draft luck (get a Halliburton type of talent with a late lotto pick) and if that happened, then would you really still want to go for an asterisk all-star? Perhaps, but if we already traded our picks to get an asterisk all-star, then we don't have a shot at the draft luck we need.
K.C. is now reporting that the Bulls seem to really like Drake Powell. Forward from North Carolina who didn’t do a whole lot, but aligns with what the Bulls are reportedly looking for and received a Patrick Williams comp.
I have to say, AK’s stubbornness is hilarious. Peter Patton was supposedly fired for being outspoken. He probably said the Bulls need to move on from Williams and AK responded “Not only are we going to keep Patrick Williams, but we’re going to move on from YOU and draft Patrick Williams again!”
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out the logic here. Which now that I think about it, that might be my problem... Anyway, are the Bulls thinking about him as a first round pick? Surely not, since most believe he'll be either a late first rounder or early second rounder. Are they thinking about him for their second round pick? It seems pretty unlikely he falls that far.
Second rounders seem to be pretty flexible these days. I could see him falling or the Bulls moving up to get him.
My thing is that he's a guy who had a 13% Usage rate in college. Nothing stands out particularly well. Every year or two there are a couple guys with insane physical tools who go in the 2nd round and they're usually pretty blah.
I should probably clarify. I wasn't questioning your logic. I was questioning the Bulls' logic in wanting Powell. I agree with you. If he falls and the Bulls can take him with their second round pick, that's totally fine with me. Anything other than that, it's gonna be a pass for me.
He had the Bulls only ahead of Philly, Milwaukee, Washington, and Brooklyn. Charlotte and Toronto were more or less grouped with the Bulls.
But it was funny that they were given by far the least amount of time in the discussion. He liked Buzelis, and the guest (whose opinions I don't really value) really liked Coby White but immediately said he wanted him on a real team.
I think far too much credit was given to the Bulls for not having high-salaried mistakes. It does mean they have financial ability to land a star, but they don't have any other ability.
also: you're the Pelicans. You are stuck in the western conference basement for perpetuity, have nothing to lose if you just ditch the guy, even in a bad trade. Clearly Zion is not moving ticket sales, even before this
What are the informal NBA information networks? Like, how do people know about James Harden in strip clubs or Zion closing down all you can eat buffets? Is this just being on twitter? Or do you have a shoe-shine guy who drops you inside info for a fin?
As John Hollinger said, when they hired Dumars it was like a giant sign lit up to the rest of the league: "don't worry about us, we are not to be taken seriously". Sadly the only movement towards relevance we'll see from that franchise is if they relocate
Didn't AK bring in a two-way guy who had been found guilty (not sure if that's the correct term) of public exposure? This sounds right up his alley, especially if he can get a discount on Zion out of it!
On a more serious note, I hate these situations. You never know if it's athletes just being terrible people or if it's extortion (sextortion?). A crappy situation no matter what.
I just looked it up. He never played for them and was released at the end of December. Apparently, he had an ankle injury that prevented him from playing so the signing was pointless even for the Bulls very low standards.
We need to take our best shot at Giannis. He likes Chicago and he wants to stay in the East. We have a better chance to get him than the maybe 1.7% we had for Flagg.
Buzelis, White and our #12, plus whatever. Probably not enough but let's see.
More probably, we could look to do a deal for Kuminga. He's not an established star, but he's young enough to get better.
I still think (hope?) there's no Giannis trade. But if there is, Bulls picks may not have immediate value, but it could be a good play to bet against them as a franchise, even with Giannis
Saw rumor that Giannis could be interested in the Raptors. Toronto could very easily make a good trade package for Milwaukee (assuming Barnes is the centerpiece, and they have their own picks) and from a 'league health' perspective at least it keeps Giannis in the East
Purely based on his reputation for fighting as well. Was added if Giannis raided the Pacers locker room for the game ball.
Edit: drafted same year as Taj! Thibs played players into the ground but every single Bull went on to either cash in massively or have incredibly long careers.
Every summer we hear about how awful teams want to emulate whatever team is ascending in the NBA. We want [3 stars like the Heat / play 5 out like the Warriors / focus on defense and chemistry like the Pistons / etc]. This talk from NBA losers usually ignores the fact that the team they want to emulate has legit (super)star level talent that they are nowhere close to matching. If the Bulls want to play like the Pacers, who is the Haliburton comp? Giddey (the guy who was benched as soon as his team made the playoffs)? This focus on style is so stupid when your team is bereft of talent.
This is also why I don't understand the FO wanting to draft the best pick available AT A POSITION OF NEED this year. You draft best pick available period. This team doesn't have the talent to pick and choose what position they want to draft for.
I know AK doesn't have the interest nor brains to do it properly, but what do you think about trading down or out of the first round entirely for future picks? It could fit with AKME's "we like our guys" and "continuity" mentality.
Maybe trade down for a late first/early 2nd & something, then draft a center like Yang or Kalkbrenner?
It's going to be hard for a defensively naive rookie to get minutes this year. 3 centers, 2 power forwards and a million guards means all the minutes are already soaked up.
That said, AK is not going to get value for the 1st and he hates 2nd round picks. I can see him trading the pick this year for what winds up as a 20-something pick next year. It would make sense that he would do that.
I don’t really disagree with the idea of trading for a star. Washington tanked and their reward was the 6th pick in a draft with four projected stars, so I understand the argument against tanking in the East.
The problem, of course, is that AK thinks a trade for a star isn’t necessary. He thinks this team is close!
Here’s what’s actually going to happen:
1) They’re going to give Giddey a contract that will be untradeable and will be paying him and Williams a combined $50 million for the next few years.
2) They’re going to sign a vet who Donovan will have buried on the bench by February.
3) They’re going to fail to trade Vuc and K.C. will put out some article in the fall about how Giddey/White/Vuc can be the Bulls version of Haliburton/Nesmith/Turner.
AK’s nickname should be Dr. Strange, because he’s finding a way to manipulate time and ensure we live out the same year over and over again.
Hmm I think I can think of other ways to get a new front office that don't require throwing away future picks for a big name player. Not saying they'd be legal, but someone has to take one for the team, right??
But yeah, this whole Pacers thing is frustrating. They're a fun team to watch and I'm happy for them, but I can only imagine the delusions of grandeur they're giving AK right now.
They have a superstar scorer and a center. They not like us.
You and I know that, but does AK?
Just for the record, I live in Indy and kind of follow the Pacers are orders of magnitude better than the Bulls.
Haliburton >>>>>>>>> than Giddey
Siakam >>>>>>>> Matas. I like Matas, but this isn't even a remotely fair comparison.
Nembhard ~ Coby
Turner >>>> Vuc.
Nesmith => The Bulls have no player at all like this on their roster
Mathurin => The Bulls have no player at all like this on their roster
Both Nesmith and Mathurin are just way stronger, longer, better defenders and scorers than the Bulls wings
Toppin => The Bulls have no player at all like this on their roster
McConnell ~ Eh... I think he's better than Tre Jones, and Tre is a free agent.
What I'm saying is, the Bulls have basically none whatsoever of the things that make the Pacers good.
Even if you squint at Giddey vs. Haliburton's first couple of years, Haliburton is better in so many obvious ways. Giddey just isn't the same kind of player and isn't on the path to being the same kind of player.
Out of the rest of the Bulls' flotsam, there's nobody that would beat any of the above mentioned guys in the lineup except Lonzo, who's not really a full time player. Pat, Huerter, Ayo and Collins would be playing very little. They'd be like the Ben Sheppard or Jarace Walker roles. That is to say, they wouldn't be playing much at all.
Think of the Pacers as a puzzle with 8 pieces, with pieces 1 and 2 being about 80% of the total area. Each remaining piece is worth less and more replaceable.
Charitably, the Bulls might have pieces #4 (Coby ~ Nembhard), #7 (Matas ~ Toppin - currently, not saying that's his ceiling), and #8 (Lonzo ~ TJ).
could also throw in this direct, if low-level, example
Jalen Smith
Pacers let walk in free agency >>>> Bulls sign for 3yr/$27M and benched for Zach Collins
TLDR summary:
NBA Finals team >>>>>>>>Bulls
Obi Toppin is pretty unique in general, a power forward pacer. Keeps the pace high, runs opposing big men out, can't defend really, and shoots at a good percentage but the shooting doesn't seem reliable. Rebounds OK, but doesn't really offensive rebound well despite the highlights, probably because his job is to leak out and pace the opposing big man. He is only valuable on a running team, Pacers were smart to snatch him up for some second rounders.
An interesting player, maybe not worth 16 mil in his age 30 season, but depending how he ages that seems about right. There was degradation in his +/- though this year.
What is interesting to me about the Pacers is how they went from a team that finished the regular season 13th in defense, to the tough physical team they've become in the playoffs.
They've got basically three players and the rest of the team are fill-ins. Looking at EPM and BPM, guys like Mathurin, Nebhard and Shepherd are replacement level, but in the post-season they look good. It reminds me of the Heat, when guys like Gabe Vincent suddenly took a leap.
I think part of this is that the refs are swallowing their whistles in the playoffs. All the teams have been playing more aggressively on defense.
Interestingly, they're 9th of the 16 playoff teams in defense, so I don't think they're really changing much of what they've done there, although they did a good job against the Cavs.
You made me look closer and you are right. It's the Pacers' shooting that got them to the Finals. They are the #2 playoff team on offense. Their shooting numbers are crazy. 40/50/80 (as a team!), for a .612 TS%. That's ridiculous.
Yeah, I'm a little surprised they managed that against the Knicks, but when I think about it, the Pacers haven't faced any team with a truly good on-ball defender. The Knicks have good wing defenders, but they're bigger guys that I don't think could really keep up with Haliburton.
Dort, Wallace, Shae and of course Caruso are gonna be a whole different challenge.
I see we're at the "mashing the controller buttons" stage of strategic thinking. Perfect plan as 90% of life is execution rather than the strength of the ideas, and there is no way to button mash well or poorly.
The only strategy for AK is to achieve a balance where the Reinsdorfs believe the Bulls are on the right track without anyone outside of Chicago applying actual win-now pressure on the team.
That’s the actual motivation behind “young players with experience”. He wants to have players who are too young to have lofty expectations attached to them and too old to need his organization’s help in developing.
The president of a $6 billion NBA franchise has the same thought process as an office worker who’s just trying to keep their job while doing as little as possible.
Minus the Jordan years, the Bulls are just about the worst franchise in the NBA with the exception of the Hornets and Clippers. They only made the conference finals three times and two of those were in the 70’s when they only had to win one series to make it.
I need to get me some of that podcast.
I didn't throw in an example of how this can go even worse than trading 4 firsts for Zion who retires to full time Portillo's ambassador
trading for Domas Sabonis
Bring LeBron and son in.
A Sabonis trade is a lock because (i) AK can just hit "redial" on his phone to get the Kings as we know he hasn't talked to anyone else since the Zach trade, (ii) he's Euro / played with his dad, and (iii) he's the kind of guy that can keep a team in the 6-8 seed range in the lousy East (AK's annual goal).
I still think that is a better result than 'let AK cook with one pick in the teens for the next 4 years'
Really any option with AK at the helm is a terrible one.
I'm a bit of a young player with experience myself. /Dafoe
I think AK is doing a great job for what little he has to work with.
Paxson ruined the Bulls more than AK.
We all forget AK came in to clean up the mess that Paxson made.
I give AK two more years to get this Bulls team back to respectability.
If he fails Reinsdorf will fire him.
That or it’s AKME’s burner account.
What? When AK came in, the Bulls were in the middle of a rebuild with multiple young, promising players on good contracts and they had all their picks.
AK wanted to compete immediately so he traded away some of the young talent and a bunch of picks for veteran C-tier stars that didn't fit together and a couple injury-prone role players.
I'm not defending Paxson. Just saying I have zero faith in AK.
Coby is the only guy on this roster that AK inherited. He's also their best player, although the fact that we could argue about that is kind of a problem.
In no other realm of life (aside from politics) would someone be given this kind of a leash to fail repeatedly in public. Two more years for AKME to do what? Fill out the rest of the roster with guys who either can't shoot (too many to mention), can't defend a geriatric, or don't want to be playing basketball at all (PWill)?
Is it because we have the genius Billy D coaching the team until retirement and his son waiting in the wings? Is that AK's big accomplishment?
Gonna start preliminarily talking about the draft here:
I see 3 guys who seem like pretty obvious successful picks in our range
CMB 3/4, mostly 4 - Probably will be gone by the time we pick. He'll be a boom or bust guy, I guess. I don't like his prospects of being a shooter, Draymond at least showed a bit more aptitude there, but he's super productive a good enough athlete, and not as undersized as people think. I'd be happy with him.
Asa Newell 3/4, mostly 4- Nothing pops out as amazing, but everything, size, stats, athleticism is pretty good. Likely will be a somewhat switchable solid defender. I think I'd be happy with him too.
Cedric Coward 2/3 mostly a 3 - Probably mostly a 3. great size and athleticism, good shooter, bad handles, but 3andD potential looks good. Unheralded guy who is rising in workouts. Get him with guys who can get him the ball, and get his handle right, and maybe he really breaks out. Higher risk pick, but this guy has real upside I think.
Not so optimistic
Carter Bryant - Think he's got a significantly better shot and size than Dalen Terry, but it's hard not to look at him and get worst of Dalen Terry (low usage and scoring, bad FT%)/Pat Williams (doesn't play big minutes or even start) vibes. I'd really want to dig into this guys and find out why he's got seeming all world abilities but doesn't
Liam McNeely - good athlete, but really underproductive across the board and not super young.
Kasparas - barely adequate athleticism, I question whether his game translates to the pros. Not super strong or quick, and not a great shooter. Collects assists but TOs a lot. Seems like a poor-man's DeMar.
Noa Essengue 3/4 ? - I have no idea. Looks big and athletic and he's young. Typical European man of mystery. Played for Ulm, which isn't really high level competition. Killian Hayes was looking great there too, so I'm feeling burned on this sort of path once already.
Do not draft
Egor Demin - below average at pretty much everything. Well below average athlete for his position.
Khaman Maluach - poor man's Mark Williams. Doesn't seem like an actually good defender, just the idea of one. I don't think he rates out well compared to most of the better centers drafted in the last few years. Seems really slow.
Derik Queen - slow, undersized, below the rim non-defending center. A poor man's Vuc.
I'm in a similar ballpark - hoping for CMB and would be happy with the swing on Coward.
Newell to me is more in the "OK sure" category, since he he doesn't seem to have a standout skill and doesn't look to be a great 3p shooter or rim protector. But does seem to be a good athlete, and seems like he could be a rotation guy.
I'd bump up Maluach to "OK sure". If he were to be there at 12, I'd be good with his size/length who started playing basketball not so long ago. I do want to dig into his athletic testing numbers and compare against some other big bigs in the recent years.
I'm also probably moderately more interested in Bryant and Essengue, who I'd also put in that "OK sure" category mostly based on physical attributes. And I'm less interested in McNeely, who really doesn't do much for me. Sorber is another big that has some good measurements that people mention a fair amount. I'd probably put him in. that "Not so optimistic" category - feels like a reach at 12, but he's got some things to like.
WRT Maluach I just think it's so hard for a guy to "learn" to play basketball. Especially at center, which defensively requires a whole lot of awareness and judgement. Most centers coming in with a great pedigree and instincts take years to master it.
There's a pretty big track record of guys similar to him who don't pan out. Physically, he looks pretty similar to Udoka Azubuike or Tony Bradley. As far as athletically and physically, he seems really slow. Like his athleticism and jumping is more like, or slightly worse than Clingan and Edy were last year. But they're both much bigger, more skilled players.
So I try to think about the paths to him being a useful player, and I just don't think it's very good. I think we'd have to invest a lot of time in playing him when he won't be very good, and the payoff for that will still be a severely limited guy who's not a good defender at the most important defensive position.
That's especially bad when you have a team with relatively weak defenders like Giddey and Coby, but not good in general. I look at him and just don't see where a mature version of him fits on a good team.
To me Newell is the opposite of that. He's got so many paths to being a useful player, and quite a few to being a really good one.
I'm not dying on Maluach Hill, but he seems a bit more nimble to my eye, and I think you can see the outlines of a dominant defensive player there as a top-end outcome. But if you don't believe that, then he is for sure a "do not draft."
You pay more attention to the college game than I do. I watch Big Ten and the NCAA tournament. I appreciate your comments. I know at 12 we can't be picky about position, but I do think we need a young big.
Maluach seems like a project, he was not helpful to Duke in the tournament like Flagg and Kneuppel. Queen does play below the rim, like Vuc (and Jokic) do. I expect both of those guys to be gone before 12 anyway, but Il would be happy if we could get one of them and see if they could develop.
Aside from those two though, what do you think of the other bigs in the draft. Sorber, Essengue and Beringer all have some momentum going. Do you like any of them?
Queen has actually been dropping due to how terrible his physical tests were at the combine. I believe he's now projected to go in the late teens. He's a hard pass for me. I know he's got some serious skill, but being able to defend the paint is basically the most important job for centers in today's NBA and he can't do that in the slightest.
He also can't stretch the floor with three point shooting, which has become increasingly more important for bigs. I think his ceiling is Alperen Sengun, which is obviously a very good player. But his floor is also insanely low. He'd be a very high risk pick.
Personally, I think the Bulls need to go with the best pick available regardless of position. They're not good enough to be picky in the draft. If BPA is a point guard, you draft a point guard and figure things out in the future. Luckily for the Bulls though, it seems like a lot of the guys projected to go around 12 are 4s or 5s, so there's a decent chance BPA also fits a position of need.
There will be no sure things at #12 for sure. I would not mind at all if we put that pick in a trade to get an actual player.
I am more optimistic about Queen's defense than you are. He's quick for his size and has a high basketball IQ. I think he'll be fine in the pros.
And just looking at some of the recent mocks, SBnation has Queen #12, as do Tankathon and CBS, while ESPN just moved him to #13.
Again, I am not saying Queen is the guy to take, I don't watch enough college oe European league games to know, but we need a big and as you say there will be several to choose from at 12.
I think part of why I'm not high on Queen is just that he's not athletic and provides minimal rim protection. And I'm just so sick of that from Vooch that I want a center who is actually a good defender.
I'll happily admit that Queen is easily one of the most talented offensive players in the draft and could become considerably better if he developed a decent three point shot. He clearly has a ton of upside, which is something the Bulls should at least consider.
I don't know about trading the pick though. I don't know who they could possibly get. I mean, maybe New Orleans or Charlotte would take it (and other assets) for Zion or LaMelo, but I just don't see how either of those guys actually help the Bulls in any meaningful way.
If you don't think Zion or LaMelo would be meaningful then there is nobody at 12 you're going to like lol.
I think #12 and Vuc would get us KP and Hauser from the Celtics.
What I meant is I don't see Zion or LaMelo being on a championship team, which ultimately is what I would like the Bulls to be pursuing. I don't see how either of those guys get them closer to a championship than keeping the #12 pick and whatever other assets they would have to give up to get either of those guys.
I also don't really see what KP and Hauser do for the Bulls. Hauser is a solid player on a friendly deal, so I don't really mind him, but you're basically trading away the #12 pick for Hauser, as it's unlikely KP re-signs with the Bulls. That doesn't seem like a great return to me.
The thing about not winning the draft lottery is that it was the one real mega miracle that could turn the tide. Trading for a star with caveats (health, impact, contract value) is really not gonna move the need in that we'd still need a miracle to get out of play-in purgatory.
So our next best path to turning the tide is draft luck (get a Halliburton type of talent with a late lotto pick) and if that happened, then would you really still want to go for an asterisk all-star? Perhaps, but if we already traded our picks to get an asterisk all-star, then we don't have a shot at the draft luck we need.
K.C. is now reporting that the Bulls seem to really like Drake Powell. Forward from North Carolina who didn’t do a whole lot, but aligns with what the Bulls are reportedly looking for and received a Patrick Williams comp.
I have to say, AK’s stubbornness is hilarious. Peter Patton was supposedly fired for being outspoken. He probably said the Bulls need to move on from Williams and AK responded “Not only are we going to keep Patrick Williams, but we’re going to move on from YOU and draft Patrick Williams again!”
Powell seems more like Julian Phillips to me. Better shot but a few inches shorter and the same general lack of impact and doing stuff as Phillips.
The guy can positively jump out of the gym. As a second rounder, sure, I'd take him
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out the logic here. Which now that I think about it, that might be my problem... Anyway, are the Bulls thinking about him as a first round pick? Surely not, since most believe he'll be either a late first rounder or early second rounder. Are they thinking about him for their second round pick? It seems pretty unlikely he falls that far.
Second rounders seem to be pretty flexible these days. I could see him falling or the Bulls moving up to get him.
My thing is that he's a guy who had a 13% Usage rate in college. Nothing stands out particularly well. Every year or two there are a couple guys with insane physical tools who go in the 2nd round and they're usually pretty blah.
I should probably clarify. I wasn't questioning your logic. I was questioning the Bulls' logic in wanting Powell. I agree with you. If he falls and the Bulls can take him with their second round pick, that's totally fine with me. Anything other than that, it's gonna be a pass for me.
Zach Lowe did a half-assed Eastern Conference future power ranking.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4pVgwBe3nuOYOHL16iazo1?si=L0HC9F_LQCmzCLo357y4gA
He had the Bulls only ahead of Philly, Milwaukee, Washington, and Brooklyn. Charlotte and Toronto were more or less grouped with the Bulls.
But it was funny that they were given by far the least amount of time in the discussion. He liked Buzelis, and the guest (whose opinions I don't really value) really liked Coby White but immediately said he wanted him on a real team.
I think far too much credit was given to the Bulls for not having high-salaried mistakes. It does mean they have financial ability to land a star, but they don't have any other ability.
The Bulls replaced their one high salaried mistake with lots of mid-salary mistakes
- Vucevic $21
- Pat $18
- Collins $18
- Huerter $18
- Jalen Smith $9
- Jevon Carter $7
- Dalen Terry $5
That's $96M for 7 guys who would probably all be coming off a bench or not playing at all on a good team.
AK drafted the Joker when he was GM for the Denver Nuggets. So he can't be that useless
even a clock is right twice a day....
he was in the front office but at best 2nd in command, maybe 3rd behind Calvin Booth
This guy has to just be trolling, right?
OK, cross Zion off the list then. There are others whose 'risk' does not involve something like this:
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2025/05/zion-williamson-accused-of-rape-abuse.html
also: you're the Pelicans. You are stuck in the western conference basement for perpetuity, have nothing to lose if you just ditch the guy, even in a bad trade. Clearly Zion is not moving ticket sales, even before this
What are the informal NBA information networks? Like, how do people know about James Harden in strip clubs or Zion closing down all you can eat buffets? Is this just being on twitter? Or do you have a shoe-shine guy who drops you inside info for a fin?
Yeah, but I kind've wished you had a guy.
Pelicans are sticking with this. https://www.nola.com/sports/pelicans/zion-williamson-to-remain-the-cornerstone-of-pelicans/article_8aead765-a4fc-4757-b4bb-4f02303a3e43.html
As John Hollinger said, when they hired Dumars it was like a giant sign lit up to the rest of the league: "don't worry about us, we are not to be taken seriously". Sadly the only movement towards relevance we'll see from that franchise is if they relocate
Didn't AK bring in a two-way guy who had been found guilty (not sure if that's the correct term) of public exposure? This sounds right up his alley, especially if he can get a discount on Zion out of it!
On a more serious note, I hate these situations. You never know if it's athletes just being terrible people or if it's extortion (sextortion?). A crappy situation no matter what.
yes, Josh Primo
the Bulls were fortunate to avoid PR flack because nobody gives a shit what they do
I had forgotten that the Bulls signed that guy. According to basketball reference, he was signed and waived the same day likely due to the bad press.
That was just procedural to get him on the GLeague roster, I believe he was with them all year
I just looked it up. He never played for them and was released at the end of December. Apparently, he had an ankle injury that prevented him from playing so the signing was pointless even for the Bulls very low standards.
Ha, thank you! I was clearly unaware
Makes Josh Giddey look positively childish
Yeah, that's a mess.
We need to take our best shot at Giannis. He likes Chicago and he wants to stay in the East. We have a better chance to get him than the maybe 1.7% we had for Flagg.
Buzelis, White and our #12, plus whatever. Probably not enough but let's see.
More probably, we could look to do a deal for Kuminga. He's not an established star, but he's young enough to get better.
I still think (hope?) there's no Giannis trade. But if there is, Bulls picks may not have immediate value, but it could be a good play to bet against them as a franchise, even with Giannis
If Karnisovas tries to sell that to the Bucks, he should wait until Giannis is out of the room.
Saw rumor that Giannis could be interested in the Raptors. Toronto could very easily make a good trade package for Milwaukee (assuming Barnes is the centerpiece, and they have their own picks) and from a 'league health' perspective at least it keeps Giannis in the East
Just blew my mind to learn that bulls legend Jimmy Johns is still in the league and on this pacers team.
Purely based on his reputation for fighting as well. Was added if Giannis raided the Pacers locker room for the game ball.
Edit: drafted same year as Taj! Thibs played players into the ground but every single Bull went on to either cash in massively or have incredibly long careers.
Every summer we hear about how awful teams want to emulate whatever team is ascending in the NBA. We want [3 stars like the Heat / play 5 out like the Warriors / focus on defense and chemistry like the Pistons / etc]. This talk from NBA losers usually ignores the fact that the team they want to emulate has legit (super)star level talent that they are nowhere close to matching. If the Bulls want to play like the Pacers, who is the Haliburton comp? Giddey (the guy who was benched as soon as his team made the playoffs)? This focus on style is so stupid when your team is bereft of talent.
This is also why I don't understand the FO wanting to draft the best pick available AT A POSITION OF NEED this year. You draft best pick available period. This team doesn't have the talent to pick and choose what position they want to draft for.
I know AK doesn't have the interest nor brains to do it properly, but what do you think about trading down or out of the first round entirely for future picks? It could fit with AKME's "we like our guys" and "continuity" mentality.
Maybe trade down for a late first/early 2nd & something, then draft a center like Yang or Kalkbrenner?
It's going to be hard for a defensively naive rookie to get minutes this year. 3 centers, 2 power forwards and a million guards means all the minutes are already soaked up.
That said, AK is not going to get value for the 1st and he hates 2nd round picks. I can see him trading the pick this year for what winds up as a 20-something pick next year. It would make sense that he would do that.