Lonzo seems more like a buy out candidate than a trade candidate though I’m not sure if an insurance payment would be more tempting to Reinsdorf than saving a few million on a buyout.
He’s played in six so he can only play in 10 more games if they want the insurance payment. He probably will get there unless he gets another major injury. A buyout seems likely then.
Three other trade scenarios for our BIG TWO (plus Lonzo's salary slot too):
- Salary match when another team needs to dump or is forced to trade a high-priced disgruntled star (along with much or all of the Bulls' future drafts). Unfortunately, AKME never get the Bulls' name mentioned when such deals become in play (I see maybe Giannis, AD, Zion/BI, even Anthony Edwards -- in the same way that AD, Lebron, Durant, Lillard, Mitchell, Harden, etc got traded/forced their way out...it DOES happen)
- Strongly contending team loses a major piece to injury -- goes all-in on a 2025 fill-in (and has a savvy enough front office to deal with any salary mess down the line)
I'm going OUTSIDE THE BOX here, but bundle Vuc with Coby for Lakers' trash (D'Angelo Russell and Rui Hachimura works) and their 2029 and 2031 picks. Does that do it for them? I mean Reeves, Knecht and Coby are sorta duplicative but it's duplicative at good things, and having all 3 on ultra-cheap contracts would be pretty good as they transition out of the Lebron era. AD is the kind of unicorn that can cover up for many of Vuc's painful limitations on defense, so that pretty much works too.
They probably don't want to give up both picks, though (those are the only two firsts they can trade for now), and if it's just one, the Bulls can get a more recent pick for Coby that won't be dependent on a bad outcome for a team that is basically the #1 free agent destination since the '90s.
who knows what the Lakers are thinking, but if I were them I wouldn't be too concerned with the post-LeBron era at the expense of this year, and they can get a *proven playoff performer* for 2 FRP. And the Bulls have none of those.
I do hope the Bulls have a plan for the summer to get a disgruntled star, or at least be mentioned (like you said, this never happens), if they don't get a sufficiently high pick in the lottery. I don't think they'd deal their pick now before finding out.
In that hypothetical, say Zion, the other team will not want LaVine, but they'd more be willing to take whatever the Bulls got for LaVine this year, even if was simply better contracts. And then Vuc is an expiring contract too.
This is curious to me. Lonzo is only an "asset" if the Bulls are buying. If you have someone that makes a Vucevician salary ($20 million for the next two years), then Lonzo is a good acquisition for you.
So if they were planning a move like that, I would imagine they'd want to do it by the deadline. Lonzo + Vuc are not a bad salary-eater combo for a team that wants to cash out. Admittedly that would ruin the annual strategy of giving fans hope only to gleefully club it to death in July like it was a baby seal.
As far as Vuc goes, it might be worth it to reach out to Denver. Their backup center situation is awful this year, at this point Gordon is the backup 5. Due to this, Jokic is having to play heavy minutes and is going to get worn out by the time the playoffs come. Is it possible that we could pawn off Vuc to them so they can get some decent center play off the bench for the regular season so Jokic can be rested for the playoffs?
Denver's an example of why Vuc making so much is a problem. Yes he'd be a good backup center. But they have been trimming around the edges for years and are over the first apron so they don't have the contracts for non-essential players to make a deal where they take in $20M
Whereas they could trade for Jonas Valanciunas (makes $10M) and send out Zeke Nnaji and Dario Saric
Yeah I think if they had any $20 million salary off their bench, they'd immediately try to break it up into pieces (and pocket a couple million in the process the cheap slobs.)
I suspect they're going to sign one or two guys for 10 days and see if they can squeeze anything out of them. RoLo, Biyombo (somehow only 32, but unlike THT we know Biyombo is lying about his age), maybe a couple of aging PFs like Marcus Morris enter the picture. Has Thad officially retired? I'm not being a fanboy here but if Jeff Fucking Green can play this long...
"they’re firmly in the top ten of the tank race and I’m not worried at all they will be 'too good'"
I do find it ironic that you linked to Tankathon which currently has the Bulls at #15. So they're definitely not "firmly in the top ten" unfortunately. They're not even bottom ten in the standings right now.
Not saying I'm super worried they're going to lose their pick, but they're also not exactly filling me with confidence that they'll keep it.
Right. Hence why I said I'm not super worried they're going to lose their pick. I just thought it was ironic that you linked to Tankathon in your statement about the Bulls being firmly in the top 10 when Tankathon lists the Bulls as being out of the lottery.
Certainly not a big deal. Just gave me a chuckle when I clicked the link and it had the Bulls at 15.
agreed, I found it funny that the mention of the Bulls in trade rumors was so notable last week, when it was just that they were looking to deal the same guys they've been trying to deal for years. Maybe Lonzo and Patrick Williams are new names, but not that surprising they make a lot of money.
It be actual news if the Bulls were proactive and dealt Coby or Ayo. It'd be ironically very Bulls to deal them now as their value has only gone down this year (though not too much I don't think)
yea i dont think their value hasnt changed much. Ayo is having a down year from 3 but Coby is having a pretty similar year and is still hitting 38% from 3 with high volume. Plenty of teams could use him as a top 6th man who would feast against bench units and be able to start at times. His contract is damn good considering his production...same goes for Ayo. I think teams would assume he would be able to get back to at least 35% from 3
I think it's a good idea if Orlando was desperate. Like I do think going from KCP->LaVine would be a positive offense and not too much drop off in defense. But they shouldn't be that worried about their offense, they have Banchero coming back
and then beyond this year is where they really have reason to balk. Franz goes from 7M to 38M Suggs from 9M to 35M. Last year of Banchero's rookie deal, and LaVine makes 2x of KCP.
Boy, those Franz and Suggs raises are staggering. I don't see them contending, though, if they can't add scoring and spacing. I'd argue that KCP and Anthony is $32M in bad money. Consolidating the salary match into Lavine, then replacing the other 2 guards at rookie/vet minimums, while putting Paolo, Franz and Zach out there with great defensive role players might not get them past Boston, but they'd look pretty darn good.
shout-out to the tank brained in their time of need.
Bulls added their play-in losers pool games, and they're against the Hornets and Raptors. Plus the Spurs hilariously are holding out Wemby on Thursday so the Bulls get a W and maybe give them their pick.
All the more reason you can't worry about this stuff! The Bulls are run by morons with no plan, that's the concern. Not that they aren't doing these tanking maneuvers for individual games.
I see the Lakers gave up 134 to the Heat on Wednesday night. Maybe that increases outright desperation, though I doubt the remedy to their ills is LaVine and Vuc
As for LaVine, the more I think about it I can't see why the Lakers, if looking for a big-money player, wouldn't just trade for Brandon Ingram instead.
Ingram doesn't help their spacing, but is bigger, younger, cheaper, contract expires and (if this matters) used to the Lakers crucible
there's the issue where they can't take back additional salary and the Pelicans can't either (they're looking to duck below the tax, about $3M over) but that would just require a third team. And the mid-market Bulls also aren't looking to take on salary (though they have more room.
I think the issue is instead that Ingram will require better assets, for NO to move him, but that market could drop as we get closer to the deadline and they still look hopelessly out of the West playoffs.
Yeah that's not bad! Bc Rockets have a starting center making little they can justify Vuc as backup. Of course would be nice to get some rookie contract or second rounder too
Rockets could still balk because Sengun goes to $35M next year. But they could probably be confident they could move Vuc as an expiring in the summer or have him as flotsam in a star trade
I agree, too, but completely stumped with how that actually happens without taking on an even longer/worse contract. Maybe Beal, Leonard, or Zion if their injury problems continue to worsen (like out for a Lonzo period of time)? Would Miami do Rozier+Duncan for an extra year of Zac? The longer I look at it, the more I’m convinced he’ll be here for the next 3 years unless the Bulls attach assets.
Maybe Indiana would want Vuc? I was just reminded (because they received two DPEs) that both their backup centers are out for the season with achilles injuries. He certainly would fit their style of play.
they're a historically poor franchise so I'm not sure they'll want a $20M backup to Myles Turner, and they can't really play together. But Turner is going to be a FA so maybe this gives them some cover. And they just extended Obi Toppin through 2028 and may regret it already.
Vuc, Craig
for
Toppin, Weisman (expiring)
Maybe Bulls get a 2nd rounder or recently drafted player. I think this is not that constricting cap-wise, because both mid-market teams are below the first apron. Though neither want to even go into the tax...this version would put Indiana in the tax (and not much they'd want to dump) so maybe they say no to Torrey Craig's inclusion
Yes, Vuc with 39 last night against the Wemby-less Spurs frontcourt, and it's getting worrisome that Vuc is "playing too well" to be traded.
The problem, as always, is that AKME doesn't know what they're doing, and don't know the between counting stats and actually being valuable to a team. And if you put a end-of-East-roster All Star selection on Vuc as well, that's going to drive up the asking price far beyond what a rational team would want to give up for the privilege of a $20M backup center
Watched parts of the 3rd quarter of the Pacers game and it tasted like a rice cake if you could figure out how to form, cook and eat a rice cake entirely out of human vomit.
You can play really fast and have guys take a lot of shots and matador on defense as much as you want, but if the players aren't interesting to watch, the team won't be interesting to watch. It's just like watching a bunch of guys scrimmaging.
There's this thing they teach in criminology, if you present a witness with a bunch of details and evidence that don't make sense, it's a natural tendency among people to try to "fix" them and make them make sense. This season never made any sense but I find myself thinking there's got to be some point to this existential exercise other than killing time on a bunch of bad contracts signed 100% by the guy waiting them out. There isn't, but I'm still resistant to that. None of the guys who are bad look "good" because they're playing really fast. I think some of the "good" players actually look worse because of it.
Example:
Coby White drew 50 offensive fouls last year in what everyone thought was a remarkable turnaround from the very poor defender he was in his first two season. That shows that he's a teachable player, a hard worker, a guy who you can look at and see is flexible and able to buy into a team concept, because getting hit in the chest 150 times a year to draw fouls isn't fun or glamorous.
This year he's drawn 3, and while he doesn't look worse than anyone else, he doesn't look good compared to how tough he played defense last year. He basically looks like a replacement-level guy most of the time.
About the only defense possible under this thing seems to be what Lonzo does, poking at the ball. Not sure why most of the guards aren't just gambling for steals at this point because even that (very bad) tactic would sorta be an improvement.
Who the fuck would pay money to watch Josh Giddey take 6 threes? Uglyball. Just ugly. Like they're identifying the worst of every player and putting it under the microscope and broadcasting that on a jumbotron.
Funny you say that! I left the TV on in that room and it seems CHSN is loading up with programming they call "Podcasts LIVE!" Which are literally YouTube podcasts — two guys in boxes with phallic microphones in their face babbling on about who knows what.
So the unique selling proposition of this channel is that it's like YouTube, except on a TV, except you can watch YouTube on a TV, except that in this case: you pay for it.
Lonzo seems more like a buy out candidate than a trade candidate though I’m not sure if an insurance payment would be more tempting to Reinsdorf than saving a few million on a buyout.
They're only eligible for the insurance reimbursement if he misses 80% of games
He’s played in six so he can only play in 10 more games if they want the insurance payment. He probably will get there unless he gets another major injury. A buyout seems likely then.
Three other trade scenarios for our BIG TWO (plus Lonzo's salary slot too):
- Salary match when another team needs to dump or is forced to trade a high-priced disgruntled star (along with much or all of the Bulls' future drafts). Unfortunately, AKME never get the Bulls' name mentioned when such deals become in play (I see maybe Giannis, AD, Zion/BI, even Anthony Edwards -- in the same way that AD, Lebron, Durant, Lillard, Mitchell, Harden, etc got traded/forced their way out...it DOES happen)
- Strongly contending team loses a major piece to injury -- goes all-in on a 2025 fill-in (and has a savvy enough front office to deal with any salary mess down the line)
- Unadulterated trade deadline desperation.
I'm going OUTSIDE THE BOX here, but bundle Vuc with Coby for Lakers' trash (D'Angelo Russell and Rui Hachimura works) and their 2029 and 2031 picks. Does that do it for them? I mean Reeves, Knecht and Coby are sorta duplicative but it's duplicative at good things, and having all 3 on ultra-cheap contracts would be pretty good as they transition out of the Lebron era. AD is the kind of unicorn that can cover up for many of Vuc's painful limitations on defense, so that pretty much works too.
They probably don't want to give up both picks, though (those are the only two firsts they can trade for now), and if it's just one, the Bulls can get a more recent pick for Coby that won't be dependent on a bad outcome for a team that is basically the #1 free agent destination since the '90s.
who knows what the Lakers are thinking, but if I were them I wouldn't be too concerned with the post-LeBron era at the expense of this year, and they can get a *proven playoff performer* for 2 FRP. And the Bulls have none of those.
I do hope the Bulls have a plan for the summer to get a disgruntled star, or at least be mentioned (like you said, this never happens), if they don't get a sufficiently high pick in the lottery. I don't think they'd deal their pick now before finding out.
In that hypothetical, say Zion, the other team will not want LaVine, but they'd more be willing to take whatever the Bulls got for LaVine this year, even if was simply better contracts. And then Vuc is an expiring contract too.
This is curious to me. Lonzo is only an "asset" if the Bulls are buying. If you have someone that makes a Vucevician salary ($20 million for the next two years), then Lonzo is a good acquisition for you.
So if they were planning a move like that, I would imagine they'd want to do it by the deadline. Lonzo + Vuc are not a bad salary-eater combo for a team that wants to cash out. Admittedly that would ruin the annual strategy of giving fans hope only to gleefully club it to death in July like it was a baby seal.
As far as Vuc goes, it might be worth it to reach out to Denver. Their backup center situation is awful this year, at this point Gordon is the backup 5. Due to this, Jokic is having to play heavy minutes and is going to get worn out by the time the playoffs come. Is it possible that we could pawn off Vuc to them so they can get some decent center play off the bench for the regular season so Jokic can be rested for the playoffs?
Denver's an example of why Vuc making so much is a problem. Yes he'd be a good backup center. But they have been trimming around the edges for years and are over the first apron so they don't have the contracts for non-essential players to make a deal where they take in $20M
Whereas they could trade for Jonas Valanciunas (makes $10M) and send out Zeke Nnaji and Dario Saric
SAD BUT TRUUUUUUEEEEE
Yeah I think if they had any $20 million salary off their bench, they'd immediately try to break it up into pieces (and pocket a couple million in the process the cheap slobs.)
I suspect they're going to sign one or two guys for 10 days and see if they can squeeze anything out of them. RoLo, Biyombo (somehow only 32, but unlike THT we know Biyombo is lying about his age), maybe a couple of aging PFs like Marcus Morris enter the picture. Has Thad officially retired? I'm not being a fanboy here but if Jeff Fucking Green can play this long...
There's no way THT is 24, these are lies spread by liars to make us look foolish in front of the other children.
This guy looks like he's going to show up multiple times in a youtube "Baby Momma Drama!" compilation.
He just had his birthday too!
"they’re firmly in the top ten of the tank race and I’m not worried at all they will be 'too good'"
I do find it ironic that you linked to Tankathon which currently has the Bulls at #15. So they're definitely not "firmly in the top ten" unfortunately. They're not even bottom ten in the standings right now.
Not saying I'm super worried they're going to lose their pick, but they're also not exactly filling me with confidence that they'll keep it.
Tankathon assumes the 8th place team makes the playoffs
Right. Hence why I said I'm not super worried they're going to lose their pick. I just thought it was ironic that you linked to Tankathon in your statement about the Bulls being firmly in the top 10 when Tankathon lists the Bulls as being out of the lottery.
Certainly not a big deal. Just gave me a chuckle when I clicked the link and it had the Bulls at 15.
the only true positive assets we have are Coby and Ayo. Love them both but might as well sell high
i think Coby could fetch 1 FRP, Ayo could bring a couple 2nds
agreed, I found it funny that the mention of the Bulls in trade rumors was so notable last week, when it was just that they were looking to deal the same guys they've been trying to deal for years. Maybe Lonzo and Patrick Williams are new names, but not that surprising they make a lot of money.
It be actual news if the Bulls were proactive and dealt Coby or Ayo. It'd be ironically very Bulls to deal them now as their value has only gone down this year (though not too much I don't think)
yea i dont think their value hasnt changed much. Ayo is having a down year from 3 but Coby is having a pretty similar year and is still hitting 38% from 3 with high volume. Plenty of teams could use him as a top 6th man who would feast against bench units and be able to start at times. His contract is damn good considering his production...same goes for Ayo. I think teams would assume he would be able to get back to at least 35% from 3
Hypothetical:
ORL gets: Lavine
CHI gets: KCP, Cole Anthony, Jett Howard, Caleb Houstan, '25 2nd rounder
ORL takes out the trash from their guard rotation, puts a nice patch on their anemic offense
CHI gets a pick and smaller contracts that are easier to deal off, plus tanks harder (-5 wins!)
I think it's a good idea if Orlando was desperate. Like I do think going from KCP->LaVine would be a positive offense and not too much drop off in defense. But they shouldn't be that worried about their offense, they have Banchero coming back
and then beyond this year is where they really have reason to balk. Franz goes from 7M to 38M Suggs from 9M to 35M. Last year of Banchero's rookie deal, and LaVine makes 2x of KCP.
Boy, those Franz and Suggs raises are staggering. I don't see them contending, though, if they can't add scoring and spacing. I'd argue that KCP and Anthony is $32M in bad money. Consolidating the salary match into Lavine, then replacing the other 2 guards at rookie/vet minimums, while putting Paolo, Franz and Zach out there with great defensive role players might not get them past Boston, but they'd look pretty darn good.
shout-out to the tank brained in their time of need.
Bulls added their play-in losers pool games, and they're against the Hornets and Raptors. Plus the Spurs hilariously are holding out Wemby on Thursday so the Bulls get a W and maybe give them their pick.
All the more reason you can't worry about this stuff! The Bulls are run by morons with no plan, that's the concern. Not that they aren't doing these tanking maneuvers for individual games.
I see the Lakers gave up 134 to the Heat on Wednesday night. Maybe that increases outright desperation, though I doubt the remedy to their ills is LaVine and Vuc
As for LaVine, the more I think about it I can't see why the Lakers, if looking for a big-money player, wouldn't just trade for Brandon Ingram instead.
Ingram doesn't help their spacing, but is bigger, younger, cheaper, contract expires and (if this matters) used to the Lakers crucible
there's the issue where they can't take back additional salary and the Pelicans can't either (they're looking to duck below the tax, about $3M over) but that would just require a third team. And the mid-market Bulls also aren't looking to take on salary (though they have more room.
I think the issue is instead that Ingram will require better assets, for NO to move him, but that market could drop as we get closer to the deadline and they still look hopelessly out of the West playoffs.
Well nevermind Ingram is out weeks with an ankle sprain. I'd say bubble wrap LaVine, but he's playing low intensity ball so likely minimal risk
Vuc for Jeff Green and Steven Adams?
Yeah that's not bad! Bc Rockets have a starting center making little they can justify Vuc as backup. Of course would be nice to get some rookie contract or second rounder too
Rockets could still balk because Sengun goes to $35M next year. But they could probably be confident they could move Vuc as an expiring in the summer or have him as flotsam in a star trade
Could sub out Tate (also 1 yr) or Landale (multi year) for Jeff Green….
Also Simmons and Whitehead for Zach and our 1st and the Portland 1st.
One thing I'm in rare agreement with AKME is not including assets just to get rid of Zach. Maybe Dalen Terry (if he's considered an asset)
I agree, too, but completely stumped with how that actually happens without taking on an even longer/worse contract. Maybe Beal, Leonard, or Zion if their injury problems continue to worsen (like out for a Lonzo period of time)? Would Miami do Rozier+Duncan for an extra year of Zac? The longer I look at it, the more I’m convinced he’ll be here for the next 3 years unless the Bulls attach assets.
How do you follow up that great trade proposal with Vooch to the Rockets with this one? My mind is melting!
I just want him gone!!!
So do I, but I don't want our picks gone too.
If you start trading picks you might as well just close down the franchise and rent out the UC as an Airbnb
Maybe Indiana would want Vuc? I was just reminded (because they received two DPEs) that both their backup centers are out for the season with achilles injuries. He certainly would fit their style of play.
they're a historically poor franchise so I'm not sure they'll want a $20M backup to Myles Turner, and they can't really play together. But Turner is going to be a FA so maybe this gives them some cover. And they just extended Obi Toppin through 2028 and may regret it already.
Vuc, Craig
for
Toppin, Weisman (expiring)
Maybe Bulls get a 2nd rounder or recently drafted player. I think this is not that constricting cap-wise, because both mid-market teams are below the first apron. Though neither want to even go into the tax...this version would put Indiana in the tax (and not much they'd want to dump) so maybe they say no to Torrey Craig's inclusion
Vuc, being an All-Star, will not be traded to be a backup to a non-All-Star no matter how much actual sense it makes.
Yes, Vuc with 39 last night against the Wemby-less Spurs frontcourt, and it's getting worrisome that Vuc is "playing too well" to be traded.
The problem, as always, is that AKME doesn't know what they're doing, and don't know the between counting stats and actually being valuable to a team. And if you put a end-of-East-roster All Star selection on Vuc as well, that's going to drive up the asking price far beyond what a rational team would want to give up for the privilege of a $20M backup center
Spurs game thread -> https://open.substack.com/chat/posts/40e2c929-c44e-4cd8-b299-54f99d88b421
LaVine has the best +/- on the team (non-garbage-time-players) and it's not close? That's different, and welcome.
Would have been welcome years ago. Don't exactly love it now though.
Pacers game thread and roster snapshot: https://open.substack.com/chat/posts/ff5736c9-bf86-4f9b-8d75-df676c0796f1
Watched parts of the 3rd quarter of the Pacers game and it tasted like a rice cake if you could figure out how to form, cook and eat a rice cake entirely out of human vomit.
You can play really fast and have guys take a lot of shots and matador on defense as much as you want, but if the players aren't interesting to watch, the team won't be interesting to watch. It's just like watching a bunch of guys scrimmaging.
There's this thing they teach in criminology, if you present a witness with a bunch of details and evidence that don't make sense, it's a natural tendency among people to try to "fix" them and make them make sense. This season never made any sense but I find myself thinking there's got to be some point to this existential exercise other than killing time on a bunch of bad contracts signed 100% by the guy waiting them out. There isn't, but I'm still resistant to that. None of the guys who are bad look "good" because they're playing really fast. I think some of the "good" players actually look worse because of it.
Example:
Coby White drew 50 offensive fouls last year in what everyone thought was a remarkable turnaround from the very poor defender he was in his first two season. That shows that he's a teachable player, a hard worker, a guy who you can look at and see is flexible and able to buy into a team concept, because getting hit in the chest 150 times a year to draw fouls isn't fun or glamorous.
This year he's drawn 3, and while he doesn't look worse than anyone else, he doesn't look good compared to how tough he played defense last year. He basically looks like a replacement-level guy most of the time.
About the only defense possible under this thing seems to be what Lonzo does, poking at the ball. Not sure why most of the guards aren't just gambling for steals at this point because even that (very bad) tactic would sorta be an improvement.
Who the fuck would pay money to watch Josh Giddey take 6 threes? Uglyball. Just ugly. Like they're identifying the worst of every player and putting it under the microscope and broadcasting that on a jumbotron.
Maybe this is why they made it so hard to watch CHSN for so long 😏
Funny you say that! I left the TV on in that room and it seems CHSN is loading up with programming they call "Podcasts LIVE!" Which are literally YouTube podcasts — two guys in boxes with phallic microphones in their face babbling on about who knows what.
So the unique selling proposition of this channel is that it's like YouTube, except on a TV, except you can watch YouTube on a TV, except that in this case: you pay for it.