It is so obvious with the timing and the secrecy of the surgery that this was a means to block a trade. Klutch sucks for pulling this but the FO could have avoided this mess by trading him much earlier. Just another indictment of their ineptitude.
What's interesting about Zach's career with the Bulls is that it's almost like it never happened at all. Has there ever been a more unmemorable player in team history? If you were to make a list of Zach's top 5 best plays or games, what would be on it? The only performance I really remember is that crazy Hornets comeback win in 2019. You see a lot of LaVine jerseys, but isn't he just the default option as opposed to a player someone really likes? Has anyone ever heard someone say that Zach is their favorite player? What a weird career.
I (trollishly) make the point that if you take the last ten years of Bulls basketball (2013/14 to today) and consider the top 5 bulls players in terms of impact and memorability, Nate easily makes the list. He is probably even top 3 if you have him ahead of Demar.
Jimmy/Jo/Nate/Demar and I do not even know who to put fifth. Maybe Caruso? Or Coby? It is freakin' dire. A lost decade.
Wade is dead last on the list. He does not even sniff Garrett Temple in terms of impact and kind've remembering his face.
God damn. I am looking at the 17/18 team. Top five in terms of minutes played are:
Justin Holiday / Denzel / Lauri / Robin Lopez / Jerian Grant.
Jesus. That might be the least memorable basketball team in human history. Which Grant was Jerian? The one with no jumpshot? And was this the birth of the Bulls forming teams entirely out of shitty brothers? Isn't Jerian a shitty cousin or something?
I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, but could you elaborate on how this whole thing would work out if Zach were truly getting surgery just to avoid a trade?
Like he obviously can't just have a surgery done on something that doesn't actually need it. Sure, maybe it's something that would have eventually needed surgery and he's deciding to do it now to avoid a trade, but that's the only thing I can think of.
it's avoiding a trade and also avoiding coming back to the Bulls. I'm cynically assuming if he was getting traded to the Lakers he'd play through discomfort
So basically operating under the assumption Zach did have an issue with his foot that was able to be played through, but he chose to have the surgery now to avoid a potential trade to a destination where he wouldn't want to go? If so, AK better trade him and the rest of our second round picks through 2030 (not that there's that many of them) to Detroit for nothing but expirings just to shove it in his face.
that's kind of my point, Klutch has won: LaVine is toxic and no team is going to trade for him before knowing his willingness or ability to play basketball for them
His situation is starting to look like John Wall's, even down to the salary amounts. Wall sat around in Houston for 3 years, even got sent home. Remarkable to think he might end up just sitting at home or Ben Simmonsing on the bench in street clothes until he's 32.
We don't know enough about this surgery to know for sure, but this seems to me like Shaq getting a surgery on "company time."
I don't want to overdo it here, but this season feels like the end of Zach's career (or at least his relevance in the NBA). He can't shake the "injury prone" label and his answer to all of the people who called him an empty calorie, losing player is to have his team play better without him. I don't think Zach is a bad guy but he definitely is a pointless player.
yeah I think he and Klutch made this calculation: scenarios where he comes back, not fully healthy, but it's playing for a go-nowhere team like the Bulls or Pistons, that only hurts his standing in the league and maybe long-term physically too
It’s probably time to trot out the reminder that they traded Jimmy for Zach in order to replace an older star. Now Zach’s time has expired, Jimmy is still a star, and Zach still can’t carry Jimmy’s sneakers.
Damn man you know what this is spot on and im a Zach fan. He was billed as the franchise player when the Bulls paid him not once but twice and we've been stuck every since. The lose of Zo is really what set this franchise back but if Zach was who the front office paid him to be we would be better than we have been. We're a team of mismatched pieces and unfortunately we're stuck with Zach for the foreseeable future bc NOBODY is trading for that contract anytime soon
What an odd operation. Caruso and Drummond, are hot, Hot, HOT right now, and the Bulls are holding on for...well, no one really knows what they are holding on for. Play-in game? The climb to .500? Caruso to win you a game or two ? I hear they they are holding on for an OG Anunoby-like offer. Only problem is, AC is not OG. At all. Just a weird bunch.
Sadly, I expect that the Bulls will look back in a year or two, and realize that trading peak Caruso could have transformed their organization, but they pointlessly held onto him like they were clutching pearls. Draft picks. Cost-controlled players. Really just a chance to transform their operation, but they punted, as they were unable to make critical decisions regarding the state of their operation.
Yep, this is definitely their philosophy, and probably why they've traded away so many draft picks. No GM has an untarnished draft record, but NEVER drafting might be the solution to that problem!
Welp, you finally did it. I was so up for this season despite all the preseason snark here. Proud I made it to game 50 before spiraling down the BaB doom hell hole. This must be how Arty feels, getting klutched or Zached or klached or whatever you wanna call it. Well played and mission accomplished, YFBB. Time to start drinking I guess
Laughing is better. Nobody made the right move here, nobody. I'd liken it to the Stooges, but at least Moe could poke Curly in the eye one out of three tries.
The latest from Marks and Bontemps at ESPN basically states, in clear language, what "signals" media has been reporting but not interpreting: Zach is a third option paid like a first, and that is now radioactive:
"Take Chicago Bulls star Zach LaVine. Before LaVine injured his right foot, ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski reported there wasn't much of a market for the former All-Star, despite his status as a high-scoring wing and a potent 3-point shooter. That's because he is owed roughly $138 million over the next three seasons, which is the kind of expenditure for a third star that virtually guarantees that team will hit the second apron."
Zach was signed with the logic that even if he wasn't a #1 option, a deep-pocketed team like the Clippers or Nets would always be around to pick up the pieces, even though Chicago might not like the price. I don't think that's true anymore. That means there is very little logic to signing a "maybe" guy like Zach LaVine to a second veteran extension that pushes his salary up.
Consider what he does on a basketball court. It's not something to scoff at. But are you getting anything from Zach LaVine that you're not getting from Dejounte Murray ($18m, under contract for the next 3 years)? MIkal Bridges ($21m, under contract the next two years)? Would argue they actually give you a lot more, for less. Zach was in that group up until this extension (ignoring the skill set question), but not now.
yup, if there was any thought to the rising cap meaning Zach's contract would look better, they were not considering the second apron penalties curbing spending...though they probably should have because I'm sure Reinsdorf was very much behind getting that in the new CBA
Tinfoil hat time. I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but these videos of Lonzo at practice are rubbing me the wrong way. Like the dude just so happens to appear at practice THE WEEK OF THE TRADE DEADLINE when all of the rumors are that this front office has no intentions of trading away its assets.
That can't be coincidence, right? It's got to be some sort of way to get the casuals to forget about the mess this team is in and get excited that Lonzo can shoot a basketball and will be back next year!! Woohoo!!!!
I can't remember for the life of me, but wasn't it before some other important deadline or something when we saw those videos of Lonzo dunking and running on a treadmill?
I just love that whenever the media scrutinesring starts to pick up our front office trots Lonzo out to distract everyone.
Well, we are getting to that point of the season when, after the superbowl, social media will start to switch attention onto the NBA. Will anyone notice that the Bulls actually exist? Probably not, at least if they don't make a trade.
Just setting aside what the Bulls should and could do I have the idea that OKC would be a good trading partner. The way they play, they could use all of DeMar Drummond and Caruso, and they have guys (Giddey Dieng, picks) they might actually give
But I think the cases for Drummond and Caruso are obvious.
DeMar might be less obvious since folks are so polarized on him, but it's obvious to me that he's a high level player on an expiring contract, and his experience and shot creation seem like things OKC is relatively lacking in outside of SGA. He'd be super helpful in the playoffs for them.
Generally, I'd look at this like combining three individually sensible trades:
1. Caruso for Giddey (+low level first?)
2. Demar for Bertas (NG next year), Micic, Dieng, (+low level first?)
3. Drummond for Poku + multiple decent seconds.
(Bulls include Craig, Taylor to make roster work. Craig actually might help them.
OKC
G- SGA, Mann,
G- Caruso, Dort, Wallace, Joe
F- DeMar, /Caruso/Dort
F- Jalen Williams, Kenrich Williams, Craig
C- Chet, Drummond, Jaylin Williams
Long story short, they add two guys who will be in their already stacked playoff rotation.
Pretty bleak, but Giddey and Dieng have realistic chances of becoming high level players. Our finances are under control (outside of the massive dead money hits).
I'd be trying like hell to move Vuc too, but don't know if it can be done. The Bulls are madly in love with him though, so they won't.
it's half the money, but Bulls should have at least similar if not more urgency to move off of Vuc as they (maybe?) were with Zach.
As terrible as Vuc has been, this is his peak value going forward. He'll only age further and become not even plausibly playable on a good team. For this deadline you could maybe dupe the Warriors, Lakers, or Mavs (or Thunder, though they're harder to dupe because they're cheap) into thinking Vuc could be in their playoff rotation.
I could see something like Vuc for Rui and Jaxson Hayes. I could actually say it makes sense, because one of the few things Vuc does pretty well is body up Jokic, and with AD, he won't completely crater their defense. It's probably the best possible fit out there for him. And the money is about equal.
The urgency on Zach was on his part, mostly. He asked out. Vuc isn't going to ask out I don't think.
Anyway, I think Vuc sucks ass, but in the case where we're trading away AC and DeMar, while I'd certainly like to trade Vuc, he's an ideal tank commander. He'll double-double the Bulls to an unending strong of losses.
I think the Mavs could use Vuc. They're vulnerable in the middle, last night Lively was out and they started Kleber at center. That's good practice (they won, handily) but Vuc could soak up innings in the regular season, and be a spot opponent for Jokic (or...Gobert? very few centers in the West playoffs actually). I assumed they'd be a slow team that Vuc could fit in with, but actually they're 8th in pace
anyway it's just finding a team that would play Vuc at all, the real prize would be getting Caruso. For what they'd send back...they're rumored to have buyers remorse on Grant Williams and offered him for Portis, which is strange to me. Richaun Holmes is negative salary, though not as negative as Vuc.
Kidd has a horrible history with big men. That Kleber/Powell tandem is basically his preference and I'm not sure why. Last year they had JaVale and Wood and he exiled both of them despite the fact that, well, he was playing Kleber and Powell. Vucevic would probably have reason to fear the same treatment.
Then again I often fantasize about Vucevic only playing garbage minutes myself...
I've also though OKC would be a good trade partner if AKME decided they were bored and wanted to shake things up. Hadn't really thought of DeRozan being part of that, but I like your logic. Not sure we could trade all three of those guys to OKC, but I'd be happy with any two of them.
Let's just say I'd be more surprised if they did something by the deadline than if they didn't do anything. It's hard to argue with history.
It is so obvious with the timing and the secrecy of the surgery that this was a means to block a trade. Klutch sucks for pulling this but the FO could have avoided this mess by trading him much earlier. Just another indictment of their ineptitude.
What's interesting about Zach's career with the Bulls is that it's almost like it never happened at all. Has there ever been a more unmemorable player in team history? If you were to make a list of Zach's top 5 best plays or games, what would be on it? The only performance I really remember is that crazy Hornets comeback win in 2019. You see a lot of LaVine jerseys, but isn't he just the default option as opposed to a player someone really likes? Has anyone ever heard someone say that Zach is their favorite player? What a weird career.
Are you saying Zach is the Cleveland of Bulls players?
For some perspective, Nate Robinson player exactly one season for the Bulls, and I would consider him to be far more memorable than Lavine!
Nate is an absolute legend, I’ll love him forever!
I (trollishly) make the point that if you take the last ten years of Bulls basketball (2013/14 to today) and consider the top 5 bulls players in terms of impact and memorability, Nate easily makes the list. He is probably even top 3 if you have him ahead of Demar.
Jimmy/Jo/Nate/Demar and I do not even know who to put fifth. Maybe Caruso? Or Coby? It is freakin' dire. A lost decade.
Wade is dead last on the list. He does not even sniff Garrett Temple in terms of impact and kind've remembering his face.
God damn. I am looking at the 17/18 team. Top five in terms of minutes played are:
Justin Holiday / Denzel / Lauri / Robin Lopez / Jerian Grant.
Jesus. That might be the least memorable basketball team in human history. Which Grant was Jerian? The one with no jumpshot? And was this the birth of the Bulls forming teams entirely out of shitty brothers? Isn't Jerian a shitty cousin or something?
Post-ACL Rose makes the list. Marco Belinelli probably also makes the top ten, which is really wild.
I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, but could you elaborate on how this whole thing would work out if Zach were truly getting surgery just to avoid a trade?
Like he obviously can't just have a surgery done on something that doesn't actually need it. Sure, maybe it's something that would have eventually needed surgery and he's deciding to do it now to avoid a trade, but that's the only thing I can think of.
it's avoiding a trade and also avoiding coming back to the Bulls. I'm cynically assuming if he was getting traded to the Lakers he'd play through discomfort
So basically operating under the assumption Zach did have an issue with his foot that was able to be played through, but he chose to have the surgery now to avoid a potential trade to a destination where he wouldn't want to go? If so, AK better trade him and the rest of our second round picks through 2030 (not that there's that many of them) to Detroit for nothing but expirings just to shove it in his face.
that's kind of my point, Klutch has won: LaVine is toxic and no team is going to trade for him before knowing his willingness or ability to play basketball for them
His situation is starting to look like John Wall's, even down to the salary amounts. Wall sat around in Houston for 3 years, even got sent home. Remarkable to think he might end up just sitting at home or Ben Simmonsing on the bench in street clothes until he's 32.
We don't know enough about this surgery to know for sure, but this seems to me like Shaq getting a surgery on "company time."
I don't want to overdo it here, but this season feels like the end of Zach's career (or at least his relevance in the NBA). He can't shake the "injury prone" label and his answer to all of the people who called him an empty calorie, losing player is to have his team play better without him. I don't think Zach is a bad guy but he definitely is a pointless player.
yeah I think he and Klutch made this calculation: scenarios where he comes back, not fully healthy, but it's playing for a go-nowhere team like the Bulls or Pistons, that only hurts his standing in the league and maybe long-term physically too
It’s probably time to trot out the reminder that they traded Jimmy for Zach in order to replace an older star. Now Zach’s time has expired, Jimmy is still a star, and Zach still can’t carry Jimmy’s sneakers.
Damn man you know what this is spot on and im a Zach fan. He was billed as the franchise player when the Bulls paid him not once but twice and we've been stuck every since. The lose of Zo is really what set this franchise back but if Zach was who the front office paid him to be we would be better than we have been. We're a team of mismatched pieces and unfortunately we're stuck with Zach for the foreseeable future bc NOBODY is trading for that contract anytime soon
Because we like our guys: AK
What an odd operation. Caruso and Drummond, are hot, Hot, HOT right now, and the Bulls are holding on for...well, no one really knows what they are holding on for. Play-in game? The climb to .500? Caruso to win you a game or two ? I hear they they are holding on for an OG Anunoby-like offer. Only problem is, AC is not OG. At all. Just a weird bunch.
Sadly, I expect that the Bulls will look back in a year or two, and realize that trading peak Caruso could have transformed their organization, but they pointlessly held onto him like they were clutching pearls. Draft picks. Cost-controlled players. Really just a chance to transform their operation, but they punted, as they were unable to make critical decisions regarding the state of their operation.
Sad.
One perspective, which I’m becoming increasingly accepting of, is that if they don’t make moves then they can’t make bad moves.
Yep, this is definitely their philosophy, and probably why they've traded away so many draft picks. No GM has an untarnished draft record, but NEVER drafting might be the solution to that problem!
It’s all making sense now. This shit’s chess it ain’t checkers.
Welp, you finally did it. I was so up for this season despite all the preseason snark here. Proud I made it to game 50 before spiraling down the BaB doom hell hole. This must be how Arty feels, getting klutched or Zached or klached or whatever you wanna call it. Well played and mission accomplished, YFBB. Time to start drinking I guess
Laughing is better. Nobody made the right move here, nobody. I'd liken it to the Stooges, but at least Moe could poke Curly in the eye one out of three tries.
The latest from Marks and Bontemps at ESPN basically states, in clear language, what "signals" media has been reporting but not interpreting: Zach is a third option paid like a first, and that is now radioactive:
"Take Chicago Bulls star Zach LaVine. Before LaVine injured his right foot, ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski reported there wasn't much of a market for the former All-Star, despite his status as a high-scoring wing and a potent 3-point shooter. That's because he is owed roughly $138 million over the next three seasons, which is the kind of expenditure for a third star that virtually guarantees that team will hit the second apron."
Zach was signed with the logic that even if he wasn't a #1 option, a deep-pocketed team like the Clippers or Nets would always be around to pick up the pieces, even though Chicago might not like the price. I don't think that's true anymore. That means there is very little logic to signing a "maybe" guy like Zach LaVine to a second veteran extension that pushes his salary up.
Consider what he does on a basketball court. It's not something to scoff at. But are you getting anything from Zach LaVine that you're not getting from Dejounte Murray ($18m, under contract for the next 3 years)? MIkal Bridges ($21m, under contract the next two years)? Would argue they actually give you a lot more, for less. Zach was in that group up until this extension (ignoring the skill set question), but not now.
yup, if there was any thought to the rising cap meaning Zach's contract would look better, they were not considering the second apron penalties curbing spending...though they probably should have because I'm sure Reinsdorf was very much behind getting that in the new CBA
That's a great point, he was 100% behind this if he didn't propose it himself.
Tinfoil hat time. I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but these videos of Lonzo at practice are rubbing me the wrong way. Like the dude just so happens to appear at practice THE WEEK OF THE TRADE DEADLINE when all of the rumors are that this front office has no intentions of trading away its assets.
That can't be coincidence, right? It's got to be some sort of way to get the casuals to forget about the mess this team is in and get excited that Lonzo can shoot a basketball and will be back next year!! Woohoo!!!!
I felt the same way. Kinda icky that a beat writer would tweet out pictures for no reason but 'engagement' on a dying app
I can't remember for the life of me, but wasn't it before some other important deadline or something when we saw those videos of Lonzo dunking and running on a treadmill?
I just love that whenever the media scrutinesring starts to pick up our front office trots Lonzo out to distract everyone.
I found his dunk videos posted on January 13 2023, so no later than that.
So leading up to last year's trade deadline. Sounds about right.
Yeah though I'm pretty sure everyone saw those videos and cringed because he could barely move lol.
Seriously 😂😂😂
Well, we are getting to that point of the season when, after the superbowl, social media will start to switch attention onto the NBA. Will anyone notice that the Bulls actually exist? Probably not, at least if they don't make a trade.
Karnisovas: "We will not settle for mediocrity here."
Narrator: "They settled."
Just setting aside what the Bulls should and could do I have the idea that OKC would be a good trading partner. The way they play, they could use all of DeMar Drummond and Caruso, and they have guys (Giddey Dieng, picks) they might actually give
Would they take Vuc?
They wouldn't. Which is why I didn't mention him.
But I think the cases for Drummond and Caruso are obvious.
DeMar might be less obvious since folks are so polarized on him, but it's obvious to me that he's a high level player on an expiring contract, and his experience and shot creation seem like things OKC is relatively lacking in outside of SGA. He'd be super helpful in the playoffs for them.
Generally, I'd look at this like combining three individually sensible trades:
1. Caruso for Giddey (+low level first?)
2. Demar for Bertas (NG next year), Micic, Dieng, (+low level first?)
3. Drummond for Poku + multiple decent seconds.
(Bulls include Craig, Taylor to make roster work. Craig actually might help them.
OKC
G- SGA, Mann,
G- Caruso, Dort, Wallace, Joe
F- DeMar, /Caruso/Dort
F- Jalen Williams, Kenrich Williams, Craig
C- Chet, Drummond, Jaylin Williams
Long story short, they add two guys who will be in their already stacked playoff rotation.
Bulls
G- Coby, Micic, Carter........... (Lonzo's Contract)
G- Ayo /Giddey/ ............... (Zach's Contract)
F- Giddey, /Pat/, Terry, Phillips
F- Pat, Dieng, Poku, Bertans
C- Vuc
Pretty bleak, but Giddey and Dieng have realistic chances of becoming high level players. Our finances are under control (outside of the massive dead money hits).
I'd be trying like hell to move Vuc too, but don't know if it can be done. The Bulls are madly in love with him though, so they won't.
it's half the money, but Bulls should have at least similar if not more urgency to move off of Vuc as they (maybe?) were with Zach.
As terrible as Vuc has been, this is his peak value going forward. He'll only age further and become not even plausibly playable on a good team. For this deadline you could maybe dupe the Warriors, Lakers, or Mavs (or Thunder, though they're harder to dupe because they're cheap) into thinking Vuc could be in their playoff rotation.
Also, the Thunder and Warriors aren't stupid.
There's no spot for Vuc on the Mavs.
I could see something like Vuc for Rui and Jaxson Hayes. I could actually say it makes sense, because one of the few things Vuc does pretty well is body up Jokic, and with AD, he won't completely crater their defense. It's probably the best possible fit out there for him. And the money is about equal.
The urgency on Zach was on his part, mostly. He asked out. Vuc isn't going to ask out I don't think.
Anyway, I think Vuc sucks ass, but in the case where we're trading away AC and DeMar, while I'd certainly like to trade Vuc, he's an ideal tank commander. He'll double-double the Bulls to an unending strong of losses.
G- Coby, Micic, Carter........... (Lonzo's Contract)
G- Ayo /Giddey/ ............... (Zach's Contract)
F- Giddey, /Pat/Rui, Terry, Phillips
F- Pat, Rui, Dieng
C- Hayes, Poku, Bertans
I don't mind that one bit to finish out the string this year. They'd shift Poku and Bertans down a position and have lots of funky lineups to try out.
I think the Mavs could use Vuc. They're vulnerable in the middle, last night Lively was out and they started Kleber at center. That's good practice (they won, handily) but Vuc could soak up innings in the regular season, and be a spot opponent for Jokic (or...Gobert? very few centers in the West playoffs actually). I assumed they'd be a slow team that Vuc could fit in with, but actually they're 8th in pace
anyway it's just finding a team that would play Vuc at all, the real prize would be getting Caruso. For what they'd send back...they're rumored to have buyers remorse on Grant Williams and offered him for Portis, which is strange to me. Richaun Holmes is negative salary, though not as negative as Vuc.
Kidd has a horrible history with big men. That Kleber/Powell tandem is basically his preference and I'm not sure why. Last year they had JaVale and Wood and he exiled both of them despite the fact that, well, he was playing Kleber and Powell. Vucevic would probably have reason to fear the same treatment.
Then again I often fantasize about Vucevic only playing garbage minutes myself...
I've also though OKC would be a good trade partner if AKME decided they were bored and wanted to shake things up. Hadn't really thought of DeRozan being part of that, but I like your logic. Not sure we could trade all three of those guys to OKC, but I'd be happy with any two of them.
Bonus to all of this: MikeDC finally gets to fulfil his long lasting love for Poku :-)