Fair. And I know you're not disagreeing but this would be another reason for AK to get more in a trade. They're saying their development staff can do what the Thunder couldn't, that should have value. Giddey stagnated and basically requested a trade and Presti still exerted leverage, incredible
Can you share? I know it's easy to go and find them myself, but I've decided to adopt the same level of effort regarding the Bulls that they employ themselves.
It was basically that Presti told Giddey he'd be coming off the bench next season, so Giddey asked for a trade. So yeah, Thunder should have had absolutely no leverage.
So Presti has already sat down with his players to talk about next season? 1. Do we think AK has ever sat down with his players to discuss a season? 2. If he actually does, do we think he's done it in preparation for next season already?
About the same ts%, but in Rondo's era, the league average was 54.1%, last year it was 58%! So Rondo was 2-3% below average, Giddey is 6% below. Rondo also had a big jump his 3rd but in fairness (and I hate being fair to the AK Bulls), Rondo was a year older so potentially that jump could come for Giddey this year.
More depressingly, Rondo got more assists, more FTAs, and higher ast%, while taking 5 fewer shots per 100 possessions. So he was doing better at avoiding what he was bad at (shooting), while impacting the game in the ways he was good. Also free throws drawn on drives is like the #1 indicator for future offensive success. Giddey's inability to force defenders to foul him is a huge red flag
It would be funny if they thought they had to trade Caruso for anything just to make room for Carter, given that since 2021, their best stretches of basketball have involved pairing Caruso with another defensive menace and going all in on that side of the court.
Bulls lost their "wait and see" privileges a long time ago. They keep showing the world who they are and some fans are still like "maybe it'll be different this time!"
PG skills cannot be considered without taking into account poor shooting. For that reason I think this is a decided downgrade if they move Coby off the ball. Coby has to be picked up from 30 feet out because he'll stick the 3 and if it was wide open he'll hit it. Josh Giddey, as you can see in that (regular season) clip from Houston, isn't picked up until he gets to 18 feet from the hoop, which is CRAZY. The defense stacks like Chicago cops about to SWAT the wrong house. When Giddey brings up the ball, there is very little chance of:
1. Giddey taking a 3, or
2. Giddey driving to the basket
So it is not clear to me what "getting him more touches" or "getting the ball in his hands more than OKC could do" is supposed to accomplish. Seems like a ton of bad outcomes here compared to a basic replacement-level guard.
I think this (understandably) misses factoring in Billy Donovan's strengths/weaknesses as a coach.
Billy needs an excellent passer to facilitate his style of play. Giddey brings that, even if he doesn't have gravity as a player in other ways. Coby has become a very good passer (and hopefully will become elite), but he's not there yet.
When he's had elite passers on his teams (Russ, CP3, Lonzo), they have done very well. He couldn't stop Russ from Russing, but outside of that, his teams have overperformed when he's had someone with elite passing skills.
I'm disappointed in the trade, but I'm excited to see how Billy uses Giddey.
I don't think that is the case. I think Donovan has been after AKME to get him a PG with elite passing skills since it became clear that Lonzo wasn't coming back and the lack of action on that made him extract the extension as a guarantee he won't be blamed for the mediocre play without a true PG.
I suspect he'll be starting for us or the sixth man and Donovan will try to have him, Coby, or both on the floor all the time.
Lonzo played defense and hit 3s. CP3 mostly gambled for steals and hit 3s. I'm not excited because Giddey cannot do either of those things, or take the ball to the rim. That makes a bad player. He might improve someday. But there is a strong possibility that this improvement won't happen anytime soon, like the last PG we acquired from Sam Presti.
I think his skills will be magnified under Donovan and will make him and everyone around him look better, even though his weaknesses will keep him from being elite like CP3. Initially, I think his ceiling is a different version of Lonzo (less defense and more half court offense coordination), but we'll see.
I could be completely wrong, but I've been on the Giddey train for a while and am not hopping off just because the trade itself was a stinker.
I am confused how forcing his team to play 4 on 5 because you're so bad on offense and 5 on 4 because you're so bad on defense will make him look better, much less everyone else.
I think you are underestimating his offensive game. When he was a primary ball handler two years ago, he averaged over 16 pts/game on a better FG% than Lonzo or Coby has ever had (although, both have higher 3P%) with over 6 assists per game.
Obviously that is just a couple of stats and doesn't tell the whole story. But combined with his passing, it's enough to think he is a better offensively than a lot of people give him credit for.
And if FG% was the only measure of offensive productivity, you would be on to something with that comparison that exceeds the career highs of Lonzo or Coby. But we know that's not the case. The top 5 career leaders in NBA history in FG% are DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela and Montrezl Harrell.
The Bulls are either intentionally or unintentionally, launching a rebuild without picks, cap space, or high potential young prospects. It's a bold strategy, Cotton.
And then in three years Bulls Twitter and Reddit will be saying "This is why rebuilds don't work and we should never do it again." And that is exactly why I don't have Twitter or Reddit.
And as I read your comment, someone on reddit is trying to tell me that actually not getting a pick in this trade is fine because then you don't have to pay a player who might not be good...
I frequent the Bulls subreddit, despite not having a Reddit account, just for the fun of it. I regularly see you and a couple other people trying to talk sense over there and people just will not buy it. It's a losing effort, unfortunately.
With that being said, that sub has finally started to shift a little bit. I think the past trade deadline broke some people. When it was widely reported that the Bulls could have gotten three second round picks for Drummond and at least one first round pick and a young player or potentially two first round picks for Caruso and AK insisted on going for the play-in, I think some people finally started to realize how stupid this FO is.
Giddey was at the nadir of his trade value because of what happened in the playoffs, the off the court stuff, and only having 1 year left on his rookie deal. Caruso is coveted around the league and the exact player OKC needs to take the next step. So, OKC placed a low value on Giddey and a high value on AC. OKC also has a literal surplus of picks, meaning they have more than they can actually use (i.e., many of those picks have a low value to OKC).
This imbalance in value was all very obvious yet the Bulls could not extract even one pick from OKC. It's so obvious that I wonder if they even asked for a pick. I'm thinking they didn't because it would cost OKC next to nothing to throw in a second rounder or a future protected first. In other words, would OKC not do the deal for Caruso if the Bulls insisted on the 2028 second rounder the Thunder got from the Bucks (a pick that's borderline worthless to OKC but valuable to the Bulls since the Bulls can't trade their 2028 second rounder)?
Even if you like Giddey, this transaction shows that AKME don't know what they're doing.
This a great summary. It's like the Bulls don't even try to get the most they can.
Talking about them in comparison to other teams that are constantly working to maximize every opportunity doesn't even make sense.
I was listening to Zach Lowe interview Joe Mazzulla last night. That guy is a weirdo. But one thing that came through pretty clearly is that he's a very hard-working weirdo and that he and the rest of the Celtics spend every moment of every day trying to scrape out every little bit of advantage they can.
That's why they and teams like them are champs and the Bulls are chumps.
I will actually defend Billy Donovan. I don't think he's as good as Mazzulla, but I do think he's in the top half of NBA coaches. I think our roster is so bad he's getting the most out of it and it's just 10th in the East is the best it can do. I'm don't believe there's a effort gap between us and the Celtics, I think there's a smarts gap. They traded Marcus Smart (a Caruso style player) and ended up with Porzingus AND Jrue. We traded Caruso for someone about to be benched
Yeah, I agree that Donovan is a good coach. I've probably even got a rep for defending him too much, to the extent that random weirdos on the internet get reps for things.
The effort gap is huge and very real however. I wasn't just talking about Donovan, but the whole of the organization. The tone and actions from top to bottom.
Mazzulla, he's Thibs like. I took away from the interview - among other things- that the man literally bargained to be allowed to sleep in the gym rather than get an extended stay hotel when he was first hired.
Do I think Billy Donovan would do that? No I do not. He's 59 (Mazzulla is 35), and he's not a dummy. He's coaching hard, but he knows what the options are here.
He's content to "work hard" in the context of what working hard means to the Bulls. I think the players work hard too.
But... it's a whole different universe from what a team like the Celtics do. And that's by design from Jerry Reinsdorf on down.
I get what you're saying but seeing what Ayo, Coby, Demar, and Caruso have done the past 3 years, all of them have clearly worked their asses off to be as good as possible. Even Pat Will was doing the DeRozen summer work outs.
As for gym vs sleep or w/e. Do you think Thibs is doing that at 66 years old? Do you think the Knicks don't work hard? That's a non-sequitor to me with working hard in a basketball context.
I think the main differences between the Bulls and Celtics is that Brad Stevens is very smart and AK is very stupid and their owners spend money and the Reinsdorfs don't. Maybe AKME are also lazy and that's the problem, I couldn't say for sure but from coaching down, I see hard work.
As one big example, last year the Bulls hired a shooting coach and we had several players have their best shooting years ever. That shows dedication and work it also shows how stupid/cheap management is by only hiring a shooting coach in 2023 decades late.
To me, Mazzulla is the kind of weirdo that will weird his way out of things at some point. He is perfect for this version of this team. They got it done, everyone bought in. He's a great motivator and a great coach. He got this job by grinding, they trusted him, and he ran with it. He's young, he does stuff like block shots from the sidelines after whistles. He had to be told to stop doing it. He's crazy.
I get guys wearing their religion on their sleeves - it's not my thing, but I get it. Joe metaphorically sharpie's J-E-S-U-S on his digits and punches fools in the face. At some point, this will probably go poorly
"It's so obvious that I wonder if they even asked for a pick."
This is related to the Vucevic deal, where it seems like Orlando kept asking for one more thing and Karnisovas just kept nodding. We used to joke that he wanted the player so bad that he completely ignored the process of negotiation. Seems like that is true.
AK is the kid who goes to lunch and trades his ziploc bag filled with Oreos for a small can of plain Pringles simply because he was in the mood for chips.
Sure, Pringles are a passable snack. If you’re looking for a chip, they fill the minimum requirements. But you don’t trade a bag of Oreos for them! That’s terrible understanding of the value of your Oreos! You can trade them for a lot better than just plain Pringles!
So yeah, AK got what he wanted: a young guard who can pass. But he showed a terrible understanding of the value of that player compared to the player he gave up.
I like Dean Wade a lot. Ultimate good things happen when he's on the court player. But he's injured a lot too. I think you need another forward about as good to pair with him because of that
AK literally looks at the player he's about to lose and then looks at the options around the league and decides who he thinks will best replace the player he's losing.
There's zero vision to what he does. It's just "If I'm losing a forward with good defense and a solid three point shot but nothing else, I must find a new forward with good defense and a solid three but nothing else."
So what are the chances AK made this trade so quickly and also appears to be trying to get a Zach trade done quickly so that once the draft is over he can head on vacation until training camp begins?
Giddey is young and still can grow to be a better player. I like the kid. His contract extension will definitely be less than Caruso would have cost. All that being said, it's stupid that they did this deal without getting one of OKC's 15 1st rounders. Exaggerated but they have a ton of them. It just shows the incompetence of this teams FO. Clowns are running the show...
Listened to this just for the laugh. But Vernon had a very salient point in how AK is a moron bc he was acting desperate, when it was actually OKC who was. They are in the high stakes of the west playoffs and needed to upgrade from Giddey, and specifically to Caruso. Why would the Bulls think they need to zero in on a particular player? They're so far away from that mattering!
Toronto waited way too long to trade Siakam and Anunoby, but this is what they got last NYE for Anunoby, who had only 4 months left on his contract:
Raptors Trade: OG Anunoby, Precious Achiuwa + Malachi Flynn
NY Knicks Trade: RJ Barrett, Immanuel Quickley, 2024 2nd round pick (DET, so it's the 1st pick in the second round or #31 overall)
I'm not sold on either of those guys (though Barrett, who I thought less of, upped his numbers dramatically in Toronto), but that's kinda what I thought we could expect: one established player you could pass on for a single pick later, one nice young guy off someone else's bench and a decent pick.
I agree with the narrative that Bulls should have gotten a pick or multiple picks with this trade. Even 2nds are real assets. And I agree that leadership deserves all criticism. For another perspective though would you have traded AC for #1 pick? Because Giddey would easily be the first pick in this draft. In all the articles I read about how many picks the Bulls were offered for AC it never mentions which draft they were in. I think that matters because this draft is horrible.
It is wild that he's only 21. At 21 we are talking about reclamation project, which is also wild. If I believed in the Bulls in any area, he would theoretically be a good buy low candidate. Change of scenery! At the very least, he's a 'fun' player offensively in the way the Lonzo was fun offensively. At his best he connects stuff
But it's the Bulls and they didn't buy low. Well they did buy low but they paid high. They gave up their best bargaining chip, received zero picks and now have to do something they suck at, negotiate with an RFA. If they had unloaded Vuc on this one, I would be all in
OKC, a team armed with above average everything when it comes to coaching, front office, etc couldn't find a place for Giddey on the floor. Surely the Bulls can figure it out
I hate this organization so much. In this thread or another there was some Celtics talk, about the types of things that they did to put this team together. So many things that the Bulls would never ever do. Like Al Horford! They brought back a guy who was overpaid but useful. They decided that eating the cost of that contract was worth it. It was!
Also, activity! Here's a team that has been right on the cusp for years and years and years...yet still activity! Moving smart, acquiring holiday, betting on Porzingis. Even before that, adding Brogdon. Stuff that good teams continually tinker with to get better. This crew does pretty much none of that. AK has such a static view of team building. This is what I like at each spot, replace as needed. I hate it
The Celtics just randomly brought in Xavier Tillman and Jaden Springer at the deadline — a big who would probably be our starting PF and a 21 year old defensive-oriented player. They actually needed one of them during the title drive, but they were still making small moves toward the future even with the best record in the league.
The Bulls, No Future, gave a guaranteed contract to a guy they already had signed to a 2way and hadn't played all year.
Future Big Three* of Giddey, 37 y.o. Giannis, and Zach Lavine, who the Bulls famously tried to move for years without luck until it was reported he had moved into the basement of the U.C. before Grandpa Jerry on his deathbed personally resigned Zach to a bargain contract of $41M per year in 2027 because he liked his grit.
Right. And he’s had 3 years of development in a very good development organization. Age matters but so does context.
There was a study some years ago that basically concluded that as long as a player gets over 500 minutes in a season on an NBA team (basically end of the bench player who actually plays), it’s worth the same in development as being a superstar lead player getting 1000 minutes in college. (Don’t ask me how they figured it out, I forgot. So take it with however much salt you want. ) But it makes sense to me: vastly better coaches, better technology, better nutrition. 100% focus on basketball if you want.
It’s going to take a whole of convincing to get me to believe that Giddey’s 6000 minutes with OKC isn’t vastly superior in development than say, Devin Carter’s 3000 minutes at South Carolina and Providence. Just… everything is sooooo different.
So yes, he’s younger, but does he have the same development left in him just because he’s younger? And as I explicitly said, knowing you have 1 year to decide to pay $20 million or more instead of 4 years.
I get your point, but I don't think getting better quality coaching and development is a bad thing. Giddey's floor is clearly higher than virtually all of the guys who will be drafted. If he can develop his 3 ball the way Caruso did, he can be very good. If he can't, he's still a rotation player in the league.
Yeah, but part of the value of a draft pick is the controlled cost of their contract. So a direct comparison of talent does not capture the whole picture, especially since an extremely high ceiling seems to be off the table.
Your hate for “tanking” - even when it has actually worked - and your ability to paint anyone who has done it into terrible is getting ridiculous.
Boston tanked, and it led directly to drafting Marcus Smart who was a leader for them, and led to a trade for Porzingis. And the trades of Garnett and Pierce - which led to the tank - landed them Brown and Tatum.
OKC tanked and have the brightest future in the league outside of Boston.
Dallas tanked last year (intentionally lost games) to keep a draft pick that was instrumental (if only partly) to their run this season.
Orlando and Houston and I don’t know who else have far more interesting futures than the Bulls.
There are plenty of missteps, just like the Bulls prove there are missteps in trying to stay relevant.
At this point you’re just being lame and old. Sure, don’t want to root for that type of them. Whatever. We all root in our own ways. But to be so vehement and anti-factual is just jumping the shark.
I don't mind so much a strategic tank like Dallas did in the final few games. Or gaining picks in trades of veterans. But going into a season being intentionally bad where your best asset is your own terribleness, that's indeed something I will paint as gross and unlikeable even if it can be effective. And I certainly don't like what I'd imagine the AK version of it would be. Not to mention this isn't a tumbleweed town
I don’t get footnote 4. He’s a restricted free agent. He’ll be on the market. How are the Bulls going to keep him at below-market value? I need to see this explained more because I’ve seen plenty of teams match RFA contracts that are considered “high,” and I’ve seen the Bulls not match RFA contracts they didn’t like.
Jesus that's bleak. That gives them 2 out of 5 starters who aren't trash defenders. And they'd be incapable of making it up on the other end because, again, only 2 out of 5 of these guys can take and make 3s at a league average level.
If that's next year's roster I don't think they break 25 wins.
Yeah, he stepped up and it's reflected in the "hustle" stats. Coby was 9th in the league recovering loose balls (Caruso was 7th), just out of the top 20 in charges drawn, and the 3rd ranked non-center in contested shots (which is stat dominated by big men). If the instincts, athleticism and fundamentals aren't there, the effort is. A whole team playing on that level would be phenomenal.
But we gotta assume that they are going to take a very big step back defensively without Caruso leading the defense, making the correct reads and taking the toughest assignment.
I think they will sign and trade DeRozan. No way for him to feasibly coexist in a half court offense with Giddey, and why would he want to. The plan will be to stay in the bottom 10 (not far to go!) and keep 2025 pick. Lavine starting the season on the team and playing kinda well wouldn't be the worst for trade value, but seems like that ship has sailed.
I don't think there will be a market out there, but Demar or not this is a bottom of the barrel roster. Calling them bottom 10 is way too charitable at this point. They just lost their 3rd best player (maybe 2nd best considering Lavine doesn't help you win basketball games) for a 21 year old project. This team is going to be absolute ass next season.
I don't think "project" is the right label for Giddey. He is flawed, for sure. But he is very playable now and will produce stats. He needs to show he can credibly defend when it matters and he needs to develop his three-point shot. But this isn't a guy you stick on the bench and hope he becomes something in 3+ years.
He's a project in the sense that it will be a years long project to turn him into the level of NBA player they traded him for. Not being able to defend and not being able to shoot 3s are massive, massive shortcomings.
The Bulls are a bottom ten team. If you looked at their power rankings for the last two months of the season, they were in the 20 to 22 range. They were really only better than the super tanking teams.
Mostly agree with all of this, though think this is kind of unfair:
"though they did finally hire a shooting coach the AKME Bulls have not shown any player development successes to the level of the Thunder."
Maybe not on the level of the Thunder, but Coby White's 23/24 is definitely a notable player development success, Ayo too.
Starting to think of Giddey as Rondo without the defense. Pretty underwhelming, and a terrible fit for this team.
Fair. And I know you're not disagreeing but this would be another reason for AK to get more in a trade. They're saying their development staff can do what the Thunder couldn't, that should have value. Giddey stagnated and basically requested a trade and Presti still exerted leverage, incredible
oh man just saw Presti's comments. yeah. that makes it look a whole lot worse.
Can you share? I know it's easy to go and find them myself, but I've decided to adopt the same level of effort regarding the Bulls that they employ themselves.
Which is to say, very little.
It was basically that Presti told Giddey he'd be coming off the bench next season, so Giddey asked for a trade. So yeah, Thunder should have had absolutely no leverage.
I linked it in the post
https://www.si.com/nba/thunder/news/okc-thunder-sam-presti-reveals-josh-giddey-requested-trade
So Presti has already sat down with his players to talk about next season? 1. Do we think AK has ever sat down with his players to discuss a season? 2. If he actually does, do we think he's done it in preparation for next season already?
only with Vuc, to tell him not worry there will be Vuc
I was thinking Ben Simmons without the defense but Rondo works too (Simmons was actually efficient on his low scoring)
Just looked up their comparison for first 3 years. https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=rondora01&p1yrfrom=2007&p1yrto=2009&player_id2=giddejo01&p2yrfrom=2022&p2yrto=2024
About the same ts%, but in Rondo's era, the league average was 54.1%, last year it was 58%! So Rondo was 2-3% below average, Giddey is 6% below. Rondo also had a big jump his 3rd but in fairness (and I hate being fair to the AK Bulls), Rondo was a year older so potentially that jump could come for Giddey this year.
More depressingly, Rondo got more assists, more FTAs, and higher ast%, while taking 5 fewer shots per 100 possessions. So he was doing better at avoiding what he was bad at (shooting), while impacting the game in the ways he was good. Also free throws drawn on drives is like the #1 indicator for future offensive success. Giddey's inability to force defenders to foul him is a huge red flag
Please, I'm eating breakfast
It would be funny if they thought they had to trade Caruso for anything just to make room for Carter, given that since 2021, their best stretches of basketball have involved pairing Caruso with another defensive menace and going all in on that side of the court.
Funny to me how Carter is older than Giddey....
Bulls lost their "wait and see" privileges a long time ago. They keep showing the world who they are and some fans are still like "maybe it'll be different this time!"
PG skills cannot be considered without taking into account poor shooting. For that reason I think this is a decided downgrade if they move Coby off the ball. Coby has to be picked up from 30 feet out because he'll stick the 3 and if it was wide open he'll hit it. Josh Giddey, as you can see in that (regular season) clip from Houston, isn't picked up until he gets to 18 feet from the hoop, which is CRAZY. The defense stacks like Chicago cops about to SWAT the wrong house. When Giddey brings up the ball, there is very little chance of:
1. Giddey taking a 3, or
2. Giddey driving to the basket
So it is not clear to me what "getting him more touches" or "getting the ball in his hands more than OKC could do" is supposed to accomplish. Seems like a ton of bad outcomes here compared to a basic replacement-level guard.
I think this (understandably) misses factoring in Billy Donovan's strengths/weaknesses as a coach.
Billy needs an excellent passer to facilitate his style of play. Giddey brings that, even if he doesn't have gravity as a player in other ways. Coby has become a very good passer (and hopefully will become elite), but he's not there yet.
When he's had elite passers on his teams (Russ, CP3, Lonzo), they have done very well. He couldn't stop Russ from Russing, but outside of that, his teams have overperformed when he's had someone with elite passing skills.
I'm disappointed in the trade, but I'm excited to see how Billy uses Giddey.
I have a feeling Donovan will just not play the dude.
I don't think that is the case. I think Donovan has been after AKME to get him a PG with elite passing skills since it became clear that Lonzo wasn't coming back and the lack of action on that made him extract the extension as a guarantee he won't be blamed for the mediocre play without a true PG.
I suspect he'll be starting for us or the sixth man and Donovan will try to have him, Coby, or both on the floor all the time.
Lonzo played defense and hit 3s. CP3 mostly gambled for steals and hit 3s. I'm not excited because Giddey cannot do either of those things, or take the ball to the rim. That makes a bad player. He might improve someday. But there is a strong possibility that this improvement won't happen anytime soon, like the last PG we acquired from Sam Presti.
I think his skills will be magnified under Donovan and will make him and everyone around him look better, even though his weaknesses will keep him from being elite like CP3. Initially, I think his ceiling is a different version of Lonzo (less defense and more half court offense coordination), but we'll see.
I could be completely wrong, but I've been on the Giddey train for a while and am not hopping off just because the trade itself was a stinker.
I am confused how forcing his team to play 4 on 5 because you're so bad on offense and 5 on 4 because you're so bad on defense will make him look better, much less everyone else.
I think you are underestimating his offensive game. When he was a primary ball handler two years ago, he averaged over 16 pts/game on a better FG% than Lonzo or Coby has ever had (although, both have higher 3P%) with over 6 assists per game.
Obviously that is just a couple of stats and doesn't tell the whole story. But combined with his passing, it's enough to think he is a better offensively than a lot of people give him credit for.
And if FG% was the only measure of offensive productivity, you would be on to something with that comparison that exceeds the career highs of Lonzo or Coby. But we know that's not the case. The top 5 career leaders in NBA history in FG% are DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela and Montrezl Harrell.
The Bulls are either intentionally or unintentionally, launching a rebuild without picks, cap space, or high potential young prospects. It's a bold strategy, Cotton.
And then in three years Bulls Twitter and Reddit will be saying "This is why rebuilds don't work and we should never do it again." And that is exactly why I don't have Twitter or Reddit.
And as I read your comment, someone on reddit is trying to tell me that actually not getting a pick in this trade is fine because then you don't have to pay a player who might not be good...
I frequent the Bulls subreddit, despite not having a Reddit account, just for the fun of it. I regularly see you and a couple other people trying to talk sense over there and people just will not buy it. It's a losing effort, unfortunately.
With that being said, that sub has finally started to shift a little bit. I think the past trade deadline broke some people. When it was widely reported that the Bulls could have gotten three second round picks for Drummond and at least one first round pick and a young player or potentially two first round picks for Caruso and AK insisted on going for the play-in, I think some people finally started to realize how stupid this FO is.
Welp. Seems pretty likely they'll keep their pick next year. Can't wait to see what long-armed non-shooter they draft with it.
Giddey was at the nadir of his trade value because of what happened in the playoffs, the off the court stuff, and only having 1 year left on his rookie deal. Caruso is coveted around the league and the exact player OKC needs to take the next step. So, OKC placed a low value on Giddey and a high value on AC. OKC also has a literal surplus of picks, meaning they have more than they can actually use (i.e., many of those picks have a low value to OKC).
This imbalance in value was all very obvious yet the Bulls could not extract even one pick from OKC. It's so obvious that I wonder if they even asked for a pick. I'm thinking they didn't because it would cost OKC next to nothing to throw in a second rounder or a future protected first. In other words, would OKC not do the deal for Caruso if the Bulls insisted on the 2028 second rounder the Thunder got from the Bucks (a pick that's borderline worthless to OKC but valuable to the Bulls since the Bulls can't trade their 2028 second rounder)?
Even if you like Giddey, this transaction shows that AKME don't know what they're doing.
This a great summary. It's like the Bulls don't even try to get the most they can.
Talking about them in comparison to other teams that are constantly working to maximize every opportunity doesn't even make sense.
I was listening to Zach Lowe interview Joe Mazzulla last night. That guy is a weirdo. But one thing that came through pretty clearly is that he's a very hard-working weirdo and that he and the rest of the Celtics spend every moment of every day trying to scrape out every little bit of advantage they can.
That's why they and teams like them are champs and the Bulls are chumps.
Well said. I’d note that Phil Jackson also was (and is) a weirdo.
I will actually defend Billy Donovan. I don't think he's as good as Mazzulla, but I do think he's in the top half of NBA coaches. I think our roster is so bad he's getting the most out of it and it's just 10th in the East is the best it can do. I'm don't believe there's a effort gap between us and the Celtics, I think there's a smarts gap. They traded Marcus Smart (a Caruso style player) and ended up with Porzingus AND Jrue. We traded Caruso for someone about to be benched
Yeah, I agree that Donovan is a good coach. I've probably even got a rep for defending him too much, to the extent that random weirdos on the internet get reps for things.
The effort gap is huge and very real however. I wasn't just talking about Donovan, but the whole of the organization. The tone and actions from top to bottom.
Mazzulla, he's Thibs like. I took away from the interview - among other things- that the man literally bargained to be allowed to sleep in the gym rather than get an extended stay hotel when he was first hired.
Do I think Billy Donovan would do that? No I do not. He's 59 (Mazzulla is 35), and he's not a dummy. He's coaching hard, but he knows what the options are here.
He's content to "work hard" in the context of what working hard means to the Bulls. I think the players work hard too.
But... it's a whole different universe from what a team like the Celtics do. And that's by design from Jerry Reinsdorf on down.
I get what you're saying but seeing what Ayo, Coby, Demar, and Caruso have done the past 3 years, all of them have clearly worked their asses off to be as good as possible. Even Pat Will was doing the DeRozen summer work outs.
As for gym vs sleep or w/e. Do you think Thibs is doing that at 66 years old? Do you think the Knicks don't work hard? That's a non-sequitor to me with working hard in a basketball context.
I think the main differences between the Bulls and Celtics is that Brad Stevens is very smart and AK is very stupid and their owners spend money and the Reinsdorfs don't. Maybe AKME are also lazy and that's the problem, I couldn't say for sure but from coaching down, I see hard work.
As one big example, last year the Bulls hired a shooting coach and we had several players have their best shooting years ever. That shows dedication and work it also shows how stupid/cheap management is by only hiring a shooting coach in 2023 decades late.
>to the extent that random weirdos on the internet get reps for things.
Hey now. Don't be too hard on your rep. No one thinks you are "random". :-P
To me, Mazzulla is the kind of weirdo that will weird his way out of things at some point. He is perfect for this version of this team. They got it done, everyone bought in. He's a great motivator and a great coach. He got this job by grinding, they trusted him, and he ran with it. He's young, he does stuff like block shots from the sidelines after whistles. He had to be told to stop doing it. He's crazy.
I get guys wearing their religion on their sleeves - it's not my thing, but I get it. Joe metaphorically sharpie's J-E-S-U-S on his digits and punches fools in the face. At some point, this will probably go poorly
The problem with this is that from about the 5th best NBA coach to the 25th best, there isn’t a whole lot of difference.
To me, Billy Donovan is a terrible coach if only because he left a team with SGA and went to the Bulls and thought that was better.
"It's so obvious that I wonder if they even asked for a pick."
This is related to the Vucevic deal, where it seems like Orlando kept asking for one more thing and Karnisovas just kept nodding. We used to joke that he wanted the player so bad that he completely ignored the process of negotiation. Seems like that is true.
AK is the kid who goes to lunch and trades his ziploc bag filled with Oreos for a small can of plain Pringles simply because he was in the mood for chips.
Sure, Pringles are a passable snack. If you’re looking for a chip, they fill the minimum requirements. But you don’t trade a bag of Oreos for them! That’s terrible understanding of the value of your Oreos! You can trade them for a lot better than just plain Pringles!
So yeah, AK got what he wanted: a young guard who can pass. But he showed a terrible understanding of the value of that player compared to the player he gave up.
In more news for "what is the plan AK?". They're now interested in KCP if they can't resign Pat Will. Can't call that a youth movement https://x.com/BN_Bulls/status/1804184590757626019
D.Wade is still on the street. Maybe the Bulls can go one mo gain with getting younger.
I like Dean Wade a lot. Ultimate good things happen when he's on the court player. But he's injured a lot too. I think you need another forward about as good to pair with him because of that
I was talking about Dwyane Wade but Dean works.
AK literally looks at the player he's about to lose and then looks at the options around the league and decides who he thinks will best replace the player he's losing.
There's zero vision to what he does. It's just "If I'm losing a forward with good defense and a solid three point shot but nothing else, I must find a new forward with good defense and a solid three but nothing else."
such a weird rumor I'm looking for another angle: KCP is repped by Rich Paul
that Jake Fischer piece is a lot of slop, and dismaying to read all the crappy centers for sale and Vuc not among them
So what are the chances AK made this trade so quickly and also appears to be trying to get a Zach trade done quickly so that once the draft is over he can head on vacation until training camp begins?
Karnisovas, when reached for comment, did weird things with his lips.
So guys, I’m sitting here at Sydney airport and Josh is just meters away from me. So behave :-)
Giddey is young and still can grow to be a better player. I like the kid. His contract extension will definitely be less than Caruso would have cost. All that being said, it's stupid that they did this deal without getting one of OKC's 15 1st rounders. Exaggerated but they have a ton of them. It just shows the incompetence of this teams FO. Clowns are running the show...
On today's Mismatch, Kevin O'Connor said "the Bulls are ass."
Yeah that was something. Kind of refreshing to hear the national guys acknowledge how bad it's gotten with AK
Listened to this just for the laugh. But Vernon had a very salient point in how AK is a moron bc he was acting desperate, when it was actually OKC who was. They are in the high stakes of the west playoffs and needed to upgrade from Giddey, and specifically to Caruso. Why would the Bulls think they need to zero in on a particular player? They're so far away from that mattering!
Toronto waited way too long to trade Siakam and Anunoby, but this is what they got last NYE for Anunoby, who had only 4 months left on his contract:
Raptors Trade: OG Anunoby, Precious Achiuwa + Malachi Flynn
NY Knicks Trade: RJ Barrett, Immanuel Quickley, 2024 2nd round pick (DET, so it's the 1st pick in the second round or #31 overall)
I'm not sold on either of those guys (though Barrett, who I thought less of, upped his numbers dramatically in Toronto), but that's kinda what I thought we could expect: one established player you could pass on for a single pick later, one nice young guy off someone else's bench and a decent pick.
Jesus. Even Kevin freakin' O'Connor is dunking on us. We are ass!
I agree with the narrative that Bulls should have gotten a pick or multiple picks with this trade. Even 2nds are real assets. And I agree that leadership deserves all criticism. For another perspective though would you have traded AC for #1 pick? Because Giddey would easily be the first pick in this draft. In all the articles I read about how many picks the Bulls were offered for AC it never mentions which draft they were in. I think that matters because this draft is horrible.
I don’t think giddey, with one year left on his rookie deal, gets drafted #1 in this draft.
As a 21 year old, Giddey is younger than a number of the projected picks in this draft.
It is wild that he's only 21. At 21 we are talking about reclamation project, which is also wild. If I believed in the Bulls in any area, he would theoretically be a good buy low candidate. Change of scenery! At the very least, he's a 'fun' player offensively in the way the Lonzo was fun offensively. At his best he connects stuff
But it's the Bulls and they didn't buy low. Well they did buy low but they paid high. They gave up their best bargaining chip, received zero picks and now have to do something they suck at, negotiate with an RFA. If they had unloaded Vuc on this one, I would be all in
OKC, a team armed with above average everything when it comes to coaching, front office, etc couldn't find a place for Giddey on the floor. Surely the Bulls can figure it out
I hate this organization so much. In this thread or another there was some Celtics talk, about the types of things that they did to put this team together. So many things that the Bulls would never ever do. Like Al Horford! They brought back a guy who was overpaid but useful. They decided that eating the cost of that contract was worth it. It was!
Also, activity! Here's a team that has been right on the cusp for years and years and years...yet still activity! Moving smart, acquiring holiday, betting on Porzingis. Even before that, adding Brogdon. Stuff that good teams continually tinker with to get better. This crew does pretty much none of that. AK has such a static view of team building. This is what I like at each spot, replace as needed. I hate it
edit - and I obviously forgot derrick white!
The Celtics just randomly brought in Xavier Tillman and Jaden Springer at the deadline — a big who would probably be our starting PF and a 21 year old defensive-oriented player. They actually needed one of them during the title drive, but they were still making small moves toward the future even with the best record in the league.
The Bulls, No Future, gave a guaranteed contract to a guy they already had signed to a 2way and hadn't played all year.
That guy shares an agent with Giddey. Full circle, gotta build those relationships. Also reps Giannis, so maybe we can sign him at age 37
Future Big Three* of Giddey, 37 y.o. Giannis, and Zach Lavine, who the Bulls famously tried to move for years without luck until it was reported he had moved into the basement of the U.C. before Grandpa Jerry on his deathbed personally resigned Zach to a bargain contract of $41M per year in 2027 because he liked his grit.
* TM
The Bulls, No Future definitely has legs as a t-shirt
Right. And he’s had 3 years of development in a very good development organization. Age matters but so does context.
There was a study some years ago that basically concluded that as long as a player gets over 500 minutes in a season on an NBA team (basically end of the bench player who actually plays), it’s worth the same in development as being a superstar lead player getting 1000 minutes in college. (Don’t ask me how they figured it out, I forgot. So take it with however much salt you want. ) But it makes sense to me: vastly better coaches, better technology, better nutrition. 100% focus on basketball if you want.
It’s going to take a whole of convincing to get me to believe that Giddey’s 6000 minutes with OKC isn’t vastly superior in development than say, Devin Carter’s 3000 minutes at South Carolina and Providence. Just… everything is sooooo different.
So yes, he’s younger, but does he have the same development left in him just because he’s younger? And as I explicitly said, knowing you have 1 year to decide to pay $20 million or more instead of 4 years.
OKC also has that legendary shooting coach from the Spurs
It's kind of wild that Woj's puffery tweet on Giddey's potential is admitting he will put up better counting stats on a worse team
I get your point, but I don't think getting better quality coaching and development is a bad thing. Giddey's floor is clearly higher than virtually all of the guys who will be drafted. If he can develop his 3 ball the way Caruso did, he can be very good. If he can't, he's still a rotation player in the league.
Yeah, but part of the value of a draft pick is the controlled cost of their contract. So a direct comparison of talent does not capture the whole picture, especially since an extremely high ceiling seems to be off the table.
Your hate for “tanking” - even when it has actually worked - and your ability to paint anyone who has done it into terrible is getting ridiculous.
Boston tanked, and it led directly to drafting Marcus Smart who was a leader for them, and led to a trade for Porzingis. And the trades of Garnett and Pierce - which led to the tank - landed them Brown and Tatum.
OKC tanked and have the brightest future in the league outside of Boston.
Dallas tanked last year (intentionally lost games) to keep a draft pick that was instrumental (if only partly) to their run this season.
Orlando and Houston and I don’t know who else have far more interesting futures than the Bulls.
There are plenty of missteps, just like the Bulls prove there are missteps in trying to stay relevant.
At this point you’re just being lame and old. Sure, don’t want to root for that type of them. Whatever. We all root in our own ways. But to be so vehement and anti-factual is just jumping the shark.
I don't mind so much a strategic tank like Dallas did in the final few games. Or gaining picks in trades of veterans. But going into a season being intentionally bad where your best asset is your own terribleness, that's indeed something I will paint as gross and unlikeable even if it can be effective. And I certainly don't like what I'd imagine the AK version of it would be. Not to mention this isn't a tumbleweed town
I agree. Look how awful those “Process” era Sixers were and Sam Presti still only hit on less than 50% those high draft picks.
I don’t get footnote 4. He’s a restricted free agent. He’ll be on the market. How are the Bulls going to keep him at below-market value? I need to see this explained more because I’ve seen plenty of teams match RFA contracts that are considered “high,” and I’ve seen the Bulls not match RFA contracts they didn’t like.
not to mention bid against themselves for players no one else wants
I don't get that impression from RFA at all, most guys don't get offer sheets. The Bulls got good contracts for Coby and Ayo just last summer
And that actually makes me rethink my concern about their ability to negotiate in RFA situations. These are the ones that they're good at!
Based on current speculation and rumors, my guess is the only other major move AK is looking to make this offseason is a LaVine trade.
I think he views Coby as a LaVine replacement, Giddey as a Lonzo replacement, and Devin Carter as a Caruso replacement.
He’ll give DeRozan an extension, keep Vuc, and try to keep Pat for as cheap as possible.
Our starting five will likely be Giddey, Coby, DeRozan, Pat, and Vuc. Devin Carter and whoever we get in a Zach trade will come off the bench.
It’s a roster that only makes sense if you don’t think too hard, which is why it’s a perfect roster for AK.
Jesus that's bleak. That gives them 2 out of 5 starters who aren't trash defenders. And they'd be incapable of making it up on the other end because, again, only 2 out of 5 of these guys can take and make 3s at a league average level.
If that's next year's roster I don't think they break 25 wins.
Who is the second defender? Coby? I guess he's not trash but he's also not good.
Yeah. At least he makes the effort.
Yeah, he stepped up and it's reflected in the "hustle" stats. Coby was 9th in the league recovering loose balls (Caruso was 7th), just out of the top 20 in charges drawn, and the 3rd ranked non-center in contested shots (which is stat dominated by big men). If the instincts, athleticism and fundamentals aren't there, the effort is. A whole team playing on that level would be phenomenal.
But we gotta assume that they are going to take a very big step back defensively without Caruso leading the defense, making the correct reads and taking the toughest assignment.
It's going to be a scary starting line-up (in a bad way).
Even if they don' trade Lavine, i really don't see any of them on the defense end.
I think they will sign and trade DeRozan. No way for him to feasibly coexist in a half court offense with Giddey, and why would he want to. The plan will be to stay in the bottom 10 (not far to go!) and keep 2025 pick. Lavine starting the season on the team and playing kinda well wouldn't be the worst for trade value, but seems like that ship has sailed.
I don't think there will be a market out there, but Demar or not this is a bottom of the barrel roster. Calling them bottom 10 is way too charitable at this point. They just lost their 3rd best player (maybe 2nd best considering Lavine doesn't help you win basketball games) for a 21 year old project. This team is going to be absolute ass next season.
I don't think "project" is the right label for Giddey. He is flawed, for sure. But he is very playable now and will produce stats. He needs to show he can credibly defend when it matters and he needs to develop his three-point shot. But this isn't a guy you stick on the bench and hope he becomes something in 3+ years.
He's a project in the sense that it will be a years long project to turn him into the level of NBA player they traded him for. Not being able to defend and not being able to shoot 3s are massive, massive shortcomings.
He also doesn't draw fouls or shoot well at the basket
I stipulated bottom 10 because that's where they need to be to keep their draft pick. I agree they may well be bottom 5.
The Bulls are a bottom ten team. If you looked at their power rankings for the last two months of the season, they were in the 20 to 22 range. They were really only better than the super tanking teams.