Every mention of the Bulls this offseason has been negative. Every Ringer podcast has lambasted the front office. It's really unbelievable how bad AKME is. One of the Tims on the Windhorst podcast said something like "the only thing the Bulls like more than doubling down on their mistakes is losing negotiations." Turning DDR and Caruso into Giddey, Duarte and 2 seconds is laughably bad but the Patrick Williams extension is insane. The fifth year is a player option (a/k/a a "Bulls Special") and per usual the Bulls bid against themselves to overpay. And this guy might not even play next season!
I know I'm in the minority but I actually don't mind the Williams extension. His QO was like $16 million so they're paying him $2 million extra a season. They also extended him before free agency started, so it's hard to say they bid against themselves when no one could bid yet.
I agree that it's unlikely he would have gotten more than $18 million on the open market, but my guess is there were at least a few teams interested at the QO or slightly over it. At worst, the Bulls slightly overpaid him. I also like that the contract is flat. It means they'll be paying him more next year and the following year, but they're already supposed to be bad those years so who cares if they spend a little more? They'll be spending less on Pat (percentage-wise) in years three, four and five.
I think the Pat extension is considerably different than the Vooch extension. They paid Vooch way more than he was worth before the open market had its chance to determine his value. They potentially paid Pat slightly more than he was worth before the market had a chance to determine his value. Due to Pat's age, there's at least a slight possibility someone would have gone high in hopes of unlocking his potential and then the Bulls would have had to decide if they wanted to match. That was never a question with Vooch because he was already old and bad when his last contract ended.
I hadn't seen that until I just looked it up. It came from Mayberry too which makes me think it's probably legit.
I do know at the time of the injury/surgery there was talk of the rehab possibly taking quite a while due to the type of injury it was, so I'm guessing that's exactly what's happening.
Hopefully it's just something that takes a while to heal and isn't something that has lingering side effects, but I guess only time will tell.
on the one hand, it doesn't appear Mayberry is finding out new information on this, just that AK said post draft that he couldn't confirm Williams will be ready for training camp
on the other hand, that the Bulls themselves are being dodgy about this means we can only assume it's worse than they're letting on
Yep. Plus, weird recoveries after surgeries and the Bulls go hand in hand. I have seen a few videos that show Pat walking around pretty normally, so at least he's not stuck in a boot or something. But yeah, who knows how long it'll take him to recover from that surgery. And more importantly, it basically means he won't have been able to improve on anything this summer...
On the hopium side... maybe they are planning to tank (or at least not put everything into trying to make the playoffs), so they are going to be extra conservative on injuries.
I don't mind the extension either, it's not some colossal high-risk miscalculation like Vuc and Zach
more another example of losing on the margins. The 5th year player option, especially at the flat $18M, is a gift to Williams. He'll only exercise use that if things go very poorly for him, and other teams can only offer a 4-year deal.
So why give him this gift? It's not like they locked in that good of a starting salary by doing so. I suppose Charlotte could've offered 4 years starting at $20+M and de-escalate? That'd be another example of the Bulls being penny wise and pound foolish with their 2024 tax line, and (shocker) indicate they were not expecting to lose DeRozan at the outset of free agency but were 'forced' to because of incapability to trade Zach
Ha very true. I guess I was thinking the opposite way though. Like what if Pat magically becomes super good and ends up declining his player option and forcing the Bulls to pay him way more that season simply because AK felt the need to make it a player option?
But yeah, I'm not sure any player option will bite him in the ass more than Lonzo's did!
This is the culmination of two years of gross franchise mismanagement. They didn't just miss the boat on flipping their assets, they dove into the water a week after the boat left and realized they couldn't swim. So now they've acknowledged, as water is filling their lungs, that it might be time to take a couple of swimming lessons and look into buying a life vest.
I think the best part of this vicious backlash has been the SCALDING of the common fan who initially praised them for getting "something" for DeRozan. Sometimes the Bulls are able to tuck this stuff into a folder where it's not easily spotted, or disguise it as a basketball-related transaction. Sometimes though they can't hide it and their cheapskate asshole owner's motives are lain bare. This is one of those times. You have:
1. The payoff the Spurs got for DeMar DeRozan in 2021.
2. The payoff the Spurs got for DeMar DeRozan in 2024, which Sacramento would have shrugged and sent us if Reinsdorf would have paid for it.
It's sad that so many Bulls fans were happy with the return because "DeMar could have walked for nothing." The fact that fans are so accepting of this organization's cheapness is what allows them to continue being so cheap.
Huh. I'm glad they are doing something. At least this will be something new, rather than a repeat of what we have already seen.
Without DDR to ride to the play-in and a bunch of new, flawed players, maybe Billy will be able to back off of playing the starters so many minutes and we'll get a chance to see the young guys develop on the court.
Don’t be surprised to see them offload Barnes for another future first. I’m not saying they will because they do want to win, but I could see them getting a 2029 pick swap or something from the Lakers or Heat or someone who is desperate for a 3-and-D wing
the tank-brained would say (and have, though I won't cite) that such a thing would've been bad and smart for the Bulls to avoid, because somehow Harrison Barnes would earn you too many victories
The metaphor I've grown to accept is one of finally getting, like, a triple bypass heart surgery you've been waiting for.
And then the doctor walks in wearing a clown suit and dripping barbecue sauce and replaces your heart with a baked potato a la Kenny in the South Park movie. And everyone is like "Hey man, what are you complaining about, you really need this surgery!"
Chicago Bulls Receive: G/F Brandon Ingram, F Andrew Wiggins
Golden State Warriors Receive: G/F Zach LaVine
New Orleans Pelicans Receive: C Nikola Vučević, G Gary Payton II, C Kevon Looney, 2025 first-round pick (lottery-protected via Portland Trail Blazers), 2028 and 2029 second-round picks (via Chicago Bulls)
Bulls Receive: G/F Brandon Ingram, F Andrew Wiggins
Bulls Lose: G/F Zach LaVine, C Nikola Vučević, 2025 first-round pick (lottery-protected via Portland Trail Blazers), 2028 and 2029 second-round picks
Brandon Ingram being traded to the Bulls is a win-win for Chicago, no matter how the 2024-25 season plays out.
If Ingram doesn't fit, holds out for a max deal next summer and/or suffers further injuries, the Bulls can treat him as an expiring $36 million salary. Along with Lonzo Ball, that's $57.4 million projected to come off the books in 2025, and the hefty contracts of Zach LaVine and Nikola Vučević would also be gone.
Chicago would only have $90.1 million in guaranteed contracts with a 2025-26 salary-cap projection of $154.6 million, before factoring in a new contract for Josh Giddey. The Bulls would then be free to take on contracts to add draft picks to help with the rebuild or speed up the process by adding one of the marquee names in free agency. As of now, LeBron James, Jimmy Butler, Lauri Markkanen, Jamal Murray, Julius Randle, Myles Turner, Aaron Gordon and others will all be available.
Of course, if Ingram has another All-Star season in 2024-25, the Bulls might have a better chance keeping him as the only team that can offer him a five-year deal.
The 26-year-old averaged 20.8 points, 5.1 rebounds, 5.7 assists and shot 49.2 percent overall last season in New Orleans and could be even better if not having to share the ball with two other 20-point-per-game scorers in Zion Williamson and CJ McCollum.
The Bulls have to take on Andrew Wiggins in this deal, but he's owed $53.3 million less over the next three years than LaVine ($84.7 million compared to $138 million).
After the dust settles, Chicago has a core of Coby White, Ingram, Patrick Williams, Giddey, Matas Buzelis, Jalen Smith and Ayo Dosunmu, all players age 26 or younger.
This trade gets rid of the Bulls' worst contracts (LaVine and Vučević) while giving them a year to determine how Ingram fits with the team.
I feel like someone read my Zach+Vuc for CJ+Ingram idea and make it convoluted and complicated.
First, the Warriors have no interest in Zach.
Second how does this make sense for the Pelicans? They literally just traded for a win now guy (who happens to be good friends with Zach). Future picks (not even firsts likely to convey) don’t do anything for them and neither do washed up GP2 and Looney.
I’ll go back to my suggestion of dealing straight with the Pels. Zach and Vuc for Ingram and CJ
It ain’t great but it actually solves some problems for both teams. The Pelicans don’t want to pay Ingram for 4-5 more years, but maybe they’d take Zach for 3 as a compromise. He’s a better shooter and fit than Ingram assuming he’s healthy.CJ is kind of washed and doesn’t easily fit with Murray.
I have no idea what to do either of those guys. I don’t think there’s much market for either of them, but the worst case scenario is they’re a step in the direction of cleaning up the Bulls books.
New topic: what NBA rules need to change to ensure being a cheap NBA owner is not profitable? I think the league should pool all revenue and then pay owners per win. There should be a break even point where crap teams lose money. Or more realistically, over-the-tax penalty payouts should be paid out to under-the-tax teams per win. I think the lottery should be flat odds and ping pong balls pulled for all 16 teams (not just top 3). Outlaw protections on traded picks. Me for commish!!!
I'm genuinely surprised the NBA hasn't come up with something like this yet. Their third biggest market (probably biggest global team) is a complete joke and everyone who actually pays attention to the NBA knows it. The NBA has to know it's a bad look.
"Or more realistically, over-the-tax penalty payouts should be paid out to under-the-tax teams per win."
Have to disagree with this part though. The Bulls are masters at being one of the better under the cap teams so this would only incentivize them to put out the best possible product (still mediocre) while remaining under the cap so they can get as big of a payout as possible.
They could scale up the payouts as the wins increase, like income tax brackets. So wins in the 51-60 range are paid out at a higher dollar than wins in the 41-50 range.
That wouldn't be a bad idea. That way it incentivizes actually trying to win if you're under the tax instead of being fine with being mediocre. If you're intent on staying under that tax, either you're trying to be as good as possible or you're trying to tank and accept that you won't get much of a payout. That would incentivize teams like the Bulls to pick a direction.
There should be absolutely zero incentive for tanking. This is why the lottery should be equally weighted and randomly picked for all 16 teams in it, not just top 3 picks
I like Bullini's idea that tanking should not be incentivized, but agree with you that perfectly flat should not be the goal. Not sure what the best balance is, though.
Lowe started his podcast talking about how recent NBA history was driven by two second-in-market teams trying: the Clippers and Nets
Reinsdorf has a lot of sway, and somehow has aligned with the small market teams to lower spending. If they want to increase spending (and 'the NBA' likely doesn't because it's run by the owners) it makes most sense put a 2nd team in Chicago
I don’t think we need to incentivize more spending, just more winning. The teams making the most money should be the ones delivering the most wins (legit 50+ win counts not play-in BS win counts!) while staying under the tax.
Not sure why I'm even suggesting this since AK would probably die if this thought even entered his head, but I'm avoiding work so here it goes.
The Bulls should shop Coby this summer. Let teams know he's available and that all they want back are picks. Then sell him to whoever is willing to give up the most draft capital for him. This accomplishes several things:
First, the Bulls are rebuilding, whether they want to admit it or not, and Coby is their best player. If there's anyone that will keep them from bottoming out, it's him. Do what you've failed to do so far, AK, and sell high for once. Coby is going to want a big payday in two years and there's no point in giving it to him when the rest of the team sucks. So trade him now and help make this current team worse - increasing draft lottery odds - while also increasing chances of hitting in the lottery by having more picks.
Second, it allows more time on a LaVine trade. If the rumors are true, AK is trying to use second round picks to move off of Zach's contract this summer. If there's one thing AK should not do when entering a rebuild, it's give away draft capital, even second rounders. The Bulls have a million guards right now and Coby and Zach basically play the same position. Moving Coby prior to the season will let Zach get up 20+ shots a night while letting Giddey primarily handle the ball (ie. let Zach do what he's best at while limiting him doing what he's worst at). I don't think anything will significantly rehab Zach's value, but if it's enough to at least ship him off at the trade deadline without including any other assets, I think it's worth it.
Third, with the new CBA rules, good players on cheap contracts are worth more than ever. Contending teams have most of their budgets wrapped up in their star players, which means finding good players on cheap contracts to fill in the holes is incredibly important. If Coby takes another step this year (or even is just played more to his strengths off-ball), he'll be a borderline All-Star. Having that for two years at $13 million per year is going to be very enticing to several teams.
Pretty much all of the above can also be said of Ayo, just to a slightly lesser extent. He's still a very solid player on a super cheap contract. I could see several teams wanting him coming off their bench. I'd imagine if the Bulls traded both Coby and Ayo for as many picks as possible, they could easily come away with at least five or more picks.
Eh I don't really like Sochan. Castle has good upside, but do we really need another non-shooting guard? Plus, Coby should be worth way more than a mediocre player, a rookie with upside and giving us our pick back that we're likely to keep anyway since we're tanking.
On the assumption we are tanking this season, a reminder, the protected pick rolls to 2026 and 2027 top 8 protected. Unless AKME have job security from the Reinsdorfs to tank for more than one season, I can't imagine the Bulls will retain that pick beyond 2025.
So on that note, imagine if AKME is allowed to tank for the next 2 seasons. That would mean during their 6 year run they've had 1 winning season. Since the 2021-22 season, their win total has decreased every season; a pattern that would only continue with tanking! How the fuck do you justify that?
Jerry just cares about the money. As long as the UC is filling up, which it does regardless of the product on the floor, and people are buying merch, he won't care what their record has been over the past several seasons.
A tank (or rebuild as I'm sure the org would prefer to call it) is happening because it has to. DeMar was the last domino to fall. As soon as he made it clear he didn't want to stay in Chicago, they knew this team had nowhere to go but down. He was the team's floor.
Rebuilds don't last one or even two years, despite what AK might think. They especially don't last only one or two years when you have very limited draft capital. So there is a very good chance that even though that top 10 protected pick becomes top 8 protected in 2026 and 2027 the Bulls will still be picking in the top 8 in 2027.
Regardless, my point was just that I think we could get a better haul than what you suggested. If it's true that teams were willing to give up two first round picks for less than a season and a half of Alex Caruso last trade deadline, I'd imagine teams would be willing to give up the same or more for two seasons of Coby at less than $13 million a season.
The truth, I think, is that the actual goal here for the AKMEBulls isn't so much "rebuilding" as avoiding the humiliation of giving up their pick in 25, 26, or 27 to the Spurs for a player that's no longer even playing for them. They're just gonna dog it for the next three years no matter what.
By the time we're done with the 27 draft, Coby and Ayo will likely be long gone.
So, without going too much into it, I've had a lot of bad news lately in my family. I've learned some hard lessons, one of which is that stupid, unreasonable people can't be reasoned with.
There's no perfectly crafted argument or speech or email or anything crafted to appeal to reason that's going to change the mind of someone who is making irrational decisions based on emotion.
Sorry to hear about the bad news in your family lately. Hopefully things get better soon.
With regard to making bad decisions based on emotion, do you really think that's what AK's doing? He doesn't seem like a particularly emotional guy. I feel like he's just making bad decisions because he genuinely doesn't know what he's doing.
I don't think it's a matter of being outwardly emotional. It's just that everyone is the hero of their own story. Everyone builds up a view of how the world is supposed to work and how they fit into it.
Like, when AK got up there after trading Caruso for Giddey and just shrugged when he was asked why he didn't get any picks or anything, that didn't seem like an outwardly emotional response. But, I think if asked him in the abstract, he'd probably say, yeah, it's good to get picks back and maximize your return for players. If you asked him whether it was wise to bet on players who get run off the court in the playoffs, or who can't shoot, he'd probably say it's better to do the opposite. That's all knowing what you're doing.
That last part is what "reason" is. Thinking about things as generalized principles, and then applying it to your specific situation. Some people are better at this than others, but nobody is perfect.
So how is it that AK gets from these general principles to specific decisions that are completely at odds with it? I think that's emotion. My sense is he's very quick to excuse away the things that don't add up because he really likes the things he does see.
That is, he just excuses away all of Giddey's flaws, and the fact that he didn't get value for Caruso, based on his conviction that Giddey is gonna be this awesome 6'8" PG centerpiece of the future. He sees something and falls in love with it.
I think this as well. I also think part of the reason is that it cannot be left to this franchise to negotiate Coby's next deal. But that's also why it cannot be left to this franchise to trade him. So that's the bind we're in.
Seriously, I didn't think this could happen again with these idiots, but Patrick being injured worse than I realized and getting that extension broke my brain. It might not be a bad contract. I like Patrick more than most around here. But it was an absolutely putrid negotiation. Giddy's next deal is terrifying.
I am genuinely curious about Pat's recovery though. I keep seeing pictures of him on the court at the Advocate Center and have seen some videos of him walking around pretty fine, so he seems to be pretty mobile. But then Darnell said his recovery is taking longer than hoped for and he may not be ready for the beginning of the season. So I'm not really sure what to think with him.
laughed, out loud (even) at Will Gottlieb's tweet today. Exactly what I mean when people have been Bulls-pilled. I'm guilty of it too sometimes
"The Bulls are finally in rebuild mode. Things are generally heading in a much better direction, but here are *7 things* I would have done differently"
I mean, he's not technically wrong. They are rebuilding and they are heading in a much better direction since they weren't previously heading in any direction. But yeah, it is sad that so much of the beat is so worn down by this team that they're pretty happy about this rebuild even though they know it's being done terribly. I'm probably in that camp too. Like I know this is going to go poorly unless they get super lucky, but I'm just happy the team I love is actually doing something.
"I'm happy my old family friend Ed Gein is finally hanging out with women other than his mom. Am I happy that those women are dead bodies Ed found in a cemetery? No, not really. So there's improvement to be made. But directionally this is more or less correct."
"The Bulls are in third place, but their nine best picks relative to expectations all came in the period from 2004 to 2011. There’s a reason Chicago peaked with a trip to the conference finals in 2011—and hasn’t been back since."
Speaking of tanking, I really think they need to keep pushing the flatten the lottery odds idea. Make it totally flat for all but the conference finalists and then the finalists bring up the rear in order of record. If parity is the new mantra, make it so everyone is trying to win all the time.
Yes yes yes. A weighted lottery was needed before salary caps and painful redistributions and penalties for over-spenders. Now that domination by the sexy markets is at least financially limited by the league (player preference will still be LA and Miami), there’s no need to do losing teams a solid by gifting better draft odds. Especially since the stat nerds have made losing a strategy to take advantage of those odds.
I'm not actually convinced it was ever helpful to small market teams. If the Lakers decide to suck, they still sell the house out every night. If Charlotte decides to suck, they won't. So the little guys have always had to pit their present fortunes against their future in a way that larger markets never had to. Meanwhile a team like the Pacers never sucked, and never got a high pick, as a punishment for their ambition. That's dumb as shit to my mind.
KC Johnson interviewed Matas on the Bulls Talk Podcast this morning. Nothing super interesting from it, honestly. He seems like a good kid though, so I hope he finds success here. Seems like he should be easy to root for.
KC pushed him pretty hard to talk about his goals for both Summer League and then also his first season in the NBA and he pretty much only said he wanted to win. I understand trying to be humble and whatnot, but I hope he actually has some goals for himself other than being a hard worker and "winning" because he definitely won't be doing much of the latter this year.
Every mention of the Bulls this offseason has been negative. Every Ringer podcast has lambasted the front office. It's really unbelievable how bad AKME is. One of the Tims on the Windhorst podcast said something like "the only thing the Bulls like more than doubling down on their mistakes is losing negotiations." Turning DDR and Caruso into Giddey, Duarte and 2 seconds is laughably bad but the Patrick Williams extension is insane. The fifth year is a player option (a/k/a a "Bulls Special") and per usual the Bulls bid against themselves to overpay. And this guy might not even play next season!
I know I'm in the minority but I actually don't mind the Williams extension. His QO was like $16 million so they're paying him $2 million extra a season. They also extended him before free agency started, so it's hard to say they bid against themselves when no one could bid yet.
I agree that it's unlikely he would have gotten more than $18 million on the open market, but my guess is there were at least a few teams interested at the QO or slightly over it. At worst, the Bulls slightly overpaid him. I also like that the contract is flat. It means they'll be paying him more next year and the following year, but they're already supposed to be bad those years so who cares if they spend a little more? They'll be spending less on Pat (percentage-wise) in years three, four and five.
I think the Pat extension is considerably different than the Vooch extension. They paid Vooch way more than he was worth before the open market had its chance to determine his value. They potentially paid Pat slightly more than he was worth before the market had a chance to determine his value. Due to Pat's age, there's at least a slight possibility someone would have gone high in hopes of unlocking his potential and then the Bulls would have had to decide if they wanted to match. That was never a question with Vooch because he was already old and bad when his last contract ended.
When it was reported I said fine as long as he didn’t have some kind of terrible injury.
Today I read that the Bulls aren’t sure if he’ll be recovered and ready to start the season.
One thing! One fucking thing I ask for!
I hadn't seen that until I just looked it up. It came from Mayberry too which makes me think it's probably legit.
I do know at the time of the injury/surgery there was talk of the rehab possibly taking quite a while due to the type of injury it was, so I'm guessing that's exactly what's happening.
Hopefully it's just something that takes a while to heal and isn't something that has lingering side effects, but I guess only time will tell.
it would really be something if we just signed another guy to sit his ass on the bench.
Would be the most Bulls thing ever.
Bulls gonna bulls.
My hand is raised!!!
on the one hand, it doesn't appear Mayberry is finding out new information on this, just that AK said post draft that he couldn't confirm Williams will be ready for training camp
on the other hand, that the Bulls themselves are being dodgy about this means we can only assume it's worse than they're letting on
Yep. Plus, weird recoveries after surgeries and the Bulls go hand in hand. I have seen a few videos that show Pat walking around pretty normally, so at least he's not stuck in a boot or something. But yeah, who knows how long it'll take him to recover from that surgery. And more importantly, it basically means he won't have been able to improve on anything this summer...
he doesn't have to improve, just get DeRozan out of his way!
On the hopium side... maybe they are planning to tank (or at least not put everything into trying to make the playoffs), so they are going to be extra conservative on injuries.
Probably not, but hope springs eternal.
I don't mind the extension either, it's not some colossal high-risk miscalculation like Vuc and Zach
more another example of losing on the margins. The 5th year player option, especially at the flat $18M, is a gift to Williams. He'll only exercise use that if things go very poorly for him, and other teams can only offer a 4-year deal.
So why give him this gift? It's not like they locked in that good of a starting salary by doing so. I suppose Charlotte could've offered 4 years starting at $20+M and de-escalate? That'd be another example of the Bulls being penny wise and pound foolish with their 2024 tax line, and (shocker) indicate they were not expecting to lose DeRozan at the outset of free agency but were 'forced' to because of incapability to trade Zach
AK and his stupid player options. He just has to include them in everything. I can't wait for one to really bit him in the ass.
I mean, Lonzo lol.
Ha very true. I guess I was thinking the opposite way though. Like what if Pat magically becomes super good and ends up declining his player option and forcing the Bulls to pay him way more that season simply because AK felt the need to make it a player option?
But yeah, I'm not sure any player option will bite him in the ass more than Lonzo's did!
This is the culmination of two years of gross franchise mismanagement. They didn't just miss the boat on flipping their assets, they dove into the water a week after the boat left and realized they couldn't swim. So now they've acknowledged, as water is filling their lungs, that it might be time to take a couple of swimming lessons and look into buying a life vest.
God, I love this metaphor.
I think the best part of this vicious backlash has been the SCALDING of the common fan who initially praised them for getting "something" for DeRozan. Sometimes the Bulls are able to tuck this stuff into a folder where it's not easily spotted, or disguise it as a basketball-related transaction. Sometimes though they can't hide it and their cheapskate asshole owner's motives are lain bare. This is one of those times. You have:
1. The payoff the Spurs got for DeMar DeRozan in 2021.
2. The payoff the Spurs got for DeMar DeRozan in 2024, which Sacramento would have shrugged and sent us if Reinsdorf would have paid for it.
It's sad that so many Bulls fans were happy with the return because "DeMar could have walked for nothing." The fact that fans are so accepting of this organization's cheapness is what allows them to continue being so cheap.
Were there fans that were happy they got "something" for the DDR deal? I'm mostly on here, so I haven't seen that at all.
The Bulls would have had to actively try to screw DDR over to get less than what they got (well, minus the two seconds)
The internets of full of people gleeful that the Bulls are "finally rebuilding".
Huh. I'm glad they are doing something. At least this will be something new, rather than a repeat of what we have already seen.
Without DDR to ride to the play-in and a bunch of new, flawed players, maybe Billy will be able to back off of playing the starters so many minutes and we'll get a chance to see the young guys develop on the court.
Don’t be surprised to see them offload Barnes for another future first. I’m not saying they will because they do want to win, but I could see them getting a 2029 pick swap or something from the Lakers or Heat or someone who is desperate for a 3-and-D wing
the tank-brained would say (and have, though I won't cite) that such a thing would've been bad and smart for the Bulls to avoid, because somehow Harrison Barnes would earn you too many victories
I don't know. I'm pretty pro-tank and I very much think the Bulls should have taken Barnes and then traded him for further assets.
they you are less poisoned than a lot I read. Granted, this is just a loud contingent in Twitter replies and Reddit, but they exist. There are DOZENS
The metaphor I've grown to accept is one of finally getting, like, a triple bypass heart surgery you've been waiting for.
And then the doctor walks in wearing a clown suit and dripping barbecue sauce and replaces your heart with a baked potato a la Kenny in the South Park movie. And everyone is like "Hey man, what are you complaining about, you really need this surgery!"
Fire AKME...Its GarPax 2.0
the problem is, I don't have faith in any manager while Reinsdorf owns the team
that is 100% true. i cant imagine a reason the dorf's would sell at this point anyway or at all. seems like a rare thing in the NBA
Who says no?
Chicago Bulls Receive: G/F Brandon Ingram, F Andrew Wiggins
Golden State Warriors Receive: G/F Zach LaVine
New Orleans Pelicans Receive: C Nikola Vučević, G Gary Payton II, C Kevon Looney, 2025 first-round pick (lottery-protected via Portland Trail Blazers), 2028 and 2029 second-round picks (via Chicago Bulls)
Bulls Receive: G/F Brandon Ingram, F Andrew Wiggins
Bulls Lose: G/F Zach LaVine, C Nikola Vučević, 2025 first-round pick (lottery-protected via Portland Trail Blazers), 2028 and 2029 second-round picks
Brandon Ingram being traded to the Bulls is a win-win for Chicago, no matter how the 2024-25 season plays out.
If Ingram doesn't fit, holds out for a max deal next summer and/or suffers further injuries, the Bulls can treat him as an expiring $36 million salary. Along with Lonzo Ball, that's $57.4 million projected to come off the books in 2025, and the hefty contracts of Zach LaVine and Nikola Vučević would also be gone.
Chicago would only have $90.1 million in guaranteed contracts with a 2025-26 salary-cap projection of $154.6 million, before factoring in a new contract for Josh Giddey. The Bulls would then be free to take on contracts to add draft picks to help with the rebuild or speed up the process by adding one of the marquee names in free agency. As of now, LeBron James, Jimmy Butler, Lauri Markkanen, Jamal Murray, Julius Randle, Myles Turner, Aaron Gordon and others will all be available.
Of course, if Ingram has another All-Star season in 2024-25, the Bulls might have a better chance keeping him as the only team that can offer him a five-year deal.
The 26-year-old averaged 20.8 points, 5.1 rebounds, 5.7 assists and shot 49.2 percent overall last season in New Orleans and could be even better if not having to share the ball with two other 20-point-per-game scorers in Zion Williamson and CJ McCollum.
The Bulls have to take on Andrew Wiggins in this deal, but he's owed $53.3 million less over the next three years than LaVine ($84.7 million compared to $138 million).
After the dust settles, Chicago has a core of Coby White, Ingram, Patrick Williams, Giddey, Matas Buzelis, Jalen Smith and Ayo Dosunmu, all players age 26 or younger.
This trade gets rid of the Bulls' worst contracts (LaVine and Vučević) while giving them a year to determine how Ingram fits with the team.
> As of now, LeBron James, Jimmy Butler, Lauri Markkanen
Bruh.
I feel like someone read my Zach+Vuc for CJ+Ingram idea and make it convoluted and complicated.
First, the Warriors have no interest in Zach.
Second how does this make sense for the Pelicans? They literally just traded for a win now guy (who happens to be good friends with Zach). Future picks (not even firsts likely to convey) don’t do anything for them and neither do washed up GP2 and Looney.
I’ll go back to my suggestion of dealing straight with the Pels. Zach and Vuc for Ingram and CJ
It ain’t great but it actually solves some problems for both teams. The Pelicans don’t want to pay Ingram for 4-5 more years, but maybe they’d take Zach for 3 as a compromise. He’s a better shooter and fit than Ingram assuming he’s healthy.CJ is kind of washed and doesn’t easily fit with Murray.
I have no idea what to do either of those guys. I don’t think there’s much market for either of them, but the worst case scenario is they’re a step in the direction of cleaning up the Bulls books.
Me.
off-topic FA stuff
Pistons just claimed Paul Reed on Waivers. That's rare. $7.7M less cap room for them now to take on dumpage
Didn’t read any of these guys. Had the same thoughts as them. Refreshing to see.
Disappointed your “He’s not alone” link did not link to my prior BaB comment
New topic: what NBA rules need to change to ensure being a cheap NBA owner is not profitable? I think the league should pool all revenue and then pay owners per win. There should be a break even point where crap teams lose money. Or more realistically, over-the-tax penalty payouts should be paid out to under-the-tax teams per win. I think the lottery should be flat odds and ping pong balls pulled for all 16 teams (not just top 3). Outlaw protections on traded picks. Me for commish!!!
I'm genuinely surprised the NBA hasn't come up with something like this yet. Their third biggest market (probably biggest global team) is a complete joke and everyone who actually pays attention to the NBA knows it. The NBA has to know it's a bad look.
"Or more realistically, over-the-tax penalty payouts should be paid out to under-the-tax teams per win."
Have to disagree with this part though. The Bulls are masters at being one of the better under the cap teams so this would only incentivize them to put out the best possible product (still mediocre) while remaining under the cap so they can get as big of a payout as possible.
They could scale up the payouts as the wins increase, like income tax brackets. So wins in the 51-60 range are paid out at a higher dollar than wins in the 41-50 range.
That wouldn't be a bad idea. That way it incentivizes actually trying to win if you're under the tax instead of being fine with being mediocre. If you're intent on staying under that tax, either you're trying to be as good as possible or you're trying to tank and accept that you won't get much of a payout. That would incentivize teams like the Bulls to pick a direction.
There should be absolutely zero incentive for tanking. This is why the lottery should be equally weighted and randomly picked for all 16 teams in it, not just top 3 picks
So you're saying all 16 teams should have the same chance of getting the top pick? I'm going to have to agree to disagree on that one.
I like Bullini's idea that tanking should not be incentivized, but agree with you that perfectly flat should not be the goal. Not sure what the best balance is, though.
Any ideas?
Lowe started his podcast talking about how recent NBA history was driven by two second-in-market teams trying: the Clippers and Nets
Reinsdorf has a lot of sway, and somehow has aligned with the small market teams to lower spending. If they want to increase spending (and 'the NBA' likely doesn't because it's run by the owners) it makes most sense put a 2nd team in Chicago
I don’t think we need to incentivize more spending, just more winning. The teams making the most money should be the ones delivering the most wins (legit 50+ win counts not play-in BS win counts!) while staying under the tax.
Not sure why I'm even suggesting this since AK would probably die if this thought even entered his head, but I'm avoiding work so here it goes.
The Bulls should shop Coby this summer. Let teams know he's available and that all they want back are picks. Then sell him to whoever is willing to give up the most draft capital for him. This accomplishes several things:
First, the Bulls are rebuilding, whether they want to admit it or not, and Coby is their best player. If there's anyone that will keep them from bottoming out, it's him. Do what you've failed to do so far, AK, and sell high for once. Coby is going to want a big payday in two years and there's no point in giving it to him when the rest of the team sucks. So trade him now and help make this current team worse - increasing draft lottery odds - while also increasing chances of hitting in the lottery by having more picks.
Second, it allows more time on a LaVine trade. If the rumors are true, AK is trying to use second round picks to move off of Zach's contract this summer. If there's one thing AK should not do when entering a rebuild, it's give away draft capital, even second rounders. The Bulls have a million guards right now and Coby and Zach basically play the same position. Moving Coby prior to the season will let Zach get up 20+ shots a night while letting Giddey primarily handle the ball (ie. let Zach do what he's best at while limiting him doing what he's worst at). I don't think anything will significantly rehab Zach's value, but if it's enough to at least ship him off at the trade deadline without including any other assets, I think it's worth it.
Third, with the new CBA rules, good players on cheap contracts are worth more than ever. Contending teams have most of their budgets wrapped up in their star players, which means finding good players on cheap contracts to fill in the holes is incredibly important. If Coby takes another step this year (or even is just played more to his strengths off-ball), he'll be a borderline All-Star. Having that for two years at $13 million per year is going to be very enticing to several teams.
Pretty much all of the above can also be said of Ayo, just to a slightly lesser extent. He's still a very solid player on a super cheap contract. I could see several teams wanting him coming off their bench. I'd imagine if the Bulls traded both Coby and Ayo for as many picks as possible, they could easily come away with at least five or more picks.
Maybe Coby could be dangled in front of Spurs to possibly advance their timeline?
Something like a return of Stephon Castle/Jeremy Sochan, and regain their protected pick from the DeRozan s&t.
Eh I don't really like Sochan. Castle has good upside, but do we really need another non-shooting guard? Plus, Coby should be worth way more than a mediocre player, a rookie with upside and giving us our pick back that we're likely to keep anyway since we're tanking.
On the assumption we are tanking this season, a reminder, the protected pick rolls to 2026 and 2027 top 8 protected. Unless AKME have job security from the Reinsdorfs to tank for more than one season, I can't imagine the Bulls will retain that pick beyond 2025.
So on that note, imagine if AKME is allowed to tank for the next 2 seasons. That would mean during their 6 year run they've had 1 winning season. Since the 2021-22 season, their win total has decreased every season; a pattern that would only continue with tanking! How the fuck do you justify that?
Jerry just cares about the money. As long as the UC is filling up, which it does regardless of the product on the floor, and people are buying merch, he won't care what their record has been over the past several seasons.
A tank (or rebuild as I'm sure the org would prefer to call it) is happening because it has to. DeMar was the last domino to fall. As soon as he made it clear he didn't want to stay in Chicago, they knew this team had nowhere to go but down. He was the team's floor.
Rebuilds don't last one or even two years, despite what AK might think. They especially don't last only one or two years when you have very limited draft capital. So there is a very good chance that even though that top 10 protected pick becomes top 8 protected in 2026 and 2027 the Bulls will still be picking in the top 8 in 2027.
Regardless, my point was just that I think we could get a better haul than what you suggested. If it's true that teams were willing to give up two first round picks for less than a season and a half of Alex Caruso last trade deadline, I'd imagine teams would be willing to give up the same or more for two seasons of Coby at less than $13 million a season.
I think this is obvious.
The truth, I think, is that the actual goal here for the AKMEBulls isn't so much "rebuilding" as avoiding the humiliation of giving up their pick in 25, 26, or 27 to the Spurs for a player that's no longer even playing for them. They're just gonna dog it for the next three years no matter what.
By the time we're done with the 27 draft, Coby and Ayo will likely be long gone.
Totally agree, which is exactly why the Bulls should sell high for once.
So, without going too much into it, I've had a lot of bad news lately in my family. I've learned some hard lessons, one of which is that stupid, unreasonable people can't be reasoned with.
There's no perfectly crafted argument or speech or email or anything crafted to appeal to reason that's going to change the mind of someone who is making irrational decisions based on emotion.
Aw, sorry for the family stuff. Wishing you the best!
Sorry to hear about the bad news in your family lately. Hopefully things get better soon.
With regard to making bad decisions based on emotion, do you really think that's what AK's doing? He doesn't seem like a particularly emotional guy. I feel like he's just making bad decisions because he genuinely doesn't know what he's doing.
I don't think it's a matter of being outwardly emotional. It's just that everyone is the hero of their own story. Everyone builds up a view of how the world is supposed to work and how they fit into it.
Like, when AK got up there after trading Caruso for Giddey and just shrugged when he was asked why he didn't get any picks or anything, that didn't seem like an outwardly emotional response. But, I think if asked him in the abstract, he'd probably say, yeah, it's good to get picks back and maximize your return for players. If you asked him whether it was wise to bet on players who get run off the court in the playoffs, or who can't shoot, he'd probably say it's better to do the opposite. That's all knowing what you're doing.
That last part is what "reason" is. Thinking about things as generalized principles, and then applying it to your specific situation. Some people are better at this than others, but nobody is perfect.
So how is it that AK gets from these general principles to specific decisions that are completely at odds with it? I think that's emotion. My sense is he's very quick to excuse away the things that don't add up because he really likes the things he does see.
That is, he just excuses away all of Giddey's flaws, and the fact that he didn't get value for Caruso, based on his conviction that Giddey is gonna be this awesome 6'8" PG centerpiece of the future. He sees something and falls in love with it.
I could definitely see that.
Thanks guys, things are pointed in the right direction now, I think.
Good vibes to you and yours, Mike.
I think this as well. I also think part of the reason is that it cannot be left to this franchise to negotiate Coby's next deal. But that's also why it cannot be left to this franchise to trade him. So that's the bind we're in.
Seriously, I didn't think this could happen again with these idiots, but Patrick being injured worse than I realized and getting that extension broke my brain. It might not be a bad contract. I like Patrick more than most around here. But it was an absolutely putrid negotiation. Giddy's next deal is terrifying.
Giddey about to get a max extension!
I am genuinely curious about Pat's recovery though. I keep seeing pictures of him on the court at the Advocate Center and have seen some videos of him walking around pretty fine, so he seems to be pretty mobile. But then Darnell said his recovery is taking longer than hoped for and he may not be ready for the beginning of the season. So I'm not really sure what to think with him.
laughed, out loud (even) at Will Gottlieb's tweet today. Exactly what I mean when people have been Bulls-pilled. I'm guilty of it too sometimes
"The Bulls are finally in rebuild mode. Things are generally heading in a much better direction, but here are *7 things* I would have done differently"
(emphasis mine)
I mean, he's not technically wrong. They are rebuilding and they are heading in a much better direction since they weren't previously heading in any direction. But yeah, it is sad that so much of the beat is so worn down by this team that they're pretty happy about this rebuild even though they know it's being done terribly. I'm probably in that camp too. Like I know this is going to go poorly unless they get super lucky, but I'm just happy the team I love is actually doing something.
"I'm happy my old family friend Ed Gein is finally hanging out with women other than his mom. Am I happy that those women are dead bodies Ed found in a cemetery? No, not really. So there's improvement to be made. But directionally this is more or less correct."
Thank God for the White Sox and Cubs
Interesting article that says the Bulls have the third best rate of Draft Value vs Expected return in the past 20 years. https://www.theringer.com/2021/7/28/22597310/nba-draft-expectations
However, it was all front loaded:
"The Bulls are in third place, but their nine best picks relative to expectations all came in the period from 2004 to 2011. There’s a reason Chicago peaked with a trip to the conference finals in 2011—and hasn’t been back since."
Speaking of tanking, I really think they need to keep pushing the flatten the lottery odds idea. Make it totally flat for all but the conference finalists and then the finalists bring up the rear in order of record. If parity is the new mantra, make it so everyone is trying to win all the time.
Yes yes yes. A weighted lottery was needed before salary caps and painful redistributions and penalties for over-spenders. Now that domination by the sexy markets is at least financially limited by the league (player preference will still be LA and Miami), there’s no need to do losing teams a solid by gifting better draft odds. Especially since the stat nerds have made losing a strategy to take advantage of those odds.
I'm not actually convinced it was ever helpful to small market teams. If the Lakers decide to suck, they still sell the house out every night. If Charlotte decides to suck, they won't. So the little guys have always had to pit their present fortunes against their future in a way that larger markets never had to. Meanwhile a team like the Pacers never sucked, and never got a high pick, as a punishment for their ambition. That's dumb as shit to my mind.
It's time for The Wheel!
https://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-nbas-possible-solution-for-tanking-good-bye-to-the-lottery-hello-to-the-wheel/
KC Johnson interviewed Matas on the Bulls Talk Podcast this morning. Nothing super interesting from it, honestly. He seems like a good kid though, so I hope he finds success here. Seems like he should be easy to root for.
KC pushed him pretty hard to talk about his goals for both Summer League and then also his first season in the NBA and he pretty much only said he wanted to win. I understand trying to be humble and whatnot, but I hope he actually has some goals for himself other than being a hard worker and "winning" because he definitely won't be doing much of the latter this year.