I keep revising my list of top FO missteps and can't decide which was worse: the trade for Vuc or his extension? The trade wads so horribly lopsided that it might go down as the worst trade in franchise history, but the extension was doubling down on that terrible mistake which might make it worse.
I think it was the extension, but hear me out. The trade itself delivered immediate negative dividends. Right after he was traded here, a basically .500 team lost 4 in a row, won 3, then lost 5, including getting destroyed by a Magic squad that had pretty much traded away not just Vucevic but most of their rotation. They played themselves right out of the fringe playoff seed they were aiming at.
The sugar rush of Art Karni actually making not one but TWO trades and then the summer frenzy of MULTIPLE SIGNINGS kind of made everyone overlook this! Like immediately, it did not work. Watching it, it wasn't hard to see it did not work, and why. And everything for the last 2 more years has been a video record of it not working and why it is not working.
I definitely think it was the extension. I didn't hate the trade, it was an overpay but at least showed they were trying. The extension and the idea of running it back with the Lonzo excuse for the third year was just embarrassing.
I did not "hate" the trade because I am a BaB poster and have rightfully earned a reputation as a pessimist and hater and wanted to be positive for once. But you know what? We were right! The only mistake I made was pretending to be lukewarm about the trade and positive about the Bulls future in spite of all of my misgivings. I will never make that mistake again! The haters are right! We are all going to die!
lol. like I said, I definitely get the criticism... but the real failure of the trade was NOT trading his expiring contract after the experiment failed! And maybe that's why the haters were right. you all knew that giving him a ludicrous extension was an inevitability.
I wanted to give AKME credit for choking up on the bat and swinging hard with the initial trade, so it was the Vucivec extension that was the complete sleep of death moment for me. As Gran points out, anyone watching Vooch, Zach and DDR share the floor saw this, the numbers bore it out. This trio has been a panopticon of misery from jump street. And AKME has chosen to sink into it, for reasons I simply can't understand.
Yup. The trade was aggressive. We hadn't seen that since... ? The extension was the opposite of aggressive -- maintain the status quo even when the status quo is pointless.
An underrated one was sitting on their hands at the start.
They took months to fire Boylen. Boylen!
And then they did nothing the first off-season because they wanted to "see what they had" (if I am remembering correctly).
You know how you can see what you have? By doing in-league scouting during your last half-decade plus in the league. Surprised he was not aware of this.
He can control much more than playing time. Most coaches in this league are worthless, and Donovan is one of them.
What a great thing Utah has done for us the last year and a half. Before, every time you tried to argue that a team should be more imaginative offensively, you'd search for examples in the league, and every one you found would be a talented team. So wags could say "It's not imagination. It's talent."
But now we have Utah. A team with possibly the least talented perimeter corps in a league that's dominated offensively by perimeter skill. And they're 15th in offense. Give them Mike Conley (i.e. an average starting point guard) and they're top 10. Bulls were 22nd in offense last year. They're 26th this year. But you watch Utah, and even if you're like me and you don't know shit about designing an offense, you still know you're watching something different. And that's not talent, it's not that Utah's guys are geniuses. It's just what good coaching actually looks like.
I think coaches are much like middle management in lots of places. I bet most of them could do what Hardy and Nurse are doing if they were given the green light to do it.
Those guys both got a very clear "do whatever works" message.
I think a lot of guys, and Donovan is one of them, get a "do whatever keeps everyone happy" message.
But who's going to be most embarrassed by Donovan benching Vuc? AKME.
The good news is the team checking out in the first ~7 games has allowed me to feel no guilt about checking out myself. I am no longer disappointed when I check the score. I expect blowouts, and they deliver. At least we have an inevitable(?) trade or two to look forward to. What could go wrong?
If the offseason strategy of playing through Vuc more actually "worked" this season, the likely ceiling of this team is still only about 42 wins. That's the Mid 3 playing well together; 42 wins. Given that it has all fallen apart in glorious fashion, how are we not the happiest fan base in the league? Vuc should be mailed a trophy from BaB. And Donovan, as always, is irrelevant and has little actual bearing on if this team caps out at 42 or collapses into 30. I think Donovan comes back next year if he wants; you'd be a fool to dream otherwise given this ownership group. If we won 42, nothing would change. Since we're catastrophically failing sooner than expected, is this not cause for celebration? I'm enjoying this season much more than last so far, change is on the way! It will probably still result in sucking, but it's better than status quo
I'm not sure I'm following this logic. Can we not simultaneously be happy that this season is crumbling while also being upset at the front office for not trading away their mismatched pieces while they still had value?
Like I'd much rather be one of the worst teams in the league because we're playing a bunch of unpolished young guys with draft picks and cap space to spare instead of being one of the worst teams in the league because our three overpaid/over-the-hill "stars" have given up on this team.
My point is no one around here sounds happy, when we should be. It is rather the tone of endless consternation over Vuc and Billy. That's the point. If anything we should all be thanking these guys for their roles as accelerationists if they really had as much impact as these articles purport ( which I don't think they do). Regardless, why the negativity. We're getting the best possible result this season
Not having been born yesterday may be informing these emotional responses. This franchise doesn't do anything well. No reason to think they'd ace a rebuild any more than they've aced anything else. Is tearing it down the right move? Probably. But no reason to feel happy about it, as drafting a guy who ends up winning an MVP is the only move they've ever made that works. Good luck with that.
Oh c'mon Moon cry me a river. Are you guys really going to sit around and moan this entire rebuild? What a sad excuse for a fan base. At least suspend disbelief and look to at least luck into good trades and draft picks. We've known this team wasn't going anywhere since the end of the season stretch in 2021, and we finally get to the point where we rebuild, and you guys all want to sit around and make variations of the same sob stories. Seriously what is the point in even being a fan then?
Negative, yes. But he used to be creative. And I'm known for being negative as well. Which is why I've been saying AK and Donovan sucked since the end of the 2021 season after Deebo came down from God mode and we all saw reality of this squad. But this is not the time for sitting around talking about Vuc and Billy... Find some hopeful things to talk about in a rebuild. We're at the most exciting part, right before it all happens, anything could happen. Even KC is righting articles now about how the season is based on trade returns. So yes, Yfbb used to write cynical and sarcastic, but also creative articles. Now it's just flip a coin on whether you want to blame Vuc or Billy in this article. Which apparently must be what everyone wants otherwise why would he decide to write them? Maybe I'm the idiot, choosing to try and enjoy this rebuild
Nah, I get where you're coming from. I've stated on here that I've actually been enjoying this season as we're watching this team implode because it means change will eventually come.
I'm not sure I'd say I'm excited for that change because I don't exactly trust AK to do a good job, but it's at least better than watching this team win 40ish games every year.
I love me some CC so look forward to it.... I mean seriously we can all go back to the last month of 2021 season, and guys like Doug Thonus and Ricky O'Donnell knew this team was a fraud. A minority, but signifcant number none the less, of BaB commenters knew it as well. Nothing new has really happened since the end of that season, it's just been waiting for the reset. All fans in variations of the 5 stages of grieving.
This is the best era of Bulls since then. There's hope; it may be slim, but it's better than the devil we knew. If anyone here thinks Vuc and Billy are the main culprits, while simultaneously thinking the team needs a reset, well then what are you waiting for? Start carving trophy's out of the finest mohagony and send them to Vuc and Billy as appreciation. Why on earth would such a person complain about them if they truly thought they were the main problems AND that the team needs a reset?
The ONLY scenario that gets me to respect Donovan again: this is intentional sabotage from the inside which leads to the firing of AKME and Reinsdorf installing better leadership. In that case Donovan should still be let go but I would thank him for his services.
Of course Billy is coaching for his next job not this one. He knows he doesn't have the authority to succeed (see what happened when he benched Zach) nor a FO that will build a logical roster, so he's looking to the future.
Billy's future job isn't on another team, though. It's under a different GM. Just like all of us, he knows AK has botched it and has not gotten him a PG when the team has needed one for a couple years now. AK is on his way out the door (end of the year, maybe?) and Billy is just struggling through like everyone else.
>"league sources said that, at least for now, Karnišovas is responding to inquiries on other players by saying he wants to see what the roster looks like post-LaVine trade first."
But then KC doesn't correctly editorialize off this information. Saying "with Karnišovas’ admission that he sees what everyone sees, change is coming", when that sourced information and AK's entire history suggesting otherwise: that part of AK's entire "doesn't know what he's doing" job performance includes NOT seeing what everyone is seeing, whether he says he does or not.
But more important thing is that rumor. It indicates a LaVine trade could be happening in advance of the Lakers-or-bust deadline of January 15.
if we're to believe league sources in that AK wants a Zach trade soon, then have to not cater to Klutch and try to find another team just as desperate as you are.
That's the Pistons. We've talked about it here before, but think while more desperate after each loss I don't think they'd part with Ivey.
So I'm thinking a trade where you get less attractive assets, but still some:
Zach+Dalen (for tax reasons)
for
Burks+Harris+Wiseman+Sasser+1 protected first + 2 seconds
This is a win-win in that both teams get closer to 30 wins. I think the Bulls would actually look better replacing Zach's minutes with Burks and more Coby+Carter+Ayo+Harris to fill in the rest.
Of course I'd like to send Vuc out too but he's on a negative value contract already and don't want to use LaVine or other assets just to move his money off. Can improve the on-court squad simply by playing him less. I'm sure Wiseman sucks but at least you get a look before free agency. Drummond will likely be a dump at the deadline to get more safely under the tax.
Then, and I don't think this is the best idea, but what AK may be thinking, you get a look at a post-LaVine roster and a couple more assets and can pivot off of that information instead of trading everyone for little just to get a better pick this season.
Fair. I'm not sure another team offers either better assets or more salary relief. Detroit is well under the tax so they can better 'absorb' Zach. There's SOME harm in waiting bc ::gestures towards the current team:: but not much. Burks is good, assuming Bulls still selling at deadline can flip him.
I started thinking this out and it seems like about the most reasonable option.
I think given the large number of middling contracts they have, they can absorb Vuc as well. Further, I think they'd probably do that before they included Sasser, who looks like a good player.
My objective would be:
1. Get Jaden Hardy + 1 future 1st.
2. Get them to take back Vuc for Wisemen and Bagley. I'm going to say this quietly, but Bagley has not been completely terrible this year. He's a better, younger player on a better contract than Vuc.
3. Get a couple of seconds, DET has several to give.
Trade is Zach, Vuc, Terry for Hardy, Wiseman, Bagley, Joe Harris and a FRP that conveys as soon as Detroit settles its current obligation to NYK (likely not until 2026, but possibly not until 2028.
Will Detroit?
1- Cade/Sasser
2- Zach, Burks
3- Bojan, Knox
4- Stewart, Livers
5- Duren, Vuc
That's... well, it's better than what they've got now. It's honestly not terrible if they're trying to be respectable.
1/2 Defender- Caruso, Ayo
1/2 Shooter- Coby, Hardy, Carter
3- DeMar
4- Pat, Craig
5- Bagley, Drummond, Wiseman
The other team I can imagine actually having interest in Zach is the Raptors, but I still can't figure a good trade out for us. They likely can't give a pick before 2026 either, and their pick is likely to be worse than any Detroit pick. I don't think they'd have any interest in taking back Vuc, and I don't think they have any player like Hardy who's at least a moderately intriguing prospect. OG or Siakam would have to be turned around and swapped again, or maybe AKME would foolishly want to keep them, I don't know. I liked Gradey Dick as a prospect, but he's been pretty trash so far. So I think the Pistons offer would be better.
Obviously, Zach might not want to go to the Pistons, but I think this is where the Bulls need to hold firm and point out that we don't always get what we want, and he'll at least be wanted there.
Again, this is the guy that needed to waste his first off-season evaluating the players after taking this job. Video exists. Statistics exist. You have been in the league for years. In-league scouting exists. If you "wait and see" this means that you have not prepared and do not mind ceding the initiative to the competition.
The NBA really needs non-guaranteed contracts for all players/coaches/front office people! The basketball played would be so much better (or maybe everyone would move to the Chinese league???)
Billy can quit any time he wants, it just means he won't get his money.
Apparently Skiles thought he would get fired in Milwaukee and was cleaning out his office cheerfully thinking about what he would do with all that free cash when they informed him that they were not firing him and he'd have to quit, which would forfeit his nest egg. And he began unpacking again.
Good game by Patrick, btw. I continue to be happy with what I've seen from him defensively since like January of '23, when something clicked and he started figuring out how NBA basketball actually works. Hope the shots continue going down at a decent clip, because this team needs both him and Caruso to play good minutes to have a prayer of defending anyone.
I will say, last night was the best he looked off-ball (on offense) in a long time. He had several good back cuts and some nice offensive rebounds/tips. Not saying it was amazing by means since the bar is incredibly low, but it was still positive. He had a few minutes in the second quarter where he was literally the only Bull trying on either side of the court.
I think a big part of that is because this team sucks at passing and the coach sucks too. His off-ball offense literally has never looked better than it did his rookie year when Thad was doing his weird Draymond impression and Patrick was making very Miami-esque dive cuts toward the basket off Thad's gravity in the middle.
That could happen, but I think the more likely good path is he continues to improve on the things he has already done well: defense and shooting.
I noticed this last year, but his intersection of shooting accuracy and shot blocking is really unique. Patrick finished last season tied for 33rd in the NBA in FT%. Of the players in the top 40 in this stat, only Durant, Embiid, and Porzingis had a higher BLK%. Similarly, Patrick was 16th in the league in 3pt%. Of the players in the top 30 in this stat, no one had a higher BLK% than Patrick.
So to me, the most likely really good outcome is that he continues to deepen his defensive understanding and activity level as a helper, and incrementally builds out his ability to shoot for volume in addition to accuracy. But development is weird and unpredictable. So who really knows.
I'm shooting in the dark here, but I kind of think his handles (or lack of handles) may be directly affected by his confidence. There are times where his handles look more than passable for a 3/4 but then there are also times where it looks like he's never dribbled a basketball in his life.
Alright, I'm going to riff on development here. Feel free to ignore me, sometimes you just have to commit things to writing.
I've become a "flashes" guy. I didn't used to be, but among other things, my experiences with young people at my work has changed my mind. My old attitude was "the meaning of being good is consistency, so why should I credit these flashes for a player's development?" I don't think that anymore. Partially, I do now think there is something to the idea that if you can do it once, or a few times, then you can do it regularly. Can, not will.
But I think the flashes matter even more for the process of role formation. Previously I never gave enough thought to how many young players have no good answer to a question like "if you're successful in the NBA, what will that look like?" These guys have basically only ever been awesome, so they have little frame of reference for the problems they're facing now. And they're having to address this novelty, largely it seems by themselves, at age 20. That sounds really fuckin hard!
I think flashes can give players a concrete representation of what being successful in the NBA might look like. Do you know the best game Lauri played prior to the Jazz? It sounds dumb, but I swear there is a right answer to this question lol.
October 23, 2019. Bulls lose by 1 in Charlotte. Lauri goes 1/7 from three and was -8 for the game. It's the best game he played until last year. He was so big and fast and athletic and relentless on the basket. It was the first game I ever saw of his that made me understand him as a prospect. In hindsight, this was important. He plays like this twice a week now.
I'm rambling because "confidence" is kind of a catch-all term. And often I think lack of confidence is less directly about the player's attitude towards their ability, and more about not having a good answer to the question "how can I achieve individual success while also fitting in?" I think Patrick, like a ton of other young guys, is still working this out. As I said above, I don't he even began figuring out how NBA basketball works until like January of last year, when things started clicking for him defensively.
I agree with you. That's why it's so important for a team to be able to develop young players. Some teams are great at it and some are terrible at it. The Bulls fall into the latter group, unfortunately.
Earlier this year yfbb said the Bulls basically don't believe in development. I forgot if it was AK or Eversley, but whoever it was said something like "that's on the player". Obviously that is a fireable offense. But I also think whoever said that should have to go to jail. Nothing crazy, just like a week. But yes, they should be imprisoned.
i don't see him ever being a plus ballhandler. He still has potential to be a solid 3 and D wing but he's never going to be a guy who get his own points or is gonna break anyone down off the dribble. All the ballhandling that we get teased in those offseason vids where he is breaking randoms off the bounce in some LA Fitness are just a mirage. He couldn't even get by 50 year old Al Horford. All the fancy looking shit he does is just fluff, none of that shit will work against NBA defenders
on the right team, he could be a 14/6 player that gives B+ defense....just won't be here.
He would be a good fit on OKC honestly...they need some wing sized defenders over there. i could see them giving up a late 1st for him
i’ve always considered the front office mandate to be “field a competitive team, aim for the Everybody Gets In playoffs and postseason gate revenue. otherwise a bad team yields the chance for a young, cost-controlled star.”
i think being mediocre has always been an acceptable outcome. it leads to wishy washy evaluations that AK has become famous for. i think the one no-no on the list of mandates is “do not be so bad that it becomes a headline,” and currently, that is being violated. do i think it will lead to expeditious changes? no, but changes nonetheless (eventually)
Yes, there was a time when Jerry's model was the boom/bust cycle: you pay more when your team is good and then reap a larger profit after you wave the white flag and blow it up. Fortunately/unfortunately, the NBA has raised the payroll floor high enough that you can't simply bank $30 or $40 million by filling your roster with 2nd round draft picks and whatever the hell Dedrick Willoughby was. It's 90% of the salary cap. Hard to squeeze big bucks from that, even over several years.
I think it's a very easy sell to tell Jerry he should gamble on a playoff team and a 1st round exit. Last season was PERFECT except for the final quarter of the Miami play-in. You're right on the edge of getting 2 or 3 games of home playoff revenue. Likely very easy to tell him that repeating everything his team probably holds their lead this time. Not a horrid gamble all things considered, and when the stakes are that low.
If Jerry has a burner here he's probably as pissed off by the same things most of us are. Let's say they let Vucevic walk, they sign Christian Wood to Jevon Carter's contract and everything else is the same. They'd be down in the bottom rung of salaries without Vucevic's $20 million and it's hard to imagine they'd be any worse, even with Wood playing at his worst.
Honestly, being also-ran is a pretty acceptable outcome if the team is, like, actually fun to watch. There are a bunch of fun 45 win teams in the league, and I watch their shit all the time, it's entertaining as hell. To me, the promise of the Lonzo era was less "hey, this could be a conference finalist" and more "this team stands a chance of rewarding your decision to watch it".
- Play Caruso more! He has the most impact on the floor of any Bulls player. I get that you can't have a team full of Caruso's, but he has such an impact, that he needs to be out there more. Every, single advanced metric has him as our most impactful player (I checked EPM, RAPTOR...last season, and DPM). He needs to be out on the floor, and he needs to start.
- The Bulls use the pick and roll WAY too much for a team with a bunch of crappy point guards. The Bulls generate offense from PnR handler shots 20.6% of the time and put up .9 points per possession on those attempts. That 20.6% is second highest in the league. The Bucks (who have two...arguably three players) who play well out of the pick and roll only get shots 16.9% of the time (but they average 1.09 ppp). The Bulls use the roll man 2nd highest in frequency and are 3rd from the bottom in ppp on those attempts. In short, they use pick and rolls the most or close to it in the league even though their effeciency on those plays BLOWS!
- What plays are the Bulls good at? Well...
DDR gets 1.10 ppp on post ups, but he only gets 2.2 per game. If he's going to be out there, set screens for him to get in a post up opportunity and let him work. Vuc gets 2.9 post ups per game and gets 0.73 ppp. Give all of those to DDR. Vuc sucks.
LaVine only gets 1.00 ppp off screens, but I think part of it is that his frequency is so dang low at less than once per game. He should get more of chance there....again, if you play him...which you shouldn't do as much...because you should trade him...now
Caruso is a solid transition and spot up player, so again, play him more.
- Last, the Bulls need easy ways to score. IMO, the Bulls should focus on rebounding, including offensive rebounding. Play Torrey Craig more and play Drummond more (this more because Vuc sucks) and crash the glass on both ends more.
- Ok, one more. Sit your damn point guards down. They suck anyway. Play Caruso, LaVine, DDR, PAW, and Vuc to start. Get DDR some post up opportunities on offense, play aggressive defense, and crash the glass a bit more. Then, trade Vuc and LaVine because Vuc sucks, and you might get something decent for LaVine.
Orienting the offense around DDR post ups is a good idea that Vuc will de facto veto on account of not shooting enough and making enough shots and being a pouty oaf.
OR, stop playing Caruso altogether. He is our best asset and gets hurt approximaltey once per three games. You're playing with fire putting him on the court right now to lose by 8 instead of 18.
I'm fine if you want to trade him. But if you are not going to, you need to play him. Don't play him because we'll lose anyway is dumb strategy, unless you are going to trade him. I'm not saying play him 48 minutes, just play him more.
In regards to Caruso's health, I think the position he's playing is likely as important, if not more so, than the amount of minutes he plays. He's primarily played this season as a PF, whether that was off the bench or as a starter. Caruso gets hurt because he's constantly trying to guard guys who are way bigger than he is.
This. In that video yfbb linked, Joe Cowley asked Billy about benching his players and Billy basically said it wasn't going to happen. The only way we trade Vooch is to a team that's willing to take on a bad contract. If that's the case, we're not getting anything positive in return.
Yeah I didn't address this but you're probably right: another part of Billy playing the game for his career is his willingness to satisfy his bosses, which means not embarrassing the Double-Single Machine
Lavine may end up being dealt away before 15 Jan, since it now seems the Lakers (while having some interest in Lavine) are much more interested in Caruso and DDR.
Also Houston on the record saying they're not interested in Zach. At this point, who is anymore???
Why don't we actually go through this as it is a bit sobering about what kind of return we can actually get for him.
I looked through the salaries and was actually surprised at how many teams could actually cobble together 40 million. But, in contrast to the Bulls, most teams have a strategy and direction, so the question is if Lavine complements these things. Here is my list but feel free to chime in.
Actually likely teams:
Charlotte. This is the only other team in the league that seems to put "actually winning games" as a secondary component in their team-building strategy. This makes them a more likely Lavine destination. Hayward is an easy swap.
Detroit. Maybe cobble together the flotsam of their various draft misfires and consolidate them in a player that won't do much to hurt their tank. You have to pay someone?
Utah: I am sure that Ainge sees through Lavine but, man, that backcourt is rough.
Escape hatch teams: Brooklyn / Atlanta / Denver.
Get rid of Simmons, Young or Porter if you do not think it will work long term. Of those, I only see Simmons as likely.
Young, arrow pointing uppish, so why screw it up?: Houston, Orlando, Indiana, Portland, San Antonio, Memphis.
Of these, I could maybe see Orlando consolidating that SG salary shot in one veteran player (Zach for Fultz + Harris?). But they are 2nd in the east and are on an 8 game win streak. Why trade for a losing player?
Portland could also consolidate but I think they can do such much more effectively with another trade partner.
Actual teams, so why would they do this, but maybe?: Knicks, Miami, Mavericks, Kings, Lakers, Warriors.
This is where Klutch wants us to think there is smoke. But they became actual teams by properly evaluating talent. And I think that they are all made worse by Lavine. Of these, I only see the Lakers as likely because they can do weird shit from time to time.
Age of consent insurance: OKC
Giddey may actually go to prison. And they have a ton of expiring contracts from their various wheelings and dealings. We can trade for Rudy Gay!
Hayward is an easy trade, but I'd think small market CHO would want it to expire to make room to pay Miles Bridges. Rozier, Bouknight, Richards works.
OKC has like no expirings. Bertans has a partial guarantee for next year and Micic/Poku don't play, but all that only adds up to 30M.
Best trade for bulls is ORL Isaac/Harris/Ingles for Zach, but that vet bench is partially why they are having success. Fultz+Harris is only 30M, so would need to add Okeke and our pick Jett Howard.
DeRozan makes more sense for both OKC and ORL.
It's funny how opinion shifts. For a while Simmons was considered vastly superior to Zach, then vastly inferior, and now maybe it's a coin flip. Trae Young used to be considered vastly inferior, but now superior to Zach. Zach really needs a shrink or a life coach or something because the gap between his mental and physical is probably wider than any player in the league. If only he could learn to put the needs of the team before his own. Too bad youth is wasted on the young.
Simmons is beyond a bad contract it's dead money. He's out with some nebulous back injury and even when playing this year refuses to shoot the ball. So I'd take him only if it was to move off Vuc
So Vuc and Ball for Simmons? Might be dead money, but we ARE tanking and his contract is two whole years shorter than Zac's. Really hoping Bulls can get more than that, but it would save the Dorfs $100M!!!
Charlotte is under new ownership so probably content with not committing to a max contract at least this season. Also LaMelo hurt his ankle again so they're DOA regardless
Ya, Vuc sucks...in all ways shapes and forms. I'm all serious though, give DDR a post up on every possession. Set screens to get him a good matchup, and let him rock. He's a good.passer too so you could run some action on the backside.to.give home some passing options. Make it like when Thibs ran everything through Noah. And play PAW and Caruso a ton so we have defense.
I keep revising my list of top FO missteps and can't decide which was worse: the trade for Vuc or his extension? The trade wads so horribly lopsided that it might go down as the worst trade in franchise history, but the extension was doubling down on that terrible mistake which might make it worse.
What about not trading Zach when he had positive value?
Or Demar! Or Caruso (they can still get something for him)!
It was clear this was going nowhere a year ago. Cash in when Demar is coming off an all-NBA season!
I think it was the extension, but hear me out. The trade itself delivered immediate negative dividends. Right after he was traded here, a basically .500 team lost 4 in a row, won 3, then lost 5, including getting destroyed by a Magic squad that had pretty much traded away not just Vucevic but most of their rotation. They played themselves right out of the fringe playoff seed they were aiming at.
The sugar rush of Art Karni actually making not one but TWO trades and then the summer frenzy of MULTIPLE SIGNINGS kind of made everyone overlook this! Like immediately, it did not work. Watching it, it wasn't hard to see it did not work, and why. And everything for the last 2 more years has been a video record of it not working and why it is not working.
And then they extended him.
I definitely think it was the extension. I didn't hate the trade, it was an overpay but at least showed they were trying. The extension and the idea of running it back with the Lonzo excuse for the third year was just embarrassing.
I did not "hate" the trade because I am a BaB poster and have rightfully earned a reputation as a pessimist and hater and wanted to be positive for once. But you know what? We were right! The only mistake I made was pretending to be lukewarm about the trade and positive about the Bulls future in spite of all of my misgivings. I will never make that mistake again! The haters are right! We are all going to die!
lol. like I said, I definitely get the criticism... but the real failure of the trade was NOT trading his expiring contract after the experiment failed! And maybe that's why the haters were right. you all knew that giving him a ludicrous extension was an inevitability.
I wanted to give AKME credit for choking up on the bat and swinging hard with the initial trade, so it was the Vucivec extension that was the complete sleep of death moment for me. As Gran points out, anyone watching Vooch, Zach and DDR share the floor saw this, the numbers bore it out. This trio has been a panopticon of misery from jump street. And AKME has chosen to sink into it, for reasons I simply can't understand.
Yep exactly, while chalking it up to Lonzo's absence but not actually trying to replace him.
Yup. The trade was aggressive. We hadn't seen that since... ? The extension was the opposite of aggressive -- maintain the status quo even when the status quo is pointless.
An underrated one was sitting on their hands at the start.
They took months to fire Boylen. Boylen!
And then they did nothing the first off-season because they wanted to "see what they had" (if I am remembering correctly).
You know how you can see what you have? By doing in-league scouting during your last half-decade plus in the league. Surprised he was not aware of this.
He can control much more than playing time. Most coaches in this league are worthless, and Donovan is one of them.
What a great thing Utah has done for us the last year and a half. Before, every time you tried to argue that a team should be more imaginative offensively, you'd search for examples in the league, and every one you found would be a talented team. So wags could say "It's not imagination. It's talent."
But now we have Utah. A team with possibly the least talented perimeter corps in a league that's dominated offensively by perimeter skill. And they're 15th in offense. Give them Mike Conley (i.e. an average starting point guard) and they're top 10. Bulls were 22nd in offense last year. They're 26th this year. But you watch Utah, and even if you're like me and you don't know shit about designing an offense, you still know you're watching something different. And that's not talent, it's not that Utah's guys are geniuses. It's just what good coaching actually looks like.
Or the 76ers with Nurse vs Doc
I think coaches are much like middle management in lots of places. I bet most of them could do what Hardy and Nurse are doing if they were given the green light to do it.
Those guys both got a very clear "do whatever works" message.
I think a lot of guys, and Donovan is one of them, get a "do whatever keeps everyone happy" message.
But who's going to be most embarrassed by Donovan benching Vuc? AKME.
The good news is the team checking out in the first ~7 games has allowed me to feel no guilt about checking out myself. I am no longer disappointed when I check the score. I expect blowouts, and they deliver. At least we have an inevitable(?) trade or two to look forward to. What could go wrong?
We will trade Caruso for nothing and the FO will spin like we owed him a solid.
If the offseason strategy of playing through Vuc more actually "worked" this season, the likely ceiling of this team is still only about 42 wins. That's the Mid 3 playing well together; 42 wins. Given that it has all fallen apart in glorious fashion, how are we not the happiest fan base in the league? Vuc should be mailed a trophy from BaB. And Donovan, as always, is irrelevant and has little actual bearing on if this team caps out at 42 or collapses into 30. I think Donovan comes back next year if he wants; you'd be a fool to dream otherwise given this ownership group. If we won 42, nothing would change. Since we're catastrophically failing sooner than expected, is this not cause for celebration? I'm enjoying this season much more than last so far, change is on the way! It will probably still result in sucking, but it's better than status quo
I'm not sure I'm following this logic. Can we not simultaneously be happy that this season is crumbling while also being upset at the front office for not trading away their mismatched pieces while they still had value?
Like I'd much rather be one of the worst teams in the league because we're playing a bunch of unpolished young guys with draft picks and cap space to spare instead of being one of the worst teams in the league because our three overpaid/over-the-hill "stars" have given up on this team.
Your batting a lot of straw men there.
My point is no one around here sounds happy, when we should be. It is rather the tone of endless consternation over Vuc and Billy. That's the point. If anything we should all be thanking these guys for their roles as accelerationists if they really had as much impact as these articles purport ( which I don't think they do). Regardless, why the negativity. We're getting the best possible result this season
Not having been born yesterday may be informing these emotional responses. This franchise doesn't do anything well. No reason to think they'd ace a rebuild any more than they've aced anything else. Is tearing it down the right move? Probably. But no reason to feel happy about it, as drafting a guy who ends up winning an MVP is the only move they've ever made that works. Good luck with that.
Oh c'mon Moon cry me a river. Are you guys really going to sit around and moan this entire rebuild? What a sad excuse for a fan base. At least suspend disbelief and look to at least luck into good trades and draft picks. We've known this team wasn't going anywhere since the end of the season stretch in 2021, and we finally get to the point where we rebuild, and you guys all want to sit around and make variations of the same sob stories. Seriously what is the point in even being a fan then?
You should have at least cited the original, unpublished Jim Boylen speech you lifted this from.
To be fair, BaB is known for being incredibly negative. Not sure why you'd expect anything else.
Negative, yes. But he used to be creative. And I'm known for being negative as well. Which is why I've been saying AK and Donovan sucked since the end of the 2021 season after Deebo came down from God mode and we all saw reality of this squad. But this is not the time for sitting around talking about Vuc and Billy... Find some hopeful things to talk about in a rebuild. We're at the most exciting part, right before it all happens, anything could happen. Even KC is righting articles now about how the season is based on trade returns. So yes, Yfbb used to write cynical and sarcastic, but also creative articles. Now it's just flip a coin on whether you want to blame Vuc or Billy in this article. Which apparently must be what everyone wants otherwise why would he decide to write them? Maybe I'm the idiot, choosing to try and enjoy this rebuild
Nah, I get where you're coming from. I've stated on here that I've actually been enjoying this season as we're watching this team implode because it means change will eventually come.
I'm not sure I'd say I'm excited for that change because I don't exactly trust AK to do a good job, but it's at least better than watching this team win 40ish games every year.
I listened to the latest cash considerations yesterday. Now that was depressing... Makes BaB sound rosy in comparison
I love me some CC so look forward to it.... I mean seriously we can all go back to the last month of 2021 season, and guys like Doug Thonus and Ricky O'Donnell knew this team was a fraud. A minority, but signifcant number none the less, of BaB commenters knew it as well. Nothing new has really happened since the end of that season, it's just been waiting for the reset. All fans in variations of the 5 stages of grieving.
This is the best era of Bulls since then. There's hope; it may be slim, but it's better than the devil we knew. If anyone here thinks Vuc and Billy are the main culprits, while simultaneously thinking the team needs a reset, well then what are you waiting for? Start carving trophy's out of the finest mohagony and send them to Vuc and Billy as appreciation. Why on earth would such a person complain about them if they truly thought they were the main problems AND that the team needs a reset?
The only thing to enjoy about the rebuild is to see how bad the bulls will botch it. Is there a team with less young talent than the bulls?
The ONLY scenario that gets me to respect Donovan again: this is intentional sabotage from the inside which leads to the firing of AKME and Reinsdorf installing better leadership. In that case Donovan should still be let go but I would thank him for his services.
I like the MikeDC idea of promoting Donovan to executive so they don't have to terminate his contract
Ah, the old Elaine Benes special. Promote the problem away.
and tic tacs
The problem is that making Donovan Prince Billy of Rogers Park may infringe upon the jurisdiction and privileges of Archduke Paxson of Glenview.
They get a buddy to chew gum with.
The John Paxson Chair
Of course Billy is coaching for his next job not this one. He knows he doesn't have the authority to succeed (see what happened when he benched Zach) nor a FO that will build a logical roster, so he's looking to the future.
Billy's future job isn't on another team, though. It's under a different GM. Just like all of us, he knows AK has botched it and has not gotten him a PG when the team has needed one for a couple years now. AK is on his way out the door (end of the year, maybe?) and Billy is just struggling through like everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love for AK to get canned. I just don't see it. That hasn't been Jerry's MO for decades. Why would it change now?
Some actual rumor-ing from KC Johnson:
>"league sources said that, at least for now, Karnišovas is responding to inquiries on other players by saying he wants to see what the roster looks like post-LaVine trade first."
https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/bulls-analysis/trade-returns-not-won-loss-record-will-define-bulls-lost-season/522123/
But then KC doesn't correctly editorialize off this information. Saying "with Karnišovas’ admission that he sees what everyone sees, change is coming", when that sourced information and AK's entire history suggesting otherwise: that part of AK's entire "doesn't know what he's doing" job performance includes NOT seeing what everyone is seeing, whether he says he does or not.
But more important thing is that rumor. It indicates a LaVine trade could be happening in advance of the Lakers-or-bust deadline of January 15.
if we're to believe league sources in that AK wants a Zach trade soon, then have to not cater to Klutch and try to find another team just as desperate as you are.
That's the Pistons. We've talked about it here before, but think while more desperate after each loss I don't think they'd part with Ivey.
So I'm thinking a trade where you get less attractive assets, but still some:
Zach+Dalen (for tax reasons)
for
Burks+Harris+Wiseman+Sasser+1 protected first + 2 seconds
This is a win-win in that both teams get closer to 30 wins. I think the Bulls would actually look better replacing Zach's minutes with Burks and more Coby+Carter+Ayo+Harris to fill in the rest.
Of course I'd like to send Vuc out too but he's on a negative value contract already and don't want to use LaVine or other assets just to move his money off. Can improve the on-court squad simply by playing him less. I'm sure Wiseman sucks but at least you get a look before free agency. Drummond will likely be a dump at the deadline to get more safely under the tax.
Then, and I don't think this is the best idea, but what AK may be thinking, you get a look at a post-LaVine roster and a couple more assets and can pivot off of that information instead of trading everyone for little just to get a better pick this season.
Surely if we include Dalen we could then have Ivey!
ick. This is a middling as it gets. I'd rather wait if this is the best deal on offer.
Fair. I'm not sure another team offers either better assets or more salary relief. Detroit is well under the tax so they can better 'absorb' Zach. There's SOME harm in waiting bc ::gestures towards the current team:: but not much. Burks is good, assuming Bulls still selling at deadline can flip him.
I started thinking this out and it seems like about the most reasonable option.
I think given the large number of middling contracts they have, they can absorb Vuc as well. Further, I think they'd probably do that before they included Sasser, who looks like a good player.
My objective would be:
1. Get Jaden Hardy + 1 future 1st.
2. Get them to take back Vuc for Wisemen and Bagley. I'm going to say this quietly, but Bagley has not been completely terrible this year. He's a better, younger player on a better contract than Vuc.
3. Get a couple of seconds, DET has several to give.
Trade is Zach, Vuc, Terry for Hardy, Wiseman, Bagley, Joe Harris and a FRP that conveys as soon as Detroit settles its current obligation to NYK (likely not until 2026, but possibly not until 2028.
Will Detroit?
1- Cade/Sasser
2- Zach, Burks
3- Bojan, Knox
4- Stewart, Livers
5- Duren, Vuc
That's... well, it's better than what they've got now. It's honestly not terrible if they're trying to be respectable.
1/2 Defender- Caruso, Ayo
1/2 Shooter- Coby, Hardy, Carter
3- DeMar
4- Pat, Craig
5- Bagley, Drummond, Wiseman
The other team I can imagine actually having interest in Zach is the Raptors, but I still can't figure a good trade out for us. They likely can't give a pick before 2026 either, and their pick is likely to be worse than any Detroit pick. I don't think they'd have any interest in taking back Vuc, and I don't think they have any player like Hardy who's at least a moderately intriguing prospect. OG or Siakam would have to be turned around and swapped again, or maybe AKME would foolishly want to keep them, I don't know. I liked Gradey Dick as a prospect, but he's been pretty trash so far. So I think the Pistons offer would be better.
Obviously, Zach might not want to go to the Pistons, but I think this is where the Bulls need to hold firm and point out that we don't always get what we want, and he'll at least be wanted there.
call it in, except you mean Jaden Ivey, not Jaden Hardy (Mavs)
> for now
lol drink!
The "wait and see" part is what kills me. It's like he doesn't understand that roster construction isn't a self-driving exercise.
Again, this is the guy that needed to waste his first off-season evaluating the players after taking this job. Video exists. Statistics exist. You have been in the league for years. In-league scouting exists. If you "wait and see" this means that you have not prepared and do not mind ceding the initiative to the competition.
I think it's just cynical bullshit used to sell "rebuilding" to fans.
Actually, I think "rebuilding" itself is cynical bullshit used to sell being cheap to fans.
Yeah I'm not looking forward to smarmy 'you all wanted a rebuild, didn't you?!?' takes
"Look, you said you wanted a rebuild. If you wanted a good rebuild, you should have ordered that! Caveat emperor."
The NBA really needs non-guaranteed contracts for all players/coaches/front office people! The basketball played would be so much better (or maybe everyone would move to the Chinese league???)
take a bao
Billy can quit any time he wants, it just means he won't get his money.
Apparently Skiles thought he would get fired in Milwaukee and was cleaning out his office cheerfully thinking about what he would do with all that free cash when they informed him that they were not firing him and he'd have to quit, which would forfeit his nest egg. And he began unpacking again.
Jerry? Is that you?
Well, at least Billy can get into ASMR if the coaching thing doesn't work out. Yfbb tried to warn us, but I wasn't ready!!
sucks to your ASMR
What an incredibly weird place to find a Lord of the Flies reference. Bravo
I'm no expert but guys on defense are supposed to move, right?
Depends on the scheme!
Good game by Patrick, btw. I continue to be happy with what I've seen from him defensively since like January of '23, when something clicked and he started figuring out how NBA basketball actually works. Hope the shots continue going down at a decent clip, because this team needs both him and Caruso to play good minutes to have a prayer of defending anyone.
his off-ball awareness is still really poor but unlike LaVine he can say 'actually I'm good on the ball' and it's true
I will say, last night was the best he looked off-ball (on offense) in a long time. He had several good back cuts and some nice offensive rebounds/tips. Not saying it was amazing by means since the bar is incredibly low, but it was still positive. He had a few minutes in the second quarter where he was literally the only Bull trying on either side of the court.
I think a big part of that is because this team sucks at passing and the coach sucks too. His off-ball offense literally has never looked better than it did his rookie year when Thad was doing his weird Draymond impression and Patrick was making very Miami-esque dive cuts toward the basket off Thad's gravity in the middle.
I think there's a world where Pat actually becomes a really good player, but he REALLY needs to work on his handles for that to happen.
I do think there's still a chance for it to happen. Just not sure what universe that is yet though lol.
The one that involves him no longer living in Chicago would be my assumption.
I'm not big into galaxy-brain takes but misuse of Pat and suppressing his free agency market may work out for the Bulls in the long run
That could happen, but I think the more likely good path is he continues to improve on the things he has already done well: defense and shooting.
I noticed this last year, but his intersection of shooting accuracy and shot blocking is really unique. Patrick finished last season tied for 33rd in the NBA in FT%. Of the players in the top 40 in this stat, only Durant, Embiid, and Porzingis had a higher BLK%. Similarly, Patrick was 16th in the league in 3pt%. Of the players in the top 30 in this stat, no one had a higher BLK% than Patrick.
So to me, the most likely really good outcome is that he continues to deepen his defensive understanding and activity level as a helper, and incrementally builds out his ability to shoot for volume in addition to accuracy. But development is weird and unpredictable. So who really knows.
His peak will come two or three teams from now.
I'm shooting in the dark here, but I kind of think his handles (or lack of handles) may be directly affected by his confidence. There are times where his handles look more than passable for a 3/4 but then there are also times where it looks like he's never dribbled a basketball in his life.
Alright, I'm going to riff on development here. Feel free to ignore me, sometimes you just have to commit things to writing.
I've become a "flashes" guy. I didn't used to be, but among other things, my experiences with young people at my work has changed my mind. My old attitude was "the meaning of being good is consistency, so why should I credit these flashes for a player's development?" I don't think that anymore. Partially, I do now think there is something to the idea that if you can do it once, or a few times, then you can do it regularly. Can, not will.
But I think the flashes matter even more for the process of role formation. Previously I never gave enough thought to how many young players have no good answer to a question like "if you're successful in the NBA, what will that look like?" These guys have basically only ever been awesome, so they have little frame of reference for the problems they're facing now. And they're having to address this novelty, largely it seems by themselves, at age 20. That sounds really fuckin hard!
I think flashes can give players a concrete representation of what being successful in the NBA might look like. Do you know the best game Lauri played prior to the Jazz? It sounds dumb, but I swear there is a right answer to this question lol.
October 23, 2019. Bulls lose by 1 in Charlotte. Lauri goes 1/7 from three and was -8 for the game. It's the best game he played until last year. He was so big and fast and athletic and relentless on the basket. It was the first game I ever saw of his that made me understand him as a prospect. In hindsight, this was important. He plays like this twice a week now.
I'm rambling because "confidence" is kind of a catch-all term. And often I think lack of confidence is less directly about the player's attitude towards their ability, and more about not having a good answer to the question "how can I achieve individual success while also fitting in?" I think Patrick, like a ton of other young guys, is still working this out. As I said above, I don't he even began figuring out how NBA basketball works until like January of last year, when things started clicking for him defensively.
I agree with you. That's why it's so important for a team to be able to develop young players. Some teams are great at it and some are terrible at it. The Bulls fall into the latter group, unfortunately.
Earlier this year yfbb said the Bulls basically don't believe in development. I forgot if it was AK or Eversley, but whoever it was said something like "that's on the player". Obviously that is a fireable offense. But I also think whoever said that should have to go to jail. Nothing crazy, just like a week. But yes, they should be imprisoned.
I am curious what AK and ME were told their jobs responsibilities were going to be when they accepted these positions...
i don't see him ever being a plus ballhandler. He still has potential to be a solid 3 and D wing but he's never going to be a guy who get his own points or is gonna break anyone down off the dribble. All the ballhandling that we get teased in those offseason vids where he is breaking randoms off the bounce in some LA Fitness are just a mirage. He couldn't even get by 50 year old Al Horford. All the fancy looking shit he does is just fluff, none of that shit will work against NBA defenders
on the right team, he could be a 14/6 player that gives B+ defense....just won't be here.
He would be a good fit on OKC honestly...they need some wing sized defenders over there. i could see them giving up a late 1st for him
A late first lol? gtfoh.
i’ve always considered the front office mandate to be “field a competitive team, aim for the Everybody Gets In playoffs and postseason gate revenue. otherwise a bad team yields the chance for a young, cost-controlled star.”
i think being mediocre has always been an acceptable outcome. it leads to wishy washy evaluations that AK has become famous for. i think the one no-no on the list of mandates is “do not be so bad that it becomes a headline,” and currently, that is being violated. do i think it will lead to expeditious changes? no, but changes nonetheless (eventually)
Yes, there was a time when Jerry's model was the boom/bust cycle: you pay more when your team is good and then reap a larger profit after you wave the white flag and blow it up. Fortunately/unfortunately, the NBA has raised the payroll floor high enough that you can't simply bank $30 or $40 million by filling your roster with 2nd round draft picks and whatever the hell Dedrick Willoughby was. It's 90% of the salary cap. Hard to squeeze big bucks from that, even over several years.
I think it's a very easy sell to tell Jerry he should gamble on a playoff team and a 1st round exit. Last season was PERFECT except for the final quarter of the Miami play-in. You're right on the edge of getting 2 or 3 games of home playoff revenue. Likely very easy to tell him that repeating everything his team probably holds their lead this time. Not a horrid gamble all things considered, and when the stakes are that low.
If Jerry has a burner here he's probably as pissed off by the same things most of us are. Let's say they let Vucevic walk, they sign Christian Wood to Jevon Carter's contract and everything else is the same. They'd be down in the bottom rung of salaries without Vucevic's $20 million and it's hard to imagine they'd be any worse, even with Wood playing at his worst.
Honestly, being also-ran is a pretty acceptable outcome if the team is, like, actually fun to watch. There are a bunch of fun 45 win teams in the league, and I watch their shit all the time, it's entertaining as hell. To me, the promise of the Lonzo era was less "hey, this could be a conference finalist" and more "this team stands a chance of rewarding your decision to watch it".
Donovan needs to fix these things immediately:
- Play Caruso more! He has the most impact on the floor of any Bulls player. I get that you can't have a team full of Caruso's, but he has such an impact, that he needs to be out there more. Every, single advanced metric has him as our most impactful player (I checked EPM, RAPTOR...last season, and DPM). He needs to be out on the floor, and he needs to start.
- The Bulls use the pick and roll WAY too much for a team with a bunch of crappy point guards. The Bulls generate offense from PnR handler shots 20.6% of the time and put up .9 points per possession on those attempts. That 20.6% is second highest in the league. The Bucks (who have two...arguably three players) who play well out of the pick and roll only get shots 16.9% of the time (but they average 1.09 ppp). The Bulls use the roll man 2nd highest in frequency and are 3rd from the bottom in ppp on those attempts. In short, they use pick and rolls the most or close to it in the league even though their effeciency on those plays BLOWS!
- What plays are the Bulls good at? Well...
DDR gets 1.10 ppp on post ups, but he only gets 2.2 per game. If he's going to be out there, set screens for him to get in a post up opportunity and let him work. Vuc gets 2.9 post ups per game and gets 0.73 ppp. Give all of those to DDR. Vuc sucks.
LaVine only gets 1.00 ppp off screens, but I think part of it is that his frequency is so dang low at less than once per game. He should get more of chance there....again, if you play him...which you shouldn't do as much...because you should trade him...now
Caruso is a solid transition and spot up player, so again, play him more.
- Last, the Bulls need easy ways to score. IMO, the Bulls should focus on rebounding, including offensive rebounding. Play Torrey Craig more and play Drummond more (this more because Vuc sucks) and crash the glass on both ends more.
- Ok, one more. Sit your damn point guards down. They suck anyway. Play Caruso, LaVine, DDR, PAW, and Vuc to start. Get DDR some post up opportunities on offense, play aggressive defense, and crash the glass a bit more. Then, trade Vuc and LaVine because Vuc sucks, and you might get something decent for LaVine.
Orienting the offense around DDR post ups is a good idea that Vuc will de facto veto on account of not shooting enough and making enough shots and being a pouty oaf.
OR, stop playing Caruso altogether. He is our best asset and gets hurt approximaltey once per three games. You're playing with fire putting him on the court right now to lose by 8 instead of 18.
I'm fine if you want to trade him. But if you are not going to, you need to play him. Don't play him because we'll lose anyway is dumb strategy, unless you are going to trade him. I'm not saying play him 48 minutes, just play him more.
In regards to Caruso's health, I think the position he's playing is likely as important, if not more so, than the amount of minutes he plays. He's primarily played this season as a PF, whether that was off the bench or as a starter. Caruso gets hurt because he's constantly trying to guard guys who are way bigger than he is.
They are going to trade him. That's the point. Keep him healthy before he is dealt.
They need to either bench or trade Vuc to make this work. And I don't think AKME will allow him to be benched.
And it'd going to be hard to trade him on that garbage contract.
This. In that video yfbb linked, Joe Cowley asked Billy about benching his players and Billy basically said it wasn't going to happen. The only way we trade Vooch is to a team that's willing to take on a bad contract. If that's the case, we're not getting anything positive in return.
Yeah I didn't address this but you're probably right: another part of Billy playing the game for his career is his willingness to satisfy his bosses, which means not embarrassing the Double-Single Machine
Lavine may end up being dealt away before 15 Jan, since it now seems the Lakers (while having some interest in Lavine) are much more interested in Caruso and DDR.
Also Houston on the record saying they're not interested in Zach. At this point, who is anymore???
What would the waive and extend cost be? Haha
Why don't we actually go through this as it is a bit sobering about what kind of return we can actually get for him.
I looked through the salaries and was actually surprised at how many teams could actually cobble together 40 million. But, in contrast to the Bulls, most teams have a strategy and direction, so the question is if Lavine complements these things. Here is my list but feel free to chime in.
Actually likely teams:
Charlotte. This is the only other team in the league that seems to put "actually winning games" as a secondary component in their team-building strategy. This makes them a more likely Lavine destination. Hayward is an easy swap.
Detroit. Maybe cobble together the flotsam of their various draft misfires and consolidate them in a player that won't do much to hurt their tank. You have to pay someone?
Utah: I am sure that Ainge sees through Lavine but, man, that backcourt is rough.
Escape hatch teams: Brooklyn / Atlanta / Denver.
Get rid of Simmons, Young or Porter if you do not think it will work long term. Of those, I only see Simmons as likely.
Young, arrow pointing uppish, so why screw it up?: Houston, Orlando, Indiana, Portland, San Antonio, Memphis.
Of these, I could maybe see Orlando consolidating that SG salary shot in one veteran player (Zach for Fultz + Harris?). But they are 2nd in the east and are on an 8 game win streak. Why trade for a losing player?
Portland could also consolidate but I think they can do such much more effectively with another trade partner.
Actual teams, so why would they do this, but maybe?: Knicks, Miami, Mavericks, Kings, Lakers, Warriors.
This is where Klutch wants us to think there is smoke. But they became actual teams by properly evaluating talent. And I think that they are all made worse by Lavine. Of these, I only see the Lakers as likely because they can do weird shit from time to time.
Age of consent insurance: OKC
Giddey may actually go to prison. And they have a ton of expiring contracts from their various wheelings and dealings. We can trade for Rudy Gay!
Wild card: Toronto
And that's it.
Hayward is an easy trade, but I'd think small market CHO would want it to expire to make room to pay Miles Bridges. Rozier, Bouknight, Richards works.
OKC has like no expirings. Bertans has a partial guarantee for next year and Micic/Poku don't play, but all that only adds up to 30M.
Best trade for bulls is ORL Isaac/Harris/Ingles for Zach, but that vet bench is partially why they are having success. Fultz+Harris is only 30M, so would need to add Okeke and our pick Jett Howard.
DeRozan makes more sense for both OKC and ORL.
It's funny how opinion shifts. For a while Simmons was considered vastly superior to Zach, then vastly inferior, and now maybe it's a coin flip. Trae Young used to be considered vastly inferior, but now superior to Zach. Zach really needs a shrink or a life coach or something because the gap between his mental and physical is probably wider than any player in the league. If only he could learn to put the needs of the team before his own. Too bad youth is wasted on the young.
Simmons is beyond a bad contract it's dead money. He's out with some nebulous back injury and even when playing this year refuses to shoot the ball. So I'd take him only if it was to move off Vuc
So Vuc and Ball for Simmons? Might be dead money, but we ARE tanking and his contract is two whole years shorter than Zac's. Really hoping Bulls can get more than that, but it would save the Dorfs $100M!!!
Ball they'll be able to get out of entirely next season, they're not trading that voucher
Charlotte is under new ownership so probably content with not committing to a max contract at least this season. Also LaMelo hurt his ankle again so they're DOA regardless
Ya, Vuc sucks...in all ways shapes and forms. I'm all serious though, give DDR a post up on every possession. Set screens to get him a good matchup, and let him rock. He's a good.passer too so you could run some action on the backside.to.give home some passing options. Make it like when Thibs ran everything through Noah. And play PAW and Caruso a ton so we have defense.
Ugh, reply fail...
yes but I am intrigued by the possibilities of this "backside,to" site you are linking to.
Tongan singles are waiting for you just a click away....
"Donovan applies this to everyone who’s a veteran, from non-stars like LaVine and DeRozan, to role players like Vucevic"
Absolute perfection.