What are the league rules on coming to a gentleman's agreement on a trade before the specific trade is allowed, but at a time where trading is allowed?
I'm guessing it's legal, but if not I'm imagining a scenario where the league declares there was tampering. The Bulls would lose another 2nd Round Pick and the Lakers would be punished by having the trade enforced.
tough to think why league would get involved when nobody is harmed
I suppose a 3rd team could cry foul that Bulls and LaVine/Klutch/Lakers are conspiring to make injury seem worse than it is, but that'd be pretty hard to prove
I was thinking back to the Lonzo deal. IIRC, the only problem was it was announced a few minutes early. Otherwise, it was exactly the same as what everyone else does.
I'm thinking Caruso is part of the deal, considering earlier comments about the Lakers having even more interest in him than Lavine. Which would mean yes, definitely Reaves would have to be a part of that deal too. And a pick.
I don't know, I don't mind that. I just don't see a terribly frothy market for these guys. Seems like everyone has either made a big play or is saving themselves for a big play in the future. And these two aren't it.
The pick is useful per se and as a trade piece. And more importantly, Reaves is a good and fun-to-watch player right now who still has room to improve. They can keep him and that's cool. They can trade him and that could be fine as well, depending on the circumstances.
Caruso and Lavine for Reaves makes no sense for the Bulls. They can get more for Caruso on the open market. Lavine's not that terrible of a contract and he still has upside. I'm not attaching something valuable to get a pick five years from now.
For his sake, I'd love to see some deal to get Caruso to the Timberwolves. They already have the best defense in the lague and Caruso would just make it even better. Plus it would put him in a position to win another championship.
Not sure who we could get back that would make it worthwhile to the Bulls, but I'd be curious to hear ideas.
I agree, but I like the idea of him going to the best defensive team in the league because I love seeing great defense. He gives his all to the team and I wouldn't want to ship him off to a shit tier org as repayment for that effort.
I doubt that the Lakers would trade Reaves as part of a package for any one or more Chicago players. He seems highly valued by both the organization and LeBron. The Lakers could use shooting but I'd be stunned if they gave up Reaves for LaVine.
Very few teams could put together a roster where the top 3 players make a combined > $120 million. The Lakers have historically had the ability to do that, but I think people are really taking for granted that contracts like Reeves are like a payroll hack. The average NBA salary is $11 million. Reeves makes $12 million, and is locked up until 2026/27. The NBA is about paying for buckets and Reeves (like Mikal Bridges and several others) enable you to pay so little per bucket they produce that it's almost cheating.
So he has a massive value to high payroll/multi-max teams like the Lakers, or the Clips, or the Suns, etc. that is almost totally wasted for a small market team like Chicago.
None of it makes sense for either team. Would make more sense for Chicago to then trade him, I guess, or just bank the dollars they save (which they are wont to do). For the Lakers this is very much trading away a massive advantage.
The Lakers had an incredible off-season (really 18 months), they found contributors all over the place including some they aren't even using. Signing Reeves to a long-term, cheap contract was a huge part of that.
as much as I still think maxing Zach was an acceptable course of action, the cries of "the cap is going up he'll be more valuable!" are looking to be not exactly true, because though the tax lines are going up the penalties are harsher
Yeah, for the first time the penalties are expanding beyond merely financial to serious roster restrictions. I'm sort of surprised at what Phoenix was able to add this off-season but every summer just adding a couple of top level backups is going to be like Thornton Mellon hitting several Triple Lindys in a row. When they were in the finals in 2021 they had Bridges, Ayton and Johnson all on rookie contracts — 2 starters and 3 of their top 9 players. How do they add those guys now? For a team that's basically a scoring machine, they're very thin and very injury prone and very susceptible to a younger, faster team running them out of the playoffs.
Rui isnt good. He was middling as hell in Washington and honestly has been middling in LA outside of having some good games in last year's playoffs. Not much of a defender, inconsistent shooter
Aside from the Bulls return here, which I liked MikeDC's angle by pursuing only Lakers assets that you can then flip into picks/ young players...
For the Lakers I kind of like the idea of Lebron, AD, Zach in the playoffs. Zach would clearly know he is the 3rd option spot up shooter/ slasher, and that would be about the only environment for him to mature into a useful championship piece. Zach needs some dudes like LBJ and AD to show him his place, maybe LeBron could force him to study game film on opponents as well... I don't want Zach anywhere near my team but I'd be happy for him on the Lakers
Negativity is palpable around BaB! Bulls suck, Lakers suck, Zach sucks, .... Lakers are always going to attract talent. And they appear to have a decent GM. They're one of the very few destination teams in the league along with the Heat
That's cool I get it, I was never a Lavine guy so it doesn't matter too much to me either way but (and I'm a broken record here) I always thought Lavines best role was as a Celtics Ray Allen guy. Which means you need a Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce, and AD makes a good Kevin Garnett if healthy. LeBron is obviously better than Pierce. I think it's a perfect situation for Zach, and will be interested if they can scrap enough around them to make a run. They seemed competitive in the West playoffs last season without Zach
I agree with this. Assuming Zach will buy into being the third option, obviously. If he does, I think he will easily look like the best player he's ever been when he's basically a glorified Ray Allen, Klay Thompson.
That's a perfect situation for the ideal Zach, not for the actual Zach. Whether he can learn and change at 29 years old remains to be seen I guess. His latest comments about his 'delight' at the team's 3-game winning streak and how 'we're' finally playing how we were supposed to and learned in training camp and preseason are not very comforting in that regard. He was the main reason that new philosophy didn't eventuate on the court since the start of the regular season.
Zach's a beta, not an alpha. Just like Ray Allen was. He's also not an ego-maniac, so he'll welcome playing in the biggest limelight in the league without the pressure of being the first or second options. I think he fits in well with their team, and the only way he fails there is if he completely loses confidence in himself or gets injured. He'll be like a better JR Smith. LeBron will know how to use him. Just my opinion
DLo is for sure, although my hope is maybe they'd trade him for whatever they can get at the deadline. Hachimura's contract is manageable enough and he's young enough that it doesn't seem too bad. He seems like a decent player. The big question will be if he can stay healthy.
He’s a low efficiency long two point jumper chucker who doesn’t defend, hit 3’s or rebound and he always has been that except for the Lakers playoff run.
He is hitting over 40% on 3s this year so far this year, though ideally at 25 years old by now you'd want his volume up more like 6 per36. I do somewhat share your dim view of his defense. Literally the best defensive role he's ever inhabited was "Jokic speed bump".
But a 6'8'' guy who can hit shots and defend a couple of positions without getting targeted is a useful player. He showed last year he could be playable for 3 playoff rounds. Doesn't he make like 15M a year or so? That seems like fair value.
It is absolutely Lakers/Lebron inflation. He's also shooting that 40% on extremely low sample size. He's a career 35% shooter with an almost 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. I think he's a net negative and would be bummed if the Bulls pointed to him as something of value in a trade. He's salary filler.
Exactly. The Wiz were willing to take literally anything to dump Rui and now he might be traded for the Bulls' best player? A trade with the Lakers (even if we get Reaves) blows for the Bulls.
>"The Lakers want to see what they really have before wading into trade talks, league sources say. The sense around the league is that the Lakers are wary of boosting their weak half (offense) at the expense of their defense (and their cap sheet) in any potential LaVine deals. It's early yet. The price for LaVine will matter for the Lakers if they show any real interest in him. So will how the Lakers perform in the interim, and who else might be gettable; the Lakers have only one future first-round pick left to trade. But the Lakers aren't satisfied with a puncher's chance at reaching the conference finals again."
FWIW, here's the Lakers rotation now: They're 23rd in offense a 8th in defense.
1- DLo 36, Reaves 12 Vincent (Injured)
2- Reddish 18, Reaves 18, Christie 12
3- Prince 30, Reddish 8, Hachimura 10
4- Lebron 33, Hachimura 15
5- Davis 32, Wood 16, Hayes
When I think it out, if I were the Lakers:
* I wouldn't actually want to trade DLo. He's a competent offensive player and a goodish shooter. He's playing a ton of minutes for them. I don't know how dispensable he is. Add Zach and remove him and do they really improve their offensive ability that much? Eh...
* I started out thinking Rui was more required, but he hasn't played all that much, and Lebron is going to take more of the minutes at the 4 anyway. Would they be much worse with Craig or any other waiver wire pickup? Nah...
* Reaves is youngish, but he's mostly in the minutes Zach would be taking. I don't really want Zach filling in backup PG minutes, but they can pick up someone in the buyout market probably.
So if I'm the Lakers, the offer I make is
Rui, Reaves, Vincent and JHS (practically a FRP... just not as good!) + whatever draft capital they can for Zach + Craig (and Terry Taylor if they want him. Otherwise we have to waive them).
After the trade, they are
1- DLo 36, ???
2- Zach 36, Christie 12
3- Prince 30, Reddish 18
4- Lebron 33, Craig 15
5- Davis 32, Wood 16, Hayes
Seems ok. I'm sure they'd like Caruso, but there's just no way I'd see anything they have as enough to get him.
I think all those guys are fine (except Vuc and Drummond) but once again they're really stacked up with a lot of good but not great options at the guard spots. I'd try to move off of Caruso and either Carter or Vincent quick. And Reaves or Rui if I could turn them into reasonable picks or younger players. I think there's options there because all of those guys are moveable, but they run a risk of having guys be worth less if they don't follow up the trade of LaVine with something else.
That's where I'd be looking hard at teams with interesting young players and picks and a desire to get better right now (Thunder, Rockets, Mavs, and also the Pistons?) and see if we can cash in for a more high potential guy or two.
They've got a ton of guys who basically do the same thing type of thing though (Suggs, Black, Gary Harris). Yeah, Caruso is better, but I don't think he's so much better that they'd want to trade much for Caruso given their current positioning.
I was thinking more about moving Reeves, Hachi, or someone for a pick. I do not know their roster at all. I just know they are having a good year and may want to seize the momentum.
Who would trade a pick for Rui? He gets paid $15.7, $17M and $18.2M this and the following two seasons. He is not good at basketball. He had a single decent run in the playoffs and the Lakers wildly overpaid him. I'd rather keep Zach than take on this bozo.
What are the league rules on coming to a gentleman's agreement on a trade before the specific trade is allowed, but at a time where trading is allowed?
I'm guessing it's legal, but if not I'm imagining a scenario where the league declares there was tampering. The Bulls would lose another 2nd Round Pick and the Lakers would be punished by having the trade enforced.
tough to think why league would get involved when nobody is harmed
I suppose a 3rd team could cry foul that Bulls and LaVine/Klutch/Lakers are conspiring to make injury seem worse than it is, but that'd be pretty hard to prove
I was thinking back to the Lonzo deal. IIRC, the only problem was it was announced a few minutes early. Otherwise, it was exactly the same as what everyone else does.
Lonzo was a free agent so that's a major difference
I'm thinking Caruso is part of the deal, considering earlier comments about the Lakers having even more interest in him than Lavine. Which would mean yes, definitely Reaves would have to be a part of that deal too. And a pick.
that's a horrible trade package if you're including Caruso...it'd mean that LaVine is a negative contract
Yep.
I mean...
I don't know, I don't mind that. I just don't see a terribly frothy market for these guys. Seems like everyone has either made a big play or is saving themselves for a big play in the future. And these two aren't it.
The pick is useful per se and as a trade piece. And more importantly, Reaves is a good and fun-to-watch player right now who still has room to improve. They can keep him and that's cool. They can trade him and that could be fine as well, depending on the circumstances.
Caruso and Lavine for Reaves makes no sense for the Bulls. They can get more for Caruso on the open market. Lavine's not that terrible of a contract and he still has upside. I'm not attaching something valuable to get a pick five years from now.
Caruso is a valuable trade piece. Which is why I think Chicago will do the super stupid thing and keep him.
For his sake, I'd love to see some deal to get Caruso to the Timberwolves. They already have the best defense in the lague and Caruso would just make it even better. Plus it would put him in a position to win another championship.
Not sure who we could get back that would make it worthwhile to the Bulls, but I'd be curious to hear ideas.
Naz Reid? Wasn't everyone saying we should sign him last summer instead of extending Vooch?
I'm less concerned about Caruso's future than I am the Bulls. I don't see the Wolves giving up anything of value to get him.
I agree, but I like the idea of him going to the best defensive team in the league because I love seeing great defense. He gives his all to the team and I wouldn't want to ship him off to a shit tier org as repayment for that effort.
I doubt that the Lakers would trade Reaves as part of a package for any one or more Chicago players. He seems highly valued by both the organization and LeBron. The Lakers could use shooting but I'd be stunned if they gave up Reaves for LaVine.
Very few teams could put together a roster where the top 3 players make a combined > $120 million. The Lakers have historically had the ability to do that, but I think people are really taking for granted that contracts like Reeves are like a payroll hack. The average NBA salary is $11 million. Reeves makes $12 million, and is locked up until 2026/27. The NBA is about paying for buckets and Reeves (like Mikal Bridges and several others) enable you to pay so little per bucket they produce that it's almost cheating.
So he has a massive value to high payroll/multi-max teams like the Lakers, or the Clips, or the Suns, etc. that is almost totally wasted for a small market team like Chicago.
None of it makes sense for either team. Would make more sense for Chicago to then trade him, I guess, or just bank the dollars they save (which they are wont to do). For the Lakers this is very much trading away a massive advantage.
The Lakers had an incredible off-season (really 18 months), they found contributors all over the place including some they aren't even using. Signing Reeves to a long-term, cheap contract was a huge part of that.
as much as I still think maxing Zach was an acceptable course of action, the cries of "the cap is going up he'll be more valuable!" are looking to be not exactly true, because though the tax lines are going up the penalties are harsher
Yeah, for the first time the penalties are expanding beyond merely financial to serious roster restrictions. I'm sort of surprised at what Phoenix was able to add this off-season but every summer just adding a couple of top level backups is going to be like Thornton Mellon hitting several Triple Lindys in a row. When they were in the finals in 2021 they had Bridges, Ayton and Johnson all on rookie contracts — 2 starters and 3 of their top 9 players. How do they add those guys now? For a team that's basically a scoring machine, they're very thin and very injury prone and very susceptible to a younger, faster team running them out of the playoffs.
1. Lavine playing the victim card was stupid
2. I’m not inclined to help LBJ at all. But if the bulls got reeves or rui I think Lavine makes them worse.
Rui stinks.
Great in depth analysis
Rui isnt good. He was middling as hell in Washington and honestly has been middling in LA outside of having some good games in last year's playoffs. Not much of a defender, inconsistent shooter
That’s a little better, and there’s better analysis below as to why he’s a bad fit. He’s a name I’d seen.
If it’s LA, who do you want?
Aside from the Bulls return here, which I liked MikeDC's angle by pursuing only Lakers assets that you can then flip into picks/ young players...
For the Lakers I kind of like the idea of Lebron, AD, Zach in the playoffs. Zach would clearly know he is the 3rd option spot up shooter/ slasher, and that would be about the only environment for him to mature into a useful championship piece. Zach needs some dudes like LBJ and AD to show him his place, maybe LeBron could force him to study game film on opponents as well... I don't want Zach anywhere near my team but I'd be happy for him on the Lakers
I like the idea of LAL having to gut the roster for a Big 3 that doesn’t work and lessens their bench for playoffs
Negativity is palpable around BaB! Bulls suck, Lakers suck, Zach sucks, .... Lakers are always going to attract talent. And they appear to have a decent GM. They're one of the very few destination teams in the league along with the Heat
I’ve stayed pretty positive through it all, but I’m done with Lavine
That's cool I get it, I was never a Lavine guy so it doesn't matter too much to me either way but (and I'm a broken record here) I always thought Lavines best role was as a Celtics Ray Allen guy. Which means you need a Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce, and AD makes a good Kevin Garnett if healthy. LeBron is obviously better than Pierce. I think it's a perfect situation for Zach, and will be interested if they can scrap enough around them to make a run. They seemed competitive in the West playoffs last season without Zach
I can’t stand LA and don’t want to help someone get better. Not sure that’s outright negativity though.
The victim stuff after demanding a trade was my last straw
I agree with this. Assuming Zach will buy into being the third option, obviously. If he does, I think he will easily look like the best player he's ever been when he's basically a glorified Ray Allen, Klay Thompson.
That's a perfect situation for the ideal Zach, not for the actual Zach. Whether he can learn and change at 29 years old remains to be seen I guess. His latest comments about his 'delight' at the team's 3-game winning streak and how 'we're' finally playing how we were supposed to and learned in training camp and preseason are not very comforting in that regard. He was the main reason that new philosophy didn't eventuate on the court since the start of the regular season.
Zach's a beta, not an alpha. Just like Ray Allen was. He's also not an ego-maniac, so he'll welcome playing in the biggest limelight in the league without the pressure of being the first or second options. I think he fits in well with their team, and the only way he fails there is if he completely loses confidence in himself or gets injured. He'll be like a better JR Smith. LeBron will know how to use him. Just my opinion
Who gives a shit, fuck the Lakers.
Easy there glass case of emotions
I think a LeBron-AD-Zach Big 3 works really well
LeBron will be the best coach LaVine will have played for (edit: outside of Thibs, but I mean lately)
They can get bench guys with relative ease, I think. Heck Bulls can give them Craig and Drummond if only avoid roster crunch
I appreciate your point of view. I have never liked the idea of teams “helping” others. If this is a win/win for both clubs then you have to do it.
Get younger talent, re-sign Dero which has been my take all along. Keep Caruso
DLo and Hachimura are both negative contracts.
DLo is for sure, although my hope is maybe they'd trade him for whatever they can get at the deadline. Hachimura's contract is manageable enough and he's young enough that it doesn't seem too bad. He seems like a decent player. The big question will be if he can stay healthy.
He’s a low efficiency long two point jumper chucker who doesn’t defend, hit 3’s or rebound and he always has been that except for the Lakers playoff run.
If you could merge Hachi and Paw you'd get a very decent player?
He is hitting over 40% on 3s this year so far this year, though ideally at 25 years old by now you'd want his volume up more like 6 per36. I do somewhat share your dim view of his defense. Literally the best defensive role he's ever inhabited was "Jokic speed bump".
But a 6'8'' guy who can hit shots and defend a couple of positions without getting targeted is a useful player. He showed last year he could be playable for 3 playoff rounds. Doesn't he make like 15M a year or so? That seems like fair value.
yet he was available for two second round picks a year ago. weirdly enough one of those picks are from the Bulls
just seems like Lakers inflation, which again I was wrong on with Caruso but still am generally wary of
It is absolutely Lakers/Lebron inflation. He's also shooting that 40% on extremely low sample size. He's a career 35% shooter with an almost 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. I think he's a net negative and would be bummed if the Bulls pointed to him as something of value in a trade. He's salary filler.
Exactly. The Wiz were willing to take literally anything to dump Rui and now he might be traded for the Bulls' best player? A trade with the Lakers (even if we get Reaves) blows for the Bulls.
Zach Lowe scuttlebutt today:
>"The Lakers want to see what they really have before wading into trade talks, league sources say. The sense around the league is that the Lakers are wary of boosting their weak half (offense) at the expense of their defense (and their cap sheet) in any potential LaVine deals. It's early yet. The price for LaVine will matter for the Lakers if they show any real interest in him. So will how the Lakers perform in the interim, and who else might be gettable; the Lakers have only one future first-round pick left to trade. But the Lakers aren't satisfied with a puncher's chance at reaching the conference finals again."
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/39057886/lowe-lakers-pels-post-ad-randle-new-snappiness-giannis-dominant
FWIW, here's the Lakers rotation now: They're 23rd in offense a 8th in defense.
1- DLo 36, Reaves 12 Vincent (Injured)
2- Reddish 18, Reaves 18, Christie 12
3- Prince 30, Reddish 8, Hachimura 10
4- Lebron 33, Hachimura 15
5- Davis 32, Wood 16, Hayes
When I think it out, if I were the Lakers:
* I wouldn't actually want to trade DLo. He's a competent offensive player and a goodish shooter. He's playing a ton of minutes for them. I don't know how dispensable he is. Add Zach and remove him and do they really improve their offensive ability that much? Eh...
* I started out thinking Rui was more required, but he hasn't played all that much, and Lebron is going to take more of the minutes at the 4 anyway. Would they be much worse with Craig or any other waiver wire pickup? Nah...
* Reaves is youngish, but he's mostly in the minutes Zach would be taking. I don't really want Zach filling in backup PG minutes, but they can pick up someone in the buyout market probably.
So if I'm the Lakers, the offer I make is
Rui, Reaves, Vincent and JHS (practically a FRP... just not as good!) + whatever draft capital they can for Zach + Craig (and Terry Taylor if they want him. Otherwise we have to waive them).
After the trade, they are
1- DLo 36, ???
2- Zach 36, Christie 12
3- Prince 30, Reddish 18
4- Lebron 33, Craig 15
5- Davis 32, Wood 16, Hayes
Seems ok. I'm sure they'd like Caruso, but there's just no way I'd see anything they have as enough to get him.
Good reverse negging of Russell, almost had me convinced ;-)
To follow this up, what do the Bulls do?
For the Bulls we are:
1/2- Coby, Carter, Vincent
1/2- Caruso, Ayo, Reaves
2/3- DeMar, JHS
3/4- Pat, Rui
5- Vuc, Drummond
I think all those guys are fine (except Vuc and Drummond) but once again they're really stacked up with a lot of good but not great options at the guard spots. I'd try to move off of Caruso and either Carter or Vincent quick. And Reaves or Rui if I could turn them into reasonable picks or younger players. I think there's options there because all of those guys are moveable, but they run a risk of having guys be worth less if they don't follow up the trade of LaVine with something else.
That's where I'd be looking hard at teams with interesting young players and picks and a desire to get better right now (Thunder, Rockets, Mavs, and also the Pistons?) and see if we can cash in for a more high potential guy or two.
Maybe Orlando would be another team looking to bolster themselves for a playoff run.
They've got a ton of guys who basically do the same thing type of thing though (Suggs, Black, Gary Harris). Yeah, Caruso is better, but I don't think he's so much better that they'd want to trade much for Caruso given their current positioning.
I was thinking more about moving Reeves, Hachi, or someone for a pick. I do not know their roster at all. I just know they are having a good year and may want to seize the momentum.
Who would trade a pick for Rui? He gets paid $15.7, $17M and $18.2M this and the following two seasons. He is not good at basketball. He had a single decent run in the playoffs and the Lakers wildly overpaid him. I'd rather keep Zach than take on this bozo.
I can't believe the Lakers would trade Austin Reaves for Zach Lavine. Its Caruso 2.0.