"The most boring+hopeless Bulls season in years is set to begin"
Yes, I know this isn't really the topic of this article, but I disagree with this statement. This year's team will absolutely be worse than last year's, but will it be more boring? I'm not sure about that. And it definitely won't be more hopeless. There was nothing to hope for with last year's team. At least there is the hope of young players proving their stuff this year.
Now onto the whole Lonzo topic. You are right in that the organization is definitely trying to make some big story out of Lonzo's comeback, but also, it would be negligent for them not to do so. Comeback stories are always entertaining to fans. There's just something we innately love about a good comeback story. And Lonzo's comeback story will be one of the craziest ones if he actually manages to resurrect his career.
Do you or I think he's going to resurrect his career? Absolutely not. I think he's going to be Brandon Roy 2.0. But that's not how media works. You don't just cover a story you know is going to turn out well. They have to try to hype up Lonzo's return as best they can and they'll live with however it turns out.
I do think there are legitimate stories out there that journalists should shed light on though. You mentioned a couple. Filling the team with a bunch of Chicago natives is clearly a cheap ploy to try to get fans interested in a team they know is going to be garbage. The whole CHSN thing has been a total shit show from the start with their lack of getting any cable deals done other than DirecTV, and everyone seems to have forgotten that there's still no CHSN app for people to use.
To answer the question in the title of this article, Lonzo's comeback is for himself and his fans and that's totally okay in my book. What's not okay is the crazy mismanagement of various other aspects of the Bulls by this front office.
That is valid, but I don't think that's what's happening. Ayo and Matas were both drafted by the Bulls. So it's not like they chose to play here. Carter was probably offered considerably more by the Bulls than anywhere else, so I'm not sure his decision to come here was because he wanted to play for his hometown team.
THT, Steward, Liddell, and JFL are all guys just trying to stay in/make the league. I'm not sure any of them had the leverage to choose the team they wanted to go to. They probably just accepted what was offered to them and it happened to be from the Bulls.
Frantically (turned their computer on earlier today) trying to trade him off of his Prime Klay impersonation from the last game. Don't want to ruin this with another game.
Absolutely. Any coach or front office that doesn't heavily consider that shouldn't be doing the job.
That said, there are times when higher risks to the players longevity should be taken, like in the final game of a championship series. But even that isn't a carte blanche to risk the player's future. The calculus is different for a young bench player and a declining vet going for his first championship.
"Is that why they didn’t simply waive-and-stretch Ball’s contract to better fulfill their primary responsibility: a better-constructed team?"
No. That is a different issue. The team is under no obligation to play someone or keep them under contract. The obligation they have is to not risk the players' health unnecessarily while they are under contract.
Lonzo has only been Pollyanna. So maybe Donovan wanted to pump the brakes, but you're right there's no reason for him to do so, especially before they even saw him in camp
The quote (from almost a month ago) in its entirety seems pretty benign on that account. Basically just saying "None of us want him to destroy his knee overplaying."
“The thing that Arturas mentioned, which is critical, is we don’t know how he’s going to respond after games, after practices,” head coach Billy Donovan said Wednesday. “Because we haven’t seen it. That’s where we first got to start off with. Is it something where he plays 15 to 20 minutes and now he’s got to take the next day off? Can he play 25 to 30 minutes? How does he respond? The back-to-backs, we don’t know any of those things. So we’re going to wait to find out. I do think the one thing I look at it from this lens is Lonzo loves to play. He loves to play. And at his age, as much as he loves to play, he wants to play beyond this year. So we also have a responsibility to make sure that he’s in a position where he can play after this season, where it’s not one of these things where it’s not managed correctly or we’re not putting him in a situation to be effective. Could that be 15 to 18 minutes a game? Maybe. Could it be 20 to 25? Maybe. There’s just a lot of things. If you look at him as a basketball player, he’s an elite point guard that certainly warrants being out on the court a lot. But is he capable of doing that physically? And those things we just don’t know right now. And until we get to training camp and he’s out there, we’ll have a better feel of how we can maybe manage him and allow him to be a productive player.”
ok. some of you were all in on the ridiculous AKME moves( vuch, ball) and some of us were like yeah that’s a terrible idea. only some of us pretend otherwise
Lonzo was a good move. Not all good moves work out (and some bad ones do), but that was a good one.
The problem with the move is that AKME had no alternate plans if Lonzo got hurt, as he did. They wasted years hoping he'd get better, rather than working to put the team in a position to succeed until he healed.
I still think the vuc trade wasn't the worst move in the world, yeah it should have only been 1 pick, but it showed they actually seemed (at the time LOL) serious. the ball signing was fine. in both of those cases it was what they did after which made the moves look bad. I don't hate vuc as much as some but there was no way they should have given him that extension. should have traded him while he was expiring or something. same with ball - once he was hurt, they needed to pivot and just refused to. I won't pretend I hated the moves from the beginning, it was the absolute refusal to make any further moves that was the problem.
yfBB you need to get with the program and push slushy non-basketball optimism for at least a few more weeks, even to this crowd of curmudgeons. We haven't yet wasted so many days of our lives on this season that we're checking into General Hospital with our 13th Bulls-induced heart attack. Surely you have at least one false-hope puff piece in you, for this special time of year that's near and dear to us all? For example, will we get a Scottie Pippen father/son hug night when the Grizzlies come back (along with Larsa and MJ's kid in attendance to ruin it)? Here's hoping Mayberry's sources say yes!!!
THT is not an NBA player. Does anyone else remember when Lebron gaslit Lakers fans into thinking THT was "up next"? He was pretty much untouchable in trades for years. Dude's made over $33M in the NBA and does nothing well. He's a sub-30% shooter from 3 and his career eFG is 47% (league average has been around 54%). Kudos to Klutch for getting this bum paid but damn I never want to see him in a Bulls jersey.
I agree for the most part, but not about “does nothing well.” He’s a good ball handler and facilitator. He’s a good thief, and has the makings of a good defender. He shoots 78% from free throw. He’s also not yet 24.
I don’t think he’s good, but he does do some things okay. I think there’s also a path of him being a legitimate NBA player - gets better from 3, starts rebounding and becomes a playmaking 3-and-D wing - but he’s still got a ways to go to get there, and I’m not sure he takes it.
Have we exceeded the statute of limitations for explaining away Patrick's inadequacies by saying "he's only ____ years old"? And when I say "we" I mean AK.
He's gotten like 5000 minutes in his NBA career, playing both with really good players and last year with a lot of mediocre backcourt talent where he could have established himself. I don't know where the potential lies. Also when he opens his mouth he looks like a bowling ball.
I did some fun “guessing” on how bad the Bulls have screwed up their rebuild. Just to back up Matt’s point that they aren’t even trying to rebuild, they just suck, I’m limiting it only to this past Summer.*
But…
1) they probably left a 2025 1st round pick on the table when they traded Caruso. OKC has 3 1st round picks, and they won’t use them all. AKME absolutely could have held out for it. That deal did not have to be made “right then.”
2) they likely left that pick-swap with Sacramento on the table (or a couple of seconds) plus whatever Barnes nets in trade this year.
3) I’m à Patrick Williams truther (not for any great reason - just more because I liked him as a mid-lottery flyer in the draft) but even there, they didn’t have to re-sign him so quickly.
4) I know that Vucevic and LaVine are not good, but I think people are underestimating how much other teams are going all in on à tank. Healthy LaVine and Vucevic could add anywhere from 3-6 wins to the team, and in the crowded tankapalooza, that could put them outside of the Top Ten and losing their pick.
If they were actually rebuilding with an eye on the long-term future, they worlds have made different moves here.
I’m wholly convinced they only went after Giddey because AKME has been obsessed with à tall point guard since Ball was hurt, and OKC was happy to oblige. I think Buzelis fell to them, and him being à Chicago guy and if Eastern European descent made the pick easy for AKME. And I think they really didn’t want to pay DeRozan and he wanted to win, so they facilitated the sign-and-trade. I’m 100% confident that had he come at à lower price, they would have re-signed him.
*for instance, they obviously should have traded DeRozan and Caruso last season, and I was one of the few people arguing against re-signing Vucevic and instead throwing all the money they could at Naz Reid.
Hey, I was also arguing not to re-sign Vooch and go after Naz Reid!
But yeah, I agree with pretty much everything here. The Bulls aren't rebuilding, they're just bad because all their other terrible decisions led to them being bad.
and the mindset will continue through Billy's rotations. They have a very clear development path if they play Giddey, Williams, Buzelis, Terry/Phillips, Smith a lot. It'll not only be the best way to see what you have, but get the fans interested* and improve lottery position
but if it's Billy coaching to win (and keep his own reputation up)...I still think they'll lose more than enough, but it won't be as much of a guarantee, plus will delay some key development
*this is 'Darnell's fans', though. they're thinking of the patrons who pay to see competitive home court advantage
I should add that I wasn't considering - and KC is hammering on this in his 'coverage' - that the teammates of Lonzo are really rooting for him
that's worth noting. Though I don't think any - especially those that played with him - will be around much longer, and Lonzo won't be either. So even that element is still a bit sideshow distraction to me
can't hate on staying employed, but somewhat striking that KC doesn't even have a publication anymore for his writing. Pivoted to video (and tweets, a diminishing market)
Are the Bulls trying to improve their reputation among players? If they think they hurt themselves in FA by having a poor rep in the GarPax years it makes sense to try to improve that by treating the high profile players well. Supporting Lonzo and giving him a chance sends a message that they might do the same if you get an injury in the future.
Maybe put it in the same boat with hiring Eric Waters as head trainer. Treat the players well, throw your hat in the ring for the bigger FAs when the time comes.
I mentioned this in the post, that has been a stated goal of theirs but so far nobody thinks the Bulls are reputable besides Vuc, and they overpaid to keep him too
I think both are probably true. Like I think CE is right and AKME genuinely are trying to prove that this is an organization that cares for its players, but I also think you're right in that they're doing so many other things terribly that nobody wants to come play for them.
Wish the dude the best. I really want to see him find some way to have a role somewhere. He was such a legitimately fun basketball player before all of this sadness. There are very few guys in the league who make you feel like they're just processing things faster than everyone else. Moving in slow time.
This organization is such hot hot garbage that it's embarrassing to wax poetic about a less than half-season stretch where we had two of those guys, but such is life in this Bulls universe. It was still fun. I'll disconnect from my Bulls malaise and really root for Lonzo to have some sort of functional basketball life where we get to see some - no matter how reduced - form of that awesome stuff again
Exactly this. I could very well be wrong, but I feel like there's a lot of hate (or at least dislike) towards Lonzo from BaB commenters and I don't get it. I understand that his injury sucked and I understand that everything AKME did after his injury was incredibly dumb, but those things aren't his fault.
He was like Alex Caruso in his ability to impact games without needing the ball in his hands all the time or scoring a lot. Guys like that are just fun to watch. And as you say, he had the ability to see the game a step or two ahead of everyone else. It's so fun to watch players like that. Especially compared to guys like Zach who see the game a step or two behind everyone else.
Yes, the Lonzo era of Bulls basketball has sucked. I won't deny that, but it hasn't sucked because of things he's done. It's sucked because he got injured and everything else was handled terribly by the front office. The ire shouldn't be on Lonzo because of that.
He seems like a good guy off the court and he's a helluva fun player on the court, so I'm rooting for him. I don't expect him to manage some sort of career after this, but I'll still cheer for it to happen. Maybe that's too optimistic of a take for BaB, I don't really know.
Yeah I don't hate Lonzo, but I'm not sure he's being all that smart about trying to play after all this. Maybe the hate comes from the fact the org has been able to dangle his recovery like a carrot to keep people interested. None of that is his fault. I was really hoping he'd at least be able to be pain free after these newest surgeries, but I hope he doesn't negate that by the comeback attempt.
I agree. My hope is that he's been cleared by multiple doctors to play again. Basketball has been his passion his whole life. I can't blame him for trying to make a comeback. If he suffers another significant knee injury this year though, I hope he hangs it up and just enjoys the rest of his life.
I know, I feel for these guys whose entire life is basketball and they don't know anything else and end up like this. So yeah it's easy for me to say "hey go enjoy your millions and retire" when all the guy wants to do is do what he loves... but at the same time, despite the flak Rose got when he made the comments about wanting to enjoy the rest of his life, he was right.
Scoop Jackson wrote a story about this for Page 2, I think, in regard to Eddy Curry playing despite the heart diagnosis. And then bringing up Grant Hill, who was at the time mounting an almost annual comeback with the Magic.
For real. Can we get a mysterious Vooch injury at the beginning of the year and just let Smith, Sanogo and Kenny Lofton Jr play center for the rest of the season? It'll help keep their pick and it'll also be more fun to watch.
Additionally re: CHSN nonsense, both the Grizzlies and Bucks games were blacked out for me. Xfinity/Comcast DVR recorded during free league pass time only to be met with 'restricted blah blah blah'. All of these actors suck but it is insane that I'm blacked out of a national broadcast of a game that my carrier does not carry locally. Poor!
The league has to step in at some point, right? There's no way they're cool with a ton of people in their third biggest market not having access to games.
Then again, I'd think the league would step in when the only team in their third biggest market clearly has no desire to actually put out a good product, but here we are.
I know I'm crazy but I've enjoyed the preseason games so far. This team is truly terrible, but I find it far more entertaining than what we've gotten the past couple years.
Billy threw out a lineup to close out the first quarter against the Grizzlies that was pretty fun (and terrible) - Ayo, Terry, Phillips, Matas, and Pat at small-ball five. That lineup had zero offense but they were flying around like madmen on defense and actually managed several steals and fast break opportunities.
Then we got the exact opposite to start the second. It was Giddey, Javon Carter, Zach, Craig, and Vooch. That lineup actually outscored whatever the Grizzlies had on the court at that time, but it was just so boring.
All that to say, I think I'm going to somewhat enjoy the terribleness that is this year's team because it will at least be fun.
The other thing I was laughing at was after we were joking about pre-season double doubles, the bulls fb page touted Sanogo's double double. It was like "Double-double 'Dama" like that is an actual fucking thing, and what made me laugh even more was the fact that FB's stupid AI was like "More about Double-Double Dama" 💀💀
it'd hit different if that was a fun side show, but there is no main show for them to tout. Just a scrappy farm team that will produce on better teams in a few years
Right.. the fact that they acted like it was a thing people actually would say. And in the preseason no less. I was like wow.. we're really grasping here lol.
Most of this - for me - is probably sad. I have a need to regularly watch/follow a basketball team that I care about. This terrible organization is mine. I can casually watch nationally televised 'other' games of teams and players I dig. I do it, It's fun. It doesn't scratch the itch of 'this is a team that I really care about and I've watched grow and blah blah blah'. I'm a sucker.
It's a theoretical time/enjoyment sink. It rarely delivers, but it's nice to have the option. The fact that this shitty organization is actively causing this makes me just beyond beyond
oof that really blows, one example of No Bulls Fault though. Not that they aren't carried by XFinity, but that the league couldn't bend their blackout rules even during the 'free' period
My OTA antenna 'locked in' so I can actually see the games now (I have no idea how/why/or if an antenna can 'lock in' but I like to think it did). My concerns are mainly long-term:
- I don't get Giddey. He's made a more than expected number of flat-footed, bad form threes. But more importantly he has no handle, can't get separation (there are always people hanging all over him, even in the open court), and his passing skills are very basic helped out by his size. I went to YouTube to look for career passing highlights and there weren't many at all (he throws a good roll-lob, something this team doesn't excel at) and he's seemed to have made fewer oh-shit playmaking plays in his career than Yuki Kawamura did in one preseason game against the Bulls. I'm terrified of his next (Bulls) contract.
- On bad contracts, PW's 5-yearer looks to be the gift that will keep on being an albatross. It's become clear he has little sense of how to play, from his passivity in EVERY Bulls lineup to his laughable oops-missed-it rim attacks. Maybe some day....
- BD+ADKME don't seem to know who their best players are, and what makes a player good. Witness Vuc on the one hand, and non-starting Ayo on the other. This will doom us until the NEXT regime comes in, no end in sight for now.
All that said, I'll keep watching until it's truly hopeless and embarrassing, just like the Boylen era.
I think you're right about Giddey's passing. There's a difference between a player that's great at passing and a player that likes to pass. Giddey likes to pass, but I don't think he's great at it. His lack of handles also limits his passing ability.
With that being said, he'll still probably be the best passer on this team (behind Lonzo if he even counts), but that's mostly just because this team has some sort of aversion to guys that want to pass the ball.
I do think he can still make a difference with his passing though. His size does give him an advantage when it comes to seeing the floor and getting passes off. Just the fact that the Bulls will have a primary ball handler that is looking to pass first should help the team.
A modern NBA offense has the best player on the team bring the ball up when it matters, for the most part. That's what you want to happen. Obviously those are situations that the Bulls won't confront very often, or at least not with meaningful consequences. But that's why the thing with Giddey in OKC matters and will put a lid on his NBA career until he stops shooting 3s like a 12 year old who has trouble lifting the ball above his head.
In OKC, Shai was going to bring the ball up in the clutch or key possessions, and THAT'S where Giddey's limitations were most pronounced. He couldn't be deployed at the 3 point line and he can't really get into the paint so he was just nothing. It's not that he was superfluous because Shai was better with the ball in his hands in those situations. It's that once you took that away there was nothing to his game to recommend him. OKC was better with just a basic bitch slightly-above-league-average 3 point shooter in his spot in those situations.
He can play the rest of the time and probably put up really good counting stats (though his limitations unfortunately are reinforced by other players on the team, which is why I think this is going to be historically awful. But anyway...) But even on this team, there's one guy who might demand double coverage even though he's kind of an airhead, and who can shred a defense when he's not throwing it to Adam and Stacey. So what do you do? You can keep Giddey on the floor and kind of sabotage the whole thing because he's unable to do those things without the ball, or force him to have the ball even though the defender in the half court isn't going to pick him until he's maybe 24 feet out, and also carry him on the defense side, etc.
Giddey is a really good idea of a '80s basketball player that would light it up in a weird platoon for the Kings for a couple of years before threatening to leave to play with Brian Shaw in Italy.
I think I've said this before, but I would be much more on board with Giddey if there was any evidence he's a good post player. But there isn't. So without that to put pressure on the rim, and without strong slashing skills to do likewise, what's the spark to his game? Zach Lowe was talking about him averaging 20/8/8 this season, and I think he has what it takes to do that: as long as he takes 17 shots and turns the ball over four and a half times a game.
He's just not great with contact, he avoids it and it affects so many parts of his game. I don't know if adding some more strength will change things. When you watch him play he's just kind of like this. His choice around the rim / in traffic is to find ways around rather than through - little floaters and what-not - even when he's the bigger / stronger player. That worries me. His size is an asset when it comes to vision, but he's the rare Aussie that plays small
I want the starting lineup to be Coby/Ayo/Buz/Phillips/Sanogo. The rest are overpaid or trash and I’m not giddy about Giddey’s upcoming massive contract.
Off topic a bit, but I really recommend people listen to Jeff Teague's recent podcast with Rose. I think a lot of people here would find it really interesting. I assumed Derrick was just a basketball robot with maybe literally nothing else going on in his brain. That's just how he came across in interviews, at least when he was here. So this conversation with Teague was kind of like a minor revelation for me. He even addresses how his demure pose was intentional, and explains why he was like that, particularly earlier in his career. It's cool shit.
You are welcome. I would actually recommend pretty much any episode of that podcast where they have a guest. Teague and his guys are really good at this. You can tell how much every guest just likes Jeff Teague and wants to talk to him.
Teague podcast is the best. I'd recommend consuming it via Youtube shorts, not the whole podcast. The shorts are pure entertainment. Re: Rose, check out Teague's story about Rose scoring 50 while in Minnesota. Legendary.
"The most boring+hopeless Bulls season in years is set to begin"
Yes, I know this isn't really the topic of this article, but I disagree with this statement. This year's team will absolutely be worse than last year's, but will it be more boring? I'm not sure about that. And it definitely won't be more hopeless. There was nothing to hope for with last year's team. At least there is the hope of young players proving their stuff this year.
Now onto the whole Lonzo topic. You are right in that the organization is definitely trying to make some big story out of Lonzo's comeback, but also, it would be negligent for them not to do so. Comeback stories are always entertaining to fans. There's just something we innately love about a good comeback story. And Lonzo's comeback story will be one of the craziest ones if he actually manages to resurrect his career.
Do you or I think he's going to resurrect his career? Absolutely not. I think he's going to be Brandon Roy 2.0. But that's not how media works. You don't just cover a story you know is going to turn out well. They have to try to hype up Lonzo's return as best they can and they'll live with however it turns out.
I do think there are legitimate stories out there that journalists should shed light on though. You mentioned a couple. Filling the team with a bunch of Chicago natives is clearly a cheap ploy to try to get fans interested in a team they know is going to be garbage. The whole CHSN thing has been a total shit show from the start with their lack of getting any cable deals done other than DirecTV, and everyone seems to have forgotten that there's still no CHSN app for people to use.
To answer the question in the title of this article, Lonzo's comeback is for himself and his fans and that's totally okay in my book. What's not okay is the crazy mismanagement of various other aspects of the Bulls by this front office.
"Filling the team with a bunch of Chicago natives is clearly a cheap ploy to try to get fans interested"
Or the Bulls reputation is so bad they can only get players that want to play in their hometown?
That is valid, but I don't think that's what's happening. Ayo and Matas were both drafted by the Bulls. So it's not like they chose to play here. Carter was probably offered considerably more by the Bulls than anywhere else, so I'm not sure his decision to come here was because he wanted to play for his hometown team.
THT, Steward, Liddell, and JFL are all guys just trying to stay in/make the league. I'm not sure any of them had the leverage to choose the team they wanted to go to. They probably just accepted what was offered to them and it happened to be from the Bulls.
Monday shootaround update: Bulls holding out Zach LaVine for tonight's game
Frantically (turned their computer on earlier today) trying to trade him off of his Prime Klay impersonation from the last game. Don't want to ruin this with another game.
It doesnt really matter... 1.) Its pre-season 2.) He scored 28 they other night and they still lost...
If you asked 100 random Chicagoans, I wonder how many know who Lonzo Ball is, and if they do, what team currently employs him.
Ed. note: No need for the prepositional double-pump fake. You already said "For whom", you don't need to say "even for".
A situation up with which we should not have to put!
😔 Nothing to be done when it's in the headline, dang
For whom the Ball tolls?
Lonzo will make his debut on Wednesday, per Shams.
https://x.com/ShamsCharania/status/1845857593274614213
Sure he will
So will Julius Randle per Haynes.
https://x.com/ChrisBHaynes/status/1845896332911038804
"Do you actually have that responsibility?"
Absolutely. Any coach or front office that doesn't heavily consider that shouldn't be doing the job.
That said, there are times when higher risks to the players longevity should be taken, like in the final game of a championship series. But even that isn't a carte blanche to risk the player's future. The calculus is different for a young bench player and a declining vet going for his first championship.
"Is that why they didn’t simply waive-and-stretch Ball’s contract to better fulfill their primary responsibility: a better-constructed team?"
No. That is a different issue. The team is under no obligation to play someone or keep them under contract. The obligation they have is to not risk the players' health unnecessarily while they are under contract.
His contract is up after this year, and Donovan spoke like the next one won't be coming from them.
That's not how the quote reads to me, particularly in it's entirety and in context of Billy basically never talking about that sort of thing.
It's just Billy talking about the strategy to keep him from destroying his knee.
To me, that was a strange quote from Donovan. He’s basically saying without saying that Lonzo is extremely limited and on borrowed time.
Which maybe he is, but it seems like Lonzo’s place to say things like that, not anyone on the Bulls.
Lonzo has only been Pollyanna. So maybe Donovan wanted to pump the brakes, but you're right there's no reason for him to do so, especially before they even saw him in camp
The quote (from almost a month ago) in its entirety seems pretty benign on that account. Basically just saying "None of us want him to destroy his knee overplaying."
“The thing that Arturas mentioned, which is critical, is we don’t know how he’s going to respond after games, after practices,” head coach Billy Donovan said Wednesday. “Because we haven’t seen it. That’s where we first got to start off with. Is it something where he plays 15 to 20 minutes and now he’s got to take the next day off? Can he play 25 to 30 minutes? How does he respond? The back-to-backs, we don’t know any of those things. So we’re going to wait to find out. I do think the one thing I look at it from this lens is Lonzo loves to play. He loves to play. And at his age, as much as he loves to play, he wants to play beyond this year. So we also have a responsibility to make sure that he’s in a position where he can play after this season, where it’s not one of these things where it’s not managed correctly or we’re not putting him in a situation to be effective. Could that be 15 to 18 minutes a game? Maybe. Could it be 20 to 25? Maybe. There’s just a lot of things. If you look at him as a basketball player, he’s an elite point guard that certainly warrants being out on the court a lot. But is he capable of doing that physically? And those things we just don’t know right now. And until we get to training camp and he’s out there, we’ll have a better feel of how we can maybe manage him and allow him to be a productive player.”
ok. some of you were all in on the ridiculous AKME moves( vuch, ball) and some of us were like yeah that’s a terrible idea. only some of us pretend otherwise
I liked the Ball signing. I figured he'd be injury prone but my crystal ball wasn't telling me about the career ending injury.
Not true, and you can't confirm it bc SB Nation comments were nuked muahaha
Lonzo was a good move. Not all good moves work out (and some bad ones do), but that was a good one.
The problem with the move is that AKME had no alternate plans if Lonzo got hurt, as he did. They wasted years hoping he'd get better, rather than working to put the team in a position to succeed until he healed.
I still think the vuc trade wasn't the worst move in the world, yeah it should have only been 1 pick, but it showed they actually seemed (at the time LOL) serious. the ball signing was fine. in both of those cases it was what they did after which made the moves look bad. I don't hate vuc as much as some but there was no way they should have given him that extension. should have traded him while he was expiring or something. same with ball - once he was hurt, they needed to pivot and just refused to. I won't pretend I hated the moves from the beginning, it was the absolute refusal to make any further moves that was the problem.
yfBB you need to get with the program and push slushy non-basketball optimism for at least a few more weeks, even to this crowd of curmudgeons. We haven't yet wasted so many days of our lives on this season that we're checking into General Hospital with our 13th Bulls-induced heart attack. Surely you have at least one false-hope puff piece in you, for this special time of year that's near and dear to us all? For example, will we get a Scottie Pippen father/son hug night when the Grizzlies come back (along with Larsa and MJ's kid in attendance to ruin it)? Here's hoping Mayberry's sources say yes!!!
the network needs this, call your provider!
https://twitter.com/CHSN__/status/1846202610417618968
THT is not an NBA player. Does anyone else remember when Lebron gaslit Lakers fans into thinking THT was "up next"? He was pretty much untouchable in trades for years. Dude's made over $33M in the NBA and does nothing well. He's a sub-30% shooter from 3 and his career eFG is 47% (league average has been around 54%). Kudos to Klutch for getting this bum paid but damn I never want to see him in a Bulls jersey.
He's outplayed Bitim.
I agree for the most part, but not about “does nothing well.” He’s a good ball handler and facilitator. He’s a good thief, and has the makings of a good defender. He shoots 78% from free throw. He’s also not yet 24.
I don’t think he’s good, but he does do some things okay. I think there’s also a path of him being a legitimate NBA player - gets better from 3, starts rebounding and becomes a playmaking 3-and-D wing - but he’s still got a ways to go to get there, and I’m not sure he takes it.
Only a year older than Patrick Williams
Have we exceeded the statute of limitations for explaining away Patrick's inadequacies by saying "he's only ____ years old"? And when I say "we" I mean AK.
yes, now pivot to "he's missed _ _ years due to injury"
He's gotten like 5000 minutes in his NBA career, playing both with really good players and last year with a lot of mediocre backcourt talent where he could have established himself. I don't know where the potential lies. Also when he opens his mouth he looks like a bowling ball.
He seems more of an NBA player to me than Bitim or Terry. Maybe more than PWill in his current, crippled looking form.
I did some fun “guessing” on how bad the Bulls have screwed up their rebuild. Just to back up Matt’s point that they aren’t even trying to rebuild, they just suck, I’m limiting it only to this past Summer.*
But…
1) they probably left a 2025 1st round pick on the table when they traded Caruso. OKC has 3 1st round picks, and they won’t use them all. AKME absolutely could have held out for it. That deal did not have to be made “right then.”
2) they likely left that pick-swap with Sacramento on the table (or a couple of seconds) plus whatever Barnes nets in trade this year.
3) I’m à Patrick Williams truther (not for any great reason - just more because I liked him as a mid-lottery flyer in the draft) but even there, they didn’t have to re-sign him so quickly.
4) I know that Vucevic and LaVine are not good, but I think people are underestimating how much other teams are going all in on à tank. Healthy LaVine and Vucevic could add anywhere from 3-6 wins to the team, and in the crowded tankapalooza, that could put them outside of the Top Ten and losing their pick.
If they were actually rebuilding with an eye on the long-term future, they worlds have made different moves here.
I’m wholly convinced they only went after Giddey because AKME has been obsessed with à tall point guard since Ball was hurt, and OKC was happy to oblige. I think Buzelis fell to them, and him being à Chicago guy and if Eastern European descent made the pick easy for AKME. And I think they really didn’t want to pay DeRozan and he wanted to win, so they facilitated the sign-and-trade. I’m 100% confident that had he come at à lower price, they would have re-signed him.
*for instance, they obviously should have traded DeRozan and Caruso last season, and I was one of the few people arguing against re-signing Vucevic and instead throwing all the money they could at Naz Reid.
Hey, I was also arguing not to re-sign Vooch and go after Naz Reid!
But yeah, I agree with pretty much everything here. The Bulls aren't rebuilding, they're just bad because all their other terrible decisions led to them being bad.
yes that's my theory as well
and the mindset will continue through Billy's rotations. They have a very clear development path if they play Giddey, Williams, Buzelis, Terry/Phillips, Smith a lot. It'll not only be the best way to see what you have, but get the fans interested* and improve lottery position
but if it's Billy coaching to win (and keep his own reputation up)...I still think they'll lose more than enough, but it won't be as much of a guarantee, plus will delay some key development
*this is 'Darnell's fans', though. they're thinking of the patrons who pay to see competitive home court advantage
speaking of Billy, I wonder if he gets a promo code and can see that gambling odds have him as most likely to be first coach fired
https://www.bovada.lv/sports/basketball/nba-specials/nba-specials/first-head-coach-to-permanantly-leave-post-202410221900
I should add that I wasn't considering - and KC is hammering on this in his 'coverage' - that the teammates of Lonzo are really rooting for him
that's worth noting. Though I don't think any - especially those that played with him - will be around much longer, and Lonzo won't be either. So even that element is still a bit sideshow distraction to me
Is it just me or does it seem like they've told KC to smile more when on camera? It's really creeping me out.
can't hate on staying employed, but somewhat striking that KC doesn't even have a publication anymore for his writing. Pivoted to video (and tweets, a diminishing market)
There's gotta be some retirements coming soon. He's just gonna have to bide his time.
oh certainly there's a spot at Bulls dot com replacing Sam Smith soon
it actually makes sense for CHSN to not have a website because they already are owned by the teams and those have the team sites.
If you were to ever hire an additional writer... (** dreaming of the blogabull super duo **)
Are the Bulls trying to improve their reputation among players? If they think they hurt themselves in FA by having a poor rep in the GarPax years it makes sense to try to improve that by treating the high profile players well. Supporting Lonzo and giving him a chance sends a message that they might do the same if you get an injury in the future.
Maybe put it in the same boat with hiring Eric Waters as head trainer. Treat the players well, throw your hat in the ring for the bigger FAs when the time comes.
I mentioned this in the post, that has been a stated goal of theirs but so far nobody thinks the Bulls are reputable besides Vuc, and they overpaid to keep him too
I think both are probably true. Like I think CE is right and AKME genuinely are trying to prove that this is an organization that cares for its players, but I also think you're right in that they're doing so many other things terribly that nobody wants to come play for them.
Lonzo gave special shout-out to the Bulls for not "casting him aside"
https://twitter.com/byjuliapoe/status/1846594791707918417
cool, tell Rich Paul to help us out in return and get Zach to the Lakers already!
Wish the dude the best. I really want to see him find some way to have a role somewhere. He was such a legitimately fun basketball player before all of this sadness. There are very few guys in the league who make you feel like they're just processing things faster than everyone else. Moving in slow time.
This organization is such hot hot garbage that it's embarrassing to wax poetic about a less than half-season stretch where we had two of those guys, but such is life in this Bulls universe. It was still fun. I'll disconnect from my Bulls malaise and really root for Lonzo to have some sort of functional basketball life where we get to see some - no matter how reduced - form of that awesome stuff again
Exactly this. I could very well be wrong, but I feel like there's a lot of hate (or at least dislike) towards Lonzo from BaB commenters and I don't get it. I understand that his injury sucked and I understand that everything AKME did after his injury was incredibly dumb, but those things aren't his fault.
He was like Alex Caruso in his ability to impact games without needing the ball in his hands all the time or scoring a lot. Guys like that are just fun to watch. And as you say, he had the ability to see the game a step or two ahead of everyone else. It's so fun to watch players like that. Especially compared to guys like Zach who see the game a step or two behind everyone else.
Yes, the Lonzo era of Bulls basketball has sucked. I won't deny that, but it hasn't sucked because of things he's done. It's sucked because he got injured and everything else was handled terribly by the front office. The ire shouldn't be on Lonzo because of that.
He seems like a good guy off the court and he's a helluva fun player on the court, so I'm rooting for him. I don't expect him to manage some sort of career after this, but I'll still cheer for it to happen. Maybe that's too optimistic of a take for BaB, I don't really know.
Yeah I don't hate Lonzo, but I'm not sure he's being all that smart about trying to play after all this. Maybe the hate comes from the fact the org has been able to dangle his recovery like a carrot to keep people interested. None of that is his fault. I was really hoping he'd at least be able to be pain free after these newest surgeries, but I hope he doesn't negate that by the comeback attempt.
I agree. My hope is that he's been cleared by multiple doctors to play again. Basketball has been his passion his whole life. I can't blame him for trying to make a comeback. If he suffers another significant knee injury this year though, I hope he hangs it up and just enjoys the rest of his life.
I know, I feel for these guys whose entire life is basketball and they don't know anything else and end up like this. So yeah it's easy for me to say "hey go enjoy your millions and retire" when all the guy wants to do is do what he loves... but at the same time, despite the flak Rose got when he made the comments about wanting to enjoy the rest of his life, he was right.
Yep, completely agree.
Scoop Jackson wrote a story about this for Page 2, I think, in regard to Eddy Curry playing despite the heart diagnosis. And then bringing up Grant Hill, who was at the time mounting an almost annual comeback with the Magic.
Ah, this is it, I haven't read it in a long time:
http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/051011&num=0
I think that's underestimating how much money even a minimum contract is.
Fair. I suppose I just can't relate. I'm also just not that driven.
It was really kind of fun watching a Bulls' game without Vooch on the floor. I'd rather have EJ Liddell and Lofton than him on the roster.
For real. Can we get a mysterious Vooch injury at the beginning of the year and just let Smith, Sanogo and Kenny Lofton Jr play center for the rest of the season? It'll help keep their pick and it'll also be more fun to watch.
Additionally re: CHSN nonsense, both the Grizzlies and Bucks games were blacked out for me. Xfinity/Comcast DVR recorded during free league pass time only to be met with 'restricted blah blah blah'. All of these actors suck but it is insane that I'm blacked out of a national broadcast of a game that my carrier does not carry locally. Poor!
The league has to step in at some point, right? There's no way they're cool with a ton of people in their third biggest market not having access to games.
Then again, I'd think the league would step in when the only team in their third biggest market clearly has no desire to actually put out a good product, but here we are.
lol everyone on fb is complaining they can't watch. because for some reason they actually want to watch this garbage?
I know I'm crazy but I've enjoyed the preseason games so far. This team is truly terrible, but I find it far more entertaining than what we've gotten the past couple years.
Billy threw out a lineup to close out the first quarter against the Grizzlies that was pretty fun (and terrible) - Ayo, Terry, Phillips, Matas, and Pat at small-ball five. That lineup had zero offense but they were flying around like madmen on defense and actually managed several steals and fast break opportunities.
Then we got the exact opposite to start the second. It was Giddey, Javon Carter, Zach, Craig, and Vooch. That lineup actually outscored whatever the Grizzlies had on the court at that time, but it was just so boring.
All that to say, I think I'm going to somewhat enjoy the terribleness that is this year's team because it will at least be fun.
The other thing I was laughing at was after we were joking about pre-season double doubles, the bulls fb page touted Sanogo's double double. It was like "Double-double 'Dama" like that is an actual fucking thing, and what made me laugh even more was the fact that FB's stupid AI was like "More about Double-Double Dama" 💀💀
"like that is an actual fucking thing"
But it is an actual thing to this organization. They genuinely believe being a double-double machine equates to being a highly impactful player.
I meant like the nickname, not so much the feat itself.
it'd hit different if that was a fun side show, but there is no main show for them to tout. Just a scrappy farm team that will produce on better teams in a few years
Right.. the fact that they acted like it was a thing people actually would say. And in the preseason no less. I was like wow.. we're really grasping here lol.
Most of this - for me - is probably sad. I have a need to regularly watch/follow a basketball team that I care about. This terrible organization is mine. I can casually watch nationally televised 'other' games of teams and players I dig. I do it, It's fun. It doesn't scratch the itch of 'this is a team that I really care about and I've watched grow and blah blah blah'. I'm a sucker.
It's a theoretical time/enjoyment sink. It rarely delivers, but it's nice to have the option. The fact that this shitty organization is actively causing this makes me just beyond beyond
the people have spoken on eX as well https://twitter.com/_phil_thompson/status/1846369385403109406
What's the breakdown? I can't see the poll results.
57% "boycott"
43% finding other ways to watch
oof that really blows, one example of No Bulls Fault though. Not that they aren't carried by XFinity, but that the league couldn't bend their blackout rules even during the 'free' period
My OTA antenna 'locked in' so I can actually see the games now (I have no idea how/why/or if an antenna can 'lock in' but I like to think it did). My concerns are mainly long-term:
- I don't get Giddey. He's made a more than expected number of flat-footed, bad form threes. But more importantly he has no handle, can't get separation (there are always people hanging all over him, even in the open court), and his passing skills are very basic helped out by his size. I went to YouTube to look for career passing highlights and there weren't many at all (he throws a good roll-lob, something this team doesn't excel at) and he's seemed to have made fewer oh-shit playmaking plays in his career than Yuki Kawamura did in one preseason game against the Bulls. I'm terrified of his next (Bulls) contract.
- On bad contracts, PW's 5-yearer looks to be the gift that will keep on being an albatross. It's become clear he has little sense of how to play, from his passivity in EVERY Bulls lineup to his laughable oops-missed-it rim attacks. Maybe some day....
- BD+ADKME don't seem to know who their best players are, and what makes a player good. Witness Vuc on the one hand, and non-starting Ayo on the other. This will doom us until the NEXT regime comes in, no end in sight for now.
All that said, I'll keep watching until it's truly hopeless and embarrassing, just like the Boylen era.
I think you're right about Giddey's passing. There's a difference between a player that's great at passing and a player that likes to pass. Giddey likes to pass, but I don't think he's great at it. His lack of handles also limits his passing ability.
With that being said, he'll still probably be the best passer on this team (behind Lonzo if he even counts), but that's mostly just because this team has some sort of aversion to guys that want to pass the ball.
I do think he can still make a difference with his passing though. His size does give him an advantage when it comes to seeing the floor and getting passes off. Just the fact that the Bulls will have a primary ball handler that is looking to pass first should help the team.
A modern NBA offense has the best player on the team bring the ball up when it matters, for the most part. That's what you want to happen. Obviously those are situations that the Bulls won't confront very often, or at least not with meaningful consequences. But that's why the thing with Giddey in OKC matters and will put a lid on his NBA career until he stops shooting 3s like a 12 year old who has trouble lifting the ball above his head.
In OKC, Shai was going to bring the ball up in the clutch or key possessions, and THAT'S where Giddey's limitations were most pronounced. He couldn't be deployed at the 3 point line and he can't really get into the paint so he was just nothing. It's not that he was superfluous because Shai was better with the ball in his hands in those situations. It's that once you took that away there was nothing to his game to recommend him. OKC was better with just a basic bitch slightly-above-league-average 3 point shooter in his spot in those situations.
He can play the rest of the time and probably put up really good counting stats (though his limitations unfortunately are reinforced by other players on the team, which is why I think this is going to be historically awful. But anyway...) But even on this team, there's one guy who might demand double coverage even though he's kind of an airhead, and who can shred a defense when he's not throwing it to Adam and Stacey. So what do you do? You can keep Giddey on the floor and kind of sabotage the whole thing because he's unable to do those things without the ball, or force him to have the ball even though the defender in the half court isn't going to pick him until he's maybe 24 feet out, and also carry him on the defense side, etc.
Giddey is a really good idea of a '80s basketball player that would light it up in a weird platoon for the Kings for a couple of years before threatening to leave to play with Brian Shaw in Italy.
I think I've said this before, but I would be much more on board with Giddey if there was any evidence he's a good post player. But there isn't. So without that to put pressure on the rim, and without strong slashing skills to do likewise, what's the spark to his game? Zach Lowe was talking about him averaging 20/8/8 this season, and I think he has what it takes to do that: as long as he takes 17 shots and turns the ball over four and a half times a game.
Poor man's Boris Diaw?
I have an irrational love for Boris. I want to time travel to the ssol days and keep him there, forever
Better get in the weight room, er...the cafeteria
He's just not great with contact, he avoids it and it affects so many parts of his game. I don't know if adding some more strength will change things. When you watch him play he's just kind of like this. His choice around the rim / in traffic is to find ways around rather than through - little floaters and what-not - even when he's the bigger / stronger player. That worries me. His size is an asset when it comes to vision, but he's the rare Aussie that plays small
I want the starting lineup to be Coby/Ayo/Buz/Phillips/Sanogo. The rest are overpaid or trash and I’m not giddy about Giddey’s upcoming massive contract.
Off topic a bit, but I really recommend people listen to Jeff Teague's recent podcast with Rose. I think a lot of people here would find it really interesting. I assumed Derrick was just a basketball robot with maybe literally nothing else going on in his brain. That's just how he came across in interviews, at least when he was here. So this conversation with Teague was kind of like a minor revelation for me. He even addresses how his demure pose was intentional, and explains why he was like that, particularly earlier in his career. It's cool shit.
Thanks for sharing, this was freaking great
You are welcome. I would actually recommend pretty much any episode of that podcast where they have a guest. Teague and his guys are really good at this. You can tell how much every guest just likes Jeff Teague and wants to talk to him.
Teague podcast is the best. I'd recommend consuming it via Youtube shorts, not the whole podcast. The shorts are pure entertainment. Re: Rose, check out Teague's story about Rose scoring 50 while in Minnesota. Legendary.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/A9SJd7BAbXU
Bulls PR for the game has Lonzo featured front and center.
it did the job, now merely half of the comments are people saying they can't see the network
Those are all Darnell's fans anyway. All of the actual fans will be at the game, so there's no need to be able to watch on tv.
yeah they're going Bill Wirtz mode, costs a lot more for a beer than a cable carriage fee