What about Dejounte Murray in a trade for Zach? A lineup with Murray, Caruso, Pat would play some fun defense. He is big enough and good enough defensively to play with Coby.
I'm not sure how his contract works in a trade. I assume you have to use his current money in a trade for him now? But then he goes up to ~30M next year. It would be tough if he only counts $18M in a trade this season.
While I'm all for the Coby white "emergence" I feel only the most rose colored fans probably see him as more than just a legit starter.
And that's not a knock, the bulls needed one of their young players to really pan out and Coby not only has proven himself to be a starting caliber guard in the league but has also been the spearhead for players like ayo and pat.
There is value in Coby both on and off the court, but the bulls cannot assume Coby playing at an allstar level is a plan, because it's not fair to Coby and it's not fair to the fans.
I saw kc mention he saw AKME with lonzo and the former mentioned how lonzo is going to start running in two weeks... And I'm afraid the org is planning to do nothing again and try to sell us the idea of a lonzo and Zach return with slightly better versions of Coby and pat. Because why change something that has never worked?
idk, they do seem like they're going to move zach. I do think they're still holding the lonzo carrot. Donovan said the same thing about him running, and that he is pain free. glad to hear that just on a personal level - I was hoping/thinking the procedure would help the pain part, but still am not holding my breath on an nba return for him.
It is hard to say it never worked though - that version we saw of the team for a short time was actually successful. Almost all the Lonzo starting lineups had a winning record.
I do think Lonzo genuinely made this team the best version of itself. With that being said, I don't think he made them as good as their record looked. They had a relatively easy schedule and still struggled to beat good teams.
Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. I just have a feeling AKME genuinely believed if Lonzo hadn't gotten injured, that team would have been a contender or close to it. I don't think that's true though. I think they're still holding out hope that Lonzo comes back and they recapture that magic, and that's just poor management if that's the case.
I pretty much agree. I just said that really, from the small sample size, that the Lonzo led team actually did work, so that isn't really the argument.
But exactly that's what I was saying about the lonzo carrot. But that doesn't mean I don't think they will try to move zach. No one wants him though. I do think they thought they had a contender, but it was hard to tell how they would have really done. They did struggle but they were also new to each other. They could have improved there too. There are a lot of other factors like if Paw hadn't gotten hurt that season, does he develop a little better even with the limited time Lonzo was playing since he had a real pg to help facilitate offense. Or even just getting to play period. Does Zach continue success since he would be relieved of more decision making and put in a better position to succeed. Does having Lonzo relieve Demar a bit of hero ball? idk. Does Coby make this improvement otherwise? But yes I worry that they are hoping Lonzo relieves their problems but as I said I still am not expecting to him to play again. Not sure what will happen.
Yeah, I agree. Obviously that team was brand new and there likely would have been marginal improvements over the years had everyone stayed healthy.
Unfortunately their core (mid 3) was never going to have much success together. There's only so much you can do with three guys who don't play defense, especially when none of them are otherworldly on offense.
So that team would always have been limited. It's possible if they were good enough that AKME could have traded one of those guys and some other assets for a true superstar that maybe would have pushed the team over the top. I just don't trust AKME to actually be proactive enough to have done that if the opportunity arose.
I do agree about Zach. Even before this season, it was no secret that AKME were looking to move him. Unfortunately they valued him too highly and now are stuck in the unenviable position of having that star publicly ask out, and now all the other teams know they can low-ball the front office because they basically have to get rid of him.
Yikes, I dont think bulls management were looking to move Zach prior to the start of the season. He was still be promoted as the bulls star. It wasn't until the ugly start when the bulls first mentioned looking at trades, then almost to get ahead of it, lavines camp declared they too were looking for separation. Later his camp came out and said lavine was a pro and would work with the bulls, mainly to bolster his value I'm sure. I just think both camps could be happy with not doing anything this off-season.
Hmm it was pretty widely reported they were accepting calls on him last trade deadline, but nobody was willing to give them what they thought he was worth.
Of course they were still promoting him as their star. That's just what you do, especially when you've just signed him to a max extension.
If that's what they are hoping for, they're either insane or the dumbest guys on earth. Let's say Lonzo checks into an NBA game again...how long does that last? 5 games? 15? There's no basis to think he can play NBA basketball again for any meaningful length of time and it's arguably negligent to let him try.
Coby has shown he has all the skills needed in a lead guard. He can shoot, drive and finish, probe a pick and roll and share the ball. He is fast, has good size and is creative with the ball and with his finishes. He also has a very strong pedigree, which I think is important. He's developed more slowly than some of his peers, was put in over his head way too early, but he's persevered (another checkmark in his favor) and he's shown in the first half of this stretch that he's close to an all-star.
The fact that he hasn't been able to sustain all of this focus and effort game after game -- mentally AND physically -- isn't surprising at all. He's in this role in the NBA for the very first time. Let him continue to get stronger and develop (exact same thing with PW).
I think his best hybrid guard comp is Jamal Murray, who's now 26 in his 7th NBA season. IMO Coby is his equal in a season or two, which would be a huge win.
I admit that I was never high on Coby, and that he appears to be having a breakout season. But Jamal Murray? That strikes me as a very optimistic outcome, as the gap is very large.
Murray is a tricky comp. He's probably the most "depends on what you mean" guy in the league. Even apart from the whole "plays with arguably the best offensive player ever", "was enrolled for years at Jokic university" thing. He's never made an all star team, and frankly hasn't come particularly close to deserving the nod yet. I thought this would be the year, but his minutes have been weirdly constrained. Then of course he's had a few playoff runs where he's absolutely looked like a multi year all star.
So I don't think the playoff version of Murray quite belongs in the conversation. That gap is indeed very large, as Jeremy Jet says. But regular season Murray? In production space, they are still relatively far apart. In development space, I think not so much. People talk about development being non-linear in the sense that no one improves every single year by equal increments from their rookie year to their peak. But it's also non-linear in the sense that players, particularly good players, sometimes develop along something like S-curves. A guy gets like 5% better at one or two things, and suddenly he's 40% better as a player. Part of the reason why no one knows how development works. It's really hard to understand something that behaves this way.
I wonder about Jalen Brunson as a possible upside comp. They have a similar package of strengths and weaknesses, though Coby's maybe a bit better on D and Brunson, who's 3 years older is obviously more accomplished offensively right now. Brunson put up a similar PER (14+ish) as a 23 year old.
OG to the Knicks is pretty interesting, especially since NY had to give up both Barrett and Quickley to get him.
Seems like a good trade for both sides. New York gets a good win-now piece and Toronto gets some promising young players to surround Barnes.
Could this be good for the Bulls in their pursuit of trading Zach? The common rumors regarding him and the Sixers were that the Sixers were interested in either Zach or Anunoby with OG being more desired for his defense. Now that he's off the table, does Zach look more attractive to them?
DeMar and Caruso in particular are shooting incredibly well, both above 60% from the field (DeMar obviously on many more FGA); both are tied for 7th in 3pt% clutch shooting at 67% (Caruso on again shooting them at a higher rate). DeMar is unsurprisingly top 10 in FTA/36 in clutch situations (not everyone ahead of him wants to be, Rudy Gobert is one of them).
1. Dalen Terry is still terrible. He plays hard, but that's quite literally his only redeeming quality, and half the time it's actually a detriment.
2. Not sure why Phillips lost his spot in the rotation to Terry. They're polar opposites. Phillips knows his limitations and plays within those, while still being fairly aggressive. Terry plays like he thinks he's a quality NBA player when he's nowhere near that good. If Phillips puts on some weight and keeps working on his jump shot, he'll immediately have a decent NBA career.
3. Terry Taylor plays hard and seems to have good fundamentals. Unfortunately he's the size of a shooting guard with none of the offensive skills.
4. Adama Sanogo was pretty decent. I'm not sure he's ever going to amount to much in the NBA since he lacks size and athleticism, but he's like Taylor in that he has good fundamentals. Plus, he at least has more size than Taylor. With Vooch out, I'm not entirely sure why Taylor is getting minutes over Sanogo. I'd like to see more minutes for him to see what he has.
If Pat misses time and with Coby's injuries mounting, things may get ugly quickly. Also, DeMar is human. If he keeps playing this many minutes, he's going to start suffering from injuries. January may get ugly before the trade deadline.
yeah these injuries have put us in this grim period in 'the discourse' where we have to either discuss these players at all or lie to ourselves that they're better than they've shown.
What about Dejounte Murray in a trade for Zach? A lineup with Murray, Caruso, Pat would play some fun defense. He is big enough and good enough defensively to play with Coby.
I'm not sure how his contract works in a trade. I assume you have to use his current money in a trade for him now? But then he goes up to ~30M next year. It would be tough if he only counts $18M in a trade this season.
How many picks are you including?
Ha none. I take your point. But I would be willing to put Caruso into a trade and it seems like it might have to be a three-team fantasy trade anyway.
While I'm all for the Coby white "emergence" I feel only the most rose colored fans probably see him as more than just a legit starter.
And that's not a knock, the bulls needed one of their young players to really pan out and Coby not only has proven himself to be a starting caliber guard in the league but has also been the spearhead for players like ayo and pat.
There is value in Coby both on and off the court, but the bulls cannot assume Coby playing at an allstar level is a plan, because it's not fair to Coby and it's not fair to the fans.
I saw kc mention he saw AKME with lonzo and the former mentioned how lonzo is going to start running in two weeks... And I'm afraid the org is planning to do nothing again and try to sell us the idea of a lonzo and Zach return with slightly better versions of Coby and pat. Because why change something that has never worked?
idk, they do seem like they're going to move zach. I do think they're still holding the lonzo carrot. Donovan said the same thing about him running, and that he is pain free. glad to hear that just on a personal level - I was hoping/thinking the procedure would help the pain part, but still am not holding my breath on an nba return for him.
It is hard to say it never worked though - that version we saw of the team for a short time was actually successful. Almost all the Lonzo starting lineups had a winning record.
I do think Lonzo genuinely made this team the best version of itself. With that being said, I don't think he made them as good as their record looked. They had a relatively easy schedule and still struggled to beat good teams.
Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. I just have a feeling AKME genuinely believed if Lonzo hadn't gotten injured, that team would have been a contender or close to it. I don't think that's true though. I think they're still holding out hope that Lonzo comes back and they recapture that magic, and that's just poor management if that's the case.
I pretty much agree. I just said that really, from the small sample size, that the Lonzo led team actually did work, so that isn't really the argument.
But exactly that's what I was saying about the lonzo carrot. But that doesn't mean I don't think they will try to move zach. No one wants him though. I do think they thought they had a contender, but it was hard to tell how they would have really done. They did struggle but they were also new to each other. They could have improved there too. There are a lot of other factors like if Paw hadn't gotten hurt that season, does he develop a little better even with the limited time Lonzo was playing since he had a real pg to help facilitate offense. Or even just getting to play period. Does Zach continue success since he would be relieved of more decision making and put in a better position to succeed. Does having Lonzo relieve Demar a bit of hero ball? idk. Does Coby make this improvement otherwise? But yes I worry that they are hoping Lonzo relieves their problems but as I said I still am not expecting to him to play again. Not sure what will happen.
Yeah, I agree. Obviously that team was brand new and there likely would have been marginal improvements over the years had everyone stayed healthy.
Unfortunately their core (mid 3) was never going to have much success together. There's only so much you can do with three guys who don't play defense, especially when none of them are otherworldly on offense.
So that team would always have been limited. It's possible if they were good enough that AKME could have traded one of those guys and some other assets for a true superstar that maybe would have pushed the team over the top. I just don't trust AKME to actually be proactive enough to have done that if the opportunity arose.
I do agree about Zach. Even before this season, it was no secret that AKME were looking to move him. Unfortunately they valued him too highly and now are stuck in the unenviable position of having that star publicly ask out, and now all the other teams know they can low-ball the front office because they basically have to get rid of him.
Yikes, I dont think bulls management were looking to move Zach prior to the start of the season. He was still be promoted as the bulls star. It wasn't until the ugly start when the bulls first mentioned looking at trades, then almost to get ahead of it, lavines camp declared they too were looking for separation. Later his camp came out and said lavine was a pro and would work with the bulls, mainly to bolster his value I'm sure. I just think both camps could be happy with not doing anything this off-season.
Hmm it was pretty widely reported they were accepting calls on him last trade deadline, but nobody was willing to give them what they thought he was worth.
Of course they were still promoting him as their star. That's just what you do, especially when you've just signed him to a max extension.
If that's what they are hoping for, they're either insane or the dumbest guys on earth. Let's say Lonzo checks into an NBA game again...how long does that last? 5 games? 15? There's no basis to think he can play NBA basketball again for any meaningful length of time and it's arguably negligent to let him try.
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if they're both insane and the dumbest guys on earth...
I'm not convinced they believe it either, but that they are selling the fanbase on it, absolutely.
Coby has shown he has all the skills needed in a lead guard. He can shoot, drive and finish, probe a pick and roll and share the ball. He is fast, has good size and is creative with the ball and with his finishes. He also has a very strong pedigree, which I think is important. He's developed more slowly than some of his peers, was put in over his head way too early, but he's persevered (another checkmark in his favor) and he's shown in the first half of this stretch that he's close to an all-star.
The fact that he hasn't been able to sustain all of this focus and effort game after game -- mentally AND physically -- isn't surprising at all. He's in this role in the NBA for the very first time. Let him continue to get stronger and develop (exact same thing with PW).
I think his best hybrid guard comp is Jamal Murray, who's now 26 in his 7th NBA season. IMO Coby is his equal in a season or two, which would be a huge win.
I admit that I was never high on Coby, and that he appears to be having a breakout season. But Jamal Murray? That strikes me as a very optimistic outcome, as the gap is very large.
Murray is a tricky comp. He's probably the most "depends on what you mean" guy in the league. Even apart from the whole "plays with arguably the best offensive player ever", "was enrolled for years at Jokic university" thing. He's never made an all star team, and frankly hasn't come particularly close to deserving the nod yet. I thought this would be the year, but his minutes have been weirdly constrained. Then of course he's had a few playoff runs where he's absolutely looked like a multi year all star.
So I don't think the playoff version of Murray quite belongs in the conversation. That gap is indeed very large, as Jeremy Jet says. But regular season Murray? In production space, they are still relatively far apart. In development space, I think not so much. People talk about development being non-linear in the sense that no one improves every single year by equal increments from their rookie year to their peak. But it's also non-linear in the sense that players, particularly good players, sometimes develop along something like S-curves. A guy gets like 5% better at one or two things, and suddenly he's 40% better as a player. Part of the reason why no one knows how development works. It's really hard to understand something that behaves this way.
I wonder about Jalen Brunson as a possible upside comp. They have a similar package of strengths and weaknesses, though Coby's maybe a bit better on D and Brunson, who's 3 years older is obviously more accomplished offensively right now. Brunson put up a similar PER (14+ish) as a 23 year old.
B is stronger
OG to the Knicks is pretty interesting, especially since NY had to give up both Barrett and Quickley to get him.
Seems like a good trade for both sides. New York gets a good win-now piece and Toronto gets some promising young players to surround Barnes.
Could this be good for the Bulls in their pursuit of trading Zach? The common rumors regarding him and the Sixers were that the Sixers were interested in either Zach or Anunoby with OG being more desired for his defense. Now that he's off the table, does Zach look more attractive to them?
I guess, but I just don't find the package the sixers (or Lakers) can offer to be that compelling...
Neither do I. No package for Zach will be compelling because the Bulls are in a bad situation.
And Lavine isn't that great.
Bulls are a top 5 to top 10 "clutch time" team by nearly every performance metric:
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/clutch-advanced?dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT
DeMar and Caruso in particular are shooting incredibly well, both above 60% from the field (DeMar obviously on many more FGA); both are tied for 7th in 3pt% clutch shooting at 67% (Caruso on again shooting them at a higher rate). DeMar is unsurprisingly top 10 in FTA/36 in clutch situations (not everyone ahead of him wants to be, Rudy Gobert is one of them).
mission accomplished
Thoughts on the unplayaBulls:
1. Dalen Terry is still terrible. He plays hard, but that's quite literally his only redeeming quality, and half the time it's actually a detriment.
2. Not sure why Phillips lost his spot in the rotation to Terry. They're polar opposites. Phillips knows his limitations and plays within those, while still being fairly aggressive. Terry plays like he thinks he's a quality NBA player when he's nowhere near that good. If Phillips puts on some weight and keeps working on his jump shot, he'll immediately have a decent NBA career.
3. Terry Taylor plays hard and seems to have good fundamentals. Unfortunately he's the size of a shooting guard with none of the offensive skills.
4. Adama Sanogo was pretty decent. I'm not sure he's ever going to amount to much in the NBA since he lacks size and athleticism, but he's like Taylor in that he has good fundamentals. Plus, he at least has more size than Taylor. With Vooch out, I'm not entirely sure why Taylor is getting minutes over Sanogo. I'd like to see more minutes for him to see what he has.
If Pat misses time and with Coby's injuries mounting, things may get ugly quickly. Also, DeMar is human. If he keeps playing this many minutes, he's going to start suffering from injuries. January may get ugly before the trade deadline.
yeah these injuries have put us in this grim period in 'the discourse' where we have to either discuss these players at all or lie to ourselves that they're better than they've shown.