I get all the reasons it would be depressingly Bullsian, but Devin Carter does look like a very fun player, and I desperately want this team to become more fun. Ron Holland, Rob Dillingham both also look fun.
I remain impressed with Chicago's dedication to basketball players who cannot shoot the basketball. Which one of those players will they draft tomorrow? I do not know; the above-mentioned possibilities are ripe with impossibility!
Devin Carter's shot and release have the perfect conditions for smoking a nice flat-cut brisket: low and slow. Speaking of slow, can you imagine Zach Edey playing any playoff basketball? Like, imagine him on a court of NBA professionals who actually give a shit for 48 minutes at a time. Close your eyes, place him on a blank hardwood canvas and imagine him guarding any other player you can now think under six foot ten in space.
There's a scenario whereby I can imagine AK looking at this draft writ large and thinking, fuck it, none of these guys are good and if I don't ask for a first-round pick from OKC that's one less miss on my public record.
You are right. Devin Carter's release point for his outside shot is too low. More of a push shot than a jumper. Coby White as a low release point also but not as low as Carter's.
Some interesting stuff from KC today. First, he wrote a whole piece about Zach fitting well next to Giddey (something yfbb mentioned in this article). Is he just trying to find something to write about or is there some fire behind that smoke? To be fair, I actually think Zach and Giddey would play well off of each other, assuming they're surrounded by good defenders. With that being said, that would come at the expense of Coby which should absolutely not happen. I really hope AK doesn't talk himself into keeping Zach and trying to make things work.
The other interesting thing KC mentioned, and arguably more important, is DeMar's current extension talks. He said "As of late last week, little momentum existed for a new deal." Maybe I'm reading into this too much, but that sounds like DeMar doesn't seem particularly interested in returning to the Bulls. If that's the case, could Zach possibly be more interested in staying if he thinks he won't have to compete with DeMar for touches anymore?
I think letting Zach earn back some value a bit might make some sense. After the injury and a bad start to 2023, his value is at its lowest possible point. Maybe play him in a featuring role for 2 months and you'd be able to get some actual value back?
You'd think so, but I don't know if that's actually true. Many teams literally can't trade for him.
Of the remainder, good teams usually have good vibes and we have several years of evidence that suggest there aren't many teams eager to sign up for an Zach, who's an oft-injured sourpuss with precious little experience winning anything. With an outlandish contract.
I think the teams that might have interest in him are going to be pretty bad ones. Like Detroit. He looked at their interest and decided he'd get season-ending surgery instead.
I've tried thinking about this from pretty much every other team's perspective, and I just don't see why anyone would want to do business with this guy or with he Bulls. Just because the Bulls lock in and decide they have to get specific guys no matter the cost doesn't mean other teams do that. They're going to look at Zach and rightly conclude there are probably 20 or 30 better options for them.
You make some good points. New cba makes it a lot harder too. Good teams in 2nd apron can't aggregate salaries. And he does need a minimum level of value to be traded at all. I'm definitely in an assume to worst state of mind.
Agree. Doubt teams will take an $138 million dollar gamble without seeing LaVine on the court again. The Bulls should just keep LaVine and figure out how to make the best of the situation. Most likely won't have a choice.
This team is going to suck next year and everyone in the world has seen what Zach can do on a team that's going nowhere. He is not going to increase his value playing in basketball games. They're better off paying him $40 million not to play, and now that I stated that obvious truth I am feeling like a moron for caring about any of this. The people getting rich off it don't even give a shit about this team. Literally nobody cares.
I agree that there's the possibility Zach rehabs his value a little (only because it can't get any lower) if he stays on with the Bulls. But I also agree with Thomas that I don't think Zach would have any interest in doing it. Because I'm working off the assumption that he will refuse to play for the Bulls again, or at least refuse to put in any effort, I think he should be traded at pretty much any cost this summer. Unless that cost is the Bulls sending out compensation obviously. If that's the case, he can rot on the bench.
Might be better if DeRozan and LaVine don't play together. Both want to take a lot of shots. Maybe the chemistry will be better if the Bulls don't sign DeRozan.
Honestly? I would not throw in the Portland pick to Detroit I would , however, offer Portland the pick back, and the 11, for the 7 in this year's draft.
This draft is so flat... I'm not sure how much marginal difference there is between the 7 and 5 (or the 5 and 11 for that matter).
I think there's more value in getting off of Lavine and Vucevic.
I also keep wondering if there's a way to sell GSW on Vooch. CP3 straight up works. Then you hold CP3 until November and flip him to whatever contender is desperate for a point guard. GSW has really valued asset protection in the past. Plus maybe Looney prices himself out and they need a center who can (theoretically) shoot and swing the ball?
I think that only works if you renounce Chicago's free agents (DeMar but also Patrick Williams), the cap space that would absorb Pauls' +$10m over Vuc's salary is kind of a mirage and doesn't practically exist.
Paul's $30 million would also be pretty hard to move to any contender unless they're under the 2nd apron. Basically you have a market of 1 to 3 teams there that will be under the apron, have matching salaries and need a PG. More likely the Bulls would be buying him out and he'd go for the minimum somewhere.
Yeah... to clarify, I don't think it's remotely realistic that the Bulls could package Zach + #11 to move up.
Separately, I don't think we should package our pick to unload Zach, and also don't think moving up is probably worth it in this draft. But I'll admit that I've only put a Bulls level of effort (low) into scouting it.
My guess is that there's just no market for Lavine.
The only team I've thought of as maybe plausible that hasn't been mentioned was the Mavericks. They have a lot of guys with basically no value (Hardaway, Kleber, Josh Green just re-signed to a deal that doesn't look so great, Powell) that they could cobble together to. bring in Zach.
And, I don't really see other options for them to significantly add to their team which was good, but clearly not good enough.
I get it. And you know, for the most part, I think you're correct.
If I were to hazard a guess though, I would think that there are actually a few though. The Pistons come to mind, of course. Golden State has that disposable Paul contract, so I do anticipate some interest there. As a Klutch client, I expect the Lakers, and maybe Orlando.
I do not want to go to free agency without having that contract moved, because the doors tend to close pretty quickly. I think he'll be gone by morning, in my opinion.
The Bulls are rarely, if ever, players in the FA market. To my mind, they want to free up some cap space, resign a couple of players, if they can, and have the MLE to work with for a value acquisition.
I think Lavine will get moved, but yes, I don't expect a big return either.
Since AKME normally does nothing, who should they pick at 11? Kelel Ware? He’s a taller PW, shot-blocking defender with range and low motor. I’m sick of the small ball!
Filipowski is far too much like Vooch for me to want him - shorts arms and not athletic. I'd probably have nightmares if the Bulls drafted him. Can you imagine Vooch playing 30 minutes a game and then Vooch Lite playing the other 18? I'd gouge my eyes out.
Well, you know, the draft is an exercise in projection. Take a young kid with talent, and make an educated guess as to what he can be, not what he is.
He'll get stronger, tougher, a bit smarter, and much less prissy than Vooch. Or at least that's what I think I see. Or Williams will walk, he'll slide over to the four, and play there the next 10 seasons.
That's my exact problem though. You can't teach length and athleticism. Maybe Filipowski is tougher and less prissy, but those things don't change his lack of length and athleticism. The way the NBA is currently played, offensive skills at the center position are a luxury while defense is an absolute must, unless you're an insane offensive hub like Jokic or Embiid.
Brother, this is where our opinions are just going to have to differ. I'll concede the defensive challenges, but I'll take him anyway. I think he'll be fine at the 4, which to my mind, is what the Bulls should be thinking on.
Hmm maybe my comment came across aggressively. I was simply having a conversation regarding why I don't like Filipowski as the 11th pick. I wasn't trying to change your mind or say you're wrong or anything like that. That's the beauty of the draft! Different people like different prospects for various reasons.
Is there though? Like other than him being a decent three point shooter in his later twenties, has he really changed that much? I think what's changed more is how teams play now. Being talented on the offensive end made you pretty good 10 years ago. Now it doesn't unless you are superstar-level talented or if you're talented on both ends of the court. Centers can't really get away with being good on offense and bad on defense anymore.
Vooch looked better when he was younger because he had an entire (mediocre) team run through him and also because his natural skillset fit into the way the NBA was played back then. He has neither of those now, so he looks terrible. I don't think he's actually gotten that much worse though, other than his terrible three point shooting last year.
He had a down year last year, and I suspect that trend will continue, but that doesn't mean he's way worse now than he was in his twenties. He had arguably his best offensive year ever in 2022-2023 and he was still a net negative player.
I just read a rumor of Topic potentially going 18 to the magic. If here's there at 11, I want him. Would also work out perfectly with a one year tank because of torn ACL
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't really go in with the expectation that any of these guys will contribute in any positive way in their rookie season. A few do, we give them awards for not being total scrubs lol
The Year Two story would be interesting, but I fear that (a) not much data to draw on, and (b) guys who are drafted knowing they'll miss their whole first year are usually top picks, so it's an elite class anyway. Someone who was projected an end-of-1st or 2nd round pick just doesn't get drafted it seems.
I give European players more leeway there. They come from playing pro ball. Either way though, I think he's a top 5 talent and if he falls I'd either love or hate to see in black and red depending how mad I am at Jerry
Just watched the Giddey press conference. Maybe I've gotten too accustomed to AK's drivel, but I felt like Giddey handled himself well. I especially liked that he sort of just randomly called himself out on needing to become a better defender. We'll see if that actually translates to anything, but it was nice to see him say he needs to improve that aspect of his game after being targeted in the playoffs.
I feel a little bad in the sense that it's not Giddey's fault he should have been about the 3rd best asset we were getting back from trading Caruso. He's not without talent, but all I really care about is the fact that the Bulls won't get anywhere with him or anyone else until they start winning these trades.
It just says everything that they rolled out the welcome wagon now and not in July. It's the new phase of "Figuring Out What We Have." Giddey + everyone should be on the market. The Bulls suck, nobody should be untouchable and they should be churning the ever living fuck out of this roster to try to turn a pair of dimes into... not even a quarter, just five or six nickels. I can't even enjoy burying this team now that they are making tens of decisions because of the knowledge it will naturally morph into the next Stability arc.
It'd be one thing if Bulls believed they'd improve Giddey's value here. He probably will! This is like a struggling hitter being sent to AAA. But oops he's a restricted free agent. I'd say AK should try to lock in a low extension now, but Giddey's agent can negotiate 'you just traded Alex Caruso for this guy'
The Nets just traded Mikhal Bridges for five first rounders so they’ve gone full tank mode so that’s one less team for the Bulls have to worry about to make the play-in.
It's an overpay, it's desperate, but at least the Knicks are adding a legitimately good two-way player to a team that was on the verge of a conference finals appearance. I think it'll work out like the Wolves with Gobert.
So to recap, Bridges has made one all-defense team with zero all-star appearances, and was worth a player and five picks.
Caruso has made two all-defense teams (more recently than Bridges) and was worth one player and no picks.
AK should be embarrassed. No one is denying that Bridges is more valuable than Caruso, but this difference in return is so drastic that it’s not even funny.
now think of the difference in return between Bridges and LaVine!
it's actually somewhat encouraging that apparently Bridges called his shot to the Knicks and the Knicks STILL gave up all those picks. It shows these teams are still going to do things that don't make sense to get the players they want (for some reason AK wanted Giddey so badly this held true for much lower stakes), and maybe the Lakers will do so for LaVine
Above I said I wouldn't trade the pick to get rid of Zach. I'll just elaborate a little.
Trading Caruso for Giddey was a bad deal for reasons that are largely secondary to Giddey. He might be fine, or even good, but it's a bad trade because we gave more and got a lot less than a good GM is capable of getting.
Every time we do that our future gets worse. And often our present. And AKME does it a lot.
I am not a Zach Lavine guy. I very rarely like watching him play, and more frequently don't like watching him play. I could come at it from a lot of different reasons, but I just don't think he's all that great as a player. But... there is no downside to having him this year, because this year is already totally fucked. If he acts like a huge douche and we send him home or something, well... that's the position we were in last year. We'll live, Reinsdorf will probably get another insurance rebate when Zach elects to get season ending surgery to have his tonsils out, and it'll burn another year off his deal. Or, he'll recoup some of his value and we can unload him without giving up another pick when we're already in a substantial pick deficit.
I do agree that sending him home is more plausible than him "increasing his value" by playing here. I genuinely think he would harm development (or simply opportunities) for Coby, Ayo, and now Giddey. That doesn't really matter in the big picture either but at least it's a tangible benefit, whereas there is none for having LaVine coast through some games for a team he doesn't want to be on under a coach he doesn't like
but that's so much money and years remaining that I just don't see it being practical, and the offseason is where they can better make a deal taking back less current and future salary. If waiting until the season it's really waiting until next summer to move a contract that big, AND the Bulls don't want to be over the tax by the end of this season and probably not even heading into it (they'd actually be desperate, instead of self-imposed desperation with Giddey)
OK, it was just one reason not the primary reason why keeping Zach is impractical. I just don't see how the Bulls put him in the rotation, and then don't see the Bulls sending him home. It'd be more plausible if there was just a year left and greater possibility of an in-season trade.
Coby , Zach, Giddey, Pat , Vuc is your likely starting lineup.
Then you're got Ayo, whomever they draft, and whatever flotsam they get back for DeRozan. And I guess Phillips and Terry.
That's a bad team with Zach. A team that's going to get blown out a lot.
Without Zach... it's also a team that's bad and probably going to get blown out even more. On a lot of nights, those guys are gonna score like 80 points.
Bulls need a couple of tall athletic power forwards who can jump. Players such as Jaden McDaniels, Toppin, Jonathan Isaac. Just using them as examples. Was missing last season.
Beyond that, I just don't think the Bulls fan conditional "wisdom" of fans that there's a horrible danger in having multiple good offensive players is correct. I never have.
Believing that nonsense is why the Bulls offense is always terrible.
Meanwhile, while everyone tut-tutted the Mavericks, for example, for getting Kyrie to pair with Luka, they... went to the finals.
Do they fit together? Not all that well. Are they better off with some schlub instead of Kyrie? No.
Nobody's development is going to be hurt. The's guys are going to be capable of whatever they're capable of. Maybe their counting stats suffer for having to share the ball, but that should mean nothing to us and less than nothing to the Bulls.
that's one thing for us to reason, but another for the Bulls to
and yeah you're likely right that 'development' won't be hurt but perceived value will. I suppose if the Bulls can't assess value anyway that doesn't matter. But I think they like their twitter (@KCJHoop) putting out Coby White 20+ point streaks
I watched every Illini game last season and Shannon is going to be a very, very good NBA player. It's a shame he had to deal with bogus charges that hurt his reputation. He's old and might not be great fit on the Bulls, or good "value" where they're picking, but he's insanely athletic and can shoot and defend (the UConn game was an outlier). I also watched every Ayo game at Illinois and Shannon is on another level.
"He's old and might not be great fit on the Bulls, or good 'value' where they're picking"
This is all we need. Shannon may be a great pick up for someone, but it shouldn't be the Bulls. The team doesn't need another combo guard with a shaky jumper currently, and if they're trying to rebuild, there's no point in drafting someone that will be 24 before the season even begins.
Felt like posting this here because this has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on the Bulls subreddit, and there is plenty of dumb shit to choose from. This was a response to someone saying the Bridges trade only makes AKME look worse for not getting any picks in the Caruso trade:
"Bridges value isn’t in the same stratosphere as Caruso’s. I love the dude, but Bulls fans are completely delusional about what his value was. He’s an expiring contract, is 30, and is a total minus on the offensive end of the floor.
And I’m gonna say something completely blasphemous: Caruso was routinely bullied when guarding bigger players. Bridges is not only in a completely different league offensively, his defensive impact is also more valuable as he can guard 1-4. Wing defense is one of the most valuable traits in the nba. It’s why someone like Patrick Williams is about to get paid more than people think he deserves.
In summary, I’m thrilled we were able to snag a dude like Giddey for Caruso and people are genuinely fucking stupid for thinking we should have gotten more. This is coming from one of the bigger AKME haters over the last four years."
Just read the Grizzlies offered 2 first round picks and Tyus Jones for Caruso last year, and when turned down they went after Smart. That's the point. Caruso was worth 2 picks, Bridges is worth 5.
So last year Caruso was worth two first round picks and a legitimately good point guard. Ironically I was actually advocating pretty hard for the Bulls to go after Jones last summer. You could argue he wasn't worth as much this summer since he'd only have one year left on his contract, although he did improve on offense significantly last season, which should have helped raise his stock a bit.
We also know the Bulls were offered two first round picks at the deadline, as well as other offers of a single first round pick and young players, so he still had quite good trade value at the past deadline. Again, that obviously would go down some due to teams only getting him for one playoff run instead of two, but did it really go from those offers to Giddey and nothing else? Seems unlikely to me.
Especially when we look at this trade for Bridges. He's a borderline All-Star, so he's obviously much better than Caruso. But he's also the kind of player that New York felt would help push them over the top into contention and they were willing to majorly overpay to get him. OKC was in the same place. They were better than New York, so they didn't necessarily need someone of Bridges' caliber to push them over the top. Caruso is likely that guy for them, which means they probably would have been willing to overpay, especially when you consider their pick surplus.
Not only did they not overpay, but the only thing they gave up was a guy that didn't really fit in their system and was likely going to warrant a fairly large pay raise. Not to mention, they also didn't have the leverage since Giddey had requested a trade. Nearly every factor heavily favored the Bulls and they still somehow came away with a disappointing return.
I would like to clarify that my frustration is not with Giddey. I'm actually excited to see how he does. I just don't understand how he was the only piece the Bulls got in return for Caruso.
When Giddey was drafted, they showed those little highlights and it freaked me out that he shot from range by holding the ball REALLY far in front of him. It's how kids shoot when they're not strong enough. We had this discussion at the time I think on BaB: as much as you can judge anyone from those little clips of the Australian league or NCAA or whatever, he'd have to learn how to shoot again because you can't get away with shooting from your shoulder in the NBA. They'll block it. It explains, I think, why he shies away from taking anything but wide open 3s.
I've read even his supporters say basically his shot is broken and needs to be re-learned. In a way that's positive because if it's broken you know what's wrong. But considering the team he had and who they had as a shot doctor on staff, that is pretty scary.
I think he'll fill the boxscore because he's tall and from all accounts has always been a fantastic passer and he'll get a ton of minutes (Billy seems to work out these "deals" with Karnisovas where he plays whoever they want until the all-star break and whoever he wants after). But the yardstick is gonna be different: it's gonna be how the shot looks and how the defense looks. If the shot is still broken and the defense is still bad enough that he's hunted, that's gonna be bad. Worse if he puts up great boxscore stats and whoever next year's Detroit is decides to put some pepper on an offer sheet.
Here's what nobody wants to hear but they know it's right: the Bulls should have been holding an auction this summer not just for Caruso but for Coby White. Bridges has a great contract. Coby makes less than half of it. Almost any team can match a single salary for him, and it's a highly compact and controlled contract which is important if you're a contender whose two best players make > $40m and eat up more than half of the cap.
That's worth a lot, as we just saw, enough to restock your draft pick supply that you squandered on a terrible Big Three.
Please understand: I am very aware of the differences between Bridges, Caruso and White. But each of those players are a solution to the question of how does a team bearing facing severe financial restraints add talent that can contribute to a championship in the next two years? The Lakers do not want to add a $45 million player to their roster to average 18 points on limited touches because their two best players get the bulk of them. How do you add that third guy? Bridges is that guy, Coby would be that guy.
But anyway Karnisovas should not be allowed anywhere near these deals, and that's the real fucked up part about it.
This is absolutely correct. As much as I love Coby, he's a great asset for this team. More so than AC because he's on a better/longer contract and he's so much younger and has more upside. But we know AK doesn't deal assets at their height of their value.
I think caruso had more value with other GMs as a win now player. I get the sense people are looking at Coby and thinking do it again and prove it's real
That is quite possible, but I do still believe Coby could get a very respectable haul this summer if AK decided to shop him. Or at least he could if the team had a decent FO.
Maybe, but I think they saw how Coby looked next to Zach LaVine and Nikola Vucevic. Now line him up next to Lebron James and Anthony Davis. All he has to do is hit 3s, take charges, pass the ball, all of which he has years of doing. I think the Lakers make that deal tomorrow, because the best part about it is you can still make another deal on Thursday. It doesn't handicap you at all.
Ah okay. I was just going off of what was said above. To be fair, at that time no one knew Coby was going to take off the way he did. So it probably wasn't as bad of a deal as it seems now at least.
The players are comparable, but it's the situation that is comparable! Both teams are looking for that "over-the-top" player that fits into an existing thing. They both got it. It's just that one team also got better through subtraction at the same time.
Assuming you meant to say "the players aren't comparable" I completely agree. Obviously Caruso isn't nearly as good as Bridges. The point isn't that the Bulls should have gotten five first round picks for Caruso.
As TianDogg said, the Bulls had all the leverage in the world and still somehow managed to get fleeced. Not only did they not make the Thunder overpay (something the Thunder were probably prepared to do thanks to their mountain of draft capital), they didn't even come out even. They somehow managed to lose a trade they had all of the leverage in.
You are correct in that after PWilliams was injured the Bulls have no actual forwards aside from Torrey Craig. Caruso was having to guard Tatum, Leonard, Lebron, Zion, etc. Bulls need some power forwards some 4s.
It's not so much who they targeted and who they gave up, it's the utter lack of ability to understand who had leverage and extract value out of it. If Giddey is a superstar in a few years, that's awesome. But maybe we coulda had a superstar and 2 picks.
anuoby reaches insane deal(personally) and the Mavs shopping Hardaway... man he played like garbage in the playoff games I watched....So thats the type of player the Bulls will target.
I get all the reasons it would be depressingly Bullsian, but Devin Carter does look like a very fun player, and I desperately want this team to become more fun. Ron Holland, Rob Dillingham both also look fun.
I remain impressed with Chicago's dedication to basketball players who cannot shoot the basketball. Which one of those players will they draft tomorrow? I do not know; the above-mentioned possibilities are ripe with impossibility!
Devin Carter's shot and release have the perfect conditions for smoking a nice flat-cut brisket: low and slow. Speaking of slow, can you imagine Zach Edey playing any playoff basketball? Like, imagine him on a court of NBA professionals who actually give a shit for 48 minutes at a time. Close your eyes, place him on a blank hardwood canvas and imagine him guarding any other player you can now think under six foot ten in space.
There's a scenario whereby I can imagine AK looking at this draft writ large and thinking, fuck it, none of these guys are good and if I don't ask for a first-round pick from OKC that's one less miss on my public record.
You are right. Devin Carter's release point for his outside shot is too low. More of a push shot than a jumper. Coby White as a low release point also but not as low as Carter's.
Some interesting stuff from KC today. First, he wrote a whole piece about Zach fitting well next to Giddey (something yfbb mentioned in this article). Is he just trying to find something to write about or is there some fire behind that smoke? To be fair, I actually think Zach and Giddey would play well off of each other, assuming they're surrounded by good defenders. With that being said, that would come at the expense of Coby which should absolutely not happen. I really hope AK doesn't talk himself into keeping Zach and trying to make things work.
The other interesting thing KC mentioned, and arguably more important, is DeMar's current extension talks. He said "As of late last week, little momentum existed for a new deal." Maybe I'm reading into this too much, but that sounds like DeMar doesn't seem particularly interested in returning to the Bulls. If that's the case, could Zach possibly be more interested in staying if he thinks he won't have to compete with DeMar for touches anymore?
Thinking LaVine would want to play for the Bulls any longer shows to me that KC is farther from this team than ever
To me this says the Bulls are trying to convince Zach to play and this is outreach.
Which I think is pretty dumb but that's what I expect from this team
I think letting Zach earn back some value a bit might make some sense. After the injury and a bad start to 2023, his value is at its lowest possible point. Maybe play him in a featuring role for 2 months and you'd be able to get some actual value back?
The question is does he have any interest in doing this? The lower his value is, the better the team he gets traded to will be
You'd think so, but I don't know if that's actually true. Many teams literally can't trade for him.
Of the remainder, good teams usually have good vibes and we have several years of evidence that suggest there aren't many teams eager to sign up for an Zach, who's an oft-injured sourpuss with precious little experience winning anything. With an outlandish contract.
I think the teams that might have interest in him are going to be pretty bad ones. Like Detroit. He looked at their interest and decided he'd get season-ending surgery instead.
I've tried thinking about this from pretty much every other team's perspective, and I just don't see why anyone would want to do business with this guy or with he Bulls. Just because the Bulls lock in and decide they have to get specific guys no matter the cost doesn't mean other teams do that. They're going to look at Zach and rightly conclude there are probably 20 or 30 better options for them.
You make some good points. New cba makes it a lot harder too. Good teams in 2nd apron can't aggregate salaries. And he does need a minimum level of value to be traded at all. I'm definitely in an assume to worst state of mind.
Agree. Doubt teams will take an $138 million dollar gamble without seeing LaVine on the court again. The Bulls should just keep LaVine and figure out how to make the best of the situation. Most likely won't have a choice.
It just takes 1 team with a dumb FO to get desperate. Oh wait that was us.
This team is going to suck next year and everyone in the world has seen what Zach can do on a team that's going nowhere. He is not going to increase his value playing in basketball games. They're better off paying him $40 million not to play, and now that I stated that obvious truth I am feeling like a moron for caring about any of this. The people getting rich off it don't even give a shit about this team. Literally nobody cares.
I agree that there's the possibility Zach rehabs his value a little (only because it can't get any lower) if he stays on with the Bulls. But I also agree with Thomas that I don't think Zach would have any interest in doing it. Because I'm working off the assumption that he will refuse to play for the Bulls again, or at least refuse to put in any effort, I think he should be traded at pretty much any cost this summer. Unless that cost is the Bulls sending out compensation obviously. If that's the case, he can rot on the bench.
Agreed. Would be worth it for the Bulls to bring back LaVine. Can't be denied that LaVine is an amazing scorer and athlete when healthy.
I can deny it, with of the start of last season as evidence
Might be better if DeRozan and LaVine don't play together. Both want to take a lot of shots. Maybe the chemistry will be better if the Bulls don't sign DeRozan.
Let me guess. Lavine, and the 11, for the #5 from Detroit.
This would be a home run IMO
yeah I think that would be good. You could even throw in the Portland pick.
Honestly? I would not throw in the Portland pick to Detroit I would , however, offer Portland the pick back, and the 11, for the 7 in this year's draft.
This draft is so flat... I'm not sure how much marginal difference there is between the 7 and 5 (or the 5 and 11 for that matter).
I think there's more value in getting off of Lavine and Vucevic.
I also keep wondering if there's a way to sell GSW on Vooch. CP3 straight up works. Then you hold CP3 until November and flip him to whatever contender is desperate for a point guard. GSW has really valued asset protection in the past. Plus maybe Looney prices himself out and they need a center who can (theoretically) shoot and swing the ball?
I think that only works if you renounce Chicago's free agents (DeMar but also Patrick Williams), the cap space that would absorb Pauls' +$10m over Vuc's salary is kind of a mirage and doesn't practically exist.
Paul's $30 million would also be pretty hard to move to any contender unless they're under the 2nd apron. Basically you have a market of 1 to 3 teams there that will be under the apron, have matching salaries and need a PG. More likely the Bulls would be buying him out and he'd go for the minimum somewhere.
I think they just picked up Looney's option.
Why would the Bulls or any team want CP3? CP3 is 39 years old.
can you even dump all that salary for that
Detroit has the cap space (because they have so few good players)
Mmm... cap space.
You know, if I could ever flip Lavine to the Spurs for Collins, straight up, I would drive homey to the airport myself.
Would you have to listen to Zach criticize your driving and complain that the next lane over was faster before you got into it
I don't see a reason to do this.
Sheppard is gonna be gone at #5 I'm pretty sure, and he's the only guy I'm confident about being better than the guys like to be available at #11.
I'd do it without the swap, just a get out of LaVine-jail free card
I dont see any reason to trade the pick to unload Zach.
OK but that proposal had the Bulls improving their pick and not sending any out
Yeah... to clarify, I don't think it's remotely realistic that the Bulls could package Zach + #11 to move up.
Separately, I don't think we should package our pick to unload Zach, and also don't think moving up is probably worth it in this draft. But I'll admit that I've only put a Bulls level of effort (low) into scouting it.
My guess is that there's just no market for Lavine.
The only team I've thought of as maybe plausible that hasn't been mentioned was the Mavericks. They have a lot of guys with basically no value (Hardaway, Kleber, Josh Green just re-signed to a deal that doesn't look so great, Powell) that they could cobble together to. bring in Zach.
And, I don't really see other options for them to significantly add to their team which was good, but clearly not good enough.
I get it. And you know, for the most part, I think you're correct.
If I were to hazard a guess though, I would think that there are actually a few though. The Pistons come to mind, of course. Golden State has that disposable Paul contract, so I do anticipate some interest there. As a Klutch client, I expect the Lakers, and maybe Orlando.
I do not want to go to free agency without having that contract moved, because the doors tend to close pretty quickly. I think he'll be gone by morning, in my opinion.
Even if we trade Zach, we aren't gonna have obvious options in free agency that I can see, so it's not really an issue.
And GSW is so far over the tax, that if they add a guy, it will have to be a huge difference-maker. Not Zach.
And Orlando is just a non-starter because Zach's PO would blow up their ability to resign all their good young guys.
The Bulls are rarely, if ever, players in the FA market. To my mind, they want to free up some cap space, resign a couple of players, if they can, and have the MLE to work with for a value acquisition.
I think Lavine will get moved, but yes, I don't expect a big return either.
Since AKME normally does nothing, who should they pick at 11? Kelel Ware? He’s a taller PW, shot-blocking defender with range and low motor. I’m sick of the small ball!
Well, if we're doing an impromptu mock, I'd take Filipowski at 11. A promising 4/5, who rebounds well, and with an improving shot.
God bless the Bulls, but too many guards.
Filipowski is far too much like Vooch for me to want him - shorts arms and not athletic. I'd probably have nightmares if the Bulls drafted him. Can you imagine Vooch playing 30 minutes a game and then Vooch Lite playing the other 18? I'd gouge my eyes out.
Well, you know, the draft is an exercise in projection. Take a young kid with talent, and make an educated guess as to what he can be, not what he is.
He'll get stronger, tougher, a bit smarter, and much less prissy than Vooch. Or at least that's what I think I see. Or Williams will walk, he'll slide over to the four, and play there the next 10 seasons.
That's my exact problem though. You can't teach length and athleticism. Maybe Filipowski is tougher and less prissy, but those things don't change his lack of length and athleticism. The way the NBA is currently played, offensive skills at the center position are a luxury while defense is an absolute must, unless you're an insane offensive hub like Jokic or Embiid.
Brother, this is where our opinions are just going to have to differ. I'll concede the defensive challenges, but I'll take him anyway. I think he'll be fine at the 4, which to my mind, is what the Bulls should be thinking on.
Sorry.
Hmm maybe my comment came across aggressively. I was simply having a conversation regarding why I don't like Filipowski as the 11th pick. I wasn't trying to change your mind or say you're wrong or anything like that. That's the beauty of the draft! Different people like different prospects for various reasons.
There's a big difference between Vuc in his 20s and now to be fair
Is there though? Like other than him being a decent three point shooter in his later twenties, has he really changed that much? I think what's changed more is how teams play now. Being talented on the offensive end made you pretty good 10 years ago. Now it doesn't unless you are superstar-level talented or if you're talented on both ends of the court. Centers can't really get away with being good on offense and bad on defense anymore.
Vooch looked better when he was younger because he had an entire (mediocre) team run through him and also because his natural skillset fit into the way the NBA was played back then. He has neither of those now, so he looks terrible. I don't think he's actually gotten that much worse though, other than his terrible three point shooting last year.
I mean just look at his fg% over time
FG% in Orlando: .499
FG% in Chicago: .490
3pt FG% in Orlando: .353
3pt FG% in Chicago: .329
Fga in Orlando: 15.2
FGA in Chicago: 15.6
He had a down year last year, and I suspect that trend will continue, but that doesn't mean he's way worse now than he was in his twenties. He had arguably his best offensive year ever in 2022-2023 and he was still a net negative player.
I just read a rumor of Topic potentially going 18 to the magic. If here's there at 11, I want him. Would also work out perfectly with a one year tank because of torn ACL
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't really go in with the expectation that any of these guys will contribute in any positive way in their rookie season. A few do, we give them awards for not being total scrubs lol
The Year Two story would be interesting, but I fear that (a) not much data to draw on, and (b) guys who are drafted knowing they'll miss their whole first year are usually top picks, so it's an elite class anyway. Someone who was projected an end-of-1st or 2nd round pick just doesn't get drafted it seems.
I give European players more leeway there. They come from playing pro ball. Either way though, I think he's a top 5 talent and if he falls I'd either love or hate to see in black and red depending how mad I am at Jerry
It will be agonizing to hear Stacey King bellow out "Getting the sriracha for Hot Topic!"
(I know it's not pronounced that way)
Just watched the Giddey press conference. Maybe I've gotten too accustomed to AK's drivel, but I felt like Giddey handled himself well. I especially liked that he sort of just randomly called himself out on needing to become a better defender. We'll see if that actually translates to anything, but it was nice to see him say he needs to improve that aspect of his game after being targeted in the playoffs.
I feel a little bad in the sense that it's not Giddey's fault he should have been about the 3rd best asset we were getting back from trading Caruso. He's not without talent, but all I really care about is the fact that the Bulls won't get anywhere with him or anyone else until they start winning these trades.
It just says everything that they rolled out the welcome wagon now and not in July. It's the new phase of "Figuring Out What We Have." Giddey + everyone should be on the market. The Bulls suck, nobody should be untouchable and they should be churning the ever living fuck out of this roster to try to turn a pair of dimes into... not even a quarter, just five or six nickels. I can't even enjoy burying this team now that they are making tens of decisions because of the knowledge it will naturally morph into the next Stability arc.
It'd be one thing if Bulls believed they'd improve Giddey's value here. He probably will! This is like a struggling hitter being sent to AAA. But oops he's a restricted free agent. I'd say AK should try to lock in a low extension now, but Giddey's agent can negotiate 'you just traded Alex Caruso for this guy'
The Nets just traded Mikhal Bridges for five first rounders so they’ve gone full tank mode so that’s one less team for the Bulls have to worry about to make the play-in.
That’s like 10 giddeys. Caruso was clearly a 5 giddey player, Bulls have zero sense of Market.
I just saw that and like what? that seems absolutely insane.
Not as insane as the bulls trading Caruso for giddey to the team that has too many picks, and walking with not a single one...
Yes but I've already said that in the previous threads! Both are nuts.
It's an overpay, it's desperate, but at least the Knicks are adding a legitimately good two-way player to a team that was on the verge of a conference finals appearance. I think it'll work out like the Wolves with Gobert.
So to recap, Bridges has made one all-defense team with zero all-star appearances, and was worth a player and five picks.
Caruso has made two all-defense teams (more recently than Bridges) and was worth one player and no picks.
AK should be embarrassed. No one is denying that Bridges is more valuable than Caruso, but this difference in return is so drastic that it’s not even funny.
I mean both trades are embarrassing for opposite reasons.
now think of the difference in return between Bridges and LaVine!
it's actually somewhat encouraging that apparently Bridges called his shot to the Knicks and the Knicks STILL gave up all those picks. It shows these teams are still going to do things that don't make sense to get the players they want (for some reason AK wanted Giddey so badly this held true for much lower stakes), and maybe the Lakers will do so for LaVine
Above I said I wouldn't trade the pick to get rid of Zach. I'll just elaborate a little.
Trading Caruso for Giddey was a bad deal for reasons that are largely secondary to Giddey. He might be fine, or even good, but it's a bad trade because we gave more and got a lot less than a good GM is capable of getting.
Every time we do that our future gets worse. And often our present. And AKME does it a lot.
I am not a Zach Lavine guy. I very rarely like watching him play, and more frequently don't like watching him play. I could come at it from a lot of different reasons, but I just don't think he's all that great as a player. But... there is no downside to having him this year, because this year is already totally fucked. If he acts like a huge douche and we send him home or something, well... that's the position we were in last year. We'll live, Reinsdorf will probably get another insurance rebate when Zach elects to get season ending surgery to have his tonsils out, and it'll burn another year off his deal. Or, he'll recoup some of his value and we can unload him without giving up another pick when we're already in a substantial pick deficit.
I do agree that sending him home is more plausible than him "increasing his value" by playing here. I genuinely think he would harm development (or simply opportunities) for Coby, Ayo, and now Giddey. That doesn't really matter in the big picture either but at least it's a tangible benefit, whereas there is none for having LaVine coast through some games for a team he doesn't want to be on under a coach he doesn't like
but that's so much money and years remaining that I just don't see it being practical, and the offseason is where they can better make a deal taking back less current and future salary. If waiting until the season it's really waiting until next summer to move a contract that big, AND the Bulls don't want to be over the tax by the end of this season and probably not even heading into it (they'd actually be desperate, instead of self-imposed desperation with Giddey)
The Bulls have immediate outs from getting out from under the LT.
1. They could waive and stretch Lonzo (and then apply to have his salary removed from the cap entirely and likely receive it).
2. They can (and probably should at this point) arrange a S&T of DeMar.
Right now, they have something like $35M available with which to re-sign Will and DeMar. If that's what they even want to do.
If they waive Ball, even without relying on getting him removed from the cap, this would open up another =$14M.
But $49M is plenty for them to work with to re-sign those two and still say under the tax.
OK, it was just one reason not the primary reason why keeping Zach is impractical. I just don't see how the Bulls put him in the rotation, and then don't see the Bulls sending him home. It'd be more plausible if there was just a year left and greater possibility of an in-season trade.
Coby , Zach, Giddey, Pat , Vuc is your likely starting lineup.
Then you're got Ayo, whomever they draft, and whatever flotsam they get back for DeRozan. And I guess Phillips and Terry.
That's a bad team with Zach. A team that's going to get blown out a lot.
Without Zach... it's also a team that's bad and probably going to get blown out even more. On a lot of nights, those guys are gonna score like 80 points.
Bulls need a couple of tall athletic power forwards who can jump. Players such as Jaden McDaniels, Toppin, Jonathan Isaac. Just using them as examples. Was missing last season.
Unless like you suggest the Bulls just throw away this season regardless, but that's also looking implausible
The Bulls have already thrown away this season.
Beyond that, I just don't think the Bulls fan conditional "wisdom" of fans that there's a horrible danger in having multiple good offensive players is correct. I never have.
Believing that nonsense is why the Bulls offense is always terrible.
Meanwhile, while everyone tut-tutted the Mavericks, for example, for getting Kyrie to pair with Luka, they... went to the finals.
Do they fit together? Not all that well. Are they better off with some schlub instead of Kyrie? No.
Nobody's development is going to be hurt. The's guys are going to be capable of whatever they're capable of. Maybe their counting stats suffer for having to share the ball, but that should mean nothing to us and less than nothing to the Bulls.
that's one thing for us to reason, but another for the Bulls to
and yeah you're likely right that 'development' won't be hurt but perceived value will. I suppose if the Bulls can't assess value anyway that doesn't matter. But I think they like their twitter (@KCJHoop) putting out Coby White 20+ point streaks
Overall, my draft board is probably something like
Tier I: Best upside, high floor, best probability of success
* Sheppard
Tier II: Some upside, OK floor, lower probability of success
* Sarr
* Buzelis?
* Holland
* Dillingham
* Topic
* Cody Williams
* Devin Carter
Tier III: Guys who can be picked later who will probably have just as much chance to successful as guys who are picked earlier
* Tyler Smith
* DaRon Holmes II
* Kyshon George
* Yves Missi
* Bobi Klintman
Tier IV: limited upside, OK floor, high probability of success
* Clingan
* Castle
* Knecht
Like Tyler Smith a lot.
Latest from Sam Vecinie:
"Terrence Shannon’s name is the one I’ve heard most associated with the Bulls over the last 48 hours. "
says he's heard Shannon going as high as 11 but suggest Bulls should easily be able to trade down
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5592856/2024/06/26/nba-mock-draft-2024-vecenie-hawks/
If I could go back in time and either kill baby Hitler or tell five year old me not to be a Bulls fan, it would be a genuinely tough decision.
I don't know how to feel about Shannon. Obviously he's been really productive, but ... sigh.
I watched every Illini game last season and Shannon is going to be a very, very good NBA player. It's a shame he had to deal with bogus charges that hurt his reputation. He's old and might not be great fit on the Bulls, or good "value" where they're picking, but he's insanely athletic and can shoot and defend (the UConn game was an outlier). I also watched every Ayo game at Illinois and Shannon is on another level.
"He's old and might not be great fit on the Bulls, or good 'value' where they're picking"
This is all we need. Shannon may be a great pick up for someone, but it shouldn't be the Bulls. The team doesn't need another combo guard with a shaky jumper currently, and if they're trying to rebuild, there's no point in drafting someone that will be 24 before the season even begins.
Felt like posting this here because this has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on the Bulls subreddit, and there is plenty of dumb shit to choose from. This was a response to someone saying the Bridges trade only makes AKME look worse for not getting any picks in the Caruso trade:
"Bridges value isn’t in the same stratosphere as Caruso’s. I love the dude, but Bulls fans are completely delusional about what his value was. He’s an expiring contract, is 30, and is a total minus on the offensive end of the floor.
And I’m gonna say something completely blasphemous: Caruso was routinely bullied when guarding bigger players. Bridges is not only in a completely different league offensively, his defensive impact is also more valuable as he can guard 1-4. Wing defense is one of the most valuable traits in the nba. It’s why someone like Patrick Williams is about to get paid more than people think he deserves.
In summary, I’m thrilled we were able to snag a dude like Giddey for Caruso and people are genuinely fucking stupid for thinking we should have gotten more. This is coming from one of the bigger AKME haters over the last four years."
Just read the Grizzlies offered 2 first round picks and Tyus Jones for Caruso last year, and when turned down they went after Smart. That's the point. Caruso was worth 2 picks, Bridges is worth 5.
So last year Caruso was worth two first round picks and a legitimately good point guard. Ironically I was actually advocating pretty hard for the Bulls to go after Jones last summer. You could argue he wasn't worth as much this summer since he'd only have one year left on his contract, although he did improve on offense significantly last season, which should have helped raise his stock a bit.
We also know the Bulls were offered two first round picks at the deadline, as well as other offers of a single first round pick and young players, so he still had quite good trade value at the past deadline. Again, that obviously would go down some due to teams only getting him for one playoff run instead of two, but did it really go from those offers to Giddey and nothing else? Seems unlikely to me.
Especially when we look at this trade for Bridges. He's a borderline All-Star, so he's obviously much better than Caruso. But he's also the kind of player that New York felt would help push them over the top into contention and they were willing to majorly overpay to get him. OKC was in the same place. They were better than New York, so they didn't necessarily need someone of Bridges' caliber to push them over the top. Caruso is likely that guy for them, which means they probably would have been willing to overpay, especially when you consider their pick surplus.
Not only did they not overpay, but the only thing they gave up was a guy that didn't really fit in their system and was likely going to warrant a fairly large pay raise. Not to mention, they also didn't have the leverage since Giddey had requested a trade. Nearly every factor heavily favored the Bulls and they still somehow came away with a disappointing return.
I would like to clarify that my frustration is not with Giddey. I'm actually excited to see how he does. I just don't understand how he was the only piece the Bulls got in return for Caruso.
my frustration is both. I don't think Giddey is an NBA level starter
he's likely a project. Which the Bulls love. He had flashes in the OKC series of good and not good.
So he'll fit right in as a starter in Chicago! We sure do love our non-starting-caliber starters.
When Giddey was drafted, they showed those little highlights and it freaked me out that he shot from range by holding the ball REALLY far in front of him. It's how kids shoot when they're not strong enough. We had this discussion at the time I think on BaB: as much as you can judge anyone from those little clips of the Australian league or NCAA or whatever, he'd have to learn how to shoot again because you can't get away with shooting from your shoulder in the NBA. They'll block it. It explains, I think, why he shies away from taking anything but wide open 3s.
I've read even his supporters say basically his shot is broken and needs to be re-learned. In a way that's positive because if it's broken you know what's wrong. But considering the team he had and who they had as a shot doctor on staff, that is pretty scary.
I think he'll fill the boxscore because he's tall and from all accounts has always been a fantastic passer and he'll get a ton of minutes (Billy seems to work out these "deals" with Karnisovas where he plays whoever they want until the all-star break and whoever he wants after). But the yardstick is gonna be different: it's gonna be how the shot looks and how the defense looks. If the shot is still broken and the defense is still bad enough that he's hunted, that's gonna be bad. Worse if he puts up great boxscore stats and whoever next year's Detroit is decides to put some pepper on an offer sheet.
Here's what nobody wants to hear but they know it's right: the Bulls should have been holding an auction this summer not just for Caruso but for Coby White. Bridges has a great contract. Coby makes less than half of it. Almost any team can match a single salary for him, and it's a highly compact and controlled contract which is important if you're a contender whose two best players make > $40m and eat up more than half of the cap.
That's worth a lot, as we just saw, enough to restock your draft pick supply that you squandered on a terrible Big Three.
Please understand: I am very aware of the differences between Bridges, Caruso and White. But each of those players are a solution to the question of how does a team bearing facing severe financial restraints add talent that can contribute to a championship in the next two years? The Lakers do not want to add a $45 million player to their roster to average 18 points on limited touches because their two best players get the bulk of them. How do you add that third guy? Bridges is that guy, Coby would be that guy.
But anyway Karnisovas should not be allowed anywhere near these deals, and that's the real fucked up part about it.
This is absolutely correct. As much as I love Coby, he's a great asset for this team. More so than AC because he's on a better/longer contract and he's so much younger and has more upside. But we know AK doesn't deal assets at their height of their value.
I think caruso had more value with other GMs as a win now player. I get the sense people are looking at Coby and thinking do it again and prove it's real
That is quite possible, but I do still believe Coby could get a very respectable haul this summer if AK decided to shop him. Or at least he could if the team had a decent FO.
Maybe, but I think they saw how Coby looked next to Zach LaVine and Nikola Vucevic. Now line him up next to Lebron James and Anthony Davis. All he has to do is hit 3s, take charges, pass the ball, all of which he has years of doing. I think the Lakers make that deal tomorrow, because the best part about it is you can still make another deal on Thursday. It doesn't handicap you at all.
That wasn't the deal. Memphis wanted Coby too. That's a bad deal for the Bulls.
Ah okay. I was just going off of what was said above. To be fair, at that time no one knew Coby was going to take off the way he did. So it probably wasn't as bad of a deal as it seems now at least.
They wanted Caruso and Coby White for Tyus Jones and 2 first round picks.
The players are comparable, but it's the situation that is comparable! Both teams are looking for that "over-the-top" player that fits into an existing thing. They both got it. It's just that one team also got better through subtraction at the same time.
Assuming you meant to say "the players aren't comparable" I completely agree. Obviously Caruso isn't nearly as good as Bridges. The point isn't that the Bulls should have gotten five first round picks for Caruso.
As TianDogg said, the Bulls had all the leverage in the world and still somehow managed to get fleeced. Not only did they not make the Thunder overpay (something the Thunder were probably prepared to do thanks to their mountain of draft capital), they didn't even come out even. They somehow managed to lose a trade they had all of the leverage in.
You are correct in that after PWilliams was injured the Bulls have no actual forwards aside from Torrey Craig. Caruso was having to guard Tatum, Leonard, Lebron, Zion, etc. Bulls need some power forwards some 4s.
It's not so much who they targeted and who they gave up, it's the utter lack of ability to understand who had leverage and extract value out of it. If Giddey is a superstar in a few years, that's awesome. But maybe we coulda had a superstar and 2 picks.
Exactly!
k durant is available... give them lavine and call it good. (ok not happening)
I feel like I'm going crazy reading this KC line yesterday:
>"following last month's lottery, the Bulls exuded confidence that they would find value if they stayed at #11"
when has AK ever "exuded confidence"? Did he blink extra-creepily or mumble for an exceptionally-long time?
And perhaps we can remember 12 months ago when it was also inferred confidence after saying "😏watch what I do in Free Agency😏"
exude, extrude, it's tough to know which one to use right here. I think KC meant extrude. AK definitely extrudes confidence.
anuoby reaches insane deal(personally) and the Mavs shopping Hardaway... man he played like garbage in the playoff games I watched....So thats the type of player the Bulls will target.
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