The trade is already being whitewashed as doing a solid for DeMar DeRozan.
If the Bulls were a normal team they would have taken the salary back and gotten the pick. Just like this scrappy young front office in San Antonio did three years ago when they were sign-and-trading a guy named DeMar DeRozan.
Reinsdorf has pocketed literally hundreds of millions in luxury tax payments, to say nothing of the years when he had a bottom 5 payroll before the CBA forced him to pay up with a minimum team salary. This would be the time to invest it back. Their refusal to do so is a clear indication, as if we needed one, that they're not going to absorb other teams' bad contracts to accumulate picks and speed up the process of rebuilding. It's going to be long and they're going to need to be very lucky again.
How are the Bulls ever actually going to rebuild? They somehow have neither young soon to be stars or hoard of pics. Even if they tank and get one star, the path to contending vs Teams with multiple talented players seems rough at best.
Yeah the prudent move would have been get the first round swap rights at least and barnes and then move barnes to a contender. Barnes himself would likely yield a second rounder.
Think of this way we traded for 2 of lebrons kids. what's not to love about that? lol This franchise is trash. I'm rooting for the Twolves and Terrence Shannon next year.
In a vacuum, I’m good with playing the young guys, losing a lot of games, and being in a position to keep our pick in a great draft.
With that said, the elephant in the room is that we’re now here due to AK’s failures. And this isn’t just a small failure. Trading away huge draft capital and committing big money to 2 borderline all-stars (LaVine and Vuc) and not winning a single playoff series is a massive failure. It’s a level of failure that should result in AK’s dismissal.
So, my feelings are mixed. I’m happy to watch the young guys. I’m happy to watch Billy coach them, because I think he’s good with young players. But I don’t think AK should be here anymore.
I'm not excited to watch the young guys because none of them have star potential. If anything the added responsibility will expose the few who've made progress so far (I guess only Coby White is good enough to be exposed, though with Pat some are just slow learners). As much as it was galling to hear the Bulls front office leak to Darnell Mayberry about obligation to the patrons, they're correct that a non-competitive team like this will be tuned out
Also I think Buzelis is so raw and young Donovan isn't going to have him in the rotation. He's only played young guys out of necessity, and the front office doesn't have sway over him to push for in-court embarrassment, he will try to keep things respectable as possible
This team is going to win around 28 games at the most even if LaVine and Vuc are still here. There are like 3 forwards on this entire roster and one of them (Craig) might not even be here by the time the season begins.
If Buzelis isn’t getting at least 10 minutes per game, then I don’t know what we’re doing here.
I don't know what we're doing here. At least with respect to building a basketball team. The mission to cost cost to offset to impending decline in sales is pretty obvious.
But this team doesn't have any discernible plan or philosophy that I can tell. It's more accurate to me to call this team a prebuilding team than a rebuilding team. Compared to a rebuild, it's much more akin to, say, the 98-99 Bulls, when they were trotting out Randy Brown and Ron Harper, Brent Barry and Kukoc until they could unload Kukoc.
Nobody on this team is gonna be here when they're good again.
At this point, they are very much like Wizards of last year. Except, the Bulls are still saddled with LaVine's salary. Washington has/had to get rid of/move on from Tyus Jones, Kyle Kuzma, Jordan Poole, and Deni Avdija and whoever else before they're even relevant.
That said, I like their draft from this year. If they get smart/lucky and get a Top 4 pick, I think they'll have an interesting future. Both Carrington and Sarr are "positionally versatile" enough that they could theoretically fit with any player.
I seriously, SERIOUSLY hope BIlly Donovan left the Thunder because he didn't want to do a rebuild. LIke, I hope he sat down, evaluated his priorities, and thought, "I'm a good coach, and I'm competitive, and I just don't want to lose. It would hurt my soul to do so."
Because now he's banking 10s of millions of dollars to be an even losier loser than what would have happened in OKC, and that's just hilarious to me. Donovan and AKME and Reinsdorf are all pretty perfect for each other.
I was sure he was gone and was just being professional by saying he wasn't interested. Has he just lost all will to compete or what? Like maybe he feels like he's accomplished everything in his career that he wants to, so he's fine putting in the bare minimum and getting paid a ton for it. Other than that, I have no idea why he stayed.
If AK goes, who will replace him? Pax again? Is the world full of sports execs who are willing to trade their professional reputations for lifetime employment turning the Bull's hypno-wheel?
With that being said, I could see the Bulls easily being bad enough to pick top 8 the next three years. I could also see them getting unlucky and losing the pick to the lottery even if they were a bottom 8 team though.
Yeah I'm pretty well resigned to that. Just worried we're gonna end up with three straight #7 picks again though... Need to come out of this teardown with talent on the level of like Ant or Chet. Not more Cobys and Wendell Carters.
Tanking is fucking lame. But I just don't see an alternative to seriously going all in on the tank this year.
heh the Chandler Hutchison pick really sucks when you look at the picks after him. Jalen Brunson, Anfernee Simons, Robert Williams.. Even Wagner or Shamet would have been so much better.
I think Matt has the essential story here, and it's an eternally Bulls one. They handed out terrible contracts to Zach and Vuc, and then they didn't have any money left to hand out a reasonable one to DeMar.
In the short run, people will laud them for making "the right move" given the circumstances, and that will be technically correct. But it will miss the point that the circumstances were bad and entirely of AKME's making.
Yep, and on top of that, the culture created by handing out terrible contracts probably left DeMar wanting out. Even if they could have offered him the money, is it worth the repeated headfirst leap into a brick wall that has characterized the Bulls the last 3 seasons? It's not. I can see him just wanting out regardless of the number.
I mean, the Zach contract was actually defensible, given he had come off 2 all star seasons and Bulls already had a reputation of cheaping out. I never liked him that much and would rather have done a S&T, but I didn't see a situation where he stayed for less than the max. And I got why they did it.
Vuc contract was just an abomination. I'm not even as much of a Vuc hater as some, but it made absolutely no sense whatsoever and was a complete overpay for someone no one was even competing for.
I was shocked when Demar said he wanted to stay originally, to CE's point.
LaVine was a pretty good player, but he was never great. And he was only good because he scored so many points, which are always overpaid for. When you overpay a defensive whiz like Hartenstein or whomever, it's always waaaay cheaper than overpaying a "bucket-getter." But in the end, the ability to win a game is affected the same.
Thanks for the explanation. 🙄 I already said I didn't even like him that much, just that I wouldn't put his contract in the same category as Vuc for those reasons.
Yeah, LaVine’s was much worse at the time they were both signed. 😜 When you commit that much money, you better be right, not just worried he’ll go somewhere else. It’s much easier to get out of Vuc’s contract than LaVine’s.
Meh, Beal got traded after a comparable 22-23 season and hasn't played more than 60 games since before covid and is older. And he's making 10 mil a year more. I don't buy that they couldn't get rid of his contract.
I am a fan of his but I also think calling him "Chicago's best player" gives Demar more stature than is really warranted. It's technically true, but also doesn't say much about Demar given that the teams he played on here sucked and nobody else in the league thought he was worth nearly as much as the Bulls did.
I used to make fun of Nets fans for blowing their team's future on a roster built around Joe Johnson and then getting delusions of grandeur about the "best team ever!" before they played a single game. I don't make fun of them anymore, I envy them. They took a gamble that actually had a chance (the second time at least) and now they're back to where they started just like the Bulls are but actually have a realistic GM, they made up for all the picks they lost and then some. I think they have something like 8 fucking picks from Kevin Durant! Not a bad way to clean up. As much as any mediocre team can say, they have a future.
What a colossal waste of everyone's time. We all could have been learning how to hang wallpaper or HVAC repair.
All these trades should have been happened last year when you could have gotten more legit assets back for both DD and Caruso instead of wasting time trying to sneak in the playoffs via the play-in Anybody with a brain could see the initial experiment didn't work but JR didn't want to lose out on the potential playoff revenue so here we are.
I'm sure AKME will botch this "rebuild" terribly. Stoop for Coop I guess...
But whatever let the kids play.......i just hope they can dump Vuc off quickly, don't need him sulking around and fucking up the vibes
Yes, I know I am a broken record but Demar should have been moved after his All-NBA season and Caruso during a trade deadline where contenders would have outbid each other for an easy addition to their playoff rotation. We could have gotten 3-6 first rounders if we played our cards right but here with are with Josh Giddey and two second rounders. This team sucks.
He was the best player on a decent Dominican team in the Olympic qualifiers. Players coming in after international ball always seem to have a bit more verve than usual. Maybe that ups his value a bit or gets him winning some minutes in training camp.
a few Bulls media partners are so Bulls-pilled that they're already counting roster spots and how the team is 'set'
Duarte is literally paid by another team to be here, he's not a prospect they wouldn't consider moving
pretty much any LaVine trade means more players coming in. another reason they need to do this before the season, they can't be put in a position where they could trade LaVine but don't want to waive Dalen Terry. Or the multi-day interest bump in the Lonzo Ball comeback story.
I just have traumatic projections of KC Johnson on the radio in January saying a Zach deal can't get done (this time) because there's just too many players not enough roster spots
It all goes back to Reinsdorf. Moving on from AKME won't work because it's still Dorfs running the show. If you let AKME handle the rebuild, do they make a trade like the Spurs made here? Or do they just execute the "play bad; make your draft pick; repeat" plan? I suspect the latter. But we also know that is exactly what the previous regime did with their rebuild. There has never been any interest in running this org efficiently. That's the Dorfs, and they will never change, regardless of who they bring in.
When both Derozan and Lavine were out due to injury. White, Ayo and Williams really showed growth and all 3 were able to play much faster and stepped up their game and I noticed Williams started playing aggressively and more comfortable.
^ That didn't actually happen. DeMar missed 3 games last year. In one of them, LaVine played. So now we're down to two. In the 3rd game DeRozan missed, it was a rest game vs. Washington on April 12 and neither Pat Williams or Ayo played.
You are actually talking about one game in which these three players played without LaVine and DeMar (two for Coby). This is that game:
It's overtime, so they played a ton of minutes (nearly 45 for Coby). Nothing shabby about it for Coby and Ayo but Patrick had a total dogshit game. That was the game that Caruso sent to overtime with a 3 over Brook Lopez:
So the big question now (aside from how to get rid of AK?) is what to do with Zach?
I could see him being more fun and less of a ball hog on offense, now that we have a pass first PG. And he might not be the weakest link in the defense, so he might not be constantly hunted on defense. Would that rehab his value more than it would cost us?
Or do are we desperate enough to attach picks to get rid of him? If so, who might be interested? The Nets for Simmons (who would sit and "rehab" for a year... could we get an Injured Player insurance payout?)
Or could we tell Zach he's sitting indefinitely and to go practice with the Lakers, until he can convince them to trade for him?
The BaB’ers will complain we get nothing for Zach so might as well get him an All Star appearance so we can trade him to OKC for 7 firsts at the deadline. Let’s GO!!!
I still think there's a way to not have to attach picks. I think any assumption they need to attach picks is because it's AK doing the calls.
Bulls are roughly $5M under the tax now, so can take back more salary than they send out with Zach. That opens up Lakers, I think they wouldn't mind packaging guys to get LaVine and still have their future firsts. Rui+Russell+Vincent is -$3M for Lakers this year and -$16M next year
also I think my plan for Blazers still works because they'd be giving up a first but it's not a very valuable one (to the Bulls)
I don't recall the details of the Blazers trade, but I recall it being to complex and making too much sense for AK.
I feel like the Lakers trade would have already happened if both sides were ok with your proposal. I'd love to be wrong, though. Shipping Zach out and getting a couple of playable players in return sounds like a win, even if they aren't starter quality.
I think this week has finally convinced me to just not listen to KC. Like Mike said, it's not even that he's spinning what the org. Is telling him anymore, he's spinning what he's assuming the org wants. He has less actual insight than ever, so you're left with compromised opinions
I'm even more full of shit because I listened to KC on Yelly&Ugh this morning.
i just found it striking that he said "I don't know how the Bulls will message this or if this is what they're thinking"...you're the INSIDER, try and find out!
it actually wasn't as bad. They correctly dismissed Duarte as trade filler despite what that promo tweet implied
and KC (gasp) said he didn't think the Bulls deserved much credit for changing direction because it was clearly not their first choice. That's what I said!
Honestly, good for them. I figured they were going to try to spin Duarte as some 3 and D wing this team has been missing and he's actually way better than he looks or something like that.
I'm sure I'm just imagining this, but I kind of feel like there might be some growing resentment from KC towards AK. Like maybe he's not happy that AK doesn't give him the access GarPax did or something like that.
He kind of called AK out in the most recent press conference when AK said he'd let the reporters in on more details once free agency arrived and KC was like "How are you going to do that when you rarely hold press conferences?" or something to that effect. He said it in a half-joking manner, but the glare AK gave him before faking a smile was hilarious. I have a feeling there isn't much love lost between those two.
The Nets own their pick next year (technically they can swap with Houston if they want but don't have to) so I don't see them trying to be cute and taking in $130 million for a chance to drop in the lottery and... not much else, really? They're not going to be good and Zach is just going to take away touches in their plan to turn Cam Thomas into, well, Zach LaVine.
The Lakers maybe? A problem with sending Zach to the Kings is it took them off the board for Zach and they were the only team that seemed even remotely "on the board"
You can squint at Charlotte and see them dumping off Grant Williams, Reggie Jackson and Josh Green, still staying 11 mil or so under the tax even with Zach's inflated salary. But I'm skeptical they'd even take that deal or that Klutch would be okay with dumping Zach off to Mayberry RFD. None of the other teams with any cap space make sense, since their leadership is competent and sees LaVine's limitations. I tend to think yfbb was correct in an earlier thread that Zach is going to be sent home indefinitely, John Wall-style.
I don't actually think that happened. Wall literally couldn't play anymore. Once he got bought out, he showed it pretty quickly. I don't think Simmons can play anymore either. Not for long.
Point being, I just think sending a guy home has a lot of pretty negative implications across the board. Probably only happens if there is something really and seriously wrong.
From a practical perspective, the Bulls can't blow another opportunity to collect some value and they can't afford to give away any more picks when they're already in a deficit.
So Zach has to stay. It's not going to make them win too much because Zach's not that good. It's not going to hold anyone back, because there's nobody on the team with much developmental potential.
Wall was pretty cooked, but still playable. He wasn't much worse than Laker Westbrook, IIRC. The issue was he insisted on starting, made a fuss and they were nakedly interested in tanking. I agree Zach is far better as a player, but the realpolitik is quite ugly, as the Bulls have poured a ton of strychnine into the well via their media lackeys and LaVine has been dim-witted and petulant. I look forward to seeing how the soap opera works out.
Hoopshype makes it easy to sort by player salaries in future years. In Zach's last year (player option), even after some extensions signed this year kicking in he's tied for 15th highest salary in the league at nearly $49M
gotta look pretty far to find a worse value that year. Bradley Beal I guess. Jordan Poole at $34.5M? (KC Johnson: ::chuckle:: "guys, it is part of AK's pledge for a youth movement"). MPJ is probably similar value, but he plays a style that Zach hasn't proven capable of
also could see who is signed through 2027/28 (so Zach's contract is up a year earlier): Towns, Siakam, Sabonis...none who are gonna get moved now
From the beginning, it looked as if Derozan was OK with moving on pass the Bulls as he stated, he wanted to win, seemed like more than anything. I think he also wanted to be in or near LA. The argument seems unbalanced when at the end of the day, the player has the ultimate decision in most cases. To me, the bulls did the right thing with honoring Derozan, by not trading him. Derozan has dealt with a lot of mental health trauma from those acts in the past. The bulls allowed him to play out his contract and then helped in securing the type of contract he wanted. Why do much hate?
They could have made this deal with Sacramento, taken the player and the pick (and probably traded the player again for another pick).
Instead, they're being cheap and rather than multiple picks and a player, they took cash, a pair of 2nds and a failed project, only this one has been dumped by 2 teams in 3 years and is also 104 years old.
Yeah, I did not want to get into the nuts and bolts, but, when I saw San Antonio's involvement, I thought it was safe to assume that the team chose cheaping out over grabbing assets for this rebuild that they are apparently really serious about.
At this point, I cannot call this anything but hate-following the team. They suck so bad and are so predictable in how they suck, how could it be possible to enjoy following this process on its own merits? They are not a serious team. They are operating in a totally different universe from the rest of the league and this has doomed them to suck forever no matter what. And not a virtuous kind of sucking. They suck because they are greedy and closed minded.
I will root for low attendance too. I didn't last year because the Bulls did put out compelling-enough nightly dinner theater, and I can't hate on patrons wanting a fun night out
but this is gonna be awful entertainment. and though I think the roster will be a lot different on opening night it likely won't help that entertainment value.
I just delightfully picture AK telling lil' Dorf how the Hinsdale boosters bought up a bunch of tickets. They'll get a couple days for Lonzo's return. Then will waive Lonzo and trade for Derrick Rose. Oh and another Ring of Honor ceremony?
Yep. The only reason another team got involved was because the Bulls didn't want to take back so much salary. They could have gotten Barnes, and the pick swap*, Duarte and money, and two seconds.
And, oh, we don't like a pick swap in 7 years? When the Spurs are drafting Top 5 when Wembanyama is 27 because they're smart enough to know that Sacramento will be terrible by then, we'll all be glad Reinsdorf saved money and/or AKME saved thinking muscles.
Once Zac goes and Vuc goes to the bench the last pieces are easy…. A new coach and a new GM.
If the new center works out the Bulls starters may not be to bad… Coby Ayo Pat with the rookie and the Indiana center.
Counterpoint: that's a 15-20 win lineup if everyone stays healthy all year.
Yea they have no bench and 2 guys are total unknowns but the 25 draft is deep. Their not making the playoffs so hope for 15 wins
*if they move zach and Vuc
Horrible trade. I can't imagine anyone defending it.
The trade is already being whitewashed as doing a solid for DeMar DeRozan.
If the Bulls were a normal team they would have taken the salary back and gotten the pick. Just like this scrappy young front office in San Antonio did three years ago when they were sign-and-trading a guy named DeMar DeRozan.
Reinsdorf has pocketed literally hundreds of millions in luxury tax payments, to say nothing of the years when he had a bottom 5 payroll before the CBA forced him to pay up with a minimum team salary. This would be the time to invest it back. Their refusal to do so is a clear indication, as if we needed one, that they're not going to absorb other teams' bad contracts to accumulate picks and speed up the process of rebuilding. It's going to be long and they're going to need to be very lucky again.
How are the Bulls ever actually going to rebuild? They somehow have neither young soon to be stars or hoard of pics. Even if they tank and get one star, the path to contending vs Teams with multiple talented players seems rough at best.
It's really sad time to be a bulls fan.
Yeah the prudent move would have been get the first round swap rights at least and barnes and then move barnes to a contender. Barnes himself would likely yield a second rounder.
Think of this way we traded for 2 of lebrons kids. what's not to love about that? lol This franchise is trash. I'm rooting for the Twolves and Terrence Shannon next year.
In a vacuum, I’m good with playing the young guys, losing a lot of games, and being in a position to keep our pick in a great draft.
With that said, the elephant in the room is that we’re now here due to AK’s failures. And this isn’t just a small failure. Trading away huge draft capital and committing big money to 2 borderline all-stars (LaVine and Vuc) and not winning a single playoff series is a massive failure. It’s a level of failure that should result in AK’s dismissal.
So, my feelings are mixed. I’m happy to watch the young guys. I’m happy to watch Billy coach them, because I think he’s good with young players. But I don’t think AK should be here anymore.
Exactly this.
I'm not excited to watch the young guys because none of them have star potential. If anything the added responsibility will expose the few who've made progress so far (I guess only Coby White is good enough to be exposed, though with Pat some are just slow learners). As much as it was galling to hear the Bulls front office leak to Darnell Mayberry about obligation to the patrons, they're correct that a non-competitive team like this will be tuned out
Also I think Buzelis is so raw and young Donovan isn't going to have him in the rotation. He's only played young guys out of necessity, and the front office doesn't have sway over him to push for in-court embarrassment, he will try to keep things respectable as possible
This team is going to win around 28 games at the most even if LaVine and Vuc are still here. There are like 3 forwards on this entire roster and one of them (Craig) might not even be here by the time the season begins.
If Buzelis isn’t getting at least 10 minutes per game, then I don’t know what we’re doing here.
I don't know what we're doing here. At least with respect to building a basketball team. The mission to cost cost to offset to impending decline in sales is pretty obvious.
But this team doesn't have any discernible plan or philosophy that I can tell. It's more accurate to me to call this team a prebuilding team than a rebuilding team. Compared to a rebuild, it's much more akin to, say, the 98-99 Bulls, when they were trotting out Randy Brown and Ron Harper, Brent Barry and Kukoc until they could unload Kukoc.
Nobody on this team is gonna be here when they're good again.
At this point, they are very much like Wizards of last year. Except, the Bulls are still saddled with LaVine's salary. Washington has/had to get rid of/move on from Tyus Jones, Kyle Kuzma, Jordan Poole, and Deni Avdija and whoever else before they're even relevant.
That said, I like their draft from this year. If they get smart/lucky and get a Top 4 pick, I think they'll have an interesting future. Both Carrington and Sarr are "positionally versatile" enough that they could theoretically fit with any player.
I seriously, SERIOUSLY hope BIlly Donovan left the Thunder because he didn't want to do a rebuild. LIke, I hope he sat down, evaluated his priorities, and thought, "I'm a good coach, and I'm competitive, and I just don't want to lose. It would hurt my soul to do so."
Because now he's banking 10s of millions of dollars to be an even losier loser than what would have happened in OKC, and that's just hilarious to me. Donovan and AKME and Reinsdorf are all pretty perfect for each other.
It completely shocked me that he didn’t go to Kentucky. That was an obvious out and he just said NOPE when the writing was on the wall here.
Why? To cement his son as a GLeague coach?
I was sure he was gone and was just being professional by saying he wasn't interested. Has he just lost all will to compete or what? Like maybe he feels like he's accomplished everything in his career that he wants to, so he's fine putting in the bare minimum and getting paid a ton for it. Other than that, I have no idea why he stayed.
he has power in "the program" of the Bulls like he would at a major college job
I doubt he wants to coach a 25 win team, but also knows he won't get blamed for anything while getting to be the public-facing voice of the team.
and you get to stay in much nicer hotels
Not sure being the public-facing voice of the team is something anyone working for the Bulls wants... But yeah, I do see your point.
It was shocking to hear LaVine get paid so much. AK should have been fired right after.
If AK goes, who will replace him? Pax again? Is the world full of sports execs who are willing to trade their professional reputations for lifetime employment turning the Bull's hypno-wheel?
I don't mind a tank in a vacuum. I do mind these morons being in charge of a tank.
I am not sure everyone realizes it's not as if this is just one year and the pick obligation extinguishes
if the Bulls don't convey the pick this year, it's 1-8 in 2026 and 1-8 in 2027
With that being said, I could see the Bulls easily being bad enough to pick top 8 the next three years. I could also see them getting unlucky and losing the pick to the lottery even if they were a bottom 8 team though.
To put it differently, I can't see the Bulls possibly being good enough to endanger keeping their pick.
Yeah I'm pretty well resigned to that. Just worried we're gonna end up with three straight #7 picks again though... Need to come out of this teardown with talent on the level of like Ant or Chet. Not more Cobys and Wendell Carters.
Tanking is fucking lame. But I just don't see an alternative to seriously going all in on the tank this year.
It’s lame because they never get more picks. Or they promise fucking Chandler Hutchison.
heh the Chandler Hutchison pick really sucks when you look at the picks after him. Jalen Brunson, Anfernee Simons, Robert Williams.. Even Wagner or Shamet would have been so much better.
I think Matt has the essential story here, and it's an eternally Bulls one. They handed out terrible contracts to Zach and Vuc, and then they didn't have any money left to hand out a reasonable one to DeMar.
In the short run, people will laud them for making "the right move" given the circumstances, and that will be technically correct. But it will miss the point that the circumstances were bad and entirely of AKME's making.
Yep, and on top of that, the culture created by handing out terrible contracts probably left DeMar wanting out. Even if they could have offered him the money, is it worth the repeated headfirst leap into a brick wall that has characterized the Bulls the last 3 seasons? It's not. I can see him just wanting out regardless of the number.
I mean, the Zach contract was actually defensible, given he had come off 2 all star seasons and Bulls already had a reputation of cheaping out. I never liked him that much and would rather have done a S&T, but I didn't see a situation where he stayed for less than the max. And I got why they did it.
Vuc contract was just an abomination. I'm not even as much of a Vuc hater as some, but it made absolutely no sense whatsoever and was a complete overpay for someone no one was even competing for.
I was shocked when Demar said he wanted to stay originally, to CE's point.
LaVine was a pretty good player, but he was never great. And he was only good because he scored so many points, which are always overpaid for. When you overpay a defensive whiz like Hartenstein or whomever, it's always waaaay cheaper than overpaying a "bucket-getter." But in the end, the ability to win a game is affected the same.
Thanks for the explanation. 🙄 I already said I didn't even like him that much, just that I wouldn't put his contract in the same category as Vuc for those reasons.
Yeah, LaVine’s was much worse at the time they were both signed. 😜 When you commit that much money, you better be right, not just worried he’ll go somewhere else. It’s much easier to get out of Vuc’s contract than LaVine’s.
Meh, Beal got traded after a comparable 22-23 season and hasn't played more than 60 games since before covid and is older. And he's making 10 mil a year more. I don't buy that they couldn't get rid of his contract.
Hartenstein? Defensive whiz?!...
I am a fan of his but I also think calling him "Chicago's best player" gives Demar more stature than is really warranted. It's technically true, but also doesn't say much about Demar given that the teams he played on here sucked and nobody else in the league thought he was worth nearly as much as the Bulls did.
I used to make fun of Nets fans for blowing their team's future on a roster built around Joe Johnson and then getting delusions of grandeur about the "best team ever!" before they played a single game. I don't make fun of them anymore, I envy them. They took a gamble that actually had a chance (the second time at least) and now they're back to where they started just like the Bulls are but actually have a realistic GM, they made up for all the picks they lost and then some. I think they have something like 8 fucking picks from Kevin Durant! Not a bad way to clean up. As much as any mediocre team can say, they have a future.
What a colossal waste of everyone's time. We all could have been learning how to hang wallpaper or HVAC repair.
Those HVAC guys make some SERIOUS cash nowadays!
All these trades should have been happened last year when you could have gotten more legit assets back for both DD and Caruso instead of wasting time trying to sneak in the playoffs via the play-in Anybody with a brain could see the initial experiment didn't work but JR didn't want to lose out on the potential playoff revenue so here we are.
I'm sure AKME will botch this "rebuild" terribly. Stoop for Coop I guess...
But whatever let the kids play.......i just hope they can dump Vuc off quickly, don't need him sulking around and fucking up the vibes
Yes, I know I am a broken record but Demar should have been moved after his All-NBA season and Caruso during a trade deadline where contenders would have outbid each other for an easy addition to their playoff rotation. We could have gotten 3-6 first rounders if we played our cards right but here with are with Josh Giddey and two second rounders. This team sucks.
Chris Duarte is a homeless man's Troy Brown Jr.'s less talented older brother.
He was the best player on a decent Dominican team in the Olympic qualifiers. Players coming in after international ball always seem to have a bit more verve than usual. Maybe that ups his value a bit or gets him winning some minutes in training camp.
a few Bulls media partners are so Bulls-pilled that they're already counting roster spots and how the team is 'set'
Duarte is literally paid by another team to be here, he's not a prospect they wouldn't consider moving
pretty much any LaVine trade means more players coming in. another reason they need to do this before the season, they can't be put in a position where they could trade LaVine but don't want to waive Dalen Terry. Or the multi-day interest bump in the Lonzo Ball comeback story.
I mean, I would, but they have their guys.
"they can't be put in a position where they could trade LaVine but don't want to waive Dalen Terry"
I keep looking for the /s. Isn't that exactly what they would do?
I just have traumatic projections of KC Johnson on the radio in January saying a Zach deal can't get done (this time) because there's just too many players not enough roster spots
It all goes back to Reinsdorf. Moving on from AKME won't work because it's still Dorfs running the show. If you let AKME handle the rebuild, do they make a trade like the Spurs made here? Or do they just execute the "play bad; make your draft pick; repeat" plan? I suspect the latter. But we also know that is exactly what the previous regime did with their rebuild. There has never been any interest in running this org efficiently. That's the Dorfs, and they will never change, regardless of who they bring in.
When both Derozan and Lavine were out due to injury. White, Ayo and Williams really showed growth and all 3 were able to play much faster and stepped up their game and I noticed Williams started playing aggressively and more comfortable.
^ That didn't actually happen. DeMar missed 3 games last year. In one of them, LaVine played. So now we're down to two. In the 3rd game DeRozan missed, it was a rest game vs. Washington on April 12 and neither Pat Williams or Ayo played.
You are actually talking about one game in which these three players played without LaVine and DeMar (two for Coby). This is that game:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202311300CHI.html
It's overtime, so they played a ton of minutes (nearly 45 for Coby). Nothing shabby about it for Coby and Ayo but Patrick had a total dogshit game. That was the game that Caruso sent to overtime with a 3 over Brook Lopez:
https://www.nba.com/game/mil-vs-chi-0022300269
It’s not true that AKME don’t value draft picks. They just overpaid the first guy they drafted!
Sullenballer is the perfect name for Zach. My wife, who doesn't watch basketball, calls him Sad Boy Zach LaVine. 😂
lmbooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
So the big question now (aside from how to get rid of AK?) is what to do with Zach?
I could see him being more fun and less of a ball hog on offense, now that we have a pass first PG. And he might not be the weakest link in the defense, so he might not be constantly hunted on defense. Would that rehab his value more than it would cost us?
Or do are we desperate enough to attach picks to get rid of him? If so, who might be interested? The Nets for Simmons (who would sit and "rehab" for a year... could we get an Injured Player insurance payout?)
Or could we tell Zach he's sitting indefinitely and to go practice with the Lakers, until he can convince them to trade for him?
The BaB’ers will complain we get nothing for Zach so might as well get him an All Star appearance so we can trade him to OKC for 7 firsts at the deadline. Let’s GO!!!
I still think there's a way to not have to attach picks. I think any assumption they need to attach picks is because it's AK doing the calls.
Bulls are roughly $5M under the tax now, so can take back more salary than they send out with Zach. That opens up Lakers, I think they wouldn't mind packaging guys to get LaVine and still have their future firsts. Rui+Russell+Vincent is -$3M for Lakers this year and -$16M next year
also I think my plan for Blazers still works because they'd be giving up a first but it's not a very valuable one (to the Bulls)
I don't recall the details of the Blazers trade, but I recall it being to complex and making too much sense for AK.
I feel like the Lakers trade would have already happened if both sides were ok with your proposal. I'd love to be wrong, though. Shipping Zach out and getting a couple of playable players in return sounds like a win, even if they aren't starter quality.
Rui Russell Vincent (I couldn't be bothered checking) are also all guys in Duarte's age range. So another opportunity for KC to #youth movement.
I feel they're trolling me at this point, latest KC podcast description says "we discuss the potential of Chris Duarte"
Still working up the courage to listen to that heater of a podcast.
I think this week has finally convinced me to just not listen to KC. Like Mike said, it's not even that he's spinning what the org. Is telling him anymore, he's spinning what he's assuming the org wants. He has less actual insight than ever, so you're left with compromised opinions
I'm even more full of shit because I listened to KC on Yelly&Ugh this morning.
i just found it striking that he said "I don't know how the Bulls will message this or if this is what they're thinking"...you're the INSIDER, try and find out!
alright I'm full of shit and I listened anyway
it actually wasn't as bad. They correctly dismissed Duarte as trade filler despite what that promo tweet implied
and KC (gasp) said he didn't think the Bulls deserved much credit for changing direction because it was clearly not their first choice. That's what I said!
Honestly, good for them. I figured they were going to try to spin Duarte as some 3 and D wing this team has been missing and he's actually way better than he looks or something like that.
I'm sure I'm just imagining this, but I kind of feel like there might be some growing resentment from KC towards AK. Like maybe he's not happy that AK doesn't give him the access GarPax did or something like that.
He kind of called AK out in the most recent press conference when AK said he'd let the reporters in on more details once free agency arrived and KC was like "How are you going to do that when you rarely hold press conferences?" or something to that effect. He said it in a half-joking manner, but the glare AK gave him before faking a smile was hilarious. I have a feeling there isn't much love lost between those two.
The Nets own their pick next year (technically they can swap with Houston if they want but don't have to) so I don't see them trying to be cute and taking in $130 million for a chance to drop in the lottery and... not much else, really? They're not going to be good and Zach is just going to take away touches in their plan to turn Cam Thomas into, well, Zach LaVine.
That makes sense. Any idea who Zach could be pawned off on?
No.
The Lakers maybe? A problem with sending Zach to the Kings is it took them off the board for Zach and they were the only team that seemed even remotely "on the board"
You can squint at Charlotte and see them dumping off Grant Williams, Reggie Jackson and Josh Green, still staying 11 mil or so under the tax even with Zach's inflated salary. But I'm skeptical they'd even take that deal or that Klutch would be okay with dumping Zach off to Mayberry RFD. None of the other teams with any cap space make sense, since their leadership is competent and sees LaVine's limitations. I tend to think yfbb was correct in an earlier thread that Zach is going to be sent home indefinitely, John Wall-style.
Man, that would be brutal.
I don't actually think that happened. Wall literally couldn't play anymore. Once he got bought out, he showed it pretty quickly. I don't think Simmons can play anymore either. Not for long.
Point being, I just think sending a guy home has a lot of pretty negative implications across the board. Probably only happens if there is something really and seriously wrong.
From a practical perspective, the Bulls can't blow another opportunity to collect some value and they can't afford to give away any more picks when they're already in a deficit.
So Zach has to stay. It's not going to make them win too much because Zach's not that good. It's not going to hold anyone back, because there's nobody on the team with much developmental potential.
Wall was pretty cooked, but still playable. He wasn't much worse than Laker Westbrook, IIRC. The issue was he insisted on starting, made a fuss and they were nakedly interested in tanking. I agree Zach is far better as a player, but the realpolitik is quite ugly, as the Bulls have poured a ton of strychnine into the well via their media lackeys and LaVine has been dim-witted and petulant. I look forward to seeing how the soap opera works out.
Hoopshype makes it easy to sort by player salaries in future years. In Zach's last year (player option), even after some extensions signed this year kicking in he's tied for 15th highest salary in the league at nearly $49M
gotta look pretty far to find a worse value that year. Bradley Beal I guess. Jordan Poole at $34.5M? (KC Johnson: ::chuckle:: "guys, it is part of AK's pledge for a youth movement"). MPJ is probably similar value, but he plays a style that Zach hasn't proven capable of
also could see who is signed through 2027/28 (so Zach's contract is up a year earlier): Towns, Siakam, Sabonis...none who are gonna get moved now
From the beginning, it looked as if Derozan was OK with moving on pass the Bulls as he stated, he wanted to win, seemed like more than anything. I think he also wanted to be in or near LA. The argument seems unbalanced when at the end of the day, the player has the ultimate decision in most cases. To me, the bulls did the right thing with honoring Derozan, by not trading him. Derozan has dealt with a lot of mental health trauma from those acts in the past. The bulls allowed him to play out his contract and then helped in securing the type of contract he wanted. Why do much hate?
They could have made this deal with Sacramento, taken the player and the pick (and probably traded the player again for another pick).
Instead, they're being cheap and rather than multiple picks and a player, they took cash, a pair of 2nds and a failed project, only this one has been dumped by 2 teams in 3 years and is also 104 years old.
It's probably that.
Yeah, I did not want to get into the nuts and bolts, but, when I saw San Antonio's involvement, I thought it was safe to assume that the team chose cheaping out over grabbing assets for this rebuild that they are apparently really serious about.
At this point, I cannot call this anything but hate-following the team. They suck so bad and are so predictable in how they suck, how could it be possible to enjoy following this process on its own merits? They are not a serious team. They are operating in a totally different universe from the rest of the league and this has doomed them to suck forever no matter what. And not a virtuous kind of sucking. They suck because they are greedy and closed minded.
I will root for low attendance too. I didn't last year because the Bulls did put out compelling-enough nightly dinner theater, and I can't hate on patrons wanting a fun night out
but this is gonna be awful entertainment. and though I think the roster will be a lot different on opening night it likely won't help that entertainment value.
I just delightfully picture AK telling lil' Dorf how the Hinsdale boosters bought up a bunch of tickets. They'll get a couple days for Lonzo's return. Then will waive Lonzo and trade for Derrick Rose. Oh and another Ring of Honor ceremony?
Yep. The only reason another team got involved was because the Bulls didn't want to take back so much salary. They could have gotten Barnes, and the pick swap*, Duarte and money, and two seconds.
And, oh, we don't like a pick swap in 7 years? When the Spurs are drafting Top 5 when Wembanyama is 27 because they're smart enough to know that Sacramento will be terrible by then, we'll all be glad Reinsdorf saved money and/or AKME saved thinking muscles.