I'm not exactly a Vooch defender. He's a ground-bound center. He's a decent positional defender with good hands. And, not to get all Thibs on you BUT, "the defensive possession ends when you secure the defensive rebound". Vooch is an very good rebounder and that matters on defense.
Having said all that, he is very limited and sets a ceiling on this version of the Bulls. That ceiling is precisely because the Bulls best perimeter players are horrid defensively. Any great defensive center would struggle to look good on this Bulls team.
I agree with you that this team's construction can't work. That's on the FO though. The Bulls put themselves in the trickbag of not being able to let Vooch walk. Again, that's on the FO. Vooch is doing the best he can, he plays, he plays hard and he cares. You could do so much worse (Zach is getting nervous).
I'll give Billy a rare "atta boy". The Pacers game plan was to run the Bulls off the line and funnel everything to Turner and let him disrupt drives. That game plan would work against most teams. The Bulls are one of the few that would take all the midrange jumpers and be happy about it. Billy scrapped the threes for one night and leaned into what the Bulls do well. We'll see what the next game brings. I thought the offense looked good in terms of movement too. They aren't dead yet. A better FO could get something interesting outta this group. AKME ain't even replacement level.
I reason it would be better coaching if the Bulls didn't do exactly what the Pacers wanted them to. And Vuc clearly 'cares' about getting the ball.
And i just disagree with the defensive impact. It's Vuc in the middle. I think he's worse than ever this season, which makes sense as he ages. They are not that bad on the perimeter, especially off the bench.
I did say, "...the Bulls best perimeter players are horrid defensively". The bench defenders don't matter as much when Vooch is gonna lose the minutes with Coby, LaVine and DDR. The bench defenders are mostly ciphers on offense so it's a similar problem of a different flavor. The Bulls have a ton of problems but Vooch isn't in the top-five. The FO is number one by a mile. I didn't like Vooch's new contract at all. That third fully guaranteed year is gonna be someone's mistake. Hopefully it won't be the Bulls paying it. However, I won't begrudge any player getting the most they can. The players got only so many shots to get paid. It's too bad that the Bulls were the sucker.
Maybe the bulls offense should always be reactive, and just take what the defense gives them? They have a post scorer, midrange shooters, players with good 3pt conversion rates (tho not this year yet), and players who can get to the line (tho not enough). Build the team identity on defense. KCJ said team is 17-9 when each of the mid-3 scores 20+, so maybe the key to hero ball is evening it out the touches? Vuc for next head coach!
Laughing at all of the brilliant minds on the internet saying the Bulls won this game because they shot fewer threes and way more midrange shots this game. I'm sure it's not because a very good three point shooting team had an off game, right?
Anyway, this wasn't the worst game in the world. The offense actually didn't look horrible tonight. It was far from good, but we've also seen some horrible offense from this team already this year. While it didn't look bad, it wasn't efficient. Relying on the midrange will never be a sustainable path to success.
It also helped that the Bulls actually got to the line last night. Some of that was deserved, but I also felt like the calls last night heavily favored Chicago. Strange since it was an away game, and I feel like calls generally favor the home team.
I'd like to see this team with Walker Kessler taking Vooch's place. I choose him because in some Center rankings, the two of them are usually ranked fairly close to each other. Vooch is an offense-first center that's also a good rebounder. Kessler doesn't have much of an offensive game, but it a good rim protector and rebounder as well. Do we think if this team wasn't so focused on collapsing into the paint to help Vooch protect the basket, they'd actually be a considerably better team?
It's not collapsing in to help Vooch. It's blow-bys and losing guys all over. That makes it look like collapsing in. (Looking at Zach losing another guy in the corner.) If the point of attack defense is bad, it doesn't matter who the center is. The defense is toast.
Not necessarily true though. I'm not saying point of attack defenders aren't useful, because they certainly are, but a rim protector does help cover some of the mistakes of poor on-ball defense.
Right now this Bulls team has poor (starting) guard defenders and a poor rim protector. Generally you need at least one or the other, preferably both. We know this team will always have poor guard defenders, unless Zach and/or DeMar are traded, which means they should prioritize rim protection.
Last season (before Pat Bev) they were able to sort of cheat the system by having a fairly good guard defender in Ayo and then just collapse the defense whenever someone got into the paint and force other teams to beat them from three.
This season they aren't starting a good guard defender. Coby plays hard and isn't as bad at defense as he once was, but he's still not a good defender. If Billy wants to start Coby, Zach and DeMar, prioritizing a rim protecting big would be of paramount importance.
Sure, we'll leave aside who was available and all of that. Everything you said is a FO problem, plain and simple. Vooch didn't trade for himself. Didn't re-sign himself to an above market deal. Rim-protectors with no offensive skill aren't wanted either (Clint Capela nods, grimly).
Hmm not sure we're on the same page. Nothing in my previous comments was saying that Vooch should be something he's not. I was simply stating I'd be interested in seeing what this current roster looks like with a defense-first center instead of Vooch.
I do agree that this is a front office problem. They assembled this core with the hope that Lonzo and Caruso could cover for the defensive terribleness of the mid-3 and they kind of did. That was obviously short lived though and AKME have done absolutely nothing to address this team's shortcomings.
I agree the offense didn't look horrible, outside of when they were trying to force post-ups to Vuc, which is why it's indeed funny that such actions are what many ex-players are lauding
NBA.com tracking has 11 post ups for the Bulls last night, netting 5 points
I'm not sure how accurate this is though, it also says zero turnovers and there were at least 2 that were turned over on failed entry passes (including in the video on this post)
Maybe because those ex-players are mostly bigs who also played in an era when posting up was an efficient way to score. On a positive note, at least Bulls media is as behind the times as the actual organization is...
That's more or less the case throughout the league. It's a bit annoying but expected. Randos on Reddit buying it is even less of a concern. What's concerning is AKME seem to believe in it. ("double double machine")
Adam shouted and fist pumped when Vuc attained DoubleDoubleHood in the 3rd quarter so emphatically that you'd swear the skies would open with confetti and streamers, or at least we'd get an extra point out of it or something.
Literally just about every media source other than Yfbb has a somewhat rational take on Vuc. It is only BaB that consistently beats this dead horse, game after game.
Vuc is a top 10-15 center. His salary matches that. Some outlets rank him higher, some maybe lower although haven't seen many. He is just an average to slightly above average center, just like many of the pieces on this team from coach to star player are just average to slightly above average. Apparently nuance is hard, it has to be "Vuc sucks and every narrative must be framed in regards to Vuc's shortcomings!" or it must be creating this strawman argument about a Vuc bandwagon. Dude is average.
We've had this conversation many times before. I don't dislike Vooch as much as yfbb or a lot of commenters on here. I certainly don't love him but I also don't hate him. This front office has put him in a bad situation and he's obviously not thriving due to that bad situation.
That doesn't change the bad situation though. This team is built around non-defending guards. The only way that can have any sort of remote success is by having a defense-first center. It's not Vooch's fault that he's not that, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Vooch is not what this team needs, and paying him $60 million was incredibly stupid by the front office.
Also, a lot of the non-BaB takes are to let Vooch run the offense and magically become Jokic. Even you know that won't happen. Vooch needs to be on a team where he can be like the third or fourth offensive option and not be required to play rim protector. Memphis would actually work out pretty well for him because he could play alongside JJJ.
There see, a nuanced take. That wasn't hard... Not the talks of bandwagons or Vuc as horrible.
He was overpaid; I would have never paid him that. If I was owner, I would generally allow all my players to perform market discovery on their value, and come back and I'll pay you a little more than that if I want you. We bid against ourselves on Vuc and Ayo it seems, and probably will again on Pat. And I'd love to trade Vuc, and he is a bad fit (most people would probably be a bad fit next to Zach and DDR however).
But none of that is to suggest that somehow Vuc is bad at defense or basketball. Or that he's not a top 10-15 center in the league. The vitriole spewed forth at him on a daily basis here, is basically comedy at this point. But hey, something to do I guess in an otherwise boring season. Perhaps I wish any singular Bull made me as upset as people are here about Vuc
he's not a top 10-15 center in this league, he's top 18-26
And the narrative is framed around his shortcomings because
1) the team is built around his shortcomings
2) they paid a ton of money and assets to get him here
3) he insists on framing conversation around himself
does that mean I personally dislike him? well maybe for #3. Do I wish he had some self reflection and recognized he should quit as to prevent the Bulls from overpaying him? yes, but I don't think that's likely!
I know you keep saying that Vooch is the bottom third in centers in the league but there isn't a stat you can pull that backs that. Maybe PER but by PER Drummond was better than Bam, Turner and Allen.
Vooch puts up counting stats in a league where that's hard to do. Defensive Win Shares Vooch ended last season number 1 among centers that qualified for MPG leaderboard. I don't believe that he's a great defensive center but he's not awful. Vooch finished 8th overall in win shares at center. The numbers are what they are. The man is better than you think but probably not as good as he thinks he is. Painting the guy as everything that's wrong with this team when LaVine is right there, my goodness. Also, the FO allowed themselves to be put in the same trickbag with respect to LaVine's contract. Had to pay him even though Zach doesn't have the same value to any other team as he does to the Bulls. On the court, LaVine is a much bigger problem than Vooch.
it's a subjective ranking of who I'd rather have as my team's starting center, not objective ranking of counting stats
the defensive stats are due to him being on the floor a lot while the team totally sold out to accommodate his defensive 'style', plus some luck with opponent shooting
you do make a good point that Zach is just as big of a problem, he has not taken any 'leap' this year so far either and looks disinterested defensively
And he similarly gets fluffed by local media, ex-players, and redditors. But unlike Vuc I think Zach already gets it against him nationally so I don't feel a similar desire to 'counter'?
That's fair and I totally respect that. In fact I want that. I want my Carlos Boozer or Rajon Rondo to make the year pass quicker. Just can't suspend disbelief enough to buy into the Vuc narrative
Bro we literally did this exact conversation a couple months ago when you first decided to start writing anti-Vuc articles around his new contract signing. You gotta find some new content
In that case? Yes, absolutely! DJJ was a slashing, explosive off-the-ball forward who struggled to find an established position in the changing NBA but was working on his 3 ball enough to be playable. The Bulls turned him into just a big body, which he emphatically is not, who stood on the perimeter, which he was not great at. Billy didn't have any other options so they just plugged him in.
Oct 31, 2023·edited Oct 31, 2023Liked by your friendly BullsBlogger
For all the “post up Vooch!” folks:
Last season he was 9th in the league in post ups per game, recording a blistering 1.05 points per possession. That lands him in the elite 68th percentile of post players.
In this young season Vooch is logging an astonishing 0.61 points per possession on post ups, good enough to put him in the heralded 6th percentile.
Truly, post up Vooch is an offensive juggernaut. Vooch in the post is so devastating that he is the 3rd best post player… on the Bulls.
68th percentile is comfortably above average. (50th percentile is bang-average for those that didn't take stats). 68th is kinda impressive given that the Bulls spacing was butt all last season. This year he's off to a terrible start, no question. But, if he can get back to above-average, that's a help. If he stays as one of the worst post-up players in the league (like he is this year) #welp.
There's still a place for post touches in the game. I will freely admit that I'd like to see more than 68th percentile. But, again, that's a function of bad Bulls spacing as much as Vooch's skill. The Bulls don't do many things well offensively, to be fair. So might as well lean on what they can do versus what they can't.
Post touches are below average offense per possession compared to other types of scoring, true enough. This team can't score in the more efficient ways of modern offense though! The most efficient means of scoring are the things that the Bulls do poorly to very poorly. Bad team philosophy and construction strike again.
The data suggesting his post production isn’t all that effective and shouldn’t take away from actual good offense is from all of last season. The data suggesting he is barely producing like a scrub in the post is from 4 games played, so I’ll give you the small sample size caveat for that.
A lot of ugly wins and ugly losses. Probably hover around .500, although my guess is they'll hover somewhere a couple games under .500. Just close enough for AK to let it play out.
They'll have lots of games where they "out shoot" the other team in terms of percentage, but they'll lose because the other team will have made way more threes and free throws. Y'know, basically everything that happened last season...
We might not agree on everything, but we agree here. I freely admit that I'm arguing about who is the biggest anchor on the Titanic. The absolute best case for this team is 43-46 win and a competitive first-round out. A realistic (and most likely) case is exactly what you described. I don't wanna see the worst case simply because I doubt it would get AKME fired. Then AKME would be in charge of a rebuild and I just don't wanna see them leading a rebuild. AKME sucks.
Yeah, I definitely think AKME is this team's biggest issue. I mean, it all stems from them so it kind of has to be them. I think I'd rather see things fall apart though and force a rebuild. I absolutely don't trust AKME to coherently rebuild, but maybe they luck into someone amazing? I'd rather a rebuild with the slimmest chances of getting lucky than running this current team back until DeMar turns 40.
You are correct. Ultimately Jerry is the biggest problem. I guess I was operating under the assumption that Jerry is not touchable, so I was talking about things that could potentially be changed.
With that being said, I have a feeling AKME are as untouchable as Jerry is for at least the next five years. I'm sure Jerry will not even consider firing AKME until the public outcry reaches the levels it reached for GarPax at the All-Star game when it was held in Chicago.
Tom Ziller in his morning mailbag talked about the Bulls defensive ranking a while back. His comment was that the Bulls PPG allowed was essentially the same across the 2021-22 and 2022-23 seasons. What changed was that the NBA scoring increased across the board during that same time period. So what was a mediocre defense previously, became a (statistically) better defense even though nothing really changed about the Bulls. So, the Bulls will probably "regress" defensively relative to their previous year's ranking. The defense isn't very good but apparently not many defenses are very good anymore.
that's possible, that the defense isn't much worse statistically but will feel worse watching it because offense around the league continues to increase
I agree. Assuming the offense doesn't change, and our mid-3 seem to have very little desire to change, the team will likely be worse since the defense most likely will be worse than last year.
the Bulls' strongest strength is in their ability to attack the basket. DeMar is a player that has always been good at generating shooting fouls, and using FTs to supplement 3pt shots is something i've been wanting to see this team get back to since Lonzo first went down. Ayo and Coby in their own respects have shown a good knack for slashing to the bucket when they're off-ball. and i know a lot of y'all absolute detest post-play Vuc, but games when he's able to actually cheese smaller dudes down there it's helped to open up space for cutters--start mixing in some second and third actions off these cuts and they could start looking to pop guys open at the three-point line for open and in rhythm looks. i've always felt that, even tho the numbers don't back this up, this offensive core is talented enough 3pt shooters that just don't shoot them enough (chicken or egg, whatever).
in theory, i they're equipped to score in almost any form--like water, they should be able to flow. unfortunately, theory doesn't win games; players and coaches win games, and players and coaches are people, each with their own unique variables. there was a time when i saw what this core could really be capable of, but the compounds haven't stayed bonded together for long enough to ever become anything truly special. the most painful part of watching this group is always knowing but never seeing its true, untapped potential.
This is my crazytown offense, it would likely be a disaster but we don't have anything better to do.
1. Start Caruso and Drummond, Coby comes off the bench and Vuc slides to PF.
2. Currently, Vuc stays behind to collect uncontested rebounds but he's not good at leading the break. Naturally this means we should turn him into a point-PF. Here we go.
3. Drummond now eats up those boards and takes his leisurely stroll down the court.
4. We have two pg-sized guys who are among our best shooters but not exactly Magic Johnson setting the offense so take it out of their hands and have them dump it into the high post and then cut.
5. Vuc takes the ball between the top and the high post and runs the offense. They have to respect his shot at least a little, so they can't sag off him too far. He looks for Zach, Demar or Caruso cutting or to dump into Drummond in the paint.
6. Drummond will likely foul out or need an IV of Gatorade after like 10 minutes, the trick is that Williams subs in for him, not for Vuc. You likely need another C anyway.
If you are imagining that I am essentially regressing into a child-like coziness of nostalgia from the glorious year of Point Joakim, you are correct.
Vuc can do this but I admit the history of it equating into wins is not great (though Noah had zero history doing it at all), and it's not what DeMar or Zach want to do, but while it has a questionable upside, we've seen the known upside of having DeMar hold the ball and Zach go into hero mode and that's neither interesting nor great.
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Okay, but hear me out. What if instead we played a combo guard at point guard. He's tasked with bringing the ball up the floor and then once he gets past half court he passes to either Zach or DeMar and then heads for the corner.
Then Vooch comes and sets a screen for the ball handler. This opens up like five different opportunities.
1. The ball handler drives to the rim.
2. The ball handler takes a mid range jumper.
3. Vooch rolls, the ball handler passes to Vooch who then shoots at the basket.
4. Vooch pops, the ball handler throws Vooch the ball and he shoots a mid range jumper.
5. The other three guys stand at the three point line hoping someone throws them the ball.
So, my name is kinbote and I've been knocking around the online sports forum universe for a while, from team pages to Scout.com to the current abomination that is SB Nation.
I gave up SB Nation for my mental health about ten years ago and even went a full five years without a single comment. Mind you, 99% of my comments were on professional work devices and never once on a smart phone.
Then, in a fit of weakness, I came back when I got my first cell phone capable of such things. But, because I had no interest in rehashing the whole "why did you leave, etc.?" business, I came back under a different name: TylerDurden31.
I enjoyed talking shop and even expanded my range of commentary, knocking around baseball and MMA sites and even dipping my toe into the NFL. All in all it was an instructive time, learning about different fans and different ways that people react to comments [long story short: the exact same that used to be well-received were now met with stunned silence--the halo effect is great on the internet].
Then I realized that I actually didn't care about the personal lives and/or feelings of the "people" I was chatting with online; they were strangers after all, and I don't have much time for strangers in my life. So in a fit of boredom, I changed my username again to BlackMirror99.
I forget some of the others, but there were about 8-10. Yesterday, while trolling the Seattle Seahawks board, someone from Lookout Landing--from which I had been banned for having multiple accounts--evidently ratted me out and now here I sit, broken-hearted, something something something farted. I forget that one.
LOL, poor Patrick Williams. Last night he was as usual standing in the corner open and Zach instead chose to pump fake a pass and shoot an ill advised contested 3 pointer himself. This said Pat is also not helping himself by playing and shooting so poorly.
It's because he never got a good nickname. P-Willy didn't stick. Saint Feint? Pat the Gym Rat. Free Willy. Trespassers William. Hat Trick. Complementary Player on Bad-to-Mid Tier Large Market Team. The Franchise. 20 Minutes of Generally Standing Around. The Fourth Option. PW Smoke.
to me that's far down the list in what's hindering his development. Start with quicker shot release, being able to dribble, reacting more quickly to loose balls and changes of possession, faster and better decision-making...
it's so confounding to me that Pat-backers insist "we know he has it in him!"...no we don't! That's why we're just hoping he can be a better role player, he never was a prospect with huge production upside
I was just hoping for a more athletic, better 3 point shooting Deng...i.e a high level starter who could maybe make an ASG or two. honestly he has better handles than Lu ever did but his feel for the game is just so low level.
His main toxic trait is just lack of instinct/activity, he never seems to know what is going to happen, he is always a couple seconds to slow to react because he has to think so hard about what he should do next. That lack of quick reaction time and need to over-analyze every situation is his fatal flaw in my eyes. That and his extreme lack of physicality....dude is the strongest guy on the team besides maybe Drummond but he plays like he's 6'4 175.
There is such an easy path for Pat to put up 16/6 without even having to have any plans run for him, just based off hitting a couple threes, a couple putbacks, a couple backdoor cuts, maybe a lob and the occassional mid range J or two. It really shouldn't be that hard but here we are.
I'm not exactly a Vooch defender. He's a ground-bound center. He's a decent positional defender with good hands. And, not to get all Thibs on you BUT, "the defensive possession ends when you secure the defensive rebound". Vooch is an very good rebounder and that matters on defense.
Having said all that, he is very limited and sets a ceiling on this version of the Bulls. That ceiling is precisely because the Bulls best perimeter players are horrid defensively. Any great defensive center would struggle to look good on this Bulls team.
I agree with you that this team's construction can't work. That's on the FO though. The Bulls put themselves in the trickbag of not being able to let Vooch walk. Again, that's on the FO. Vooch is doing the best he can, he plays, he plays hard and he cares. You could do so much worse (Zach is getting nervous).
I'll give Billy a rare "atta boy". The Pacers game plan was to run the Bulls off the line and funnel everything to Turner and let him disrupt drives. That game plan would work against most teams. The Bulls are one of the few that would take all the midrange jumpers and be happy about it. Billy scrapped the threes for one night and leaned into what the Bulls do well. We'll see what the next game brings. I thought the offense looked good in terms of movement too. They aren't dead yet. A better FO could get something interesting outta this group. AKME ain't even replacement level.
I reason it would be better coaching if the Bulls didn't do exactly what the Pacers wanted them to. And Vuc clearly 'cares' about getting the ball.
And i just disagree with the defensive impact. It's Vuc in the middle. I think he's worse than ever this season, which makes sense as he ages. They are not that bad on the perimeter, especially off the bench.
I did say, "...the Bulls best perimeter players are horrid defensively". The bench defenders don't matter as much when Vooch is gonna lose the minutes with Coby, LaVine and DDR. The bench defenders are mostly ciphers on offense so it's a similar problem of a different flavor. The Bulls have a ton of problems but Vooch isn't in the top-five. The FO is number one by a mile. I didn't like Vooch's new contract at all. That third fully guaranteed year is gonna be someone's mistake. Hopefully it won't be the Bulls paying it. However, I won't begrudge any player getting the most they can. The players got only so many shots to get paid. It's too bad that the Bulls were the sucker.
Maybe the bulls offense should always be reactive, and just take what the defense gives them? They have a post scorer, midrange shooters, players with good 3pt conversion rates (tho not this year yet), and players who can get to the line (tho not enough). Build the team identity on defense. KCJ said team is 17-9 when each of the mid-3 scores 20+, so maybe the key to hero ball is evening it out the touches? Vuc for next head coach!
Laughing at all of the brilliant minds on the internet saying the Bulls won this game because they shot fewer threes and way more midrange shots this game. I'm sure it's not because a very good three point shooting team had an off game, right?
Anyway, this wasn't the worst game in the world. The offense actually didn't look horrible tonight. It was far from good, but we've also seen some horrible offense from this team already this year. While it didn't look bad, it wasn't efficient. Relying on the midrange will never be a sustainable path to success.
It also helped that the Bulls actually got to the line last night. Some of that was deserved, but I also felt like the calls last night heavily favored Chicago. Strange since it was an away game, and I feel like calls generally favor the home team.
I'd like to see this team with Walker Kessler taking Vooch's place. I choose him because in some Center rankings, the two of them are usually ranked fairly close to each other. Vooch is an offense-first center that's also a good rebounder. Kessler doesn't have much of an offensive game, but it a good rim protector and rebounder as well. Do we think if this team wasn't so focused on collapsing into the paint to help Vooch protect the basket, they'd actually be a considerably better team?
It's not collapsing in to help Vooch. It's blow-bys and losing guys all over. That makes it look like collapsing in. (Looking at Zach losing another guy in the corner.) If the point of attack defense is bad, it doesn't matter who the center is. The defense is toast.
Not necessarily true though. I'm not saying point of attack defenders aren't useful, because they certainly are, but a rim protector does help cover some of the mistakes of poor on-ball defense.
Right now this Bulls team has poor (starting) guard defenders and a poor rim protector. Generally you need at least one or the other, preferably both. We know this team will always have poor guard defenders, unless Zach and/or DeMar are traded, which means they should prioritize rim protection.
Last season (before Pat Bev) they were able to sort of cheat the system by having a fairly good guard defender in Ayo and then just collapse the defense whenever someone got into the paint and force other teams to beat them from three.
This season they aren't starting a good guard defender. Coby plays hard and isn't as bad at defense as he once was, but he's still not a good defender. If Billy wants to start Coby, Zach and DeMar, prioritizing a rim protecting big would be of paramount importance.
Sure, we'll leave aside who was available and all of that. Everything you said is a FO problem, plain and simple. Vooch didn't trade for himself. Didn't re-sign himself to an above market deal. Rim-protectors with no offensive skill aren't wanted either (Clint Capela nods, grimly).
Hmm not sure we're on the same page. Nothing in my previous comments was saying that Vooch should be something he's not. I was simply stating I'd be interested in seeing what this current roster looks like with a defense-first center instead of Vooch.
I do agree that this is a front office problem. They assembled this core with the hope that Lonzo and Caruso could cover for the defensive terribleness of the mid-3 and they kind of did. That was obviously short lived though and AKME have done absolutely nothing to address this team's shortcomings.
I agree the offense didn't look horrible, outside of when they were trying to force post-ups to Vuc, which is why it's indeed funny that such actions are what many ex-players are lauding
NBA.com tracking has 11 post ups for the Bulls last night, netting 5 points
I'm not sure how accurate this is though, it also says zero turnovers and there were at least 2 that were turned over on failed entry passes (including in the video on this post)
Maybe because those ex-players are mostly bigs who also played in an era when posting up was an efficient way to score. On a positive note, at least Bulls media is as behind the times as the actual organization is...
That's more or less the case throughout the league. It's a bit annoying but expected. Randos on Reddit buying it is even less of a concern. What's concerning is AKME seem to believe in it. ("double double machine")
Pretty sure AK has r/chicagobulls set to auto open whenever he turns on his computer.
Adam shouted and fist pumped when Vuc attained DoubleDoubleHood in the 3rd quarter so emphatically that you'd swear the skies would open with confetti and streamers, or at least we'd get an extra point out of it or something.
Ben Simmons got a double/double last night too.
And the Vuc Derangement Syndrome grows ever worse....
Hey, at least Reddit is on the Vooch bandwagon!
Literally just about every media source other than Yfbb has a somewhat rational take on Vuc. It is only BaB that consistently beats this dead horse, game after game.
Vuc is a top 10-15 center. His salary matches that. Some outlets rank him higher, some maybe lower although haven't seen many. He is just an average to slightly above average center, just like many of the pieces on this team from coach to star player are just average to slightly above average. Apparently nuance is hard, it has to be "Vuc sucks and every narrative must be framed in regards to Vuc's shortcomings!" or it must be creating this strawman argument about a Vuc bandwagon. Dude is average.
We've had this conversation many times before. I don't dislike Vooch as much as yfbb or a lot of commenters on here. I certainly don't love him but I also don't hate him. This front office has put him in a bad situation and he's obviously not thriving due to that bad situation.
That doesn't change the bad situation though. This team is built around non-defending guards. The only way that can have any sort of remote success is by having a defense-first center. It's not Vooch's fault that he's not that, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Vooch is not what this team needs, and paying him $60 million was incredibly stupid by the front office.
Also, a lot of the non-BaB takes are to let Vooch run the offense and magically become Jokic. Even you know that won't happen. Vooch needs to be on a team where he can be like the third or fourth offensive option and not be required to play rim protector. Memphis would actually work out pretty well for him because he could play alongside JJJ.
There see, a nuanced take. That wasn't hard... Not the talks of bandwagons or Vuc as horrible.
He was overpaid; I would have never paid him that. If I was owner, I would generally allow all my players to perform market discovery on their value, and come back and I'll pay you a little more than that if I want you. We bid against ourselves on Vuc and Ayo it seems, and probably will again on Pat. And I'd love to trade Vuc, and he is a bad fit (most people would probably be a bad fit next to Zach and DDR however).
But none of that is to suggest that somehow Vuc is bad at defense or basketball. Or that he's not a top 10-15 center in the league. The vitriole spewed forth at him on a daily basis here, is basically comedy at this point. But hey, something to do I guess in an otherwise boring season. Perhaps I wish any singular Bull made me as upset as people are here about Vuc
he's not a top 10-15 center in this league, he's top 18-26
And the narrative is framed around his shortcomings because
1) the team is built around his shortcomings
2) they paid a ton of money and assets to get him here
3) he insists on framing conversation around himself
does that mean I personally dislike him? well maybe for #3. Do I wish he had some self reflection and recognized he should quit as to prevent the Bulls from overpaying him? yes, but I don't think that's likely!
I know you keep saying that Vooch is the bottom third in centers in the league but there isn't a stat you can pull that backs that. Maybe PER but by PER Drummond was better than Bam, Turner and Allen.
Vooch puts up counting stats in a league where that's hard to do. Defensive Win Shares Vooch ended last season number 1 among centers that qualified for MPG leaderboard. I don't believe that he's a great defensive center but he's not awful. Vooch finished 8th overall in win shares at center. The numbers are what they are. The man is better than you think but probably not as good as he thinks he is. Painting the guy as everything that's wrong with this team when LaVine is right there, my goodness. Also, the FO allowed themselves to be put in the same trickbag with respect to LaVine's contract. Had to pay him even though Zach doesn't have the same value to any other team as he does to the Bulls. On the court, LaVine is a much bigger problem than Vooch.
it's a subjective ranking of who I'd rather have as my team's starting center, not objective ranking of counting stats
the defensive stats are due to him being on the floor a lot while the team totally sold out to accommodate his defensive 'style', plus some luck with opponent shooting
here's my rank from the summer:
Jokic, Embiid, KAT, Gobert, AD, Porzingis, Myles Turner, Jarrett Allen, Brook Lopez, Sabonis, Ayton, Bam, Nic Claxton, Robert Williams III, Poeltl, Mitchell Robinson, Kevon Looney, Capela, Kessler
(that's 19)
Some in Vuc's range:
Horford, Nurkic, Valanciunas, Zubac
[huge drop]
Wendell Carter
[huger drop]
Andre Drummond
Then since then you can add Wemby and maybe Chet Holmgren already.
you do make a good point that Zach is just as big of a problem, he has not taken any 'leap' this year so far either and looks disinterested defensively
And he similarly gets fluffed by local media, ex-players, and redditors. But unlike Vuc I think Zach already gets it against him nationally so I don't feel a similar desire to 'counter'?
To be fair, I did say before the season started that I’d be on the scapegoat Vooch bandwagon.
That's fair and I totally respect that. In fact I want that. I want my Carlos Boozer or Rajon Rondo to make the year pass quicker. Just can't suspend disbelief enough to buy into the Vuc narrative
You can't be an average center if you're a terrible defensive center and a historically inefficient one offensively.
Not with that attitude
Something tells me a guy like you with a proclivity towards data analysis can probably use numbers to paint just about any argument he wants
Problem being, the vast consensus of other NBA media don't agree with your or Yfbb's findings
rudimentary analysis request: list 20 starting centers you'd rather have Vuc than.
Bro we literally did this exact conversation a couple months ago when you first decided to start writing anti-Vuc articles around his new contract signing. You gotta find some new content
Something tells me a guy like you with a proclivity towards data analysis can probably use numbers to paint just about any argument he wants
Problem being, the vast consensus of other NBA media don't agree with your findings.
Lots of ppl hating on Vuc who loved that trade when it happened...
How about DJJ starting for the Mavs and pouring in 22 pts last game? Another Donny misuse case?
In that case? Yes, absolutely! DJJ was a slashing, explosive off-the-ball forward who struggled to find an established position in the changing NBA but was working on his 3 ball enough to be playable. The Bulls turned him into just a big body, which he emphatically is not, who stood on the perimeter, which he was not great at. Billy didn't have any other options so they just plugged him in.
For all the “post up Vooch!” folks:
Last season he was 9th in the league in post ups per game, recording a blistering 1.05 points per possession. That lands him in the elite 68th percentile of post players.
In this young season Vooch is logging an astonishing 0.61 points per possession on post ups, good enough to put him in the heralded 6th percentile.
Truly, post up Vooch is an offensive juggernaut. Vooch in the post is so devastating that he is the 3rd best post player… on the Bulls.
68th percentile is comfortably above average. (50th percentile is bang-average for those that didn't take stats). 68th is kinda impressive given that the Bulls spacing was butt all last season. This year he's off to a terrible start, no question. But, if he can get back to above-average, that's a help. If he stays as one of the worst post-up players in the league (like he is this year) #welp.
but above average for post touches is still below average for other offense
There's still a place for post touches in the game. I will freely admit that I'd like to see more than 68th percentile. But, again, that's a function of bad Bulls spacing as much as Vooch's skill. The Bulls don't do many things well offensively, to be fair. So might as well lean on what they can do versus what they can't.
Post touches are below average offense per possession compared to other types of scoring, true enough. This team can't score in the more efficient ways of modern offense though! The most efficient means of scoring are the things that the Bulls do poorly to very poorly. Bad team philosophy and construction strike again.
There is a place for post touches, and those touches should go to DeRozan who is far and away the best post player on the Bulls.
Novel usage of heavy sarcasm and small sample sizes to arrive at a conclusion!
The data suggesting his post production isn’t all that effective and shouldn’t take away from actual good offense is from all of last season. The data suggesting he is barely producing like a scrub in the post is from 4 games played, so I’ll give you the small sample size caveat for that.
So what's next for this team?
A lot of ugly wins and ugly losses. Probably hover around .500, although my guess is they'll hover somewhere a couple games under .500. Just close enough for AK to let it play out.
They'll have lots of games where they "out shoot" the other team in terms of percentage, but they'll lose because the other team will have made way more threes and free throws. Y'know, basically everything that happened last season...
We might not agree on everything, but we agree here. I freely admit that I'm arguing about who is the biggest anchor on the Titanic. The absolute best case for this team is 43-46 win and a competitive first-round out. A realistic (and most likely) case is exactly what you described. I don't wanna see the worst case simply because I doubt it would get AKME fired. Then AKME would be in charge of a rebuild and I just don't wanna see them leading a rebuild. AKME sucks.
Yeah, I definitely think AKME is this team's biggest issue. I mean, it all stems from them so it kind of has to be them. I think I'd rather see things fall apart though and force a rebuild. I absolutely don't trust AKME to coherently rebuild, but maybe they luck into someone amazing? I'd rather a rebuild with the slimmest chances of getting lucky than running this current team back until DeMar turns 40.
Yeah, they are a little old for a team still trying to find itself.
Reinsdorf is the team's biggest issue. AKME do suck but any GM is not going to be able to run the team the complete way they want to
You are correct. Ultimately Jerry is the biggest problem. I guess I was operating under the assumption that Jerry is not touchable, so I was talking about things that could potentially be changed.
With that being said, I have a feeling AKME are as untouchable as Jerry is for at least the next five years. I'm sure Jerry will not even consider firing AKME until the public outcry reaches the levels it reached for GarPax at the All-Star game when it was held in Chicago.
And even then it had to be Paxson quitting (downgrading himself to consultant for life) for a change to happen.
I speculate this is not even an average team because the defense has regressed and I don't see a way out for that.
Tom Ziller in his morning mailbag talked about the Bulls defensive ranking a while back. His comment was that the Bulls PPG allowed was essentially the same across the 2021-22 and 2022-23 seasons. What changed was that the NBA scoring increased across the board during that same time period. So what was a mediocre defense previously, became a (statistically) better defense even though nothing really changed about the Bulls. So, the Bulls will probably "regress" defensively relative to their previous year's ranking. The defense isn't very good but apparently not many defenses are very good anymore.
that's possible, that the defense isn't much worse statistically but will feel worse watching it because offense around the league continues to increase
What could any of our pieces bring in a trade? It's sad that the team performing poorly is probably the best outcome for our long-term prospects.
I agree. Assuming the offense doesn't change, and our mid-3 seem to have very little desire to change, the team will likely be worse since the defense most likely will be worse than last year.
Next is inactivity at the deadline and next offseason cause we're getting closer to having Lonzo back (or not)!
I'll tell you what we're going to have to do.
Jazz Odyssey!
I'm just glad basketball is back. I'm also glad that this space is lively. I hope it stays lively and friendly for the foreseeable future.
The Bulls picked up Dalen Terry's third year... What the actual fuck, AK?
At this point I'd be surprised if Williams doesn't sign a 5 year, $150 million deal. #PlayerFriendlyFO
difference maker
Yeah but you're not in the building, you don't understand!
the Bulls' strongest strength is in their ability to attack the basket. DeMar is a player that has always been good at generating shooting fouls, and using FTs to supplement 3pt shots is something i've been wanting to see this team get back to since Lonzo first went down. Ayo and Coby in their own respects have shown a good knack for slashing to the bucket when they're off-ball. and i know a lot of y'all absolute detest post-play Vuc, but games when he's able to actually cheese smaller dudes down there it's helped to open up space for cutters--start mixing in some second and third actions off these cuts and they could start looking to pop guys open at the three-point line for open and in rhythm looks. i've always felt that, even tho the numbers don't back this up, this offensive core is talented enough 3pt shooters that just don't shoot them enough (chicken or egg, whatever).
in theory, i they're equipped to score in almost any form--like water, they should be able to flow. unfortunately, theory doesn't win games; players and coaches win games, and players and coaches are people, each with their own unique variables. there was a time when i saw what this core could really be capable of, but the compounds haven't stayed bonded together for long enough to ever become anything truly special. the most painful part of watching this group is always knowing but never seeing its true, untapped potential.
(...reminds me of Gohan, smh...)
Steph Noh did a quick vid on a call they did for DDR several times at the end of the game that was very successful: https://streamable.com/76h68u
This is my crazytown offense, it would likely be a disaster but we don't have anything better to do.
1. Start Caruso and Drummond, Coby comes off the bench and Vuc slides to PF.
2. Currently, Vuc stays behind to collect uncontested rebounds but he's not good at leading the break. Naturally this means we should turn him into a point-PF. Here we go.
3. Drummond now eats up those boards and takes his leisurely stroll down the court.
4. We have two pg-sized guys who are among our best shooters but not exactly Magic Johnson setting the offense so take it out of their hands and have them dump it into the high post and then cut.
5. Vuc takes the ball between the top and the high post and runs the offense. They have to respect his shot at least a little, so they can't sag off him too far. He looks for Zach, Demar or Caruso cutting or to dump into Drummond in the paint.
6. Drummond will likely foul out or need an IV of Gatorade after like 10 minutes, the trick is that Williams subs in for him, not for Vuc. You likely need another C anyway.
If you are imagining that I am essentially regressing into a child-like coziness of nostalgia from the glorious year of Point Joakim, you are correct.
Vuc can do this but I admit the history of it equating into wins is not great (though Noah had zero history doing it at all), and it's not what DeMar or Zach want to do, but while it has a questionable upside, we've seen the known upside of having DeMar hold the ball and Zach go into hero mode and that's neither interesting nor great.
Thank you for coming, please support me on Patreon.
my blood is boylen
Okay, but hear me out. What if instead we played a combo guard at point guard. He's tasked with bringing the ball up the floor and then once he gets past half court he passes to either Zach or DeMar and then heads for the corner.
Then Vooch comes and sets a screen for the ball handler. This opens up like five different opportunities.
1. The ball handler drives to the rim.
2. The ball handler takes a mid range jumper.
3. Vooch rolls, the ball handler passes to Vooch who then shoots at the basket.
4. Vooch pops, the ball handler throws Vooch the ball and he shoots a mid range jumper.
5. The other three guys stand at the three point line hoping someone throws them the ball.
Brilliant, right?!
I will give you half of the superchats during our group livestream introducing these revolutionary ideas.
I only do it if I get half of the Patreon donos too!
I got officially banned from all SB Nation sites yesterday so count me in.
You're going to tell us why, right??
[Disclaimer: nobody needs to read this]
So, my name is kinbote and I've been knocking around the online sports forum universe for a while, from team pages to Scout.com to the current abomination that is SB Nation.
I gave up SB Nation for my mental health about ten years ago and even went a full five years without a single comment. Mind you, 99% of my comments were on professional work devices and never once on a smart phone.
Then, in a fit of weakness, I came back when I got my first cell phone capable of such things. But, because I had no interest in rehashing the whole "why did you leave, etc.?" business, I came back under a different name: TylerDurden31.
I enjoyed talking shop and even expanded my range of commentary, knocking around baseball and MMA sites and even dipping my toe into the NFL. All in all it was an instructive time, learning about different fans and different ways that people react to comments [long story short: the exact same that used to be well-received were now met with stunned silence--the halo effect is great on the internet].
Then I realized that I actually didn't care about the personal lives and/or feelings of the "people" I was chatting with online; they were strangers after all, and I don't have much time for strangers in my life. So in a fit of boredom, I changed my username again to BlackMirror99.
I forget some of the others, but there were about 8-10. Yesterday, while trolling the Seattle Seahawks board, someone from Lookout Landing--from which I had been banned for having multiple accounts--evidently ratted me out and now here I sit, broken-hearted, something something something farted. I forget that one.
Anyway, carry on . . .
Congrats?
Thank you. It was time.
LOL, poor Patrick Williams. Last night he was as usual standing in the corner open and Zach instead chose to pump fake a pass and shoot an ill advised contested 3 pointer himself. This said Pat is also not helping himself by playing and shooting so poorly.
It's because he never got a good nickname. P-Willy didn't stick. Saint Feint? Pat the Gym Rat. Free Willy. Trespassers William. Hat Trick. Complementary Player on Bad-to-Mid Tier Large Market Team. The Franchise. 20 Minutes of Generally Standing Around. The Fourth Option. PW Smoke.
we get a Darnell article about Pat...not reacting to the big Caruso shot
https://theathletic.com/5019563/2023/11/01/bulls-patrick-williams-body-language/?source=nbatw
to me that's far down the list in what's hindering his development. Start with quicker shot release, being able to dribble, reacting more quickly to loose balls and changes of possession, faster and better decision-making...
it's so confounding to me that Pat-backers insist "we know he has it in him!"...no we don't! That's why we're just hoping he can be a better role player, he never was a prospect with huge production upside
I was just hoping for a more athletic, better 3 point shooting Deng...i.e a high level starter who could maybe make an ASG or two. honestly he has better handles than Lu ever did but his feel for the game is just so low level.
His main toxic trait is just lack of instinct/activity, he never seems to know what is going to happen, he is always a couple seconds to slow to react because he has to think so hard about what he should do next. That lack of quick reaction time and need to over-analyze every situation is his fatal flaw in my eyes. That and his extreme lack of physicality....dude is the strongest guy on the team besides maybe Drummond but he plays like he's 6'4 175.
There is such an easy path for Pat to put up 16/6 without even having to have any plans run for him, just based off hitting a couple threes, a couple putbacks, a couple backdoor cuts, maybe a lob and the occassional mid range J or two. It really shouldn't be that hard but here we are.