The Bulls don’t understand the market for their players. They overpaid Vuc by $3-4M a year. Nobody was giving Pat five years at $19M per year. I’m guessing that his market value would have been 3 years/$12M per year.
I don't bet, but if I could bet on Zion or LaMelo ending up in a Bulls uniform in the next three years, I'd absolutely put down enough money that it would threaten my marriage.
I wouldn't mind Zion too much because he still is awesome AND his contract I'm pretty sure would be easy to get out of if things go bad, though if they were to trade for Zion I probably rather would have just kept Zach too. LaMelo would be just the most Bulls move they could make.
I think Zion is about the most Bulls move they could make too. I don't dislike him by any means, but he doesn't seem to be all that serious about basketball. He'd fit right in with this front office and ownership. They'd get their marketable star and they wouldn't have to worry about him eventually trying to force his way out because he's sick of being on a mediocre team.
And I think getting Zion makes even more sense because of his contract. If you factor out all of his injuries and just look at raw stats (something I expect AK to do), his contract is pretty decent. AK can then tell ownership and the fans that he's acquired a former #1 overall pick who is a multiple time all-star and still in his prime. That's certainly better than draft picks, right? Plus, it jump starts them being competitive again, which is clearly AK's goal and likely also ownership's.
40-60 games from Zion per season is likely enough to ensure mediocrity for the foreseeable future, which is likely enough to satisfy this front office and ownership. The only potential downside is we already know Zion is injury prone and we know the Bulls medical staff is probably the worst in the league. The possibility of Zion suffering a career ending injury while playing for the Bulls is definitely not insignificant.
So yeah, LaMelo or Zion is a Bulls uniform seems to be about the most likely thing I can think of for this team. Now I'm starting to wonder if Lonzo's extension came as part of a play for LaMelo.
I can't get past the injuries with either of those guys. They're just structurally unsound players with enormous risk of injury.
Going through it with DRose and then writ-small with Lonzo and now Pat, and then wanting to pay either of these guys max money is insane.
Like, the only way I'd do it is if I had some serious inside information that these guys had truly fixed their problems. Do I trust the Bulls to do that? Hell no.
Because of the Bulls' long post-Jordan obsession with shooting guards, I keep expecting they'll choose the worst of both worlds - injuries and money - and somehow acquire Bradley Beal.
I am just now listening to the latest Cash Considerations episode and you guys talk about going after Zion and LaMelo. I promise I was not just stealing that for my comment above 😂
Gotta keep changing the lottery. We just have to. This is nuts. These snotty franchises selling rubes on the promise that they'll get good at guitar once their dad buys them a $2000 Gibson is an obscenity against plain-dealing, sports, business, and competition generally. Even odds for every team but the conference finalists is the way to go, imo.
I'm not self-loathing enough to listen to those 2 men have a conversation, but...
Can you imagine having to go explain yourself when you have his track record? I can't imagine how humiliating it would be for a normal person to have to own his decisions. Not so far for him, I guess. The benefits of being an idiot!
Every couple months I think about this hypothetical:
What if AK had done nothing since he started? Same exact roster as when he took over. Just extensions or matches of current deals. This team would be in a wildly better position. They'd have more draft assets. They'd have better veterans to deal. Most of the 2019-2020 team isn't even in the league anymore and I'd take it along with just random picks from the subsequent drafts and they'd have more young talent.
Saw so many people saying the Bulls kept it close but just couldn't hold on. That's not what happened at all. Cleveland gave minimum effort for the first 42 minutes and then decided to actually try for the last six. That's what happened.
That's what's been happening over the last couple weeks when the Bulls have been losing close games to good teams. The Bulls aren't nearly as good as those good teams. The good teams just aren't trying for most of the game because we're in the final stretch of the season where good teams are giving minimal effort in order to save themselves for the playoffs.
With Collins, it's striking to see the impact of a guy who is neutral to positive on defense vs. Vucevic's traffic cone impersonation. Particularly the rim protection aspect: per Crafted NBA, Collins is like 81st percentile and Vuc is 41st percentile.
I've been seeing so many comments on various Bulls sites about how great Zach Collins is and it just goes to show how fans have gotten so used to watching genuinely bad centers play for the Bulls.
Zach Collins is a mediocre basketball player at his best. Like a solid backup or maybe a decent spot starter. But he makes smart basketball plays and actually plays hard, which is something Bulls fans haven't seen from Vooch, Drummond, or WCJ.
Do I want to see Collins in a Bulls uniform beyond next season? Nope. I'd actually prefer if they could trade him for something decent this summer. But boy has it been nice watching a guy who actually understands his role and who goes out there and plays hard.
But I wouldn't be surprised - based on other teams saying this about dealing with the Bulls - if they put a good offer to the Bulls and AK did a nonsensical counter offer
If I remember correctly, they were specifically named at the deadline as having reached out to the Bulls expressing their interest in Coby. I'd be curious if there was an actual offer and what that offer may have been.
they probably offered a protected first in 2028 or something, and AK can't think that far ahead (because he knows he won't be around, especially if he doesn't get things turned around more quickly).
Orlando game recap, framed with Bulls talking points:
This justified not trading Coby White at the deadline, because why would they trade a good player to a team they are competitive with? Orlando now 1-2 against the Bulls this season, free-falling after back-to-back home losses to the Raptors and now in the 9th seed. A mere 3.5 games from the Bulls getting that home revenue for the opening play-in game.
This is very important for the Bulls to have Coby White have big performances in meaningful games, though saw how last season's play-in win over the Hawks carried over into this year in that it didn't at all.
Young player development:
Buzelis scored 8 of his 11 points in the opening stint. Second half pulled after 90 seconds, but was in for the final ten minutes at center as the Bulls surged (or more accurately watched Magic trip over themselves), that's called winning habits!
Josh Giddey continues to get to the line by being so awkward looking referees figure surely he must've been fouled to put up shots like that. 2/13 last three games from 3
Phillips pushed down the rotation but played in that final stretch as well bc Collins and Smith fouled out. Vuc return looming to fuck this all up lmao.
Billy pulling Matas 90 seconds into the second half was ridiculous. And he probably only played late in the game because the Bulls two centers had fouled out. Really letting these young guys learn!
The Bulls are going to finish 15-20 games below .500 and still make the play-in. The bottom third of the East is terrible this year. Pat Riley going to make a few bucks on a Bulls Play-In Threepeat shirt sales.
not important but funny to see people warm up to Tre Jones as a suitable backup PG but the problem is the Bulls already have THREE others in that role (Giddey, Ball, Carter)
I can't believe AK is going to try and tout Jones, Huerter, and Collins as players he targeted when they were mandatory for salary fill-in, plus the better they play the more it shows that they over-committed to their own guys in Ball and Vuc
Tre Jones was the player I was highest on in that trade. Not because I think he's good but just because he's a competent backup point guard whose stock wasn't at an all-time low like the other two. The problem is the Bulls don't need a competent backup point guard and he's expiring, so it's not like they can trade him for anything this summer.
while we're posting podcast clips of dunking on our Bulls, here is a good dissection of Josh Giddey's recent surge, called "the Punxatayny Phil of Mickey Mouse March"
Matas gets subbed back into the game with roughly five minutes left. Stacey and Adam immediately make note of the fact that Buzelis hasn't finished games much and question if he'll remain in for the rest of the game.
*Matas makes bad pass with roughly four minutes to go.*
*Billy immediately subs him out for the remainder of the game.*
I think that subreddit has been overrun by Australian fans. Giddey still has a decent amount of doubters over there but they get downvoted into oblivion.
Giddey is getting more expensive by the game. Another triple double last night and +25! I am also feeling better about his defense. That was a key block he made against Herro in the last couple minutes.
If anybody looks at DunksandThrees, Giddey's defensive EPM is now at the 48th percentile.
And he has been playing really well alongside Coby.
Dalen with an incredible -23 in 8:24 in a game we won! That's awesome. Is that better than just going 4-on-5? Who's to say? The important thing is we've got him locked up for next year.
AK gives up the game - kind of my overall point in this post - when saying he values young players with experience. If that was actually true and consistently applied, why would he draft these toolsy extremely young players who can't play basketball?
Christian Braun (3 picks later) is merely a year older. Walker Kessler (4 picks later) the same
he's just saying that because then he can say "Tre Jones, that's mine!" and expect no follow up questions
Vuc coming off the bench was a different look. It's jarring to see the offense spend 10 seconds trying to through an entry pass after the ball hops around with Zach Collins out there.
It's remarkable how consistently Pat Williams does all the Pat Williams things that make everyone regret Pat Williams. 3 rebounds 3 TOs and 1 missed opportunity to drive to the hoop that Stacey King couldn't stop talking about.
Bulls win again 🙃
And Raptors lose to the Wiz!
The Bulls don’t understand the market for their players. They overpaid Vuc by $3-4M a year. Nobody was giving Pat five years at $19M per year. I’m guessing that his market value would have been 3 years/$12M per year.
I don't bet, but if I could bet on Zion or LaMelo ending up in a Bulls uniform in the next three years, I'd absolutely put down enough money that it would threaten my marriage.
I wouldn't mind Zion too much because he still is awesome AND his contract I'm pretty sure would be easy to get out of if things go bad, though if they were to trade for Zion I probably rather would have just kept Zach too. LaMelo would be just the most Bulls move they could make.
I think Zion is about the most Bulls move they could make too. I don't dislike him by any means, but he doesn't seem to be all that serious about basketball. He'd fit right in with this front office and ownership. They'd get their marketable star and they wouldn't have to worry about him eventually trying to force his way out because he's sick of being on a mediocre team.
And I think getting Zion makes even more sense because of his contract. If you factor out all of his injuries and just look at raw stats (something I expect AK to do), his contract is pretty decent. AK can then tell ownership and the fans that he's acquired a former #1 overall pick who is a multiple time all-star and still in his prime. That's certainly better than draft picks, right? Plus, it jump starts them being competitive again, which is clearly AK's goal and likely also ownership's.
40-60 games from Zion per season is likely enough to ensure mediocrity for the foreseeable future, which is likely enough to satisfy this front office and ownership. The only potential downside is we already know Zion is injury prone and we know the Bulls medical staff is probably the worst in the league. The possibility of Zion suffering a career ending injury while playing for the Bulls is definitely not insignificant.
So yeah, LaMelo or Zion is a Bulls uniform seems to be about the most likely thing I can think of for this team. Now I'm starting to wonder if Lonzo's extension came as part of a play for LaMelo.
I can't get past the injuries with either of those guys. They're just structurally unsound players with enormous risk of injury.
Going through it with DRose and then writ-small with Lonzo and now Pat, and then wanting to pay either of these guys max money is insane.
Like, the only way I'd do it is if I had some serious inside information that these guys had truly fixed their problems. Do I trust the Bulls to do that? Hell no.
Because of the Bulls' long post-Jordan obsession with shooting guards, I keep expecting they'll choose the worst of both worlds - injuries and money - and somehow acquire Bradley Beal.
I am just now listening to the latest Cash Considerations episode and you guys talk about going after Zion and LaMelo. I promise I was not just stealing that for my comment above 😂
Gotta keep changing the lottery. We just have to. This is nuts. These snotty franchises selling rubes on the promise that they'll get good at guitar once their dad buys them a $2000 Gibson is an obscenity against plain-dealing, sports, business, and competition generally. Even odds for every team but the conference finalists is the way to go, imo.
I'm a Wheel believer. There are dozens of us!
https://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-nbas-possible-solution-for-tanking-good-bye-to-the-lottery-hello-to-the-wheel/
Well now, Luke. I'm gonna need you and your buddies to go right back where you belong. Jail!
I'm not self-loathing enough to listen to those 2 men have a conversation, but...
Can you imagine having to go explain yourself when you have his track record? I can't imagine how humiliating it would be for a normal person to have to own his decisions. Not so far for him, I guess. The benefits of being an idiot!
but you also have the confidence in knowing you're appealing to a bigger idiot (Michael Reinsdorf)
Every couple months I think about this hypothetical:
What if AK had done nothing since he started? Same exact roster as when he took over. Just extensions or matches of current deals. This team would be in a wildly better position. They'd have more draft assets. They'd have better veterans to deal. Most of the 2019-2020 team isn't even in the league anymore and I'd take it along with just random picks from the subsequent drafts and they'd have more young talent.
Is this Zork for Bulls' fans?
If so, "check inventory"
This time it will be different.
recap of last night, framed from Bulls talking points
No integrity, as they didn't play anyone not listed out: Vuc, Giddey, Huerter, Lonzo all sat and Dalen "It's my Time" Terry started.
but they were competitive, staying close through three quarters but ultimately giving up 43 points in the 4th and 139 overall
young players (hands down, 25 year olds) with experience report:
Matas played 31 minutes and was fine (just cold from three)
Terry+Phillips in 37 combined minutes had 8 points, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 7 fouls
Zach Collins continues to prove what the rest of the league told AK at the deadline: Vuc's double-doubles are extremely replaceable
"Competitive game. Had it tied up at 107, but for whatever reason we didn't get it done."
(They outscored us 32-10 in the last 7 mins because they are good and we are not.)
It's always the "not sure why" that gets me most
Saw so many people saying the Bulls kept it close but just couldn't hold on. That's not what happened at all. Cleveland gave minimum effort for the first 42 minutes and then decided to actually try for the last six. That's what happened.
That's what's been happening over the last couple weeks when the Bulls have been losing close games to good teams. The Bulls aren't nearly as good as those good teams. The good teams just aren't trying for most of the game because we're in the final stretch of the season where good teams are giving minimal effort in order to save themselves for the playoffs.
With Collins, it's striking to see the impact of a guy who is neutral to positive on defense vs. Vucevic's traffic cone impersonation. Particularly the rim protection aspect: per Crafted NBA, Collins is like 81st percentile and Vuc is 41st percentile.
I've been seeing so many comments on various Bulls sites about how great Zach Collins is and it just goes to show how fans have gotten so used to watching genuinely bad centers play for the Bulls.
Zach Collins is a mediocre basketball player at his best. Like a solid backup or maybe a decent spot starter. But he makes smart basketball plays and actually plays hard, which is something Bulls fans haven't seen from Vooch, Drummond, or WCJ.
Do I want to see Collins in a Bulls uniform beyond next season? Nope. I'd actually prefer if they could trade him for something decent this summer. But boy has it been nice watching a guy who actually understands his role and who goes out there and plays hard.
BTW, game threads are cancelled the rest of the season due to lack of interest
Tough but fair.
Can the league cancel the rest of Bulls games due to lack of interest?
I see Coby dropped 44 in Orlando to show their FO who they need to go after this summer 😏😏
The Magic are cowards
But I wouldn't be surprised - based on other teams saying this about dealing with the Bulls - if they put a good offer to the Bulls and AK did a nonsensical counter offer
If I remember correctly, they were specifically named at the deadline as having reached out to the Bulls expressing their interest in Coby. I'd be curious if there was an actual offer and what that offer may have been.
they probably offered a protected first in 2028 or something, and AK can't think that far ahead (because he knows he won't be around, especially if he doesn't get things turned around more quickly).
essentially the entire thesis of this very post
Orlando game recap, framed with Bulls talking points:
This justified not trading Coby White at the deadline, because why would they trade a good player to a team they are competitive with? Orlando now 1-2 against the Bulls this season, free-falling after back-to-back home losses to the Raptors and now in the 9th seed. A mere 3.5 games from the Bulls getting that home revenue for the opening play-in game.
This is very important for the Bulls to have Coby White have big performances in meaningful games, though saw how last season's play-in win over the Hawks carried over into this year in that it didn't at all.
Young player development:
Buzelis scored 8 of his 11 points in the opening stint. Second half pulled after 90 seconds, but was in for the final ten minutes at center as the Bulls surged (or more accurately watched Magic trip over themselves), that's called winning habits!
Josh Giddey continues to get to the line by being so awkward looking referees figure surely he must've been fouled to put up shots like that. 2/13 last three games from 3
Phillips pushed down the rotation but played in that final stretch as well bc Collins and Smith fouled out. Vuc return looming to fuck this all up lmao.
Billy pulling Matas 90 seconds into the second half was ridiculous. And he probably only played late in the game because the Bulls two centers had fouled out. Really letting these young guys learn!
The Bulls are going to finish 15-20 games below .500 and still make the play-in. The bottom third of the East is terrible this year. Pat Riley going to make a few bucks on a Bulls Play-In Threepeat shirt sales.
not important but funny to see people warm up to Tre Jones as a suitable backup PG but the problem is the Bulls already have THREE others in that role (Giddey, Ball, Carter)
I can't believe AK is going to try and tout Jones, Huerter, and Collins as players he targeted when they were mandatory for salary fill-in, plus the better they play the more it shows that they over-committed to their own guys in Ball and Vuc
Tre Jones was the player I was highest on in that trade. Not because I think he's good but just because he's a competent backup point guard whose stock wasn't at an all-time low like the other two. The problem is the Bulls don't need a competent backup point guard and he's expiring, so it's not like they can trade him for anything this summer.
while we're posting podcast clips of dunking on our Bulls, here is a good dissection of Josh Giddey's recent surge, called "the Punxatayny Phil of Mickey Mouse March"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CHZD06tY4&ab_channel=YouKnowBallwithTrillBroDude
Could you write a new article so I don't have to look at the gigantic picture of that idiot every time I visit the page?
Matas gets subbed back into the game with roughly five minutes left. Stacey and Adam immediately make note of the fact that Buzelis hasn't finished games much and question if he'll remain in for the rest of the game.
*Matas makes bad pass with roughly four minutes to go.*
*Billy immediately subs him out for the remainder of the game.*
Classic.
If AK wants to justify his upcoming Giddey extension just send a printout to Kinkos of Bulls reddit, yeesh
It's fitting that he's doing well with that age group hey-o
I think that subreddit has been overrun by Australian fans. Giddey still has a decent amount of doubters over there but they get downvoted into oblivion.
Giddey is getting more expensive by the game. Another triple double last night and +25! I am also feeling better about his defense. That was a key block he made against Herro in the last couple minutes.
If anybody looks at DunksandThrees, Giddey's defensive EPM is now at the 48th percentile.
And he has been playing really well alongside Coby.
Up until his injury, people on Bullls Reddit were still trying to justify Pat Williams’ contract.
Dalen with an incredible -23 in 8:24 in a game we won! That's awesome. Is that better than just going 4-on-5? Who's to say? The important thing is we've got him locked up for next year.
it's his time
AK gives up the game - kind of my overall point in this post - when saying he values young players with experience. If that was actually true and consistently applied, why would he draft these toolsy extremely young players who can't play basketball?
Christian Braun (3 picks later) is merely a year older. Walker Kessler (4 picks later) the same
he's just saying that because then he can say "Tre Jones, that's mine!" and expect no follow up questions
of note (if anything is)
Vuc AND Pat are, for some reason, returning tonight versus the Pacers. They are both coming off the bench and on minutes limits.
Lonzo is out, and Donovan is discussing it like they may shut him down. So important to get that extension in and raise his trade value, oy...
Vuc coming off the bench was a different look. It's jarring to see the offense spend 10 seconds trying to through an entry pass after the ball hops around with Zach Collins out there.
It's remarkable how consistently Pat Williams does all the Pat Williams things that make everyone regret Pat Williams. 3 rebounds 3 TOs and 1 missed opportunity to drive to the hoop that Stacey King couldn't stop talking about.
These returns moved Jalen Smith out of the rotation. That was a big 'young player with experience' coup for AK, concerning...