I mean, I get it. Just thinking out loud though., you could make a trade at the draft for Paul, and say, Kevin Looney, and then dump Paul by the June 28 option deadline. With any luck, I can pocket Looney, and hopefully a pick , then let Paul walk to...wherever.
anyway I'm saying here that even if AK is able to pull off a LaVine trade, it'll be of the salary dump variety (like you described) and not really significant change
I find almost any trade proposal I can think of fails to pass either the credibility test or the "why even bother?" test.
Like you can imagine Washington scraping together a trade based around Jordan Poole and either Shamet or Richaun Holmes for LaVine. This saves the Bulls quite a lot of money over 3 years, and for Washington LaVine is easily the most talented player in the deal. But why would Washington even bother? LaVine and Kuzma could play them dangerously close to a playin, they haven't come close to drafting something like a future star yet.
Maybe they'd do it if there were picks but the Bulls don't have any. We don't even have any 2nd round picks to offer them like the package they took back from Phoenix.
Anyway, the total paucity of tradeable assets makes you realize that Karnisovas best and nearly only option is based on really shitty gambles like that: trading damaged goods for damaged goods and hope the ones we get back hold up a little better than the ones we send out. I don't even think dumps are givens, because the market for Vucevic and DeRozan is so limited and whoever winds up with Zach has to have enough disposable shit to send out and be comfy with the fact that this is it, this will be their last big move for awhile. And I doubt anyone sees Zach as the missing link.
Poison pill looks like the only way the Bulls are getting off Lavine or Vucevic. You have to attach Caruso or White to simply get a team to take him. I can't see where the trade return would even be a consideration. Anybody they'd get back (Simmons? Wiggins? for Lavine, any rando $20M wastoid for Vuc) would just be someone you'd send home with a severance check. I still think they should do it.
Though I must admit if they do that it would be the significant change promised
I guess I agree that AK is kind of boxing himself in here...thinking addition by subtraction will be enough with LaVine but you're correct even that kind of deal is hard to conceive. Even the Pistons are going to be under new management, and it's so much easier your first year on the job to simply not trade for Zach LaVine
"He cited the 39 win total being inflated by clutch+overtime victories as a positive"
I took it the opposite way. I thought he was saying we overperformed there, which is great for a given season, but unsustainable and showed how poorly the team worked as a whole.
We're both interpreting. I was just saying I disagreed with your interpretation an elaborating on how I interpreted it.
For anyone who did not bother to sit through the presser,this was the quote:
"Even with some of the positivity... with you know, with clutch wins and overtime wins, we're still at 39 and we play in. And we have to somehow generate an additional 10 wins."
I felt he was acknowledging that needing those positive outcomes to get to 39 wins was a clear problem.
IMO the Bulls overachieved this season considering how bad the season began and with LaVine and Williams going down. Donovan and the team did an excellent job to at least be competitive and make it to the play in games. The Bulls have hit their ceiling though which was very predictable.
I feel Coby basically pulled a Zach. Was a lot of fun to watch in the regular season and his play is what really kept the bulls season from just absolutely tanking - and while I'm glad he had that nice play in game against the hawks, he followed that up with a very Zach-like performance against Miami. The only difference is that Coby is younger and on such a nice contract... And that alone salavages whatever the hell the bulls were trying to build the last few years
I think that's kinda harsh against Coby. Everyone was pretty much horrible against mia and the game wasn't close. Last year the Bulls had a chance to win that game and Zach shot 28%. Plus Zach rightly had a lot more expectations as a scorer given he averaged like 5ppg more, not insignificant.
Nah I love Coby white, and my main point was that he gave this team what Zach was giving us, but being younger and cheaper. He saved the hulls season, but (because I've been spending way more time on bulls reddit than I should) I wanted to temper any expectations that this team is right now any better than what it was with Zach.
Like if Zach stayed on the team and Coby didn't have his emergence, we would be in the same exact situation. So we didn't over achieve, and with Coby the roster construction is salvaged (no need for Zach and his hefty contract) but we're very much still in the same spot as we were last year roster. Quality wise (at least rn)
I mean he did. The whole team sucking doesn't mean Coby has to as well. He went from having one of his most efficient and dominant games to having one of his worst. 4 turnovers (team high) as well.
Coby is a good role player but not nearly good enough to build around. Coby is nowhere near Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, SGA, etc. If Coby is a team's first or second option on offense, then the team is very bad offensively.
The thing about Coby, and it feels sacrilegious to even bring it up since we all love the guy and appreciate his hard work, is his numbers didn't move all that much from last year. It's just that he got more playing time. Per 100 possessions, his turnovers were up, steals were down, defensive rating declined. His scoring was up, FT % declined, 3P% stayed the same. His PER was up nicely and his BPM was just about the same as last year. A real mixed bag, though he eye-tested well. He's like Cam Thomas-ish or Collin Sexton-ish. I'm not enthused about him as a building block.
I think his role changed a bit since last season, he was handling the ball more this season. His USG% was more comparable to his second season, where they tried to make him play PG only, and his TOV% is down from that. The primary thing I noticed this year is his 3PAr is way down and his FTAr is up. And the shooting splits show he's going inside way more, it's not like adding to midrange or anything, and he's getting rewarded for that with FTs.
No one thinks Coby is like SGA or Brunson. But there is a huge gulf between Collin Sexton and those guys, and Coby is young enough that he almost certainly is well in between.
I feel Kat may be available in the summer. It would take a third team (Charlotte or Orlando... I think the former is a bit more likely) but the bulls could pull a Vuc trade part two ( I'm aware of how terrible this sounds) and maybe strike a deal that brings Kat here. He would essentially be everything we hoped Vuc would be..
I can't post the image, but the trade that I thought made some sense was hornets get lavine, bulls get Kat and Cody Martin , and wolves get bertans, grant Williams. I don't know...
While I think we all agree the Vuc trade was terribly executed and has had even worse long term effects with his re-signing, I still feel AKME had the right idea.
The goal of course is to be like an LA or Miami (despite the geographical disadvantages) where all the free agents just want to play for us, but until (if ever) we get to that point; if we're just like the Knicks, where we just throw money at whatever big name is available, I'll take it.
If nothing more, just for the perpetual national attention - in hopes that the national media can shed more light on the incompetence of the front office because our local media is too scared to do itself. No better motivator than shame, and our locals just have not been capable of generating enough to change anything in the last 20 or so years.
Don't think that the Vucevic trade with Orlando was bad. Maybe not good either. Wendell Carter is just an average center at best maybe below average. The two first round picks turned out to be Franz Wagner and Jeff Howard. Franz Wagner is a good player no doubt. Jeff Howard is a 'to be determined later'. Vucevic has been a good center, certainly not a star. The Bulls have not been breaking the bank to pay Vucevic. The Bulls have gotten their money's worth with Vucevic. Bulls have to put somebody on the court to play center.
I was fully on board with going after Reid or Hartenstein last summer. Either would have likely signed here and both would have been way better than Vooch.
Plus, they already had a center in Andre Drummond. I argued with lots of people about this so whatever, but the idea that "they had to keep him because no one better was available" is both poor thinking and not true.
I'd make an argument that Drummond was just as good as Vucevic this year, but even if you don't buy that, was Vucevic $57 million better? Not in any conceivable way.
Drummond is a good backup center but has zero range. Can only score when he is about two feet from the basket. I understand that there is more to the game than just scoring.
I didn't hate it at the time, it showed they were trying, though with 2 picks even at the time felt like an overpay... the problem was how they handled it afterwards. Not trading him when they had the chance, and then the ridiculous extension, and just no longer trying in general lol. I think it would have been fine had they cut their losses when he was expiring... hey not all moves work out. But no... offering the dude 20 mil, wtf?
Yea, I've never once thought about lavine as being hurt (physically) . His tenure in Chicago ended this year, now it's just a matter of getting something of substance back for him. His health was only a way to get him out of playing for the Bulls. I mean i do appreciate him trying to be the man, and in return he got a max contract. We can part ways now amicably
With three more seasons at a total of $138 million all guaranteed, doubt teams will take a chance on LaVine until they see him play again. Bulls would be better off trying to resurrect LaVine. Bulls might as well. Can't make LaVine's contract disappear. LaVine is a great offensive talent.
i'm holding out hope that teams will be told by Klutch that Zach is fine and the surgery was just something he could take care of now and not be traded to Detroit
KC on the radio (hate their later stuff...) today chuckling at the thought of a Trae Young trade, because he is not Bulls material or whatever and 'people talk about Zach LaVine not being a winning player, what about Trae?!?!'
Trae led a team to the conference finals. There are caveats there but it's far far more than LaVine has ever accomplished.
Yeah, I only like him if you also trade White or something, but even then, like, why? Trae Young and Coby White and Ayo does not inspire a lot of confidence in "winning."
Trae does not fit with the roster at all. Trae and Coby. Nope. Trae and Vuc? LOL. It would require a complete teardown/rebuild which we know is not happening.
He's not immaterial just because you don't like him and he isn't good. He is under contract. The fit of a major acquisition with existing contracted players is important. So, unless the plan is a major rebuild (it isn't), it makes no sense to bring in Trae Young.
and Vuc is also not important in distinguishing whether this is a major rebuild or not. That's pass/fail on DeRozan returning. If he's not back, it's a major rebuild, whether that means also dumping Vuc or simply benching him or playing him (tanking)
AK admits he can't run it back heading into an offseason where luxury tax considerations will likely prevent him from running it back... I think I see what's going in here.
Heading into an offseason where luxury tax considerations will likely prevent him from running it back, and where contracts of players he would like to trade will force him to run it back.
And? Somehow he still had a True Shooting %age far above Vucevic's.
He's a tremendous offensive rebounder which Vuc can't do because he stands around the perimeter. Having Vucevic shoot 29% from 3 doesn't make him better than Drummond. I'd say it makes him far worse.
Just because a player can try to do things doesn't mean he should.
Exactly, the common thing said about Vuc is that he spaces stuff out because of the three point shooting, but no one guards him out there! He takes tons of wide open three and still hits only 29% of them!
So you end up with limited spacing combined with sub standard three point shooting and no offensive rebounding. And no rim protection.
The only areas where Vuc wins is knucklehead stuff and facilitating. This off-season should be all about finding someone, anyone, who still values his skillset. Sadly Doris Burke is not a gm.
It’s a lot like a crappier older version of Sabonis, I don’t think you can win with these kind of bigs without a whole bunch of other stuff around them
I don't understand the idea of making significant changes, but keeping Vucevic, Ball, DeRozan, White, and Williams. Offloading Lavine only, is just running back the team we had the second half of the year. I don't know what AK expects from Ball and the returns from a Lavine trade, but I don't have high hopes.
The team needs a significant youth investment in center and power forward, and less allocation to guards. Love Caruso but we need to get some young assets for him to change this mix. Is Terry going to find an NBA jump shot in one year? He's far off.
The team is really lacking top level talent and needs to take swings to be competitive not just next year but three years from now.
This is the part that worries me. I'm all for not changing for the sake of it - the Suns and Hawks, to me, are examples of messing with relative success. The Bulls are not those teams.
LaVine, White, Dosunmu, Caruso, Carter, Ball, Terry, Craig and Vucevic are all under contract. Doesn't seem possible to trade some of these players, considering their contracts.
Ball and lavine are probably the hardest to move from that list. The bulls will keep lonzo cuz he does a good job of eating the cap while reinsdorf actually doesn't have to pay (insurance), so really lavine is the big contract that they'll move just so they don't have to pay. I think Carter and Craig can be moved but won't net the bulls much at all, Caruso and white are extremely tradeable
Why do you think other teams would want Carter and Craig? Both had very poor seasons. Especially Carter. What team would want to pay Carter $6.5 million for next season and Carter's player option for $6.8 million the following season? The Bulls could be stuck with both.
I mean, Craig's season was pretty average for him. Plus he's making like 2.5 million dollars and it has one year left. I'm sure they could get rid of him, but also because he's cheap and okay-ish why not just keep him.
Carter on the other hand... yeah. I mean he either overperformed in Mil or they played to his strengths better. Maybe both. This team was not the fit for him.
I think teams will want Craig for this price. I am not sure anyone really wants Carter given his play, but I think they will accept him in a larger trade.
He was really solid in the beginning of the season, so I don't understand the fall off. By the end of the year it wasn't just his shooting, but his defense and decision making were poor as well.
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget Craig has a player option for next year. Dude's on the minimum. It's not like he couldn't get that anywhere else.
He came in talking about wanting to help this team get more serious about basketball and looked like he was checked out by the end of the season. Can't really blame him. My guess is he opts out about as quickly as he can.
I'm glad Chris Fleming is gone, he was hired under Boylen not as some random specialist but his lead assistant and outlived him for reasons I can't fathom. This is how we wound up with Gar, btw, long after the guy he came in with was fired.
Of course it probably means a huge promotion for Billy Donovan IV, Esq or whatever.
stuck around probably because he was well paid. And AK worked with him in Denver
he was a head coaching candidate which is why he probably came on board under Boylen. But working for the Bulls damages your reputation, he interviewed for Knicks job in 2020 but not rumored anywhere since, and Donovan is apparently tenured so this job isn't opening
KC was listing positives with this team and saying "they have finalists for several major awards!", when MiP and Clutch are actually the most minor awards
yeah I mean clutch is a brand new award lol. It's fun but definitely feels like one of those random consolation prize categories and not a serious award.
Sorry I really should know better. I'll try to stick to any sourced rumors, though the Bulls have shut out local 'media' to only morsels like assistant coaching promotions
A dream scenario - if this was a different organization - would be rolling the dice on someone like Isaac. But it’s the Bulls. Out of respect for his game and his future in the league, I don’t want our medical staff anywhere near him
Jonathan Isaac is everything this team needs. Great size, versatile defender, excellent paint protector. Seems to be improving his three point shot, even though it's only about two attempts per game. He would cover for so many of Vooch's defensive flaws.
And that's exactly why he will never be a Bull. Also, as you said, dude has a significant injury history. Knowing our medical staff, he'd likely be paralyzed within two years.
Agreed. That is what the Bull's team was missing right from training camp. A tall athletic power forward who can run the court, rebound, defend, block shots, etc. A player such as Jaden McDaniels or Jonathan Isaac. Bulls were too small last season.
The easiest fix would have been to not re-sign Vooch and instead sign a good defensive center. Both Naz Reid and Isaiah Hartenstein were available last summer and either could have been signed for fairly cheap. But no, AK had to double-down on Vooch.
Honestly, I think I'd take Hartenstein over Reid after the season he's had in New York this year. With that being said, I did want Naz Reid more last summer and I'd have happily taken either of those guys.
did we honestly expect AK to say " we're going to trade Lavine / Vooch etc ???? My fear is that he'll say that there were no good deals available and F###### wait again !
There should be no player on the bulls roster who feels safe . We should recoup as many assets as we can and start fresh
Unfortunately your paragraphs kind of contradict each other. We can't really trade Zach or Vooch right now for assets because their contracts are so bad. If AK can find suitors for either or both of those guys this summer that are actually willing to give us something decent in return, I hope he pulls the trigger. It's just unlikely.
The better option would be to let DeMar walk (or preferably sign-and-trade him) and then bring back Zach and Vooch as tank commanders. Zach can go back to averaging 26 a night on pretty efficient shooting and Vooch can put up 18 and 11 while the team is terrible. And then at the deadline, hopefully someone will be desperate enough and see their "good" stat lines and take a swing on them.
AK has backed himself into a corner. He may genuinely want to get rid of Zach and Vooch this summer, but he won't be willing to give them away for nothing. And unfortunately for him, most teams don't want Zach or Vooch thanks to the fact that both of them kind of aren't good and they're both way overpaid.
Agreed. Don't pay DeRozan. Let Patrick Williams be the small forward. IMO it doesn't work well having LaVine and DeRozan. They both need the ball. The reality is that the Bulls have a contract with LaVine for better or worse. When healthy, LaVine is an amazing offensive talent. Might be the Bulls best option to hope that LaVine can make a strong comeback as you are saying.
I think we have different views of LaVine. I want him to come back and be who he's always been - an empty calorie scorer - so that we can then trade him for a decent return.
I don't think if DeMar doesn't come back and LaVine does that all of a sudden LaVine is going to be a far more impactful player than he ever has been. He's a truly gifted scorer and I think he could be very impactful in the right situation but that's not in Chicago. He's a bad defender and has low basketball IQ. Him being the best player on the team will never lead to many wins.
You are correct. When LaVine went out, it was great watching the Bulls share the ball, get back on defense, get the spacing on offense right, dive for loose balls, etc. Maybe just wishful thinking on my part. Wish that LaVine could learn from what he saw while out of action. The Bulls do struggle to score without LaVine. The Bulls' other guards struggle to create their own shot.
Sort of in between small forward and a power forward. Williams can certainly play as a small forward. Can put the ball on the floor. Can shoot from long range and mid range and take the ball to the rim.
I'm starting to think #1 priority is a starting center
then can bench Vuc if he's not traded, and for whatever reason they're very concerned about Vuc's feelings so this would help any "pain" of a trash salary dump with him
I suppose that could be Drummond (they have early bird rights but is more or less the same as any free agent), but while a better value isn't a better player, and Donovan agrees and will always start Vuc. So that kind of eliminates that option.
What makes you think they're so focused on a center? Like why bring Vooch back last year at a huge overpay just to move on from him this year? Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right. I'm just curious why you think a center is their #1 priority.
Ah I gotcha. I don't know why I read that as "I'm starting to think their #1 priority is a starting center." I definitely agree that it should be. But we both know it's probably not.
this LaVine contract is so bad lol. $43M next season and (I'd have to research but think this is true) it almost eliminates several suitors as they can't add salary in a trade once near 2nd apron. And Bulls primary motivation here is to lower salary.
I think Lakers would still do this, because they're the type of team that irrationally believes in LaVine, and they can get Caruso back. That's $53M though
Here's what can work salary-wise. Bulls also get a 1st rounder, so they can lie and say LaVine was positive value after all
Russell+Rui+2-3 more depending on player options (Christian Wood, etc.)
then you also have to take back Gabe Vincent ($11M) and send them Jevon Carter ($6.5M)
That only shaves off ~$7M for this year, but you can hopefully downscale more trading Russell. Or use him and other contracts to get a better player than LaVine
Was my experience last year that the more contracts you added to LaVine, and the more you'd have to add on the other side to match... then after a couple of moves it becomes the kind of deal that probably doesn't solve any of the reasons why either side would make the deal in the first place.
Every untradable contract of a reasonably healthy player eventually does become tradable but Karnisovas, per his character, waited too long to do it. It is entirely possible to imagine the Suns having more interest in LaVine than Beal (Beal makes even more than LaVine for the same number of years and is older, Beal is a better ballhandler but he's not Chris Paul and LaVine is the same or better in everything else). That was likely the last perfect storm of a motivated buyer with any assets to speak of and useful contracts to trade for awhile.
The Lakers will have something, I guess. I just really wonder why, if they were motivated, they wouldn't have already done it when they could claim to have limited draft assets. They'll have much more this summer, and I suspect they're expecting something better than 3 years of LaVine if they're throwing up to 3 first round picks into the mix.
I mean, I get it. Just thinking out loud though., you could make a trade at the draft for Paul, and say, Kevin Looney, and then dump Paul by the June 28 option deadline. With any luck, I can pocket Looney, and hopefully a pick , then let Paul walk to...wherever.
Seems like about my best option at the moment.
for LaVine?
I just don't see the Warriors - who also want to lower payroll - using that Chris Paul contract to get LaVine at $40M
maybe if the Bulls took back Wiggins
Yeah. I could get see that.
anyway I'm saying here that even if AK is able to pull off a LaVine trade, it'll be of the salary dump variety (like you described) and not really significant change
I find almost any trade proposal I can think of fails to pass either the credibility test or the "why even bother?" test.
Like you can imagine Washington scraping together a trade based around Jordan Poole and either Shamet or Richaun Holmes for LaVine. This saves the Bulls quite a lot of money over 3 years, and for Washington LaVine is easily the most talented player in the deal. But why would Washington even bother? LaVine and Kuzma could play them dangerously close to a playin, they haven't come close to drafting something like a future star yet.
Maybe they'd do it if there were picks but the Bulls don't have any. We don't even have any 2nd round picks to offer them like the package they took back from Phoenix.
Anyway, the total paucity of tradeable assets makes you realize that Karnisovas best and nearly only option is based on really shitty gambles like that: trading damaged goods for damaged goods and hope the ones we get back hold up a little better than the ones we send out. I don't even think dumps are givens, because the market for Vucevic and DeRozan is so limited and whoever winds up with Zach has to have enough disposable shit to send out and be comfy with the fact that this is it, this will be their last big move for awhile. And I doubt anyone sees Zach as the missing link.
I think it'll be not a pure dump but a trade disguised as one.
Like LaVine + Ayo/Coby/Caruso getting you less than what trading the positive asset alone would've
Poison pill looks like the only way the Bulls are getting off Lavine or Vucevic. You have to attach Caruso or White to simply get a team to take him. I can't see where the trade return would even be a consideration. Anybody they'd get back (Simmons? Wiggins? for Lavine, any rando $20M wastoid for Vuc) would just be someone you'd send home with a severance check. I still think they should do it.
Though I must admit if they do that it would be the significant change promised
I guess I agree that AK is kind of boxing himself in here...thinking addition by subtraction will be enough with LaVine but you're correct even that kind of deal is hard to conceive. Even the Pistons are going to be under new management, and it's so much easier your first year on the job to simply not trade for Zach LaVine
"He cited the 39 win total being inflated by clutch+overtime victories as a positive"
I took it the opposite way. I thought he was saying we overperformed there, which is great for a given season, but unsustainable and showed how poorly the team worked as a whole.
he didn't say anything like that
if you're interpreting that he meant it that way, that's...well, open to interpretation
We're both interpreting. I was just saying I disagreed with your interpretation an elaborating on how I interpreted it.
For anyone who did not bother to sit through the presser,this was the quote:
"Even with some of the positivity... with you know, with clutch wins and overtime wins, we're still at 39 and we play in. And we have to somehow generate an additional 10 wins."
I felt he was acknowledging that needing those positive outcomes to get to 39 wins was a clear problem.
yeah, I think he was just listing that as a positive
IMO the Bulls overachieved this season considering how bad the season began and with LaVine and Williams going down. Donovan and the team did an excellent job to at least be competitive and make it to the play in games. The Bulls have hit their ceiling though which was very predictable.
I feel Coby basically pulled a Zach. Was a lot of fun to watch in the regular season and his play is what really kept the bulls season from just absolutely tanking - and while I'm glad he had that nice play in game against the hawks, he followed that up with a very Zach-like performance against Miami. The only difference is that Coby is younger and on such a nice contract... And that alone salavages whatever the hell the bulls were trying to build the last few years
I think that's kinda harsh against Coby. Everyone was pretty much horrible against mia and the game wasn't close. Last year the Bulls had a chance to win that game and Zach shot 28%. Plus Zach rightly had a lot more expectations as a scorer given he averaged like 5ppg more, not insignificant.
Nah I love Coby white, and my main point was that he gave this team what Zach was giving us, but being younger and cheaper. He saved the hulls season, but (because I've been spending way more time on bulls reddit than I should) I wanted to temper any expectations that this team is right now any better than what it was with Zach.
Like if Zach stayed on the team and Coby didn't have his emergence, we would be in the same exact situation. So we didn't over achieve, and with Coby the roster construction is salvaged (no need for Zach and his hefty contract) but we're very much still in the same spot as we were last year roster. Quality wise (at least rn)
yeah but then you said he pulled a Zach by choking. The whole team just sucked lol.
I mean he did. The whole team sucking doesn't mean Coby has to as well. He went from having one of his most efficient and dominant games to having one of his worst. 4 turnovers (team high) as well.
Coby is a good role player but not nearly good enough to build around. Coby is nowhere near Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, SGA, etc. If Coby is a team's first or second option on offense, then the team is very bad offensively.
The thing about Coby, and it feels sacrilegious to even bring it up since we all love the guy and appreciate his hard work, is his numbers didn't move all that much from last year. It's just that he got more playing time. Per 100 possessions, his turnovers were up, steals were down, defensive rating declined. His scoring was up, FT % declined, 3P% stayed the same. His PER was up nicely and his BPM was just about the same as last year. A real mixed bag, though he eye-tested well. He's like Cam Thomas-ish or Collin Sexton-ish. I'm not enthused about him as a building block.
I think his role changed a bit since last season, he was handling the ball more this season. His USG% was more comparable to his second season, where they tried to make him play PG only, and his TOV% is down from that. The primary thing I noticed this year is his 3PAr is way down and his FTAr is up. And the shooting splits show he's going inside way more, it's not like adding to midrange or anything, and he's getting rewarded for that with FTs.
Agreed. A good role player but nearly good enough to build around. Not even close to SGA or Brunson.
No one thinks Coby is like SGA or Brunson. But there is a huge gulf between Collin Sexton and those guys, and Coby is young enough that he almost certainly is well in between.
I feel Kat may be available in the summer. It would take a third team (Charlotte or Orlando... I think the former is a bit more likely) but the bulls could pull a Vuc trade part two ( I'm aware of how terrible this sounds) and maybe strike a deal that brings Kat here. He would essentially be everything we hoped Vuc would be..
I can't post the image, but the trade that I thought made some sense was hornets get lavine, bulls get Kat and Cody Martin , and wolves get bertans, grant Williams. I don't know...
yes I would be in favor of star chasing, and you're gonna get a defective star like KAT or Trae Young to even be available
still better than having LaVine be that star IMO
While I think we all agree the Vuc trade was terribly executed and has had even worse long term effects with his re-signing, I still feel AKME had the right idea.
The goal of course is to be like an LA or Miami (despite the geographical disadvantages) where all the free agents just want to play for us, but until (if ever) we get to that point; if we're just like the Knicks, where we just throw money at whatever big name is available, I'll take it.
If nothing more, just for the perpetual national attention - in hopes that the national media can shed more light on the incompetence of the front office because our local media is too scared to do itself. No better motivator than shame, and our locals just have not been capable of generating enough to change anything in the last 20 or so years.
Don't think that the Vucevic trade with Orlando was bad. Maybe not good either. Wendell Carter is just an average center at best maybe below average. The two first round picks turned out to be Franz Wagner and Jeff Howard. Franz Wagner is a good player no doubt. Jeff Howard is a 'to be determined later'. Vucevic has been a good center, certainly not a star. The Bulls have not been breaking the bank to pay Vucevic. The Bulls have gotten their money's worth with Vucevic. Bulls have to put somebody on the court to play center.
I would have tampered and offered Naz Reid whatever they were paying Vucevic. I said so at the time, and I still say so now.
I was fully on board with going after Reid or Hartenstein last summer. Either would have likely signed here and both would have been way better than Vooch.
Plus, they already had a center in Andre Drummond. I argued with lots of people about this so whatever, but the idea that "they had to keep him because no one better was available" is both poor thinking and not true.
I'd make an argument that Drummond was just as good as Vucevic this year, but even if you don't buy that, was Vucevic $57 million better? Not in any conceivable way.
Drummond is a good backup center but has zero range. Can only score when he is about two feet from the basket. I understand that there is more to the game than just scoring.
it wasn't bad as a concept, it was bad in execution because Vucevic is bad
I didn't hate it at the time, it showed they were trying, though with 2 picks even at the time felt like an overpay... the problem was how they handled it afterwards. Not trading him when they had the chance, and then the ridiculous extension, and just no longer trying in general lol. I think it would have been fine had they cut their losses when he was expiring... hey not all moves work out. But no... offering the dude 20 mil, wtf?
Agreed. The best scenario would be for LaVine to have a healthy comeback.
did people black out the traumatic memory of the "healthy" LaVine Bulls going 5-14?
Yea, I've never once thought about lavine as being hurt (physically) . His tenure in Chicago ended this year, now it's just a matter of getting something of substance back for him. His health was only a way to get him out of playing for the Bulls. I mean i do appreciate him trying to be the man, and in return he got a max contract. We can part ways now amicably
With three more seasons at a total of $138 million all guaranteed, doubt teams will take a chance on LaVine until they see him play again. Bulls would be better off trying to resurrect LaVine. Bulls might as well. Can't make LaVine's contract disappear. LaVine is a great offensive talent.
i'm holding out hope that teams will be told by Klutch that Zach is fine and the surgery was just something he could take care of now and not be traded to Detroit
KC on the radio (hate their later stuff...) today chuckling at the thought of a Trae Young trade, because he is not Bulls material or whatever and 'people talk about Zach LaVine not being a winning player, what about Trae?!?!'
Trae led a team to the conference finals. There are caveats there but it's far far more than LaVine has ever accomplished.
yeah I hate when the bulls act too good for people. Well not all people, there are definitely some dudes I wouldn't want on the team... but yeah.
Though I don't think Trae does that much for us and he's also hurt a lot though not as much as Zach lol.
Yeah, I only like him if you also trade White or something, but even then, like, why? Trae Young and Coby White and Ayo does not inspire a lot of confidence in "winning."
Trae does not fit with the roster at all. Trae and Coby. Nope. Trae and Vuc? LOL. It would require a complete teardown/rebuild which we know is not happening.
Vuc is immaterial
He's not immaterial just because you don't like him and he isn't good. He is under contract. The fit of a major acquisition with existing contracted players is important. So, unless the plan is a major rebuild (it isn't), it makes no sense to bring in Trae Young.
he should be immaterial in that he has no impact on who you bring in.
I agree he doesn't fit with Trae. But answer is to get rid of Vuc (you can do this with players under contract, I swear) not decline bringing in Trae
and Vuc is also not important in distinguishing whether this is a major rebuild or not. That's pass/fail on DeRozan returning. If he's not back, it's a major rebuild, whether that means also dumping Vuc or simply benching him or playing him (tanking)
AK admits he can't run it back heading into an offseason where luxury tax considerations will likely prevent him from running it back... I think I see what's going in here.
Heading into an offseason where luxury tax considerations will likely prevent him from running it back, and where contracts of players he would like to trade will force him to run it back.
And? Somehow he still had a True Shooting %age far above Vucevic's.
He's a tremendous offensive rebounder which Vuc can't do because he stands around the perimeter. Having Vucevic shoot 29% from 3 doesn't make him better than Drummond. I'd say it makes him far worse.
Just because a player can try to do things doesn't mean he should.
Exactly, the common thing said about Vuc is that he spaces stuff out because of the three point shooting, but no one guards him out there! He takes tons of wide open three and still hits only 29% of them!
So you end up with limited spacing combined with sub standard three point shooting and no offensive rebounding. And no rim protection.
The only areas where Vuc wins is knucklehead stuff and facilitating. This off-season should be all about finding someone, anyone, who still values his skillset. Sadly Doris Burke is not a gm.
It’s a lot like a crappier older version of Sabonis, I don’t think you can win with these kind of bigs without a whole bunch of other stuff around them
it's a simple game neil funk
I don't understand the idea of making significant changes, but keeping Vucevic, Ball, DeRozan, White, and Williams. Offloading Lavine only, is just running back the team we had the second half of the year. I don't know what AK expects from Ball and the returns from a Lavine trade, but I don't have high hopes.
The team needs a significant youth investment in center and power forward, and less allocation to guards. Love Caruso but we need to get some young assets for him to change this mix. Is Terry going to find an NBA jump shot in one year? He's far off.
The team is really lacking top level talent and needs to take swings to be competitive not just next year but three years from now.
I think AK believes the post LaVine injury pre Williams injury team was good
he thought so at the deadline, and while saying 'in totality, a failure' a lot that does not preclude his belief in that segment
any Lonzo comment I'm just hoping they're being polite
This is the part that worries me. I'm all for not changing for the sake of it - the Suns and Hawks, to me, are examples of messing with relative success. The Bulls are not those teams.
LaVine, White, Dosunmu, Caruso, Carter, Ball, Terry, Craig and Vucevic are all under contract. Doesn't seem possible to trade some of these players, considering their contracts.
Ball and lavine are probably the hardest to move from that list. The bulls will keep lonzo cuz he does a good job of eating the cap while reinsdorf actually doesn't have to pay (insurance), so really lavine is the big contract that they'll move just so they don't have to pay. I think Carter and Craig can be moved but won't net the bulls much at all, Caruso and white are extremely tradeable
Why do you think other teams would want Carter and Craig? Both had very poor seasons. Especially Carter. What team would want to pay Carter $6.5 million for next season and Carter's player option for $6.8 million the following season? The Bulls could be stuck with both.
I mean, Craig's season was pretty average for him. Plus he's making like 2.5 million dollars and it has one year left. I'm sure they could get rid of him, but also because he's cheap and okay-ish why not just keep him.
Carter on the other hand... yeah. I mean he either overperformed in Mil or they played to his strengths better. Maybe both. This team was not the fit for him.
I think teams will want Craig for this price. I am not sure anyone really wants Carter given his play, but I think they will accept him in a larger trade.
He was really solid in the beginning of the season, so I don't understand the fall off. By the end of the year it wasn't just his shooting, but his defense and decision making were poor as well.
If Craig knows he is wanted at that price, he'll opt out
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget Craig has a player option for next year. Dude's on the minimum. It's not like he couldn't get that anywhere else.
He came in talking about wanting to help this team get more serious about basketball and looked like he was checked out by the end of the season. Can't really blame him. My guess is he opts out about as quickly as he can.
We are so screwed…
Evergreen comment
coaching staff updates. Looks like they're promoting from within. Can't argue with success.
https://substack.com/profile/3012-your-friendly-bullsblogger/note/c-54656905
I'm glad Chris Fleming is gone, he was hired under Boylen not as some random specialist but his lead assistant and outlived him for reasons I can't fathom. This is how we wound up with Gar, btw, long after the guy he came in with was fired.
Of course it probably means a huge promotion for Billy Donovan IV, Esq or whatever.
stuck around probably because he was well paid. And AK worked with him in Denver
he was a head coaching candidate which is why he probably came on board under Boylen. But working for the Bulls damages your reputation, he interviewed for Knicks job in 2020 but not rumored anywhere since, and Donovan is apparently tenured so this job isn't opening
Coby finishes second behind Maxey for MIP:
Maxey: 319 total points
51 1st place votes
18 2nd place votes
10 3rd place votes
Coby: 305 total points
32 first place votes
43 second place votes
16 3rd place votes
Weirdly, there were people who didn't rank Maxey at all but voted for Coby. Which is in line with the idea that these awards are voted on by idiots.
KC was listing positives with this team and saying "they have finalists for several major awards!", when MiP and Clutch are actually the most minor awards
yeah I mean clutch is a brand new award lol. It's fun but definitely feels like one of those random consolation prize categories and not a serious award.
And MIP is meh. Who cares lol.
Godammit, I subscribed here because I hate KC! Please don't remind me of his laborious stupidity.
Sorry I really should know better. I'll try to stick to any sourced rumors, though the Bulls have shut out local 'media' to only morsels like assistant coaching promotions
Are the Magic a LaVine fit?
Excellent defense, playmaking forwards, payroll room, no shooting, need for guards who can score.
A dream scenario - if this was a different organization - would be rolling the dice on someone like Isaac. But it’s the Bulls. Out of respect for his game and his future in the league, I don’t want our medical staff anywhere near him
Jonathan Isaac is everything this team needs. Great size, versatile defender, excellent paint protector. Seems to be improving his three point shot, even though it's only about two attempts per game. He would cover for so many of Vooch's defensive flaws.
And that's exactly why he will never be a Bull. Also, as you said, dude has a significant injury history. Knowing our medical staff, he'd likely be paralyzed within two years.
Isn't he his own medical staff?
Guess I don't follow him close enough to know what that means.
I'm referring to his antivax position.
jfc who cares
Agreed. That is what the Bull's team was missing right from training camp. A tall athletic power forward who can run the court, rebound, defend, block shots, etc. A player such as Jaden McDaniels or Jonathan Isaac. Bulls were too small last season.
The easiest fix would have been to not re-sign Vooch and instead sign a good defensive center. Both Naz Reid and Isaiah Hartenstein were available last summer and either could have been signed for fairly cheap. But no, AK had to double-down on Vooch.
Agreed. Naz Reid would have been much better.
Honestly, I think I'd take Hartenstein over Reid after the season he's had in New York this year. With that being said, I did want Naz Reid more last summer and I'd have happily taken either of those guys.
I was thinking the same. I think Orlando has hit its peak without a major offensive addition. Mid-seed first-round out. Lavine could really help them.
there's no rush for them: Suggs, Wagner, Paolo are all under 23
I get the need but would think they'd be a team taking a swing at a better+younger player (Trae?) than just getting any high-priced scorer
did we honestly expect AK to say " we're going to trade Lavine / Vooch etc ???? My fear is that he'll say that there were no good deals available and F###### wait again !
There should be no player on the bulls roster who feels safe . We should recoup as many assets as we can and start fresh
Unfortunately your paragraphs kind of contradict each other. We can't really trade Zach or Vooch right now for assets because their contracts are so bad. If AK can find suitors for either or both of those guys this summer that are actually willing to give us something decent in return, I hope he pulls the trigger. It's just unlikely.
The better option would be to let DeMar walk (or preferably sign-and-trade him) and then bring back Zach and Vooch as tank commanders. Zach can go back to averaging 26 a night on pretty efficient shooting and Vooch can put up 18 and 11 while the team is terrible. And then at the deadline, hopefully someone will be desperate enough and see their "good" stat lines and take a swing on them.
AK has backed himself into a corner. He may genuinely want to get rid of Zach and Vooch this summer, but he won't be willing to give them away for nothing. And unfortunately for him, most teams don't want Zach or Vooch thanks to the fact that both of them kind of aren't good and they're both way overpaid.
Agreed. Don't pay DeRozan. Let Patrick Williams be the small forward. IMO it doesn't work well having LaVine and DeRozan. They both need the ball. The reality is that the Bulls have a contract with LaVine for better or worse. When healthy, LaVine is an amazing offensive talent. Might be the Bulls best option to hope that LaVine can make a strong comeback as you are saying.
I think we have different views of LaVine. I want him to come back and be who he's always been - an empty calorie scorer - so that we can then trade him for a decent return.
I don't think if DeMar doesn't come back and LaVine does that all of a sudden LaVine is going to be a far more impactful player than he ever has been. He's a truly gifted scorer and I think he could be very impactful in the right situation but that's not in Chicago. He's a bad defender and has low basketball IQ. Him being the best player on the team will never lead to many wins.
You are correct. When LaVine went out, it was great watching the Bulls share the ball, get back on defense, get the spacing on offense right, dive for loose balls, etc. Maybe just wishful thinking on my part. Wish that LaVine could learn from what he saw while out of action. The Bulls do struggle to score without LaVine. The Bulls' other guards struggle to create their own shot.
Williams is not a small forward. I suppose at his rebounding he's also not a power forward.
Sort of in between small forward and a power forward. Williams can certainly play as a small forward. Can put the ball on the floor. Can shoot from long range and mid range and take the ball to the rim.
I disagree, his midrange game and play making is pretty below average for the position. And defensively he's too slow IMO
I'm starting to think #1 priority is a starting center
then can bench Vuc if he's not traded, and for whatever reason they're very concerned about Vuc's feelings so this would help any "pain" of a trash salary dump with him
I suppose that could be Drummond (they have early bird rights but is more or less the same as any free agent), but while a better value isn't a better player, and Donovan agrees and will always start Vuc. So that kind of eliminates that option.
What makes you think they're so focused on a center? Like why bring Vooch back last year at a huge overpay just to move on from him this year? Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right. I'm just curious why you think a center is their #1 priority.
It'd be *my* number 1 priority. Rim protection. I acknowledge their priority for multiple years now is Vuc's feelings.
Ah I gotcha. I don't know why I read that as "I'm starting to think their #1 priority is a starting center." I definitely agree that it should be. But we both know it's probably not.
this LaVine contract is so bad lol. $43M next season and (I'd have to research but think this is true) it almost eliminates several suitors as they can't add salary in a trade once near 2nd apron. And Bulls primary motivation here is to lower salary.
I think Lakers would still do this, because they're the type of team that irrationally believes in LaVine, and they can get Caruso back. That's $53M though
Here's what can work salary-wise. Bulls also get a 1st rounder, so they can lie and say LaVine was positive value after all
Russell+Rui+2-3 more depending on player options (Christian Wood, etc.)
then you also have to take back Gabe Vincent ($11M) and send them Jevon Carter ($6.5M)
That only shaves off ~$7M for this year, but you can hopefully downscale more trading Russell. Or use him and other contracts to get a better player than LaVine
Was my experience last year that the more contracts you added to LaVine, and the more you'd have to add on the other side to match... then after a couple of moves it becomes the kind of deal that probably doesn't solve any of the reasons why either side would make the deal in the first place.
Every untradable contract of a reasonably healthy player eventually does become tradable but Karnisovas, per his character, waited too long to do it. It is entirely possible to imagine the Suns having more interest in LaVine than Beal (Beal makes even more than LaVine for the same number of years and is older, Beal is a better ballhandler but he's not Chris Paul and LaVine is the same or better in everything else). That was likely the last perfect storm of a motivated buyer with any assets to speak of and useful contracts to trade for awhile.
The Lakers will have something, I guess. I just really wonder why, if they were motivated, they wouldn't have already done it when they could claim to have limited draft assets. They'll have much more this summer, and I suspect they're expecting something better than 3 years of LaVine if they're throwing up to 3 first round picks into the mix.
Saw rumor that Russell will decline his player option, so that makes this nearly impossible dang