I enjoyed this post, even though I disagree with some of the details.
"Now somehow this year he’s going to be motivated to subsume his stardom for Josh Giddey?"
I don't think that's an issue with Giddey any more than it was with Lonzo. Giddey will be feeding the ball to Lavine, so Lavine will get better touches than he has in years.
"the extremely few trades they do make are losing ones. "
I think the key to AKME's trades are that they shoot for fair trades. They aren't looking to wring out the tiniest advantage in every trade. That's why Presti is so much better at trades than AKME.
I think the biggest problem with AKME's trades isn't the trades themselves. It's the timing and focus. After Lonzo went down, he should have brought in a replacement before the next trade deadline at the absolute latest. They wouldn't have to be a permanent replacement since they thought Lonzo was coming back, but a genuinely good point guard to keep the team in rhythm. Instead we got Pat Bev off of waivers.
The problem with aiming for a fair trade is there's always haggling. So if AK's aiming for a fair trade every time, he ends up getting ripped off after the other GM haggles him.
Also, no GM should ever aim for a fair trade. The intention should be to win the trade every time. Even if you don't necessarily win every trade, it should still be the intention.
I don’t know. I don’t think anyone wants Zach. He’s paid like a #1, has never not been at the center of a team. When he wasn’t he got pissy and played bad. Had the cringy “Impacts Winning” phrase invented for him to help people negate his scoring. He was only a plus player when he became hyper efficient, but nobody talks about him as hyper efficient anymore, does anyone think he can be a hyper efficient scorer again?
I think he’s stuck in Chicago. If there’s truly no way he plays again, what happens then? That’s a lot of millions. The Zach narrative will only get uglier unless he plays and plays well.
Problem solved for whom? The Pelicans “want” to get rid of Ingram, they just don’t want to pay his next contract (with Zion and Murray and Murphy…) and they still wouldn’t have a good center.
And for the Bulls? I like Ingram, but he wants the same money Zach is getting, and McCollum is just an older, more expensive version of White? He’s currently better in all ways, but how does that work?
As you said, Pelicans don't want to pay Ingram and McCollum is a 32 year old vet with 64 million still owed to him. Vuc isn't great, but NO's best center currently is Daniel Theis, who played just 8 games last year and averaged 6.4 pts. For the Bulls Ingram is a a two way player (unlike Zach) and younger. McCollum is paid alot but only has two seasons left and could be flipped.
I've had pretty much the same idea and I think it comes down to whether they would be willing to have Lavine on a 3 year deal than they would have Ingram on a 4-5 year deal that's about the same price.
Ingram is probably a somewhat better player on the whole, and obviously he's younger. Neither are particularly durable, but Ingram probably has the edge there. But Zach is a better shooter and if he's healthy he's probably a legitimately good fit. Or at least as good a fit as he is anywhere.
CJ is kind of washed, and Vuc is kind of washed, but CJ plays a position they're deep at and Vuc plays a position they've got nobody at. He's bad, but he's durable and he'll fill minutes.
After this trade, the Pelicans would look like this, right?
1- Murray, Alvarado
2- Zach, Hawkins
3- Murphy/Jones
4- Zion/Jones
5- Vuc, Theis, Missi
That looks like a better lineup than the same but with CJ and Ingram if those guys are actually able to be on the court.
For the Bulls, I actually don't care one bit what we'd do with CJ and Ingram. I'd try to flip both of them, but the bottom line is it really doesn't matter because they are both more moveable than Zach or Vuc. Even if Ingram walked for nothing, that's still better than giving up a pick to get rid of Zach. Just as a matter of getting value and breathing room to make different moves, this would be better.
yea i like this trade and it's not terribly far fetched. NOLA is used to have a plodding offense only center with Valanciunas so having Vuc wouldn't be unfamilar for that squad.
Also Murray and Zach are friends from Seattle so maybe he puts in a word with the GM
Ingram is a mirage player....he can play but he's just want to do his iso midrange thing. If he concentrated more on defense and playmaking while picking his spots to do his iso thing, he would be a legit #3 on a champion. As is, he is content to get his 20 points on 16 shots a night. He is who is. I'd be fine with bringing him and letting him walk.
if the Bulls want to compete (stop laughing!) they'd do this. If they insisted that instead this is Josh Giddey's world and have to accommodate him like, well, Vucevic the previous few years, then they'd look to move CJ and Ingram immediately.
I'm speculating Lakers for Ingram (they give up a first) and Clippers for CJ (upgrade Norm Powell)
Bulls essentially get a bunch of role players on smaller contracts that Billy wouldn't be 'afraid' to bench
To be fair to Giddey, at least he's young and supposedly has a lot of upside. I'm not saying the Bulls should cater to him like they do with Vooch, but at least it would be more understandable. Catering to Vooch makes no sense, other than Vooch and AK are probably besties or something.
Two things: loved this write-up. I’m consistently surprised that the writers who follow this team aren’t far more cynical and realistic about this team. I want to attribute it to wanting to have an interesting job because otherwise, it really hampers their credibility.
Similarly, I find it interesting that the people pushing back against the Zach narrative consistently point out how much of him they’ve watched, and that’s a bragging point or at least a positive. There’s no self-awareness? (Introspection? Evaluation?) that that might actually make them biased. It’s as if you saw Zach so that one good thing that one time means he’s actually not bad at it. As if seeing Dwight Powell or Isaiah Hartenstein hit that 1 3-pointer means they could be good at it.
I’ve been wondering about the Jalen Smith overpay. I’m sure AK is pushing Klutch to find him a deal, because he’s lazy & bad at making let alone winning trades, and especially since Zach got surgery right when AK was getting close to a deal with Detroit. So Rich Paul is like ‘I’ll get you a Zach deal but only if you give me top dollar for JS.’ AK getting fleeced by GMs and agents alike.
I really don't think it was a huge overpay for Smith. Not saying he necessarily deserves $9 million a year, but it's also not that far under that number.
Part of the "overpay" is paying for potential. Smith is young and has shown steady improvement since going to Indiana so you pay him with the expectation he keeps improving.
If he can consistently shoot close to 40% from three while also getting a little better at interior defense and maybe put on an extra 15-20 pounds, his $9 million a year will look really solid.
Don't get me wrong, this could turn into a Javon Carter situation where he ends up being terrible, but even then it wouldn't be the same. Carter was brought into a "competing" team where he was expected to be an immediate contributor.
Smith is young and is being brought into a young team where they're hoping he'll grow. If he doesn't, then it was a gamble that didn't pay off. I'd at least like to take gambles when rebuilding.
Why do you use the word 'sulking' when discussing LaVine and Vucevic? Both players seem professional and well regarded by teammates and coaches. Haven't read anything negative about either player on a personal level.
I mentioned this in a past article, but my wife, who doesn't watch basketball, calls Zach "Sad Boy Zach LaVine." If someone who doesn't watch basketball thinks Zach sulks, he probably sulks.
I'd say Vooch sulks even more than Zach. Or maybe sulk isn't the right word. He just gives up and yells at people in the locker room when he feels like he isn't getting the ball enough, even though he's been terribly inefficient.
Zach and Vooch are kind of interesting though because they're not your normal locker room cancer type people. They generally don't get super angry on the court or post cryptic messages on social media or anything like that.
They more just give off bad vibes and quietly pout when things don't go their way. A good way of seeing this play out is when they play poorly and then don't take responsibility for their poor play. DeMar and Caruso were always quick to admit when they didn't play well, but Zach and Vooch never are. Teammates pick up on stuff like that.
"They more just give off bad vibes and quietly pout when things don't go their way. A good way of seeing this play out is when they play poorly and then don't take responsibility for their poor play. DeMar and Caruso were always quick to admit when they didn't play well, but Zach and Vooch never are."
I can't agree more. I think it speaks to how much effort and self-reflection they have in regards to improving their weaknesses.
Did you catch Matas's post game interview? When asked about the how he played, he immediately said he was sloppy. He thought for a second and then reiterated that fact. Later on he also criticized his shot selection.
I thought that was a perfect match for the attitude we were discussing.
I watched the game but didn't see his post-game interview. But you're absolutely right. That's what you want to see from a player. And he's saying that in his first ever game as a Bull. The expectation is for him to not be great right away and he's already criticizing himself.
Did you see this quote from AK (YFBB linked the article below)?
“And I think three years ago when we came up with our plan, our formula, that worked for a short period of time until we got into injuries. The reactions, the second year and then obviously, we waited a third year to see where we at. Now, we're kind of making these changes. You could argue with it's too late or early. But that's where we are right now.”
That is the opposite of the winners' attitude we were discussing. No one should be in the building who has the attitude AK does.
Of the other 29 teams, there are only a very small handful who could possibly want LaVine if any at all. Bulls need to be realistic and realize that at this point it's better to keep LaVine on the team for the upcoming season. LaVine is a far better offensive player than any one on their current roster. LaVine seems to be intelligent. With Donovan's coaching, LaVine will figure out how to blend with the current roster.
Last season, the Bulls were not a bad team. Bulls were an average team. Bulls had a disastrous start to the season 5-14. After that the Bulls went 34-29 (54%), made the play-in game, won their first play-in game and then went out.
Notice the same as you. After LaVine went out, the Bulls began to play much better. Think that it will be a better situation to not have both DeRozan and LaVine. Both need the ball a lot. Think that LaVine is a smart enough person to understand that he needs 'to get with the program'. Plus, the Bulls don't have much choice but to make it work with LaVine and Vucevic. From what all that can be read, there isn't a market for either player at this time.
Would think that for the time being, none of the other 29 teams in the league are willing to risk taking on LaVine and his all guaranteed $138 million dollar contract until LaVine is seen on the court again.
Why do you think it is that easy to trade players? For example, why do you think that the Bulls can trade Carter? Carter has two more seasons guaranteed at $6.5 and $6.8 million. Carter is obviously overpaid. At times Carter was not even in the Bulls' rotation. Other teams aren't stupid.
Because Carter has proven he can be a productive player on competitive teams. There are lots of guys in the league that aren't good enough to be good players on bad teams but know how to fill a specific hole on good teams where they won't be targeted.
Yes, Carter is overpaid but he's also taking up less than 5% of the cap over the next two years. Overpaying a guy making 5% of the cap is significantly different than overpaying a guy making 15% of the cap.
I never claimed it would be easy to trade them, although I do believe trading Craig (the significantly better player who is making significantly less) would be easy. Carter would definitely be more difficult, but I don't think it would be impossible.
Agree with you that Carter is a good role player on the right team. Carter played a good role with Milwaukee. Now the Bulls have a logjam at guard, White, Giddey, Carter, LaVine, Dosunmu and Duarte plus Ball's contract. At least someone has to go.
Just think that other teams can accomplish the same thing at a cost of $2 million per season (and just a 1 year contract) instead of what the Bulls are paying Carter.
I don't disagree with you. All I'm saying is a team could get desperate and be willing to pay Carter's $6 million a season, be that this summer or at the trade deadline.
Here's what I came up with as a not-totally-crazy way to get both Zach and Vooch out of town. It's centered around Zach to the Lakers and Vooch to the Warriors, which would be two separate trades.
To Lakers: LaVine, Craig
To Jazz: DLo, Rui, Vincent (+picks?)
To Warriors: Vooch
To Bulls: Collins, Wiggins, Moody
White / Ball / Carter
Giddey / Ayo / Duarte / Bitim
Wiggins / Moody / Terry
PWill / Buzelis / Philllips
Collins / Smith / (Sanogo)
Bulls biggest win is getting off of Zach AND Vooch and not sending out any 1sts, and ideally no picks at all. They open up some breathing room under the tax to make some in-season moves, and get a change of scenery upside swing in Moody and two rehab and flip projects in Wiggins and Collins. You’d probably want to non-guarantee Bitim and find a backup center with some beef.
Biggest questions marks in my view are whether the Lakers would view this as a significant upgrade, and what the Jazz would require in terms of draft capital.
Interesting article with some angles I hadn't read elsewhere, not that I agree with all of the writer's opinions either. Very dismissive of AKME and LaVine, but also intelligent and not crude and personally insulting.
Regardless, I would still hold onto Zack and Vuc if a "fair" trade cannot be negotiated, even if it meant paying a tax under the new CBA.
On Jalen Smith, most teams that aren't contenders, like the Bulls, have to overpay for free agents. And if AKME hadn't overpaid Zach, they would have lost him and gotten skewered for that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Some call the Bulls cursed. I'd say that after the Bulls solved the conflicts among Jordan, Jackson and Krause by turning the page, they received payback from around the NBA. It might have been the right thing to do on some levels, but it squandered their reputation and they are no longer a destination. You can blame the talented but power-hungry Jackson and Jordan or the astute but gauche Reinsdorf and Krause, but their six championships in eight years did not lead to an aura for the Bulls akin to that of the Celtics and Lakers. That's also what AKME is saddled with today.
The booing of the name of Jerry Krause at last year's Ring of Honor inaugural ceremony is evidence of the lasting influence of super-heroes like Jordan and Jackson on the masses, and probably on some of the league's executives, agents and players.
I liked Pat's answer when asked about his new contract:
"For sure, it’s obviously big for my family. For me, the work doesn’t stop. For me, the way I think about it, it’s more work. More things on my shoulders. Obviously being a leader to this team now and using some of my experience. But also still growing. So it’s a lot more that I have to do.”
The whole article on CHGO is pretty good. He talks about rehab, his relationship with DeMar and some other things:
Sucks that he said he couldn't even jump all summer. Pairing that with other Bulls injury timelines I'll believe 'healthy for training camp' when I see it. And this nullifies any idea that he improved his game. Though I wasn't counting on that anyway, a 3 and D big forward is valuable.
AKME spoke! It was mostly nonsense to where it's even hard to get a full post out of it.
They confirmed that they simply love Josh Giddey, and trading Caruso wasn't a teardown move.
And limply defended their prior inaction. Specifically with DeRozan had some word salad about owing him...something? I don't really know.
And on LaVine: I think he can help this group next year. He’s been professional,” Karnišovas said. “Again, he’s healthy. We expect him to be with us at the start of training camp.”
“And I think three years ago when we came up with our plan, our formula, that worked for a short period of time until we got into injuries. The reactions, the second year and then obviously, we waited a third year to see where we at. Now, we're kind of making these changes. You could argue with it's too late or early. But that's where we are right now.”
Currently listening to today's episode of the Bulls Talk Podcast and KC is being pretty adamant that AK has no intentions of "rebuilding" and that he genuinely believes he can create a winning team with these young guys.
If that's actually true, he's a bigger idiot than I thought. It also means they're going to try as hard as they can to win as many games as possible this year. It still won't be a lot because this team is legitimately bad, but if they try-hard their way out of their pick, I'm going to be very mad.
I'm starting to really like Matas. He's got a long way to go, but his attitude (no "I'm in a slump" BS... just honest "I played sloppy" & "I took some long shots when I should have driven to the rim") and his intuition on finding an open spot make me think he could develop into a really good player. It's just going to take some time.
I know expressing hope isn't allowed on BaB, but I've genuinely liked what I've seen from Matas so far in Summer League. Don't get me wrong, the kid is super raw, especially on offense. But he's also been impressive in a few ways too.
Comparing him to our recent picks (low bar, I know), has me pretty excited to see what he can become. Pat has size but seems to lack the desire and motor to become significantly better. Matas has size and the desire/motor. Terry has the motor but doesn't have a good feel for the game, so it seems like he's always running around with his head chopped off. Matas has the motor and also the feel for the game to where he can use his motor in a positive way on the court.
Phillips has athleticism and good instincts but is just a complete non-factor on offense. Matas has athleticism and good instincts, and while he isn't some offensive superstar, he has pretty good handles and knows how to get into the paint and score. He also appears to be a better defender than Phillips, if only due to his size advantage.
Again, Matas has a long way to go before he's a good NBA player, but I at least like what I'm seeing so far. I think the combination of his size, athleticism, motor, and instincts make him good enough that he should get a good amount of playing time on this bad Bulls team, assuming Billy is willing to play him.
So, these men had more information and came to the exact same conclusion as the typical BaB commenter ... and yet they did nothing? Like, he packs two full seasons of inertia into one dismissive sentence. "You could argue with it's too late or early." No you can't! You just said otherwise! Everyone not named Reinsdorf said otherwise! We would be infinitely better placed now if you had done this two seasons ago! And there was no winning in that time to justify waiting. And this is not a hindsight thing. It was immediately clear to everyone. We were joking about deep play-in runs two full seasons ago.
Remember when they were hired? They seemed to have a pretty good reputation. My only qualm with the hire was that no qualified candidate would take the job in the first place! I ... god help me ... thought that if the Bulls were attracting in-demand executives then these executives must have demanded conditions involving budgets and autonomy. Boy was I wrong.
On this topic, Billy Donovan is the PERFECT Bulls coach. By perfect I mean that if he were any worse he would be an active detriment to the team and if he were any better he would not be here in the first place.
Yep, they're cheap ownership and petty so they'll only hire first-timers. Sometimes you get Phil Jackson and Tom Thibodeau, other times you get Jim Boylen and Arturas Karnisovas
These guys suck so bad. I truly don't understand how everyone seems to have become so wiling to tolerate blatant incompetence.
There have always been lots of incompetent people out there, but now it seems acceptable, even encouraged, to proudly display it and expect no accountability whatsoever.
Yes it's weird that media there is universally 'gotta hand it to em, they made changes'. I suppose saying 'what am I doing with my life following around these idiots until they lie to my face' would be asking too much
"I think sequentially it’s very hard to predict what the market is going to be. That’s why I’m saying I don’t know what’s going to happen." He doesn't even understand the concept of a job or work. A person with a job *makes* things happen: make a sandwich, design a building, negotiate a deal. The passivity is astonishing.
Summer League Chat! https://open.substack.com/chat/posts/1a0e95ec-be68-444c-887d-d289fe3f8fd9
I don't want to see any Summer League thoughts among Zach LaVine trade ideas
I enjoyed this post, even though I disagree with some of the details.
"Now somehow this year he’s going to be motivated to subsume his stardom for Josh Giddey?"
I don't think that's an issue with Giddey any more than it was with Lonzo. Giddey will be feeding the ball to Lavine, so Lavine will get better touches than he has in years.
"the extremely few trades they do make are losing ones. "
I think the key to AKME's trades are that they shoot for fair trades. They aren't looking to wring out the tiniest advantage in every trade. That's why Presti is so much better at trades than AKME.
I think the biggest problem with AKME's trades isn't the trades themselves. It's the timing and focus. After Lonzo went down, he should have brought in a replacement before the next trade deadline at the absolute latest. They wouldn't have to be a permanent replacement since they thought Lonzo was coming back, but a genuinely good point guard to keep the team in rhythm. Instead we got Pat Bev off of waivers.
Ok all that was also wrong but the trades themselves were completely atrocious.
The problem with aiming for a fair trade is there's always haggling. So if AK's aiming for a fair trade every time, he ends up getting ripped off after the other GM haggles him.
Also, no GM should ever aim for a fair trade. The intention should be to win the trade every time. Even if you don't necessarily win every trade, it should still be the intention.
100%. That was what I meant.
This is the adult tour so we can say whatever the hell we want.
I don’t know. I don’t think anyone wants Zach. He’s paid like a #1, has never not been at the center of a team. When he wasn’t he got pissy and played bad. Had the cringy “Impacts Winning” phrase invented for him to help people negate his scoring. He was only a plus player when he became hyper efficient, but nobody talks about him as hyper efficient anymore, does anyone think he can be a hyper efficient scorer again?
I think he’s stuck in Chicago. If there’s truly no way he plays again, what happens then? That’s a lot of millions. The Zach narrative will only get uglier unless he plays and plays well.
LaVine, Vuc, and Jevon Carter for Ingram & McCollum from the Pelicans. Problem solved..
Problem solved for whom? The Pelicans “want” to get rid of Ingram, they just don’t want to pay his next contract (with Zion and Murray and Murphy…) and they still wouldn’t have a good center.
And for the Bulls? I like Ingram, but he wants the same money Zach is getting, and McCollum is just an older, more expensive version of White? He’s currently better in all ways, but how does that work?
As you said, Pelicans don't want to pay Ingram and McCollum is a 32 year old vet with 64 million still owed to him. Vuc isn't great, but NO's best center currently is Daniel Theis, who played just 8 games last year and averaged 6.4 pts. For the Bulls Ingram is a a two way player (unlike Zach) and younger. McCollum is paid alot but only has two seasons left and could be flipped.
I've had pretty much the same idea and I think it comes down to whether they would be willing to have Lavine on a 3 year deal than they would have Ingram on a 4-5 year deal that's about the same price.
Ingram is probably a somewhat better player on the whole, and obviously he's younger. Neither are particularly durable, but Ingram probably has the edge there. But Zach is a better shooter and if he's healthy he's probably a legitimately good fit. Or at least as good a fit as he is anywhere.
CJ is kind of washed, and Vuc is kind of washed, but CJ plays a position they're deep at and Vuc plays a position they've got nobody at. He's bad, but he's durable and he'll fill minutes.
After this trade, the Pelicans would look like this, right?
1- Murray, Alvarado
2- Zach, Hawkins
3- Murphy/Jones
4- Zion/Jones
5- Vuc, Theis, Missi
That looks like a better lineup than the same but with CJ and Ingram if those guys are actually able to be on the court.
For the Bulls, I actually don't care one bit what we'd do with CJ and Ingram. I'd try to flip both of them, but the bottom line is it really doesn't matter because they are both more moveable than Zach or Vuc. Even if Ingram walked for nothing, that's still better than giving up a pick to get rid of Zach. Just as a matter of getting value and breathing room to make different moves, this would be better.
yea i like this trade and it's not terribly far fetched. NOLA is used to have a plodding offense only center with Valanciunas so having Vuc wouldn't be unfamilar for that squad.
Also Murray and Zach are friends from Seattle so maybe he puts in a word with the GM
Ingram is a mirage player....he can play but he's just want to do his iso midrange thing. If he concentrated more on defense and playmaking while picking his spots to do his iso thing, he would be a legit #3 on a champion. As is, he is content to get his 20 points on 16 shots a night. He is who is. I'd be fine with bringing him and letting him walk.
He's pretty much the SF version of Zach.
if the Bulls want to compete (stop laughing!) they'd do this. If they insisted that instead this is Josh Giddey's world and have to accommodate him like, well, Vucevic the previous few years, then they'd look to move CJ and Ingram immediately.
I'm speculating Lakers for Ingram (they give up a first) and Clippers for CJ (upgrade Norm Powell)
Bulls essentially get a bunch of role players on smaller contracts that Billy wouldn't be 'afraid' to bench
To be fair to Giddey, at least he's young and supposedly has a lot of upside. I'm not saying the Bulls should cater to him like they do with Vooch, but at least it would be more understandable. Catering to Vooch makes no sense, other than Vooch and AK are probably besties or something.
Two things: loved this write-up. I’m consistently surprised that the writers who follow this team aren’t far more cynical and realistic about this team. I want to attribute it to wanting to have an interesting job because otherwise, it really hampers their credibility.
Similarly, I find it interesting that the people pushing back against the Zach narrative consistently point out how much of him they’ve watched, and that’s a bragging point or at least a positive. There’s no self-awareness? (Introspection? Evaluation?) that that might actually make them biased. It’s as if you saw Zach so that one good thing that one time means he’s actually not bad at it. As if seeing Dwight Powell or Isaiah Hartenstein hit that 1 3-pointer means they could be good at it.
I’ve been wondering about the Jalen Smith overpay. I’m sure AK is pushing Klutch to find him a deal, because he’s lazy & bad at making let alone winning trades, and especially since Zach got surgery right when AK was getting close to a deal with Detroit. So Rich Paul is like ‘I’ll get you a Zach deal but only if you give me top dollar for JS.’ AK getting fleeced by GMs and agents alike.
I really don't think it was a huge overpay for Smith. Not saying he necessarily deserves $9 million a year, but it's also not that far under that number.
Part of the "overpay" is paying for potential. Smith is young and has shown steady improvement since going to Indiana so you pay him with the expectation he keeps improving.
If he can consistently shoot close to 40% from three while also getting a little better at interior defense and maybe put on an extra 15-20 pounds, his $9 million a year will look really solid.
Don't get me wrong, this could turn into a Javon Carter situation where he ends up being terrible, but even then it wouldn't be the same. Carter was brought into a "competing" team where he was expected to be an immediate contributor.
Smith is young and is being brought into a young team where they're hoping he'll grow. If he doesn't, then it was a gamble that didn't pay off. I'd at least like to take gambles when rebuilding.
Why do you use the word 'sulking' when discussing LaVine and Vucevic? Both players seem professional and well regarded by teammates and coaches. Haven't read anything negative about either player on a personal level.
I mentioned this in a past article, but my wife, who doesn't watch basketball, calls Zach "Sad Boy Zach LaVine." If someone who doesn't watch basketball thinks Zach sulks, he probably sulks.
I'd say Vooch sulks even more than Zach. Or maybe sulk isn't the right word. He just gives up and yells at people in the locker room when he feels like he isn't getting the ball enough, even though he's been terribly inefficient.
Zach and Vooch are kind of interesting though because they're not your normal locker room cancer type people. They generally don't get super angry on the court or post cryptic messages on social media or anything like that.
They more just give off bad vibes and quietly pout when things don't go their way. A good way of seeing this play out is when they play poorly and then don't take responsibility for their poor play. DeMar and Caruso were always quick to admit when they didn't play well, but Zach and Vooch never are. Teammates pick up on stuff like that.
"They more just give off bad vibes and quietly pout when things don't go their way. A good way of seeing this play out is when they play poorly and then don't take responsibility for their poor play. DeMar and Caruso were always quick to admit when they didn't play well, but Zach and Vooch never are."
I can't agree more. I think it speaks to how much effort and self-reflection they have in regards to improving their weaknesses.
Absolutely
Did you catch Matas's post game interview? When asked about the how he played, he immediately said he was sloppy. He thought for a second and then reiterated that fact. Later on he also criticized his shot selection.
I thought that was a perfect match for the attitude we were discussing.
I watched the game but didn't see his post-game interview. But you're absolutely right. That's what you want to see from a player. And he's saying that in his first ever game as a Bull. The expectation is for him to not be great right away and he's already criticizing himself.
Did you see this quote from AK (YFBB linked the article below)?
“And I think three years ago when we came up with our plan, our formula, that worked for a short period of time until we got into injuries. The reactions, the second year and then obviously, we waited a third year to see where we at. Now, we're kind of making these changes. You could argue with it's too late or early. But that's where we are right now.”
That is the opposite of the winners' attitude we were discussing. No one should be in the building who has the attitude AK does.
Of the other 29 teams, there are only a very small handful who could possibly want LaVine if any at all. Bulls need to be realistic and realize that at this point it's better to keep LaVine on the team for the upcoming season. LaVine is a far better offensive player than any one on their current roster. LaVine seems to be intelligent. With Donovan's coaching, LaVine will figure out how to blend with the current roster.
Last season, the Bulls were not a bad team. Bulls were an average team. Bulls had a disastrous start to the season 5-14. After that the Bulls went 34-29 (54%), made the play-in game, won their first play-in game and then went out.
What happened after 5-14 🤔
Notice the same as you. After LaVine went out, the Bulls began to play much better. Think that it will be a better situation to not have both DeRozan and LaVine. Both need the ball a lot. Think that LaVine is a smart enough person to understand that he needs 'to get with the program'. Plus, the Bulls don't have much choice but to make it work with LaVine and Vucevic. From what all that can be read, there isn't a market for either player at this time.
Would think that for the time being, none of the other 29 teams in the league are willing to risk taking on LaVine and his all guaranteed $138 million dollar contract until LaVine is seen on the court again.
Why have Craig and Carter not been traded yet for two or three second round picks? Get on it, AK!
Why do you think it is that easy to trade players? For example, why do you think that the Bulls can trade Carter? Carter has two more seasons guaranteed at $6.5 and $6.8 million. Carter is obviously overpaid. At times Carter was not even in the Bulls' rotation. Other teams aren't stupid.
Because Carter has proven he can be a productive player on competitive teams. There are lots of guys in the league that aren't good enough to be good players on bad teams but know how to fill a specific hole on good teams where they won't be targeted.
Yes, Carter is overpaid but he's also taking up less than 5% of the cap over the next two years. Overpaying a guy making 5% of the cap is significantly different than overpaying a guy making 15% of the cap.
I never claimed it would be easy to trade them, although I do believe trading Craig (the significantly better player who is making significantly less) would be easy. Carter would definitely be more difficult, but I don't think it would be impossible.
Agree with you that Carter is a good role player on the right team. Carter played a good role with Milwaukee. Now the Bulls have a logjam at guard, White, Giddey, Carter, LaVine, Dosunmu and Duarte plus Ball's contract. At least someone has to go.
Just think that other teams can accomplish the same thing at a cost of $2 million per season (and just a 1 year contract) instead of what the Bulls are paying Carter.
I don't disagree with you. All I'm saying is a team could get desperate and be willing to pay Carter's $6 million a season, be that this summer or at the trade deadline.
I think it'll be extremely easy to move that kind of contract. Tons of teams have trade exceptions heading into this season.
It would've been helpful to get a couple second rounders from OKC to do these dumps, for certain
I think either will be part of a LaVine trade, or the subsequent trade moving the spare parts received in a LaVine trade
Here's what I came up with as a not-totally-crazy way to get both Zach and Vooch out of town. It's centered around Zach to the Lakers and Vooch to the Warriors, which would be two separate trades.
To Lakers: LaVine, Craig
To Jazz: DLo, Rui, Vincent (+picks?)
To Warriors: Vooch
To Bulls: Collins, Wiggins, Moody
White / Ball / Carter
Giddey / Ayo / Duarte / Bitim
Wiggins / Moody / Terry
PWill / Buzelis / Philllips
Collins / Smith / (Sanogo)
Bulls biggest win is getting off of Zach AND Vooch and not sending out any 1sts, and ideally no picks at all. They open up some breathing room under the tax to make some in-season moves, and get a change of scenery upside swing in Moody and two rehab and flip projects in Wiggins and Collins. You’d probably want to non-guarantee Bitim and find a backup center with some beef.
Biggest questions marks in my view are whether the Lakers would view this as a significant upgrade, and what the Jazz would require in terms of draft capital.
Interesting article with some angles I hadn't read elsewhere, not that I agree with all of the writer's opinions either. Very dismissive of AKME and LaVine, but also intelligent and not crude and personally insulting.
Regardless, I would still hold onto Zack and Vuc if a "fair" trade cannot be negotiated, even if it meant paying a tax under the new CBA.
On Jalen Smith, most teams that aren't contenders, like the Bulls, have to overpay for free agents. And if AKME hadn't overpaid Zach, they would have lost him and gotten skewered for that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Some call the Bulls cursed. I'd say that after the Bulls solved the conflicts among Jordan, Jackson and Krause by turning the page, they received payback from around the NBA. It might have been the right thing to do on some levels, but it squandered their reputation and they are no longer a destination. You can blame the talented but power-hungry Jackson and Jordan or the astute but gauche Reinsdorf and Krause, but their six championships in eight years did not lead to an aura for the Bulls akin to that of the Celtics and Lakers. That's also what AKME is saddled with today.
The booing of the name of Jerry Krause at last year's Ring of Honor inaugural ceremony is evidence of the lasting influence of super-heroes like Jordan and Jackson on the masses, and probably on some of the league's executives, agents and players.
Look at the bright side guys…at least we have Lebron and the Lakers preventing us from being the current laughing stock of the NBA.
Let’s be honest, nobody cares enough about the Bulls to laugh at them.
I liked Pat's answer when asked about his new contract:
"For sure, it’s obviously big for my family. For me, the work doesn’t stop. For me, the way I think about it, it’s more work. More things on my shoulders. Obviously being a leader to this team now and using some of my experience. But also still growing. So it’s a lot more that I have to do.”
The whole article on CHGO is pretty good. He talks about rehab, his relationship with DeMar and some other things:
https://allchgo.com/patrick-williams-qa-chicago-bulls/
Sounds like he’s going to try too hard (and therefore fail) to live up to the contract…
I'd rather that than not try hard enough, which kind of seems like what's happened so far in his career.
Sucks that he said he couldn't even jump all summer. Pairing that with other Bulls injury timelines I'll believe 'healthy for training camp' when I see it. And this nullifies any idea that he improved his game. Though I wasn't counting on that anyway, a 3 and D big forward is valuable.
With his inability to do anything else, I hope he spent all his free time working on his handles.
AKME spoke! It was mostly nonsense to where it's even hard to get a full post out of it.
They confirmed that they simply love Josh Giddey, and trading Caruso wasn't a teardown move.
And limply defended their prior inaction. Specifically with DeRozan had some word salad about owing him...something? I don't really know.
And on LaVine: I think he can help this group next year. He’s been professional,” Karnišovas said. “Again, he’s healthy. We expect him to be with us at the start of training camp.”
https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/bulls-news/bulls-management-talks-demar-derozan-zach-lavine-direction-of-franchise/576823/
Your move Zach!
“And I think three years ago when we came up with our plan, our formula, that worked for a short period of time until we got into injuries. The reactions, the second year and then obviously, we waited a third year to see where we at. Now, we're kind of making these changes. You could argue with it's too late or early. But that's where we are right now.”
That right there is why AK should be fired.
I think they still really believe in the Lonzo 50-game 'era' or are at least thinking we're all idiots and desperately spinning it as more than it was
so they're looking to recreate it!
Lonzo -> Giddey
Zach -> Coby
DeMar -> ...Pat? ask again later (nevermind DDR was the biggest reason for success)
Caruso -> Ayo
Vuc -> Vuc
Currently listening to today's episode of the Bulls Talk Podcast and KC is being pretty adamant that AK has no intentions of "rebuilding" and that he genuinely believes he can create a winning team with these young guys.
If that's actually true, he's a bigger idiot than I thought. It also means they're going to try as hard as they can to win as many games as possible this year. It still won't be a lot because this team is legitimately bad, but if they try-hard their way out of their pick, I'm going to be very mad.
So they start with a team that wasn’t very good. Then replace all the players with worse versions. And somehow this will be… competitive?
I feel like every time AK speaks he is trying to make everyone dumber.
But he replaced them with a bunch of guys with upside!! And he hired a shooting coach so they're all going to turn into All-Stars over night!
"DeMar -> ...Pat?"
DeMar -> Matas (eventually)
I'm starting to really like Matas. He's got a long way to go, but his attitude (no "I'm in a slump" BS... just honest "I played sloppy" & "I took some long shots when I should have driven to the rim") and his intuition on finding an open spot make me think he could develop into a really good player. It's just going to take some time.
I know expressing hope isn't allowed on BaB, but I've genuinely liked what I've seen from Matas so far in Summer League. Don't get me wrong, the kid is super raw, especially on offense. But he's also been impressive in a few ways too.
Comparing him to our recent picks (low bar, I know), has me pretty excited to see what he can become. Pat has size but seems to lack the desire and motor to become significantly better. Matas has size and the desire/motor. Terry has the motor but doesn't have a good feel for the game, so it seems like he's always running around with his head chopped off. Matas has the motor and also the feel for the game to where he can use his motor in a positive way on the court.
Phillips has athleticism and good instincts but is just a complete non-factor on offense. Matas has athleticism and good instincts, and while he isn't some offensive superstar, he has pretty good handles and knows how to get into the paint and score. He also appears to be a better defender than Phillips, if only due to his size advantage.
Again, Matas has a long way to go before he's a good NBA player, but I at least like what I'm seeing so far. I think the combination of his size, athleticism, motor, and instincts make him good enough that he should get a good amount of playing time on this bad Bulls team, assuming Billy is willing to play him.
he might be at least fun to watch! better that he perform well in summer league than do whatever... bronny james is doing lol.
I'm honestly starting to feel bad for the kid. If things don't get better, he's probably going to end up blaming his dad for ruining his life.
wait just had an epiphany:
DeMar -> Brandon Ingram
(though hopefully that'd mean no Vuc, just sign some minimum guy with 'passing instincts')
So, these men had more information and came to the exact same conclusion as the typical BaB commenter ... and yet they did nothing? Like, he packs two full seasons of inertia into one dismissive sentence. "You could argue with it's too late or early." No you can't! You just said otherwise! Everyone not named Reinsdorf said otherwise! We would be infinitely better placed now if you had done this two seasons ago! And there was no winning in that time to justify waiting. And this is not a hindsight thing. It was immediately clear to everyone. We were joking about deep play-in runs two full seasons ago.
Was there some kind of contest where the Bulls announced their next front office would be hired by a raffle ticket drawing and I just missed it?
Remember when they were hired? They seemed to have a pretty good reputation. My only qualm with the hire was that no qualified candidate would take the job in the first place! I ... god help me ... thought that if the Bulls were attracting in-demand executives then these executives must have demanded conditions involving budgets and autonomy. Boy was I wrong.
On this topic, Billy Donovan is the PERFECT Bulls coach. By perfect I mean that if he were any worse he would be an active detriment to the team and if he were any better he would not be here in the first place.
Yep, they're cheap ownership and petty so they'll only hire first-timers. Sometimes you get Phil Jackson and Tom Thibodeau, other times you get Jim Boylen and Arturas Karnisovas
The only positive I got from that article was that they don't intend on giving up any draft capital to move Zach.
Them admitting they took too long to switch directions because they owed it to DeMar should have gotten them fired immediately.
If the Bulls get a surplus first round pick, then I'll start to believe something has actually changed.
They've changed out some of the players but I'm not convinced the decision making process at the top is any less shitty.
These guys suck so bad. I truly don't understand how everyone seems to have become so wiling to tolerate blatant incompetence.
There have always been lots of incompetent people out there, but now it seems acceptable, even encouraged, to proudly display it and expect no accountability whatsoever.
Yes it's weird that media there is universally 'gotta hand it to em, they made changes'. I suppose saying 'what am I doing with my life following around these idiots until they lie to my face' would be asking too much
"I think sequentially it’s very hard to predict what the market is going to be. That’s why I’m saying I don’t know what’s going to happen." He doesn't even understand the concept of a job or work. A person with a job *makes* things happen: make a sandwich, design a building, negotiate a deal. The passivity is astonishing.
both he and Eversley pretty much confirmed that they would've liked DeMar back but they fucked it up due to this 'sequence'
So they don't understand the concept of aging either. Terrific.