Open Game Thread #75: Bulls at Cleveland Cavaliers
[Thanks to bullshooter for tonight's game preview, even though he's a pain in my ass in the comments section :) -Matt]
Top 10 Reasons to watch tonight's game:
- The youngsters. Noah, Sefolosha, and Blogabull favorite son Tyrus Thomas have seen their minutes go up as the Bulls have fallen farther out of the playoff race. The future is upon us.
- Ben Wallace. It always feels good to get the better end of a deal. As long as Larry Hughes is sitting on the bench, it's not even close.
- Be a Witness. Hey, LeBron is pretty good even if none of his teammates are...
- The end of an era. Small ball as interpreted and implemented by Skiles/Boylan is coming to an end. You may never get to see BG, Duhon and Hinrich on the court at the same time ever again (at least in the same uniform).
- An old school central division matchup. How many times do you think they will show Jordan over Ehlo? Can you ever get enough?
- EJ, Kenny and Charles. Maybe Chuckles will come up with something new about the Bulls other than "They're too small." He'll most likely say something mildy controversial and definitely politically incorrect.
- The game's on TNT. For those of you who are Bulls diehards and don't pirate game feeds, this is your one game per fortnight, and it's on at 6pm CDST [have no fear, it's at 7. -ed.], so you can catch the game and still do something else tonight. And how many times can you really watch Law & Order?
- The NBA: Where Mascot Mayhem happens. That guy should have walked up behind Posey and ...
- Did I mention the youngsters? You might even get a little Aaron Gray, if you can get just a little Aaron Gray...
- Who am I kidding, there haven't been 10 reasons to watch this team since late January. But if you are true Bulls fan like me, you'll start missing them as soon as the playoffs start. So even if they are playing for ping pong balls, sit back, have a beer and enjoy it while it's on...
Blogging with the enemy:
Cavalier Attitude
Brian Windhorst
FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
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Ugh, 6PM?
No. NBA.com says 8PM EST, 7PM CST.
http://www.nba.com/games/20080403/scoreboard.html
TNT confirms.
http://www.tnt.tv/sports/
I was worried about doing 30 minutes of work from the bar(thanks WiFi), but 90 minutes would have been pushing it.
yeah, I'll update that
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
My only reason for watching is to observe
Am I paranoid by thinking Boylan will be on the sidelines chomping at the bit to find any excuse to send TT to the back of the bench for the slightest of miscues? (i.e. 2 fouls, take an innoportune jump shot, fail to cover the perimeter, laughing at one of Duhon's jokes about the coaches)
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 3, 2008 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry I am in EST
I want us
Ben Wallace
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 3, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm looking forward
I'll never understand
And then there's Larry, who doesn't try to pass...
Which makes it doubly bad
It's kind of funny that Kirk was hitting 90%+
I daresay you aren't the only one,
I'm noticing good things:
Ben Wallace has 4 points! Zomg. He's on FIRE. Too bad they're losing by 7.
Are kidding me?
I'm so ready for the Noc era to be over
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 7:46 PM CDT reply actions
Nightmare stats night so far
ha!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm hoping
even a blind squirrel
4/5ths of the way there
bail out plays
boylan shoulda sub hughes in for kirk not gordon
and then gone with nocioni for deng.
Hughes looks great, don't he?
now I know they're tanking
who's the short Millhouse looking guy
TNT Announcers:
'You know, the Bulls were spacing the ball well and doing ball movement and all that, but from what we've heard, Boylan didn't want that - he wanted the team to go inside first, go inside and then kick out for a jump shot every possession.'
Well, that worked.
I'm ROTFL.
Another painful half of basketball
- I'm not sure how you can justify playing Gray. A minute.
- If Hinrich is a point guard, he's among the NBA's worst. On multiple occasions Noah rolled to the basket and was open for a dunk, and recieved no pass. Goodbye, captain.
- Boylan's matchups are striving for new levels of absurdity. Hinrich guarding Szerbiak. Tyrus at the 5. Nocioni at the 4. Duhon on the court.
- Noah, Tyrus and Sefolosha continue to show promise.
- Sefolosha showed promise for 6 minutes. No shots, but he defended and passed well.
Go Bulls?
by Freethefro on Apr 3, 2008 8:28 PM CDT reply actions
could you give me a time stamp
On the two pick and rolls
by Freethefro on Apr 3, 2008 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions
It was earlier in the game
by Freethefro on Apr 3, 2008 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Um
by nobullishbasketball on Apr 3, 2008 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions
"Um"
by Freethefro on Apr 3, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
At this point
I can hardly stand to look at how ugly he is, and the lazy way he plays and shoots....absolutely pathetic.
And I will be so glad when this horrible season is officially over.
And with the rep that Chicago has built around the league now, it's hard to imagine anything good happening in the near future with this team - short of a complete makeover.
Geez.
now now
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
not in the least
That's a sharp-dressed man.
Now the shot selection, that be ugly.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
His brothers funeral picture, real class Matt
You a little about hoops, for less about life.
You wouldn't give credit for a good game if you had to, but to post this is the worst I have ever seen by someone running a site.
by Homegrown on Apr 3, 2008 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions
haha
Pull you off my site? Um...go yank yourself, man, nobody's stopping you.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions
dumbass
Was that post in English?
well that's kinda what I was referring to...
They have seem to have become prevelant in the NBA, and the more I see of 'em, the more I can't stand 'em.
trib did an article about the tats
And listening to Chuck-steak Barkley on TNT
It seems the fatter he gets, the more stupid he becomes.
The idiot never even won a ring...how do they justify forcing his ignorant shit on TNT viewers?
Good grief....
It's true ...
no kidding
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I actually have a lot of fun
And it just magnifies everything bad....of which there is a great deal of this year.
As pissed off as I am to see Ben Wallace
And I know we've all asked this
Thabo plays better ball....period.
Sorry guys....I'll try to stop venting. :-)
did LBJ
HAHA
Deng was like, "what happened"?
Cheap site, pull me off Matt
[new] His brothers funeral picture, real class Matt
Justin Hughes died of a heart transplant 10 years after at age 20. Nice of you to take a picture of a Larry Hughes, your Bulls player at his brothers funeral and take a dig at his clothes? How cheap of shot can you take? Little do you know that Larry actually while his mother worked two jobs actually took care of his brother medically while in grade and high school. But you, anything for your little website, no class (something you might learn from Hughes, whether he is 0-10 or making a 180K a game. Pull me off your site, don't wan't anything to do with it. You crossed the line in sportsmanship.
You a little about hoops, for less about life.
You wouldn't give credit for a good game if you had to, but to post this is the worst I have ever seen by someone running a site.
by Homegrown on Apr 3, 2008 9:01 PM CDT reply actions
someone call a whambulance
by Orlando Woolridge on Apr 3, 2008 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed. The dirty dealer meant no harm...
missing a golden opportunity...
by fundamentallysound on Apr 3, 2008 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions
and the more I thought about it
Not much of a compliment, though...who is there? Hughes, Gordon, Thabo....
um, I'd better stop and leave it to the BaB Ladeez.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm just a guy
And she thinks BG's kinda cute...
FWIW.
lol
i kind of think tyrus, but he's real young looking (not that i'm that old).
Hm. In the spirit of sharing too much...
haha it's all good
gordons not bad... and thabo. i think tyrus is the cutest bull... however i'd also say hughes. except in that picture they have on his profile on nba.com cause his eyes are kinda buggy.
answered you above
Good luck pulling yourself.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure
Easy now
This did not happen. Relax. The photo is just something that came up probably in a google image search. There was no foul intention.
Stick around. Keep talking.
did Fratello
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:05 PM CDT reply actions
thabo!
by fundamentallysound on Apr 3, 2008 9:06 PM CDT reply actions
Thabo comes back in
Hmmm.....
funny how that works isn't it?
God, I can't wait until we hire a real coach.
by fundamentallysound on Apr 3, 2008 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I can't wait until we hire a real coach
But remember it was PAX who put him there, so that doesn't mean he's gonna fire him.
And if he DOES, it doesn't mean we'll get a REAL coach in place of Boylan...
We can only hope.
thabo is playing really well
by fundamentallysound on Apr 3, 2008 9:08 PM CDT reply actions
blatantly obvious
gordon
sefolosha
deng
thomas
noah
if this group of 5 is supported by
duhon (non-shooter)
hughes or nocioni (scorer/defender)
gray (Low Post/Big)
with a good coach ... these bulls could be a very, very solid team.
It's now or never
Hughes did have a good third quarter
Bulls seem to be on the losing end of that
wow
by fundamentallysound on Apr 3, 2008 9:16 PM CDT reply actions
if he had been
I hate Hughes
Twice in a row
DAMMIT!!!
92-95
I stop watching, and apparently we're winning now?
Guess I have to be resigned to LeBron's 4th-quarter heroics so that we can pull out a win.
Bulls are playing well...
right now
hughes calls Noah out to set a screen
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Did Noah roll?
If so then Larry hughes should be traded for not hitting the open man....
the old hand-on-head
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:30 PM CDT reply actions
securing defensive rebounds
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Cleveland's defense is attrocious
That is one of the....
by lexdiamonds0730 on Apr 3, 2008 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Wallace
Missed at the RIM!!
Seeing BW get rim whipped
rebounds
HEY!
need a fucking point guard out there
Pull of Deng and put TT
why would Boylan mess with
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions
not to mention
I just realized that Deng...
by lexdiamonds0730 on Apr 3, 2008 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh....OOOOPS!!
poor BG
Bullshooter
by Freethefro on Apr 3, 2008 9:42 PM CDT reply actions
ok
That is the problem
by Freethefro on Apr 3, 2008 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Question
I am not trying to be rude or anything, i dont know if you are on that same bandwagon that says hinrich sucks at all positions of the game. Though i would give you the fact that hinrich COULD miss a good pass (because he didnt see it) and isnt an all-star level pg, he is still a great guard and i think he runs plays the way coaches want them to be run.
In that light, if the next coach wants plays that have noah finishing on rolls, i would imagine hinrich would find ways to get the ball to noah on a roll. I was just wondering if you thought that it was possible, or if you were set that hinrich would never be able to play point ever...much like khandor and a few others...
I didn't think you were being rude
I don't think Kirk has elite vision ala Kidd, CP3 and DWilliams, but he's certainly not wearing blinders out there. Nobody on this team is playing to their ability. Hopefully we'll see that next year - assuming a new coach and the use of, say, videotape!
by Freethefro on Apr 4, 2008 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions
yea. u still gotta realize
one other thing
Thabo has not reached
He's turned over the ball more than everyone significant except for Noah and Gray. If you count Gray as significant.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't see how you can say that about Aaron
not that I don't love ripping on Boylan
Didn't he say something like "Aaron could be someone you see...being a productive big man" or something like that.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
well looking back
I don't remember if I read another version of the quote or heard the audio, but I remember that 'see' having more attached to it.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
And BG throws up a brick
pffffffttt....
for defense
good point
But it's Boylan-ball.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions
that was a better 'play' than most
Better than Gordon standing for twelve seconds and then trying to beat a double-team.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:44 PM CDT reply actions
If we want to win
wow...
yup
And then smart play by Gordon just holding onto it knowing he's the best FT shooter.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly
Wow, the Cavs really suck
I hate cleveland fans
All they no how to do is boo opposing players.
that block by Noah
by fundamentallysound on Apr 3, 2008 9:48 PM CDT reply actions
LOL
yeah
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
you mean Chuck-steak Broccoli
yesssss .... noah
Now if the bulls can just find a way
Nice finish there
by Freethefro on Apr 3, 2008 9:51 PM CDT reply actions
What happened with the dunk Wallace
He was wide open
Sigh.
by Freethefro on Apr 3, 2008 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions
he had no lift
oh that was priceless
by Conor on Apr 4, 2008 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
now that was a game
6 assists in a short time
Hot damn.
Hot damn - me too!
the coach
If Larry Hughes could play the Cavs
by danger mouse on Apr 3, 2008 9:54 PM CDT reply actions
no hinrich, please
gordon
sefolosha
deng
thomas
noah
-------------
duhon (defender/rebounder/non-shooter)
hughes
nocioni
gray (low post Big)
there's no reason for the bulls to miss the playoffs for the next 10 years
... as long as they get rid of kirk hinrich
and boylan.
I'm not sure I understand your theory
haha
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 3, 2008 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Gordon played a really good game!
I guess it works sometimes?
Those free throws were clutch though.
I loved the block too.
If only we'd won by 1, just so the missed dunk could be the highlight of the game ... and the margin between winning and losing.
The Corpse, blocked and his annoying inbound def.
His emergence
Tyrus had a so so game
Either Thabo has been taught very well
Pippen's NBA offense took some time, but his defense was ready from day one. He capitalized on this strength by allowing it to boost his confidence. This eventually rubbed off on his offensive game elevating him into the elite player category in the NBA.
I'd really like to have Pippen around the Bulls organization. He's too intelligent as a basketball mind to let him wander in the world of media.
this season has been awful, but
maybe bringing in pip to help with thabo and deng wouldnt be such a bad idea.
by Conor on Apr 4, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Players Pippen could really help
Pippen knows defense. He's top ten best ball and help defender of all time.
Well
If not, you know, a decent coach who isn't afraid of game film could put together some Pip clips and . . . gee, that might work too.
"not totally crazy to surmise..."
I don't remember any great Pippen teaching stories when he was brought in to be the old sage a couple years ago.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
The Saying
Those who cant, Teach...
if you want to really put in perspective, think back to Jordan was he was sort of coaching the wizards.....or when he saw "talent" in kwame brown...
Pippen was a great defender beceause he was long, athletic, and competetive, the things that just cant be taught.
No its not
And I know you weren't a Bulls fan when the team was good, but Pippen was consistently given props throughout his career as being an exceptionally smart player. Not just an exceptionally instinctive player.
KINDA
Maybe Thabo studies better using film or on his own. Maybe he wouldn't do well being "instructed" by Pip. Who knows? Then again he could turn out to be an uber-sponge and just soak it all in and be all NBA 1st defensive team next year. Nobody knows.
But the "because they have similar bodies" or "they use their arms the same" arguments both lack
Seems to me
fun game
thabo was great on defense.
and i don't hate hughes - i know i'm in the minority there. as long as he's used correctly... he can be useful in a limited way. if he's going the way he was playing tonight - play him. if he's going 0-6 like against the celtics, bench him. that's okay. but i'll admit it was fun watching him torch the cavs. i hate them.
go bulls!!
Yeah, um, Hughes still needs
No no
Did Boyan get ejected in 1st half?
I really dislike players that elevate their game
I'm glad Hughes finished strong. He really needed to. He was a -11 in the first half even though he was 3-6 from the field. His four first half turnovers were killers. 8 of 10 second half field goals carried him all the way back to a +2 for the game.
LEBRON
it's like.. thanks.
well on the front page it says "Former Cavalier Hughes Nears Triple Stack as Bulls Rally in Cleveland" but when you click on it the title is above.
like seriously.
oh and
it has nothing to do with the excellent defense that thabo played on him, or anything.
I'm cool with this
He'd be a decent replacement
I think I was up for the Thabo/Duhon for Bell trade earlier in the season, which wouldn't have been a catastrophe or anything, but not a great deal either.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
That wasn't part of my master fleecing plan
Heh. I thought my offer was good. ;)
Thabo shows me too much promise to just deal him for a veteran like Bell. I'm curious as to how the relationship between Noah and Thabo develops in this Summer. They talk to each other in French off the court, but they could use it on the court as well although I could see how this would be an issue with other teammates. I wonder if Noc knows French too.
by NBA Observer on Apr 4, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
maybe Noc knows Canadian
Thabo has a real good chance to be the next Ime Udoka :-p
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Who do you want in return?
How about Anthony Parker? They'd probably try to trade us Bargnani and change for Noc.
by NBA Observer on Apr 4, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
are u
If so ... then that's downright comical.
yeah, I agree
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Just about every club in the NBA wanted Noc
The Celtics and Raptors were both scouting Noc at the Olympics.
Noc is better than Bargani, but he's not better to the tune of an additional 4 million per.
by NBA Observer on Apr 4, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
what's your point?
You may turn out right that Bargnani will never be as good as Nocioni (and people think the Bulls busted out with Thomas, jeez), but he'll be 23 next year and is 7 feet tall, so rightfully or not he has way more value. That and the market imperfection that 'justifying a #1 pick' can bring.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
I didn't make this argument
I just said Nocioni is better. He is. But this is the present. I'm not going to argue that Nocioni will be better than Bargnani over the length of their respective careers.
The two of us have squabbled over Nocioni more than any other player. We see him through different lenses. I'm nowhere close to the "dump Nocioni's contract" territory, but I am not opposed to trading him.
by NBA Observer on Apr 4, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
The point of argument
I think Noc would be OK as a Raptor, because they're desperate for any upgrade at SF, and they clearly like 3-point shooters. Unfortunately they also need a wing stopper (that's bigger/better than Parker), which Noc ain't.
Trade them a tandem-SF-special package of Noc/Thabo for...I dunno. Calderon would be nice but not likely, and I can't see acquiring TJ Ford unless Hinrich/Gordon/Hughes were on their way somewhere else...not to mention that getting TJ Ford means the need for a bigger 2-guard is even more of a need than if they just kept Hinrich.
If one was to think on a smaller scale, Kapono has a more cap-friendly deal than Noc, and he'd be like Nocioni except coaches wouldn't drool over the chance to play him over someone better, especially at the 4. I'm not sure who has to throw in what in that instance, because Noc is technically better.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
no way jose
No way.
I like how you still respond to bullshooter.
ahh tygger
Bullshooter, may I attempt a translation here?
But I understand. Even some, well, at least one pre-eminent world leader suffers from a similar affliction.
Oh self-absorbed you two are.
I'm getting pretty sick of it
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I hope so.
I wouldn't be asking for executions
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Matt, Tyger, and everyone
Matt, you have a great site, and even though I'm not as hardcore knowledgeable about basketball as many others here, I still would like to be considered a net positive.
Again, my apologies to all.
nice game
Also, towards the end of the game Fratello made some comment like "the Bulls didn't play last night and Cleveland did, so maybe fatigue is setting in..." OK, maybe a little truth to that. But I find it funny that nobody mentioned "fatigue" or Lebron's "ailing" back when he scored 32 thru 3 quarters.
I mean I know the team sucks and isn't going to the post-season, but come on, can't they have a legitimate win?
Beating a one man show like Cleveland
makes sense
When the Cavs were beating their brains in by 17 they were already in the "Bahamas". But when the team played good and came back to win, it's oh the Cavs are "ailing". Just seems like a back-handed comment to me.
It is a back handed comment
I'm really kind of surprised by the reaction
he should've been in there at the end
this is different than when he gets 7 minutes and never comes back, a time period in which only you and Jim Boylan have the capability of knowing that he just 'didn't have it' that night.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
also
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions
in that scenario
somehow I don't think it's working
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
that's the spirit!
I missed the 2nd half
I wasn't too pleased with Tyrus' first half performance. He did some good things and about an equal number of bad things. One really bad thing was a 2nd quarter play where Hughes drove and lobbed it to Tyrus. I don't think Tyrus was expecting the pass(not playing enough together) but rather was expecting Hughes to shoot and Tyrus would be there for any put back slam.
It was a play that Kirk, Thabo, and Duhon lob to Tyrus all the time, but Hughes and Thomas just don't have that feel for eachother yet. Anyway, after the mistimed lob, Tyrus just sat there looking around. I thought maybe he got hit in the face and thought he'd get a call, but he literally just stopped and the Cavs were fast breaking the other way. I think BG just fouled West or Lebron to make them earn the 2 at the line.
Tyrus also came over for some help D when Big Z made a move to get past Noah or Gray(I forget who was in at the time). Tyrus jumped before Big Z was even trying to shoot. Z just slipped a pass over to another Cav for an easy layup. Tyrus needs to keep his feet planted on help d in the paint and he needs to extend his arms and hands when he's sliding over on the help to decrease the size of the drop off passing lane for the penetrating opponent. These are plays that should be part of individual player film study.
I need to get in touch with some contacts at Columbia College to see if they have any grads working for the Bulls in a multimedia capacity. I'd love to get some off the record details or even maybe have a chat session with any of the Bulls multimedia personnel.
by NBA Observer on Apr 4, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
you don't need film study
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
hey NBAO
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
That's the summer project
Essentially, I just want an entire Bulls broadcast then cut it up for each player, specific 5 man units, good things, bad things, etc.
Nuggets fans still don't get it. JR Smith doesn't need to be scouted for his offense. He can't play a lick of defense.
good luck with that copyright thing
i agree with u on that one
also
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
i guess
I don't know...I guess I just see it different. It wasn't like the Cavs were tanking last night and just didn't care. They were really trying to win.
gameflow contradicts
It wasn't just on Wallace. When Cleveland pulled Big Z and then Big Ben the Bulls went on their run.
I only watched the first half so I missed this sequence. I would like to see gameflow that includes fast break and transition buckets incorporated. That would help show us if a particular 5 man unit is just getting out hustled on both ends.
I disagree...
Just my opinion.
by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 4, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
i taking a wild guess
i really need to catalog these things
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
he's around
In fact, that site is more the correct speed for some of the BaB Little Achievers.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 4, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I would disagree with BullishPNW
look
Gordon is a good scorer who can play PG, and at his size is best suited for this position in the NBA.
Duhon is a mediocre basketball player who can play PG and, as a non-shooter who can defend & rebound his position, seems to be the kind of inexpensive player that's well-suited for a back-up role long term in the NBA.
Therefore what makes the most sense for the Bulls, long term, is to trade Hinrich for another player that would be more useful for Chicago and use Gordon (Starter), Duhon (Back-up) and Sefolosha (Reserve) as the PG's for this team.
If the Bulls go with Wing players like Sefolosha, Deng, Nocioni and Hughes, all of whom have good size, are relatively good athletes and do a decent-excellent job defensively/rebounding ... plus, Bigs like Thomas & Noah, who are long and athletic ... there is no sound reason that Ben Gordon's weakness on defense cannot be hidden effectively.
That makes alot of sense
As a basketball fan in general though, i may be turned off by that guard set up, not to say it wont be successful, im sure it will...however i can see alot of "me shoot first" going on with ben gordon running point. But who knows how things will go...
I am fine with this reasoning of yours, it is far better then just making fun of hinrich and labeling him something like "worst guard in the league" when i really dont think its true.
I know alot of people like saying pax picked the worst players for this team, i dont think thats true however. I think all of our players (chosen in the draft) are really really good players, except they just didnt mesh well enough together.
I think hinrich is a good guard if he was next to a great guard. If all he had to do was commit to sg, i think he could be a great 3pt shooter, if all he had to do was play point i think he could be a smart balll handler. However he was jerked around positions and was paired with either duhon or gordon, in which case HE had to make up for thier shortcomings, and thus while gordon could just shoot, and duhon could play point, hinrich has to do that which they cant do (with gordon, guard big guards and run the offense, with duhon take up the bulk of the scoring load) this is also why i think he was so bad this year, no thanx to boylan screwing the lineups even more.
I like ben gordon, he is everything id want in a 2 guard, except he lacks height, which will always be a problem with him. Putting him at pg would be a role by name, but i wouldnt think he is a playmaker, he is more of a shoot first guard who can cause defenses to collapse, and what i like about him is that he is not a selfish egotistical player, he will pass if he needs to...whether he can refrain from falling down is another thing. He wants to take the big shot, but i really doubt that he will be successful as a last second shot hitter, he hit the msg one, but hes failed far too many times.
Larry Hughes is horrible, and were stuck with him. He is better then ben wallace without doubts, but his mentality is wayward, i see alot of potential with him that he will never want to tap, i see bad shots for his career, i see him and ben fighting over who should play point and who should shoot. If you are a ben gordon fan, surely you must see this too...
Thabo is a great asset. He can play alongside of ben gordon and kirk hinrich about the same, and as years go by excel in his role as a tall guard who can defend, slash, rebound, and hit the open three, or make a quick play. He is unselfish, and makes up for the shortcomings of both hinrich and gordon.
Ill say it over and over again, duhon is a great backup pg. He defends, he passes, and if we are lucky, he can hit 3s. He is always ready and coaches love him. But he should never start, or be a sixth man...just a backup.
I know i sort of went on a rant, but to summarize, i agree with your post of getting rid of hinrich for a player we need, i dont agree with hinrich bashing, or gordon bashing, only hughes bashing...i think all of our guards are good, if they are put in thier respectful places (hughes and duhon on the bench, thabo as either a starter or a sixth man, hinrich ONLY playing one position) and finally as a fan of hinrich, i would want him to stay with the bulls, although this means nothing to anyone but me.
sorry again for the long reply...ill keep them shorter if you want next time..
there have been championship teams in the nba
there are many different ways to cope with this deficiency as long as the PG in question also has solid size, which is something that BG has (as long as he is playing 1, not 2 ... cause he is under-sized as a 2).
if the Bulls are going to keep Gordon then they MUST play him as a PG ... and, at his size & with his skill set, it is better that he's works as a starter (beside a solid defender, like Sefolosha, would be ideal) instead of coming off the bench.
if chicago can peddle Hughes & Hinrich (either, separately or together) ... think of what they might get back in return ... and how this might help to fill out the rest of their team.
personally, I think Drew Gooden stinks and would also be a body to move if Paxson wants to build a championship team in chicago
Noah (starter), Thomas (starter), Sefolosha (starter), Nocioni (starter), Gordon (starter), Deng (scorer off the bench), Gray (reserve Big) & Duhon (reserve Guard) are keepers ... and Hinrich, Hughes & Gooden are movable parts to help the Bulls obtain the other 2 solid parts they need to go with those first 8 players.
(for example,
1. Would the Clippers be willing to trade Al Thornton & Josh Powell, plus extras, for some combination of Hinrich, Hughes & Gooden?
and,
2. Will Cole Aldrich (Kansas, C) be available when the Bulls get to their pick in the 2008 NBA Draft?
Or, how about Danny Green (UNC, G/F)?)
In the same sense
Take memphis, who are loaded with guards, wouldnt they be better off with a great shooter, rather then a guard who cant give them anything more then what Conley could?
Or The Wizards, why not get rid of an expensive guard (who is sort of a ball hog and can be full of himself) for a similar shooter but cheaper and less likely to be a jerk.
Hinrich has the higher value, but if you are considering trading him in a package, gordon would make packages look alot nicer....
nope
nba GM's do not consider BG as a shooter.
peja s (hornets) is a shooter.
reggie miller was a shooter.
ray allen is a shooter.
these guys are at least 6-5.
despite what some on this site might think about him, as a basketball, ben gordon is NOT a 'shooter', by nba standards, who other GM's would like to trade for.
ben gordon is a decent-sized PG who can shoot/score the ball and who should have already been given the opportunity to play and learn this position in the nba ... by getting major minutes for the team he's on. ben gordon is not (and has never been) a selfish player. he can and will share the ball ... but what he NEEDS to have happen, at this level, in order to succeed is a 'running mate' at the other guard spot who is 6-6/6-7 and a markedly better defender/rebounder than gordon is himself ... e.g. like Thabo Sefolosha. Then, when you put another decent-sized F on the other Wing, to go with Ben & Thabo ... e.g. like either Deng or Nocioni ... you've got yourself the makings of a potent & multi-dimensional 1/2/3 combination that matches-up nicely with the vast majority of elite teams in the nba ... especially if you also put Thomas & Noah beside them, supported by a Big Body like Aaron Gray.
kirk hinrich, on the other, is a decent-sized combo guard who other GM's in the nba might like to trade for, despite the fact that he doesn't shoot the ball well enough (high %) to punish opponents for sagging off of him to double-team other players (which is a critical aspect of what a good PG needs to be able to do in the modern game, with the 3pt line).
size has nothing to do with being a shooter
Agreed
Ben gordon is a shooter...to say he is not is almost...idiotic...
nope
a shooter is some who can be run off screens and can 'catch & shoot' a high % of his shots WITHOUT needing to take a dribble to find his rhthym.
a player who is ben gordon's size and needs to take dribbles before shooting his shot ... is a Point Guard who can shoot the ball.
from the old seattle supersonic teams the best examples I can think of are freddie 'downtown' brown (who was an under-sized 'shooter') and gus williams (who was a short PG who could shoot the ball, like ben gordon).
steve kerr was a mediocre PG with good size who could catch & shoot; he was not a shooter.
craig hodges was a bad PG who could catch & shoot; he was not a shooter.
vinnie (the 'microwave') johnson was an under-sized shooter; he was not a PG.
I know these distinctions are subtle and some might have difficulty understanding them but it doesn't mean that they are not also accurate.
ben gordon is a mediocre PG who can shoot the ball off the bounce ... which makes him quite unique and a more serviceable player than a one-dimensional player like either steve kerr or craig hodges.
you got it backwards
nope
how about Brian Shaw?
how about John Paxson?
Ben Gordon is Point Guard, alright, given his height and his skill set, in the NBA.
He's even the kind of PG some teams in the past have been able to win an NBA championship with ... e.g. Seattle with Gus Williams, and the LA Lakers with Gail Goodrich come to mind first ... if they have the right personnel around them and the right coach who knows what he's doing with this sort of 1st-class NBA talent.
I think we agree
And did they build the Laker's around Gail Goodrich, or Jerry West?...
uhh
Ben gordon is a shooting guard, he is not a point guard. the position of point initiates the offense, not finishes it. Ben gordon IS good at running through screens and getting a shot off, he likes shooting off the dribble to get into rythym, but he can run off of screens just as well...its what always amazed me about him, that running of the screen ability ( http://www.blogabull.com/comments/2007/10/24/19458/950/32#32 )Alot of the guys you mentioned who were shooters or what not, were they perhaps playing next to an elite guard, or Jordan or Scottie, or some other great hall of famer?
It seems to me Gordons only worth comes in his scoring, and his scoring is tremendous and because this season it was not, his worth fell. I think gordon can shoot from anywhere in the half court, he can get hot starting at the begining of the game or starting 20 minutes into the game. I think if he puts the ball down then he is at his best when putting it down so that he can drive to the rim or gain distance away from his defender to score. Aside from size, gordon has NONE of the traits needed to be a point guard.
I can agree with getting rid of kirk hinrich in exchange for a player we need, i can agree with hinrich not being a great pg, i can agree that gordons scoring in the end is alot more important then Hinrich's Defense ( a good offense will always beat a good defense), hell i can agree with gordon playing the point for a time, (and just cuz i CAN agree with these things, doesnt mean i do or will) however i can NEVER agree with your point that ben gordon is MORE suited to play point guard. If such were true, then all those draft reports that said he was an undersized 2 guard would never have called him a 2 guard. He is a shooting guard, he scores, and due to his height, the best way for him to score is to shoot the ball, hence...HE IS A SHOOTER!!!!!!!!!
Really i wish Matt would jump into this conversation, just because he is also a big fan of ben gordon, yet at the same time he probably would act more like a neutral party. or HSCS if not Matt...
I've said my piece in this thread, so
I will not succeed in changing your perception ... But it doesn't mean that I am wrong.
the problem with that thinking
I agree that BG should be the terminal point
lol
I'm a Ben guy, but damn this was off.
constantly playing
I actually think that Hinrich, Gordon, and Thabo would work well together, perhaps with serviceable point guard (not Hughes or Duhon). Thabo has improved enough that I think he should get a lot of minutes and take chunk of the time against the larger guards. Gordon can focus on shooting. Hinrich can perhaps free his game up a bit if doesn't have to go against size every night. Defensively use Hinrich/Thabo. Offensively use either Thabo/Gordon or Hinrich/Gordon. And if we had another guard to throw in there 10-15 a night we wouldn't be too bad off. Too bad we have Hughes and Duhon clogging that up. Hughes wants too much playing and won't settling on those 10-15 min and Duhon matched with Gordon is way too small while matched with Hinrich means no offensive productivity.
I realize not everyone here
"Full marks for the Bulls' going into Cleveland and coming back to whip the Cavaliers, but that's execution. That's Hughes making big shots, Ben Gordon hitting clutch free throws, Thabo Sefolosha and Joakim Noah separating LeBron from James in the fourth quarter."
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/rosenblog/2008/04/drinks-all-arou.html

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