Open Game Thread #80: Bulls vs. Orlando Magic
[ed. note: Thanks to chgobr for today's game preview. -Matt]
A loss tonight ties us with Charlotte and puts us two games behind Jersey with two games left. Tie breakers are broken by drawings so we will not be penalized by having won the series with Charlotte 3-1. The 8th pick is possible.
We have a disease. Noah discusses how it can spread. You gotta love this guy.
"It's a disease, and it spreads throughout the whole team," Noah said calmly. "It's just really, really hard right now because regardless what we do, there's no light at the end of the tunnel, especially for this season."We're not really playing with a lot of pride and respect for the jersey. It's just hard because you can't point at anybody individually. It's just our togetherness as a team is just bad. You can talk about Florida. But if you're a Bulls fan, I'm not a champion anymore. We're losers. We lose. That's all we do. That's all there is to say."
My recurring nightmare - the disease spreads to next season. We need infectious disease control.
RANDOM TOUGHTS as we enter the most important part of next season:
1. The obvious - Find the right coach. Rick Carlisle's name is popping up in the New York Post
Walsh is not bent on seeking an experienced coach, otherwise Rick Carlisle and Scott Skiles would be favorites. Carlisle is being pursued by Milwaukee. Skiles is at a terrible disadvantage because Curry and Jamal Crawford both dislike him - and the feeling is mutual. and in the Milwaukee Journal . Carlisle would win soon. He won big very quickly in Indiana and Detroit, where he once worked with Hammond. It would seem like a natural fit. But Carlisle will be in great demand. Chicago and New York may want to hire him. It's time for the senator's wallet to again compete with the big boys. Carlisle is incredibly demanding, which would be perfect for this undisciplined team. He also struggles with people skills, which was a reason why he was fired after winning 50 games for two franchises. Maybe he has learned from those experiences. Even if he has not, that's OK, because the short-term tradeoff for this organization would be worth it. The Sun-Times quote below has a different take on Carlisle, Skiles and New York. I believe the New York Post on this one. The belief in New York is that Walsh has decided to make a change. There's already talk about who will replace Thomas. Former Bulls coach Scott Skiles is thought to be the front-runner, with former Knicks guard Mark Jackson, Boston Celtics assistant Tom Thibodeau and Knicks assistant Herb Williams as possible other candidates.2. Don't overpay Deng.
3. Gordon playing for the one year qualifying offer of $6.4 is a good deal for the Bulls. We get to evaluate him for another year before deciding what to do with him.
4. Attempt to move one or both long-term contracts of Hinrich and/or Nocioni. Maybe we can get a 2009 1st round pick and a better contract.
5. Moving Hughes contract is mission impossible without taking on a worse contract. Contingency plan - attempt to coach Hughes into a defensive stopper.
6. Get lucky in the draft. With almost 400 comments in our endless draft thread I'm totally confused who we should take at the 8-9 pick. It seems to me there isn't much difference 3-12, but what do I know.
7. Is DeSagana Diop someone we should consider? I believe he will be a free agent. Can we get him for a reasonable price? He could back-up Noah. Gray becomes the third option.
Oh yes - we play the Magic 6 PM tonight. The game is on Comcast. Can you resist watching when there are only three games left?
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Don't overpay Deng... check.
You know
I would love to believe that Donnie Walsh
James Dolan has this special trick he does where he hires some of the best and most brilliant minds in basketball, then sabotages their leadership. He does this by either demanding that they give up all decision-making authority and turning them into yes-men (think Lenny Wilkens). The only input that is accepted from these hires is a flashy, short-term solution that will do little to change the culture of the franchise (think Larry Brown's acquisition of Steve Francis, or Isiah's acquisition of, well, anyone).
So what makes anyone think that Donnie Walsh is above this trend? He's already started being a yes-man, by refusing to fire Isiah, and now, implying that Isiah will at least remain part of the organization next season, and possibly may be coaching.
Walsh did make some breakthroughs
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5giIVeWSCq15i4FI6SGZ0RZeCtRiAD8VQ0HJO1
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I also don't understand...
I think
Worth it to the team?
Most players
Apparently, I'm not expressing myself clearly.
Do I think Gordon's scoring is damn valuable to the Bulls? Yes.
Would I like to see the Bulls keep him around? Depends, but probably.
Do I think the Bulls will learn something new by "evaluat[ing] him for another year before decid[ing] what to do with him"? No, because Gordon is what he is and it likely won't be the Bulls choice "what to do with him" if they only offer him the QO or what-not.
I'd write it off as poor wording by the original author, but it's a sentiment that's crept up a couple of times here. As if the Bulls will have a large say in the matter a year from now. If the Bulls only bring Gordon back for one more year, it would basically be to evaluate the OTHER players on the team to see who (at what position) can help replace the scoring of Gordon in the future while having Gordon around during that development time.
Ah, well then.
If anything, by not signing him at the beginning of the season THIS was his evaluation year. And we know how this year went down.
Diop does not suck
Of all the positions, I think center is already established with Noah and Gray.
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions
agreed, he doesn't suck
Gray doesn't belong in a real NBA rotation, unless he goes to the same mythical body-makeover camp that everyone claims Kevin Love will go. I think Eddy Curry's on the waiting list still.
I guess he can play once a week if you have someone like Gooden (who's at least strong) playing alongside Thomas and/or Noah getting the majority of the time. Bullshooter's idea of having him 'develop' into a '20 minute guy' seems really far-fetched at this point.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
I should probably love Diop
I haven't ruled out Gray's development into our future contract voids at color commentary in the television and radio seats. :)
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
supposedly, Gray's
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
I'll wait...
hughes
The money has to match...
I actually see Kirk staying
Maybe Pax will be bold and trade to move up and take Rose, or trade BG(or something else) for a guy like TJ Ford, who, despite injuries(lots of them, I know), can play.
Rose/Ford
Hinrich/Thabo
Deng/Noce
Thomas/Gooden
Noah/Gray
we cant keep kirk
by BG74EVER on Apr 13, 2008 4:52 PM CDT reply actions
Um, in case
Am I
sign and trade with BG/Deng
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions
anybody have a link to a feed
trust me...
I'm actually feeling a little sad that it's
I can already imagine us all,
But I also reserve the right to take this sentiment back by the end of this game! I think I'll go look up the season high for an opponent's shooting percentage, just in preparation.
looks like TT made it over two minutes before
Hughes can't make a basket.
i feel sorry for gordon
by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions
And this surprises you?
Has 13 points
does anyone else here hate Gray??
Was that Red saying something unflattering about
Great defense by the Bulls so far
{Smells like lottery balls}
Duhon, Aaron Gray...
by Freethefro on Apr 13, 2008 6:58 PM CDT reply actions
technically,
by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions
stacy king, red kerr, is there someone else?
kerr = old santa clause guy
am i right?
Considering how the game started out,
Is anybody else listening to KC?
KC is bush league, Bullshooter
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 13, 2008 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I never really read anything...
no Gordon
MVP
so the lakers won today against spurs. one game left, its against SAC, which they killed the last meeting.. that is 57-25 at the end of the season.
new orleans has two games left, against LAC and DAL, which theyre most likely gonna win both.. that also puts them at 57-25... the lakers would be better in their division, being 12-4, hornets division record would be 11-5... does that put LA at #1 for West?
Lake Show
no, not really
by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Toronto
I was at the game...
by AGBallinisaHabit on Apr 13, 2008 10:49 PM CDT reply actions
Yes, TT looked bad, like the rest of them with
This idiot is still trying to win the game and played Tyrus less than any starter...His (-11) sucked but no worse than 7 others. Would it kill him to let Thomas get some more live game experience at this meaningless point in the season? Was he afraid Thomas would foul out or was he back to his old tricks of punishing him for not executing the game plan to perfection?
If Gray is going to be our backup next year, why can't he earn some growing pains against a great center for more than 10 minutes? The Bulls had nothing to lose by losing and I can't wait for them to lose this pathetic coaching staff.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 13, 2008 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions
at least Hughes was benched
It's hard to believe
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions
just like I said earlier
I'll be so glad when this season is over with so this idiot Boylan can be gone.
Oh how I hate watching Duhon
Last night featured some classic head-on-a-swivel-cuz-Noc-lost-his-man defense as well.
Duhon doesn't look for a shot
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Which is why
by California Al on Apr 14, 2008 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions
It's a lot like Houston
Guards have to be able to shoot between 40 and 45 percent from the field. They must be able to hit at least 35 to 40 percent of their three point FG attempts.
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Noc
You're right about Noc, he was losing everyone, and when it wasn't an open three it was him lunging past a fake-and-drive Rashard Lewis. At least he was hitting threes to keep his overall contribution, er, competent.
I can't wait until Paxson reminds Bryan Colangelo that he scouted Noc in 2004 and therefore is desperate to trade for him!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
time for new money owner
What's more likely?
It's the old and tired ownership trend vs the new and hawtness style represented by the Cubans and Sarvers.
Honestly, even corporate America sees the cost benefits of providing health club memberships to their employees. Jerry's a tax guy and even he doesn't see it?
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
come on
As much as I think he's worthless, Aaron Gray being fat and out of shape had little to nothing to do with how bad this team was this season.
by NormVanBeer on Apr 14, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
I like that this 'Aaron Gray is a fatso' train
The bigger deal is that the talent isn't that good, so the Bulls need to have other advantages like 'coaching', and 'development'. But that's where they are, unless lady lottery smiles upon us.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
that was just one example
that was the knock on Brand
Don't you remember seeing Eddy lose all that weight? Of course since being in NY he's gained it all back (and then some) but he lost a grip of weight over that one summer.
by NormVanBeer on Apr 14, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
I feel kinda bad for Eddy
by RogersPark Kris on Apr 14, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
He couldn't take the blood test
Curry took a position for a NBPA and people in general. A DNA test would have established a compromising principle for future players.
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know if I'd go quite so far
There were a lot of issues around his unwillingness to take the test, and I don't know if we'll ever get the whole story.
My opinion is that he liked what he was hearing from Isiah more than he was hearing from Paxson and (especially) Skiles, and decided he'd rather play for Isiah in New York than Skiles in Chicago.
As I understand it
Basically, it's the same sort of difference between test that shows you may be likely, based on your genes, to get cancer and a test that shows you actually have cancer.
Some of this has faded from my memory banks, but my recollection is that two noted doctors (including the guy who told Reggie Lewis he shouldn't be playing) actually looked at his heart and cleared him to play.
Thus, the situation for Curry was this. He had two noted doctors look at him and say his heart wasn't abnormally enlarged and he was fine to play.
He had a third doctor say in effect "ok, but you could also get this DNA test to see if you're genetically predisposed to having this condition which you've been told you don't actually have".
The Bulls made their contract offer conditional upon passing the test and showing he wasn't "predisposed" to the condition, not whether he had the condition or not.
Since I'm on my soapbox, one thing I always thought was incredibly lame was that if he turned out predisposed, then he got a parting gift of, effectively, his the present value of his "qualifying offer" amount spread over the course of something like 20 years. That sounds pretty nice (and was talked up as a "compassionate" solution by guys like KC) but the reality was it was little more than what he could have had anyway since they'd already tendered him that amount.
That is, the Bulls made themselves sound compassionate by offering to spread the money they'd already agreed to pay in one year over 20 or 30 years with interest.
That, of course, made the number sound bigger, but probably reduced the real value. It's a little more irritating in the context of them paying Jay Williams significantly more than that (they basically let him collect his salary for two years) when he wrecked himself. I mean, I don't really begrudge the Bulls doing that for Williams (it was good PR on their part in that case as well), but it's pretty hard for me to justify giving more to a guy (Williams) who wrecked his career in an act of stupidity after having done nothing in one season for you than to a guy (Curry), who you're forcing to take a test that doesn't actually prove he's sick, and who (despite obvious flaws) had actually helped you win games on the court.
The whole affair left a pretty bad taste in my mouth.
Eddy's contract is uninsured
Don't forget the insurance
Also, if I recall correctly, Paxson was quoted as saying he would feel responsible if he were to offer a contract to Curry to continue playing a game that could eventually kill him. If those sentiments were true, that's all we need to know about Curry, the DNA test, and the subsequent trade to New York. Of course, I'm not sure how to rectify that with the fact that the Bulls still participated in getting Curry an longer contract to play in the NBA.
As you said, it's been a while,
Maybe my memory is getting tricked by the "compassion" you mention of the Bulls offer--and their offer really was just a lowball spread over time.
Perhaps someone has a better recollection.
for what it's worth
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
iirc
$400k/yr for 50 years
Shit, at the rate we're going we'll be lucky if $400k gets you a happy meal in 50 years.
I also wonder what happens if her actually were to die before the 50 years are up. In some annuity/pension situations death ends the obligation, so his wife, kids, or heirs in general are screwed. In others you pass on the annuity the same way you pass on most stuff.
In general, there's lots of questions about it. I certainly don't blame the Bulls for not paying a guy they didn't want to take a chance on, but there was a lot of sketchiness to the whole affair.
Mr. Richie Rich over here
The planet where I have a Masters in Economics
But seriously speaking, yeah, for all of us mortals it's a lot. But we're not talking about the every day world. In the context of the choice of making $60M over the next six years (and then follow on contracts of probably that might yield as much or more), then yeah, it's a huge drop off.
Something like $60M over the next six years, even if you spend 2/3rds immediately and only invest 1/3 of it (conservatively), would net you something like $136M (in terms of todays dollars) over the course of 50 years.
On the other hand, a stream of 400k per year for 50 years probably gets you a bit less than $10M in today's dollars. The odds are very much on the side of having money now vs. having money later.
Yeah but...
by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 14, 2008 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions
that's true
Sort of like the Jay Williams 'buyout'.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Also...
Every team in the NBA would have made Curry take that test, but only the Knicks could get away with NOT asking him to take it (because of the right to work laws at the time).
In that sense his (Eddy's) hands were tied and he had no leverage to ask the Bulls for anything. Therefore It's ludicrous to think that 400k a year is an insulting offer.
Still, I'm glad we traded him.
by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 14, 2008 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes and no
All that stuff is debatable. My problem is largely that the oversold their beneficence in a major way. Politicans are the only sorts of people who act like $20M payable in installments over 50 years is anything close to $20M today, which is the impression the Bulls gave.
Back to the bigger point of Curry, the flip side of all of this is that Curry could well have taken and passed the test and would have remained a Bulls. Wonder how we would have done with him and the triumvirate of AD, Chandler and Curry?
I like Noah and Thomas better than Curry in the abstract, but they both seem pretty far away.
If we'd had Curry and AD the Bulls could have used Chandler quite a bit more effectively, and they probably would have been better two years ago. Would they have brought in Wallace?
On the other hand, Chandler and Skiles might have killed each other and Curry might have gotten fat. We'll clearly never know.
$20 mil for doing nothing
No, it's not :)
The initial $4M grows enough via interest to give back $400k every year. That is, they weren't promising him anything at all beyond what they'd already offered him.
Fine but...
by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 15, 2008 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions
it was 50 years
"So he would have an above-average lifestyle that would put him in a position that most other people aren't in," Paxson said. "Our intention through that whole process was to show him that we did care about him and that we were concerned about his well-being."
even before taxes
in retrospect
in defense of my guy. . .
by AGBallinisaHabit on Apr 14, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
i hope he succeeds
Watch Gray out there some time.
not really, he's GAINED
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080413-chicago-bulls-shooting-per centage,1,758796.story
by NormVanBeer on Apr 14, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
typical player development from the Bulls
you forgot the clause
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
No amount of weight lifting or weight cutting
Not true
There are plenty of thin slow guys, but those particular thing slower guys will still be a little less slow if they lose more weight and get in generally better shape. Your body might put you in a given range, but what you do with it changes where you are on that path.
Curry's a good example. He was an obviously better player at 280lbs than he has been at 300lbs.
If you loose weight while still training your muscles, you're going to be in better shape. When I weighed 210+ I was a hell of a lot slower than I am at the 160 I currently weigh. And oddly, because I actually work at it, I'm physically stronger too.
If he loses the weight
he does have a guaranteed deal next season
It's cheap however, and it's not like the Bulls haven't eaten contracts before (yes it's true, that dastardly cheap chairman).
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
He does?
Noah/NewGuy/Gooden/Gray
it is rare for 2nd round picks
For instance, Duhon had only a 1 year deal with no team option, and that made him a restricted FA and as we know, meant a huge raise. So if you think the guy's actually going to be decent, signing him for 2 years at the minimum is a clever way to get some cost certaincy.
As little as I think of Gray's 'potential', he's shown at least to be worth a minimum deal as a 12th-15th man, so I don't think Paxson made a bad gamble or anything.
I wouldn't be shocked if there was some agent hanky-panky in that process as well.
fyi: JamesOn Curry has a partially-guaranteed contract, and Nichols is a FA after the season.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
More than weight
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
That's because he can only do
great post re: new ownership
anyone have any clue how long the Chairman plans on keeping the team? is there like a "Mini-Chairman" a la Hank Steinbrenner waiting in the wings to take over when he retires or dies? or will he sell before then?
by Orlando Woolridge on Apr 14, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
My Problem with Reinsdorf
I think he'd cap out and pay the tax
He paid Money $30+ mil per season twice. The organization made a 30+ mil profit last year according to Forbes estimates.
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
they're over the cap
My bad
"wasn't getting a surefire starter back"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Enough to fly to Argentina
by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions

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