'Winning isn't everything' doesn't just pertain to Larry Hughes

Tyrus tried too hard today

He was so aggressive on the floor, he couldn't get into the flow when the Bulls were actually doing great on offense.

Dickey Simpkins>Ben Wallace

by Ozzie Montana on Mar 4, 2008 11:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

can you blame him?

the guy wants to play so bad, and probably feels like he has to take over the game on both ends of the floor in order to get more playing time.

when you constantly have to look over your shoulder to see if you're going to get yanked, the tendency is to try to do everything and not let the game come to you.

by Orange Juice on Mar 5, 2008 12:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He does that all the time

when he comes off the bench, hes just too pumped up trying to prove that he should be a starter. I feel for the guy because he should be a starter.

by Takeaseat on Mar 5, 2008 8:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

right

i think i mentioned this in the game thread too - sometimes he gets excitable and picks up those fouls. usually when he's left out he calms down, but his 2nd stint was no better tonight.

he's allowed to have a bad game. it happens.

by Jaina on Mar 5, 2008 8:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

er

last night.

by Jaina on Mar 5, 2008 8:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right. It's not even about Thomas anymore.

Or Noah or whomever. It's a misguided philosophy for a franchise on developing "true" talent. IF they were competing for the top spots in the playoffs, that'd it'd be acceptable.* As someone once said: "I don't care who plays, I just want them to win." That's Boylan's philosophy (I think), and at this point, it's just sad. Kelly Dwyer said, between Meyers and Boylan, that Paxson needed to tell Boylan that he wasn't getting the job no matter how well the team did, he can take it or leave it. How many developmental minutes have been lost in this incredibly misguided attempt at winning?

This season is close to lost on two fronts: not only has it been shitty record-wise, but now none of the youngsters are getting that "valuable" experience that will "justify" their playing time next year. Kinda sad like that, huh?

*A certain anti-Thomas couple will disagree, I'm sure.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 4, 2008 11:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I like your thinking

I hadn't thought if it this way, but if I was Boylan - a career assistant that has half a season to prove himself to secure his dream job - I'd probably rely on veterans too. As much as I like Noah and Tyrus, they aren't clearly better than Joe Smith and Gooden just yet. Plus, if I'm going down, it sure as hell wouldn't be because a couple unproven 20 year olds screwed up when I needed them most.

I still don't like Boylan, but he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. If there's anybody to fault for not playing the rookies, it's Paxson, who first signed Joe Smith and second replaced Skiles with someone whose career depends on winning now.

by YaoPau on Mar 4, 2008 11:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

good point

making the playoffs is a HUGE deal to any head coach because it's something that they can point to on their resume and record.

"hey look at me, before I took over we were out of the playoffs, and after I took over we made the playoffs. I'm awesome!"

Boylan must be salivating at the fact that his team could be 5 games under .500 and still make the playoffs. And I know for sure that he dreams of upsetting Boston or Detroit in the first round and signing that 10-year NBA head coaching contract.

by Orange Juice on Mar 5, 2008 12:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I could easily have liked Boylan...

if he'd spent the appropriate amount of time attempting a turnaround and then had the integrity to look after the team's future, It would have been a true feather in his cap to have the young bigs functional by year end. To play this game like it mattered at their expense validates all of the hostily here. I really have the impression that he hates the players on this team and would start ANY newcomers. Good grief, using his logic, Durant, Connelly, Aldridge, Roy, etc ought to be riding pine until they have a mature game. His Airness should have been benched for weeks at a time for breaking up good plays to go one on three. Regardless of what their ceiling is, we need to get them there pronto. If we'd ended up the season with the worst record because it was a teaching year, that would have been encouraging. This mess has made this entire season a waste and a failure.

by California Al on Mar 5, 2008 7:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

as usual not entirely true

Noah and Thabo have started a significant amount of games and Noah at least will continue to do so. TT should be getting more clock, but I don't get the impression anybody is giving up on him. He wasn't even in that reported trade for Gasol. He may even end up getting more minutes later this week when the bulls are getting their hats handed to them. Don't overreact for one game.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

oh an Boylan is gone either way.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's two of the last three games

where he got under 10 minutes.

I don't think the organization is giving up on him either. I think there's a disconnect between Paxson and Boylan, and it's frustrating because Boylan should've been hired as a puppet.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We'll disagree on this.

And as usual, you're more likely to be wrong. Maybe I think Thabo and Noah have only gotten the minutes because there weren't better choices for Boylan due to injuries and The Trade.

It's hard to make sense just looking at the numbers, and you'll remember it how you want, but Deng got hurt the first week of the year (and came back for a short stint), precisely when Thabo started playing more. At that point, one of Gordon, Hinrich and Deng were out of the lineup on a (fairly) consistent basis. Thabo had to get steady minutes because it was either him or Griffin. To Boylan's credit, he gave it to Thabo.

Noah isn't starting because Boylan's developing guys. He's doing it because he doesn't have anyone better. Noah's been the second center on the team all year and now he's the only one.

I don't think Boylan's trying to stunt the development of these guys (which is what you seem to think I meant), just that he'd rather have the veteran over a younger player nearly every time.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I could be wrong on this.

I'll allow that. I'd just like to see a convincing argument other than "They're playing more, so it's go to be true!" logic you've already given.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

why do you always forget what the point was?

I'm not arguing that Boylan isn't a clown, just that Noah and Thabo were and are getting good minutes, whatever the circumstances. And TT will get more if he relaxes and plays better.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not likely

because Boylan's a clown.

Thabo only got minutes because everyone else was hurt. And I have little doubt that Thabs will have to 'earn' his spot back.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

fine

then the pertinent question is how long does it take him to "earn" that spot back.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Indertiminate???

I have no faith that Boylan even knows what his own criteria for that would be, let alone being able to evaluate if someone has met it. Boylan might want people to earn their spots or whatever, but other than TO's and fouls (just happens to be the two things Tyrus needs most work on), he really can't determine what's good and what's bad. I know I'm really talking Boylan down, but I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thabo was named the bulls player of the month

link so Boylan won't dare to keep him out more than a game or two. ;-)

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 4:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Then you missed my original point.

Which was what you responded to. Obviously.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nope

your underlying argument was bad, so you didn't actually have a point, which is usually the point. ;-)

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What was my underlying argument?

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 4:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

point

This season is close to lost on two fronts: not only has it been shitty record-wise, but now none of the youngsters are getting that "valuable" experience that will "justify" their playing time next year. Kinda sad like that, huh?

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 4:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, well...

...I guess I'd consider a "commitment to youth" an important part of that. Having that would "guarantee" minutes night-in and night-out. If Thabo comes back and only gets 15 mpg, that's different than 30 minutes.

Being allowed to play through a player's mistakes is probably the most important of gaining that expierience (one could argue it's the only part), something that would happen if there was an actual commitment to it.

So yeah, it does matter how they get their minutes. As usual, I'm sure you'll disagree.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

try to look at it from the perspective

of a bulls fan, and not just a TT fan. The point is to get the guys playing well and the right way, not just playing. TT played like crap last night, so he got pulled. If he was the starter and the team was counting on him for big production, he would have hurt them by getting in foul trouble. He needs to understand that and I think he does and will do a better job in the future. But you can't reward him for playing like that by leaving him out there. Same for Noah and Thabo. If they are the future, then you need to insure a good future.

That said, I would have liked to see Boylan go back to TT one more time, too. But at what point are you pulling guys just to get TT in. The other guys deserve a chance to get a rhythm, too. And the point is still to win the game if for no other reason than to get 4 more games for TT to potentially play in...

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

contrarian bot returns

The other guys don't deserve anything. The point you pull them for Tyrus was the beginning of the season, but especially now.

There is no carrot of playing time. Just give him time. He's productive already, he proved it last season and is doing so again. We'll only know if he's getting better if he plays. That may mean a bad game once in a while. Sorry, bad games = inconsistency. A scary thought on this contending bunch.

Your last sentence is a joke, right? If this veteran charge gets the Bulls into the postseason, how many minutes do you really see Tyrus getting? What if he gets 2 FOULS?????????

I honestly don't believe you believe in 'teaching lessons' still. Come on.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 8:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

also, your point fails

because there's never a reward for good play. Judging by your commentary this season he should only get minutes taken away for bad play, after a good game it's no change.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 8:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I also said

I think Boylan sucks. I think TT should play more if he plays well, too. I can't help that Boylan only hears me 50% of the time. And the last line was a little bit of sarcasm for you.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 9:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice game, Luol

Glad to see him play well tonight.

by YaoPau on Mar 4, 2008 11:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

ugh

What are we really playing for here? We're not getting out of the first round, so development should be the focus of this season. If the kids can make the playoffs, then even better. This is why Boylan has to be shown the door immediately. I don't care who coaches the team as long as it isn't him.

by Stay Chisel on Mar 4, 2008 11:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

First round

Looking at the next 4 or 5 games, I think they'll soon be "almost out" of the race

by Option27 on Mar 4, 2008 11:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, Tyrus looked terrible tonight.

Words to live by. By Matt, that is.

by Sky on Mar 4, 2008 11:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

He looked terrible, but...

He always looks terrible when he is looking over his shoulder for the next substitution. He's operating under this misguided notion that he needs to 'make something happen' or else he'll get yanked. Both he and Noah looked so good against Denver, but now neither of these guys will get consistent minutes (especially together).

I can't get excited about any of these wins when you know that they won't close out upcoming games against Cleveland, Detroit and Boston. And where will we be next year? Unless people are moved (Gooden or Noc), we'll be facing the same scenarios in the front court next year. I don't know what's more important - the selection of the next coach or Pax's offseason clearing of the decks.

BTW - Boylan is such an idiot. In his press conference, he talked about what a great leader Kirk has been since he took over as coach. Inconsistent minutes, failure to make himself available to the media after those games - is that what makes a great leader?

This whole team has reached new lows and it's just sad.

by Gene Banks on Mar 5, 2008 12:00 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

wow if you scroll up ...

you'll see I happened to use some of the same wording as you did before I got to your post. why none of the Bulls coaching staff has realized the obvious is beyond me.

by Orange Juice on Mar 5, 2008 12:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

First time I ever heard...

... that rookies having a bad game should be rewarded by staying on the floor, just in case they get better.

Sheesh.

by Sky on Mar 5, 2008 12:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus isn't a rookie

But by the lack of playing time, I can see where you're mistaken

by Option27 on Mar 5, 2008 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Rookie? Soph? same thang

He's raw. He can't control himself. He hasn't developed. Last time I said he was rightly benched after committing three fouls in six mins (and then played three more) most bloggers went berserk. Now at least I see people seeing it like it is.

by Sky on Mar 5, 2008 12:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

nuttin' but a PT-thang

why is he raw?
why can't he control himself?
why hasn't he developed?

BECAUSE HE'S NEVER GOTTEN CONSISTENT MINUTES.

have you noticed what Tyrus has done when he gets over 25 minutes a game? look at the game logs.

the "Sky" is the limit for this kid.

by Orange Juice on Mar 5, 2008 12:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

besides the already mentioned fact

that he's not a rookie, playing time isn't a 'reward' for playing poorly. It's independent of what he does on the floor. He should play just because he should. He may have a bad game once in a while, it's true. Hope you can handle the rawness.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 9:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a big Tyrus advocate,

but if he had a game this year where he deserved no PT, it was this one.

TT was a ghost out there today.

Drew Gooden played really well today, too.

So that's 2 strikes against his playing time tonight.

That being said, it was pretty clear that Gooden was gassed in the 4th quarter.

I'm not sure he ever left the floor in the second half, but I know a couple minutes into the 4th quarter he was too tired to play defense. He wasn't even getting off the floor.

Boylan would rather have a gassed Gooden standing around out there than TT playing the 4th quarter with 4 fouls.

GetYoSelfAHandful.blogspot.com

by MarketMaker on Mar 5, 2008 12:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

To clarify-

I meant I'm not sure he ever went to the bench in the 2nd half, but he had stopped jumping due to how tired he was at the onset of the 4th.

GetYoSelfAHandful.blogspot.com

by MarketMaker on Mar 5, 2008 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noah did play well

Tyrus was bad enough that I can understand not putting him back in, but there was no reason that Noah should have played so little. He dominated the boards - he had 9 rebounds in only 21 minutes. Gooden should not be playing center for more than a few minutes a game. I'd rather see Gray get more minutes than play Gooden at the 5.

by Big D on Mar 5, 2008 12:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think it's funny

That some people think it proves a point that TT is "raw" when he has games like this. Well, that just proves everyone's moaning that he doesn't get enough playing time. If he had consistent playing time and had these kinds of performances routinely, we'd all agree he shouldn't be starting, and is at best a high-energy impact guy. Too bad we don't know for sure, because he's been yanked around and treated differently than every other player this season. I don't know why people seem to take joy in TT coming up short.

Dickey Simpkins>Ben Wallace

by Ozzie Montana on Mar 5, 2008 12:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

And TT is not a 2nd round draft pick

He's the number 2 pick in the draft for all intensive purposes! You play those guys! Operating under an assumption that he should be yanked unless he plays like Lebron as rookie is ridiculous. When you invest the number pick in the draft on someone you best be letting him on the court or else what's the point. Given that Bulls have no dominant player at the 4 its even more important to develop him. Its been said before, we're really not in the playoff race, if this isnt the time to develop players then when is.

by bullsfaninla on Mar 5, 2008 12:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Deng playing 43 minutes was also insane

He's just coming back from an injury, yet Boylan felt the need to play him 43 minutes against maybe the worst team in the league? The Bulls were in control the entire second half; there was no reason to play him that much. Deng is the Bulls' biggest asset right now - they can't afford for him to get hurt again.

by Big D on Mar 5, 2008 1:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Too many minutes?

Hardly. Luol needs to get back in a rhythm. He hasn't had one all season long. Any time an opportunity comes up to get Luol clicking at the United Center is good by me. Boylan commented to KC Johnson about how Luol's defense was what created the flow for his offensive production. This is exactly right. Our core are players that feed off defense to generate effective offense.

Last night was a textbook 'Skiles' coached game. Those effective defensively played. When the lead was well in hand, you could change defense for offense. Hughes sat the whole fourth quarter despite playing very effectively to open the half.

Bottom line, Luol has to get going. This was a good game for that. Rudy Gay has been scoring at will most nights, but it's for obvious reasons. He really doesn't play defense. Luol exploited that. Good. More please.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 8:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The problem is, he's coming off a nagging injury

Playing him monster minutes against a terrible team is just asking for trouble. What good is it for Deng to get into a flow if he's out for again with another flare up of tendinitis.

by snley on Mar 5, 2008 8:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that and

after playing 44 against was he was clearly not at his best against the cavs. he probably tightened up. it's great to see him play well, but 43 min was unnecessary.

by Jaina on Mar 5, 2008 8:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As the game wore on

he get less and less lift on his shots. A number of close in attempts were on line but just fell off the front of the rim. To me this says he doesn't have his leg strength back.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 8:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

can anyone comment on the positives of this game

how about kirk going off and working the shit out of conley. Since when does a guy who has dunked once in his life get four blocks? I like the balanced attack and although its too bad, i dont know if TT is fit to stay here he is not going to get enough time. Watch him pull a chandler and go nuts when he gets time and a better PG props to hinrich aside, CP3 is a legit MVP candidate. A win is a win and they still had a big letdown, but maybe Boylan is finally figuring out a combination that will work, even if it doesnt include ty tom. but at least he isnt playing duhon anymore even with thabo out thank god.

by opkevin on Mar 5, 2008 1:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The coaches coached

Conley is on scouting reports now. Force him to his right. Make him play on his weak side. The entire right side of the floor is an area to exploit his weaknesses. This is where the steals and blocks originated.

Now, how do we get coaches to coach every game?

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 8:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Unrelated...

This is unrelated to anything important, but did anyone see Norm van Lier during the post-game show? My god, he looked like he was on the last hour of a three-day bender... or under the influence of something stronger, if you get my drift. Red-rimmed eyes, fidgeting relentlessly, spacing out and forgetting he's on camera... I know he's a strange old bird, but Christ, man! Get it together!

To be fair, I suppose if my job were to analyze this god-awful mess, I'd keep a bottle of Jamison's within reach at all times, too.

by ChrisRobin on Mar 5, 2008 2:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

He's had the flu.

25% of the kids and half the teachers are out at my daughter's school. So, cut poor Norm a little slack.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 8:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice to see

the two captains have great games. Wish they would play like that all the time.

by sue369 on Mar 5, 2008 8:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Right.

All the bitchin that any of us do (myself included obviously), it's still about Hinrich, Deng and now to a lesser extent, Gordon.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 8:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Game flow shows removing Noah was a bad idea

without ever inserting him back into the game.

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20080304&game=MEMCHI

You'll also notice how the Crittenton/Lowery lineup was too much for Ben Gordon. He can't guard either player. He couldn't even protect an area let alone play man defense. How can his feet be so slow without the basketball yet he's fairly quick with his feet while controlling the basketball. It is usually the other way around.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 8:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I was really surprised by Lowry

I knew he was a great ball handler and passer, but at 'nova he couldn't shoot worth a damn.

(Of course, this game could have been nothing more than just another in a long line of players having career games against the Bulls this year.)

They had Lawry and Crttenten both on the floor for long stretches...is Crit a dreaded Kirkian combo guard or is he a point guard--I ask this in terms of his being a potential trade target for the Bulls this summer.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 9:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see the Bulls going after

a 21 year point guard. Even if he was PURE. We won't know if Crittenton is or isn't during this season, and I don't feel like finding out.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 9:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Where do you stand

on the Bulls needing/not needing an upgrade at point guard?

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Or, how about this--

Could you rank the Bulls personnel upgrade needs? I'd be inclined to say #1: front court scoring, and #2: point guard (I'll refrain from saying "pure"--but that's what i mean, anyway).

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hinrich is not close to the problem.

I don't get the dislike of him. He's an above-average PG, end of story. Unless there's an above-above-average PG to be had, or Kirk can be used to get someone better at another position, PG shouldn't be addressed in the least.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's fair to ask

if Kirk can make Noah better in a way similar to how Paul makes Chandler better. In my opinion, this is something the elite point guards are able to do. Not only are they adept at getting their own offense when needed, but they can also set other players up to get theirs. I don't believe there is a player currently on the Bulls roster that can do that.

When you look at the really great point guards--from the grainy old black and white footage of Cousy, through Magic Johnson and Stockton, to Kidd, Nash, and now Paul, Deron Williams (and of course many others over the years)--what they all have in common is that they make the team better (or "more better") than merely their own contributions in the box score might imply.

I would further say that if you're not going to get that kind of play from your point guard, then you need some other player to be outstandingly spectacular--Bird, MJ, Kobe, LBJ. These players so rarely come along that I think it's easier to build with a damn good point guard than it is to find (or fall into, through the luck of the draft) a transcendent star.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So what you're saying is, if you don't have a star

at any of the other 4 positions, you'd be best served having a star at PG? Wow, that's profound.

by snley on Mar 5, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

a small forward who's as good at small forward

as Chris Paul is at point guard is going to have the same more better effect. Because he's more better, more likely.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Mar 5, 2008 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Everybody's jumping on my mention

of Chris Paul.

I'd be very happy with Calderon, who is not anyehere near the mvp converstion that Paul is in.

I'd be happy with Lowry, or TJ Ford, even. I think they would make a bigger imopact on making the Bulls better than a Calderon-equivalent small forward.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yes you mentioned Paul

as well as Stockton, Magic, Cousy...

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

a better sf

would make Hinrich a better looking PG.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

uh, it's not fair

because Chris Paul IS a 'transcendent star', and a far better player than Kirk.

So yes, all of the best point guards of any generation are better than Kirk. You cracked the code.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 11:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Paul is superior to Kirk

In just about every arena other than fg% outside of the paint and free throw shooting.

I don't think you really compare them because Paul is lengths ahead of Kirk in body control, balance, dribbling, and maneuvering inside the paint. It stems from foot speed where Paul is one the best at moving his feet and Kirk tends to drag his when surrounded by defenders.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's all over the place.

There's a huge difference between "elite" PG's and merely "pure" PG's. One is Chris Paul; the other is Steve Blake. No one's arguing that Paul would be better to have than Hinrich. If it were a straight swap, I'd rather have Arenas than Hinrich at PG, and he's less 'pure'.

How intentional is your awkwardness and how much is natural? For all your "pure" and "true" talk, you sure muddy the waters of discussion.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Then clarify it for me.

I don't mind. I'm just trying to lead you guys who "know" into a discussion fo what's the most important next step the Bulls should make in order to get the most bang for their improvement buck.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

First priority.

Get a coach w/ a definite philosophy. Then figure out who fits into that.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For example.

You get Larry Brown or Carlisle or someone from the past 10-15 years, then yeah, go for the "proven" "low-post" guy.

But if you got someone like Weber, I wouldn't make any major changes. Re-sign Deng first and foremost. See what the coach wants with Gordon. Get rid of Hughes??? Get a SG in the draft and establish a 3-5 year championship plan that includes 45-50 wins every year in the meantime.

Kirk can run a break just fine. I think he could get a big spike in offensive production in the right system while still playing good D.

First priority is to get a coach to develop a frontline 23 years old.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Get a coach w/ a definite philosophy

Scary shit, man.
We actually agreed dead on about something.

You are exactly correct.
No matter WHO is on this team - it ain't gonna do JACK without a GOOD coach with a solid plan.

Period.

Just watch Phil, and the new look Lakers....like last night.
Kobe is like watching Jordan of years ago, and it's all done "Phil style".
They were trailing the whole game until about 6 minutes to go - and then Kobe puts it in another gear, takes over, and they rip the heart out of the Kings fans.

Absolutely beautiful basketball to behold.

Spring training....FINALLY!!

by Bluelou on Mar 5, 2008 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if they can get an upgrade, sure

but that's like 10 players in the whole league. Trading for Jose Calderon is different than doing the same for Crittenton

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I would try to pry loose

either Ford or Calderon. Either one of them would be a difference-maker on the Bulls.

I'd like the Bulls to identify the teams with a surplus of PG talent and try to swap some of our surplus of SG talent. Toronto is a good target. So is, in my opinion, Memphis.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Crittenton was a PG in college

But a PG like Marbury. He's a creator off the dribble. He's more of a slasher than a shooter. Over time, he'll be a combo guard. Memphis is trying to determine what kind of guard rotation they can work between Navarro, Lowry, Conley, and Crittenton.

Lowry can score at will against Ben Gordon. Once you're past Gordon he has zero recovery defensive skills. He doesn't have long arms to tip the ball away from behind. His hands are not quick enough to force a jump ball. And he doesn't have instant springs to elevate to challenge most shots. Better footwork on defense would really limit the ability to exploit Gordon.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gameflow, 82.games and I agree

Last updated +/- net value per 100 possessions

Noah +8,2
Thomas +3,9
Noc +3,6
Thabo +3,1
Duh -0,1
Hinrich -1,5
Larry -1,5
Gray -1,7
Deng -4,1
BG -5,8
Gooden -11,0

Anyone got Boylan's e-mail adress?

by Bass on Mar 5, 2008 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Putting aside the

stupidity of taking out both Noah and TT in a game where they would still have won, why do the Bulls (BOYLAN) insist on putting undersized power forwards at center!? It drives me crazy. I am so fucking tired of seeing this. IT used to be Nocioni or Joe Smith, now it's Gooden. These players are not centers! There's so much wrong with this coaching staff, it's not even funny. They need a coach who knows what he he is doing. Boylan see's his team struggling to score, so he automatically thinks, "Gee, let's get undersized! That will fix everything!" A continuing battle of frustration with this team.

by RogersPark Kris on Mar 5, 2008 9:07 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Who on Memphis was going to make Boylan pay?

As much as I disagree with many of Boylan's moves, playing Gooden at center is reasonable against most teams. Who else is he going to play C, Aaron Gray? Against the team with the 7th highest pace factor in the league? If Boylan's not going to play Noah at C, I'd much rather see Gooden in that situation. The only problem I have with Boylan in this regard is his failure to see that Noah and Thomas have skills that allow the team to play at a fast pace like they have gone small without actually having gone small.

by snley on Mar 5, 2008 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's Memphis

They play Darko at center so it doesn't really matter who the Bulls put at center as long as it wasn't Deng or one of the guards. It's the general philosophy that screams of being out couched in a sense of "I have no idea how what to do,instead of having some plays or adjusting defensive/offensive plays, let's just throw this out, and hopefully it will work." I can't think of a single game this year where this actually panned out. In fact, more times then not, it turned the existing deficit into a larger one. I would like to see Boylan make some sort of intelligent decisions. If you're back court players are getting beat, what good is it to go small? The front court players have nothing to do with it! I guess that's my real problem. That Boylan doesn't see the real problems.

by RogersPark Kris on Mar 5, 2008 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why Gooden at center is bad

Memphis just did whatever they wanted in the paint. No shot blockers equals pitch a tent in the Bulls' paint.

I think Noc had one block on Crittenton in the 4th, but that was really because Critt took a bad angle to the basket.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So maybe the issue is Gooden at C w/ Noce at PF.

Rotation should probably be limited to the following PF/C combos: Thomas/Noah; Noce/Noah; Thomas/Gooden; Gooden/Thomas. No, I didn't forget Gray, just figure he should only play when match ups warrant, so whoever whoever plays the 4 w/ him is obviously going to have to be matched up against the opponent's post player w/ a modicum of athleticism.

by snley on Mar 5, 2008 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oops, that last pair should be Gooden/Noah

by snley on Mar 5, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The rule for shot blockers

I think it's good to always have a shot blocker on the floor if you've got the roster to do so. If you don't I think you need to try to have the shot blockers out there whenever there are opponent guards that are below average shooters that rely on dribble penetration to be effective on offense.

With Memphis, Navarro, Conley, Crittenton, and Lowry are all going to penetrate to disrupt the defense. Therefore, make sure there is at least one proven shot blocker tasked with guarding an offensive post player that is glued to the paint. Darko has no mid range game and he struggles immensely going to his right. Tyrus can guard him. Noah can too.

Tyrus and Noah both sat for the entire 4th quarter. We finished it only -1. This was only because our shots were falling. Throughout the season those shots have not fallen consistently. Boylan should have shot blocking in the forefront of his mind especially going into our next stretch of games. Boston, Detroit, Cleveland, and Utah are all going to exploit guard matchups and push them into the paint as much as possible.

Bottom 5 shooting teams must play dynamite defense if they hope to win these games.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just for you, Sue

from KC's game report in the Tribune:

"I liked his ballhandling and shooting, and he was doing a great job running the team," Boylan said. "Since I've taken over, Kirk in my opinion has grown as a point guard. He has more confidence and runs the team more. He talks more in the huddle. He's asserting himself. I appreciate that and like to let him run with it."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080304-chicago-bulls-memphis-griz zlies,1,416237.story

I guess I'd be a little happier with the quote if Boylan weren't trying to weasel some of the credit, but still, it's nice of hm to say it.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 9:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yabbut...

...if he has made a conscious effort of it, and it is something that has improved (two things that, right now, are only known by Boylan's word), why not? The positives he can take credit for are far and few.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It just strikes me as unseemly.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

There are a lot of ways to say something like that without making it sound as if you had something to do with it.

by Sports2 on Mar 5, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

interesting comment

given that Boylan basically benched Kirk the last two games.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

or just

inconsistent ramblings.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

book it

Say anything Boylan strikes again. Perhaps if he did more interviews we could gauge his methods, but all the things we can see in games communicates the idea that Boylan has almost no calculated approach to his players.

I read those quotes and I just cringe.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Alec

I saw Jimbo's post game press conference and heard him say those things.

by sue369 on Mar 5, 2008 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

IMO

Kirk and Gooden are gone after this season. Gooden has value as an expiring contract and Kirk could be made expendible by the Hughes/thabo/Gordon backcourt. Or if gordon leaves bring in a true point (finally). Moving those two for a mystery scoring big and drafting a true point (plenty of them are available, Lawson is in our draft range for example) makes alot of sense to me. Kirk needs a change of scenery.

by haze on Mar 5, 2008 9:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

agreed

The Bulls should get rid of every decent player, get even younger, and make sure no one who plays point guard can shoot.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Mar 5, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If I'm reading you right

you're saying the Bulls should keep their decent players, get older, and make sure whoever plays point guard can shoot.

The truth is, hscs, and I'm sure you don't need to be told this, you are one of the "expert" posters on the site. As such, your true opinions do matter to some of us--to me, anyway, they do.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it was just a snarky retort

I really don't see the value in it. I'm just sick of the 'true' cliche, hand-wringing over a position that gets way too much credit and blame, and upgrades in the draft. More simply, there is no reason to get rid of anyone unless there's a real upgrade who can replace and out-produce someone immediately.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Mar 5, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"true" and "pure" would be

banned on this blog if I had my choice.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I like to think

I'm a "pure" blogger.

by RogersPark Kris on Mar 5, 2008 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you have a blog?

:-p

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder who this is:

Ty (Omaha, NE): So... as Bulls fans we want to know who the new coach will be. How about Phil Weber from Phoenix? Offensive-minded and has been developing players. He got his start in Florida, so how about you join him? How could you turn down a starting frontline of #4, #7 and #9 picks and will barely be 23 on Opening Day? Oh, and did I mention you'll have another lottery pick to add to that?

SportsNation David Thorpe: (12:16 PM ET ) I wrote that months ago. He's a really positive guy and comes from a perfect system for their roster (minus the Nash clone).

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 11:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

That's funny.

We had that discussion here months ago.

by alec on Mar 5, 2008 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I finally Saw the Game

Thank you comcast for having those 2am replays. I wasnt planning on watching the game, but i came on blogabull read the few comments (man where was everyone) and just saw some positive points on kirk and decided id take a gamble and watch the game. I was glad I did.

Was it just me, or did Kirk seem uber-peppy? I know on timeouts i saw him drinking gatorade and i think it might have been gatorade A.M. (the one that has caffine in it)but then again, maybe he had something mixed with his gatorade (dont they usually drink out of those little cups, why did he have a bottle of his own?) Whatever the case, man he was everywhere. He definetly looked like the fastest guy on the court, and i loved the fact that he didnt bitch or moan about bad calls or turnovers.

Not sure what he did to react that way, but hope he does it all season long (unless its drugs, although if its helping him...)Even in a craptastic season, if my favorite player performs well then i can manage to have hope...not that its anything good.

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Mar 5, 2008 12:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'll take the credit for Kirk's game...

I ended up missing this one completely, due to an unbeleivably weird set of circumstances all starting with the fact that my phone line is out and ending with having no TV and no internet - so of course this was going to be one of Kirk's best games. ;)

But I guess I can't really take credit, since Boylan already has.

Maybe I'll take up hockey.

by wjb1492 on Mar 5, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice

I liked that boylan remark. I always feel that when i am dissapointed with the bulls, and post something negetive about kirk, the following game he shines. WHen i then post about how he is an awesome player, he sucks. Its an odd thing, this sports superstition thought.

Also do you now what a torrent is? If you do then you might want to go here http://bt.davka.info/ .
You could download last nights game but you need a torrent program (google bitlord, there are others, but i like that one). Its basically a p2p system (like napster or limewire) and you can download the game. (if you do know what a torrent is, then sorry for dumbing this down)

I would consider that this has to be hinrichs second best game of the season (the best has to be his 38pt game against the pacers). I wish he would have one of these against a better team, but this will do for now if you are a hinrich fan.

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Mar 5, 2008 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the info on getting the game

Superstitions are funny. I don't believe them enough to act on them - but they sure cross my mind when something is going poorly. It seems I'm forever turning the game on just in time to see the Bulls lose a lead!

Maybe I'll take up hockey.

by wjb1492 on Mar 5, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting link

bookmark'd

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea

THe only wierd thing is in the memphis game, we get the memphis announcers, its kind of cool, when the bulls do something great and the other teams announcers give you credit, you know it was great!

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Mar 5, 2008 8:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Is anyone downloading

The Memphis Game by chance, I am seeding (sharing) the file, but im gonna stop. If someone wants to download it but cant find any seeders let me know, and ill seed mine.

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Mar 5, 2008 8:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea, if you wouldn't mind.:)

by philosoball on Mar 5, 2008 9:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

seeding now

ill seed at 40kb (im gonna be playing xbox live, plus my sister is using her laptop so probably mooching off my modem) until 11. Then before i sleep ill put no limit on my upload, so hopefully you should have it at the latest tomaro morning. Sorry if thats not soon enough, at least youll have it though i guess.

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Mar 5, 2008 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're the best!

by philosoball on Mar 5, 2008 9:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hmm

i bet there's a lot of unused blogabull bandwidth in the middle of the night...

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 5, 2008 10:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How does BaB work

I mean does matt have full access to a server or something. If so could he open up like a little place where people could put bulls related torrents and such??? We have a big enough fan base, and we do have people who record games in some form. I mean, no one would ever have to miss a game. Thats an idea huh?

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Mar 5, 2008 11:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I have it recorded

but haven't watched it yet. I'm looking forward to seeing Kirk's play since he has been so up and down this season. He did say in the post game press conference that he felt fresh last night. It might have been what he was drinking but whatever it was I hope he continues to play like he did last night.

by sue369 on Mar 5, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Do you save all the games?

Ive thought about doing that, but dont have anything to record with (although i did have my cousins record the pacer game on thier computer). Look out for the larry hughes save to hinrich play, or one of hinrichs steal and breakaway plays, at 2am i was jumping up and down all excited cuz of them. Maybe cuz its been along time since ive seen the man play the game the way i think he should always play.

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Mar 5, 2008 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I only recorded this

game because for some reason when CSN shows the games on CSN+ they are blocked out for me. I couldn't get it on NBALP either. When CSN reshowed the game at 2 a.m. I recorded it then. Love your excitement over the game. I'll watch it later today.

by sue369 on Mar 5, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Or

what he was not drinking -- aka "the sauce".

New plan. Get Kirk a driver/escort/wingman to let the girls near him, but keep the drinks far away.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

More Hinrich Goodies

"STAT SHEET STUFFER
Kirk Hinrich finished with 19 points, 12 assists, and four rebounds in the Bulls' 112-97 win over the Grizzlies on Tuesday night ... and he also blocked four shots. Hinrich, that is. Blocked four shots. Four blocks, for Hinrich. Of course, he gets paid very well to do things like score and pass, but block shots? Does he expect a raise? His teammate Drew Gooden was well-rounded as well on Tuesday, scoring 21 points and grabbing 14 rebounds. "

http://www.nba.com/aroundtheassociation/080304.html

Nice, even nba.com finally acknowledged him (somewhat) more of this would be nice.

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Mar 5, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Boylan can't be stopped

He wants to make the playoffs, overplay the team's problems, and get a job here or elsewhere. Without firing him, I don't see it happening.

He doesn't think he has enough time to develop Ty and Jo, and so will mortgage their future for his job, to some degree.

If I was the coach, I would play the kids, since their development can also be pointed to a selling point. Tyrus and Noah can definitely make Boylan look good if they become big-minute starters by the end of the year. But it's a bigger risk to do that.

Drew Gooden beard meter - 6 (Old Amish Carpenter)

by cubbybear on Mar 5, 2008 1:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Paxson has said

"it's not about wins and losses" when evaluating Boylan.

But maybe you're right, Boylan figures even if it doesn't impress Pax he can impress some other poor sap GM.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 5, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What is he being evaluated on then?

Is it about randomly benching players for no reason to make it look like you have authority? Because based on what Boylan has done, he obviously isn't being evaluated based on how the young players develop (or else he's so stupid that he's openly defying Paxson's wishes).

by Big D on Mar 5, 2008 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thats a good point Matt

i bet Boylan already knows he wont be back. And i bet Pax figures he'll do a guy like Boylan a favor and make him the coach to display his X&O talent for to set him up for a opportunity next year with another club. Pax is such a nice guy :)

by Takeaseat on Mar 5, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Steve Kerr was interviewed

by Chad Ford for the "Daily Dish" podcast on 3/4. Kerr said he talks to Paxson a lot.

I found that rather funny.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 5, 2008 4:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

why?

They are good friends.

by KT on Mar 5, 2008 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And he didn't want to do a Wallace for...

...Stoudamire deal? Astounding!!!!

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 5, 2008 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

idk

if this has been said before but lets say Boylan gets a deal with the Bulls. Woudnt he want to play TT an Jokim more becuase they are our future and if hes planning on being our coach in the future wouldnt it make sense to play the TT and Jo ?

by eross226 on Mar 5, 2008 6:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Let's not say

I think everyone here pretty much agrees that there is no chance Boylan stays

by Option27 on Mar 5, 2008 6:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope Boylan is gone to

BUT you never know what paxson is thinking.

by eross226 on Mar 5, 2008 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What should Boylan have done

with this opportunity? The most obvious way he's going to impress anyone as coach is with a good win/loss record now, damn the future. After all, if he doesn't win enough to get the job or if the players don't even develop, then he's just wasted the opportunity of a life time trying to develop guys he'll no longer be associated with. He believed putting his faith in the veterans would pay off with a permanent position. Judging by his recent in game decisions, I would think he's still trying to coach for wins to get him a job. He took the safe road, and it appears that road is going to lead him right back to sitting next to Skiles on the bench.

by snley on Mar 5, 2008 7:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs