Bulls Beat podcast dishes locker room dirt
[ed. note: From the diaries. I heard this podcast myself yesterday and am glad Sports2 has picked up the slack - seems like a recent theme - and did a write-up. I've heard (both from primary and secondary sources, although I have even fewer sources than Doug (Thonus, who's a moderator at the RealGM forum) who does the BullsBeat) some similar and differing things. I agree with Sports2 that Paxson deserves blame, but I also agree with Doug that a great coaching hire would magically fix a lot of things, although not directly. Someone other than Boylan would mean winning, and that fixes most of the 'chemistry' muckedy muck. That and the inevitable drafting of Tyler Hansbrough. -Matt]
[NOTE TWO: If you don't bother listening to the podcast, know that it's repeated many times that while this is based on sources it's not a formal report, and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. -Matt]
After listening to some of the inside dirt dished in the latest Bulls beat podcast (MP3 Direct Link), I sort of reached the conclusion that if things are truly this bad, change needs to occur a the top. Even if only some of it is true, my thinking is that Paxson ought to be canned for letting things become this much of a mess.
To summarize some of the main points I took from this:
- Tyrus Thomas is clueless on the court, really isn't trying hard enough, and isn't liked by, well, almost everyone.
- Luol Deng wants out.
- Nothing new, but Boylan is neither liked nor respected by basically everyone on the team.
- Noah has gone to significant lengths to try and develop his skills, and has received very little support from the Bulls.
- This seems to be true of almost everyone, and the craziest example to date is that Deng and Noah have apparently hired outside experts to give them extra coaching and film prep because the Bulls aren't doing what they consider enough.
- Plopping Gooden and Hughes into featured roles almost immediately rubbed Tyrus, Hinrich and Gordon the wrong may. In Tyrus' case, I don't know that his anger is justified since, at least in my opinion, there are still plenty of minutes available for Ty if he just takes them (since two bigs went out and only one came back in the trade) and since, frankly, Gooden is a much better player.
So add it all up...
... and you've got a big-time trainwreck. In the podcast, the suggestion is the only hope for the Bulls is to get a coach in to magically fix all this, but when I look at these problems, they're problems of management, not coaching.
Back to the bigger picture. In the podcast, the suggestion is the only hope for the Bulls is to get a coach in to magically fix all this, but when I look at these problems, they're problems of management, not coaching.
If you've let a situation go on for two coaches now in which players are trying to improve and not getting help, that's a problem of management.
If you've drafted a guy knowing he was surly and prone to not handling pressure well, but you didn't do anything special to create a supportive environment for him, then that's a problem of management.
If you've got players who are known for being good guys who try their ass off, and they're consistently exhibiting disrespect for their coach, you've hired a truly horrible coach and then let him negatively impact the team. In Bulls fandom people often talk about how bringing in the wrong element could harm players' attitudes. Like, bringing in a Zach Randolph or Stephon Marbury type might be a like bringing in a team cancer and a huge mistake. Well, what's a team cancer if it's not Jim Boylan? He's got to be up there with guys like Marbury when it comes to turning a team's attitude in the wrong direction. Just like we'd say it's a mistake by management to bring in a team cancer of a player, it's certainly a mistake to bring in a team cancer of a coach. That's a problem of management.
So add it up, and I don't see how this problem really gets fixed without new management. There are guys out there, like Donnie Walsh, who know what they're doing. Why not pick him up?
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because Donnie Walsh hasn't done anything
by hscs on Mar 26, 2008 11:35 AM CDT 0 recs
And,
by upther on
Mar 26, 2008 12:02 PM CDT
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45 million!
The report said 3 years, 15 million which is still damn good money for an executive position.
by NBA Observer on
Mar 26, 2008 2:47 PM CDT
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Good lord, tell me you're joking
by NBA Observer on
Mar 26, 2008 2:46 PM CDT
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Good, you are
by NBA Observer on
Mar 26, 2008 2:49 PM CDT
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Doesn't sound like Paxson is going anywhere soon
I'm willing to give Pax one more season. A lot of things have gone wrong this season and it's not clear to me that Pax is disproportionately to blame for what has happened. As an example, Tyrus was the starter at the beginning of the season and if he remained that way, I don't know if anybody would argue that he needed a more supportive environment than what he has now. Losing has a way of making everybody look bad.
Pax should get one more chance to make this right.
by paxson43 on Mar 26, 2008 11:37 AM CDT 0 recs
Let me add
by paxson43 on
Mar 26, 2008 12:10 PM CDT
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On the Kelly Dwyer's live blog...
As Sports2 said (and alluded to), not all players are made the same. One of the best attributes of a teacher is his/her ability to adapt to the type of teaching that an individual needs.
by tyger1147 on
Mar 26, 2008 12:15 PM CDT
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Jeez, I agree with you again.
A problem for the Bulls is that neither Paxson/Skiles nor Paxson/Boylan has responded.
by alec on
Mar 26, 2008 12:29 PM CDT
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how do you...
by leeac on
Mar 26, 2008 12:49 PM CDT
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Who knows?
Maybe bargain? Talk to him? Maybe he just needs to know someone in the organization cares about him as a person. He came in the league as a recently-turned 20-year-old; it's not unlikely that he still needed emotional development as a person.
He may never be coachable, but from all the info we have (which is, obviously, not everything), it hardly seems like the Bulls have gone to extra lengths to figure him out. And it's their responsibility to themselves to do so.
by tyger1147 on
Mar 26, 2008 12:58 PM CDT
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i think that's my issue
by Jaina on
Mar 26, 2008 1:02 PM CDT
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i...
how about his family? or his agents? wasn't his uncle or someone from louisiana moving in with him because he had never been away from home? how about his agent that swipes a percentage of each of his paychecks, can these people hold his hand and show him how to play the game called life? if they can't, that probably means he's more of a jackass than we even know.
i think the bulls have made solid, if unspectacular, efforts to hold TT's hand. they brought in AD to help him out his rookie year. i guess it didn't help much? when TT made those comments about the all-star game and getting paid last year, wasn't it the bulls that guided him to say the right things instead of leaving him hanging? didn't the bulls pick up mike brown this year to help TT develop that god-awful running left-hand hook shot? if anything, the bulls aren't communicating with TT on what his role is on this team. or if they are, perhaps this jackass just doesn't care anymore? what kind of coach does it take to tell a kid to take his 15 minutes a game and give everything he has into crashing the boards and freeing himself for putbacks and layups? do you think sloan has a problem telling that to a milsap? at some point, and i'm not saying the bulls have reached that point, but at some point, you toss your hands in the air and call it a loss. if this TT kid, in year 2 of his rookie contract, and after not having earned a DAMNED thing, determines that he can 'skip' a practice or slough off during practice or games, then screw him. drop his unlimited potential ass off at the train station with a one way ticket to E-Rob's house and tell him to flip off. and once he develops AI talent, to come back and the bulls will be more than willing to put up with his type of BS 'bout practice', but until them, his unlimited potential and a bag of chips still equals a bag of chips. unless they're salt and vinegar, in which case, slightly more than just a bag of chips.
sorry tyrus4prez.
by leeac on
Mar 26, 2008 1:55 PM CDT
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PJ Brown
This from the man who had nothing to say, absolutely nothing, about the Bulls organization at that time.
by bullhockey on
Mar 26, 2008 2:36 PM CDT
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This is what gives me hope about him.
*If anyone mentions the dunk contest crap, then they're idiots and should just jab their fingers in their own eyes right now.
by tyger1147 on
Mar 26, 2008 3:14 PM CDT
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with...
as far as pj brown's glowing comments on TT, if you could cite a link that would be great. i've already fallen off the TT bandwagon, but any glimmers of hope appreciated.
by leeac on
Mar 26, 2008 3:30 PM CDT
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that's weird, my Exhibit A
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Mar 26, 2008 3:39 PM CDT
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there's a certain...
for instance:
"matt really jagbagged his assessment of tyrus' minutes."
"matt was a real jagbag in his response to some of the forum posts yesterday."
"matt must have been in a jagbag mood when he wrote his game preview."
see? feeling better already... :)
by leeac on
Mar 26, 2008 4:14 PM CDT
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Here, found it...
by bullhockey on
Mar 26, 2008 3:54 PM CDT
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sam smith frequently sez
Does anyone care about the dunk contest?
by hscs on
Mar 26, 2008 4:09 PM CDT
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Nobody cares about the dunk contest
by Big D on
Mar 26, 2008 4:54 PM CDT
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Big D...
and what exactly is your point big D?... because LeBron doesn't participate in a contest, does that give free reign for the other hundreds of NBA players to openly disrespect it?
by leeac on
Mar 26, 2008 5:18 PM CDT
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Figured you'd be the first ___________
SNAP!
SCANDAL!
THUG!!!!
Leeac, go jagbag yourself.
by tyger1147 on
Mar 26, 2008 5:20 PM CDT
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i
"*If anyone mentions the dunk contest crap, then they're idiots and should just jab their fingers in their own eyes right now."
i'm not sure where you get your information from, or how you came up with your attempt to "fill in" what you hope the question might have been from the reporters in order to elicit such a response from TT, but at best, it was a weak attempt. then adding in the part about "SCANDAL!" "THUG!", i guess i'm not sure what your purpose was for that? i love reading people's opinions on TT, but for some people, i think it gets a little too personal.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2756552
The first Bulls player since Scottie Pippen in 1990 to participate in the event, Thomas was quoted in Tuesday's editions of the Tribune as saying: "I'm just going to go out there, get my check and call it a day."
When asked if being around some of the game's greats could be beneficial for a rookie, he responded, "I'm just into the free money. That's it. I'll just do whatever when I get out there."
http://www.insidehoops.com/tyrus-thomas-fined-020607.shtml
"The league office has chosen Tyrus to participate in one of its premiere All-Star events and that is an honor that should be accepted with humility," he continued. "I spoke to Tyrus this morning and am confident he understands that he made a mistake with his words and that he also understands the importance of representing the Bulls and the NBA in a positive way."
by leeac on
Mar 26, 2008 5:46 PM CDT
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it's a free world, and a great blog...
in the work world, as many of you know, you come across jagbags once in awhile. and if you have, you'll know that you don't want them working for you, nor do you want to work next to them. people who are in it for themselves tend to bring the quality of work down along with the morale of the group. i hope i'm making some sense with this one. you can carry someone like that for only so long, but after they've worn out their welcome, they need to go. for some reason, that's how i perceive TT. i hope that doesn't upset some of you too much that i think that way, but i'm sure it'll ruffle a few feathers.
bottom line is, that when you see me at the games, i'm still rooting for the same team you are.
by leeac on
Mar 26, 2008 5:58 PM CDT
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Last year, I felt Skiles
I think the Bulls have completely missed the boat with Tyrus. They've treated him like an effing army bootcamp recruit. We don't have 100,000 chances to do it over with the next guy. They get one chance, at best (or worst, depending on how they got there), per year to make it work with one guy.
by alec on
Mar 26, 2008 2:12 PM CDT
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bootcamp recruit?
- come to practice
- learn the offensive plays.
- learn the defensive plays.
- utilize what you have learned.
- go home and spend your millions.
by leeac on
Mar 26, 2008 2:35 PM CDT
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Alright.
What I was trying to say is the army HAS to treat everybody the same. The Bulls don't, and shouldn't, but seem to anyway.
by alec on
Mar 26, 2008 2:39 PM CDT
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yessir
They don't have someone worth completely coddling like the Cavs do with LeBron, but they should see that they traded the 2nd overall pick for a guy, and since his success is more important he should be treated as more important.
The 'earn your way' doctrine isn't even followed regardless, so why pretend.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Mar 26, 2008 2:56 PM CDT
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mine too
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Mar 26, 2008 2:14 PM CDT
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lol!
I've heard a lot of people say, in effect, "WTF? The guy's a pro. He's making millions of dollars. Get with the program!"
But I disagree. I think Tyrus is a weird guy, and the team will have to go some distance to unlock his (I think, obviously great) physical potential. How they do it, I don't know, but I think in order to do it, they'll have to be willing to be creative, and not just try to stuff him in the same box with every other player.
Maybe I'm delusional, but something tells me Phil Jackson would have been able to come up with some unconventional way to wring the full potential out of Tyrus.
by alec on
Mar 26, 2008 1:01 PM CDT
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One thing I was thinking last night
by wjb1492 on
Mar 26, 2008 1:09 PM CDT
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Speaking of Drew...
by alec on
Mar 26, 2008 1:22 PM CDT
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starting to agree
by kig on
Mar 26, 2008 1:34 PM CDT
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you don't watch the games, either...
by bullshooter on
Mar 26, 2008 1:48 PM CDT
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i'll fess up to that
by kig on
Mar 26, 2008 2:00 PM CDT
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He's good, not great
by shoryuken on
Mar 26, 2008 2:07 PM CDT
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It's those flashes of actual
He sure dominated his matchup with Boozer.
by bullhockey on
Mar 26, 2008 2:33 PM CDT
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i've thought
by Jaina on
Mar 26, 2008 1:36 PM CDT
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if we're drafting late lottery
But he's not going to do what he did against the Hawks every game (that's not being inconsistent, merely average), and he's a poor and mostly indifferent defender. So if they're relying on him 35+ minutes like he's been getting, they'll be bad, like they're being.
But he can be in a good frontcourt rotation, sure. One thing to note is that his contract may be more valuable than he himself is, so I can see him dealt even if he's 'liked' by the organization.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Mar 26, 2008 2:18 PM CDT
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You know the season's down the tubes...
by tyger1147 on
Mar 26, 2008 2:27 PM CDT
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heh
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Mar 26, 2008 2:29 PM CDT
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I'm not sure Donnie Walsh is any better
The thing I like about Paxson is he's shown the ability to change his philosophies, like he did when drafting Tyrus and Thabo when the team lacked athleticism. And unlike crappier GMs, he has taken responsibility for the state of the team.
I'd give Pax another year to work things out. He's got to get some balls this offseason though, this team needs some shakin' up.
by YaoPau on Mar 26, 2008 12:04 PM CDT 0 recs
uh
I'm all for pooh-poohing Walsh as a has-been, but his resume is pretty good.
by hscs on
Mar 26, 2008 12:14 PM CDT
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Depends on what you are grading
by bullshooter on
Mar 26, 2008 1:43 PM CDT
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it's not super impressive
by hscs on
Mar 26, 2008 2:23 PM CDT
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The big knock on Walsh here (in Indy)
This led to things like following Isaiah Thomas' advice (since he was the coach) in drafting Fred Jones instead of Tayshaun Prince (who was favored by Walsh and the entire scouting department). That's the story I've heard here repeatedly anyway.
Bird came in to slowly take over the reigns and, in the meantime, Walsh got it together and concluded he didn't really want to retire.
So the Pacers had a choice between a guy who's got an expiring contract (Walsh), and a guy they'd picked as the long-term replacement (Bird), who is also under contract for the next two years anyway.
by Sports2 on
Mar 26, 2008 2:37 PM CDT
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Players hiring outside help isn't unusual.
That's why I'm against finding a coach based on what "system" they run. The Bulls need coaches that can develop these guys into great individual talents, not pound them into some mold to fit a system. If they do that for three years, and these guys develop, but it becomes obvious the coach isn't a great X's and O's guy, then you have these good-to-great players entering their prime to entice another coach.
These players simply aren't good enough right now to be a great team. However, with the draft pick this year, they'll have four guys selected 4th, 7th, 9th & 8/9/10 all under the age of 24 who will all (hopefully) have real potential. Thomas, Noah and Deng are good players RIGHT NOW, and all have the potential, to varying degrees, to be well above-average, even great players. I'm putting very little stock into evaluating any of the players based on this season. (except, of course, Noah since that's all we have for info.)
I was willing to let Paxson go for this season and basically blame it all on Wallace and then Boylan, but the fact that he's let this farce continue so long and hasn't (apparently) privately met with players to let them know what's going on, I have my doubts. My guess now is that the Bulls hire some re-tread for cheap, draft Tyler Hansbrough or Kevin Love, trade Thomas for Shane Battier, lose Gordon because they won't pay him enough, lose Deng because he doesn't want to be there and suck for the next five years with no hope.
by tyger1147 on Mar 26, 2008 12:10 PM CDT 0 recs
Absolutely agree.
I think, rather than showing any deficiency on the part of the Bulls, it shows championship caliber desire on the part of Deng and Noah.
Every ambitious person in a competitive field goes outside his/her company for special assistance.
If anything, I'm more disappointed in the rest of the players for NOT seeking outside help.
by alec on
Mar 26, 2008 12:24 PM CDT
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The Most Damning Information Yet
In five years, we haven't seen any development in BG's game (still has a poor handle) or Deng's (shot has regressed, while he still hasn't shown improved strength or post-up ability). Tyrus is a mess as the clip from his LSU tournament run makes clear.
In the absence of lucking into a superstar, teams like the Bulls count on incremental progression from season to season. If Paxson cannot identify a staff that can foster an environment that encourages such a progression, he needs to go immediately before the team hires a new coach.
by Gene Banks on Mar 26, 2008 12:14 PM CDT 0 recs
Andrew Bogut
by KT on
Mar 26, 2008 12:41 PM CDT
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The idea of outside help doesnt' bother me
I remember during one of the Celtics games they showed Doc Rivers discussing something Rondo had done with him during a TO, and Rondo asking whether it was good or bad - and the broadcast team commented on that beinga great example of teaching, and that Rondo felt comfortable asking for clarification to be sure he understood. Then there were the Bulls' timeouts full of either the Boylan angry cold shoulder treatment or the rah-rah, energy and enthusiasm and heart stuff, and I rarely see one of the coaches for the Bulls going over to talk with someone after they get pulled from the game. It bothered me even in the game setting, but to think that the lack of teaching in-game is not even being offset by good film review sessions is infuriating. Even if they have guys who are several years into the league, the team overall is still the youngest in the nba.
Especially with the guys making the same mistakes over and over in losing 4th quarter leads, you'd think the team would be going over game tape - does Boylan think he doesn't need to because the players comment on not doing the same things in the 4th? Knowing the team is playing differently is so completely not the same as seeing exactly what they're doing wrong and talking through what decisions would have been better.
Sorry I'm ranting. That podcast was just so depressing, and I didn't think the season could get any more depressing than it already was.
by wjb1492 on
Mar 26, 2008 1:02 PM CDT
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Yeah
I do question to what extent we're talking about there. I do recall reading that they had regular film sessions under Skiles, so perhaps this is a Boylan "innovation". On the other hand, Noah having to actually ask for a playbook was probably from when Skiles was still around.
Perhaps some of these things have more merit than others, but when I look at the whole mess I have a hard time thinking it's not pretty damning.
by Sports2 on
Mar 26, 2008 1:56 PM CDT
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In an article this summer
So perhaps the issue is what the players want, not the lack of the film study.
From the discussion of this at RealGM, it's clear Doug is hearing these things not from the players, but from other parties. Things get lost in translation.
by KT on
Mar 26, 2008 2:03 PM CDT
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Bulls Inc had a 30+ million net profit last year
My $20 operation has video tape. WTF!
by NBA Observer on
Mar 26, 2008 2:54 PM CDT
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i'm willing to give pax one more year
the whole thing with tyrus is depressing.. it totally sounds as if he has given up. yes there are plenty of minutes for him, but he can't just get on the floor if his coach insists on going small for the entire 4th quarter each game. as for tyrus being rubbed the wrong way, while it may seem like he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on, when he's given more minutes, he has done pretty well, as exhibited in the denver game among others. he's just been jerked around. maybe with a new coach there can be resurrection for tyrus the way it worked for thabo.
ugh. can't wait for this season to be over.. can only hope for a better next one.
by Jaina on Mar 26, 2008 12:48 PM CDT 0 recs
I see you've gone all
by alec on
Mar 26, 2008 1:05 PM CDT
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lol
by Jaina on
Mar 26, 2008 1:13 PM CDT
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On one hand,
But a crucial next step in the decline was the acquisition of Griffin at the expense of athleticism/skill.
The other blows to viability have received countless mentions (poor negotiating with BG/Deng being just one).
Bottom line is that hindsight is 20/20, but on the other hand, GM's like Buford and Colangelo (when he was running the Suns) simply don't make mistakes like these. Or else, like Mullins or Colangelo (the one in Toronto) or the Trailblazers' GM (forgetting his name), they make enough good decisions that they avoid having failing seasons--and that's what this is.
I'm on the fence regarding whether Pax should stay or go right now, but if he is fired this off-season, this would not be unfair. It's not as if he wasn't given a chance.
By the way, he also waited too long to jettison Wallace and Grif after their disgraceful season.
by bullhockey on
Mar 26, 2008 2:47 PM CDT
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One other note from the podcast . . .
by Big D on Mar 26, 2008 1:09 PM CDT 0 recs
Boylan is working on
by piccolomair on
Mar 26, 2008 1:14 PM CDT
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Yeah, um, with all due respect to
by 1958ChiTown on Mar 26, 2008 1:29 PM CDT 0 recs

