Blog a Bull: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:





Bulls Beat podcast dishes locker room dirt

[ed. note: From the diaries. I heard this podcast myself yesterday and am glad Sports2 has picked up the slack - seems like a recent theme - and did a write-up. I've heard (both from primary and secondary sources, although I have even fewer sources than Doug (Thonus, who's a moderator at the RealGM forum) who does the BullsBeat) some similar and differing things. I agree with Sports2 that Paxson deserves blame, but I also agree with Doug that a great coaching hire would magically fix a lot of things, although not directly. Someone other than Boylan would mean winning, and that fixes most of the 'chemistry' muckedy muck. That and the inevitable drafting of Tyler Hansbrough. -Matt]

[NOTE TWO: If you don't bother listening to the podcast, know that it's repeated many times that while this is based on sources it's not a formal report, and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. -Matt]

After listening to some of the inside dirt dished in the latest Bulls beat podcast (MP3 Direct Link), I sort of reached the conclusion that if things are truly this bad, change needs to occur a the top.  Even if only some of it is true, my thinking is that Paxson ought to be canned for letting things become this much of a mess.

To summarize some of the main points I took from this:

  1. Tyrus Thomas is clueless on the court, really isn't trying hard enough, and isn't liked by, well, almost everyone.
  2. Luol Deng wants out.
  3. Nothing new, but Boylan is neither liked nor respected by basically everyone on the team.
  4. Noah has gone to significant lengths to try and develop his skills, and has received very little support from the Bulls.
  5. This seems to be true of almost everyone, and the craziest example to date is that Deng and Noah have apparently hired outside experts to give them extra coaching and film prep because the Bulls aren't doing what they consider enough.
  6. Plopping Gooden and Hughes into featured roles almost immediately rubbed Tyrus, Hinrich and Gordon the wrong may. In Tyrus' case, I don't know that his anger is justified since, at least in my opinion, there are still plenty of minutes available for Ty if he just takes them (since two bigs went out and only one came back in the trade) and since, frankly, Gooden is a much better player.
Hinrich and Gordon have points though.  Even throwing out the possibility that they've earned any loyalty from the organization, I simply think they're both better players than Hughes, and they're playing less.  

So add it all up...

... and you've got a big-time trainwreck.  In the podcast, the suggestion is the only hope for the Bulls is to get a coach in to magically fix all this, but when I look at these problems, they're problems of management, not coaching.

Back to the bigger picture. In the podcast, the suggestion is the only hope for the Bulls is to get a coach in to magically fix all this, but when I look at these problems, they're problems of management, not coaching.

If you've let a situation go on for two coaches now in which players are trying to improve and not getting help, that's a problem of management.  

If you've drafted a guy knowing he was surly and prone to not handling pressure well, but you didn't do anything special to create a supportive environment for him, then that's a problem of management.

If you've got players who are known for being good guys who try their ass off, and they're consistently exhibiting disrespect for their coach, you've hired a truly horrible coach and then let him negatively impact the team.  In Bulls fandom people often talk about how bringing in the wrong element could harm players' attitudes.  Like, bringing in a Zach Randolph or Stephon Marbury type might be a like bringing in a team cancer and a huge mistake.  Well, what's a team cancer if it's not Jim Boylan?  He's got to be up there with guys like Marbury when it comes to turning a team's attitude in the wrong direction.  Just like we'd say it's a mistake by management to bring in a team cancer of a player, it's certainly a mistake to bring in a team cancer of a coach. That's a problem of management.

So add it up, and I don't see how this problem really gets fixed without new management. There are guys out there, like Donnie Walsh, who know what they're doing. Why not pick him up?

FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.

0 recs | Comment 125 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

because Donnie Walsh hasn't done anything
but take Larry Bird's lunch orders the past 5 years.
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Mar 26, 2008 11:35 AM CDT   0 recs

And,
It has pretty much been confirmed that he's going to sign a 3 year, $45 million contract with the Knicks after the season.  

by upther on Mar 26, 2008 12:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

45 million!
Wow the Knicks spend money faster than Hammer.

The report said 3 years, 15 million which is still damn good money for an executive position.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 26, 2008 2:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Good lord, tell me you're joking
You must know at least some minute details about Donnie Walsh.  To think he's taking lunch orders from Larry Bird is ridiculous.
The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 26, 2008 2:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Doesn't sound like Paxson is going anywhere soon
Article by Imrem (who?) at the Daily Herald covered this same topic today.  The author thinks Reinsdorf is likely to give Pax at least one more season to right the ship.

I'm willing to give Pax one more season.  A lot of things have gone wrong this season and it's not clear to me that Pax is disproportionately to blame for what has happened.  As an example, Tyrus was the starter at the beginning of the season and if he remained that way, I don't know if anybody would argue that he needed a more supportive environment than what he has now.  Losing has a way of making everybody look bad.

Pax should get one more chance to make this right.    

by paxson43 on Mar 26, 2008 11:37 AM CDT   0 recs

Let me add
WTF, Tyrus??  It'd be easier to cheer for him if I knew that he was busting his ass in practice everyday.  (I finally DL and listened to the podcast and it's pretty depressing)

by paxson43 on Mar 26, 2008 12:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

On the Kelly Dwyer's live blog...
...during the sixers game said Thomas took seven practice jumpshots at half-time and 6 were left-handed. I don't remember hearing all these "head case" problems last year. Maybe he's given up. If so, he needs to get his mind changed.

As Sports2 said (and alluded to), not all players are made the same. One of the best attributes of a teacher is his/her ability to adapt to the type of teaching that an individual needs.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 26, 2008 12:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Jeez, I agree with you again.
The only thing I might add is that if the coach/teacher is unable, for whatever reason, to connect with a particular player, it's the responsibility of management to see this and take corrective/supportive action.  

A problem for the Bulls is that neither Paxson/Skiles nor Paxson/Boylan has responded.

by alec on Mar 26, 2008 12:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

how do you...
suggest coaching a jagbag like thomas?

by leeac on Mar 26, 2008 12:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Who knows?
It's hard to say from our standpoint since we don't know him personally (it doesn't seem like the coaching staff/management does either). It easy to say that the Bulls haven't been able to.

Maybe bargain? Talk to him? Maybe he just needs to know someone in the organization cares about him as a person. He came in the league as a recently-turned 20-year-old; it's not unlikely that he still needed emotional development as a person.

He may never be coachable, but from all the info we have (which is, obviously, not everything), it hardly seems like the Bulls have gone to extra lengths to figure him out. And it's their responsibility to themselves to do so.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 26, 2008 12:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i think that's my issue
it seems like they haven't gone out of their way to help him.  they knew he basically hadn't left his hometown before going to lsu.  he obviously still has some growing up to do and it seems like they haven't tried to make him feel comfortable at all.
"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Mar 26, 2008 1:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i...
think it's a personality issue.  i'm sure we don't know all of the facts, like what he eats for breakfast or if he wipes his butt with this left or right hand, but from the insight we get from the media, and from his actions on and off the court, thomas would appear to be a grade-A jackass.  it's one thing to be a 19 year old kid fresh off the airplane, but he's been around for a couple years now, he was a jackass then, and he's still a jackass.  rather than place the blame on the bulls organization for not holding his hand day and night, there has to be some accountability from thomas to respect the organization that picked his ass on draft day.  if the kid had a brain on his shoulders, he should know that there is some entitlement to being a lottery pick, but if he can't put up quality play and be able to learn day in and day out, his job is in jeopardy.  if he can't work with the team around him, or if he becomes a clubhouse cancer, his job is in jeopardy.  if he doesn't know how to practice or take orders from those in charge, his job is in jeopardy.

how about his family? or his agents?  wasn't his uncle or someone from louisiana moving in with him because he had never been away from home?  how about his agent that swipes a percentage of each of his paychecks, can these people hold his hand and show him how to play the game called life? if they can't, that probably means he's more of a jackass than we even know.

i think the bulls have made solid, if unspectacular, efforts to hold TT's hand.  they brought in AD to help him out his rookie year.  i guess it didn't help much?  when TT made those comments about the all-star game and getting paid last year, wasn't it the bulls that guided him to say the right things instead of leaving him hanging?  didn't the bulls pick up mike brown this year to help TT develop that god-awful running left-hand hook shot?  if anything, the bulls aren't communicating with TT on what his role is on this team.  or if they are, perhaps this jackass just doesn't care anymore?  what kind of coach does it take to tell a kid to take his 15 minutes a game and give everything he has into crashing the boards and freeing himself for putbacks and layups?  do you think sloan has a problem telling that to a milsap?  at some point, and i'm not saying the bulls have reached that point, but at some point, you toss your hands in the air and call it a loss.  if this TT kid, in year 2 of his rookie contract, and after not having earned a DAMNED thing, determines that he can 'skip' a practice or slough off during practice or games, then screw him.  drop his unlimited potential ass off at the train station with a one way ticket to E-Rob's house and tell him to flip off.  and once he develops AI talent, to come back and the bulls will be more than willing to put up with his type of BS 'bout practice', but until them, his unlimited potential and a bag of chips still equals a bag of chips.  unless they're salt and vinegar, in which case, slightly more than just a bag of chips.

sorry tyrus4prez.

by leeac on Mar 26, 2008 1:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

sorry
i meant pj brown and not AD.

by leeac on Mar 26, 2008 1:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

PJ Brown
had some warm and seemingly genuine things to say about his time mentoring Tyrus. He said these things in a recent interview, after being picked up by the Celtics.

This from the man who had nothing to say, absolutely nothing, about the Bulls organization at that time.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Mar 26, 2008 2:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This is what gives me hope about him.
We didn't have these problems last year.* He wasn't a lone dark spot on an otherwise bright and sunny team.

*If anyone mentions the dunk contest crap, then they're idiots and should just jab their fingers in their own eyes right now.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 26, 2008 3:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

with...
finger in eye, i'd like to point out TT's public handling of the all star festivites last year as Exhibit A of his ass-hole-osity.  for him to belittle the festivities with frank discussion of not giving a sh*t and just getting paid, made me wonder not only if the guy was a jagbag, but it made me wonder if perhaps he didn't even enjoy the game that earns him a living?  out of the hundreds of current nba players out there, there have to be AT LEAST a few dozen who don't give a crap about the game of basketball other than receiving the checks with all the zeros at the end.  and if this were the case, i'd have to think that TT would fall into that category.  a harsh indictment based on limited perception, and i'm willing to swallow it all if he could prove me wrong.

as far as pj brown's glowing comments on TT, if you could cite a link that would be great.  i've already fallen off the TT bandwagon, but any glimmers of hope appreciated.

by leeac on Mar 26, 2008 3:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

that's weird, my Exhibit A
is whenever someone uses the word 'jagbag'.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 26, 2008 3:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

there's a certain...
soothing connotation in order to be able to call someone a jagbag... and since it has no real meaning, i use it as a noun, verb and adjective to suit my own needs.  you should try it some time...

for instance:

"matt really jagbagged his assessment of tyrus' minutes."

"matt was a real jagbag in his response to some of the forum posts yesterday."

"matt must have been in a jagbag mood when he wrote his game preview."

see?  feeling better already... :)

by leeac on Mar 26, 2008 4:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Here, found it...
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=150203
"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Mar 26, 2008 3:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

sam smith frequently sez
a lot of players aren't into basketball on a love/fun/joy/whatever level, especially bigs, who were more or less forced into the sport.

Does anyone care about the dunk contest?

Chris Webber is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Mar 26, 2008 4:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Nobody cares about the dunk contest
Why do you think Lebron has never participated in it?  Is he a jagbag because of that?

by Big D on Mar 26, 2008 4:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Big D...
i don't think the opinion i'm offering is based on TT's participation or non-participation in the All Star festivies, but TT's lack of respect for the hand that feeds him.  I have yet to hear LeBron openly disrespect the NBA's All Star weekend or it's separate competitions, yet this kid can walk in and claim it's just another payday to him?  hey, think it, but don't say it.  that's where maturity comes into play, and lack of maturity can certainly lead to being perceived as an asshole.

and what exactly is your point big D?... because LeBron doesn't participate in a contest, does that give free reign for the other hundreds of NBA players to openly disrespect it?

by leeac on Mar 26, 2008 5:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Figured you'd be the first ___________
Blah. Thomas said he was going to donate the money to charity BEFORE he was fined. A reporter asked him if doing it for the money was better than being the first Bull to be in teh contest since 1990, better than hanging out with all-stars, etc. He said something like, "Look, man, I'm just doing it for the money."

SNAP!

SCANDAL!

THUG!!!!

Leeac, go jagbag yourself.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 26, 2008 5:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i
figure i should expect this type of reply from someone who includes disclaimers in his messages such as:

"*If anyone mentions the dunk contest crap, then they're idiots and should just jab their fingers in their own eyes right now."

i'm not sure where you get your information from, or how you came up with your attempt to "fill in" what you hope the question might have been from the reporters in order to elicit such a response from TT, but at best, it was a weak attempt.  then adding in the part about "SCANDAL!" "THUG!", i guess i'm not sure what your purpose was for that?  i love reading people's opinions on TT, but for some people, i think it gets a little too personal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2756552

The first Bulls player since Scottie Pippen in 1990 to participate in the event, Thomas was quoted in Tuesday's editions of the Tribune as saying: "I'm just going to go out there, get my check and call it a day."

When asked if being around some of the game's greats could be beneficial for a rookie, he responded, "I'm just into the free money. That's it. I'll just do whatever when I get out there."

http://www.insidehoops.com/tyrus-thomas-fined-020607.shtml

"The league office has chosen Tyrus to participate in one of its premiere All-Star events and that is an honor that should be accepted with humility," he continued. "I spoke to Tyrus this morning and am confident he understands that he made a mistake with his words and that he also understands the importance of representing the Bulls and the NBA in a positive way."

by leeac on Mar 26, 2008 5:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

it's a free world, and a great blog...
so i encourage you to form your own opinions on things such as TT's value (or lack of value) to this team.  but i hope you don't take it to heart when there are disagreements like this.  at the end of the day, the only reason we're here is because we're bulls fans.  disgruntled bulls fans.  i've been a TT fan since he was drafted, and i've been willing to overlook signs of his immaturity over the past couple years, but the skipping of practice really irked me.  maybe it didn't irk many of you from the response that i'm getting, but it irked me.  if i was on the fence, it pushed me over the edge.

in the work world, as many of you know, you come across jagbags once in awhile.  and if you have, you'll know that you don't want them working for you, nor do you want to work next to them.  people who are in it for themselves tend to bring the quality of work down along with the morale of the group. i hope i'm making some sense with this one.  you can carry someone like that for only so long, but after they've worn out their welcome, they need to go.  for some reason, that's how i perceive TT.  i hope that doesn't upset some of you too much that i think that way, but i'm sure it'll ruffle a few feathers.

bottom line is, that when you see me at the games, i'm still rooting for the same team you are.

by leeac on Mar 26, 2008 5:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Last year, I felt Skiles
was trying to haze him.  Stupid.  

I think the Bulls have completely missed the boat with Tyrus.  They've treated him like an effing army bootcamp recruit.  We don't have 100,000 chances to do it over with the next guy.  They get one chance, at best (or worst, depending on how they got there), per year to make it work with one guy.

by alec on Mar 26, 2008 2:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

bootcamp recruit?
  1. come to practice
  2. learn the offensive plays.
  3. learn the defensive plays.
  4. utilize what you have learned.
  5. go home and spend your millions.
if getting yanked out of a game for f*cking up is a boot camp, then perhaps you are right.  but if the kid can't learn, or refuses to learn in order to help the team, then why keep shooting yourself in the foot for him?  at this point, i'd take battier for thomas in an heartbeat.  

by leeac on Mar 26, 2008 2:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Alright.
So I went to far.  

What I was trying to say is the army HAS to treat everybody the same.  The Bulls don't, and shouldn't, but seem to anyway.

by alec on Mar 26, 2008 2:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yessir
that's one of my peeves too.

They don't have someone worth completely coddling like the Cavs do with LeBron, but they should see that they traded the 2nd overall pick for a guy, and since his success is more important he should be treated as more important.

The 'earn your way' doctrine isn't even followed regardless, so why pretend.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 26, 2008 2:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

mine too
either he's so hopeless emotionally (like at a J.R.  Smith level) that they should've never drafted him, or he at least needed a better environment than the one he's given.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 26, 2008 2:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

lol!
That is a good question.  One thing I'd say for sure is that it's too late for this coaching staff.  

I've heard a lot of people say, in effect, "WTF?  The guy's a pro.  He's making millions of dollars.  Get with the program!"

But I disagree.  I think Tyrus is a weird guy, and the team will have to go some distance to unlock his (I think, obviously great) physical potential.  How they do it, I don't know, but I think in order to do it, they'll have to be willing to be creative, and not just try to stuff him in the same box with every other player.  

Maybe I'm delusional, but something tells me Phil Jackson would have been able to come up with some unconventional way to wring the full potential out of Tyrus.

by alec on Mar 26, 2008 1:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

One thing I was thinking last night
while watching Drew have another great game, is that he really does seem like a different player than the one in Cleveland.  To some extent, he's still in that honeymoonish period (it was an unhappy honeymoon, though! - just trying to say the short time he's been here is not enough to say this will definitely last).  I was wondering how much of that does have to do with being told he's an essential part of the offense who will play significant minutes, and that's what it took for him to stay focused throughout the game.  I can totally see how playing with someone like Lebron it would be really easy to just coast along without being intensely interested in the game.  Tyrus might be the kind of player who needs that same thing - not necessarily a "you're the man" but a we-need-and-trust-you.  Obviously I don't know for sure anymore than anyone else, but when what has been tried has so obviously failed it seems obvious they should try something new.  
Maybe I'll take up hockey.

by wjb1492 on Mar 26, 2008 1:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Speaking of Drew...
for me, his play has completely taken power forward off the draft list.  He plays hard. He looks confident.  It looks like his team mates like him.  Hell, it even looks like the refs like him.  He looks like the best deal Paxson's made.  

by alec on Mar 26, 2008 1:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

starting to agree
He's averaging 16/10 in the month of March, shooting 50% from the field and 84% from the line in 33 mins/gm.  That may not be Boozer or Brand- like numbers, but for his salary that's damn good production.  Imagine if we actually had a coach and an offensive system in place that ran some plays for him to get a couple easy buckets each game - that would put him, at least statistically, on the same level as Gasol, Brand, etc.

by kig on Mar 26, 2008 1:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

you don't watch the games, either...
they run all kinds of plays for him...
Tyrus Thomas 2006-2008. R.I.P. We hardly knew ya...

by bullshooter on Mar 26, 2008 1:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i'll fess up to that
it's been tough to be motivated to sit at the computer late at night finding a feed, being an out-of-towner.  

by kig on Mar 26, 2008 2:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He's good, not great
They do run lots of plays through and for him, but he's not going to be able to dominate like yesterday all the time.  He is a slightly above average power forward:  Good enough to make rookies and inferior players look bad, but not good enough to hang with the top 10-12 PFs in the league.  He (like Tyrus) also problems staying focused through the course of an entire game (especially on defense), which is why he has never averaged more than 30 minutes a game in his career.  This is also why he has been traded 3 times.  But, I do think that 15/9/1 a game on this dysfunctional team is definitely within his abilities.

by shoryuken on Mar 26, 2008 2:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's those flashes of actual
potential that get you, though.

He sure dominated his matchup with Boozer.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Mar 26, 2008 2:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i've thought
that we didn't need someone great.  just serviceable, which i think drew is.  i think next the upgrade has to be at either of the guard positions.
"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Mar 26, 2008 1:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

if we're drafting late lottery
I guess, sure. Gooden's a competent power forward, and if the real need was low-post scorer in any form, he can at least do enough where it shuts up pundits.

But he's not going to do what he did against the Hawks every game (that's not being inconsistent, merely average), and he's a poor and mostly indifferent defender. So if they're relying on him 35+ minutes like he's been getting, they'll be bad, like they're being.

But he can be in a good frontcourt rotation, sure. One thing to note is that his contract may be more valuable than he himself is, so I can see him dealt even if he's 'liked' by the organization.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 26, 2008 2:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You know the season's down the tubes...
...when Matt willingly engages in draft talk. Bleurgh.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 26, 2008 2:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

heh
it's true. I'm starting to feel draft season...although I still see little point until the lottery.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 26, 2008 2:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not sure Donnie Walsh is any better
To me, no GM is more overrated than Walsh, who GMed the Pacers for 20 years and never landed a superstar.  Also, no team has been worse at drafting than the Pacers ( draft history  He hasn't drafted a starter since 1998, or an all-star since 1988).  There's a reason they had just one Finals appearance and no titles in his tenure.

The thing I like about Paxson is he's shown the ability to change his philosophies, like he did when drafting Tyrus and Thabo when the team lacked athleticism.  And unlike crappier GMs, he has taken responsibility for the state of the team.

I'd give Pax another year to work things out.  He's got to get some balls this offseason though, this team needs some shakin' up.

by YaoPau on Mar 26, 2008 12:04 PM CDT   0 recs

uh
between the Pacers' consistent success, the Bulls, and drafting Reggie Miller, I find it hard to use anything you just put in the comment box against Walsh.

I'm all for pooh-poohing Walsh as a has-been, but his resume is pretty good.

Chris Webber is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Mar 26, 2008 12:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Depends on what you are grading
Consistently fielding the third best team is nice and probably profitable, but is that what fans are after?  One finals appearance in 24 isn't really that impressive.
Tyrus Thomas 2006-2008. R.I.P. We hardly knew ya...

by bullshooter on Mar 26, 2008 1:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

it's not super impressive
I don't know what kind of financial restrictions Walsh was under, or any deals/free agents he passed on. I doubt Indiana had the resources to sign Shaq to a ten year deal.
Chris Webber is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Mar 26, 2008 2:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The big knock on Walsh here (in Indy)
Was that he gave up control when he shouldn't have.     He was burned out, his granddaughter passed away, and he was getting older.  So he started delegating.

This led to things like following Isaiah Thomas' advice (since he was the coach) in drafting Fred Jones instead of Tayshaun Prince (who was favored by Walsh and the entire scouting department).  That's the story I've heard here repeatedly anyway.

Bird came in to slowly take over the reigns and, in the meantime, Walsh got it together and concluded he didn't really want to retire.

So the Pacers had a choice between a guy who's got an expiring contract (Walsh), and a guy they'd picked as the long-term replacement (Bird), who is also under contract for the next two years anyway.

by Sports2 on Mar 26, 2008 2:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Players hiring outside help isn't unusual.
That's why David Thorpe has a job. But okay... during the season?

That's why I'm against finding a coach based on what "system" they run. The Bulls need coaches that can develop these guys into great individual talents, not pound them into some mold to fit a system. If they do that for three years, and these guys develop, but it becomes obvious the coach isn't a great X's and O's guy, then you have these good-to-great players entering their prime to entice another coach.

These players simply aren't good enough right now to be a great team. However, with the draft pick this year, they'll have four guys selected 4th, 7th, 9th & 8/9/10 all under the age of 24 who will all (hopefully) have real potential. Thomas, Noah and Deng are good players RIGHT NOW, and all have the potential, to varying degrees, to be well above-average, even great players. I'm putting very little stock into evaluating any of the players based on this season. (except, of course, Noah since that's all we have for info.)

I was willing to let Paxson go for this season and basically blame it all on Wallace and then Boylan, but the fact that he's let this farce continue so long and hasn't (apparently) privately met with players to let them know what's going on, I have my doubts. My guess now is that the Bulls hire some re-tread for cheap, draft Tyler Hansbrough or Kevin Love, trade Thomas for Shane Battier, lose Gordon because they won't pay him enough, lose Deng because he doesn't want to be there and suck for the next five years with no hope.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 26, 2008 12:10 PM CDT   0 recs

Absolutely agree.
MJ put Tim Grover on the map.  The stories circulating at the time said MJ, Scottie and Horace used to work with Grover everyday they were home during the season.

I think, rather than showing any deficiency on the part of the Bulls, it shows championship caliber desire on the part of Deng and Noah.

Every ambitious person in a competitive field goes outside his/her company for special assistance.

If anything, I'm more disappointed in the rest of the players for NOT seeking outside help.

by alec on Mar 26, 2008 12:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Most Damning Information Yet
If the podcast is true and Noah and Deng had to hire outside help, this is the most embarrassing revelation about the Paxson regime yet.  This team leads the league in attendance and has yet to pay the luxury tax but cannot find a way to hire a staff that can break down tape and help players improve.

In five years, we haven't seen any development in BG's game (still has a poor handle) or Deng's (shot has regressed, while he still hasn't shown improved strength or post-up ability).  Tyrus is a mess as the clip from his LSU tournament run makes clear.

In the absence of lucking into a superstar, teams like the Bulls count on incremental progression from season to season.  If Paxson cannot identify a staff that can foster an environment that encourages such a progression, he needs to go immediately before the team hires a new coach.

by Gene Banks on Mar 26, 2008 12:14 PM CDT   0 recs

Andrew Bogut
works with his personal coach from  Australia at his own expense all year long.  Getting outside help isn't unusual.

by KT on Mar 26, 2008 12:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The idea of outside help doesnt' bother me
so much, but the idea that there is little to no tape break down does.  

I remember during one of the Celtics games they showed Doc Rivers discussing something Rondo had done with him during a TO, and Rondo asking whether it was good or bad - and the broadcast team commented on that beinga great example of teaching, and that Rondo felt comfortable asking for clarification to be sure he understood.  Then there were the Bulls' timeouts full of either the Boylan angry cold shoulder treatment or the rah-rah, energy and enthusiasm and heart stuff, and I rarely see one of the coaches for the Bulls going over to talk with someone after they get pulled from the game.  It bothered me even in the game setting, but to think that the lack of teaching in-game is not even being offset by good film review sessions is infuriating.  Even if they have guys who are several years into the league, the team overall is still the youngest in the nba.

Especially with the guys making the same mistakes over and over in losing 4th quarter leads, you'd think the team would be going over game tape - does Boylan think he doesn't need to because the players comment on not doing the same things in the 4th?  Knowing the team is playing differently is so completely not the same as seeing exactly what they're doing wrong and talking through what decisions would have been better.

Sorry I'm ranting.  That podcast was just so depressing, and I didn't think the season could get any more depressing than it already was.

Maybe I'll take up hockey.

by wjb1492 on Mar 26, 2008 1:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah
I didn't write it up quite the way I should have.  I can imagine going outside for help in general, but having to go outside to get game tape and break it down?  What's up with that?

I do question to what extent we're talking about there.  I do recall reading that they had regular film sessions under Skiles, so perhaps this is a Boylan "innovation".  On the other hand, Noah having to actually ask for a playbook was probably from when Skiles was still around.

Perhaps some of these things have more merit than others, but when I look at the whole mess I have a hard time thinking it's not pretty damning.

by Sports2 on Mar 26, 2008 1:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

In an article this summer
on Ben Gordon, he was studying film  given to him by the film guys, film he asked for.  Truehoop has mentioned that the Bulls subscribe to the state of the art film service that Henry Abbott loves, and was one of the first teams to do so.

So perhaps the issue is what the players want, not the lack of the film study.

From the discussion of this at RealGM, it's clear Doug is hearing these things not from the players, but from other parties.  Things get lost in translation.

by KT on Mar 26, 2008 2:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bulls Inc had a 30+ million net profit last year
according to Forbes.  If this "little to no tape" stuff is true it's a major debacle that should be plastered all over ESPN, NBA TV, Comcast Sportsnet.  

My $20 operation has video tape.  WTF!

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 26, 2008 2:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i'm willing to give pax one more year
but jeez.  while it's not unusual to get outside help, all those factors are ridiculous.  as it is, they took until mid-season to finally hire a big man coach which they've been lacking for years.

the whole thing with tyrus is depressing.. it totally sounds as if he has given up.  yes there are plenty of minutes for him, but he can't just get on the floor if his coach insists on going small for the entire 4th quarter each game.  as for tyrus being rubbed the wrong way, while it may seem like he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on, when he's given more minutes, he has done pretty well, as exhibited in the denver game among others.  he's just been jerked around.  maybe with a new coach there can be resurrection for tyrus the way it worked for thabo.

ugh.  can't wait for this season to be over.. can only hope for a better next one.

"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Mar 26, 2008 12:48 PM CDT   0 recs

I see you've gone all
ee cummings on us.  This team has so exhausted you that you can no longer press the caps key?

by alec on Mar 26, 2008 1:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

lol
i assume you've read my other posts, but many times i do not use caps.  i try to use proper grammar, but only sometimes i use caps.  it's weird, sometimes i get in a mode where i decide to type with proper capitalization, but typically i don't. :P
"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Mar 26, 2008 1:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

On one hand,
this franchise's unraveling began with the acquisition of Ben Wallace. Wallace was the proverbial bad apple.To justify obtaining him, the Bulls had to let go Chandler (who had his own flaws, granted). So obtaining Wallace was the beginning of the end.

But a crucial next step in the decline was the acquisition of Griffin at the expense of athleticism/skill.

The other blows to viability have received countless mentions (poor negotiating with BG/Deng being just one).

Bottom line is that hindsight is 20/20, but on the other hand, GM's like Buford and Colangelo (when he was running the Suns) simply don't make mistakes like these. Or else, like Mullins or Colangelo (the one in Toronto) or the Trailblazers' GM (forgetting his name), they make enough good decisions that they avoid having failing seasons--and that's what this is.

I'm on the fence regarding whether Pax should stay or go right now, but if he is fired this off-season, this would not be unfair. It's not as if he wasn't given a chance.

By the way, he also waited too long to jettison Wallace and Grif after their disgraceful season.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Mar 26, 2008 2:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

One other note from the podcast . . .
Apparently the Bulls are doing virtually no film study in practice.  That's why Deng and Noah hired outside people to help them with that.  I don't know what they're actually doing in practice, but they sure aren't working much with Noah.  In fact, Doug quotes Ben Wallace, of all people, saying "It's a crime what they've done to Noah."

by Big D on Mar 26, 2008 1:09 PM CDT   0 recs

Boylan is working on
Building relationships and teaching Kirk Hinrich on how to be a better leader, not to mention film study on how his lineups couldve worked if such-and-such happened, followed by a discussion on how the last talk with paxson pushed him one step forward on the path of losing the interim title.
Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Mar 26, 2008 1:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, um, with all due respect to
"Doug,"  whomever he may be, that sounded like a bunch of titillating, sensationalist speculation to me.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Mar 26, 2008 1:29 PM CDT   0 recs