3-Guard Lineup

by Jaina on Mar 24, 2008 11:25 AM CDT Comment 29 comments

[ed. note: from the diaries. Kudos to Sam Smith for being the first beat coverage that made the connection between small lineups and getting pounded in 4th quarters. Looks like it happened again Saturday, a game I happily missed. -Matt]

The Tribune has an article here about the pathetic state of the bulls.

One sentence that really got me was this:

With the Bulls then playing three guards -- a tactic former coach Scott Skiles frequently employed effectively down the stretch and for which he was applauded -- the Pacers grabbed three straight offensive rebounds with the Bulls trying to come from behind.

Whoever applauded Skiles for the 3-guard lineup? I've hated it from day 1. And basically for the same reason they name - lacking in rebounding. Not to mention putting short people on much taller people (Kirk on Tracy McGrady still makes me shudder) and being totally outmatched playing defense.

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Duhon

said something similiar to "with Boylan you get basically the same thing as Skiles"

but he stop short of saying "without a brain"

by exult463 on Mar 23, 2008 10:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Didnt skiles use 3 guard lineup

To maximize peremeter offense and defense? If you have a lead and want to keep it, it might be best to have hinrich duhon (the bulls two best perimeter shooters at the time of skiles) while have ben gordon (the best 3 point shooter hands down on the team) along with nocioni ( a good help/wandering defender, and a big guy with a decent 3 pt shot) or deng (a good mid range shooter with strong moves to the basket) along with a strong center...which skiles never had (or used...noah)

Though its harder to get rebounds using this lineup, the perimeter defenders can keep the other team from shooting threes (which cut down leads and boost morale at a very high rate) and force them to drive inside. So long as no one fouls, this should slow the advance of the other team, though not stop it. At the same time, the three guards make for offense from the perimeter (four corners play?) which can help increase leads.

In other words, the other team gets a 2, we get a 3, the other team gets another 2, we get another 3...we might not hit all of our threes, but the other team wont get any 3s for themselves so though it doesnt completely eliminate the threat of a comeback, it does a good job of slowing any offense charge the other team could have.

OF course skiles was the kind of guy who wouldnt hesitate to call timeout and pull some players when the players werent executing. Plus had terrific inbound plays. Boylan, is an idiot.

Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Mar 23, 2008 11:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I never really found it to be that effective

to me, it's more of a gambling lineup than a serious lineup. You only get one shot on the offensive end because of the lack of rebounding...and it's a low percentage shot (a long jumper). On defense, they can either back you down or pass it in the post. Shoot over one of the shorter guys or grab the rebound again if they miss. All in all, it's just bad. Maybe if you're down by 10 with 40 seconds to go you can use this risky lineup to chuck 3s...but I don't see how anyone can rely on this to be the go-to lineup in the 4th quarter.

by Parrotman on Mar 24, 2008 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Indeed

But i think that can be said about alot of lineups, about them being a gamble i mean. Of course the weaknesses are there, however in the case of getting backed down, it just goes to, you get a two, ill get a three. Also im speaking sort of hypothetical rather then actual, so ideally this is how i think the offense is designed to work, its up to the players to play hard nosed defense and get good shots to knock them down.

Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2008 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the other problem

about your reasoning, which maybe is correct, but isn't effective for our team, is that our 2 best perimeter defenders.. in your scenario at least (i'd put sefolosha, not duhon in this.. in which case the 3 guard lineup isn't THAT bad), are tiny and while their defense may be good, it's not going to prevent, say 6'9 dunleavy, or 6'8 mcgrady from just shooting over them, even with outstretched arms.

if the 3 guard lineup has either sefolosha or hughes (or both) it's not that bad (in boylan's defense, because iirc hughes was the 3rd guard), but i've noticed it blowing games more than helping.

"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Mar 24, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was considering the time

When skiles was using this lineup, so i used duhon because thabo was curled up in fetal position somewhere on the bench. But yes, one of the good things i thought with thabo emerging would be the 3 guard lineup wouldnt look so gay, and some of the disadvantages would be hidden with a guy like thabo. Also judging by how thabo has played lately his 3 pt jumper is starting to look decent now. Though i dont think hell be a sharpshooter, he can hit that shot perhaps better then deng, meaning you could put deng on the bench. In other words if this lineup was used now it would be Gordon, Hinrich, Thabo, Noch, and Noah. Gordon, Hinrich and Noch would be our main perimeter threats, while Thabo would be someone who would need to be guarded, and noah is a strong finisher at the rim. For the defense, even a zone would have a hard time keeping up if the bulls played the way they did last year, lots of ball movement.

Defensively this would also be good, Hinrich and Thabo are our best two perimeter defenders, and gordon though is knocked for his defense, stil can be an able defender, and offer help (hes quick). Noch can be annoying on defense (which is good) and noah is intense enough to not let anything go easy in the paint.

Hypothetically it seems pretty good huh, problem is the bulls would have to play like they did last year..

Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

true too

but i mean, that's part of the reason i hated it so much when skiles used it.. i hated the 6'3 and under crowd. thabo can truly play a little bit of 3... and hughes can do in a pinch. but yes.. if you've read my other posts i'm in favor of getting deng a bit of rest, whether it be by noc or thabo. the guy played 3 full 2nd halves out of 5 games this past week as well as 20 minutes straight in a blowout. ridiculous.

but yes. i think all hope is lost for this season, anyways...

"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Mar 24, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yea

Deng plays alot of minutes, with teh players on that bench you could figure out somway to rest deng and not destroy the lineups. I mean rest him at the end of the third and begining of the 4th so you still have him at crucial moments of the game. Thabo can hit the midrange shot fairly well, and hughes is a good slasher (supposedly, havent seen much of it yet though) and Thabo can slash some (not that great due to lack of power)a nd hughes has a decent midrange shot (just horrible shot selection, and a bit trigger happy) those two in at the same time can make up for what deng brings for just a little bit.

Then you have noch who can give you boards and "floor spacing", boylan has alot more options then skiles did and i dont think he sees it. Thats stupid.

I wouldnt use hughes for a 3 guard lineup by the way, sure he gives u defense, but him and ben gordon are more trigger happy. And having those two with kirk hinrich, you can see the chemistry disapear mainly cuz hughes has developed a habit of bringing the ball up and being trigger happy. Yet boylan has gone to that 3 guard more then with thabo hinrich and gordon.

Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

most often

the lineup was used when skiles wanted to ignite the offense, not keep a lead. and it wasn't effective.

by Jaina on Mar 24, 2008 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh

I was speaking in hypothetical, meaning this is what i feel COULD be the advangage of that lineup. The guards on the bulls at the time of skiles were all fairly good shooters (yes even duh)so i just pointed out what the advantage of the lineup could be. You are right though, skiles usually used it to ignite some instant offense...the big difference with skiles and boylans lineups had to do with skiles had some success with his lineups, while boylans lineups never seem to work.

Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

i mean i see your point. didn't mean to just shoot you down completely. but i remember either reading or hearing that quote from skiles about it "igniting the offense" (which i disagreed with). i hated the lineup when skiles used it, but skiles usually at least had a purpose with his lineups (though some were questionable), and his substitution patterns were far better than boylan's.

"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Mar 24, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I think skiles had a reason for everything, i mean sure we hated his decisions alot of times, and he didnt use the rooks as much as he could, and relied on his veterans too, but i mean you could understand WHY he did things, there was a logic behind them. I mean when he was fired we were blown out by teams like the rockets, you know, GOOD teams. The pacers and a Depleted Wizards team blew us out with boylan at the helm. Skiles was harsh and he didnt hide the fact, boylan shows the media he is a players best friend and then in the locker room rears an ugly head.

The only good i think boylan did was save thabo from self destruction, and i am glad for that. But i dont understand anything he does or say, and he throws lineups in there that my little brother would use in 2k8 only because those are his favorite players. Skiles was always talking to himself eyeing the situation calling timeouts and usually they had some affect. Boylan calls time outs and takes out the players that are doing something effective. Sorry..this turned into a "boylan sucks" rant.

Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

To some extent, this

did work; the Bulls were at the top of the league in 3-point percentage with their drive-and-kick, motion offense.

Yet weren't they also known for their offensive rebounding?

Their success in the past 3 seasons has shown that this can work, but only if everyone buys in and puts in the effort and blah blah blah (this has been repeated so much that it sounds like the pledge of allegiance must sound to a 2nd grader).

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Mar 24, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm actually glad

we lost, I'd rather us drop below Indiana for the ping pong balls at this point.....plus seal any deal than Jim Boylan might come back....

So let's continue the losses.

This is the most disappointing Bulls season in my lifetime, I want it to end now.

by majoyenrac on Mar 24, 2008 8:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It just seems to get worse

I actually watched the Indiana game. Once again, a new low was breached.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 24, 2008 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not the 3 guards, it's the 1 big man

I don't remember Skiles regularly using three guards last year, but evidently it's true. But that's not the problem, because Boylan hasn't used many three guard lineups outside the last two games.

The problem has been his use of one-big-man lineups, which are currently the 3rd, 4th, and 9th most frequent lineups Gooden has played in since the trade. There are some ugly lineups on that page. (And why is Boylan against a Hinrich-[Guard]-Nocioni-Gooden-[Bigman] lineup? Seems like a natural play...)

by YaoPau on Mar 24, 2008 12:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Your One big stats

demonstrate that the Bulls are more successful with Tyrus on the court in these situations. His presence significantly reduces the opponents abilty to penetrate and take closer shots. TT's quickness, atheticism and leaping ability enables him to cover larger areas of the court as a help defender and recover faster when he makes a defensive mistake or gets caught in a pick, unlike Gordon, Deng, Kirk and others. There was a reason he was named defensive player of the year as a freshman at LSU.

Unfortunately, the Bulls brass seem to focus more on his occasional lapses then on his sometimes brilliant defensive skills.

by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 24, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've never seen Gooden used so much as a C

In his entire NBA career, and I think there was good reason for that. He's got nice talent and all, but even in Cleveland they preferred Varejao for late-game situations over Gooden, he simply is just an idiot on the defensive side and makes bad mistakes. Obviously this team has problems protecting late leads, and it's been apparent that they simply can't stop anyone from getting into the lane. Why wouldn't they put their best big men(Thomas and Noah) on the floor, who would no doubt intimidate or at least alter a few shots? I don't want to see Gooden as a 5 next year, because he has "post moves." and his improved numbers since the trade.

Dickey Simpkins>Ben Wallace

by Ozzie Montana on Mar 24, 2008 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gooden isn't an idiot

on defense. He just isn't athletic enough to make up for the disadvatage of someone his size being forced into the center position against actual centers. He is being forced to play out of position and then being criticized for it which isn't fair. I do think Thomas would be better there as a guy playing out of position simply because he does have the athleticism and reach to perhaps offset the disadvantage in size. In either case, why play guys out of position in the first place? It isn't working for us and we obviously don't have a guy like Dirk or whoever on teams that do make the best out of mismatches. We are not very good on the mismatch and are usually on the losing end more often than not.

by cranscape on Mar 24, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree Tyrus should be playing more center, but

since when is Gooden not athletic enough to play center? He was picked 3rd overall for his athletic ability alone... one of the most athletic big men in the NBA.

Gooden's problem on defense is the same as Noah's problem - they're both mediocre help defenders. One on one though, I kinda like how Gooden defends.

by YaoPau on Mar 24, 2008 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

In his regular position I don't

really have a problem with Gooden, but I still don't think he has enough above and beyond that to offset his size in the center position down the stretch. He usually plays a lot of minutes and by the 4th quarter being the tallest guy out there with a team of midgets to back you up and expected to be the primary rebounder and defend against their biggest guy...I am just not seeing that athleticism you speak of at that point.

by cranscape on Mar 24, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll admit that the 3-guard wasn't the most

effective lineup on the court, but come on, it helped alot in some games.

For instance, It helped a little bit in this game. It's just that some of you guys read Matt's thoughts and take it as your own.

"to the children: Fuck the Bulls." - Matt

by NittanyBull on Mar 24, 2008 2:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

i hated

the 3 guard lineup before i ever started reading this site.

also, that game... kirk didn't miss a shot in the 4th for 11 pts. gordon scored 12 in the 4th. duhon missed his only shot, predictably (he did have more rebounds in the quarter than wallace did, however). but how usual it is that those two are going to combine for 23 pts in a quarter?

plus we were playing the heat, who suck. and i certainly wasn't saying the 3 guard lineup sucks all the time. that was probably one of the few instances where skiles could get away with it, because their dominant player (wade) is a 2, and their 3s (kapono/posey?) aren't that great.

"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Mar 24, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't you just describe what happens

when the 3-guard system actually works(running the floor, being offensive-minded)?

And I'm sorry if you thought my post was directed towards you, because it wasn't. I believe it when you say that you never liked it(and rightfully so, it sucked[and still sucks] 90% of the time).

That was Game 3 of the playoffs, and it had me peeing my pants from the excitement, even if it was the "White Hot" Heat.

"to the children: Fuck the Bulls." - Matt

by NittanyBull on Mar 24, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well yes

i described it the way it's supposed to work, and it did work there.

but i think my point with that reasoning is to show how much stuff has to go right for it to actually be effective. it can be ok if we're actually shooting well, and against a lineup that won't get destroyed by it (like using it in my example above where hinrich had to guard mcgrady). especially with how poorly we've shot over this season, i do not want to see it. ever. and my other point was that duhon didn't really contribute much, so we could have easily had another bigger player in there.

it's not that bad if the third guard is thabo, but when it was duhon, gordon, and hinrich, it made my eyes want to bleed.

"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Mar 24, 2008 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jerry Reinsdorf

should step down as Chairman because he selected John Paxson. Paxson should step down as GM just because he is John Paxson and he selected Boylan. Boylan should step down as coach because he continues to play 3-guard lineups and loses. The team should forfit the last X games by not showing up the rest of the season.

by exult463 on Mar 24, 2008 4:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Stepping Down

Sounds like an Irish dance troop with all this stepping. Maybe we can replace the entire team with the cast of Riverdance. Jamesons all around, and we can all puke in the United Center parking lot like the good old days.

by Cannoli on Mar 24, 2008 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Like everything else about this bulls team

the 3-guard lineup has been scouted and teams know how to attack it. They go bigger and get patient on offense. The bulls need to adapt since their talent isn't enough to overwhelm other teams. IMHO, the bulls need to go back to the attacking style of the early 90's with a longer lineup of Hinrich, Thabo, Deng, TT and Noah. Attack and trap and run out.

(I promise I'll only say this a few more times....)

Tyrus Thomas 2006-2008. R.I.P. We hardly knew ya...

by bullshooter on Mar 24, 2008 10:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Say it Again Bullshooter

1000 times or till you're blue in the face. Shout it from the rooftops or the mountain tops.
This coaching staff have minds like a steel trap.....always closed.

Either their incompetence is beyond measure or they never watch their own game tapes. Nothing that makes sense seems to penetrate these boobs unlike the Bulls opponents who penetrate at will against their matador defenses, especially when they go small.

by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 24, 2008 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs