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8th's not enough

Blogabull_s_tiny by your friendly BullsBlogger on in News

After a pleasantly surprising 2-2 stretch that could've easily gone 0-4, the Bulls are now only a half-game out of the 8th playoff seed.

But unfortunately during that time the Sixers have stayed hot, and as a 7th seed they're now 4.5 games ahead entering into Friday's game.

And looking at the differences between when the Bulls play Boston and when they play the Pistons, the 7th seed is a much much better matchup. Not that I think Boston is that much better than the Pistons, but they're certainly less likely to ease up or implode, two staples of the 'talk like we've won 4 titles' Pistons.

I don't think the Bulls have a chance to beat either in a 7 game series, as to do so they'd have a very small margin for error, and that margin is obliterated by Boylan. However I'd certainly feel better watching a competitive and likely animosity-filled series against Detroit, whereas the Bulls seem willing to roll over against Boston. Sure, it's about winning, so neither matchup is appealing, but if I'm going to watch a quick playoff exit I'd at least want it to be fun. And if the Bulls get to that 7th seed we can trick ourselves into believing the regular season record against the Pistons actually means something...

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if only we swept the Pistons this regular season
3-1 isn't going to cut it ... if it was 4-0, we actually would have a shot at a Golden State-like upset.

Two games each against Philly and Atlanta, plus one against New Jersey this month.

Schedule certainly gives us an opportunity to decide if we really want to make the playoffs or not.

by Orange Juice on Mar 14, 2008 2:23 AM CDT   0 recs

10 games remaining against current East
playoff teams.  6 of the 10 are home games or "must win" games really.

I'd rather make the playoffs than miss them.  It's more games to evaluate player development.  I wouldn't mind meeting Boston or Detroit in a 7 game series.  Could we win?  Yes, but the odds say it's unlikely.  I would just want to wear these teams down and make them have to respect us.  Taking two games in the series would be good.  Taking one game on the opponents home floor would be huge.

Since we are really retooling for next season, why wouldn't some playoff experience help us instead of hurting us?

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 14, 2008 9:56 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Remaining Games
They definitely have some opportunities to win games, but they've got some tough ones in between. Hopefully, after they lose to Boston, San Antonio, New Orleans, etc. they'll be able to come right back and play hard.

by BarryLird on Mar 14, 2008 5:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd rather watch the Draft Lottery.
Making time and effort just to watch the Bulls suck does not appeal to me. I'd rather them have a chance at drafting a young shooter to complement the young front line.

If I thought they had a chance to win, that'd be different. However, as stated, I don't believe Boylan gives them any chance. Plus, if they do win, I fear that Boylan would keep his job.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 8:51 AM CDT   0 recs

I'd rather...
... watch the team make the playoffs and gain valuable experience.

Playing the number one or two seed is perfect too. At least we'll be able to see how far we are out of it, and adress our needs in the off season (through trades and free agency).

The lottery sucks, always has. We won't get a much lower pick than if we finish in the 8th spot (probably one position higher than if we were in the lottery anyway), and the players that stick around will all feel like the team regressed... Which they did, but at least we have an opportunity to salvage some of this and build some momentum into next year... Even if we get blown out by Boston or Detroit in the first round.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 9:38 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Last year's play-off experience
sure paid big dividends this season....

I'm with Tyger on this one.  There are some players who should be there in the mid-lottery who would be big upgrades for the Bulls.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 9:55 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

who?
Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 14, 2008 10:55 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

don't tempt the draftniks
there's always a clear upgrade in the draft. ALWAYS.
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Mar 14, 2008 11:04 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

haha
There is always the next Chris Duhon

by BarryLird on Mar 14, 2008 5:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think it's a win-win situation
If you make the playoffs, you get to see how your players react and then you can make a more informed decision as to who should stay and get the big money. Make or break time for Deng and Gordon.

If you don't make the playoffs, chances are you're getting a decent lottery pick and you might even get a discount on the two aforementioned players.

I agree with what you are saying about the matchups tho. Of the eastern conference teams played so far, Boston has gone out of their way to bitch slap the Bulls. And for whatever reason, it's not just the 'Big 3' from the Celtics that are killing them. It's been guys like Rajon Rondo, Glen Davis, and Perkins who have been flat out playing the Bulls. A 4 game sweep is the least wanted of all the scenarios because it leaves you with a bad taste from the prior season and far more questions than answers.

by RogersPark Kris on Mar 14, 2008 10:06 AM CDT   0 recs

I think it's more important
to (like you said) see more of Deng, Gordon, etc...not only for the Bulls benefit but a playoff run could hopefully salvage some trade value with the guys on this team.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 14, 2008 10:24 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

also true
Driving their value up works if it's to trade them.

by California Al on Mar 14, 2008 10:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Luol Deng is the biggest disappointment
on the team.  He's not enough of an athlete to dominate at his position.  I actually think the team plays better with Thabo at the 3.

If you have a star at small forward he can suck defenders away from both your perimeter AND post players, and make life easier for both.  If your small forward is merely a decent complementary player (such as Deng is), the best you can do as a team is garner half the potential match-up advantage that comes from either a great back court or front court player.

Deng is the first player I've be looking to replace on this team.  Merely adequate players at the other positions are much a smaller drag on overall team greatness than a merely adequate player at the 3.  The Bulls desperately need a match-up nightmare at the 3.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 10:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Deng has been hurt...
... most of the year. He was a stud last year, and he'll be a stud again in the futue. The Bulls would be stupid to trade him for anything less than a great player in return.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 10:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

A stud?
Sure he had a really nice 18 ft jumper and occasionally made a nice cut off of the ball and played pretty good defense.  But I wouldn't call him a stud.
Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 14, 2008 10:59 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Deng...
... can shoot from the outside and also slash. He has the ability (when he isn't hurt) to create his own shot. He's very young, has good size, plays solid defense, and was improving at a good pace before he was sidetracked by injuries. Plus he has good basketball IQ.

Maybe stud isn't the best word to describe him for some, that's of course subjective, but I don't see how anyone thinks we are better off without him starting everyday as a Bull unless we replace him a great player I guess.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 11:10 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Not a stud.
Never a stud.  Not an all-star.  Not a second team all-star.

Deng is a liability at his position.  The best case scanario at the 3 is that you can have one guy do two jobs.  If you don't have that one guy, you need two guys to do two jobs.  True, either way will work.  

Can that guy be Deng?  I have my doubts.  The only reason for optimism comes from the possibility that perhaps Deng's injury has slowed him down just that little bit more than his already lacking athleticism can be  compensated for by cleverness/movement/positioning--things at which we know Deng is above average.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 11:02 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What?
"The best case scanario at the 3 is that you can have one guy do two jobs.  If you don't have that one guy, you need two guys to do two jobs.  True, either way will work."  

I'd love to continue this conversation, but I can't even decipher what it is you are trying to say.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 11:17 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The way "spacing" works:
Imagine the players inhabiting semi-circular concentric rings, with the basket at the center.  The object is to create a "space" mismatch in one of the rings.  The most efficient way to create the mismatch is for it to be initiated by a player in one of the middle rings, as this would create space at both the inner and outer extremes.

This is how it was explained to me by the ANC coach (a top 10 USA HS boys team).  Seems pretty straightforward to me.  When you used to hear Skiles constantly harping on "spacing"--even though many here made fun of it--this is basically what he was talking about.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 11:27 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Alright...
It's official. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Deng (when healthy) spaces the floor more than any other Bull.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 11:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

How many double-teams
does he draw?  When was the last time he drew more than one defender to him?  Pretty much...never.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 11:35 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Seriously...
I don't want to debate this with you (somebody else please help me here), but Deng can shoot from the outside and slash to the basket. THAT more than anything creates space on the floor because his defender can't just hang back, crowd the rim, and help out on defensive double teams.

Understand?

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 11:38 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So you don't want spacing...
...just double-teaming? Spacing can be done without being double-teamed.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 11:40 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

tyger, I know you, of all people,
do not want me writing an entire encyclopedia when all I'm talking about is a very small, specific issue...creating an open shot for your team-mate by drawing away his defender.  Something Lu does not do well.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 12:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So we should cut him...
Because clearly he doesn't create spacing being an outside shooter AND a slasher.

You are right! We have those kinds of players in abundance! I finally see the light.

Thank you again for teaching us about spacing.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 12:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

But your whole point is much broader:
that Luol Deng is merely adequate. That's just blatantly and ridiculously false. Part of your reasoning is that he doesn't create mismatches to create spacing. Luol DOES create spacing so the other part would be he doesn't get double-teamed. Being double-teamed is not such an important part of basketball to get rid of the team's best player when he's merely 22. If he were 27/28/29, sure. Not at 22.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 2:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This is Alec's way...
...of getting around to saying the Bulls need to draft Tyler Hansbrough or Kevin Love.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 11:41 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Dear God...
Please let both of those players be gone by the time the Bulls draft.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 11:47 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Call me crazy
but I just don't think Pax would be interested in either of those guys.  I know it's pretty funny to joke about Paxson's fetish for the feisty overachiever, but both those guys will really be limited by their lack of athleticism, and I think Paxson sees this and is moving in another direction - in Noah, Tyrus and Thabo he demonstrated an understanding that as a team we need great athletes in addition to steady lunch pail types.  Because Tyrus hasn't yet demonstrated he can provide that kind of leap in talent (I won't comment on WHY), I would be surprised to see Pax draft either.

 

by Freethefro on Mar 14, 2008 12:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not even sure...
... either is coming out.

If they do however...

Obviously I agree that we don't need either player, but the one thing about the draft around the 12 spot is the GM could be tempted to draft the "best player available". Then we get into trade talk. Blah blah blah... This is why the whole lottery thing is scary to me.

Let's shoot for the playoffs and focus on free agents and trades. As far as I'm concerned we have too much undeveloped young talent already and we could probably package our draft pick into a trade and in the long run be no worse for the wear.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 12:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

save it for
The loser thread. I mean draft thread. Or Handsboroughgugh-watch!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 14, 2008 1:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's true.
I am an unabashed Hansbrough fan.  I've declared my Hansbrough love on the draft thread many times.  Would I be upset if he fell to the Bulls?  Not hardly.  I know many question his pro potential, but I'm not one of them.  I think his production will translate well to the next level.  Sorry, Matt, I know the rules.  No more draft talk here.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 1:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

TYLER HANSBROUGH =
MARK MADSEN version 2008!!!

This guy is just stronger than everyone in college.  In the pros, he's small forward at 6'9" 230.  My goodness, Luol Deng is the same size!!!

by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 14, 2008 10:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He's on the
cover of Sporting News magazine this week.

by sue369 on Mar 14, 2008 10:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Saying he does anything better than the current...
...Bulls isn't saying very much.  Other than we need a new bunch of Bulls.  There is NO WAY Luol Deng should be anybody's best player.  If he is, then your team is in trouble.  For example, look at our current Chicago Bulls.  TROUBLE!! And again, this guy is OUTSTANDING when the game is a blowout either way.  But when this game got close where was he??  NOWHERE to be found.  He had a lil' dunk and that was the ONLY shot he took in the last 9 minutes of the game until he launched that desperation shot at the end.

Deng is a nice complimentary piece but people should stop holding him up so high.  He's not a "great" player.

by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 14, 2008 10:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed.
I know it takes time and effort but leave the superficial analysis to the national writers. Look at Luol's December numbers. After his horrible start, he was clearly (nearly) back to "his old self" until he got injured. He'd be the first one I made sure stayed.

A stud? I don't know. Top quartile SF going forward, though, I'll agree.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 11:06 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Who would that be?
A match-up nightmare? Like Tayshaun Prince or Bruce Bowen? Or Rick Fox or Devean George or Lamar Odom or Antoine Walker...

Deng is far better than "merely adequate". You've asked people how to use "the numbers", they've told you, so do it.

Deng is arguably the team's best player; if he's "merely adequate" than this team is further away from anything than any of us thought.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 10:57 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I asked a question, though.
Who would that upgrade be?
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 11:07 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Upgrading one position may be easier
than upgrading two different positions.  It may be that upgrading a single high impact position would turn out to be just as difficult as upgrading two lower impact postions.  

However, if we get in the lottery, at least we have a chance at one superior player.  I have no problem in going  all out for draft position.

On our current roster, the only player who has a chance to fill the bill as "superior player" is Tyrus Thomas.  Opinion here seems to run about 9 to 1 to keep him at the 4, but if he could slide between 3 and 4 he would help the team immeasurably--more than any other player on the roster, by far.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 11:21 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So...
Are you are saying we should cut/trade Deng and move TT into the starting lineup in his place?

If so that's laughable, but I'll bite, who would we draft/trade for when he's gone?

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 11:29 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It was clearly the team's plan
early this season to develop Tyrus into a combo forward.  So I would say I'm not the only one who sees him as a huge plus if he could master more 3 skills.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 11:39 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure...
But who ever said it was the team's plan to develop TT so he could replace Deng?

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 11:41 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If you'll recall,
the preseason talk also involved moving Deng to the 2.

My impression was that neither of these moves called for a permanant switch, just an expansion of the roles of the two players.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 11:48 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Also mentioned at the time
was playing Ben Gordon at the point--which we've seen quite a bit of these past few games.  

This whole thing has basically been a season-long disaster, so many of plans management started out with had to be ditched...but there were plans for this team that I think at one time were quite sound.  A big part of this year's frustration comes from never getting the opportunity to impliment any of those plans.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 11:55 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Stop reading the blogs...
... and start watching the games.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 11:57 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Please,
don't simply cop to a tired insult when you back yourself into a corner.  It's less becoming than may realize.  

The Bulls had a plan.  Many things conspired against that plan, but as plans go, it wasn't entirely that bad.

They're in a tough position heading into this off season, partly because they never really got a chance to accomplish any of their goals for this season...and now it's just a year later.

by alec on Mar 14, 2008 12:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What corner?
You never even responded to your own argument that you think the Bulls can't exist with TT and Deng on the same team.

You started talking about high school basketball and Ben Gordon playing the point.

I wasn't trying to cop out, but merely suggesting that you actually start watching NBA basketball and stop rehashing old blog points.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 12:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 -5
Who cares what number you need to put by their name, or what position you think they should play. The point is that you think TT and Deng can't play on the same team yet both can guard 3 positions and cause completely different matchup problems on offense. Always a good problem for a coach to have.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 11:55 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thomas's athleticism allows that...
...trying to make other players better doesn't mean that others are automatically expendable. Making Thomas a better, more versatile player makes the team better. Duh.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 11:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Maybe, but I don't see it.
One good game by Gooden and three mediocre ones cements his spot as the starter at PF next year w/ Thomas shipped out.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 11:01 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldn't.
I'm saying Paxson would. A 25-12 game by Gooden with a few 14-8 games would increase Gooden's value. While I'd see it as an opportunity to get a better player somewhere else, Paxson would see it as evidence that he's the stud low-poster they've been wanting and that Thomas is expendable. My guess.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 11:09 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

don't be such a ninny
the only time TT has even been mentioned in trades was for Gasol, KG, or Kobe.  So if that's what trading him means, then I'm all for it.  Otherwise, don't get your panties in such a bunch...
Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 14, 2008 11:12 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Namecalling?
I'm telling Mrs. Jones.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 14, 2008 11:15 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Good post, but
I think you're leaving out one big negative in the first case which is the flip side of the second.  You could drive Deng and Gordon's price UP in the playoffs.  I would like to see all of the pieces evaluated on the 82 game season only.  A bad playoff experience isn't going to add a thing to next year, and a good one could cause a "things are not that bad" mindset.  I think that right now Pax has a very good picture of where the Bulls are and will act very differently than in the past two offseasons.

by California Al on Mar 14, 2008 10:29 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Dear God...
I hope he acts differently than in offseasons past.

We have pieces to make a good trade. For who I don't know (and that's really the thing).

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 10:42 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

c'mon, give the man his due
A big reason we're all here arguing about what the answer is is that Pax did a very good job.  Based on the progress of the past three years, I didn't hear the word "sucks" very often (btw Matt, any chance of banning that word?, and "in Pax we trust" was the mantra.  He and we thought we had a pretty good team that was competitive and gave its all, even if that all wasn't a title.  You don't think he's got the same 20/20 hindsight we all do?  I think BW ruined this team's mojo, and it remains to be seen what will spark a turnaround.  I'm expecting something dramatic and feel good about Pax's ability to grow into the job.

by California Al on Mar 14, 2008 1:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Totally agreed...
I think Pax does a fine job overall.

I was just saying that last we offseason we stood pat, and this offseason we should make some changes. That's all.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 14, 2008 1:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I still
feel like we match up well with Boston. I realize it hasnt shown the few times we've played them.

If we can shut down everyone else but the big three i think we win. The last game was a joke considering the refs.

Deng on Pierce has in the past favored us.

Kirk should be able to contain Rondo.

Gooden & Tryus should be able to compete with KG's numbers but they both gotta show up.
(Kg has always givin us problems)

Hughes and Sefo should be able to keep Allen in check.

I think the key for us is to stop all the other crap they got.  Posey, Cassel, Brown, Davis.

If Noah can protect the rim and shut down Perkins, Davis, Brown we have a great chance.

AS you can see though all these things need to happen in order for us to win. Total team effort needed here. If they play like they did against Utah we can beat anyone but they gotta wanna do it. Its that simple..

by Bulls4Ever on Mar 14, 2008 10:25 AM CDT   0 recs

One more game at home against Boston
We'll see how the officials call the game.  Thus far they have taken Hinrich out of two games very early which then led to Boston building a big lead.
The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 14, 2008 10:37 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Id
really like to see us put a whoopin on them in the final game. Stop the other guys and play the big three straight up. Ill take my chances....

by Bulls4Ever on Mar 14, 2008 11:24 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hinrich!
Hinrich takes himself out of those games. He's a great point-guard defender, but when he tries to match-up against Ray Allen or any of Boston's 2 guards, it's a tough mach-up for him, he's not very big. Plus, Rondo is playing like an all-star this year and he's got more size than most point guards. Mis-matchs = Fouls

by BarryLird on Mar 14, 2008 5:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I remember
the first time we played them we really did alright.

looking at the box score, gordon was 5-20 for 13 pts and a +- of -23 in 39 minutes.  duhon scored 1 pt in 14 minutes and thabo got 5 minutes with no points.

if thabo had been playing the way he has been, that game could have been turned around... gordon was obviously not effective and du was crappy as usual.

oh.. and tyrus had a DNP.

the 2nd game was bad, but the refs took out of this last one early and we gave up.

by Jaina on Mar 14, 2008 10:42 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thats
what im talking about. I really think if we're clicking we can take down Goliath.. Personally i think they are a bunch of hacks who get away with alot because of rep alone. If we get a better called game and are guys play to there potential we have a great shot..

by Bulls4Ever on Mar 14, 2008 11:26 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm pulling for playoffs
I've always felt that getting your team to the playoffs pays dividends. Setting that mindset (playoffs or bust) amongst a group is important. Plus, I think it would build cohesion amongst the few players we like/know will be around: Noah, Gooden, Thabo...I'll take the risk and throw Deng in there. People say there's no substitute for playoff experience, the atmosphere and hype, and I think it's true.
Plus, we don't need any more youngsters to "evaluate" (translation: leave on the bench).

by Old Skool Sloan on Mar 14, 2008 10:36 AM CDT   0 recs

Much agreed
I tell my friends every day that if the Bulls can get that 7th seed, then the season will be worth saving.

8th just means an early exit

by Option27 on Mar 14, 2008 10:43 AM CDT   0 recs