"I'm in control"

I don't know if you can say they quit

on two coaches, as much as they've quit on Scott Skiles twice. Duhon said right after Skiles got fired/quit that Boylan was exactly like Skiles. Why Paxson would replace a coach the team is not responding to with his protege is beyond my reasoning? I guess he thought they needed a different voice yelling at them, benching all the young guys and making weird substitutions. He was wrong.

by danger mouse on Mar 11, 2008 12:26 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Well said

and a hilarious p.s. I still like the emphasis on character, but don't think it's been reciprocal, and certainly don't like the myopic extremism it's been carried to. I will never understand the whole TyC deal and subsequent launching of JR. He is exactly what the Bulls need at times, and I'll be damned if I can figure out how JR doesn't even get a look, but Hughes steps in to starter's minutes.
Deng and Gordon are entitled to the minutes needed to max their value, whether it's for us or the free market. Noah and TT have to succeed to avert another rebuilding project. Kirk, Duh and Noc had well defined roles. How naive can the staff be to think that putting Hughes and Gooden anywhere higher than 8th and 9th in the rotation until they earn better would send anything but hostile signals to the very people you're criticising for "private agendas", effort, teamwork and all of that bullshit? Bonehead couldn't wait to send some of them to the bench. These are professionals, which in sports is interpreted as for the money. If the team doesn't appear to have their interests covered, they're put in the position of doing it themselves. From the behavior of Pax and Jerry on down, it hasn't appeared to be the case that being a "good" Bull is a very rewarding career goal.

by California Al on Mar 11, 2008 2:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

JR Smith is awful

You really need to leave this guy out of any of the Paxson talk.

JR Smith has clashed with every coach in his life.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 11, 2008 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

chandler traded for

Nothing is the point. A 7 foot young big is worth something. We got two top ten picks for curry but only a drain and pj brown for tyson.
Then to not turn browns expiring deal into something last year is frustrating. Im sure you could have packaged Smith with other assets and gotten something anything back. If you didn't want him on your team why trade for him in the first place?

by Blacknight23 on Mar 11, 2008 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It wasn't nothing, but it wasn't enough, imo.

He had played poorly the previous season after signing a big contract and that is never the right time to trade someone. However, Paxson "had to" because he had character clashes or whatever (along with a regression in production) with Skiles.

Had Memphis not been over-reaching, Brown should have gotten Gasol. The most reasonable trade rumored I saw was Brown, Tyrus Thomas + the draft pick/Noah. That was a fair offer a year ago. However, when you consider that all they really got back for Chandler was Brown, then the trade being Chandler + Tyrus + Noah for Gasol... that might have been too much.

I dunno. I still don't like that trade. If they were playing Thomas and Noah, and, ya know, actually getting these guys experience, I'd be fine with it. But if the choice was Joe Smith/Drew Gooden ahead of these guys or Tyson chandler, I know who I'd rather have.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 11, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DING!

Two posts in and we are already talking about Tyrus Thomas and his lack of playing time.

The posts on this blog are like a broken record.

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 11, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's going to be a broken record

until the coaching staff/management sees the very obvious point that is being beaten to death repeatedly in here.

by RogersPark Kris on Mar 11, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

chandler traded for

Nothing is the point. A 7 foot young big is worth something. We got two top ten picks for curry but only a drain and pj brown for tyson.
Then to not turn browns expiring deal into something last year is frustrating. Im sure you could have packaged Smith with other assets and gotten something anything back. If you didn't want him on your team why trade for him in the first place? Paxson is awful.

by Blacknight23 on Mar 11, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you

I was dittoing Matt's criticism of the intolerant attitude of staff and mgt towards attitudes. So he clashes with the coach? This is the NBA; managing prima donnas goes with the job. How many games have we lost over the past two years because when we needed height or 3's from the 2, our cupboard was bare? I like Pax, want him to stay and improve as GM, but I truly believe he followed the character thing down a dead-end path that f'd the team up good with that deal. If you want to defend the JR decision, you're only a couple of logical steps away from dumping TT.

by California Al on Mar 11, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't kid yourself

If you want to defend the JR decision, you're only a couple of logical steps away from dumping TT.

The JR Smith trade brought back another expiring contract. There was little chance JR Smith would even play for the Chicago Bulls last season seeing we already had solid contributions from the current roster of guards and an incoming draft pick in Thabo Sefolosha.

JR Smith was thrown away by the Hornets because they were committed to Chris Paul and Byron Scott. JR is a selfish player with questionable shot selection, high risk low reward defensive decision making, and uncertain future upside due for a new contract after this season. It's unclear if Denver will even offer him a contract. Chances are really bleak if the Nuggets miss the playoffs.

Tyrus is only in his second season in the NBA. If you think I'm a "few logical steps away from dumping" him you must not have watched or read much about JR Smtih's second season in the NBA. He believed he was entitled to be a starting shooting guard given a minimum of 15 shots per game.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 11, 2008 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think I said anything delusional about JR

To make my point, though, let's retool your statement. "Tyrus Thomas is a selfish player with questionable shot selection, high risk low reward defensive decision making, and uncertain future upside due for a new contract after next season. Its unclear if Chicago will even offer him a contract."

by California Al on Mar 11, 2008 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This one isn't accurate

"high risk low reward defensive decision making" relative to Tyrus Thomas.

Tyrus gets good defensive position. When trying to block shots he's not attempting them to make him exposed defensively. His lapses appear on offense where he's not really asked to be a consistent contributor on anything other than the glass and the free throw line.

The primary point here is that you don't know enough about JR Smith to use him as a comparison to short change any view of Tyrus Thomas.

You can read the Nuggets forums where fans think JR Smith is decent, but they're not looking at him as if he could be really good in the way BAB readers view the upside of Tyrus Thomas. Smith plays and sucks. Thomas can hardly get in games, but predominantly because of questionable coaching decisions.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 11, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We digress

I have nothing but the highest respect for you, NBA. The only parallels between the 2 players are age and apparent uncoachability at this point in their careers. My point, again, was to agree with Matt. Would I prefer Adrian or Zak, or more to the point, Adrian or JR? I'd take JR.

by California Al on Mar 11, 2008 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Point noted

When I see people reference JR Smith in a positive light it just sets off my personal alarms. I too was disappointed when we just dumped him on Denver for very little. I looked at JR like, hey a 6'5" shooting guard, but then when I looked closer it became widely evident that trying to work him into our roster last season would be very difficult. I didn't even think JR would survive one practice with Skiles if he had his well published troubles with Byron Scott.

I squabble with Nugget fans over JR once or twice a week. If you saw the Nuggets@Chicago game then you should remember that 4th quarter shooting spree from Smith. He was on fire. After the Nuggets lost that game to us and then blew a 23 point lead at Milwaukee the next night, George Karl said JR Smith plays in "fantasyland". Karl was right. Even if you are on fire, chucking three point attempts 10 seconds into the shot clock can fall every time and still hurt your team.

I haven't see enough negative stuff from Tyrus off the court in his 2 seasons with us, but the "see you Thursday" comments allegedly made to his teammates is not helping him in this department.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 11, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nah, no positive light

Played with my share of ballhoggin wannabes. Just meant that until Thabo panned out or didn't, we were sorely lacking in size and athleticism at guard, and he's the kind of 7th or 8th option that can turn a game around. Didn't like giving up on TC, and JR's potential appeared to be the only chip we got back (that would/could contribute to the Baby Bulls future). Suspected it was Skiles personal preference that we didn't even give him a look. Than watching him turn out to be what was expected (a long, high scoring pain in the ass) really irked me. Still can't reconcile launching him and then giving Hughes major minutes.

by California Al on Mar 11, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so as long as they look the part

Smith mostly shoots 3s, and isn't a good defender. So maybe his size will make you feel better...and that seems to be the standard goal for the midgetguard-bashing-society.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 11, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I resent being associated with the MGBS

5'8" white guy. AGAIN, not trying to make a case for JR. Character is subjective and situational. The TC>JR>Adrian "character" move looked bad at the time and has played out. TC couldn't play for Skiles...outtahere! JR....fuggedaboudit....outtahere. Adrian...good presence, a keeper. I'm AGREEING with your whole post, every single premise. Sorry I brought up JR as an example. It just seems like TT's career is getting the same treatment, just a little slower, and for the same reasons.

by California Al on Mar 11, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Griffin

isn't exactly on the roster anymore.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

California Al

Can i ask you a question?

Has Tyrus Thomas been givin a fair chance to prove his worth/value to the Chicago Bulls once in his very short careeer?

if so please explain.

by Bulls4Ever on Mar 11, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Better folks around here to ask than me

I am a member of the disdained national broadcast only crowd, so most of what I'm up to speed about comes from this site (thank you one and all; you guys really know your basketball). Again, not trying to restart any JR, TC, TT analyses or debates. Just agreeing with Matt's post. The Zenmeister had/has the knack for melding attitude but talented players like Rodman, Pip, Grant, Kobe, Shaq, Fox, Horry, etc. How many times have you seen Phil jump to his feet, whistle for the player who screwed up, correct him, and not even call a timeout to do it. If he sits you, it's for minutes, not days. If you slide further down the bench, that's because you've earned your final written warning and have to make a decision. Contrast that with the exile treatment of Skiles/Boylan which has primarily isolated the players. Has TT been given a fair chance? To do what? That's the $64K question. I've been in orgs that have a program for growing talent, and I've been with ones that throw you in the deep end. Seems to me that you need deep pockets with the latter philosophy.

by California Al on Mar 11, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the answer is yes

and repeatedly...

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i disagree

in his first starting gig here are his averages:
9.3 Ppg
7 Trbs
This is in 23 min per game which included a 21, 12 game and 19 & 14. After the 19 & 14 game he played a total of 12 min!!! 12 min for a starter who just had a great game?? Then was sent to the bench...
2nd stint as a starter:
avg's
10.6 ppg
7.2 Trbs
in 23 min. Started off with several good games and had 6 pts with 10 Trbs. Then went down to 9 minutes a game and was replaced by a new acquired Drew Gooden. I don't think that's a fair shake considering he was playign well as a starter.

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know you disagree

let's agree to disagree. He'll get yet another shot, and probably two if he just shows up to practice and runs the plays when they put him in.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

not good enough

there's not many games left, and even few considering the last couple may be potentially full-bore garbage time.

entitlement minutes now, and forever!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 11, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

*fewer

point is, lets agree to not defend Boylan ever.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 11, 2008 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok sorry

forgot to add "he'll get another opportunity under the new coach next year." How's that?

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

entitlement

what an ugly word...

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

don't activate the contrarian bot

we already had the argument over the first undeserved benching. If this 2nd one didn't make things clearer I don't know what will.

"it's time"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 11, 2008 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"It's time."

I'm really hoping Pax uses those exact words when announcing the new coach.

It will be just as idiotic as Boylan saying that about starting Gooden, but it provides a nice "full circle" feeling to everything.

Maybe I'll take up hockey.

by wjb1492 on Mar 11, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please

by all means explain.

by Bulls4Ever on Mar 11, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If character really counts, DUMP BOYLAN NOW!

Until tonight, I have been blaming the Skyles/Boylan axis for the Bulls woeful season, but now I have to throw Paxon into the mix. No wonder he constantly says "you know" so much when he tries to explain away his own screwups...obviously suffering brain cramps when trying to complete logically coherent sentences.

He said he was especially upset with TT's absence and laughingly reiterated that meaningful minutes have to be "earned" if the young bigs want to see the court during an actual game. No wonder Gooden and Hughes hog most of the minutes. Their one walk-thru must have made a hell of an impression on our feckless leaders to "earn" so much PT.

Does anyone who follows the Bulls believe the Pistons would have dominated the Bulls in the paint and rebounding if TT and Noah were a tandum duo last night? Detroit was relieved that the dunderhead did not play one of their chief nemises during crunch time despite the fact that TT did not distinguish himself during his huge 3+ minute stint.

Hinrich was plus +9 which "earned" him a permanent seat on the bench while Gooden and even Gordon were heavy minuses.
Boylan ALWAYS finds a way to lose by going with insane matchups and rotations that vary more than the weather. Character does count, but our mismanagement team are a bunch of characters, with a definite deficency of gray matter(my apologies to Aaron).

FIRE THE WHOLE COACHING STAFF..they won't be missed.

by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 11, 2008 2:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Amen

I liked the last postgame comment about leaving Boylan in Detroit. Really sparked my imagination. I'd love to see how the team would perform sans coach compared to how this year's played out. Anyone think they'd be worse?

by California Al on Mar 11, 2008 3:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Boylan can't

control his bladder let alone this team. I hate him and if Paxson brings him back next year I may have to start watching more Celtics games with my husband.

by sue369 on Mar 11, 2008 6:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!

(That about sums up my feelings on things at the moment)

by Sports2 on Mar 11, 2008 7:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Boylan

reminds me of a classic case of a middle management peon who can't handle working with people who were born w/ talent rather than those who worked their way up the ladder.

"I drive a Dodge Stratus!" - Jim Boylan

by Ugh It Live! on Mar 11, 2008 8:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Just Boylan?

Sounds like Paxson to me.

by Sports2 on Mar 11, 2008 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Peter principle

"Employees rise to the level of their incompetence."

Perfectly exemplified in Boylan...

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Mar 11, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wins heal all open wounds

A win tonight keeps our attention. A loss at home is devastating.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 11, 2008 9:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Not to be

pessimistic but the Jazz are a very strong team. At least we'll get to watch what a high-level caliber point guard looks like. D-Will would definitely be the perscription to our season-long fever.

by Ugh It Live! on Mar 11, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whomever Korver guards

ISO offense until the Jazz double team or Sloan pulls him.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 11, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who on our team

demands a double team/could actually run the ISO? BG or Loul are the only ones who come to mind, maybe Noce.

I'm not going to enjoy watching Noce/Hughes fly out to the 3-point line as Korver drills open looks all night. I'm expecting a lot of the high pick and rolls with Boozer/Williams.

by Ugh It Live! on Mar 11, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Korver is a 3

So it's going to be Deng, Noc, Hughes or Thabo that should isolate him on the wing and just dribble past him. I expect the Jazz to switch Korver over to the weaker offensive player and have Harpring or Brewer guard the superior Bulls offensive player.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 11, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

reason for hope

the Jazz are much worse on the road.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 11, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Minutes

Well, maybe Tyrus isn't getting the minutes because, let's see, he's not as good a basketball player as Gooden? The "Tyrus needs more burn" crowd continues to miss the point. There will not be some magical development of Tyrus or Noah where they suddenly become great players because they get 40 minutes a night. They are average players. That's not to say they can't be useful, because they can be. But I think it's safe to say you'll never see either get any All-Star consideration.

Deng and Gordon are good players who are having bad years--Gordon because the entire offense is dysfunctional which has had a big effect on his game, and Deng because he's been hurt and trying to expand his game too quickly. They should bounce back.

by nateroth on Mar 11, 2008 10:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

No, the problem is

we don't know how good Tyrus is and the fact that Gooden hasn't "earned" his minutes like the coaching staff obsessively tries to beat into our heads over and over. Compounded with the fact that Gooden is a backup PF. I don't see how sitting him will hurt the team, we certainly are not talking about an all star by any stretch.

by RogersPark Kris on Mar 11, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gooden is below average.

So even by your crappy evaluation, Thomas is still better.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 11, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gooden vs. Thomas

Gooden's been above average in nine games with the Bulls. He also is putting up better numbers than Tyrus over the entire season in points per 40 minutes, shooting percentage, rebound rate, turnover rate, and PER.

The Hinrich-Hughes-Deng-Gooden-Noah unit has a +21 going according to 82games. Not a true comparison, but that "Eastern Conference Champs" starting lineup from the beginning of the year of Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Thomas-Wallace was at -36 at the time of the trade.

But Tyrus is much better than anyone on the team at two-handed dunks, I'll give you that.

by nateroth on Mar 11, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

heh

Tyrus is a better defender than Gooden and they are pretty much even right now in terms of offensive statistics. Tyrus is a guy who still needs to reach his prime while Gooden is pretty much there already. The Bulls statistically do better when Tyrus is on the floor and statistically do worse when Gooden is on the floor. This should be a no-brainer. When Detroit was performing layup drills against the Bulls...the coach felt our best shotblocker should be glued on the bench. Terrible. Obviously Gooden's 20% shooting and lackluster defense should warrant him heavy minutes that game.

by Parrotman on Mar 11, 2008 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hateroth

If you want to use 82games +- stats to make a point, I'll do the same.

Drew Gooden's +-
2007 (Bulls): -4.3
2007 (Cavs): -1.8

-8.5
-4.4

Tyrus Thomas's +/-

+2.4
+3.1

You're right that Gooden is probably a little better offensively right now, but I think the big difference is help defense. They're different in that Gooden doesn't do it while Tyrus is one of the league's best at it.

by YaoPau on Mar 11, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

one of the league's best?

I don't know about that. Maybe when he isn't rolling up goal tends. TT is good defensive player, the problem is the bulls have committed to Noah at the 5. The pairing of Noah and TT is still to thin and the two of them can get bodied by bigger stronger players like Washington did a few a games ago with Heywood. So you need a bigger player to offset that. This wouldn't be a problem if TT was still coming off of the bench for 20-30 minutes a night. But he's had a few bad games with foul trouble and evidently gone a little crazy. He just needs to realize that there is another game in a few days and another chance to make it right and not act like it's the end of the world.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's a terrible use of plus-minus

If you're going to compare 2 guys on the same team use the Roland Rating or adjusted plus-minus. 5 man units, especially one with Noah vs. one with Wallace aren't going to reveal anything.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Mar 11, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We know

exactly who Gooden is and will be. He just isn't good enough and isn't someone a young and growing team in the coming years should have to count on. It was the same problem we had with Smith. If we were going to the conference finals this year he would have been a great asset, but since we are looking at the next three years his age and decline means we can't count on him and that he takes time away from our younger players who might actually be something in the future years that really matter. TT on the other hand is young and still has to show us what he can give us. If he gets the chance. He actually does very well when he gets quality burn time.

by cranscape on Mar 11, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you're actually missing the point

the reason why people want Tyrus to play is to actually develop him. Tyrus may or may not be the superstar he was drafted for but this organization needs to find that out. Playing behind Gooden/Joe Smith in order to secure the 8th spot in the pathetic Eastern Conference. Why Tyrus lost his job to Gooden blows my mind. He was playing pretty well for a young player actually learning on the job.
I really dont understand what is expected in Tyrus's limited 8 minutes of burn in the 2nd quarter. I understand that yes he does miss assignments and yes he does stand on the perimeter too long, but he was productive when starting with an occasional bad game here or there. It's the NBA people have bad games once in a while. Tyrus was drafted to become a stud in 2-3 years, patience my friend...

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus playing time

I do respect that line of reasoning, but I don't agree with it. Flashes are not enough. Tyrus is either a great player or he isn't. So far it is clear which one applies.

And I also like Tyrus and think he will be a solid rotation guy in the league. I'd like to keep him on the Bulls. But I don't see how anyone can expect that a huge increase in playing time will turn him into a beast. It's not happening.

by nateroth on Mar 11, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It already has happened.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 11, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

if tyrus was putting up

these numbers with 30+ min/game then maybe I would say give him til next year and label him a bust. Right now all Tyrus has to look forward to during the game is a brief 2nd qtr stint and possibly a 2nd half stint. He makes a mistake and is immediately taken out. He cannot learn on the bench. In order for him to get extended minutes he probably feels the need to make an amazing play which should not be the case.

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the Golden State game

is exactly the game we should hope from Tyrus in the future. He was posting up, getting to the line, changing the game defensively, but most importantly demanding the ball in the post!

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gooden also shows flashes

of being a decent player...but obviously that is enough to warrant him exclusive minutes at the PF position. Nevermind the fact that he's looking like an inferior player so far to a 2nd year man that hardly gets minutes.

by Parrotman on Mar 11, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love decent players

John Paxson has brought me around to that.

by Takeaseat on Mar 11, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

More playing time

Remember, Scottie Pippen was an uproven talent who came out of little ol Central Arkansas. Didn't play in the NCAA tournament, but had good showing in the predraft camps.

http://www.nba.com/historical/playerfile/index.html?player=scottie_pippen

Look at his 1st year numbers to his 2nd year numbers. See what more playing time can do for your numbers.

Pippen also had the luxury of not having vets being played in front of him. Imagine if the Bulls had kept Orlando Woolridge and Pippen would have had to play behind him. Do you think Pippen would have been able to show his abilities?

Don't say Pippen was a great player, he wasn't at the time, he worked his way there, just like Tyrus could if given the chance.

by BullsAttitude on Mar 11, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe they should have given

Brad Sellers more minutes too.

by nateroth on Mar 11, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually........

they did give him more minutes and guess what? He really didn't show much improvement.

http://www.nba.com/historical/playerfile/index.html?player=brad_sellers

In Sellers 2nd season, he started 76 games of the 82 games he played. His minutes increased from 21.9 to 27. Rebounds dropped from 4.7 to 3.0. Everything else stayed pretty much the same.

He never showed improvement like Tyrus has, still yet Thomas has never got a real fair shake. Thomas has never broke the 20 min average for his career. Sitting at 15 min/game for his career right now.

So, nice try, who's the next player you are going to state?

by BullsAttitude on Mar 11, 2008 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

have TT's per min stats gone up with

the increased minutes he's gotten this year? (If you check, they haven't.)

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, let's see

His rookie year he averaged

13.4 mins/game 47.5% FG 60.6% FT 3.7 RPG 0.6 APG 0.6 SPG 1.1 BPG 1.31 TO 2.3 PF 5.2 PPG

This year

17.0 mins/game 41% FG 72.5% FT 4.5 RPG 1.2 APG 0.7 SPG 0.9 BPG 1.04 TO 2.1 PF 6.2 PPG

So in 3.6 more mins, he is shooting a little worse but he has attempted more shots this year than he did all of last year. He has increased his FT % by almost 12% points. His rebounding is up by .8, he has doubled his assists, steals are about the same, blocks are down a little, Turnovers are down and his fouling is down. Average a point more than last year.

All of this in only 3.6 more minutes a game. So, there is improvement there, so you check again.

This kid is only 21 YEARS OLD!! How many of you at 21 knew it all, didn't make mistakes, or was a master at your profession?

The greatest comment by Thomas was the one not said but made, when he was asked during an interview what he feels he needs to do to get more playing time? Thomas "Looks to the sky and raises his hands upward"

Here is another player for you to check out

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/monta_ellis/career_stats.html

I'm with the majority that Boylan has to go. His BS of the playing time is earned and then Thomas gets the bench after doing well while starting. Gooden gets put in the starting lineup for not really proving anything or earning it. I'm sorry, I can see why Thomas rebelled.

by BullsAttitude on Mar 11, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

per game is not the same as per minute

try again.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thomas has improved offensively...

...while at the PF spot. He's done worse defensively. Playing out of position, and doing worse there than last year, is what has hurt him.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 11, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I misread the stats.

Not better offensively, just better in his own production. Not keeping the other guy in check, though. I could easily chalk that up to playing with Joe Smith/08 Wallace at Center instead of PJ Brown/07 Wallace at Center. I like making stuff up.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 11, 2008 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow......

We have to judge his per minute stats, cause that tells how great of a player he can be or what type of player he can be?

Just like where I work in wireless, our sales per day is important, but the month's end result is the most important thing.

You will have good days and bad days, but can still have a good month, if you are consistent, you can have a good year. But to get there, you have to work each day on your sales presentation, just as I have to coach my reps on what will help them reach those goals.

I want your explanation of why Tyrus should not be getting more playing time?

For him to be the productive player that he can become, he has to learn on the floor. He will make mistakes, Michael made the same mistake of not trusting his teammates for 6 seasons before Phil showed him what could happen if he did?

I'm not saying Tyrus is going to become a superstar, but he can very productive when getting extended minutes. If he doesn't block the shot sometimes, he can cause someone to alter it.

I feel with the right situation, right guidance, and the right coaching, he can be a very productive NBA player. More than likely, it might be at another franchise and the Bulls will come to regret it.

I hated to see Tyson go, but it was best for him and now most Bulls fans hate seeing him be the player some knew he could be, do you want to see that again?

by BullsAttitude on Mar 11, 2008 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

typical

"But I really, really want him to play more..."

I can give you two reasons: one, foul trouble, and two, he skipped practice. The last game is all the evidence you need that if TT stays out of foul trouble and shows up to practice they will play him 2 minutes longer than they should have (at least in the first half...)

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 13, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wrong answer

You continue to miss the point. Giving someone more minutes does not make them a better player. It's that simple. If he improves as a player, it will not be because he got more minutes. It's the other way around.

I think we know what Tyrus is so far after two years. He is a solid rotation guy, a possible fourth or fifth option on a good team, someone who is a good defender and shot blocker, but not a difference-maker. He will have occasional great games (the first game against Detroit this year stands out) and games where he looks bad on the court. Hopefully as he ages he will become more consistent, but is he going to turn into even the next Horace Grant, let alone an annual All-Star? He hasn't shown it yet, at least to me.

I like Tyrus, I really, really do. But let's not go comparing him to Scottie Pippen, OK?

by nateroth on Mar 11, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow

More minutes doesn't help make a player better? I guess everyone should just let their rookies rot on the bench because they're not going to learn much by getting minutes. I suppose they should get rid of the growing pains in practice right?

by Parrotman on Mar 11, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

More minutes

certainly helped Thabo and Noah.

by cranscape on Mar 11, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so you're saying

TT is good at 13 min/game, not as good at 17.5 min/game, but will increase his production more if he gets an addition X minutes per game so that his overall numbers will be more in line with his 13 min/game averages? How many more minutes should he get? 5, 12, 10.4? At this point in his career he is still a matchup player.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What are your expectations?

What if Tyrus gets 35 minutes a game? Are you expecting him to drastically improve his per minute stats? What benchmark should I use? Should he be outscoring, say, Nocioni on a per-minute basis?

by nateroth on Mar 11, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

my expectations

if Tyrus avg 35 min/game are:
16 ppg
10 Rebounds
2 Assists
2.5 Blcks
2 Turnovers
46 FG%
75 %

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's possible he will but who cares

He's already putting up solid per minute numbers right now. There's already many examples of guys who were eventually all-stars that actually put up worse per minute from one year to the next early in their career because of inconsistent playing time (like Nash and Jermaine O'neal). Thomas may or may not improve as dramatically, but the coaches don't give him the opportunity...but elect to put freaking Drew Gooden or Deng/Noc at the PF spot.

by Parrotman on Mar 11, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

When he

plays around 25 minutes plus a game he tends to have better nights. I guess you could argue he played that long because he somehow earned his minutes opposed to other nights when he was "justifiably" benched. I say I want to see him play with his back against the wall. I want to see him play without fear of being benched just like Thabo and Noah have been able to. It really does create a different working environment and lets you loosen up. The Bulls really have nothing to lose in playing Thomas a lot for the rest of this season. Better try him out this season than do this whole thing over again in the next (or see him thrive in another team).

by cranscape on Mar 11, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

TT fanboi's should be pissed at BW

because if BW had been the player he'd been in year's past, TT would have been able to play through a lot more of his mistakes. But playing him next to BW made for too small of a frontline this year.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yea that makes sense

The coaches sure worry about size when they trot out three guard lineups and lineups with Gooden at center and Noc/Deng at PF

by Parrotman on Mar 11, 2008 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't mean

I want him to play without corrections or instruction. He should have people telling him what he was doing wrong and how to improve. I just want to see him stay on the floor anyway after he makes a mistake. Benching shouldn't be punishment, especially when you have to wait two or three games for another chance to make things right while Gooden can make mistake after mistake and stay in the game anyway.

by cranscape on Mar 11, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

TT gets in at exactly the same point

every single game. The only games he misses are the ones after he skips practices.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol yea right

by Parrotman on Mar 11, 2008 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

their are several

DNP-CD this year, along with several single digit minute games. I know he missed a couple due to an injured ankle but countless times in the 2nd half he sat on the bench while the losses piled up.

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i dont know why

I want to see him succeed so much. Maybe it's because I have to save face with him being part of my screenname. Like said above, I just want to see him play without looking over his shoulder and play the way he is capable. I'll take his failures as long as he has a chance to impove. Then again, I am biased... :)

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I posted this

the other day. I hope he goes to the administration and asks what it is they expect of him. He should stay in Chicago this summer and either he or they should hire someone to work with him at the Berto every weekday.

by sue369 on Mar 11, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

When I came early to a game in Dec

Thomas was one of the first out there at around 4PM (before a 7:30 game) working on his jump shot and post moves. He does seem to be working on what he should be. Hey, when I was in sports I worked really hard in practice and had pretty good skills. That didn't mean anything come game time though. The only thing that made me settle down and play well during a game was quality playing time in the actual game. When I would only be put in for a few minutes and then taken out I really sucked because I was nervous and not used to running the plays live. The other players were not used to working my skills into their game play either. Practice can only go so far.

by cranscape on Mar 11, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why would

he go out and practice before the games if it only goes so far? My point is he should stay in Chicago so he knows what is expected from him. If he finds out exactly what they expect from him he should get back in the starting lineup next season.

by sue369 on Mar 11, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he probably

is tryign to show the coaching staff taht he is dedicated to improving. Practicing before games is somethign he can control. Getting time in games he cannot. When he missed the practice the coaching staff thought somethign was wrong becuase he is normally the first to arrive at practice. That shows me he is dedicated to improving, but the coaches would rather put in Drew Gooden, who just arrived to the organization.

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like TT

and I hope he gets to play more. We aren't at practice to know how he does once he gets there. What happens in practice doesn't always translate to game situtations.

by sue369 on Mar 11, 2008 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not that I don't agree with you...

...but why does it take two years for him to figure out exactly what they expect? These guys see the coaches every day during the year, and they probably see Pax two or three times a year.

There is an obvious failure to communicate something here between two sides. For now, since one is made of "grown wo/men" and the other is 21, I know who I blame it on.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Mar 11, 2008 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tyson

said the same thing re: Skiles when he left.

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes I

know who you blame it on. You say it every day. :-)

by sue369 on Mar 11, 2008 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

More clear evidence

of lack of character and lack of leadership in young Tyrus. Who does he think he is, trying to improve! Obviously a bad egg the Bulls need to move asap. ;)

Maybe I'll take up hockey.

by wjb1492 on Mar 11, 2008 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

isn't

that what Mike Brown was hired for?

by NormVanBeer on Mar 12, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because he's the only potential star we've got

Thats why you're so invested in him.

He's the only guy on this team you look at and think, if he puts together all the tools he's got and actually uses them, could be a really big time superstar player.

My Blog (Econ/Politics/Sports/NBA Salary Info)

by Sports2 on Mar 11, 2008 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And your point?

He comes in at the same time...?

by cranscape on Mar 11, 2008 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why not compare him to .........

Scottie Pippen, it's not like everybody knew Scottie was going to become the player he became. Pippen was a very skinny 6'7' raw talent out of Central Arkansas. No NCAA tournament experience to build himself up.

It didn't hurt that Scottie got to practice against Michael each and every day. It didn't hurt that he had a new head coach in Doug Collins, who was focused on playing the young guys and getting them the time they needed to learn during the game.

Instead, Tyrus doesn't have a player anywhere near Michael to help him along. Also, he has a coach who cares more about his resume than helping the youngsters come along. Look at Maurice Cheeks and Nate McMillan, they have played their young players this year and it has paid off tremendously.

You are thinking of the Scottie Pippen 1991 to 1998, not the Pippen of 1987 to 1990. Pippen learned on the court during the games.

Nothing, NOTHING, can simulate a real game, not practice, not working alone on your skills, not conditioning, not working with a sports physcologist, none of this can simulate what players experience during the game, PLAIN and SIMPLE.

He is going to be inconsistent as a young player cause he still has that fear of being yanked for any mistake he makes. You have to let him play through those, and it doesn't help that he doesn't have a coach to teach him or correct him when he makes those mistakes.

I really don't believe we can know what we have out of Tyrus until he gets consistent minutes.

"Giving someone more minutes does not make them a better player", so Pippen and Monte Ellis just improved and they decided to play them. No learning on the court, they just got better the next year. So, you are saying their increased playing time didn't help them learn at all?

You stated Brad Sellers and I came back with that he did get more minutes, yet he didn't show any improvement as Tyrus has with increased minutes. The only way he can learn the NBA game is to be on the floor during the NBA GAME!

by BullsAttitude on Mar 11, 2008 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think they have all-star potential

To me, Tyrus is Andrei Kirilenko. Their body types, athleticism, and style of play are eerily similar. And Kirilenko was an all-star.

As for Joakim, there aren't many centers that should be better in a couple years. My short list includes Howard, Yao, Kaman, Horford, Oden, and Jefferson. At worst he's a near double-double guy who leads with a winning attitude.

Joakim is 23, Tyrus is 21. To put this into perspective, when Steve Nash was 23, he averaged 3.3 points per game. When Jermaine O'Neal was 21 he was averaging 3.9ppg. I noticed you're a season ticket holder, so I can understand the frustration, but I think you're rushing to judgment on these two.

by YaoPau on Mar 11, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bynum

isn't on your shortlist?

by Option27 on Mar 11, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My shortlist just got one longer

Missed him.

by YaoPau on Mar 11, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

U make some good points YaoPau...

The biggest thing Tyrus missed by not staying in school was the media politics class (if there is such a thing). He needs to learn how to get people in his corner. Tyrus' problem is that he doesn't understand how to make people like him and probably never will or by the time he does he'll be long gone (Tyson Chandler).

by Takeaseat on Mar 11, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

AK was a great player on a bad team

and now he pisses and moans and groans because he is on a good team and the offense doesn't run through him anymore.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So true... His situation perplexes me

by Takeaseat on Mar 11, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or because he's out of position

He thrived at the 4, playing close to the basket on both ends. It fit his game like it fits Tyrus's. They brought in Boozer and Okur, and he had to move outside. Look at what he did against the Warriors in the playoffs last year. He's just now this season developed a 3pt shot.

by snley on Mar 11, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he's actually just below

career averages in 3PA/36 (he's just making them this season), and his inside vs. perimeter attempt percentages are pretty much the same.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Mar 11, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Should have looked it up

Looks like his biggest drops the last couple years have been in Usg and Reb Rate. That's more likely to be explained by the mere presence of Boozer and Okur instead of Kirilenko's switch to the 3. I think he's a good comparison for Thomas and why he can play, and succeed at, the 4.

by snley on Mar 11, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Alexander Haig...

LOL. That's first Alexander Haig reference I've heard in a very long time.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Mar 11, 2008 11:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The solution?

Obtain a player off-season who will handle the ball (over 50% of the time) in a game, who is talented and extremely passionate about winning. This player will be either a PG or a wing (SG or SF). Everyone is expendable to obtain this player. Wow! this sounds like Kobe?
Get a warrior, not a complainer, who isn't afraid to demand the best from his team mates, and gives 110% every day in games and practice.

The so called "core" are all role players waiting to be lead, plus there are too many spoil brats on the team (Duhon, TT, Gordon, Hughes, Hinrich, Paxson and Boylan). Someone needs to hire Charles Oakley as an assistant coach to come in and punch and push these spoiled millionaires in practice. I bet these guys have soft west coast style practices, so that no one's feeling get hurt because of a foul.

Since Boylan is here to stay until the end of the season. Pray that Boylan's coaching can speak louder than his job interviews to the media.

by exult463 on Mar 11, 2008 1:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Kobe: 'not a complainer'

ha!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 11, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

a competitive complainer

Yes? Or a sweakie wheel who gets the oil. Who complains about "get me better players".

Imagine "Deng" saying I need better players? or Kirk. First response would be.. "first you need to play better"

I'd say Kobe's complaints are difference from this bunch who argue about how many days to suspend a team mate, missing games due to sore pinkies and wrists, missing practices, head bands, noah wanting to win which upset teammates, fines, fines and more fines because I can't play, therefore I can't get my stats.

by exult463 on Mar 11, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Coach Skiles!?

You came back!

by CrashDavis on Mar 11, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kobe is

a whiney ass baby. How do you know Kirk and Deng haven't asked for better players? We know Kobe did because he airs his little hissy fits in the media. Kirk and Luol are better than that.

by sue369 on Mar 11, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

dont forget

Kirk threw BG under the bus, when asked how he felt when playing with Thabo rather than BG...

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Mar 11, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it was a political comment

Just like how the bulls orginazation trains them to comment. Imagine if the question was, "how do you feel about working with Ben Gordon now rather than thabo?" The answer, i expect, would be "Well thabo is real good, but playing with Ben takes some of the offensive pressures off of me and lets me play my game". So maybe its kirk throwing his players under a bus, or maybe he is justifying what the orginazation is doing.

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Mar 11, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They'd even

defend playing with BW because of his "veteran leadership" and "skills that the stats don't show". You can pretty much find a good thing to say about anyone you happen to be playing with. There are obvious upsides to playing with Thabo or Gordon, but you tend to talk up the guy you are playing with at the moment to be politic.

by cranscape on Mar 11, 2008 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I remember

Kirk answering a question honestly. He hasn't thrown a hissy fit every game because he had to play in the back court with BG. Big difference.

by sue369 on Mar 11, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he saves the hissy fits

for the officials :)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 11, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's doing

better on that too. :P

by sue369 on Mar 11, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

boylan is in control

as much as i have a shot of making the nba... (zero % chance of making it)

by Conor on Mar 11, 2008 3:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

this attitude is detremental to BAB

The veteran BAB may organize a vote to suspend your commenting privileges.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Mar 11, 2008 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I second the motion

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Mar 11, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL!

by exult463 on Mar 11, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noah...

PTI just did a blurb on Noah in it's end segment, but I missed it.

Did anyone happen to see what it was about?

by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 11, 2008 5:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It was just a happy anny shout out

To the funky dance that Noah did after the Gators won the SEC tourney last year.

by upther on Mar 12, 2008 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unbelievable,. This supports

the speculative diagnosis that I made yesterday. The franchise is malfunctioning because the management and coaches are (and were under Skiles) egomaniacal fools who are more interested in consolidating their power than winning games. They've made the season into a needless power struggle. They've succeeded only in alienating their best players.

"I'm in control here." What sort of myopic, insecure, Napoleonic sentiment is that? First of all, repeating an assertion, even with a mock authoritative tone that tries desperately to camoflouge trembling weakness, doesn't make it true. Neither does strutting around with your chest out.

Boylan, I loathe you. Moron, moron, moron. Arguably the dumbest coach the Bulls have ever had.

I can't go to the game tonight, even against the hated Jazz, because I can't continue to support this despotic , paternalistic regime.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Mar 11, 2008 5:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Your man Sam

on CTL tonight said management is killing young Tyrus by benching him so much. He said TT has the highest ceiling of all the players on this team and they won't let him play. I'm glad he's standing up for Tyrus.

He also said he feels BG, Noch and Kirk are out next season. I know it's only his opinion but I hope he's wrong about Kirk.

by sue369 on Mar 11, 2008 6:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs