Wallace vs. the Bucks (and the Cavs)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 26, 2008 10:10 PM CST

Anybody cozy up to their league pass like myself and watch Wallace (and Smith) and the Cavs tonight?

Funny to see a stretch in the 2nd quarter where Wallace botched two straight close opportunities. Not that such things can't happen, but to a Bulls fan it's good stuff.

I was worried that the Cavs were going to pull away (and ruin my prognostication over at TBJ) until Mike Brown put Wallace back in during the 4th. Although Brown did save some face by subbing him out with under 2 minutes left on offense.

I didn't know that Big Z would be out tonight, so it meant a lot of Wallace and Varejao together. That went predictably on offense.

Wallace finished (in 32 minutes) 2-6 from the field, 3-4 from the line, for 7 points. 11 rebounds (only 5 defensive though). A by-far-worst plus/minus of -14.

:-D

The Bucks won, by the way, on a last-second heave by Michael Redd. They likely wouldn't have needed it if they didn't miss so many free throws near the end.

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I caught the end.

I was downright pissed when Lebron tied it up, expecting OT, and thrilled to watch Redd hit the game winner. Big Ben seems to be reverting to form already.

I don't remember where, but I was reading one analyst predict that things will go south in Cleveland quickly because BW needs some ego-stroaking and Lebron is used to denigrating teammates. I'm interested to see what happens there.

Maybe I'll take up hockey.

by wjb1492 on Feb 26, 2008 10:11 PM CST 0 recs

i did not watch it, how was wally c king doing ?

by runio on Feb 26, 2008 10:24 PM CST 0 recs

Classic

Glad that Wallace missed two from in close - a ready example to Plain Dealer writers who thought that Wallace's 'finishing ability' around the basket would be a good elixir for Z's problems. Apparently, those writers don't spend a lot of time actually watching other NBA games.

by Gene Banks on Feb 26, 2008 10:47 PM CST 0 recs

Milwaukee's only a half game behind the Bulls

I like seeing Cleveland lose (especially now that they have the Corpse), but the Bucks are on the verge of passing the Bulls.

by Big D on Feb 26, 2008 10:52 PM CST 0 recs

eh, good point

but I'm not that worried about the Bucks, although they haven't packed it in yet, which was where it looked the team was heading.

On the plus side, New Jersey lost.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 26, 2008 11:03 PM CST up 0 recs

I agree

The bucks aren't even a playoff contender! Dont worry about them at all, yeah big win against Clev, but lets see how they do for the rest of the season.

by Hendo g on Feb 27, 2008 10:30 AM CST up 0 recs

And we are?

???

by Sky on Feb 27, 2008 11:29 AM CST up 0 recs

It was a great game for the Bucks

Bogut used to be intimidated by Wallace, but that's history. And the Cavs are going to wish it was history for them.

Joe Smith, otoh, is a plus. sniff The FSN Milwaukee network should Wally S's slightly dirty tactics, too.

by KT on Feb 26, 2008 10:58 PM CST 0 recs

that should read showed, not should.

by KT on Feb 26, 2008 11:00 PM CST up 0 recs

haha yeah

i was getting flamed on another board for telling them BB's first game was an anamoly...a honeymoon game.

looks like the honeymoon only lasted one game.

by Orlando Woolridge on Feb 27, 2008 12:56 AM CST 0 recs

Now hold on now...

Big Ben still has a way to go to reach 'corpse' status in Cleveland. I'm not gonna lie, I was satisfied with Ben anytime he got double-figure rebounds in Chicago. But to go along with 3/4 from the line AND a steal? Dude's playing out his mind!

Seriously though I have March 3 for when he's back to 8 boards a game.

by ForWhomTheBullTolls on Feb 27, 2008 3:37 AM CST 0 recs

-14 ..... the Corpse surfaces in Cleveland

The Corpse led the Cavs last night with at dismal -14. The closest being Scerbiak at -4. The -14 was definitely a reflection of Wallace being outplayed by Bogut and his poor defense. On an inbounds pass with about two minutes remaining, Bogut got an easy dunk as the Corpse didn't seem to move. I watched the last half and it was the poor defense by the Corpse that stood out. Wallace accentuated Cleveland's reliance on James for offense. If you wondered if the Corpse was going to come alive in Cleveland - last night's game confirmed he remains moribund.

by chgobr on Feb 27, 2008 6:44 AM CST 0 recs

More from BrewHoop

On last night's game:

there was definitely something funny about watching the Cavs try to run a pick/roll with LBJ and Wallace. Ben had a game-worst minus-14 rating, and while he did manage 11 rebounds, Wallace's presence caused problems for the Cavs when the Bucks trapped LBJ and forced other guys to make them pay. For that reason the Cavs looked much more dangerous with Joe Smith (12/8) on the floor, whose mid-range shot is exactly the sort of weapon that complements James' attention-drawing ability.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2008 9:28 AM CST 0 recs

Wallace is supporting evidence...

...that most older, more experienced players don't magically transform just by switching teams and being "rejuvenated". Gooden and Hughes will be Evidence #1,342 and #1,343.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 27, 2008 9:33 AM CST 0 recs

not to mention Shaq

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 27, 2008 9:40 AM CST up 0 recs

#1,341?

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 27, 2008 9:44 AM CST up 0 recs

Looking at the box score

It's hard to believe the Cavs lost this game. They almost shot 50% from the field. Then you get to the Bucks free throw attempts - 37 of them - and you have your answer.

Joe Smith was a +4.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 27, 2008 9:35 AM CST 0 recs

it wasn't just the officiating

The Bucks tend to falter at the end of games, and had some ball handling gaffs in the last two minutes, but the Cavs didn't take advantage. Wally sucked, Ben was horrid.

And the Cavs were in control of the game most of the way.

by KT on Feb 27, 2008 9:45 AM CST up 0 recs

Feb 29th: Wolves vs Cavs

Over/Under on Al Jefferson: 35 points, 20 rebounds.

by YaoPau on Feb 27, 2008 9:58 AM CST 0 recs

They still have Z.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 27, 2008 10:17 AM CST up 0 recs

People

Seem to think Wallace actually had a good first game with the Cavs.

Am I the only one who watched that game?

Besides him going 2 for 2 from the line, he was horrid.

All his points came on easy dunks and his rebounds just fell to him without even jumping.

I love that we've dropped his misery on a team we'll be battling in the future.

I'm surprised ABC still kept Sunday's game between the Bulls and Cavs.

I guess they're excited about the new rivalry between the two teams!

Yeah right, who am I kidding? They'll televise a Cavs game if they were playing Memphis.

by Option27 on Feb 27, 2008 10:14 AM CST 0 recs

shout-out to Tom Dore?

Forgot this: during the game last night, Joe Smith had an offensive board and the Bucks PbP guy called it a "man's rebound"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2008 10:15 AM CST 0 recs

The like Joe

Everyone in Milwaukee likes Joe, so it may have just been a compliment. I don't know if paschke watches Bulls games since he does nearly all of the Bucks games.

Did you catch the look at how Wally hooks players? I hope someone hits him hard some day, in a non-dirty way.

by KT on Feb 27, 2008 10:28 AM CST up 0 recs

that's how kirk hurt his back.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 27, 2008 10:39 AM CST up 0 recs

Ben Wallace made the NBATV top 10 plays

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0D_oGgAGmI

Ben Wallace is play #7. ;)

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 27, 2008 10:48 AM CST 0 recs

It took me few times through

to find him. Glad to see him doing the grounded, running block attempt for someone else.

Interest Level = Wins - Losses + 2*Tyrus Time + 1.5*(Thabo + Noah Time) - .4*Bricked layups + 3*Red Kerr Candies

by cubbybear on Feb 27, 2008 11:14 AM CST up 0 recs

Kelly Dwyer

knows all to well:

I don't use individual player plus/minus often, especially within the small sample size of one game, but when it accurately described what I saw on the court, it's worth a reference: Ben Wallace was -14 tonight, worst on the Cavs, and Mike Brown obviously did not read my open letter to Danny Ferry from last week.

Mike, you can't let this guy set your screens. Teams don't have to guard him, they don't guard him, and the result often sees LeBron James having to rise over a double-team just to make a desperate pass some 28 feet from the goal, with the shot clock winding down. Wallace pulled in 11 rebounds (five offensive, mostly tap-outs, impressive stuff), but he's killing your team if you leave him in too long, and/or involve him offensively.

With Zydrunas Ilgauskas sick and Anderson Varejao in foul trouble, leaving Wallace out there for 32 minutes was passable to a point (even that's stretching it), but Brown has to take more advantage of Joe Smith's career year.

KD makes a good point about plus/minus, it's just a nice tool when you see a team doing worse with someone on the court, and then can confirm it with that number. I cherry-picked Wallace's number because it was SO bad, and you could feel the game going the Cavs way until he was put back in. It's also a useful tool to take shots at Nocioni.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2008 11:21 AM CST 0 recs

Take a gander

at the Suns/Grizzlies playing time chart over at popcorn machine. There's some fuel in the data to fire up the anti-Shaq Suns' fans.

Short short version: Shaq sat the entire 4th quarter which the Suns outscored the Grizz by 14 to win the game by 14.

lol, Kerr

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 27, 2008 12:00 PM CST up 0 recs

It is fascinating how smart basketball people

don't see what seems so obvious to us. I am thrilled the Corpse is gone. The only player I can now think of that I was unwilling to take in order to unload Wallace was Shaq. Now Phoenix has Shaq as their savior. Unbelievable to me! I really thought Steve Kerr was too smart to do something this dumb.

by chgobr on Feb 27, 2008 1:32 PM CST up 0 recs

Kerr was last to adopt-a-shaq POV

Reports indicate that the demand to get Shaq were in this order.

Amare
Amare and Nash
D'Antoni
Sarver
Kerr

The trade details are also reported to have been initiated between Sarver and Heat owner Mickey Arison.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 27, 2008 1:41 PM CST up 0 recs

I never believed Paxson wanted Wallace

I still believe this was a Reinsdorf idea.

by chgobr on Feb 27, 2008 2:09 PM CST up 0 recs

maybe it originated from Reinsdorf

but good ol' Johnny boy must've really liked it too. You'd have to be a pretty weak-minded GM to go out and sign a player for $60m just because your owner suggests it...

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 27, 2008 2:56 PM CST up 0 recs

I agree

Paxson gets no pass for that signing, no matter what his owner suggested. Plus there's my whole issue with Reinsdorf conspiracies...

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2008 2:59 PM CST up 0 recs

I'm curious about your Noce-hate, and BG love.

82games just updated their +- pages.

This is net +- adjusted per 100 possessions for the whole season.

Noah +8,6
Thomas +3,8
Thabo +3,5
Noce +3,3
Kirk -0,1
Duh -0,2
Gray -3,5
Deng -3,6
Gordon -7,3

LH -1,4
Gooden -15,9 (But they have not played enough minutes for a statistical basis.)

Also Noah is the ONLY Bull with a positive ON-floor for 100 pos.

Benny the Bull is the ONLY Bull with a positive OFF-floor per 100 pos.

Noc is clearly a better contributor to the Bulls than BG so I'm wondering if you're willing to admit you are a BG-fan rather than a Bulls-fan or merely severely misguided?

by Bass on Feb 28, 2008 3:37 AM CST up 0 recs

there's been more than one season

in their careers.

(I looked it up)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 28, 2008 8:10 AM CST up 0 recs

Ok, so you're living in the past.

Fair enough.

by Bass on Feb 28, 2008 9:11 AM CST up 0 recs

or a larger sample.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 28, 2008 9:37 AM CST up 0 recs

Speaking of living in the past

Did you check out Rick Carlisle's analysis of the trade?

"He was DPOY both of the years that I had him"

Way to pad yourself on the back there Rick.

"Not only are you getting a guy who's going to be top 5 in rbg and bpg, but you're bringing an intimidating presence"

If he meant on his OWN TEAM, then he's probably right.. In the league he's 24th and 21st respectively. And "intimidating presence"?? Come on!

"There are a lot of guys in this league who are just flat-out scared to play against Ben Wallace"

Wha-wha-WHAT??? ROFL

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3271471&n8pe6c=2&categoryId=2459 788

And here I was thinking he might be a candidate to take over after BaB assasinates Boylan, which I'm hoping will happen REAL soon.

He is really destroying this team.

by Bass on Mar 1, 2008 4:18 AM CST up 0 recs

how many times

is Wallace going to be tore down? I can't stand him in the least, but I'm wondering why entire diaries are being dedicated to his lousy play when he's not even on this team still?

by KirkHinrump on Feb 27, 2008 11:34 AM CST 0 recs

I guess we'll have to wait and see, won't we.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2008 11:38 AM CST up 0 recs

60 Million * 40%

Is a lot of bitching worth. Experts say his contributions to the team this year were worth $45.23.

Interest Level = Wins - Losses + 2*Tyrus Time + 1.5*(Thabo + Noah Time) - .4*Bricked layups + 3*Red Kerr Candies

by cubbybear on Feb 27, 2008 11:57 AM CST up 0 recs

Because he is payed like a King's and

plays like a Corpse.

by chgobr on Feb 27, 2008 1:25 PM CST up 0 recs

It's the Chandler effect

we want to be sure he won't spring back to life once he leaves the bulls.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 27, 2008 1:33 PM CST up 0 recs

Bullshooter you are so right!!!

I don't want that to happen again. That was and is too painful to repeat. Curry turned out worse than I envisioned and Pax comes out smelling like a rose on that deal. You have the right idea on this one.

by chgobr on Feb 27, 2008 1:38 PM CST up 0 recs

I don't wish him ill

Sometimes things just don't work in certain situations for a variety of reasons. I always liked Chandler and still do. I'm glad he's doing well in NO, but I wouldn't want him back. Certain guys just thrive in different situations. I hated Curry as a Bull and I hate him as a Knick. BW on the other hand, did upset me because his effort in light of his huge contract was lacking this year. I do like him in general though, and I don't want him to suck in Cleveland, except in terms of that team's effect on us division and conference-wise. He's not a terrible guy, this just wasn't the right fit for him.

by Coach Van Lier on Feb 27, 2008 2:26 PM CST up 0 recs

I want him to be awful

because he was awful here, so it'd be pretty unsettling if it was just a matter of him no longer giving a crap in Chicago. I think he was caring, he just can't play anymore, and that will be proven in Cleveland.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2008 2:43 PM CST up 0 recs

second that

I want him to be terrible and tear apart a key division rival for the Bulls.

by Jobu on Feb 27, 2008 3:30 PM CST up 0 recs

I 3rd that

I was a BIG big Ben fan in Detroit and was so pumped for him to be on my team, when he stunk last year and came around, i had a lot of hope for him continuing that pattern when he stunk to start this year off.

But when he never came around, I said I think he just didn't give a crap, but I always hoped it was more that he just lost his way with those injuries he had earlier this year and the age caught up to him......

I hope he stinks because if he stinks I can still like him and like his career. If he turns things around and is the beast he was in Detroit, then forget about it, he sucks in my mind......

by majoyenrac on Feb 27, 2008 3:54 PM CST up 0 recs

Imagine if Adrian Griffen

Had also been sent to the Cavaliers, your wish of tearing down a divisional rival would have come true in a heartbeat. Team meetings and unanimous voting is sure to follow those two cancer-like players, well, only when they are together to actually ponder about such meetings.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 27, 2008 3:56 PM CST up 0 recs

You forgot

player induced suspensions to any young, passionate player who happens to have more talent than they do at a fraction of the cost.

by Jobu on Feb 27, 2008 4:10 PM CST up 0 recs

Sorry

LOL. Good Lookin Out

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 27, 2008 4:15 PM CST up 0 recs

i keep hearing

how well Wallace did last year and this year he just didn't "bring it." He underperformed last year and was even worse this year. He was just overall bad and I hope he will continue to be.

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Feb 27, 2008 4:58 PM CST up 0 recs

He underperformed

Last year only because he stunk in the first half of the year. Wallace was mroe a factor Mid Dec-on and was playing close to his old stellar self. He was named 2nd team all defense for a reason, it wasn't just because of his rep.

That's why when he sucked earlier this year at first I was like, oh well he's injured he'll come on a bit, but when he seemed to get worse and lose any passion he may have had on opening night, I was sick of him and thought we were stuck.

That's why I think Paxson won the lottery for the Bulls.....we obviously aren't much better, but we COULD be much better in 1-2 yrs without the albatross that was Big Ben and the potential trade options we have again to get us to a high level VERY QUICKLY....now the trade just has to happen and work...

by majoyenrac on Feb 28, 2008 3:53 PM CST up 0 recs

I think

the main problem is one of percieved attitude. I always really liked Chandler when he was on the Bulls and I wished him well immediately after he was traded because it was obvious how much he cared about the game. He was always the most emotional Bull, whether he was on the bench or in the game. He wasn't dogging it in Chicago, he was just unable to develop any confidence under Skiles. He was never a cancer, just a guy who legitimately needed a new start to rebuild his confidence.

The problem with Wallace is that he didn't even seem to care about the Bulls last year immediately after signing a franchise player deal, and this year he made no attempt to hide the fact that he was disinterested. I defended Wallace all year last year, and I even gave him the benefit of the doubt after the stomach-turning episode in which he hung out with the opposing team's players during a playoff series. But Wallace's behavior this year was indefensible. Laughing on the bench during blowouts, childishly demanding crunch-time minutes even while shooting under 40% from the line much of the season, and the various Joakim Noah-related incidents in which he flexed his "veteran" muscle to intimidate an idiotic and overmatched rookie coach all created well-founded fan animosity towards Wallace. He didn't care at all about the fate of this team, his heart was still with the Pistons while he was accepting the larger Bulls paychecks, and he was actively and intentionally sabotaging one of the Bulls' best young players. These are the reasons that bad feelings linger, not the fact that age and injuries have made Wallace a less capable player. Sucking and caring is forgivable; sucking and not caring creates a rift.

by Petor on Feb 27, 2008 5:00 PM CST up 0 recs

Maybe you guys make a point.

As I read back what I wrote, I realize the difference between me wishing Tyson well and not wishing Curry well was a question of effort, and yet for some reason I feel willing to give Big Ben a free pass. I think maybe I was just never on board with signing Ben in the first place and didn't expect much from him. Fine you guys win, I don't want him to do well for a division rival. Thanks to all the BaBers for convincing me to hate instead of love. Hahahaha.

by Coach Van Lier on Feb 27, 2008 5:20 PM CST 0 recs