One honeymoon game before the rotation questions haunt us again

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 23, 2008 12:19 PM CST in News Comment 90 comments

That game was fun.

Tyrus and Noah started out like a ball of fire, with Tyrus even hitting 3 jumpers in his first stint. Gordon had a Manu-esque 37 points on 18 shot attempts. Every player looked good except for Deng, Gray and Duhon, and even that was alright because it allowed me to therapeutically fume over Duhon, and specifically Boylan sticking with tiny-ball for an unreasonable amount of time in the first half.

If it wasn't for an unconscious shooting binge by J.R. Smith the 4th quarter would've been a complete walk, but even the nervous moments didn't get too nervous, because unlike before we knew a certain offensively anemic and gassed-out big man wouldn't be coming in to close out the game.

So now the (somewhat) fun arguments can begin of how to fit the new team together.

Some mixed messages in Saturday's notes columns. The theme from Boylan seems to be competition (and the revelation that Paxson never tells him who to play, hmmm), but here's a quote on Gooden: "You see Drew is a legitimate power forward who's strong around the basket, runs the floor, excellent rebounder. So he slides right into that slot comfortably for us." Which, combined with Paxson's earlier remarks over Gooden being "a starting 4" (if not "our" starting four), has the Herald (and Trib somewhat) declaring Gooden the starter.

There's less of a consensus on Hughes, although not from the man himself: "I plan to start, I've been comfortable in a starting role for some time now. I like to be out there in the court."

(Hey man, who doesn't?)

I'm going to try and not get caught up in Boylan's words, because he's a goof and who knows what he'll do when done preaching about 'earning' spots and other nonsense. With no practice time for the new guys before three games in four nights, I don't see the rush in starting either guy, but I'm not going to get too upset about either getting the nod.

If Gooden starts, this isn't the same case where they were starting ancient and awful (sometimes both) players in Smith and Wallace ahead of Thomas and Noah. Gooden's an actual player so starting's fine, the real problem will be if Thomas isn't the first big off the bench, as he can work subbing in for either Noah or Gooden, and only after that should Nocioni and Gray be considered.

As I said before (and this was only emphasized last night), Hughes can take all of Duhon's minutes right now as the backup point guard, and work from there. If Hughes does start (a more egregious decision than starting Gooden, but also less likely), the bigger issue is if Thabo goes behind Duhon, and/or also doesn't pick up some lost minutes as a SF backing up Deng (when he 'earns' that spot back from Noc...ya notice Noc getting his minutes cut in these scenarios?).

Integrating Gooden and Hughes is a better problem to have than doing the same with Wallace and Smith. Boylan is tough to predict (I'm sure even he feels that way, heh) so we'll see what happens Sunday night. I won't get too angry if that Nuggets game didn't permanently cement a future starting lineup, but it should have definitely cemented some spots in the rotation.

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I thought the more worrying thing

was Boylan claiming full responsibility for being an idiot.

"John has never dictated to me any philosophy, has never told me to play this player or that player," Boylan said. "He has let me do what I want."

I'm trying to be optimistic, and it does in a way make me feel better about Paxson. But if Paxson isn't willing to coach this team himself to make sure the right players play then he needs to give Boylan a color coded rotation chart to follow. And if Boylan won't follow it, he needs to find someone who will. I'm sure Pete Myers will volunteer. I know Paxson doesn't want to develop the reputation of a meddling GM and he probably promised not to interfere in order for Boylan to take this dead end interim job, but there's already been enough damage done this season.

by Scotter on Feb 23, 2008 12:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

true

I don't think Paxson gets the advantages of having an interim coach. It's basically to be the puppet.

Although like you said maybe it's reassuring that he hadn't been telling Boylan to do what he's done so far.

Also...I don't see a situation where Boylan (or Pax) would admit a situation where the GM is calling the shots. So maybe he is, they're just not telling us.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 23, 2008 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Clearly Pax has been calling the shots

If Boylan's self-preservation reflex was telling him to win games, he would have been playing Noah and Thomas more.

It's pretty clear what Pax said after Skiles was fired was "we're going to play the kids more" and what Pax told Boylan to do was "showcase the guys we want to trade. Oh, and Gordon's too short, don't you dare start him."

by Sports2 on Feb 23, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Also dictating the lineups

Said before in threads many times already, just trade away the guys who are blocking the development of Tyrus and Joakim.

Easiest way to to have say in a lineup without telling your coach directly

by Option27 on Feb 23, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're right that Paxson/Boylan

were showcasing guys. For example, we know the Bulls were trying to include Duhon in the Cleveland deal, and now that that's past tense, look how few minutes Du actually got in the game vs what he got the past few games:

18 min vs Denver
26 min vs NJ
32 min vs Miami
31 min vs NO

And remember, last night's minutes came with a depleted roster, so if there was no showcasing going on the previous few games, by all rights Duhon should have gotten even more minutes last night.

by eGirl on Feb 23, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The guards

weren't depleted though. Only departed guard (since isn't he a SG/SF?) was Griffin, who doesn't play anyway.

So we still had the same guard rotation as always, in theory.

by Jaina on Feb 23, 2008 4:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

His point

The issue is Duhon's percentage of minutes within that rotation; his 18 minutes last night may evince the fact that Duhon's larger percentage of the guard minutes recently was mostly due to his being a trade candidate.

by jpx7 on Feb 23, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Excuse me

Her* point

by jpx7 on Feb 23, 2008 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I understand

and I was kind of backing it up. She said that maybe his minutes would be more because of depletion - but the guards weren't the ones depleted. So all the more reason his decrease in minutes were due to the fact he's not on the table anymore.

by Jaina on Feb 23, 2008 6:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Grif may not have played much,

but when he did, it was insufferable. His total number of minutes should have been much closer to zero. So in our minds it was like he was out there for an eternity.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Feb 24, 2008 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think he was also a

clubhouse destroyer.

by eGirl on Feb 24, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not disagreeing with that statement.

However, his absence doesn't affect the guard rotation much, is all my point was.

by Jaina on Feb 24, 2008 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lineup combinations

Lenovo stats on nba.com lists most productive 5-man lineup for previous night, 4-man, 3-man, etc., and Bulls were tops for entire nba last night for everything but top individual:

Kirk, Noc, Ty, Thabo, Joakim +19
Kirk, Noc, Ty, Joakim +30
Kirk, Ty, Joakim +33
Ty, Joakim +35

http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo.jsp

One night isn't enough to draw solid conclusions, but it certainly is enough for me to want to see more of Ty and Joakim together to see how this develops!

Maybe I'll take up hockey.

by wjb1492 on Feb 23, 2008 12:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

That's amazing

I've never seen that site before.

Do you think there are people in the Bulls organization that are aware of all the stat stuff on line?..and that look at it?

I've read stories taht say even old Lou Pinella is constantly on the computer doing line-up research, etc. But I've never seen or heard anything from the Bulls that says they do anything more than just fly by the seat of their pants.

by eGirl on Feb 23, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And look

Kirk is on a lot of those lists. I know he gets knocked here, but as a viewer I feel the game looks a lot smoother when he is out there. And not with Duhon, but that is a given. I am kind of looking forward to seeing the new guards play together...if Duhon gets the end of the bench.

by cranscape on Feb 23, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Because Kirk is one of our best 5

As long as he's on the floor with players that are quick enough to slide after the screen to the rim for easy dunks. Kirk's shot is respected. That's why defenders hug him when he dribbles around the high screen. Kirk will draw both defenders at times, but when Tyrus is out there all Kirk needs is one step towards Kirk from the big and Tyrus should be wide open for either an improving jumper or a strong flush in the paint.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 24, 2008 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow,

I've never seen anything like that before. Thanks for showing us that.

by sue369 on Feb 23, 2008 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

RE:Lineup combinations

Playing around with the 'splits' feature will also show you that Ben Wallace is not part of a single one of the Bulls 25 best 3-man combinations. Not one.

by Jobu on Feb 23, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Stick with what works

I really liked how the starting lineup performed last night and think they deserve a chance to see if we have something. There has been so much shuffling of the lineup this year which really doesn't help anyone develop or find their place.

I also believe we have a pretty decent second unit so why not try to play them as such like the Lakers do.

Starters 2nd unit
PG - Kirk Hughes
SG - Thabo BG (His defensive deficiences should be masked)
SF - Noc Deng (Needs to get back in shape to earn starting spot)
PF - TT Gooden, TT
C - NOah Noah, Noah, TT

by Bass on Feb 24, 2008 2:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think SF is the one position

that can be alternated between a starting Noc and a starting Deng. I can't say that would help the chemistry, but there are starter matchups where Noc's game would be superior to Deng's. I am correcting right now for Deng's injuries and once he is back at full strength he is the starting SF.

In the Nuggets game, Carmelo thought he could eat Noc alive. He didn't respect Noc's offensive game. Most NBA teams don't. Noc made him pay for it. 21 points.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 24, 2008 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This is great - thanks!

by chgobr on Feb 24, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

When I was watching soccer in Europe a lot

They say "You don't change line-up if you win".
Assuming that, why not to give Gooden and Hughes
some 15-25 minutes and see how do they fit.
They didn't practice togheter yet.
Boylan play the same starting line-up!!!
And Duhon should play only if someone is hurt.

"YES,WE CAN!"-B.OBAMA.

by Azabullsfan on Feb 23, 2008 12:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Duhon

Should get ZERO minutes now. ZERO.

by gobulls1124 on Feb 23, 2008 1:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Are negative minutes possible?

Boylan should look into taking back some of Du's minutes earlier this year. For the stats, you know.

Interest Level = Wins - Losses + 2*Tyrus Time + 1.5*(Thabo + Noah Time) - .4*Bricked layups + 3*Red Kerr Candies

by cubbybear on Feb 23, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Du Dizzle

Can we send him to the D-League? Speaking of which, what are the Bulls doing with the filler from this trade?

by Stay Chisel on Feb 24, 2008 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I am not comfortable changing the starting line-up

I believe we have seen the importance of player chemistry this year . I do not mean whether players like each other. They can like each other but play terrible together. Our departed Corpse may have been a good person, well liked in the locker room but did not fit our team.

Taking minutes from young players could have resulted in players pressing when they were on the floor to prove themselves. We relied on a Corpse too much to rebound and he underperformed. BW's decline resulted in players needing to over-reach resulting in sub-par performances.

Noah and TY worked beautifully yesterday. Maybe it is a one day phenomenon. But it is better than anything we had all year. Why risk changing this?

by chgobr on Feb 23, 2008 1:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

This is a post from a deleted diary

It should be before my above post, but this is the best I can do.

A post by JeffD and Sue369 pointing out that Gooden might start over TT tomorrow and Hughes thinks he is going to start. Posts by Option27 and Matt regarding Boylan's starting lineup add to my concern about Boylan's starting lineup against Houston.

I have waited all season to see the Bulls play as well as they did last night. If Boylan risks disrupting the great chemistry between Noah and TT I will be dumbfounded. I can see Hughes coming off the bench in place of Du. Hughes clearly is a step up on Du. Boylan has been preaching "earn your minutes". The new motto may be "play great basketball and you are on the bench". I hope I'm over-reacting. Disrupting something that looked so promising last night is going to be difficult for me to tolerate. I have not been pleased with Boylan's rotations up to now, but have given him the benefit of the doubt by assuming he was showcasing the vets. I will be screaming "Boylan must go" if his starting lineup disrupts the great chemistry we saw last night.

by chgobr on Feb 23, 2008 1:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Rare opportunity

I've withheld judgment on Boylan due to injuries and other issues, but this is his chance. Last night's game was by far the most fun to watch this season because the Bulls played the whole game with an unbelieveable amount of energy. I'm not naive enough to believe this will neccessarily continue. They could easily lose their next two, but Boylan should ride this wave while it lasts.

Start TT. He earned it last night and has a much higher upside than Gooden. Work Gooden in behind TT and Noah, and play Gray when needed.
Start Thabo. He is the long term key to this team. He has improved consistently with increased minutes. His tos will drop with consistent minutes. (No tos last night and clutch open jumpers when the Nugs were threatening.) He makes Kirk and BG much more effective. Spot Hughes behind all three.

The biggest problem prior to the trade was the entitlement minutes given the Corpse and the fact that He'd whine when he didn't get them. Boylan has already made the stupid comment about earning a starting spot. Prove it by not starting the new guys.

by El Toro de Goro on Feb 23, 2008 3:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Gooden can play enough minutes, and moving and crap isn't easy, give him some time so he can learn the plays, the personnel, and buy a house. That and Tyrus is a basketball God.

Interest Level = Wins - Losses + 2*Tyrus Time + 1.5*(Thabo + Noah Time) - .4*Bricked layups + 3*Red Kerr Candies

by cubbybear on Feb 23, 2008 5:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Start neither of those goofs

What would starting Hughes and/or Gooden say to our guys Hinrich and Deng about earning minutes? It would be the highest point of Boylan's idiocy to throw either of those guys in the lineup while keeping his two best players on the bench (obviously I'm talking about Gordon and Deng).

by theundergroundman on Feb 23, 2008 3:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I have to say

even more enjoyable than Noah and Tyrus's individual performances, though the two points are intertwined, was the overall pace even when they were off the floor.

Gooden and Hughes are two athletic guys, so I can only assume they will aid this trend. Were Duhon to be relegated to the no play zone, the minutes could be easily distributed with 30/18 minute splits at each of the guard positions. Moreover, if Gooden can play some five, then Ty won't be punished for not being a "starting power forward".

The worst thing that could happen is that Boylan ignores the beauty of the Bulls performance last night and decides that we should just pound it into Gooden and sends Tyrus back to 20 minute territory.

by Kemp on Feb 23, 2008 3:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hughes and Gooden

must be thrilled with the idea of a more freed up offense and running game. Hopefully they can show something more than they did in CLE because of this.

Call me an idealist, but for the rest of the season, I'd play our seven young guys around equal mins, and use Gray behind Noah 8th ((32 x 7) + 16). Who needs these CLE guys? I know Noah and TT won't always be seeing an indifferent defense like DEN, and they won't always kick ass right now. Gooden and Hughes won't get you any closer to competing with the elite. Proof: they had LBJ and couldn't compete w/ SA, one of the worst Finals ever.

I wonder if Deng should be playing, or if he's risking injury more than necessary. In that case, the new acquisitions make fine veteran subs, just like Joe Smith woulda.

by marionette on Feb 23, 2008 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

One thing i want to point out is

TT had 2 early fouls and got one with like 7 mins in the 4th Quarter. I think he only ended up with 3 so that showed that hes calming down more especially when he doesnt have to worry about making a mistake and getting buried on the bench.

by eross226 on Feb 23, 2008 3:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not that worried about the rotation

While I hope that Tyrus and Thabo can start, I'm not totally worried if that's not the choice that comes up. However, I think for tomorrow night's game at least, our starting five better be the same as last night's.

I think we can have a 4 guard rotation of Hinrich, Gordon, Hughes, and Sef. Cut Du out entirely.

As far as the front court goes, I think we could be really effective if Gooden can play some 5, so he can get minutes at the 4 and 5. This gives him his minutes, allowing Noah some rest and without having to use Gray too much. I don't mind Gray but his is entirely a matchup situation. That way Tyrus can have his minutes at the 4 and Noc can have what's left at the 4 as well as some at the 3 backing up Deng. Not to mention Thabo can slide to the 3 for some minutes (and possibly even Hughes as well). Even though Deng's average is 33.8 min (down from 37.5 last season) I'd love to see him get some relief since I think playing all those minutes really wears on him (like playing 40 minutes in his 2nd game back from his achilles problem the first time, thus clearly aggravating it).

I think one reason we could not put away the Nuggets last night (other than JR playing out of his mind) was a little fatigue. Being shorthanded the guys brought great energy, but I think Tyrus and Jo probably need more time to build up stamina to play for that long consistently.

by Jaina on Feb 23, 2008 3:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

If Duhon returns next year,

heads around here will be exploding, methinks! Mine sure will.

Nuggets were a perfect test for my 3 guard rotation dream (their guards don't really post you). Just make sure Thabo checks JR from the get go and he likely never gets that rhythm. Game's never close.

But on a normal night, on a team with A.I. and Carmello, you want JR Smith shooting.

by marionette on Feb 23, 2008 4:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

100% is certain about next year

Duhon will not be in a Bulls uniform unless Gordon is traded

by Option27 on Feb 23, 2008 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My head was feeling reassured

until it got to the_unless_, so thanks for nothin'!

by marionette on Feb 24, 2008 1:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oops.

Bad spacing on the HTML.

by marionette on Feb 24, 2008 1:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But don't you think that

Du could be the new Grif? He's a battle tested veteran who could come in and be a "calming influence", like Lubriderm or Prozac.

Obviously, this isn't a great honor or distinction for Duhon or the team. But it would be better than nothing, for those times that nothing else is working, or in times of injury or foul trouble to taller, better shooting guards.

Also, for continuity sake, you'd think that Boylan will wean the team off of Du at PG.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Feb 24, 2008 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hughes Is An Asset

One of the most encouraging things I've heard Hughes say since the trade is that he wants to get back to a slashing style of basketball now that he's out of the stagnant "watch Lebron" Cleveland offense.

The Bulls do not have anyone who can get to the rim and draw fouls. BG looks ridiculous whenever he tries to get to the lane, Luol is not quick enough and Thabo's not ready yet. I think that Larry will greatly improve our drive and kick game.

Balancing the minutes will be key - I think that, unfortunately, Thabo will end up losing on this deal. Heck, even without Hughes, I'm pretty tired of seeing Boylan subbing Thabo out with 6 minutes to go in the first quarter and then not seeing him again until Kirk gets his inevitable 2nd foul in the 2nd quarter. I hope that Paxson actually is calling the shots - that's our only chance at making the playoffs.

Given the lack of 'stars' on the trade market this summer, any thoughts on using picks, players to acquire a true PG like Derrick Rose?

by Gene Banks on Feb 23, 2008 4:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hughes

I am also hoping that Hughes gets to play to his strengths as a slasher instead of what happened in Cleveland. Deng is still healing and doesn't look strong in that role (or his jump shot either at the moment) and having someone else who can do that will help the offense. I think most people wouldn't feel badly about having Hughes out there if we all had an assurance that Duhon is the one that gets his minutes cut. Seems like Du narrowly missed getting traded so you'd think he'd be the last one off the bench.

by cranscape on Feb 23, 2008 5:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

IMO

Deng's doing more for charity than the Bulls, lately. He hasn't realized that he's playing for a contract yet, I don't think. Then again, maybe he's hoping to play great in the end of the season and the playoffs, like last year.

Interest Level = Wins - Losses + 2*Tyrus Time + 1.5*(Thabo + Noah Time) - .4*Bricked layups + 3*Red Kerr Candies

by cubbybear on Feb 23, 2008 5:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps

he already knows Chicago is his best bet (especially with what teams have room for contracts like his over the summer). He hasn't had a chance to make up for a mediocre start because of his injury and I am hoping he does show up for the second half the the season. He is young and this contract he is working for now won't be his last. He needs to play reasonably well and get a reasonable contract and stability. I'd rather he do that here rather than elsewhere.

by cranscape on Feb 23, 2008 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think he's just been banged up all year

once he gets his feet under him, he'll be good again.

by Freethefro on Feb 23, 2008 6:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yep

by sue369 on Feb 23, 2008 6:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The bulls could be this years Warriors

Wouldn't it be great to see the bulls sneak into the playoffs and take down the celtics? I mean it is possible if Noah and Tyrus keep playing and getting better.

by armstrong2389 on Feb 23, 2008 5:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Celtics would be a tall order

but I could see us taking down the Pistons.

by Freethefro on Feb 23, 2008 6:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

injury is the only thing the Celtics have to fear this year. If they stay healthy down the stretch they've proven to be more consistent than all of the other teams. The Bulls would have to string together a lot of wins before I could see them winning a round of the playoffs against anyone besides Miami. We've not yet had a real winning streak. I'd much rather we get the Pistons because at least there we have a good season track record.

by cranscape on Feb 23, 2008 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

KG goes down

The house of cards looked very shaky. Like without him, they're about as good as the Cavs.

Interest Level = Wins - Losses + 2*Tyrus Time + 1.5*(Thabo + Noah Time) - .4*Bricked layups + 3*Red Kerr Candies

by cubbybear on Feb 23, 2008 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Youd figure

Thabo should not lose any minutes, hes been doing real well with his minutes, and i like the idea of moving him to sf. He rebounds real well, has the length and ability to guard other sf, and has a game like dengs, he could knock down those midrange shots, and slash fairly well, in that since he is better than noch as the backup sf, however noch still brings a different style to that position which makes him another good backup. Play deng as a starter, have thabo come off the bench for deng, unless neither deng or thabos style of play isnt working, then you bring in noch...that should be the smarter game plan.

The guard thing is more intresting, Hinrich is still the best pg on the team despite what people here think of him. At the same regard, Gordon is still our best scorer. Hughes adds versatility, and Its still a wonder of how effective hell be with us, but one thing that should prevent him from starting is his ability to get injured. This should open up minutes at some point for gordon and thabo. Duhon is still a really good backup pg, but i wouldnt use him for anything more than bailing kirk out when he gets in foul trouble or just tired. Im still iffy on having thabo and gordon out at the same time, though gordon and hughes might be a better combo to see.

For the pf position, i still wont mind having gooden start, and then have tyrus come off the bench for him. Noch i think should just be used if we need some 3 point shooting. It would be better than any three guard line up, just because neither thabo nor hughes are great shooters. So noch would be our tallest 3pt shooter (chucker). Noah is great as our center, and aaron gray will be a big body. I think it should be mandatory that when gray is playing center, we have thomas and deng in to make up the lack of energy, mobility, and athleticism gray will bring. Him and thomas should be able to create mismatches for most front courts in the nba.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 23, 2008 7:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Gray

Gray would work well with Thomas and Deng not just because their speed makes up for the lack of his, but also Gray is actually pretty good at passing and Thomas in particular benefits under the basket from that. For long stretches Thomas wasn't getting a lot of offense given to him this season so perhaps with the big guy there facilitating it a little bit Thomas can be worked into the offense more. Also a memo to the guards. I am really hoping that without the dead weight we can have a more balanced offense. Five players on the court who are a scoring threats makes a big difference.

by cranscape on Feb 23, 2008 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Matt undersells Noc to us

Neither Deng, nor Thabo, nor Hughes is any kind of 3pt perimeter threat like Noc. So trying to sit Noc more or find him some minutes at 4(taking from Tyrus) won't solve any problems.

Noc has to be a 15-30 minute backup SF. This team needs a 3pt perimeter threat beyond just Kirk and Gordon.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 24, 2008 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree.

Well, sort of. 15-30 is quite the range. I'd say 10-15 if the offense is rolling fine without him. He's a liability on defense (when Deng is healthy and with Thabo on the team) and he's not the greatest facilitator on offense. He's a chucker. If he's not starting (he shouldn't), and the offense is running fine, there is no need for him to play other than when Gordon is sitting. If the offense isn't doing anything, fine. However, I think you need to see what this new offensive rotation can do before we determine Noc's fate.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 24, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You underestimate spreading the floor

as a way of facilitating the offense.

Deng is not a 3pt threat.
Hughes is not a 3pt threat.
Thabo is not a 3pt threat.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 24, 2008 10:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You over-estimate it.

Hinrich is. Gordon is. Deng constantly stepped out to w/in 2 ft of the 3 pt line last year. Those guys should be playing at least 2/3 of the time. Two of the three should be out there for 80% of the time. That's enough.

Nocioni can go out there for 12 mpg. If the offense isn't facilitated, play him more. Don't be Skiles and say you have to have a chucker out there no matter what.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 24, 2008 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noch is a good 3pt shooter

He is also a chucker, and the closest thing to a black hole that the bulls have (but hes no wally nor randolf). I think noch is good for knocking down the three, but its only in the situations when or/if thomas deng and thabo cannot get the job done with midrange shooting and slashing, or if for whatever reason we need tres. Noch is a valuable asset, he can quite consistently knock down that three ball, but you cant over look the fact that the man is a chucker, and is wild on both offense and defense. He is a guy that should be used sparingly to disrupt the defense.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 24, 2008 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This might as well be a reply to Tiger...

But the numbers really don't support your Noc-bashing. He actually has the second highest +/- on/off court net value per 100 possessions.

+7.1 Noah
+1.8 Noce
+1.5 Thomas
+1.0 Thabo
+0.5 Duh
+0.4 Kirk
-0.3 Deng
-1.1 Gray
-7.3 Gordon

(For reference BW was -4.2 and Smith - 1.0)

Notice where Gordon is... And by how much...

And this is before the Nuggets-game. It will be better for the plus-guys and worse for the minus guys after that one. (minus Duh)

by Bass on Feb 24, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're making progress.

From single game to season + -. That certainly shows who's been better this season. I think. I'll still look at careers when they have been on the same team for approximately the same amount of time.

I feel sorry for you that you think Nocioni is the 2nd best player on the team and Gordon is the worst.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 24, 2008 4:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hah! You're funny!

It's late here so I'll reply properly another time

Good luck in the game tonight! :)

by Bass on Feb 24, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Look

I'm not evaluating anybody's career here. (Although one would think that a player in his mid twenties would progress, not regress.) This year is all that matters and Benny has been bad all year as the numbers clearly show.

And BG sucking badly while declining a contract of 50/5 rather demanding somwhere in he vicinity of 12-15 per is just mindboggling to me. Thank someone BG and Lu didn't sign their contracts extensions.

And I never said that Noc was the second best player on the team. But I will say he is one of the 5 best and should be starting.

The best game we played all year is the one after the trade, before the new guys came in. That starting lineup had something going and it would be foolish to not see if we can build on that. (But then we have Boylan so nothing surprises me there)

I say give the PT to the youngsters and see what happens.

Oh, and no need to feel sorry for me. I'm doing quite well, thank you. :)

I'm including the newly updated stats from 82games for your improved insight into Bulls basketball.

This is net +- adjusted per 100 possessions for the whole season.

Noah +8,6
Thomas +3,8
Thabo +3,5
Noce +3,3
Kirk -0,1
Duh -0,2
Gray -3,5
Deng -3,6
Gordon -7,3

LH -1,4
Gooden -15,9 (But they have not played enough minutes for a statistical basis.)

Also Noah is the ONLY Bull with a positive ON-floor for 100 pos.

Benny the Bull is the ONLY Bull with a positive OFF-floor per 100 pos.

by Bass on Feb 28, 2008 8:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

BTW.... link your advanced stats.

The ones I looked at have different numbers. Not as ugly there.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 24, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If I only knew how to link...

However I don't.

How about I give you directions instead?

82games.com

bulls page on the left

Now just click each players name and the numbers pop right up! Amazing isn't it!

by Bass on Feb 28, 2008 8:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Straight from the coach...

"Interim coach Jim Boylan said Hughes and Gooden would come off the bench their first game."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080223-bulls-hughes-gooden,1,7707 008.story

First game...I guess we'll have to see how long that lasts.

by cranscape on Feb 23, 2008 8:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I hoped that would be the case.

we can see how they perform and work from there.

the thing that scares me about the article is the "Job Review" section. i shudder to think boylan may return next season.

by Jaina on Feb 23, 2008 10:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmmm,

"He told me to coach the team the way I want to coach it and will evaluate when the time comes". Well Jimbo he also said he wants the young guys developed and they can't develope without actually playing...a lot. Not that I want you to keep your job but if you want any chance in hell of being back next year and unless the young guys positively fall apart play them and play them often.

by sue369 on Feb 24, 2008 10:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great news!!!

by chgobr on Feb 24, 2008 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Man Derek Rose is gonna be a great player

we should try to move up in the draft and get this guy.

by eross226 on Feb 23, 2008 10:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Ehh

I think draft picks are usually gambles no matter how high you pick. If you are a crappy team, then its easier to spend alot of time to develop your draft picks, but i mean any high draft pick that comes to chicago probably wont be given enough playing time to quickly reach anything resembling the elite level of basketball. However, making it to the playoffs often should attract the already elite players who have yet to win a 'ship.

If the bulls make it to the playoffs this year, and even next, then when the guys like lebron and d-wade are accessible via free agency or something, we could make some offers to get them, and they will be more willing to play for us just because they would hopefully feel that we were a team nearing the top of the hump, and they can give us that push we need.

Draft picks are nice, but unless theres a sure fire star like a lebron james, then its not worth it, at least for the bulls atm. The bulls dont need a complete rebuilding yet, sure none of our players can get to a championship as is, but were young enough that we can be patient for that right player to come around and make us a contender.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 23, 2008 10:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

so the bulls can have yet another combo guard

on the roster?

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 23, 2008 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Derrick Rose is a PG

He is scouted as the player closest to Jason Kidd in the last 10 years. His rebounding is better than Kidd, but his passing trails Kidd.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 24, 2008 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

did you watch the game last night?

he's another combo guard, like Roy.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 24, 2008 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

use the draft thread, jeez

http://blogabull.com/story/2007/11/20/172814/31

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 24, 2008 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm looking forward to the rest of the season...

..if we can avoid the Celtics in the playoffs, this might get interesting...

by bullsfaninbigapple on Feb 23, 2008 10:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I still can't believe the Lakers got Gasol

What the hell

"Jerome James PER.. is 46.68... Do that trade now! Screw Horford, we don't need him. Jerome is a monster!!!!!!!!!" - BNeL21

by NittanyBull on Feb 24, 2008 12:03 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Derrick Rose is overrated the sleeper is Bayless

Rose was just throwing the ball up at the hoop on those drives. If he were playing in the NBA those would have been blocked or way off. He is alright, I kind of don't think the bulls should take a player from Memphis because odds are they are a thug.

by armstrong2389 on Feb 24, 2008 12:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

D. Rose

is a quality guy, Sim. high school, never got into any trouble. Don't lump him in with Joey Dorsey please! But yes, I think the second best player in the nation is Bayless.

by Freethefro on Feb 24, 2008 9:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lol.

Just throwing the ball at the rim. Lol.

by Blacknight23 on Feb 24, 2008 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Possible global-climate correlation

Hopefully the aptly-named "H[e]inrich Event" presages that the Bull's "sudden cooling" of the first part of this season will be followed by a "slower warming" that culminates in - if nothing else - a respectable playoff showing, which might even establish a positive tone for 2008-2009.

by jpx7 on Feb 24, 2008 4:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Long and the short of it

Guard rotations of Kirk-Thabo and BG-Hughes solves our "midget backcourt" problem which, in my opinion, was the team's second biggest issue (behind Wallace). In each case, you have a good combination of size, defense and scoring ability.

This should be obvious, but I am really concerned that Boylan fails to recognize this. If at any point we see BG, Kirk and Duhon on the floor at the same time, Boylan should be relieved of his duties immediately.

by Stay Chisel on Feb 24, 2008 9:59 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm still just extremely happy

that the Reinsdorf-Paxson tandem was able to admit a mistake and ship Wallace on out of here. The way it happened just proves that when you can't be good, you can be lucky.

The Bulls were lucky that the Cavs were unable to land one of the many quality PG's that Lebron was requesting, giving them trade envy of the league's other elite teams. They were also lucky that the Cavs fell for the "make a big splash" or "go get a guy who's been there before" lines of thinking in Wallace, despite how washed-up he's been.

The Bulls were also lucky to have Joe Smith at a time when he wasn't injured, and was hitting his mid-range jumper consistently, even while playing extensive minutes due to showcasing, and they were lucky that his salary fit into this trade perfectly.

And of course the Bulls were lucky that the Cavs were desperate to rid themselves of a contract such that they would entertain bringing on Wallace.

But this is not to bash Paxson and Reinsdorf, as I have too much in the past. Good job, Bulls brass, for having the brass ones to do what was right in this case. (There. I feel better.)

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Feb 24, 2008 11:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Anyone else read this opinionated gem?

By John Jackson

He's pretty convinced that the Bulls are getting a superstar this summer with Hughes or Gordon likely to be shipped out.

I'm not too sure O'Neal and McGrady are the superstars needed to get this group over the top.

Also, with all this talk about getting that interior scorer, it has me wondering how long we'll actually be able to enjoy the Noah/Thomas frontcourt.

You would figure Tyrus as the guy who would have to leave to make room for that proven scorer unless they give him the Gordon law and convince him he's best suited to come off the bench for his whole tenure here.

by Option27 on Feb 24, 2008 12:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

And we should believe in Jackson

more than Sam Smith because why? Pax hasn't traded any of his guys so far, why would he do it for one of those grossly overpaid, over-the-hill underachievers?

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 24, 2008 12:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Which is why I wrote "Opinionated gem"

; )

by Option27 on Feb 24, 2008 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This trade allows us to look closely at

our basketball chemistry. Does Gooden and Hughes fit in? Does Noah and TT have the ability to be an impact inside presence? Will Kirk fit with Hughes? I know I posted this, but I cannot over-emphasize basketball chemistry. If Hughes regains his ability to score inside and he is paired with Gordon, it is possible Gordon won't be constantly double-teamed and could becoming the dominating player he thinks he is. I love Noah and TT so I am biased. But if they can impact the game inside you may see Kirk and Thabo's game improve. With the demise of the Corpse (I couldn't resist) this team may be a minor adjustment from entering the NBA elite.

by chgobr on Feb 24, 2008 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

john jackson

Didn't even have an inkling big ben was about to get shipped out. Why should I believe him now? TT never shoulda been beched this season in the first place. With matchups i.e. Cleveland last year I can see the bulls actually making the ECF. It all depends on boylan and his rotations.

by Blacknight23 on Feb 24, 2008 2:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs