The 'Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, and the Cavaliers' thread

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 21, 2008 11:32 PM CST Comment 39 comments

I'm putting this up as a way to steer the conversation of Cavs basketball off the main trade thread.

I see the reasons that Ben Wallace should be more comfortable in Cleveland. He's playing with LeBron and Mike Brown's non-offense, so his travesty of an offensive game this season won't be as apparent. He gets to play alongside BigZ which supposedly to help him roam on defense. And he should be motivated once again, especially in a playoff series.

Here's what I see being the sad truth though: while that may all be true, the guy won't be effective as a roamer on defense because he's completely lost his athleticism. I thought his one last trait wasn't shotblocking or rebounding, it was man-defending centers using his strength and veteran 'charms'. Especially on the defensive glass, the guy is awful at this point in his career.

The 'motivation' may (as sickening as this is) be part of the remedy, but hopefully for the Cavs sake they have the sense not to play him too much, as we've seen even motivation rarely reanimates him for the game.

So farewell to the 'corpse' (which I stand by as a solid nickname)

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Farewell to Joe Smith

He was a great upgrade over PJ Brown. If the Bulls had been as good as everyone thought they'd be, he really could have been a big difference-maker. It's pointless to play an old guy big minutes on a lousy team, though.

Too bad for the Cavs that his knees have probably been ground into dust by now too, but oh well.

by Big D on Feb 21, 2008 11:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Goodbye Joe

You will be missed.

by gobulls1124 on Feb 22, 2008 12:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

yeah Joe is a class act

i won't miss him though

by Orlando Woolridge on Feb 22, 2008 12:59 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Sad to see Joe go.

He was one of the team's most consistent players and rarely took a bad shot. Smart player.

by BiNgO on Feb 22, 2008 1:14 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Reasons to add Joe to the deal

Financial reasons are a give in. The deals need to match within the CBA framework. But also, since the core of the deal is Wallace for Gooden that would still leave us with one too many bigs that would lead to fewer minutes for Noah and Thomas. By trading Smith too you open up two front court positions and only bring back one in return.

I like Joe Smith. I really didn't want to trade him. But I'm still rooting for him. I hope the Cavs do well.

by NBA Observer on Feb 22, 2008 8:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Joe's going to pay dividends for the next season

and a half for the calves, and then they're screwed.

by KT on Feb 22, 2008 5:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

or...

they'll turn his expiring deal into more parts. It's almost to the point that expiring deals are worth more than a good player or good draft pick.

by CubFan81 on Feb 22, 2008 6:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

acquiring West

happened at the right time for the Cavs...looks like Gibson's gonna be out for up to 6 weeks

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 22, 2008 8:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Matt, did you see what Hollinger wrote?

Free Insider Link

I have had at least one scout tell me his[Wallace as if I needed to add this] poor results this year have been partly because he just wasn't playing hard; one wonders if the relocation will improve his spirits.

Only one John? How many scouts talk to him?

by NBA Observer on Feb 22, 2008 8:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The big problem with Wallace

I hope he steps up his game. I think he'll have his motivation now. However, he has really regressed this season. Ben Wallace hasn't blocked out all season on the defensive glass. He's been out rebounded by Glen Davis and Samuel Dalembert. When you're 6'8", all that muscle is helpful, but you still must own your space on the defensive glass and box out your man.

I hope Ben produces for the Cavs. But it's very likely he's the exact same player for Cleveland that he has been for Chicago, a lousy one.

by NBA Observer on Feb 22, 2008 9:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

favorite misconception I'm reading so far

Ben Wallace: Intimidator!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 22, 2008 9:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I've seen more "enforcer"

than "intimidator." I'm sure the Cleveland rookies (are there any?) are worried about Wallace's mandatory 2 game suspension policy.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 22, 2008 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Joe Smith

would've been a perfect fit if the Bulls were where they expected to be. He's probably the team MVP at this point of the season. It isn't his fault, but that's a sign that:

the Big 3 seriously regressed this year as a group
the 2 Sophs (TnT) didn't progress as expected (until recently).

In other words, he wouldn't be the MVP if they were in the top of the conference.

He should do well with the Cavs. His stay in Chicago was far too short for this Bull's fan.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Feb 22, 2008 9:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Wallace

I do not think Wallace is capable of playing above-average defense at this point. I don't care who he is teamed with. The reality is that he got owned by pretty much everyone he played. Based on my daily review of box scores, it looked to me like his man was getting his season average in points and rebounds every night.

For example, when we played the TWolves in that back to back series, Al Jefferson got his season averages 2 nights in a row. Boylan and some analysts made some comments that Ben did a nice job D'ing up Al. I think their justification was that Al was capable of putting up bigger numbers than that. If that's the case, then someone who holds Kobe to 60 points did a nice job because he is capable of scoring 81.

Like Gene & Georgetti steakhouse, Wallace is all reputation and no substance at this point. Declining physical ability coupled with a lack of motivation makes him worthless.

What's really funny to me is how Detroit used Ben Wallace to kill their division rivals. When Wallace was with the Pistons, he played awesome defense and helped them win a championship. Then, Ben went to the Bulls (who at the time were seen as the biggest threat to Detroit), slowed the development of younger players, created problems for the coach and tied up cap room. Now, he is on the Cavs (the Pistons' current division threat) and I expect more bad news. Maybe in a year he will go to Milwaukee and destroy that team. Meanwhile, the Pistons keep winning.

by Stay Chisel on Feb 22, 2008 10:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I bet that the Cavs wish they'd gotten Duhon now

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3255778

by snley on Feb 22, 2008 10:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

yeah, but they got Delonte West

who should be a solid stop-gap solution, at least.

by Bayern Munich on Feb 22, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

cough

look below

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 22, 2008 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This trade helps more than it hurts.

Bye Joe. Bye Wallace. Bye Griff.
Addition by subtraction is what it is.
Hello Noah. Hello Tyrus. Hello Thabo.
The minutes you've been seeking, are now available.

If Pax says he's counting on his young guys to contribute, this is what was needed. I'll take a guard who's not afraid to shoot over a center who can't make a lay-up. It's more accepting to watch Tyrus or Noah make a mistake or a bad pass than to see Ben Wallace blow an open lay-up or drop a pass when he's WIDE open.

Let Lu get back healthy (and lower his off-season asking price). Play Thabo more. Definitely play Tyrus and Noah, and don't play Du since he's not an expiring deal anymore.

This trade isn't a blockbuster like they've been talking about, but what was needed more than anything was a shake-up. And, at least it is that.

by kingj41 on Feb 22, 2008 1:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hello Thabo?

This creates a logjam at the guard position. I don't see how this helps Thabo...especially when Thabo got reduced minutes with Gordon back. Maybe Boylan would be start with the rotations...I wouldn't bet on it though. Overall, I still like the trade because our frontcourt needed to go or be benched.

by Parrotman on Feb 22, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Boylan would be smart*

by Parrotman on Feb 22, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

w/ respect to Thabo

Wouldn't you rather see Thabo on the court getting Griff's undeserved minutes. I'm not saying Thabo should start, but the only thing better would have been getting rid of Duhon also.

I don't think Thabo's here to save the day, but he'll be in the guard rotation w/ Kirk, Hughes, and BG. And since Lu's still hurt, I'd like to see Thabo at the 3 as well.

by kingj41 on Feb 22, 2008 1:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Griffin's minutes

Griffin really doesn't get any minutes at all. Boylan was using him because Hinrich and Gordon were injured and that left Thabo and Duhon as the only guards on the team. This trade should help Tyrus and Noah but looks to be bad for Thabo. That's what I was saying. For the record, I actually think Thabo should start. Unless Hughes miraculously plays like his career year in Washington...Thabo should be the starter.

by Parrotman on Feb 22, 2008 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope

Thabo starts too.

by sue369 on Feb 22, 2008 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

thabo starts

I guess that would mean two more qualified guards would be coming off the bench? I like thabo but he is an inexperienced hughes with maybe better rebounding skills. Been playing well lately but I dont know if he deserves a starting spot (who knows who deserves what with boylan coaching). Then again I think gordon should start so blah.

by Sambossanova on Feb 25, 2008 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I love Joe

But even his great play was backing up Tyrus and Noah.

He had to go

by Option27 on Feb 22, 2008 3:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Trade with Bulls was unnecessary for Cavs

Based on the comments on the three-team trade, they needed two things: perimeter shooting and consistency in the frontcourt. They would have been better off getting Kurt Thomas with Wally and Delonte. Taking on Wallace's contract is worse than Hughes' contract.

I'm really surprised the commentary on this is favoring the Cavs. Has anyone been watching Wallace this year?

by nateroth on Feb 22, 2008 4:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

that's a good point

but they needed to dump salary, too.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 22, 2008 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right. Couldn't get Thomas.

Who else was going to take on Hughes? (Isiah?) And Gooden, who they've been trying to deal for longer than we've been trying to deal Wallace?

I don't think it's going out on a limb to predict Wallace will be helpful there. And as someone (Matt?) stated, playing 4 on 5 when Cleveland's stagnant offense is typically LeBron 1 on 5 shouldn't hurt the same. Where they have LBJ, we had Ben Gordon!

by marionette on Feb 23, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Can't believe the Cavs won

tonight dressing like 8 people, 2 freshly signed from the d-league.

guess damon jones randomly scoring 27 pts helps..

by Jaina on Feb 22, 2008 10:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

They would lose

if "you know who" were in the game.

"YES,WE CAN!"-B.OBAMA.

by Azabullsfan on Feb 22, 2008 11:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sportswriters don't get out much

This, from a Cleveland Plain Dealer columnist:
-------
Wallace is untrustworthy at the end of games because of a baffling assortment of shots at the foul line that were forged under a spreading chestnut tree in a village smithy. He can, however, presumably finish a pick-and-roll with James with more emphasis than Z, who costs James a couple of assists per game with blown layups.
-------
Apparently, these guys don't spend a lot of time watching film on new Cavs. Ben is one of the worst big man finishers in the game and will only try to dunk when he's COMPLETELY wide open. Since Z can't finish either, Lebron might just start wearing "NY 2010" jerseys to celebrate his escape from Cleveland.

by Gene Banks on Feb 23, 2008 8:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

That's funny.

It figures to be interesting, anyway. Sometimes I think the "winner" of the trade will be the team that doesn't play the guys they got!

That'll be harder for Cavs to do, since it's about half the roster.

I think it's hard for outsiders to believe how much of an absolute blank/zero a player can be on the offensive end, until they see it for themselves, game after game. DET really was perfect for Ben 'cause each of the other 4 had strong one-on-one and post capabilities.

I only resumed watching the Bulls this closely again just prior to the Wallace signing, and I assumed it was a coup. But I also assumed they'd keep Chandler.

by marionette on Feb 24, 2008 2:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Downey has

a great column about how we all thought it was a coup getting Big Ben.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080223-downey-paxson-bulls,1,6705 611.column

By the way, notice all of his corpse-like imagery :). Much to the nickname-haters' chagrin, he says the Cavs used to be known as "the Cadavers", and now have a "big stiff" in Big Ben. And later on also says that Ben got just two more baskets than a cadaver. (Although I have yet to see the nickname "the Corpse" explicitly used in print.)

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Feb 24, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess maybe all of Mike Downey's

readers agreed with the signing because that's the kind of fans that those columns are intended for. Which is why I this blog's archives are great, I have proof that I didn't fall into the all category.

by Scotter on Feb 24, 2008 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

link

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 24, 2008 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like Ben is happy to be gone

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/viewcast/2008/02/24/index.html?contestId=22407&v endorId=2008022405&vendorVisitTeam=29&vendorHomeTeam=5&pageType=recap

All four new players received loud ovations throughout the evening. The Cavaliers gave a video tribute to them before the game, fans were given ''Welcome to the Family'' signs and several ''Big Ben'' T-shirts were spotted in the crowd.

Wallace and Smith were acquired from Chicago while West and Szczerbiak were picked up from Seattle in the three-team, 11-player deal that was finalized minutes before the deadline.

Wallace, the target of criticism by Bulls fans, enjoyed his new home.

''The crowd was great,'' he said. ''I didn't get booed. That's new for me.''

by Big D on Feb 24, 2008 10:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs