Mid-Season Review II: Ben Gordon
[From the diaries. Judging by yesterday, Gordon's quite the divisive topic. So lets do it again, heh. -Matt]
Given some of today's discussion, it seemed prudent to discuss Ben Gordon. Ben Gordon often seems to suffer from a lack of context. Gordon seems to inspire people to make lazy comparisons (Think Vinnie Johnson). Or inspire them to believe that every player in the NBA at least an inch taller than little Ben is automatically a better defender. Or people allow the falling down and turnovers with the shot clock running down to overwhelm everything else Gordon does on the court. And that's just the on the court stuff. One of the biggest reasons I pay attention to statistics is because statistics provide context. That way I hopefully end up saying less stupid stuff because I can place things in context.
So here's some context. Despite all of those incredibly frustrating turnovers in key situations this season, overall Gordon's turnovers are actually at a career low, down 3% from last season (That's 1 less TO per 36 min). At least one of my predictions proved accurate. After the horrible 1st month he shared with every other Bulls player, Gordon has shot 45% from the field, 45% from 3 point range, and averaged 22 points with only 2.1 TOs per 36 min. Since December he's played at least as well as he did last season on offense.
Interestingly, Gordon's performance at SG this year nearly exactly matches his performance there last season, posting the same 18.4 PER according to 82 games. It's his play in the point guard role that has been disappointing this year given the positive signs he showed last year in that role, dropping from a 31 PER last year to an 11 this year in that role. Most of that time came early in the year when Gordon was often the only offensive threat on the floor when he was playing PG, and simply couldn't carry the team or stay on his feet.
Gordon strangely has by far the worst adjusted plus/minus on the team at negative 8.7 pts, but he's far from alone in the NBA when it comes to strangely poor numbers. The sample size is still really small for adjust plus/minus. The team has played better offense with Gordon on the court, but the defense has been flat awful. Gordon's obviously not a great defender, but he's also not as bad as the numbers suggest. Part of the problem is that Gordon led the team in minutes the 1st month of the season and gets penalized the most for the team's extremely poor start. Gordon also finished 2nd on the team in adjusted plus minus last season so this isn't a consistent trend. When you look at counterpart PER, Hinrich, Gordon, and Duhon have all slipped defensively this year, the PER of opposing backcourts increased 4 points this year.
Gordon's not the perfect player, but he's basically tied with Joe Smith for the best offensive rating on the team at 107, while also using the most possessions. In short, he's still the best offensive player on the team and the guy you should want taking shots. If you feel the need to compare Gordon to somebody then a decent comparison for Gordon is Ray Allen. Here's the comparison through the end of last season and including this season. They're both great shooters that don't post up or get to the FT line much, and average defenders at best. Gordon isn't as good as Ray at coming off screens or scoring in the paint, but Gordon is better at creating off the dribble and has had to carry a larger % of the offense than Ray did at the same age. Ray was the slightly better player at the same age. Gordon's not perfect, but he's the only guy on this team that can carry a team offensively for a sustained period.
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221 comments
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Yeah
by gobulls1124 on Feb 11, 2008 11:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
vinnieben
Ben Gordon 6'2" 200 lbs.
Vinnie Johnson never was an established starter, was a spot-starter at best.
Ben Gordon has yet to establish himself as a starter; the jury's out if ever will.
Vinnie Johnson had a 7 year run on the Pistons during the 1980's, during which he averaged 19.3 pts. Per 36 minutes.
Ben Gordon averages 21.5 per 36 minutes.
Vinnie Johnson averaged 4.9 asists/36 min.
Ben Gordon averages 3.4 assists/36 min.
Vinnie Johnson shot 46.8%
Ben Gordon shoots 43%
The only meaningful statistical difference between the two is that Gordon is a much better 3 point shooter, while Vinnie was more of a mid-range jump shooter, and averaged less than 1 attempt per game.
But the similarities in their impact on a game is what comes up again and again...small, couldn't handle well enough to run the point, couldn't defend well enough to play the 2, but could be brought into a game and counted on to put up instant offense. Vinnie's role on those Pistons teams and BG's role on these Bulls are, for all intents, interchangeable.
The main difference is that Vinnie had a better surrounding cast. Gordon's minutes, no doubt, would shrink if this Bulls team was championship caliber.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 12:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
you could at least cherry pick better stats
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 8:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Alec doesn't understand that stuff.
His whole argument hinges on Gordon "not being an established starter" along with Vinnie. Gordon started the entire second half of last season for a 49-win team, a team that swept the defending champs, a team that finally showed up to make the Pistons series respectable.
But yeah, he's not an established starter.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 8:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not this year,
He's a short, unreliable defender who's willing to shoot his decent jumpshot.
There's a player profile hidden in there somewhere.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 8:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lazy player profile part 2: Andrew Toney
He was a (listed, before people have a shit fit about when they saw Gordon at the local Dominicks) 6'3" SG (gasp!) who started 81 games for the 82-83 championship Sixers, his 3rd (and age 25) season. Coincidentally (or not), that was after 2 seasons of coming off the bench.
Through that title season for Toney and through this half-season for Gordon, here's the comparison of their cumulative careers at that point. Again, Ben stands out differently as more of a 3-point shooter (worse eFG% overall), turns over the ball less (but also has fewer assists). Toney got to the line slightly more, which we all hope Ben can get better at (especially since he's proven to be a better FT% than Toney thus far).
Anyway, have at that old-tops. I'm sure there's better or worse evidence for comparison when comparing single seasons.
I guess the point is that team won a title and he was important. They also had Moses Malone and Julius Erving and Mo Cheeks, which emphasizes my general feeling on Gordon: the Bulls should be accumulating additional better players, not casting off their already good players.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That was a really entertaining team.
I do remember Toney. He was a good player, but I'd say BG is better.
Matt, I like Ben Gordon. I'm just preparing myself to cut the umbilical chord. The team just isn't showing a lot of support for him. Low-balling him last summer was a pretty loud statement. Also, Ben has made it clear he sees himself as a superstar and doesn't plan on settling for less in a contract.
I don't know how much more there is to say about it. Like it or not, I can't see any way he's in the team's long range plans.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on
by Takeaseat on Feb 12, 2008 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To go back to Philadelphia,
He spent pretty much his entire career coming off the bench, yet still averaged just over 20 points per game.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent comparisons
by exult463 on Feb 12, 2008 4:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If you take a look Alec
by Takeaseat on Feb 12, 2008 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What would be your guess
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 9:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Alec...
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's interesting
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think most do.
I think it's near-impossible to follow a team closely and not think about how they can get better. I think it's part of wanting "your team" to win. Sue does a good job of it, though.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think alot of fans watch from the coach's or
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying
If it makes you feel more of a man to keep insulting me have at it.
by sue369 on Feb 12, 2008 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't an insult.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't in a good
I think I need to take a break from here for a while.
by sue369 on Feb 12, 2008 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The USG%'s are
Nobody here is comparing Ben Gordon's talent to Vinny Johnson's. Clearly Gordon has produced at a higher level at an earlier age. But a mid-20s Ben Gordon to an early-30's Vinny Johnson? I think it's a fairly good comparison.
by YaoPau on Feb 12, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1st, Johnson was 26 when that 7 year
Johnson was never the best offensive player on his team typically he was third or lower. Gordon's played significantly more minutes and carried a much bigger load. You harp on Gordon and Johnson not being full time PGs, but a big difference remains. Gordon is good enough to be a full time SG, Johnson wasn't. They may have both come of the bench, but their roles weren't the same.
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate your
The comparison that I've been trying to forward is Vinnie's role and how he performed in that role for the great run of the mid-late '80's Pistons, and the role that Gordon seems to thrive in whenever he's played in similar game situations for this Bulls team.
It's no slight on Gordon. Vinnie Johnson was an essential part of two championship teams. He absolutely saved their bacon time after time. But those Pistons had Isiah and Joe Dumars as their guards--one of the best point guards of all time and a Hall of Fame defender.
A lot of people here have been clambering for a `true point guard'--a la Isiah. If the Bulls had that, it would make undeniable sense to play Thabo at the 2 and bring BG in for `instant offense.'
In my view, Gordon is a role player...and to compare him to possibly the best in history at that particular role is a compliment to him, not an indictment of his shortcomings.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 9:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sure it is
As the refrain goes, LeBron James would supply so many 'instant offense' points off the bench that Red Kerr would squeal.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I guess you're right,
Pegging Gordon as a role player is not an indictment of his shortcomings. It is, however, an acknowledgement of them.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeesh
Johnson wasn't a better player than Gordon, and he doesn't even rate when compared Ginobili, Havlicek, McHale, or Toni Kukoc. Simply coming off the bench first isn't really a role either.
You're giving Isiah Thomas and Vinnie Johnson a lot of credit for being teammates with Laimbeer, Rodman, Dumars, and Dantley.
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm talikng about a little guy
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and you're wrong about that
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Listen, I get your point.
The problem I have with Gordon is that you have to construct your whole on-court team structure around compensating for his liabilities. That's why I called him the First Falling Domino. I happen to feel that he's best suited to play a part-time role.
If you fall behind and want to try to catch up quick, bring in BG. Let him fire up a couple 3's, see if he's "on." If he is, leave him out there a while. But once you get back in the game, the principles of defense and team balance should take over...which means sending Ben back to the bench.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or since he's on more than he's off
The real solution is to hope that the rest of the team gets better, not replace Gordon. The team is already compensating for the liabilities of the players who can't play on offense. The first domino is Wallace can't play, the next is Duhon can't play (and Thabo's been slightly better), the third is Noc can't play.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you're right about Wallace,
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the Bulls fall behind without Gordon
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There are two ways to fall behind.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well yeah,
by YaoPau on Feb 12, 2008 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon's USG% every year has been higher
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't buy it.
Take the Nets for example. Last year, Jason Kidd had a USG% of 19.4% while Bostjan Nachbar was at 19.3%. I mean, USG% is kind of crap...
by YaoPau on Feb 12, 2008 6:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice synopsis
Hinrich's surprisingly AWFUL start also didn't help Gordon, as the complete lack of an NBA PG until Jan (when Kirk snapped out of his funk only to shortly go on the injury list) really forced the small BG to become PG and SG at the same time, and while at times BG can be a decent PG, he is always best suited in that role for spot minutes because of his ball handling deficiencies.
If Hinrich and Deng had come out of the gate playing the way they had last year, and if we had an inside presence to at least keep defenses honest, Gordon would really shine this year. Again he's proving to be our best player, yet his size deficiencies and the fact that when BG is being BG the rest of the team has a tendency to become bystanders, might spell out the end of the Gordon era....he'll likely move onto another team and really shine and be the eventual all star player we think he could be....
by majoyenrac on Feb 12, 2008 5:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
To me he's
I feel that a lot of BG's problems are because he wants the ball. He wants to be the go to guy. He has said this several times. When he gets stuck and can't make a play and the other guys are standing around does BG try to direct the other players on his team to move so he can get them the ball? Why would his team mates try to get open if they know he's not going to give up the ball?
by sue369 on Feb 12, 2008 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
His teammates
I totally think BG's our "star" player, he's just not fitted with another solid take charge on O player. Gordon's never going to be a franchise #1, but he'd be a great #2 or #3 guy (and will be all star worthy).
Again, without any threat on the inside and with a SF (Deng) who defers too much in the clutch and a PG (Hinrich) who seems to be a fan of BG's game (a watcher even though Hinrich arguably has more all around skills, just not quite the offensive skills that make Ben so valuable).....Gordon's always asked to do too much and that doing too much highlights his negatives....
If we weren't stupid and had grabbed Gasol at the end of last year's trading deadline for Deng, PJ Brown and maybe Duhon, then we'd be in a different spot now and Gordon would be at his first all star game this year....
That hasn't happened, and now the team's a complete mess.
by majoyenrac on Feb 12, 2008 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ray Allen is 6'5"
Ray Allen has roughly 2XGordon in steals, and 2xGordon in rebounds.
Ray Allen has started 830 of the 834 games he's played in. Gordon has started less than half his games.
But they're both from Connecticut.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 8:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
small man syndrome is on you
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 9:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and huh?
Allen: 4.2
Gordon: 3.5
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 9:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You might do the same
career Allen: 4.6
OK, not 2X (merely 63% more), but I did say roughly.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
look up more appropriate things then
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am in no way implying he did.
Ray Allen has been an elite starting player his entire career--a 7 time All-Star. Contrast that (not `compare') with Ben Gordon's one 6th Man Award. What does a 6th Man Award tell you, anyway?
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
elite, all-star, 6th man
You're right, Ray Allen would've gotten some 6th man awards too if his coaches forced him on the bench to start Chris Duhon.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He didn't make an All-Star team until
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's safe to say
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Per game stats are stupid.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jeez, people are a bit sensitive
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice red herring.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I try.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Get a grip on yourself.
Just trying to maintain a little perspective.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The difference in rebounding
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"get back on defense"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To what purpose ?
by Diabolo on Feb 12, 2008 9:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's how I decided I could ignore the
Do they do lots of similar things on the basketball court. Similar % of jumpshots? yes. Similar % of 3 pointers? yes. Similar % of FTA? yes. Similar turnover rates? yes. Similar eFG% and TS%? yes. Similar role in the offense? yes.
Does the player use his height to do significantly different things than the other player, such as score from the post or play better defense? no.
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
would you want BG guarding ray allen?
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't matter,
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It does matter
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right. His defensive,
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So maybe we should bash Hinrich then
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And bashing Hinrich
Hinrich has only recently received a reprieve from the incessant bashing...and this is primarily because his play has improved so dramatically since getting paired regularly with Thabo.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or it's just improved
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You choose to ignore
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's certainly your prerogative.
You fortify the weak spots with pitch made of insults.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 11:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you're evidence to the contrary
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, did you feel left out?
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or, you could look at YaoPau
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
What does Ben Gordon add to the team when his shot wasn't falling? He was shooting terribly to begin the season and had more turnovers than assists. He doesn't get to the line a whole lot, so we end up having a guy who bricks most of his shots and provides very little else to start the season. He has been great in terms of oncourt/offcourt stats for his career except this year...where he is terrible. In many respects Ben Gordon is like the Bulls as a whole. The Bulls have always been a decent team ever since Gordon joined the team...except this year. Gordon's stats have always shown that the team does better with him on the court...except this year...where the stats show the team does much better without him on the court. It may not be a stretch to say that these stats are a fluke...but are we ready to say that the Bulls' struggles this season are a fluke as well?
by Parrotman on Feb 12, 2008 9:50 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 9:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Bulls' struggles this season are a fluke
by Parrotman on Feb 12, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Um... no.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 10:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
um ok?
by Parrotman on Feb 12, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
R E A D S L O W E R
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
...wow
by Parrotman on Feb 12, 2008 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh
Does that make sense?
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well it's a midseason evaluation
by Parrotman on Feb 12, 2008 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
I'm just saying let's wait until the end of the season before we even can think about whether it was a fluke. So far, I'm only seeing a first-month fluke (w/ some injuries since), not a whole season's worth. By defining it as such, I expect that to remain the case the rest of the season.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well
by Parrotman on Feb 12, 2008 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Gordon's a great player.
But yes, great/elite/superstar players/teams aren't this inconsistent. Or something.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wow, what a way to waste a day
I think BG is a fine player, but an exceptional sixth man. And I don't think he should be starting when there are other suitable options based largely on how other teams target him and attack him offensively. When he comes off of the bench, it completely changes the equation for how teams can gameplan.
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 9:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
why do you keep saying that?
Do you think teams aren't helped in gameplanning when they see a worse player starting? I suppose there's less time between all the high-fives.
And I really don't care about 'pressure situations' with this group. Get Gordon some teammates as good as him and maybe his desire to take the last shot will work better as someone else does the hard work that gets him open. I don't see the problem in the mentality of wanting to take late-game shots (I thought it was a strength, actually). The problem is that he's part of the NBA epidemic of just clearing everyone out and running isolation on final plays.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
worse player?
Wanting to take the last shot is an admirable quality, not being very effective at getting the bucket isn't.
Get BG better teammates? If BG were as good as his teammates defensively, we wouldn't be having this or any of the other BG related conversations we've had recently.
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they were the best defense in the league
Thabo can get easier buckets against worse players off the bench too. That works for every player, and I don't understand it. I don't get the goal in 'staying even' with the first-team, and having to wait until the other team makes a sub to get your best offensive player in the game. Once again, this team's offense sucks. They need players who can score. More of them, too. Heck, if they had Pau Gasol (let alone Tim Duncan like Manu does) I'd be happier with benching Gordon.
It'd be nice if Gordon could defend SGs better. It'd be nice if Thabo could 'shoot'. I believe shooting is more important from a 'shooting' guard. It's not guarding guard (ha!)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Thabo might be able to
Ben Gordon, alas, won't.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sefolosha is almost done growing
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
how do you know he can't shoot?
And here's another thing I don't get: Why is it ok to pull the clearly superior offensive player in Joe Smith to develop TT, but it isn't ok to put BG in the sixth man role where he has flourished, to develop Thabo?
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cause, who cares about Joe Smith?
Gordon's 24. Thabo is 23.
Gordon's flourished as a starter too. Thabo isn't a rookie.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
TT isn't a rookie either
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I meant that to respond to
BG off the bench apparently IS a big deal, because he's now labeled as a 'bench player' and that's becoming extended to the label of 'expendable'.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like to think a more appropriate label
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
If you want to make Gordon a sixth man, get a better shooting guard.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
right, or a better anything
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You may not like it.
It's time to start thinking about how to maximize his exit.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's only gone
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In this regard
by Bass on Feb 12, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thabo is older, and hasn't flashed as many flashes
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope BG is around longer, too
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
eh, he'll get there
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Even Gordon needs pt to improve his shot
Or did we already forget the first 20 games of the season?
by RogersPark Kris on Feb 12, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm willing to go out on a limb
One thing Thabo can do is simply post up or drive more often...which he is already beginning to do.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
post up?
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
While I'm looking,
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rvrexKQBcfw&feature=related
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Was it the Bobcats???
by piccolomair on Feb 12, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering about that too
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
eh...
I've watched every single game, and even if he did post up Carroll in that game, there have been 8 games since the Charlotte one, and I don't remember seeing Thabo in the post during any of those games.
Granted, I'm not saying that he can't be an effective and/or consistent post player...I'm just not seeing it now.
I'd take a tightly contested BG long 3 over a Thabo post-up any day :-)
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ah he wont be an effect post threat
by piccolomair on Feb 12, 2008 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
size or no size
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes but
by piccolomair on Feb 12, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's an offensive liability at all.
by CrashDavis on Feb 12, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Team defense is about understanding
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's because the coaches believe
What about the other team's defense? Make them worry about who to put on Ben Gordon.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
.459 TS% and no arc
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yuh, it's a combination of seeing it not go in
I think Thabo can get a better too overall. But his shot is flat and I don't see how THAT would change. Frankly, Tyrus' jumper looks more primed for improvement.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thabo's dunks are flat too
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
which way is the TS% trending?
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
at a glance
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
take another look
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If offense is so important
by Parrotman on Feb 12, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
because Gordon
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 11:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not to quibble
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben started to blog his reply to this...
"Damn right! Thanks for this. I wish the fans would just realize-"
[loud thud]
[long pause]
[audible groan]
"S-sorry. Dang housekeeper must've waxed my floors. I'm alright though--and don't worry...we'll get it on the next possession. How much time is on the clock?"
by T Maple on Feb 12, 2008 10:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
step away from the minutiae for a second
The real questions are:
- How much money is the "best offensive player" on a bad offensive team worth?
- If Gordon wants more money than that, how difficult would it be to find a replacement SG capable of matching his production?
- Looking at the team as a whole, are other players capable of improving offensively enough to make up for losing Gordon?
- Significantly less than 5 years/$50 million
- Not sure, but finding quality SG's is always going to be easier than finding big men. You could cherry pick statistics if you want (not many SG's have a PER of 18.4, but plenty have an adjusted +/- of better than -8.7), but I think about it this way: how many NBA teams have a legitimate weakness at the 2?
- Before this year, I would have said "definitely yes", but Deng hasn't improved, Hinrich has regressed, and Thomas/Noah/Sefolosha are still in the "too early to say" category.
by vanillablue on Feb 12, 2008 11:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
And, rightlyor wrongly,
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice post
I actually think SG is probably the second hardest position to play well. There's a pretty broad section of SG's that are more or less the same in quality, but only a few that really bring something to the table.
I've said before we can't live with him and can't live without him with regards to Gordon. In the short run though (since we're not exactly on the cusp of a championship), the better solution is probably to try and cash him in for a prospect.
Well, better solution given the way the Bulls approach finances. In my ideal world, they'd pay Gordon because he really is a uniquely nice player, but since that'd influence their other thinking (the way Wallace and Smith currently influence it), I'm thinking within that reality.
by Sports2 on Feb 12, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can't we deal Gordon
I'd be more than pleased to trade Ben Gordon for the chance to draft Eric Gordon.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 12:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
if the bullst rade BG for Rasual Butler
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
E. Gordon
by tyrus4prez on Feb 12, 2008 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Eric Gordon
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
where he
by Conor on Feb 12, 2008 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so they aren't similiar players?
by tyrus4prez on Feb 12, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
similar in stature
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 1:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
for a guy
like joni mitchell said, "you dont know what you got till its gone."
by Conor on Feb 12, 2008 1:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
-8.7 in adjusted +-
I sure hope so. Mix tape it and send it to BG.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
isnt ben still
you see, that is what i am talking about. the questioning of ben's work ethic and loyalty is what astounds me the most. i dont get where it it coming from. skiles never had a problem with bg's hustle or whatever, and i think that is an indication that there never was a problem, we would have heard about it from skiles. a lot of people on here demand results instantly, like that is a realistic scenario anyway, and are furious when those results arent met. not saying you are one of those people, observer, i agree with you most of the time. seriously, though, people have to get off the damn negative train and relax, the bulls future is still bright, and risky trades and all that shit could take us right back to 2001. ugh
by Conor on Feb 12, 2008 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The questions about Ben Gordon
Kevin Martin, drafted way later than Gordon, signed a reported 5 year 55 million dollar contract extension. Martin is already the polished scoring guard that gets to the free throw line. He's also 6'7" which takes away many of the defensive weaknesses that are exploited in Ben Gordon.
One of the only differences that can account for the two is that Martin scores in the Western conference that play as a faster pace and Ben Gordon plays in the Eastern Conference as a slower pace.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think
by Conor on Feb 12, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
are you following me?
The only way BG increases his giving is by somehow finding a way to get 6-8 free throw attempts per game. He's far more likely to increase output than he is in decreasing the opponents output against him.
My solution for BG is to get him traded to the Western Conference. Turning down the 5 year, 50 mil deal makes it almost impossible because any team we send him to will know what's at stake in the offseason.
Seattle is one place I'd like to try and fleece their lottery pick. Perhaps a Ben Gordon for Earl Watson deal would work. I really don't like Watson at all, but I'm already thinking about future acquisitions anyway since their is no ideal trade that involves getting anything respectable back for Ben Gordon.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
as a draftnik
Gordon's having a bad season thus far. Up until now he gives more than gives back.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do I assume that?
What I am picturing is selling a team that just came off out of the lottery with healthy selections, is rebuilding, and would perhaps deal for a veteran rather than take another dip in the top five 19 year old swimming pool.
There is that and then the Knicks history of trading their lottery picks.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i am following you
by Conor on Feb 12, 2008 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What variables in Ben Gordon are still maturing?
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
did ben gordon f*ck your girlfriend or something?
by Conor on Feb 12, 2008 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been a big BG fan until this season
But the contract isn't the BIG thing with me. Sure I would love to have him secured perhaps with more money for fewer seasons, but that's over and we cannot change or amend that history.
This is where I start when scouting Ben Gordon. I ask - what will Ben Gordon produce tonight? I then ask - what will Ben Gordon give up tonight? Gordon has been able to placate many of his known deficiencies by scoring more points and benefiting from exceeding expectations of the players around him. Once those other players plateaued, almost all of Ben Gordon's negatives started to float on the surface.
I move on. I accept that Ben Gordon's defense is the least likely to improve despite being his lowest level of achievement and thus has the greatest room for improvement. Therefore, Ben's efficiency must come from improved offense.
So from where does that improvement originate. Two areas it has to come from are dribbling and getting to the free throw line. The two compliment each other and allow enhancement in his most deadly asset, his perimeter shooting. With a dribble penetration game that results in increased free throw attempts he will only be given more space on the perimeter or teams will have to cheat over and double him beyond the arc for a trap. So his passing game has to get better as well to limit turnovers.
In my judgment, Ben Gordon can't get to where he has to get offensively to continue a role with the Chicago Bulls. He may be able to do it with another franchise, particularly a Western conference club, but a bum wrist and declining a contract extension don't help his case for sticking around.
What do you think? Make your case for Ben Gordon. Why should I want to keep Ben Gordon with the Chicago Bulls?
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been a fan of Kirk until this season
I move on. I accept that Kirk Hinrich's offense & leadership is the least likely to improve despite being his lowest level of achievement and thus has the greatest room for improvement. Therefore, Kirk's efficiency must come from improved uhhh...everything.
So from where does that improvement originate. Two areas it has to come from are scoring points and doing a better job of running the offense. The two compliment each other and allow enhancement in his most deadly asset, being the starting point guard. With better leadership skills, that will result in increased points for other teammates and they will only be given more space on the perimeter or teams will have to cheat over and double them beyond the arc for a trap. So his overall floor game has to get better as well to limit turnovers.
In my judgment, Kirk Hinrich can't get to where he has to get offensively to continue a role with the Chicago Bulls. He may be able to do it with another franchise, particularly a Western conference club, but with mopey shoulders and lack of leadership and floor game don't help his case for sticking around.
What do you think? Make your case for Kirk Hinrich. Why should I want to keep Kirk Hinrich with the Chicago Bulls?
==========
see, you're nothing special, I can do it too :-)
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you made it most of the day
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck, it's a trap
Thanks for the commentary.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get why he can improve elsewhere
You're right, he's most likely to improve by keeping his turnovers low (so far this season, so good, despite 'BG amplification') and getting smarter at how to draw contact in the lane. Eventually the officials will respect his drives if he flails the correct way. :)
And I really don't care about your psychological issues ("first I ask myself...") when evaluating Gordon. If it's just a nerve-rattled way of thinking about +/-, then outside of this year he's peformed well. I still maintain that having a seive defender (and he can improve at that as well albeit marginally) at the guard spot isn't that big of a deal. Is he even that bad compared to a lot of other scoring guards in the league?
And I have no idea what you mean: "Gordon has been able to placate many of his known deficiencies by scoring more points and benefiting from exceeding expectations of the players around him. Once those other players plateaued, almost all of Ben Gordon's negatives started to float on the surface."
Right, the Bulls need better players around Gordon. Not help out the plateaued lot by getting rid of him.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so they should get players to make BG better
And as for being better in a different system, I agree. I think BG would flourish in Phoenix or GS like a lot of players might if BG didn't have to worry about set plays or taking the occasional bad shot. The bulls system is very tightly regimented and BG would benefit from more freedom.
by bullshooter on Feb 12, 2008 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't buy into 'making teammates better'
Gordon will be the same. If he has better teammates, the team will be better. If they replace Gordon with someone worse, than the team will be worse.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 4:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank god you're not ScottieCartwright
For example, if Ben Gordon turns it over is there any expectation that he will hustle to the other end and make the stop? Does he have that fire that must be ignited by defeat or the chance of defeat? If you cross(not the dribbling move) Ben Gordon will he make you pay for it?
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 5:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree with Matt on this.
I don't think it's a worse defensive team he needs, but a better offensive team.
A team that plays as good or better team defense as the Bulls will help cover up Gordon's mistakes/poor play (like the Bulls for the most part). However, if that team is also a better offensive team than the Bulls (not hard) and has a single, better offensive player than any of the Bulls, Gordon's "one-dimensionality" would also be somewhat covered up.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hence...
It's kind of like the Celtics and Pierce (Gordon isn't Pierce of course). You don't get Garnett to make Pierce happy. You get Garnett because you're getting Kevin fucking Garnett.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
trying to follow you
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No you get or develop better players
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sarcastic ass?
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
the biggest reason why i like bg is his desire to improve his game. you cant put a price on that, he is never satisfied, he wants to dominate and is willing to put in the time. I know it doesnt sound like a whole lot, but that is the mark of a winner, someone you want on your team. he isnt scared to have the ball at the end, even though he can struggle with his handle, he is fearless, he wants the ball, he wants the shot. when he improves his ball handling (something that should improve with practice, which he does a lot of) he will be able to penetrate easier and get more foul shots. he should get more foul shots already, but for whatever reason, bulls guards dont get any calls. and you have to remember that bg is already a lights out shooter, and again, as more time goes by, he should be even deadlier. there is no doubt he needs help out there, but he can do a lot of different things offensively, and he is 25 in april, so, in my opinion, we havent seen the best ben gordon yet, thats why you should want to keep him. no, gordon cant do it by himself, but his scoring ability is something the bulls need. if he can improve his ball handling and ability to get fouled and sent to the line, his up-side is truly great.
like i said before, i agree with what you have to say almost all of the time, but obviously we disagree about where bg can take his game. he is a gym rat, so improvement is never out of the question with a guy who works hard day in, day out.
by Conor on Feb 12, 2008 5:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that post
by Conor on Feb 12, 2008 5:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a reaction
Presumption 1: Ben Gordon is a lights out shooter.
Fact: He's not. No idea what the consensus is for "lights out shooter", but I would say 47% from field is a starting point. Ben's best FG% was 46% last season. Over his career he is a 43% shooter. He's shooting 42.4% this season.
I am not sold on Ben Gordon playing elsewhere. I just think it is best for Ben Gordon and will yield the most suitable returns for Chicago. I am always open to persuasion. When someone is right and I am wrong I don't take any issue in conceding.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 5:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He'll likely end up
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 5:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How convenient...
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 5:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Any way to convince you that was random?
I should have checked the stats first. Collectively their FG% is above 47%.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
handle joke! observe!
Why put two guys in there who don't shoot a lot of 3s, and use FG%? Of course that's going to come out in favor of your point.
by hscs on Feb 12, 2008 6:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oh no question
by Conor on Feb 13, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Then check out Deron Williams and his
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's make a deal
In short, bake me a cake and let me taste it, but don't try and throw it in my face.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or just use your brain too
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your main thesis.
I concur. I'd guess that Paxson would also concur. Gordon is undoubtedly the best offensive player on a very poor offensive squad.
However, in my estimation, your fine statistical analysis hasn't answered the primary questions facing the Bulls' organization. Gordon's talent vis-a-vis his teammates isn't in doubt, but his talent vis-a-vis the rest of the league is. How good is Gordon on an absolute basis? Is he worth a max contract? Is he worth the sort of money he appears to be demanding?
Gordon is good player, but I don't think there is any evidence that he is developing into a dominant player who can carry a team to the title. If he isn't that sort of player, can the Bulls' afford to expend massive amounts of money to retain him? Or are they better off trading him before he leaves as a free agent?
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 12, 2008 1:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
since when
You can't start comparing players on your team to players on other teams because the situations, wants, and needs are completely different for everyone.
I don't think anyone expects/expected BG to be a "dominant player who can carry a team to the title"...again, NONE of the Bulls players are. Just put up decent enough numbers that help your team win games.
In short (no pun intended) the Bulls will be completely screwed if they trade him or let him walk, without getting something comparable or better in return. I'm tired of this team letting their top scorers walk away/getting rid of them for nothing.
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's absolutely necessary to
Your last sentence makes little sense to me. Part of the reason they would trade him now is to prevent him from leaving without compensation as a free agent.
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 12, 2008 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
on the one hand
For example, at the MOST, Nocioni should've gotten a $30 million dollar deal. But because Paxson was caught looking at what other teams (Memphis) was going to overpay for Noce, he overpaid himself.
So yes, sometimes it is good to see what other people are making but you can't base paying your players strictly off of that info.
And as far as my last sentence...it seems like you did understand it because that's what I was saying. Here is what I meant in a more clear way: Don't trade Gordon unless you get someone who is comparable in talent and/or points in return.
Don't NOT sign him and let him walk away for completely nothing.
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's tough to define 'market value'
Say that Gordon does get such an offer and the Bulls just let him go. Fine, so we're not overpaying Gordon. What then? The Bulls are still over the cap, and not only have to replace Gordon's offense but also remember that they were a shitty offensive team even with him.
I can see some kind of drawn-out situation like what the Cavs had with Varejao. Although unlike him, Gordon's qualifying offer is quite the sum, so he's more likely to take it.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm fairly certain that most people
I agree that we shouldn't trade Gordon for less than equal value.
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 12, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me also say that your
A player should be paid based on his skill. A player's skill doesn't depend upon the jersey he wears. In certain limited cirumstances, a player might have some unique synergistic interaction with teammates that could warrant a premium, but I doubt it justifies substantial deviations from skill-based market value.
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 12, 2008 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree
To me, it looked like a case of completely over-valuing your player...it wasn't based on perceived value or skill level.
I don't know...looking at the team salaries (http://hoopshype.com/salaries/chicago.htm) almost everyone looks over-paid based on this current season :)
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no doubt ben
by Conor on Feb 12, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's worth what Paxson
by Scotter on Feb 12, 2008 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point,
The Bulls are in a position to significantly drive down BG's market value. And I believe they are already doing just that. In fact, everything management has done this year could be interpreted as an effort to insert question marks into every aspect of Ben's game...as well as his personality.
Even if he's not in the Bulls future plans, they still don't want to have to trade him for a high dollar amount, as that would hinder their ability to sign Deng just as much as if they paid the money directly to Gordon.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure that's a good strategy.
I don't fathom an actual GM saying, "Let's make this guy out to be a piece of shit, both in basketball abilities and personality, so that we can re-sign him for cheaper."
Do you think before you type?
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's exactly what's happening.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How do they save money?
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
By decreasing the dollar value
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I figured you'd say.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 4:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you really that naive?
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No.
Yeah, planning for that about 8 months in advance is beyond ridiculous. Why not just let the player play, have him drive his value up (winning more games in the process), therefore increasing the market to do sign-and-trades with?
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's an alec award
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 4:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm glad you have such faith
Here's another little philosophy nugget:
My advisor in the philosophy department was once asked to teach a course in Business Ethics.
He walked into the room on the first day of class and said, "Business is business."
He then dismissed the class for the term.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have a philosophy
And in general not getting into shadowy Reinsdorf conspiracy theories. There's a difference between not paying the tax and spearheading the value-crushing of his players. No really, there is.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No conspiracy theory.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
there's certainly a subgroup of Bulls fans
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 4:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's that handy pitch.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
better than what I say when see you post
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't let it be said
Uh, fighting.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 5:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
don't let it be said
I'd rather be accused of being a moron than having an agenda. Speculating (of course) on me ignoring information not fitting to my argument was was just garbage.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 5:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and to explain myself
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well. Gordon turned dow $10 million per year...
There is obviously a disconnect between Ben's perception of his value and the organization's perception of his value. During a period when the Bulls also have to accomodate Luol Deng, I don't know if they have the luxury of satisfying Gordon's contract demands.
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 12, 2008 4:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
Remember what he said later - "They didn't even negotiate with me. They were like, `This is what it is, take it or leave it' and that was it."
That type of treatment doesn't scream fairness to me.
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 5:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
judging by this week
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 5:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So the Bulls' didn''t appropriately coddle
Are you arguing that this isn't about money, but is instead about mollifying Gordon's ego?
If Gordon thought the monetary offer was fair but refused it because the Bulls didn't express some nebulous appreciation for him by engaging in a negotiation process, then Gordon is a petulant dunce.
If he only wanted a negotiation so he could feel as if he were exerting some power and influence over the situation, then the Bulls should have just started with a lower offer.
I think Gordon truly believes that he is a franchise player who is worth $65MM. But he really isn't, according to any objective measure. So now we are at an impasse.
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 12, 2008 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Today has been a day of many impasses.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
It has nothing to do with ego...if I'm the player and the team tells me that they want to keep me for the long term (which is what Paxson kept spouting off) then at least negotiate that way. Don't negotiate like I'm some first year player who hasn't done anything.
From the stories that were leaked out, it doesn't sound like any kind of acutal negotiating was done on the Bulls part.
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 13, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't negotiate like I'm a first year player
by bullshooter on Feb 13, 2008 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
also remember
So perhaps 6/60 is better to Ben than 5/50.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
seriously?
And I believe they are already doing just that.
What is management doing to "significantly drive down BG's market value"?
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 4:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Oops
http://www.blogabull.com/comments/2008/2/12/03026/3673/159#159
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 4:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The first thing that comes to mind
The allowed speculation about the extent of his wrist injury to linger. How many times does Norm have to shrug and roll his eyes about it to get the point across?
They harp on his poor decision-making on offense and his inability to slow down opposing SG's on defense.
They talk about how he hurts Hinrich's offensive production, even going so far as to blame Gordon for Hinrich wearing out.
And when they finally get around to lauding his offense, they put it in context of ,"When Ben gets on a hot streak...."
Finally, no player (other than Ben Wallace) has suffered more in the arena of public opinion this year than Ben Gordon. Team management has had ample opportunity to stand up for him, but instead have mutely acquiesced to his constant public bashing.
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
who is they??
point #2: Wrist Injury - So now Paxson I guess goes up to Boylan and convinces him to sit out. Do you think Paxson has the balls to try and pull this??
point #3: Media specualtion about wrist injury - So now it's the media against Gordon just to prove that Gordon is soft and will hoepfully come at a cheaper price??
point #4: Hinrich bashing - Media asked question whats the benefit of playing with Thabo vs. Gordon? He answers that he doesn't have to guard big SG and can focus on offense.
This seems like a lot of people all looking out for the Bulls best interest in order to save some $$. Meanwhile, Pax, Boylan ad certainly Gordon's job are at risk and they all seem to focus on bringing Ben down in the media?? Seems a little far fetched to me...
by tyrus4prez on Feb 12, 2008 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you recall his ankle sprain
In all seriousness, Skiles was harping all preseason about getting the starters on the floor together before they opened the season. It was obvious what he was reacting to - the previous three seasons of slow starts. But more so, he needed to SEE where his starters were in terms of playing together.
I have no way of determining if Gordon's ankle was poor, bad, or able to play, but his public comments then were to stay out of games, but still participate in shoot-arounds and limited practices.
We've learned many things in the middle of this season that should cause us to go back and review what we had previously concluded. The fact that Skiles basically asked Reinsdorf to fire him to benefit the team, according to Reinsdorf, is a big mystery to me.
If you haven't already, read Keith Glass' book. You'll learn some more about Skiles, albeit from his agent.
by NBA Observer on Feb 12, 2008 5:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As I say, the team
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
sorry, prez, supposed to link to you
by alec on Feb 12, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
its all good
This team has never really backed up anyone of thier own. Skiles was on the verge of getting fired and the one thing that killed me was the fact that he never gave any of his players any credit. He never backed any of them up with the refs. He was too hard nosed and players need to see that the coach has thier back, or he wiill lose them. Exactly what happend.
I do not buy into any of these 'conspiracies" and just want Gordon to get healthy and get this thing straight
by tyrus4prez on Feb 12, 2008 7:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They have publicly stood up for two players.
They haven't "stood up" for Hinrich or Deng starting off poorly. They didn't stand up for Noah. They certainly haven't gone out of their way to make Thomas or Thabo feel better in the public eye.
I think it's an organizational thing to be mum and glum on players who aren't uber-tryers.
by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is this an argument?
If the Bulls were to sign him, which I assume they will, he will be getting paid for starter's minutes, for a starter's role, and for a starter's recognition.
We all know Manu Ginobilli could have been starting on about any team in the league, but he wasn't and that was his role.
by Kemp on Feb 12, 2008 4:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Sam sez
Matt Harpring, here we come.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 7:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

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