Adventures in small sample size
Can't Sam just be happy with Thabo taking Chris Duhon's place in the rotation?
Of course not, Thabo's play is a step towards pushing Ben Gordon out the door.
Thabo's having a good stretch, and after his dismal first half of the season is at least confirming what should've been happening all season: him as the 3rd guard instead of Duhon. But between this meager success and Gordon's benching and then injury, in Sam's mind this is the logical extension.
Gordon is one year older than Thabo, yet Thabo, who has been until now a dismal offensive player, gets this extended development track while Gordon gets rewarded as the one of the team's best players by being constantly jerked in and out of the lineup and continually called out as the team's weakness. Yes, he's having a poor season, but he normally finishes stronger than he starts and once he does get back from a wrist injury (paging Dr. BaB Commenter for a consult) I expect at least a return to his career norms.
And luckily Boylan has no real authority, so coach Wallace won't allow the stance of injured players not be given their jobs back. Fair enough in principle, Boylan, but lets just say better players? This road trip has given the chance for some guys to perform well, but they're a better team with Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng. Sure it's fun in stretches to watch the lesser talented scrap towards competition each game, but not as the franchise direction.
When they get back it's not a matter of limiting Thabo and Tyrus Thomas, it's about keeping Duhon and Nocioni off the court. That's the benefit of depth, not to supplant the best players. Fixing Paxson's phone to get him to clean out the frontcourt glut would help too.
I'd even swallow my bile and accept Gordon coming off the bench if Thabo starts. But having Gordon deemed expendable? What exactly do the Bulls plan to do without him? Chris Duhon as the 3rd guard again? I can't hold that sickening reaction down.
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142 comments
Comments
my favorite part
Huh?? Seem set at shooting guard? On the road trip it's obvious that Sam had nothing better to do (he watched people ice skate?) so he just dreamt up insane things to say.
Sam, like too many people here, often go too crazy when a person has one or two good games. The BaB'ers were ready to flip when Viktor scored a few points last week.
Yeah Thabo has been playing well, but how does that make BG expendable? Is there some master plan for Griffin in place that I don't know about??
I can live with the idea of him coming off the bench, but to just deem him as no longer needed and suggesting that Duhon can fill that role is completely dumb.
Just last week in his mailbag, he said this:
Sam is worse than Paxson at canceling out his own words and ideas. I mark up this article as complete hogwash and as him having nothing better to do. I doubt he believes it himself.
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 8:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Ben Gordan
by Hendo g on Feb 11, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Gordon carries the team,
He has "microwave" written all over him.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ever bother investigating that?
by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if BG
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Read it again Scottie.
by sue369 on Feb 11, 2008 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now comes the tricky part
by California Al on Feb 11, 2008 8:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thabo is the anti-Gordon
by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 9:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
It all comes down to money
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
well they hopefully can do a sign/trade
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree they are set
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
set 1-10 without Gordon?
This is another topic for another day, but a new competent coach will help, but they need a talent upgrade as well to get to championship level. Heck, a truly talented team shouldn't need a great coach, or have to worry about contract jitters and other such nonsense.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1-10
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
who's going to to give BG more than that
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well then qualifying offer works for both sides
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You can say that about 95% of the league
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Id hate to lose BG for nothing
by Thirdrock on Feb 11, 2008 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We'd have to get a
Gordon's offense is so important for this team, but his defense has killed us. In the Pistons series, Billups took advantage of him every time, and it left Rip with a mismatch on Kirk. Now in these past two months, I've seen Thabo hold Baron Davis to 8/24 shooting and outplay Rip and Wade, and it's made me think he's the guy to play the bulk of the SG minutes. Notice how Hinrich's play has improved now that he doesn't have to guard the opponent's best player every game.
I'm with Smith on this one. Gordon said he didn't regret rejecting the $50 million for five years, meaning it'll take more than that to keep him. For a team strapped for cash already, it doesn't make sense to me to give $10+ million a year to a role player.
by YaoPau on Feb 11, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
by jpx7 on Feb 12, 2008 5:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thabo: so hot right now
Back to the hot Thabo action. I thought this quote from Kirk was important:
It is a lot easier on me physically and easier for me to play against guys equal at my position. It's been a while since I've done it. Playing guys at my position, I can get my shot off so much easier at all times.
The team has already invested a lot in Kirk and it appears that the organization is committed to him (he's NEVER gotten jerked out of the starting line-up because of a bad stretch). Though that sentiment in itself is not enough to make a roster decision, it is a meaningful endorsement for Thabo.
Sam should have left it at that, but if he had, this thread wouldn't exist and we would have nothing to keep us occupied on a Monday morning.
by paxson43 on Feb 11, 2008 9:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
it's not just Sam
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Thabo
Like I said, just because Thabo's a 2nd year player people forget that he came sold as a finished overseas product. He's roughly a year older than Noah and 2.5 years older than Thomas. Plus Noah (and Thomas for that matter) have produced far more.
I just don't get whey Ben Gordon's pigeonholed as a bench 'sparkplug' (or whatever), yet Thabo doesn't get the same treatment as what he likely is: a role player to come in and defend wings. In fact, I love that role for him since as a backup 3 (as well as 2) he can take yet another of Nocioni's roles.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
worst SG in the league?
by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A defensive center is more valuable
At age 23 Artest had a PER over 17. And I'd guess about 50 pounds too.
And regardless, this team needs offense. Having one of the worst starting SGs in the league...
(I suppose Rashad McCants is worse. Larry Hughes too. By next year, Cuttino Mobley, Mo Petersen? Willie Green starts for some reason. Whoever starts for Utah or Orlando)
...is fine if you can make it up elsewhere.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's true that
Also, Thabo's PER is pretty pitiful right now...but I don't think we should be judging players solely by PER. It's not really fair to compare Ron Artest's production in his 4th season in the league while averaging 30 minutes a game in each of his 4 seasons to a guy not even in his 2nd year in the NBA and couldn't get off the bench until recently. I'm not saying Thabo will ever be as good as Ron..but I think that type of player is his ceiling.
by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
age matters
Why is it your goal to see a team that 'closes gaps' and 'doesn't get blown out'? You're listing these as Thabo's great contributions.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If age matters
by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
About Ron Artest
by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Filling the offensive void
by paxson43 on Feb 11, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i concur...
it's fun having a 6'-0" SG who can light it up 1 out of every 2-3 games, but those games where he can't light it up?... or those games he decides that he's a point guard with time running off the clock?... those are the games we lose. if we lose a game where gordon scores 35 points, it's still a loss. don't get me wrong, i've been to games where he's on fire, and he's exciting as hell... but i've been to others where he's a non-factor from the start. gordon is not the long term solution at SG for any team in the NBA, let alone the Bulls. i'm not 100% convinced that sefalosha is either, but he looks to have the right mix of height, length, dribbling and suspect shooting skills to peak optimism...
by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're going to say that
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been thinking along the same lines.
by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich, Sefolosha, and BG
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll counter your point
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Your Noc
by Kemp on Feb 11, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i'll counter with an older regurgitated posting...
over the past 4 years, the comparison of 3pt attempts per game/ 3pt fg%:
noc:
2004 - 1.2/ 29%
2005 - 2.9/ 39%
2006 - 3.9/ 38%
2007 - 5.0/ 37%
deng:
2004 - 1.9/ 26%
2005 - 1.0/ 26%
2006 - 0.0/ 14%
2007 - 0.3/ 40%
deng is always commended for his good fg%, but he's a small forward that rarely steps outside the 3pt line. in the past 3 years, you would think that he would have expanded his range to make himself more valuable by being able to spread the defenses. it's actually the opposite in that it seems he has regressed. he is an above average slasher and jump shooter, but until he can step out beyong the 3pt line, his true value as a small forward (or even a slow shooting guard matt) will never be realized on a teamwide level.
am i saying that noc is better than deng? no, they are 2 different players that offer different skill sets at the 3. but i hardly think noc is deserving of the perpetual thrashing he tends to receive here. and if the deng supporters feel that noc is expendable, how about hearing an analysis on why deng can't shoot a three?
i would still like to see deng put on 25 lbs and become a back to the basket/ slashing power forward....
by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 7:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Skiles told him to
Deng doesn't get thrashed because he's the best player on the team, he's the only guy on the roster that can reliably make a layup, and unlike Noc he actually bothers to guard his man.
by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 9:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
true...
although I would add that he could also find minutes as a PG (paired with Gordon). Why would Hinrich be the only one benefitting from Thabo playing alongside him for stretches ? ;-)
Finally, I think Thabo (while not the best offensive player in the NBA by far) is a little bit undervalued at that. He can be very good on offense if you don't consider offense as only shooting ability.
by Diabolo on Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been one of Thabo's strongest
Thabo should be part of the future, but that doesn't mean fans should be in hurry to throw away the best offensive player on the team.
by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 10:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think a big key is
by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sbulls
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
At first, I assumed the "small"
Gordon's passport out of town was stamped the minute he was shifted back to 6th man. It was either accept the huge pay cut that goes with being a bench player, or salvage some trade value for the guy and move him before the deadline.
Sam's article makes perfect sense. Gordon, along with Ben Wallace, are the prime guys to be moved.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 9:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
oh, you
(That's what I heard, anyway.)
Of course it could be an indication that he'll likely be gone, although hopefully it was just Boylan 'trying something' and Pax giving him that one bone.
I know it's conventional wisdom that whatever Gordon does is negated by being short. But it's, like, wrong. And Hinrich should know that it only helps his value that he can guard biger guards to mask what he doesn't do on offense.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
All signs point to Gordon being gone.
Gordon's sloppy ball domination, bad offensive judgment, and the fact that he's nothing more than a defensive chew-toy for the rest of the league's shooting guards...these all make him either expendable, or a nice, small-minute, instant-offense-as-needed role player off the bench.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a valid question
A better then average scoring SG who is a defensive liability...
or an average scoring SG who provides stellar defense and even is a plus on the boards.
If Thabo is consistently good for at least 20 points a game, I'd say losing BG and using his cap space for other needed priorities would end up being most beneficial in the long term.
by RogersPark Kris on Feb 11, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
20 ppg?
James, Bryant, Iverson, Anthony, Wade, Jefferson, Redd, Maggette, Davis, Butler, Johnson, Carter, Jackson, Paul, Howard, Richardson, Pierce, Crawford(!)
I don't see Thabo joining that group.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of that group
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't you rather have any of those guys
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That is a bit divisive
by Kemp on Feb 11, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good grief
by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Allen played in Milwaukee right
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon seldom plays defense
BG is just a first-falling domino no matter where you try to hide him.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you're inept
by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be happy to have BG
That, in one run-on sentence, is the whole Ben Gordon career arc. I've mentioned this a number of times and you've shot it down every time...I guess I just can't learn.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's a lazy assessment, and highly speculative
by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lazy...you're right,
And speculative...well, right again.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
See My Post Above
Now personally, I think Hinrich saying things that way is a sort of douchebag thing to do. He's throwing Gordon (and Duhon's) size out there as a reason for his poor play even though it was obviously no different than the last three years he was playing next to those guys.
He didn't have problems now, so to blame his difficult defensive assignments now is a load of crap.
But at the end of the day, there's also some truth to it. Not the right thing for Kirk to think or say, but there's truth in it. Especially if you've got the guy who has to play with him openly lobbying about it.
So what do you do? Trade Kirk? Well, if you still have the problem. The fact is Kirk is one of the better fits for Gordon league-wide. So if he's throwing his hands up and saying he'd rather play with Thabo (whether justified or not for him to be doing it), you've got a pretty big problem.
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's dumb too.
by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't with alec agree more
I love his scoring on this team, but that speaks more to the team deficiencies than Gordon's value. On a good team, he is a killer 6th man - he just doesn't do other things well enough to start (IMO).
With the vast talent, quickness, and athletic ability he possesses, one would think he would be a much better defender than he is. Not that I expect All-Defensive team from him, but he should not lose his man as often as he does.
I was certainly not pleased with him going to the bench for Duhon (that was not and upgrade). However, if this Thabo keeps playing, if he "get's it", then I'm all for Gordon coming off the bench and relegating Duhon to the 4th guard/backup PG (aka: "Kirk's in foul trouble - again").
by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How much is a non all star worth?
I think that's what this will all come down to anyways.
by RogersPark Kris on Feb 11, 2008 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a great question.
by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Matt already said it
by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bad comparison
Holy crap: NBA.com lists BG at 6'3". No way.
If my sarcasm-detector is busted, just ignore this...
by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think, like any good professor,
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But
I got nothin' on the 'speculative' point, though. But this would be an awfully dull place without speculation.
by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
was at
by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 7:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They have this thing called a combine
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/measurements.php?year=2004&sort2=ASC& draft=0&sort=2
But, don't let facts get in your way. I'm sure estimating that Shaq is 7/6ths of a Jason Williams is a significantly more accurate standard.
by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
who said...
it's always acceptable to correct someone or to offer your own input, but to do it without a trace of humility or tact speaks volumes.
by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry for being a jerk, but
by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ginobili
I don't think the problem is if BG comes off bench or starts
I think the problem is salary cap. You can't pay 5 guys starter money (Kirk, Wallace, Deng, BG, Noc) while staying under the cap and be a championship contender when none of those 5 players are dominate players.
One common thing used to be was to point to Det, because they won without a "superstar" but their roster was better then Bulls
by NY Chicago Fan on Feb 11, 2008 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you're right
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If the deals for BG and Deng are structured
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That depends
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
also true
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 8:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noc
the problem would be if both Deng and BG are signed to 10million dollar deals to go along with Kirk and Wallace
neither Deng or BG is good enough (and neither are Kirk and Wallace) to lead a team to championship
its not fair to point out any one of them, its that the whole doesn't equal enough
by NY Chicago Fan on Feb 11, 2008 6:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
While You were writing this
Prediction: Gordon not be a Bull in 2008.
I base this on several things:
1. The Bulls have shown themselves to be extremely luxury tax averse and have mismanaged things to the extent that they'll likely have to pay the tax to keep both Gordon and Deng. I say mis-managed because if the Bulls knew these constraints going in (and I think Pax would be incompetent not to) I think it's simply mismanagement to sign Andres Nocioni to a deal that will play him $8M next year and then be in a position to lose Ben Gordon for having to pay the luxury tax. The Bulls currently project to be about $19M under the luxury tax threshold for next year, based on their current roster and around $2M for their first round pick. If Deng and Gordon were to get backloaded offers of around 6 years, $64M (which is fairly similar to the 5 year $54M deal they both declined), they can both be signed for about $17M next year.
However, if some other team forces the Bulls to match a significantly higher offer on Deng or Gordon, or even does something like front-load the same sort of offer the Bulls might make (a 6yr/$64M deal for one of those guys frontloaded would start at $12.96M) then the Bulls total outlay for those two guys next season ends up at between $20M and $26M. That puts the Bulls between $1M and $6M over the luxury tax threshold.
The danger here is pretty simple. Any team with cap room can look at the Bulls and think it's possible to steal one of our RFAs. And based on front loading, they wouldn't really even have to significantly overpay to do it. Basically a team could just do what Miami did to the LA Clippers a couple years back. The Heat extended a big offer to Elton Brand, and while the Clippers matched it, they then didn't want to match the offer the Heat made next to Lamar Odom.
When thinking about how the Bulls operate financially, I tend the think the Clippers are a good model. :(
So what options do the Bulls have if they do nothing:
- Not deal with Gordon and/or Deng and hope one of them doesn't get an offer starting at more than about $6M from another team. This seems unlikely to me. This really isn't a choice since it's not something the Bulls can control. Other teams, and Gordon see how the Bulls operate, so they'll think they've got a chance to get him.
- Let one go.
- Pay the luxury tax.
Not really a good set of options, is it?
2. You've got very tepid endorsement of Gordon from what I'd call the Bulls "establishment", be it reporters, players and fans. You've got Sam Smith, saying "Hello Thabo, Goodbye Gordon" and saying sort of funny stuff like this about Gordon on a new contract:
If the Bulls seem set at shooting guard and will go with Hinrich and Sefolosha or even Duhon for a time, can they afford that kind of contract for a sixth man?
I wonder what that qualifies Andres Nocioni as? Sheesh. But still, I think when you see thinking like this, quotes from The Beloved about how much easier it is to play next to Thabo ("I find playing with Thabo I play against my own position more," Hinrich said. "You look at scoring and being aggressive a lot differently. "It is a lot easier on me physically and easier for me to play against guys equal at my position. It's been a while since I've done it. Playing guys at my position, I can get my shot off so much easier at all times"). Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Kirk and Ben's long-term future together, is it?
And then you've got the fans. There are certain folks you run into message boards that, and this is making no value judgement on them, I look to as predictors of how the Bulls think. Everyone blows hot and cold on guys, don't get me wrong. But I think that for whatever reason the way they tend to blow hot and cold on guys tends to also be the way the organization blows hot and cold on guys. And this type of fan is ice cold on Gordon, whether they'll openly admit it (to themselves or others) or just couch it in hypotheticals, scenarios, or slightly inflated fandom of other players (eg Thabo, who, while he's done "OK" as a starter IMO, is not a guy I want as my long-term starter at SG. Hell, he still looks like more of a 3 to me).
----------------
3. It's not like it's been a secret for a long time that I think we're in a "can't live with him, can't live without him" position with Gordon. It's very hard for us to win without him due to the things he can do (create his own shot, create opportunities for others by by virtue of creating his own shot), but it's hard to see us being a championship team with him as a centerpiece in the long run because of the things he can't do that well (most everything else down to remaining upright on his average drive). He remains a young Jason Terry to me.
---------------------------------------------------
I submit that to you to suggest two things.
- Gordon's likely gone.
- Because the Bulls are close to the luxury tax threshold (and have a history of being averse to it), there is an incentive for other teams to make even higher offers to Deng and Gordon. Again, it's sort of the Miami-Clippers situation. Even if we let Gordon walk when he gets a higher offer, there's the possibility this leads to some team offering Deng something like $12-$14M/yr when, if we'd been comfortably under the tax threshold, a team simply wouldn't bother trying to game us. While that might look acceptable, from a long run perspective it could be enormously damaging. It would likely destroy the possibility we have much cap space in 2010 for example, or cost us the use of our MLE down the road.
It's still possible to do something, but the hour is getting late (what, 2 weeks till the trade deadline?) to have much control over what happens What are the options? I posted some options on my blog, but this is getting really long for a comment, so I'll just summarize them here:
- If you really want to keep Gordon, you have to move Noc for expiring contracts, and do it yesterday
- If you really want to avoid the incentive another team has to make us pay every penny possible for Deng, or just control what you get back for Gordon, you need trade him now. I've mentioned Rudy Fernandez several times.
- If you don't get something done by the deadline, IMO the options (sign and trade, letting him walk, paying the tax) start to get pretty ugly.
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 10:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
once again
(and they should trade their pick too)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree on their pick
I know you like Thomas a lot, but if Tyler Hansbrough measures out like I think he will (more Brand or Boozer than Sheldon Williams or Sweetney) and gets penalized enough for being a white boy that he's available when the Bulls pick I'll be pissed if the Bulls don't take him.
OT I know, but generally speaking it's clear to me that, given the Bulls err... fiscal discipline... they need to be thinking in these terms if they're going to succeed.
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been waitng for the return
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, I've now got you and alec
But I'll leave that to the draft diary.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank-you.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For the record
I just don't see enough, at this point, to know one way or another if he's a guy like Brand or Boozer or a guy like Shelden Williams or Marcus Fizer.
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He has the two highest scoring
The proof is so far out in the future, so it's easy for me to tout him, just as it's easy for Matt, et al, to pooh-pooh him. I just like how he plays. He's about the only college player I'll turn the TV on to watch.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Picks! Where have these guys gotten us?
Jay Williams
Curry
Chandler
Hinrich
Deng
Gordon
Thomas
Sefolosha
Noah
Whom did I leave out?
All very high picks. 10 or so games under .500!!
by hhi on Feb 11, 2008 8:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They need
by cranscape on Feb 11, 2008 9:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
would an extension
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they kick in next season
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Matt, assuming
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
(Also, could you please return
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thabo!!!!! Thabo!!!!! Thabo!!!!!
For once I agree with Sam's opinion.
by sue369 on Feb 11, 2008 10:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
3 guard rotation
Thabo either needs to improve his handle or improve his or else it's pretty unlikely that he will become a starter on any team.
by Sambossanova on Feb 11, 2008 11:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
better than Du, like him as a 6th man, but
by T Maple on Feb 11, 2008 11:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Do we even have a good Starting Sg?
Then theres ben gordon, who has the ability to be clutch and is by far the best scorer on the team, even with falling down, but that doesnt excuse falling down. In my oppinion gordons defensivel fallouts, his height, and his inability to remain on his feet really pull him down from being a starter.
Both players are good enough to be the third guard option, but i dont think either one is good enough to be a starter. Thabo might make things easier for kirk, but kirk isnt the greatest scorer. Gordon might take up the scoring load, but his defensive inabilities shift the responsibilities to kirk. Take kirk out and put thabo and gordon in and you have a backcourt thats bound to be turnover prone. Throw duhon in the mix with either thabo or gordon and you have an even shorter backcourt, or an offensively challenged backcourt. Yea...its complicated.
I think this team, if seriously wants to make a good run, needs a better guard. Someone like a brandon Roy would have been perfect (who really knew he was gonna be so good), he has the ability score, is mentally strong enough for the pressures of close games, and is tall! But that ship has sailed. A low post presence would definetly be nice, but it seems we are getting closer to having answers in the paint. Sure A. Gray isnt spectacular, but he can be effective if coupled with energy mongruls T. Thomas, or Joakim Noah, those two by the way have the potential to be offensive and defensive nightmares themselves.
I think having another guard, nay...a better guard than what we have now is really what this team needs. The guards we have now, are all suited to be sixth mans, we need a guard who has length, poise, and a good scorer (basically a taller version of gordon would be nice, or a better offensive player than thabo). If boylan wants he can alternate from starting thabo and gordon for the rest of the year, but its gonna get tired quick.
by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2008 12:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Matt has mentioned Maggette
Is Maggette a realistic hope or a pipe dream?
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Magette
by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know
by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The real problem is...
by cjurmann on Feb 11, 2008 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Scenario
Clippers get: Ben Gordon and Ron Artest
Jazz get: Ben Wallace
Kings get: Nocioni
I think this trade makes a lot of sense for each team, and arguably the most sense for the Clippers. The Kings would probably like to include another bad contract (i.e. Abdur-Rahim to Clips for Aaron Williams, Ross and Brevin Knight) for taking on Nocioni's.
Bulls:
- It appeases Reinsdorf who wouldn't want to eat Kirilenko's monster contract without something coming off the books (Gordon for Cassell swap). He'd have to extend Maggette, but at least Nocioni's contract would be gone as well.
- Boylan/Brown/Pippen/Coach X could play Maggette at the 2 once Deng gets healthy, enabling Hinrich to match up against players his size.
- Split up the PF/C minutes between Kirilenko/Smith/Thomas/Noah. Classic addition by subtraction.
Kings - They get rid of a team cancer who's also been asking to leave for months. While Nocioni isn't full value for Artest, it's likely one of the best offers they'll get. The Kings could always look to expand the deal to get out from under a bad contract.
Clippers - I think they're making out the best in this scenario. BG/Artest for Maggette/Cassell/#1 Pick is a huge windfall for them, and Sterling (another notoriously cheap owner) wouldn't even have to take a financial hit if he wanted to let Artest or BG go and take the cap space.
by FPax on Feb 11, 2008 1:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Trade Scenario
by FPax on Feb 11, 2008 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Those numbers aren't very good at all.
by cjurmann on Feb 11, 2008 4:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the Kings would rather let Artest walk
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: the Kings would rather let Artest walk
Bulls: Maggette, Cassel, Kirilenko and Clips #1
Jazz: Wallace
Clipper: Nocioni and Ben Gordon
by FPax on Feb 11, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
Jazz Game:
Nocioni +19
Thomas -22
by JSlakov on Feb 11, 2008 1:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'd like everyone to take notice of this
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
also
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
defending Tyrus
by tyrus4prez on Feb 11, 2008 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't really ever sour on TT
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
consider me a
by tyrus4prez on Feb 11, 2008 2:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That would be my point too
by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it possible we can sign Gordon for $6-7 mil
by chgobr on Feb 11, 2008 1:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
He's not getting Noc-level money!
I think in that situation what usually happens is the guy slinks off somewhere else. That's the sort of thing that makes for a bad work relationship.
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For the speculative details,
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Harrington screwed himself out of more money
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking
What kind of deal do you see Deng getting? I think around 8-10 per year would be reasonable.
by Bass on Feb 11, 2008 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if
You don't pay someone based on a season's worth of work (well, not unless you're the Knicks and Jerome James).
Just like you wouldn't give someone a sky-high contract for one decent/good season, you wouldn't low-ball someone for a down year.
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
of course
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
seriously chief
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What a dumb thing to say!
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
there's no crying in Blogabull
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 8:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk
BG on the other hand is a soon-to-be RFA.
I wouldn't pay $9-14 mil for a short SG who doesn't defend, can't make his teammates better and falls on his face or turns the ball over at the end of every quarter. (This is mostly extrapolated from the very entertaining and insightful game threads on this site that I have been enjoying silently for some time)
Low-balling, I think this is a reasonable salary for a sixth man? No?
by Bass on Feb 11, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Better Example
by cubbybear on Feb 11, 2008 8:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't see
by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps not
But then I was blown away by the Grizzlies move and particularly the Suns. Still waiting to wake up from that one.
by Bass on Feb 11, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Any chance the other teams go for this?
With the trades the Suns and Grizzlies are making... Why not? :D
by Bass on Feb 11, 2008 2:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That would be the sickest trade ever
by eross226 on Feb 11, 2008 7:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or at least in the last two days...
Not that I would do this if I'm the Clippers or Utah...
by Bass on Feb 12, 2008 12:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A look into the future
Use Noc, Gordon, and Smith for Childress and Wilcox (or better, if possible)
Switch to the Triangle Offense, hire some combination of Clemons, Pip, and Harp (or someone else who knows the Triangle)
This would give us Thabo, Kirk, Childress, and Duhon in the backcourt and Deng, Noah, TT, Wilcox, and Gray in the frontcourt. Nine players who can pass, drive to the basket and play multiple positions. We would finally have a player who could post up, but it wouldn't be our PF, it would be Thabo. Can you imagine Thabo under the basket being guarded bt Nash, Williams, Paul, etc. A team doesn't necessarily have to use a PF to have a post up game, just ask John Starks and the Knicks.
The fly in the ointment would be that the other GM's in the NBA recognize that Gordon isn't worth that much-the mid-level exception-maybe. So we might have to add Kirk to the pot. Maybe a draft choice would be enough.
by hlac on Feb 11, 2008 10:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
the need for a "true" PG
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 8:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
"true" = "awesome"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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