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Adventures in small sample size

Can't Sam just be happy with Thabo taking Chris Duhon's place in the rotation?

Of course not, Thabo's play is a step towards pushing Ben Gordon out the door.

Thabo's having a good stretch, and after his dismal first half of the season is at least confirming what should've been happening all season: him as the 3rd guard instead of Duhon. But between this meager success and Gordon's benching and then injury, in Sam's mind this is the logical extension.

Gordon is one year older than Thabo, yet Thabo, who has been until now a dismal offensive player, gets this extended development track while Gordon gets rewarded as the one of the team's best players by being constantly jerked in and out of the lineup and continually called out as the team's weakness. Yes, he's having a poor season, but he normally finishes stronger than he starts and once he does get back from a wrist injury (paging Dr. BaB Commenter for a consult) I expect at least a return to his career norms.

And luckily Boylan has no real authority, so coach Wallace won't allow the stance of injured players not be given their jobs back. Fair enough in principle, Boylan, but lets just say better players? This road trip has given the chance for some guys to perform well, but they're a better team with Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng. Sure it's fun in stretches to watch the lesser talented scrap towards competition each game, but not as the franchise direction.

When they get back it's not a matter of limiting Thabo and Tyrus Thomas, it's about keeping Duhon and Nocioni off the court. That's the benefit of depth, not to supplant the best players. Fixing Paxson's phone to get him to clean out the frontcourt glut would help too.

I'd even swallow my bile and accept Gordon coming off the bench if Thabo starts. But having Gordon deemed expendable? What exactly do the Bulls plan to do without him? Chris Duhon as the 3rd guard again? I can't hold that sickening reaction down.

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my favorite part
Gordon rejected a $50 million contract extension in October. If the Bulls seem set at shooting guard and will go with Hinrich and Sefolosha or even Duhon for a time, can they afford that kind of contract for a sixth man? Should they? Especially when Sefolosha seems deserving of the minutes now?

Huh??  Seem set at shooting guard?  On the road trip it's obvious that Sam had nothing better to do (he watched people ice skate?) so he just dreamt up insane things to say.

Sam, like too many people here, often go too crazy when a person has one or two good games.  The BaB'ers were ready to flip when Viktor scored a few points last week.

Yeah Thabo has been playing well, but how does that make BG expendable?  Is there some master plan for Griffin in place that I don't know about??

I can live with the idea of him coming off the bench, but to just deem him as no longer needed and suggesting that Duhon can fill that role is completely dumb.

Just last week in his mailbag, he said this:

Yes, Ben is putting it up, but he's hardly alone of late. But no one on the team can score like he can.

Sam is worse than Paxson at canceling out his own words and ideas.  I mark up this article as complete hogwash and as him having nothing better to do.  I doubt he believes it himself.

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 8:56 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Ben Gordan
I think BG is a great player, he's just havin one of those years. BG always comes through in the end, especially in big games.  Sefolosha is doing a great job filling in (duhon as well) but can they carry a team like BG?

by Hendo g on Feb 11, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Gordon carries the team,
so much as comes to the rescue.

He has "microwave" written all over him.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ever bother investigating that?
or is anecdotal sixth man glory enough for some rather pea-brained remarks?
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 2:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

if BG
hasn't come to the rescue, then who has??

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Read it again Scottie.
alec is saying that BG does not carry this team . It's more like he has come to their rescue.
Never went to church camp but I did go to Girl Scout camp. If you ever need help making a campfire I'm your girl. :P

by sue369 on Feb 11, 2008 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Now comes the tricky part
Pax did a good job of assembling a young team of desirable parts, and they've been fun to watch.  Now how do you pay and play them all?  I've got no issue with BG, Sef and Lu sharing the 2-3 minutes, especially if Kirk's improvement from playing PG on both ends continues.  Let me be the first (I think) to bow to your Noc stance; I was wrong, you were right.  We'd be in better shape if he just went poof.  Same for BW and Du.  God, wouldn't it be a great summer if we ended the year with Kirk, Sef, BG, Lu, Ty1, TT and Noah all signed, playing and still the "best up and coming"?  Damn that 2006 offseason!

by California Al on Feb 11, 2008 8:58 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Thabo is the anti-Gordon
Thabo is a great defensive player and a mediocre offensive player so far while Gordon is a mediocre defensive player and a great shooter.  Unfortunately, Gordon has been too one dimensional this season.  Gordon isn't a great playmaker and he has trouble with double teams...not good when we give him the ball and ask him to create and watch him struggle when pressured.  Thabo may or may not be the answer...but so far he's outperformed Gordon.  Gordon has been the Bulls' 2nd best player before this season so I know he's valuable...but it would be interesting to see how Paxson signs everyone when Gordon and Deng are asking for a lot of money.  Do we sign these "core players" and become stuck with the team we have?  It hasn't gotten us anywhere this season.  It would be nice to trade away our expendable players (Nocioni, Wallace, Smith, etc.) but until that happens...salaries seem pretty important for this franchise.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 9:16 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

It all comes down to money
If BG can be happy in Chicago for $8-10 mil/year, I think a deal gets done.  If he wants more, I don't see him in Chicago.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:23 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

well they hopefully can do a sign/trade
for another guard who can score then. Like Scottie says above, Sam claims they're 'set' at SG, which I completely disagree with

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd agree they are set
at 1-10, they just need to reorder the rotation and start playing together the right way.  The talent is there, it just needs to develop and mesh.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

set 1-10 without Gordon?
that's the worst backcourt in the league, and a still-young frontcourt (if they're truly letting it ride with developing and/or meshing).

This is another topic for another day, but a new competent coach will help, but they need a talent upgrade as well to get to championship level. Heck, a truly talented team shouldn't need a great coach, or have to worry about contract jitters and other such nonsense.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

1-10
including Gordon, today, right now.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

who's going to to give BG more than that
and where is he a fit?  Teams like Phoenix or GS are the only ones that come to mind where defense isn't particularly important and where BG's offensive talents would be enhanced.  Maybe Portland, where Roy could be the on the ball guard.  Do you see any of them making a deal to get BG and pay him $12 mil/year?  Does BG start over Monta Ellis?  Does he start next to Nash for the smallest backcourt in the league?
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well then qualifying offer works for both sides
Tough break for Paxson knowing that one of his most talented players is so unwanted around the league. Shows what his draft record has been.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You can say that about 95% of the league
about guys who think they are worth $12+/year.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Id hate to lose BG for nothing
Especially, when I almost choked when the Bulls drafted him instead of Andre Iguodala and Deng.  BG's jumper grew on me and this team wouldnt have gone anywhere last year without it...
"We are who you thought we were"

by Thirdrock on Feb 11, 2008 11:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We'd have to get a
guard in return, for sure.  But after reading Paxson's comments on Gordon's injury, and then hearing Paxson on The Score this past weekend, I came away thinking that Gordon was the next to go.

Gordon's offense is so important for this team, but his defense has killed us.  In the Pistons series, Billups took advantage of him every time, and it left Rip with a mismatch on Kirk.  Now in these past two months, I've seen Thabo hold Baron Davis to 8/24 shooting and outplay Rip and Wade, and it's made me think he's the guy to play the bulk of the SG minutes.  Notice how Hinrich's play has improved now that he doesn't have to guard the opponent's best player every game.

I'm with Smith on this one.  Gordon said he didn't regret rejecting the $50 million for five years, meaning it'll take more than that to keep him.  For a team strapped for cash already, it doesn't make sense to me to give $10+ million a year to a role player.

by YaoPau on Feb 11, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair
Deng didn't exactly go gangbusters on Tayshaun Prince.

by jpx7 on Feb 12, 2008 5:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thabo: so hot right now
It's always easy to jump on Sam who always seems to struggle with balancing his own conjecture with fact.  But if you take him for what he is -- a Bulls fan who happens to write about the team for a living and often needs to make shit up to fill word counts  -- he can be so entertaining.  I bet 30% of what gets posted on this blog is reaction to something dumb (or at least peculiar) that Sam has written.  I'll leave it to KC and Hanley to do game recaps and to tell me when the team gets stuck on the runway because of a storm or something.

Back to the hot Thabo action.  I thought this quote from Kirk was important:

I find playing with Thabo I play against my own position more....  You look at scoring and being aggressive a lot differently.

It is a lot easier on me physically and easier for me to play against guys equal at my position. It's been a while since I've done it. Playing guys at my position, I can get my shot off so much easier at all times.


The team has already invested a lot in Kirk and it appears that the organization is committed to him (he's NEVER gotten jerked out of the starting line-up because of a bad stretch).  Though that sentiment in itself is not enough to make a roster decision, it is a meaningful endorsement for Thabo.

Sam should have left it at that, but if he had, this thread wouldn't exist and we would have nothing to keep us occupied on a Monday morning.

by paxson43 on Feb 11, 2008 9:37 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

it's not just Sam
there's a vocal minority around here thinking Thabo is the future at SG, in between giving their medical opinions on Gordon's wrist.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

heh
It's probably too early to say whether Thabo should be the future at SG...but you act as if he's definitely not the future.  The guy can still improve, you know...just like Thomas and Noah.  Or is Thomas and Noah not really future starting caliber players?  With that said, do you feel Gordon is the future at SG?

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Thabo
may be the worst starting SG in the league. Far better than Duhon, but still.

Like I said, just because Thabo's a 2nd year player people forget that he came sold as a finished overseas product. He's roughly a year older than Noah and 2.5 years older than Thomas. Plus Noah (and Thomas for that matter) have produced far more.

I just don't get whey Ben Gordon's pigeonholed as a bench 'sparkplug' (or whatever), yet Thabo doesn't get the same treatment as what he likely is: a role player to come in and defend wings. In fact, I love that role for him since as a backup 3 (as well as 2) he can take yet another of Nocioni's roles.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

worst SG in the league?
So I guess Ben Wallace in his prime in Detroit was the worst center in the league?  His offense is mediocre but isn't THAT bad.  He actually goes for the high percentage shot and drives to the basket more than any of our other guards except Duhon.  Thabo isn't DPOY caliber like Wallace has but I think he's close to being an elite wing defender...and his offense isn't as bad as Wallace.  Remember how terrible offensively Ron Artest looked when he played for the Bulls?  Ron eventually became an all-star.  Yea Thabo was supposed to be pretty polished when he came here...but there is no substitute for NBA experience.  Thabo's terrible start to the season and big improvement later on seems to show that.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A defensive center is more valuable
than a defensive wing.

At age 23 Artest had a PER over 17. And I'd guess about 50 pounds too.

And regardless, this team needs offense. Having one of the worst starting SGs in the league...

(I suppose Rashad McCants is worse. Larry Hughes too. By next year, Cuttino Mobley, Mo Petersen? Willie Green starts for some reason. Whoever starts for Utah or Orlando)

...is fine if you can make it up elsewhere.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's true that
This team needs offense...but I think a big part of why they've been competitive with all the main scorers out is this team is finally able to get stops.  Before, it would seem like we hardly made a run to get back into the game once the other team pulls away because we couldn't get stops.  Recently, we've become a team that keeps closing the gap when the other team makes a run because of our defense.  Getting the loose balls, rebounding, steals, taking the higher percentage shot instead of taking contested jumpers...all have played a role to why we haven't been blown out with all our scorers out.

Also, Thabo's PER is pretty pitiful right now...but I don't think we should be judging players solely by PER.  It's not really fair to compare Ron Artest's production in his 4th season in the league while averaging 30 minutes a game in each of his 4 seasons to a guy not even in his 2nd year in the NBA and couldn't get off the bench until recently.  I'm not saying Thabo will ever be as good as Ron..but I think that type of player is his ceiling.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

age matters
I don't remember Artest at age 23 anyway, I was using PER because you remarked how bad he was offensively.

Why is it your goal to see a team that 'closes gaps' and 'doesn't get blown out'? You're listing these as Thabo's great contributions.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If age matters
Is LeBron James better than Michael Jordan?  I'd rather hold off on jumping to conclusions until players enter their prime...and Thabo isn't there yet.  I still believe NBA experience is a lot more valuable than whatever league he played for before he got here.  My goal isn't to close gaps...I was just using that as an example of the importance of defense.  We obviously need both.  Gordon and Thabo only provide one right now.  We haven't been able to win thus far with either one...but one of them wants a big contract.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

About Ron Artest
I was saying he was a bad offensive player when he played for the Bulls his first two years...and he was.  He was a 40% Field goal shooter and 30% from three point range and about as good of a free throw shooter as Thabo has shown recently.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Filling the offensive void
To your point about finding offense to replace BG, presumably liberating Hinrich from his role as Ace Wing Defender would allow him to do more PG things.  Thabo may not have to match Gordon's offensive output if Hinrich is able to do a better job distributing the ball and getting the rest of the team easy buckets.  

by paxson43 on Feb 11, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i concur...
losing gordon means you lose his 15-20 shot attempts per game, but those shot attempts do not magically disappear, they are dispersed to other team members.  with gordon shooting 42% and the bulls team shooting 42%, one could say that the bulls don't even miss a beat on offense...  on top of that, if you replace gordon in the starting lineup with a SG that can rebound, dribble and pass better than gordon (and turn the ball over less), most would argue that you have a net improvement.

it's fun having a 6'-0" SG who can light it up 1 out of every 2-3 games, but those games where he can't light it up?... or those games he decides that he's a point guard with time running off the clock?... those are the games we lose.  if we lose a game where gordon scores 35 points, it's still a loss.  don't get me wrong, i've been to games where he's on fire, and he's exciting as hell... but i've been to others where he's a non-factor from the start.  gordon is not the long term solution at SG for any team in the NBA, let alone the Bulls.  i'm not 100% convinced that sefalosha is either, but he looks to have the right mix of height, length, dribbling and suspect shooting skills to peak optimism...

by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 7:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You're going to say that
after seeing Thabo starting only about 20 games and seemingly getting better progressively over that stretch?  I wouldn't run the offense through Thabo yet, but he definitely looks to me like somebody who could average 18/6/4 while playing above average defense.  And his jumpshot isn't as bad as it was made out to be.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've been thinking along the same lines.
I'm fine with Thabo starting because I believe Thabo plays better starting, not because Gordon is better coming off the bench.  And because it makes it easier for Thabo to backup Deng making Nocioni completely expendable.  Hinrich, Gordon, and Thabo can all play 32+ min/g that way.

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 10:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hinrich, Sefolosha, and BG
can get 32min/g without any playing at SF.  Noc is a fine back up for Deng and Deng needs to be limited to 32 min/g as well before his achilles gets anymore like the rubber band in my wife's vacuum cleaner.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll counter your point
Noc sucks and his contract is crippling everything :)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Your Noc
sucks stuff is overboard,  he is still a 37% shooter from the three point line and grabbing rebounds.  He obviously needs a better shot selection and doesn't need to be a focal point (which will come with a solid new coach) and his contract is prohibitive this year; but he is definitely a backup caliber small forward in the league.

by Kemp on Feb 11, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i'll counter with an older regurgitated posting...
noc vs. deng - 3pt shot
over the past 4 years, the comparison of 3pt attempts per game/ 3pt fg%:

noc:
2004 - 1.2/ 29%
2005 - 2.9/ 39%
2006 - 3.9/ 38%
2007 - 5.0/ 37%

deng:
2004 - 1.9/ 26%
2005 - 1.0/ 26%
2006 - 0.0/ 14%
2007 - 0.3/ 40%

deng is always commended for his good fg%, but he's a small forward that rarely steps outside the 3pt line.  in the past 3 years, you would think that he would have expanded his range to make himself more valuable by being able to spread the defenses.  it's actually the opposite in that it seems he has regressed.  he is an above average slasher and jump shooter, but until he can step out beyong the 3pt line, his true value as a small forward (or even a slow shooting guard matt) will never be realized on a teamwide level.

am i saying that noc is better than deng?  no, they are 2 different players that offer different skill sets at the 3.  but i hardly think noc is deserving of the perpetual thrashing he tends to receive here.  and if the deng supporters feel that noc is expendable, how about hearing an analysis on why deng can't shoot a three?  

i would still like to see deng put on 25 lbs and become a back to the basket/ slashing power forward....

by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 7:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Skiles told him to
stop shooting 3s so he did.  He worked on shooting 3s this summer, and the ones he took this season went in just fine.

Deng doesn't get thrashed because he's the best player on the team, he's the only guy on the roster that can reliably make a layup, and unlike Noc he actually bothers to guard his man.  

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 9:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

true...
"I love that role for him since as a backup 3 (as well as 2) he can take yet another of Nocioni's roles"

although I would add that he could also find minutes as a PG (paired with Gordon). Why would Hinrich be the only one benefitting from Thabo playing alongside him for stretches ? ;-)

Finally, I think Thabo (while not the best offensive player in the NBA by far) is a little bit undervalued at that. He can be very good on offense if you don't consider offense as only shooting ability.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've been one of Thabo's strongest
supporters even when he couldn't make a bad shot and gave the ball to the other team all the time, but you have to be realistic.  Thabo's not a kid anymore.  He'll learn to turn it over less and shoot better, but he's not going to be better than a 4th option on offense on a good team.  Paxson thought his upside was Doug Christie, which seems fair.

Thabo should be part of the future, but that doesn't mean fans should be in hurry to throw away the best offensive player on the team.  

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 10:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think a big key is
Thabo isn't asking for over 10 million a year to keep him.  Sure, Ben Gordon is valuable to the team.  Ben Gordon earlier in the season even thinks he was the best player on the team and seems to want a contract that reflects that.  Paxson signed Hinrich for too much and Nocioni for too much...is he going to make the same mistake with Gordon?  I would love to keep Gordon, but I don't want him ending up being another contract we hope to get rid of.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

sbulls
well said. I'm going to try and go by your philosophy of not continually repeating oneself and stick with this response.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

At first, I assumed the "small"
in the "small sample size" of your title was going to be a reference to Ben Gordon' stature.  BG's personal small sample size creates a bigger team liability than his career 18 pts/game can hope to mask. Gordon's defensive deficiencies also bear directly on Hinrich's productivity, both offensive and defensively.  

Gordon's passport out of town was stamped the minute he was shifted back to 6th man.  It was either accept the huge pay cut that goes with being a bench player, or salvage some trade value for the guy and move him before the deadline.  

Sam's article makes perfect sense.  Gordon, along with Ben Wallace, are the prime guys to be moved.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 9:43 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

oh, you
I thought shifting to the bench was just a formality, that he'd get big minutes no matter what? Ginobili's payed pretty well.

(That's what I heard, anyway.)

Of course it could be an indication that he'll likely be gone, although hopefully it was just Boylan 'trying something' and Pax giving him that one bone.

I know it's conventional wisdom that whatever Gordon does is negated by being short. But it's, like, wrong. And Hinrich should know that it only helps his value that he can guard biger guards to mask what he doesn't do on offense.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

All signs point to Gordon being gone.
His 'peeps' are even leaking stories about taking the one year qualifying offer.  Sure, everyone likes his instant offense, but my reading is that management would be quite happy to see about 10 or 12 points of instant offense out of him.  

Gordon's sloppy ball domination, bad offensive judgment, and the fact that he's nothing more than a defensive chew-toy for the rest of the league's shooting guards...these all make him either expendable, or a nice, small-minute, instant-offense-as-needed role player off the bench.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a valid question
What is worth more?

A better then average scoring SG who is a defensive liability...

or an average scoring SG who provides stellar defense and even is a plus on the boards.

If Thabo is consistently good for at least 20 points a game, I'd say losing BG and using his cap space for other needed priorities would end up being most beneficial in the long term.

by RogersPark Kris on Feb 11, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

20 ppg?
I'll limit it to guards/wings:

James, Bryant, Iverson, Anthony, Wade, Jefferson, Redd, Maggette, Davis, Butler, Johnson, Carter, Jackson, Paul, Howard, Richardson, Pierce, Crawford(!)

I don't see Thabo joining that group.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of that group
You've long been a proponent of going after Maggette...which would solve all our SG ills.  Nobody writes about it...is it even on the 'possible' radar?
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't you rather have any of those guys
before BG, too?  They are all better than he is too.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That is a bit divisive
if you get into the 18-19 point a game area, the names look a lot less pleasing, and if we are talking about Gordon it should be 17-21 not 20-31.

by Kemp on Feb 11, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Good grief
Gordon hardly ever guards shooting guards.  He almost always takes the point guard.  And you obviously have no context to place Gordon in.  Would you say the same things about Ray Allen?  They're actually pretty similar players.  But, Ray's never been put in the lousy situations Gordon has been put in.

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Allen played in Milwaukee right
That's a pretty lousy situation... ;-)
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it wasn't
when he was playing there.  Things went down hill after he was traded.

by KT on Feb 11, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Gordon seldom plays defense
against sg's, true, but his inept defense  forces Hinrich to play out of position on defense, where he's personally less effective though still more effective than BG, but which then reduces Hinrich's effectiveness on offense.

BG is just a first-falling domino no matter where you try to hide him.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you're inept
Our friend, plus-minus rating, says the opposite. Until this craptacular season, Hinrich and Gordon were the best backcourt, Gordon was 1a to Deng's 1, and Gordon was clutchy clutchmeister at the end of games. Does that make him the last domino?
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 11:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd be happy to have BG
fill a Vinnie Johnson role for the Bulls.  I just don't think it's in the cards.  He needs to see what he's worth on the open market first...find out he's not worth nearly what he thinks he is...then settle into that role for some team...probably not the Bulls, because he'll hate them by them for either 1) ruining his value, or 2) showing him what he's really worth.  

That, in one run-on sentence, is the whole Ben Gordon career arc.  I've mentioned this a number of times and you've shot it down every time...I guess I just can't learn.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Lazy...you're right,
I could have worked harder to break it up into a couple sentences.  

And speculative...well, right again.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hardy-har
Vinnie Johnson came off the bench! Gordon has done that!
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

See My Post Above
Our friend, Kirk Hinrich, pretty much explicitly lays it out there in a direct freaking quote.

Now personally, I think Hinrich saying things that way is a sort of douchebag thing to do. He's throwing Gordon (and Duhon's) size out there as a reason for his poor play even though it was obviously no different than the last three years he was playing next to those guys.

He didn't have problems now, so to blame his difficult defensive assignments now is a load of crap.

But at the end of the day, there's also some truth to it.  Not the right thing for Kirk to think or say, but there's truth in it.  Especially if you've got the guy who has to play with him openly lobbying about it.

So what do you do?  Trade Kirk?  Well, if you still have the problem.  The fact is Kirk is one of the better fits for Gordon league-wide.  So if he's throwing his hands up and saying he'd rather play with Thabo (whether justified or not for him to be doing it), you've got a pretty big problem.

by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's dumb too.
I think you meant "truthiness." Is innocuous quote driven speculation part of your magic metric?
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That
was funny.
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I couldn't with alec agree more
Hopefully that's not one of the signs of the apocalypse.  ;-)

I love his scoring on this team, but that speaks more to the team deficiencies than Gordon's value.  On a good team, he is a killer 6th man - he just doesn't do other things well enough to start (IMO).

With the vast talent, quickness, and athletic ability he possesses, one would think he would be a much better defender than he is.  Not that I expect All-Defensive team from him, but he should not lose his man as often as he does.

I was certainly not pleased with him going to the bench for Duhon (that was not and upgrade).  However, if this Thabo keeps playing, if he "get's it", then I'm all for Gordon coming off the bench and relegating Duhon to the 4th guard/backup PG (aka: "Kirk's in foul trouble - again").

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How much is a non all star worth?
BG is asking for all star type money ( 10 - 13 per).

I think that's what this will all come down to anyways.

by RogersPark Kris on Feb 11, 2008 12:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a great question.
Especially considering the Bulls haven't had an All-Star in 10 years.  Seems to me like they shouldn't be paying anyone on the roster that kind of money.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 12:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Matt already said it
Ginobili is a killer sixth man too. Imagine what Gilbert Arenas could do off the bench!
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bad comparison
Agent 0 is a PG, he's (listed at) 6'4", and he's a 2-time All-Star.  He does other things (twice as many steals & assists as BG).

Holy crap: NBA.com lists BG at 6'3".  No way.

If my sarcasm-detector is busted, just ignore this...

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think, like any good professor,
he was just trying to give examples of 'lazy' and 'speculative.'
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But
I broke my post into multiple sentences...

I got nothin' on the 'speculative' point, though.  But this would be an awfully dull place without speculation.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right.
Actually, my comment was just plain lazy.  
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 2:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

was at
the heat game last year, and white chocolate standing directly next to gordon looked to be a couple inches taller... white chocolate is listed at 6'1"...

by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 7:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They have this thing called a combine
where they use a measuring device with standardized units and everything.  He's 6'1" without shoes and 6'2 1/4" with shoes so he gets listed at 6'3".
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/measurements.php?year=2004&sort2=ASC& draft=0&sort=2

But, don't let facts get in your way.  I'm sure estimating that Shaq is 7/6ths of a Jason Williams is a significantly more accurate standard.

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 8:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

who said...
anything about jason williams?  there was a white chocolate bar sitting on the scorer's table and and gordon was about 2" shorter than it.  with shoes.  i don't know the type of shoes gordon was wearing, or the thickness of the heels, or the make of the rubber soles.

it's always acceptable to correct someone or to offer your own input, but to do it without a trace of humility or tact speaks volumes.

by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 8:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry for being a jerk, but
Gordon is in his 4th year.  This height speculation stuff isn't new, and people have been directed over and over again to the actual measurements.  Yours was one more in a long string of lazy comparisons today, and lazy comparisons make me cranky.  And whether Gordon is 6'0" or 6'2" doesn't make a significant difference.  He's a point guard sized shooting guard either way.

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 9:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ginobili
I'd rather have Ginobili then BG at SG for Bulls

I don't think the problem is if BG comes off bench or starts

I think the problem is salary cap.  You can't pay 5 guys starter money (Kirk, Wallace, Deng, BG, Noc) while staying under the cap and be a championship contender when none of those 5 players are dominate players.

One common thing used to be was to point to Det, because they won without a "superstar" but their roster was better then Bulls

by NY Chicago Fan on Feb 11, 2008 2:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you're right
but as has already been said, the blame goes to Paxson for paying Noce "starter money"...THAT my friend is why they are in this current bind...Paxson was clearly duped into giving Noce that phat azz contract and well, you see the results of that...

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If the deals for BG and Deng are structured
correctly, they can avoid the tax next year too.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 2:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That depends
on the sort of offers they get.  Other teams making offers have an incentive to structure their offer to one (or both) of those guys to maximize our tax exposure.

by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

also true
so it comes down to how much they want to stay in chicago.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 8:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Noc
I disagree that Noc contract is the problem

the problem would be if both Deng and BG are signed to 10million dollar deals to go along with Kirk and Wallace

neither Deng or BG is good enough (and neither are Kirk and Wallace) to lead a team to championship

its not fair to point out any one of them, its that the whole doesn't equal enough

by NY Chicago Fan on Feb 11, 2008 6:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

While You were writing this
I was putting together a post for my own blog, titled simply
Prediction: Gordon not be a Bull in 2008.

I base this on several things:

1. The Bulls have shown themselves to be extremely luxury tax averse and have mismanaged things to the extent that they'll likely have to pay the tax to keep both Gordon and Deng. I say mis-managed because if the Bulls knew these constraints going in (and I think Pax would be incompetent not to) I think it's simply mismanagement to sign Andres Nocioni to a deal that will play him $8M next year and then be in a position to lose Ben Gordon for having to pay the luxury tax.  The Bulls currently project to be about $19M under the luxury tax threshold for next year, based on their current roster and around $2M for their first round pick.  If Deng and Gordon were to get backloaded offers of around 6 years, $64M (which is fairly similar to the 5 year $54M deal they both declined), they can both be signed for about $17M next year.

However, if some other team forces the Bulls to match a significantly higher offer on Deng or Gordon, or even does something like front-load the same sort of offer the Bulls might make (a 6yr/$64M deal for one of those guys frontloaded would start at $12.96M) then the Bulls total outlay for those two guys next season ends up at between $20M and $26M.  That puts the Bulls between $1M and $6M over the luxury tax threshold.

The danger here is pretty simple.  Any team with cap room can look at the Bulls and think it's possible to steal one of our RFAs.  And based on front loading, they wouldn't really even have to significantly overpay to do it.  Basically a team could just do what Miami did to the LA Clippers a couple years back.  The Heat extended a big offer to Elton Brand, and while the Clippers matched it, they then didn't want to match the offer the Heat made next to Lamar Odom.

When thinking about how the Bulls operate financially, I tend the think the Clippers are a good model. :(

So what options do the Bulls have if they do nothing:

  1. Not deal with Gordon and/or Deng and hope one of them doesn't get an offer starting at more than about $6M from another team. This seems unlikely to me.  This really isn't a choice since it's not something the Bulls can control.  Other teams, and Gordon see how the Bulls operate, so they'll think they've got a chance to get him.
  2. Let one go.
  3. Pay the luxury tax.
---------------------------------------

Not really a good set of options, is it?  

2. You've got very tepid endorsement of Gordon from what I'd call the Bulls "establishment", be it reporters, players and fans. You've got Sam Smith, saying "Hello Thabo, Goodbye Gordon" and saying sort of funny stuff like this about Gordon on a new contract:

If the Bulls seem set at shooting guard and will go with Hinrich and Sefolosha or even Duhon for a time, can they afford that kind of contract for a sixth man?

I wonder what that qualifies Andres Nocioni as?  Sheesh.  But still, I think when you see thinking like this, quotes from The Beloved about how much easier it is to play next to Thabo ("I find playing with Thabo I play against my own position more," Hinrich said. "You look at scoring and being aggressive a lot differently. "It is a lot easier on me physically and easier for me to play against guys equal at my position. It's been a while since I've done it. Playing guys at my position, I can get my shot off so much easier at all times").  Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Kirk and Ben's long-term future together, is it?  

And then you've got the fans.  There are certain folks you run into message boards that, and this is making no value judgement on them, I look to as predictors of how the Bulls think. Everyone blows hot and cold on guys, don't get me wrong. But I think that for whatever reason the way they tend to blow hot and cold on guys tends to also be the way the organization blows hot and cold on guys.  And this type of fan is ice cold on Gordon, whether they'll openly admit it (to themselves or others) or just couch it in hypotheticals, scenarios, or slightly inflated fandom of other players (eg Thabo, who, while he's done "OK" as a starter IMO, is not a guy I want as my long-term starter at SG.  Hell, he still looks like more of a 3 to me).

----------------

3. It's not like it's been a secret for a long time that I think we're in a "can't live with him, can't live without him" position with Gordon. It's very hard for us to win without him due to the things he can do (create his own shot, create opportunities for others by by virtue of creating his own shot), but it's hard to see us being a championship team with him as a centerpiece in the long run because of the things he can't do that well (most everything else down to remaining upright on his average drive).  He remains a young Jason Terry to me.

---------------------------------------------------

I submit that to you to suggest two things.

  1. Gordon's likely gone.
  2. Because the Bulls are close to the luxury tax threshold (and have a history of being averse to it), there is an incentive for other teams to make even higher offers to Deng and Gordon. Again, it's sort of the Miami-Clippers situation. Even if we let Gordon walk when he gets a higher offer, there's the possibility this leads to some team offering Deng something like $12-$14M/yr when, if we'd been comfortably under the tax threshold, a team simply wouldn't bother trying to game us. While that might look acceptable, from a long run perspective it could be enormously damaging.  It would likely destroy the possibility we have much cap space in 2010 for example, or cost us the use of our MLE down the road.
So how can the Bulls avoid this situation? I'm not sure the Bulls are thinking that far ahead.  If they were, they'd have actively pursued something like a Nocioni sign and trade and/or not signed up Smith.

It's still possible to do something, but the hour is getting late (what, 2 weeks till the trade deadline?) to have much control over what happens What are the options?  I posted some options on my blog, but this is getting really long for a comment, so I'll just summarize them here:

  1. If you really want to keep Gordon, you have to move Noc for expiring contracts, and do it yesterday
  2. If you really want to avoid the incentive another team has to make us pay every penny possible for Deng, or just control what you get back for Gordon, you need trade him now.  I've mentioned Rudy Fernandez several times.
  3. If you don't get something done by the deadline, IMO the options (sign and trade, letting him walk, paying the tax) start to get pretty ugly.

by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 10:12 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

once again
Nocioni ruins everything.

(and they should trade their pick too)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree on their pick
Hitting on first round picks is the ticket to success.  Especially when it comes to a team that doesn't seem to be that great at dealing with trades, free agency or the luxury tax.

I know you like Thomas a lot, but if Tyler Hansbrough measures out like I think he will (more Brand or Boozer than Sheldon Williams or Sweetney) and gets penalized enough for being a white boy that he's available when the Bulls pick I'll be pissed if the Bulls don't take him.

OT I know, but generally speaking it's clear to me that, given the Bulls err... fiscal discipline... they need to be thinking in these terms if they're going to succeed.

by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've been waitng for the return
of the draft thread to mention this, but since you open the Hansbrough box...holy shit! did you see his game last night?  The guy is just a monster.  He destroys every front line they put out there.  39 and 13 last night, including 17-19 from the line.
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ok, I've now got you and alec
pegged as 'people who think Hansborough will be any good and therefore I don't have to listen to about basketball anymore'

But I'll leave that to the draft diary.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank-you.
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

For the record
Mine wasn't a definitive endorsement of him but a pretty heavily qualified one. :P

I just don't see enough, at this point, to know one way or another if he's a guy like Brand or Boozer or a guy like Shelden Williams or Marcus Fizer.

by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 12:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He has the two highest scoring
games in the Dean Dome (39, 40), which opened in 1986, so it's seen some pretty good performers pass through.

  The proof is so far out in the future, so it's easy for me to tout him, just as it's easy for Matt, et al, to pooh-pooh him.  I just like how he plays.  He's about the only college player I'll turn the TV on to watch.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Picks! Where have these guys gotten us?
Brand
Jay Williams
Curry
Chandler
Hinrich
Deng
Gordon
Thomas
Sefolosha
Noah

Whom did I leave out?

All very high picks.  10 or so games under .500!!

by hhi on Feb 11, 2008 8:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They need
to work on developing the picks they have...which judging by the way they've treated their last two years worth of picks why wish a talented player to come here and be benched?  They just got a coach for their young bigs.  Another pick pretty much means another bench warmer.  They'd have to change their whole philosophy on basketball before another pick will help our team.

by cranscape on Feb 11, 2008 9:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

would an extension
for Deng and Gordon necessarily kick in next year, or could it be off a year like Hinrich's was?  I am guessing that the extensions do kick in next year since they didn't sign them the first year they were eligible.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

they kick in next season
and they're base-year players for that season as well.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Matt, assuming
the Bulls are trying to trade Gordon...what's a likely destination?  What can we expect in return?
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:45 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

(Also, could you please return
the draft diary to the top ten list?  I'd gladly give up either of mine...both of which added together aren't worth displacing the draft diary.)
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:49 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Thabo!!!!! Thabo!!!!! Thabo!!!!!
He should be the starting SG for this team. By BG turning down his contract extention and not having a very good season so far I think he's gone.

For once I agree with Sam's opinion.

Never went to church camp but I did go to Girl Scout camp. If you ever need help making a campfire I'm your girl. :P

by sue369 on Feb 11, 2008 10:58 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

3 guard rotation
I think the main problem is that Thabo sucks at running the point which I think is what he was supposed to do part time thus replacing du du.  Gordon sucks at it too.  If one of them could run the point we would be set and I would like it as a three guard rotation.  

Thabo either needs to improve his handle or improve his or else it's pretty unlikely that he will become a starter on any team.

by Sambossanova on Feb 11, 2008 11:13 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

better than Du, like him as a 6th man, but
as long as he & Kirk are the starting backcourt this team will only go so far. I just don't see that ever being a starting combo that'll win a championship, and I'm sure other GMs think so too. Pax probably knows this, and if BG won't truly ever be satisfied as a bench player, or if he only seeks top dollar, Pax will have to lose him.

by T Maple on Feb 11, 2008 11:55 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Do we even have a good Starting Sg?
So i agree that kirk plays better with thabo, and that thabos size gives the team a bit of an edge, but its not that big of an edge. Thabo has shown that he CAN BE mentally weak at times, and deng nor hinrich have yet shown "clutch" moments. Im not knocking on thabos ability to play, but i think his abilities will only go so far, especially offensively.

Then theres ben gordon, who has the ability to be clutch and is by far the best scorer on the team, even with falling down, but that doesnt excuse falling down. In my oppinion gordons defensivel fallouts, his height, and his inability to remain on his feet really pull him down from being a starter.

Both players are good enough to be the third guard option, but i dont think either one is good enough to be a starter. Thabo might make things easier for kirk, but kirk isnt the greatest scorer. Gordon might take up the scoring load, but his defensive inabilities shift the responsibilities to kirk. Take kirk out and put thabo and gordon in and you have a backcourt thats bound to be turnover prone. Throw duhon in the mix with either thabo or gordon and you have an even shorter backcourt, or an offensively challenged backcourt. Yea...its complicated.

I think this team, if seriously wants to make a good run, needs a better guard. Someone like a brandon Roy would have been perfect (who really knew he was gonna be so good), he has the ability score, is mentally strong enough for the pressures of close games, and is tall! But that ship has sailed. A low post presence would definetly be nice, but it seems we are getting closer to having answers in the paint. Sure A. Gray isnt spectacular, but he can be effective if coupled with energy mongruls T. Thomas, or Joakim Noah, those two by the way have the potential to be offensive and defensive nightmares themselves.

I think having another guard, nay...a better guard than what we have now is really what this team needs. The guards we have now, are all suited to be sixth mans, we need a guard who has length, poise, and a good scorer (basically a taller version of gordon would be nice, or a better offensive player than thabo). If boylan wants he can alternate from starting thabo and gordon for the rest of the year, but its gonna get tired quick.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2008 12:44 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Matt has mentioned Maggette
many times to fill the SG role.  If that were somehow to happen, Maggette could fill the big SG role, we could keep BG, get rid of Thabo...and keep the boss happy.

Is Maggette a realistic hope or a pipe dream?

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Magette
I think he was an all star, isnt now, sure he brings some more of that veteran savvy, but i dont think him not kidd are the real answers. Im sort of repeating myself, and i can only say this now looking in hindsight, but Brandan Roy would have been the answer. Even if he wasnt at the level he is at now (i really think the way the bulls orginization is set up, it limits players development. Which is odd since skiles was known for developing players pretty well especially with our "core" players hinrich gordon deng noch and duhon.) but i think drafting him and then drafting noah would have put us much better off. This is of course in hindsight. Also how much would an aging magatte demand?
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know
I spelled his name wrong...sorry
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The real problem is...
If you get rid of Gordon and then Nocioni as seems to be a lot of people's opinion, who hits a three?  The entire league would pack it in against the Bulls and everyone on here would be upset that we didn't have anyone who can shoot.

by cjurmann on Feb 11, 2008 1:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Trade Scenario
Bulls get: Maggette, Kirilenko and Clips #1
Clippers get: Ben Gordon and Ron Artest
Jazz get: Ben Wallace
Kings get: Nocioni

I think this trade makes a lot of sense for each team, and arguably the most sense for the Clippers. The Kings would probably like to include another bad contract (i.e. Abdur-Rahim to Clips for Aaron Williams, Ross and Brevin Knight) for taking on Nocioni's.

Bulls:

  1. It appeases Reinsdorf who wouldn't want to eat Kirilenko's monster contract without something coming off the books (Gordon for Cassell swap).  He'd have to extend Maggette, but at least Nocioni's contract would be gone as well.
  2. Boylan/Brown/Pippen/Coach X could play Maggette at the 2 once Deng gets healthy, enabling Hinrich to match up against players his size.
  3. Split up the PF/C minutes between Kirilenko/Smith/Thomas/Noah.  Classic addition by subtraction.
Jazz - Finally get rid of a player who's been asking for a trade for quite some time (ala Shawn Marion), and they get a "shot blocker" (we know he's not, but they don't) to team up with Boozer and Okur.  Lastly, for a  well-known fiscally conservative franchise, they will be able to save some money by taking on Big "Little" Ben.

Kings - They get rid of a team cancer who's also been asking to leave for months.  While Nocioni isn't full value for Artest, it's likely one of the best offers they'll get.  The Kings could always look to expand the deal to get out from under a bad contract.

Clippers - I think they're making out the best in this scenario.  BG/Artest for Maggette/Cassell/#1 Pick is a huge windfall for them, and Sterling (another notoriously cheap owner) wouldn't even have to take a financial hit if he wanted to let Artest or BG go and take the cap space.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2381~2456~885~434~25~138~497&teams=12~ 23~26~4~12~4~4&te=&cash=

by FPax on Feb 11, 2008 1:25 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Trade Scenario
In response to cjurmann's comment, Maggette is hitting 40% of his 3s this year and 32% for his career.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3336

by FPax on Feb 11, 2008 1:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Those numbers aren't very good at all.
32% career is horrible. By comparison, Duhon is a career 35.5% 3pt shooter. Maggette's only attempted 87 all year.  So he only takes about two a game. So he's good for one 3 pointer every 1.5 games or so.

by cjurmann on Feb 11, 2008 4:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the Kings would rather let Artest walk
they have Garcia and Salmons at the 3, and a couple of overpaid stiffs at the 4 still on the books.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 1:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: the Kings would rather let Artest walk
Fair point, if the Kings would be so opposed to making that deal thinking they couldn't find minutes for Salmons at the 2 (he's a big 2 @ 6'6" 206) splitting time with Martin at the 2 and Garcia/Nocioni at the 3, then take them out...

Bulls: Maggette, Cassel, Kirilenko and Clips #1
Jazz: Wallace
Clipper: Nocioni and Ben Gordon

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2381~2456~885~138~497~434&teams=12~12~ 26~4~4~4&te=&cash=

by FPax on Feb 11, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm
"When they get back it's not a matter of limiting Thabo and Tyrus Thomas, it's about keeping Duhon and Nocioni off the court."

Jazz Game:

Nocioni +19
Thomas -22

by JSlakov on Feb 11, 2008 1:35 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'd like everyone to take notice of this
In his defense, TT played a lot out of position at the 3 in that game.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

defending Tyrus
what is going on here?  Actually, I have seemed to notice that you aren't as sour on Tyrus as you come off...
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Feb 11, 2008 1:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't really ever sour on TT
I just wasn't rabidly foaming at the mouth like some  people were.  And of course, I like to poke the foamers...
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

consider me a
foamer
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Feb 11, 2008 2:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be my point too
He played the 3 almost the entire time he was out there.  Most of the lineups Tyrus played in weren't structured very well.

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Is it possible we can sign Gordon for $6-7 mil
for multiple years?  I do not get a sense there will be too many teams dying to give him $10 for multiple years.

by chgobr on Feb 11, 2008 1:39 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

He's not getting Noc-level money!
More seriously, can anyone point out a guy who actually signed with the same team for less than that team offered at a prior point?

I think in that situation what usually happens is the guy slinks off somewhere else.  That's the sort of thing that makes for a bad work relationship.

by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

For the speculative details,
see my lazy assessment above.
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 2:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Harrington screwed himself out of more money
I think.  Don't remember all the details, so I could be wrong on that.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking
$5-7 mil would be a reasonable price for BG's contributions at this point as I see him as no more than a sixth man, at best. I really don't se him signing a deal like that though so the best thing would prob be to deal him now.

What kind of deal do you see Deng getting? I think around 8-10 per year would be reasonable.

by Bass on Feb 11, 2008 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

if
you think $5-7 is reasonable for Gordon (it looks like you are strictly basing that off of THIS season)...then Kirk SHOULD be making $2-3 this season

You don't pay someone based on a season's worth of work (well, not unless you're the Knicks and Jerome James).

Just like you wouldn't give someone a sky-high contract for one decent/good season, you wouldn't low-ball someone for a down year.

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 3:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

of course
because BG is twice the player that Kirk is and we all know that the first rule of determining value in a blog setting is to tear down the other guy.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

seriously chief
don't post behind me anymore...if all you're going to do is try to talk shit and say negative stuff without actually reading posts then go somewhere else with that

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

grow up
provoking people is dumb too.
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 4:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oy vez
I think the word you were looking for was "dumbier". :D

by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 6:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Kirk
is signed to a contract so there's really no point in arguing what he should be making... ;)

BG on the other hand is a soon-to-be RFA.

I wouldn't pay $9-14 mil for a short SG who doesn't defend, can't make his teammates better and falls on his face or turns the ball over at the end of every quarter. (This is mostly extrapolated from the very entertaining and insightful game threads on this site that I have been enjoying silently for some time)

Low-balling, I think this is a reasonable salary for a sixth man? No?

by Bass on Feb 11, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Better Example
The Bulls and Eddie Robinson(1 postseason = $32M)
Interest Level = Wins - Losses + 2*Tyrus Time + 1.5*(Thabo + Noah Time) - .4*Bricked layups + 3*Red Kerr Candies

by cubbybear on Feb 11, 2008 8:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I still don't see
them taking less money than they rejected earlier in the season.  Hopefully, I'm wrong...but I think their pride would not let them sign for less money than what Hinrich signed for.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps not
but I also don't see any team offering BG more than 10 mil per. And as Pax I would certainly not match such an offer.

But then I was blown away by the Grizzlies move and particularly the Suns. Still waiting to wake up from that one.

by Bass on Feb 11, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

no
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 2:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Jah...
I didn't think so. :(

by Bass on Feb 11, 2008 2:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Or at least in the last two days...
Both the Suns and the Grizzlies trade trump this one.

Not that I would do this if I'm the Clippers or Utah...

by Bass on Feb 12, 2008 12:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A look into the future
Play Thabo at PG

Use Noc, Gordon, and Smith for Childress and Wilcox (or better, if possible)

Switch to the Triangle Offense, hire some combination of Clemons, Pip, and Harp (or someone else who knows the Triangle)

This would give us Thabo, Kirk, Childress, and Duhon in the backcourt and Deng, Noah, TT, Wilcox, and Gray in the frontcourt.  Nine players who can pass, drive to the basket and play multiple positions.  We would finally have a player who could post up, but it wouldn't be our PF, it would be Thabo.  Can you imagine Thabo under the basket being guarded bt Nash, Williams, Paul, etc. A team doesn't necessarily have to use a PF to have a post up game, just ask John Starks and the Knicks.

The fly in the ointment would be that the other GM's in the NBA recognize that Gordon isn't worth that much-the mid-level exception-maybe.  So we might have to add Kirk to the pot.  Maybe a draft choice would be enough.  

by hlac on Feb 11, 2008 10:06 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

the need for a "true" PG
Boylan notices it and takes a not so subtle swipe at Kirk and Du...
"Sometimes we struggle in transition or finding ourselves some easy shots. I can't really comment on what it would be like to have someone of (Paul or Williams') ability, because that's not reality."

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 12, 2008 8:51 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

"true" = "awesome"
The Bulls don't have a top-5 PG, it's true.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2008 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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