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Adventures in small sample size

Blogabull_s_tiny by your friendly BullsBlogger on in News

Can't Sam just be happy with Thabo taking Chris Duhon's place in the rotation?

Of course not, Thabo's play is a step towards pushing Ben Gordon out the door.

Thabo's having a good stretch, and after his dismal first half of the season is at least confirming what should've been happening all season: him as the 3rd guard instead of Duhon. But between this meager success and Gordon's benching and then injury, in Sam's mind this is the logical extension.

Gordon is one year older than Thabo, yet Thabo, who has been until now a dismal offensive player, gets this extended development track while Gordon gets rewarded as the one of the team's best players by being constantly jerked in and out of the lineup and continually called out as the team's weakness. Yes, he's having a poor season, but he normally finishes stronger than he starts and once he does get back from a wrist injury (paging Dr. BaB Commenter for a consult) I expect at least a return to his career norms.

And luckily Boylan has no real authority, so coach Wallace won't allow the stance of injured players not be given their jobs back. Fair enough in principle, Boylan, but lets just say better players? This road trip has given the chance for some guys to perform well, but they're a better team with Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng. Sure it's fun in stretches to watch the lesser talented scrap towards competition each game, but not as the franchise direction.

When they get back it's not a matter of limiting Thabo and Tyrus Thomas, it's about keeping Duhon and Nocioni off the court. That's the benefit of depth, not to supplant the best players. Fixing Paxson's phone to get him to clean out the frontcourt glut would help too.

I'd even swallow my bile and accept Gordon coming off the bench if Thabo starts. But having Gordon deemed expendable? What exactly do the Bulls plan to do without him? Chris Duhon as the 3rd guard again? I can't hold that sickening reaction down.

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my favorite part
Gordon rejected a $50 million contract extension in October. If the Bulls seem set at shooting guard and will go with Hinrich and Sefolosha or even Duhon for a time, can they afford that kind of contract for a sixth man? Should they? Especially when Sefolosha seems deserving of the minutes now?

Huh??  Seem set at shooting guard?  On the road trip it's obvious that Sam had nothing better to do (he watched people ice skate?) so he just dreamt up insane things to say.

Sam, like too many people here, often go too crazy when a person has one or two good games.  The BaB'ers were ready to flip when Viktor scored a few points last week.

Yeah Thabo has been playing well, but how does that make BG expendable?  Is there some master plan for Griffin in place that I don't know about??

I can live with the idea of him coming off the bench, but to just deem him as no longer needed and suggesting that Duhon can fill that role is completely dumb.

Just last week in his mailbag, he said this:

Yes, Ben is putting it up, but he's hardly alone of late. But no one on the team can score like he can.

Sam is worse than Paxson at canceling out his own words and ideas.  I mark up this article as complete hogwash and as him having nothing better to do.  I doubt he believes it himself.

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 8:56 AM CST   0 recs

Ben Gordan
I think BG is a great player, he's just havin one of those years. BG always comes through in the end, especially in big games.  Sefolosha is doing a great job filling in (duhon as well) but can they carry a team like BG?

by Hendo g on Feb 11, 2008 2:08 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I don't think Gordon carries the team,
so much as comes to the rescue.

He has "microwave" written all over him.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 2:11 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

ever bother investigating that?
or is anecdotal sixth man glory enough for some rather pea-brained remarks?
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 2:25 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

if BG
hasn't come to the rescue, then who has??

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 2:48 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Read it again Scottie.
alec is saying that BG does not carry this team . It's more like he has come to their rescue.
Never went to church camp but I did go to Girl Scout camp. If you ever need help making a campfire I'm your girl. :P

by sue369 on Feb 11, 2008 3:05 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Now comes the tricky part
Pax did a good job of assembling a young team of desirable parts, and they've been fun to watch.  Now how do you pay and play them all?  I've got no issue with BG, Sef and Lu sharing the 2-3 minutes, especially if Kirk's improvement from playing PG on both ends continues.  Let me be the first (I think) to bow to your Noc stance; I was wrong, you were right.  We'd be in better shape if he just went poof.  Same for BW and Du.  God, wouldn't it be a great summer if we ended the year with Kirk, Sef, BG, Lu, Ty1, TT and Noah all signed, playing and still the "best up and coming"?  Damn that 2006 offseason!

by California Al on Feb 11, 2008 8:58 AM CST   0 recs

Thabo is the anti-Gordon
Thabo is a great defensive player and a mediocre offensive player so far while Gordon is a mediocre defensive player and a great shooter.  Unfortunately, Gordon has been too one dimensional this season.  Gordon isn't a great playmaker and he has trouble with double teams...not good when we give him the ball and ask him to create and watch him struggle when pressured.  Thabo may or may not be the answer...but so far he's outperformed Gordon.  Gordon has been the Bulls' 2nd best player before this season so I know he's valuable...but it would be interesting to see how Paxson signs everyone when Gordon and Deng are asking for a lot of money.  Do we sign these "core players" and become stuck with the team we have?  It hasn't gotten us anywhere this season.  It would be nice to trade away our expendable players (Nocioni, Wallace, Smith, etc.) but until that happens...salaries seem pretty important for this franchise.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 9:16 AM CST   0 recs

It all comes down to money
If BG can be happy in Chicago for $8-10 mil/year, I think a deal gets done.  If he wants more, I don't see him in Chicago.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:23 AM CST   0 recs

well they hopefully can do a sign/trade
for another guard who can score then. Like Scottie says above, Sam claims they're 'set' at SG, which I completely disagree with

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:29 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'd agree they are set
at 1-10, they just need to reorder the rotation and start playing together the right way.  The talent is there, it just needs to develop and mesh.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:35 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

set 1-10 without Gordon?
that's the worst backcourt in the league, and a still-young frontcourt (if they're truly letting it ride with developing and/or meshing).

This is another topic for another day, but a new competent coach will help, but they need a talent upgrade as well to get to championship level. Heck, a truly talented team shouldn't need a great coach, or have to worry about contract jitters and other such nonsense.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:39 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

1-10
including Gordon, today, right now.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:40 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

who's going to to give BG more than that
and where is he a fit?  Teams like Phoenix or GS are the only ones that come to mind where defense isn't particularly important and where BG's offensive talents would be enhanced.  Maybe Portland, where Roy could be the on the ball guard.  Do you see any of them making a deal to get BG and pay him $12 mil/year?  Does BG start over Monta Ellis?  Does he start next to Nash for the smallest backcourt in the league?
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:54 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

well then qualifying offer works for both sides
Tough break for Paxson knowing that one of his most talented players is so unwanted around the league. Shows what his draft record has been.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:58 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

You can say that about 95% of the league
about guys who think they are worth $12+/year.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:00 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Id hate to lose BG for nothing
Especially, when I almost choked when the Bulls drafted him instead of Andre Iguodala and Deng.  BG's jumper grew on me and this team wouldnt have gone anywhere last year without it...
"We are who you thought we were"

by Thirdrock on Feb 11, 2008 11:58 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

We'd have to get a
guard in return, for sure.  But after reading Paxson's comments on Gordon's injury, and then hearing Paxson on The Score this past weekend, I came away thinking that Gordon was the next to go.

Gordon's offense is so important for this team, but his defense has killed us.  In the Pistons series, Billups took advantage of him every time, and it left Rip with a mismatch on Kirk.  Now in these past two months, I've seen Thabo hold Baron Davis to 8/24 shooting and outplay Rip and Wade, and it's made me think he's the guy to play the bulk of the SG minutes.  Notice how Hinrich's play has improved now that he doesn't have to guard the opponent's best player every game.

I'm with Smith on this one.  Gordon said he didn't regret rejecting the $50 million for five years, meaning it'll take more than that to keep him.  For a team strapped for cash already, it doesn't make sense to me to give $10+ million a year to a role player.

by YaoPau on Feb 11, 2008 9:55 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

To be fair
Deng didn't exactly go gangbusters on Tayshaun Prince.

by jpx7 on Feb 12, 2008 5:45 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Thabo: so hot right now
It's always easy to jump on Sam who always seems to struggle with balancing his own conjecture with fact.  But if you take him for what he is -- a Bulls fan who happens to write about the team for a living and often needs to make shit up to fill word counts  -- he can be so entertaining.  I bet 30% of what gets posted on this blog is reaction to something dumb (or at least peculiar) that Sam has written.  I'll leave it to KC and Hanley to do game recaps and to tell me when the team gets stuck on the runway because of a storm or something.

Back to the hot Thabo action.  I thought this quote from Kirk was important:

I find playing with Thabo I play against my own position more....  You look at scoring and being aggressive a lot differently.

It is a lot easier on me physically and easier for me to play against guys equal at my position. It's been a while since I've done it. Playing guys at my position, I can get my shot off so much easier at all times.


The team has already invested a lot in Kirk and it appears that the organization is committed to him (he's NEVER gotten jerked out of the starting line-up because of a bad stretch).  Though that sentiment in itself is not enough to make a roster decision, it is a meaningful endorsement for Thabo.

Sam should have left it at that, but if he had, this thread wouldn't exist and we would have nothing to keep us occupied on a Monday morning.

by paxson43 on Feb 11, 2008 9:37 AM CST   0 recs

it's not just Sam
there's a vocal minority around here thinking Thabo is the future at SG, in between giving their medical opinions on Gordon's wrist.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:41 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

heh
It's probably too early to say whether Thabo should be the future at SG...but you act as if he's definitely not the future.  The guy can still improve, you know...just like Thomas and Noah.  Or is Thomas and Noah not really future starting caliber players?  With that said, do you feel Gordon is the future at SG?

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 9:49 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think Thabo
may be the worst starting SG in the league. Far better than Duhon, but still.

Like I said, just because Thabo's a 2nd year player people forget that he came sold as a finished overseas product. He's roughly a year older than Noah and 2.5 years older than Thomas. Plus Noah (and Thomas for that matter) have produced far more.

I just don't get whey Ben Gordon's pigeonholed as a bench 'sparkplug' (or whatever), yet Thabo doesn't get the same treatment as what he likely is: a role player to come in and defend wings. In fact, I love that role for him since as a backup 3 (as well as 2) he can take yet another of Nocioni's roles.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:55 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

worst SG in the league?
So I guess Ben Wallace in his prime in Detroit was the worst center in the league?  His offense is mediocre but isn't THAT bad.  He actually goes for the high percentage shot and drives to the basket more than any of our other guards except Duhon.  Thabo isn't DPOY caliber like Wallace has but I think he's close to being an elite wing defender...and his offense isn't as bad as Wallace.  Remember how terrible offensively Ron Artest looked when he played for the Bulls?  Ron eventually became an all-star.  Yea Thabo was supposed to be pretty polished when he came here...but there is no substitute for NBA experience.  Thabo's terrible start to the season and big improvement later on seems to show that.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:01 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

A defensive center is more valuable
than a defensive wing.

At age 23 Artest had a PER over 17. And I'd guess about 50 pounds too.

And regardless, this team needs offense. Having one of the worst starting SGs in the league...

(I suppose Rashad McCants is worse. Larry Hughes too. By next year, Cuttino Mobley, Mo Petersen? Willie Green starts for some reason. Whoever starts for Utah or Orlando)

...is fine if you can make it up elsewhere.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:14 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

It's true that
This team needs offense...but I think a big part of why they've been competitive with all the main scorers out is this team is finally able to get stops.  Before, it would seem like we hardly made a run to get back into the game once the other team pulls away because we couldn't get stops.  Recently, we've become a team that keeps closing the gap when the other team makes a run because of our defense.  Getting the loose balls, rebounding, steals, taking the higher percentage shot instead of taking contested jumpers...all have played a role to why we haven't been blown out with all our scorers out.

Also, Thabo's PER is pretty pitiful right now...but I don't think we should be judging players solely by PER.  It's not really fair to compare Ron Artest's production in his 4th season in the league while averaging 30 minutes a game in each of his 4 seasons to a guy not even in his 2nd year in the NBA and couldn't get off the bench until recently.  I'm not saying Thabo will ever be as good as Ron..but I think that type of player is his ceiling.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:33 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

age matters
I don't remember Artest at age 23 anyway, I was using PER because you remarked how bad he was offensively.

Why is it your goal to see a team that 'closes gaps' and 'doesn't get blown out'? You're listing these as Thabo's great contributions.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:38 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

If age matters
Is LeBron James better than Michael Jordan?  I'd rather hold off on jumping to conclusions until players enter their prime...and Thabo isn't there yet.  I still believe NBA experience is a lot more valuable than whatever league he played for before he got here.  My goal isn't to close gaps...I was just using that as an example of the importance of defense.  We obviously need both.  Gordon and Thabo only provide one right now.  We haven't been able to win thus far with either one...but one of them wants a big contract.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:47 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

About Ron Artest
I was saying he was a bad offensive player when he played for the Bulls his first two years...and he was.  He was a 40% Field goal shooter and 30% from three point range and about as good of a free throw shooter as Thabo has shown recently.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 11:04 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Filling the offensive void
To your point about finding offense to replace BG, presumably liberating Hinrich from his role as Ace Wing Defender would allow him to do more PG things.  Thabo may not have to match Gordon's offensive output if Hinrich is able to do a better job distributing the ball and getting the rest of the team easy buckets.  

by paxson43 on Feb 11, 2008 10:51 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

i concur...
losing gordon means you lose his 15-20 shot attempts per game, but those shot attempts do not magically disappear, they are dispersed to other team members.  with gordon shooting 42% and the bulls team shooting 42%, one could say that the bulls don't even miss a beat on offense...  on top of that, if you replace gordon in the starting lineup with a SG that can rebound, dribble and pass better than gordon (and turn the ball over less), most would argue that you have a net improvement.

it's fun having a 6'-0" SG who can light it up 1 out of every 2-3 games, but those games where he can't light it up?... or those games he decides that he's a point guard with time running off the clock?... those are the games we lose.  if we lose a game where gordon scores 35 points, it's still a loss.  don't get me wrong, i've been to games where he's on fire, and he's exciting as hell... but i've been to others where he's a non-factor from the start.  gordon is not the long term solution at SG for any team in the NBA, let alone the Bulls.  i'm not 100% convinced that sefalosha is either, but he looks to have the right mix of height, length, dribbling and suspect shooting skills to peak optimism...

by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 7:32 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

You're going to say that
after seeing Thabo starting only about 20 games and seemingly getting better progressively over that stretch?  I wouldn't run the offense through Thabo yet, but he definitely looks to me like somebody who could average 18/6/4 while playing above average defense.  And his jumpshot isn't as bad as it was made out to be.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:10 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I've been thinking along the same lines.
I'm fine with Thabo starting because I believe Thabo plays better starting, not because Gordon is better coming off the bench.  And because it makes it easier for Thabo to backup Deng making Nocioni completely expendable.  Hinrich, Gordon, and Thabo can all play 32+ min/g that way.

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 10:10 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hinrich, Sefolosha, and BG
can get 32min/g without any playing at SF.  Noc is a fine back up for Deng and Deng needs to be limited to 32 min/g as well before his achilles gets anymore like the rubber band in my wife's vacuum cleaner.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:16 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'll counter your point
Noc sucks and his contract is crippling everything :)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:41 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Your Noc
sucks stuff is overboard,  he is still a 37% shooter from the three point line and grabbing rebounds.  He obviously needs a better shot selection and doesn't need to be a focal point (which will come with a solid new coach) and his contract is prohibitive this year; but he is definitely a backup caliber small forward in the league.

by Kemp on Feb 11, 2008 1:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

i'll counter with an older regurgitated posting...
noc vs. deng - 3pt shot
over the past 4 years, the comparison of 3pt attempts per game/ 3pt fg%:

noc:
2004 - 1.2/ 29%
2005 - 2.9/ 39%
2006 - 3.9/ 38%
2007 - 5.0/ 37%

deng:
2004 - 1.9/ 26%
2005 - 1.0/ 26%
2006 - 0.0/ 14%
2007 - 0.3/ 40%

deng is always commended for his good fg%, but he's a small forward that rarely steps outside the 3pt line.  in the past 3 years, you would think that he would have expanded his range to make himself more valuable by being able to spread the defenses.  it's actually the opposite in that it seems he has regressed.  he is an above average slasher and jump shooter, but until he can step out beyong the 3pt line, his true value as a small forward (or even a slow shooting guard matt) will never be realized on a teamwide level.

am i saying that noc is better than deng?  no, they are 2 different players that offer different skill sets at the 3.  but i hardly think noc is deserving of the perpetual thrashing he tends to receive here.  and if the deng supporters feel that noc is expendable, how about hearing an analysis on why deng can't shoot a three?  

i would still like to see deng put on 25 lbs and become a back to the basket/ slashing power forward....

by leeac on Feb 11, 2008 7:36 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Skiles told him to
stop shooting 3s so he did.  He worked on shooting 3s this summer, and the ones he took this season went in just fine.

Deng doesn't get thrashed because he's the best player on the team, he's the only guy on the roster that can reliably make a layup, and unlike Noc he actually bothers to guard his man.  

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 9:40 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

true...
"I love that role for him since as a backup 3 (as well as 2) he can take yet another of Nocioni's roles"

although I would add that he could also find minutes as a PG (paired with Gordon). Why would Hinrich be the only one benefitting from Thabo playing alongside him for stretches ? ;-)

Finally, I think Thabo (while not the best offensive player in the NBA by far) is a little bit undervalued at that. He can be very good on offense if you don't consider offense as only shooting ability.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I've been one of Thabo's strongest
supporters even when he couldn't make a bad shot and gave the ball to the other team all the time, but you have to be realistic.  Thabo's not a kid anymore.  He'll learn to turn it over less and shoot better, but he's not going to be better than a 4th option on offense on a good team.  Paxson thought his upside was Doug Christie, which seems fair.

Thabo should be part of the future, but that doesn't mean fans should be in hurry to throw away the best offensive player on the team.  

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 10:04 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think a big key is
Thabo isn't asking for over 10 million a year to keep him.  Sure, Ben Gordon is valuable to the team.  Ben Gordon earlier in the season even thinks he was the best player on the team and seems to want a contract that reflects that.  Paxson signed Hinrich for too much and Nocioni for too much...is he going to make the same mistake with Gordon?  I would love to keep Gordon, but I don't want him ending up being another contract we hope to get rid of.

by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 10:08 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

sbulls
well said. I'm going to try and go by your philosophy of not continually repeating oneself and stick with this response.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:58 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

At first, I assumed the "small"
in the "small sample size" of your title was going to be a reference to Ben Gordon' stature.  BG's personal small sample size creates a bigger team liability than his career 18 pts/game can hope to mask. Gordon's defensive deficiencies also bear directly on Hinrich's productivity, both offensive and defensively.  

Gordon's passport out of town was stamped the minute he was shifted back to 6th man.  It was either accept the huge pay cut that goes with being a bench player, or salvage some trade value for the guy and move him before the deadline.  

Sam's article makes perfect sense.  Gordon, along with Ben Wallace, are the prime guys to be moved.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 9:43 AM CST   0 recs

oh, you
I thought shifting to the bench was just a formality, that he'd get big minutes no matter what? Ginobili's payed pretty well.

(That's what I heard, anyway.)

Of course it could be an indication that he'll likely be gone, although hopefully it was just Boylan 'trying something' and Pax giving him that one bone.

I know it's conventional wisdom that whatever Gordon does is negated by being short. But it's, like, wrong. And Hinrich should know that it only helps his value that he can guard biger guards to mask what he doesn't do on offense.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 9:51 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

All signs point to Gordon being gone.
His 'peeps' are even leaking stories about taking the one year qualifying offer.  Sure, everyone likes his instant offense, but my reading is that management would be quite happy to see about 10 or 12 points of instant offense out of him.  

Gordon's sloppy ball domination, bad offensive judgment, and the fact that he's nothing more than a defensive chew-toy for the rest of the league's shooting guards...these all make him either expendable, or a nice, small-minute, instant-offense-as-needed role player off the bench.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:05 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

It's a valid question
What is worth more?

A better then average scoring SG who is a defensive liability...

or an average scoring SG who provides stellar defense and even is a plus on the boards.

If Thabo is consistently good for at least 20 points a game, I'd say losing BG and using his cap space for other needed priorities would end up being most beneficial in the long term.

by RogersPark Kris on Feb 11, 2008 10:13 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

20 ppg?
I'll limit it to guards/wings:

James, Bryant, Iverson, Anthony, Wade, Jefferson, Redd, Maggette, Davis, Butler, Johnson, Carter, Jackson, Paul, Howard, Richardson, Pierce, Crawford(!)

I don't see Thabo joining that group.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2008 10:20 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Speaking of that group
You've long been a proponent of going after Maggette...which would solve all our SG ills.  Nobody writes about it...is it even on the 'possible' radar?
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:29 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Wouldn't you rather have any of those guys
before BG, too?  They are all better than he is too.
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:34 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

That is a bit divisive
if you get into the 18-19 point a game area, the names look a lot less pleasing, and if we are talking about Gordon it should be 17-21 not 20-31.

by Kemp on Feb 11, 2008 1:10 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Good grief
Gordon hardly ever guards shooting guards.  He almost always takes the point guard.  And you obviously have no context to place Gordon in.  Would you say the same things about Ray Allen?  They're actually pretty similar players.  But, Ray's never been put in the lousy situations Gordon has been put in.

by Scotter on Feb 11, 2008 10:16 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Allen played in Milwaukee right
That's a pretty lousy situation... ;-)
Goodbye Viktor, and Godspeed.

by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

it wasn't
when he was playing there.  Things went down hill after he was traded.

by KT on Feb 11, 2008 10:51 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Gordon seldom plays defense
against sg's, true, but his inept defense  forces Hinrich to play out of position on defense, where he's personally less effective though still more effective than BG, but which then reduces Hinrich's effectiveness on offense.

BG is just a first-falling domino no matter where you try to hide him.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 10:27 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

you're inept
Our friend, plus-minus rating, says the opposite. Until this craptacular season, Hinrich and Gordon were the best backcourt, Gordon was 1a to Deng's 1, and Gordon was clutchy clutchmeister at the end of games. Does that make him the last domino?
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 11:53 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'd be happy to have BG
fill a Vinnie Johnson role for the Bulls.  I just don't think it's in the cards.  He needs to see what he's worth on the open market first...find out he's not worth nearly what he thinks he is...then settle into that role for some team...probably not the Bulls, because he'll hate them by them for either 1) ruining his value, or 2) showing him what he's really worth.  

That, in one run-on sentence, is the whole Ben Gordon career arc.  I've mentioned this a number of times and you've shot it down every time...I guess I just can't learn.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:08 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Lazy...you're right,
I could have worked harder to break it up into a couple sentences.  

And speculative...well, right again.

"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

hardy-har
Vinnie Johnson came off the bench! Gordon has done that!
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 12:34 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

See My Post Above
Our friend, Kirk Hinrich, pretty much explicitly lays it out there in a direct freaking quote.

Now personally, I think Hinrich saying things that way is a sort of douchebag thing to do. He's throwing Gordon (and Duhon's) size out there as a reason for his poor play even though it was obviously no different than the last three years he was playing next to those guys.

He didn't have problems now, so to blame his difficult defensive assignments now is a load of crap.

But at the end of the day, there's also some truth to it.  Not the right thing for Kirk to think or say, but there's truth in it.  Especially if you've got the guy who has to play with him openly lobbying about it.

So what do you do?  Trade Kirk?  Well, if you still have the problem.  The fact is Kirk is one of the better fits for Gordon league-wide.  So if he's throwing his hands up and saying he'd rather play with Thabo (whether justified or not for him to be doing it), you've got a pretty big problem.

by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

That's dumb too.
I think you meant "truthiness." Is innocuous quote driven speculation part of your magic metric?
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 12:33 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

That
was funny.
"No, no. Stop talking to me. Someone might notice," Paxson squeaked.

by alec on Feb 11, 2008 12:38 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I couldn't with alec agree more
Hopefully that's not one of the signs of the apocalypse.  ;-)

I love his scoring on this team, but that speaks more to the team deficiencies than Gordon's value.  On a good team, he is a killer 6th man - he just doesn't do other things well enough to start (IMO).

With the vast talent, quickness, and athletic ability he possesses, one would think he would be a much better defender than he is.  Not that I expect All-Defensive team from him, but he should not lose his man as often as he does.

I was certainly not pleased with him going to the bench for Duhon (that was not and upgrade).  However, if this Thabo keeps playing, if he "get's it", then I'm all for Gordon coming off the bench and relegating Duhon to the 4th guard/backup PG (aka: "Kirk's in foul trouble - again").

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 12:14 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

How much is a non all star worth?
BG is asking for all star type money ( 10 - 13 per).

I think that's what this will all come down to anyways.

by RogersPark Kris on Feb 11, 2008 12:18 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

That's a great question.
Especially considering the Bulls haven't had an All-Star in 10 years.  Seems to me like they shouldn't be paying anyone on the roster that kind of money.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Feb 11, 2008 12:29 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think Matt already said it
Ginobili is a killer sixth man too. Imagine what Gilbert Arenas could do off the bench!
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 11, 2008 12:28 PM CST</