Adventures in small sample size
Can't Sam just be happy with Thabo taking Chris Duhon's place in the rotation?
Of course not, Thabo's play is a step towards pushing Ben Gordon out the door.
Thabo's having a good stretch, and after his dismal first half of the season is at least confirming what should've been happening all season: him as the 3rd guard instead of Duhon. But between this meager success and Gordon's benching and then injury, in Sam's mind this is the logical extension.
Gordon is one year older than Thabo, yet Thabo, who has been until now a dismal offensive player, gets this extended development track while Gordon gets rewarded as the one of the team's best players by being constantly jerked in and out of the lineup and continually called out as the team's weakness. Yes, he's having a poor season, but he normally finishes stronger than he starts and once he does get back from a wrist injury (paging Dr. BaB Commenter for a consult) I expect at least a return to his career norms.
And luckily Boylan has no real authority, so coach Wallace won't allow the stance of injured players not be given their jobs back. Fair enough in principle, Boylan, but lets just say better players? This road trip has given the chance for some guys to perform well, but they're a better team with Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng. Sure it's fun in stretches to watch the lesser talented scrap towards competition each game, but not as the franchise direction.
When they get back it's not a matter of limiting Thabo and Tyrus Thomas, it's about keeping Duhon and Nocioni off the court. That's the benefit of depth, not to supplant the best players. Fixing Paxson's phone to get him to clean out the frontcourt glut would help too.
I'd even swallow my bile and accept Gordon coming off the bench if Thabo starts. But having Gordon deemed expendable? What exactly do the Bulls plan to do without him? Chris Duhon as the 3rd guard again? I can't hold that sickening reaction down.
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my favorite part
Huh?? Seem set at shooting guard? On the road trip it's obvious that Sam had nothing better to do (he watched people ice skate?) so he just dreamt up insane things to say.
Sam, like too many people here, often go too crazy when a person has one or two good games. The BaB'ers were ready to flip when Viktor scored a few points last week.
Yeah Thabo has been playing well, but how does that make BG expendable? Is there some master plan for Griffin in place that I don't know about??
I can live with the idea of him coming off the bench, but to just deem him as no longer needed and suggesting that Duhon can fill that role is completely dumb.
Just last week in his mailbag, he said this:
Sam is worse than Paxson at canceling out his own words and ideas. I mark up this article as complete hogwash and as him having nothing better to do. I doubt he believes it himself.
by ScottieCartwright on Feb 11, 2008 8:56 AM CST 0 recs
Ben Gordan
by Hendo g on
Feb 11, 2008 2:08 PM CST
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I don't think Gordon carries the team,
He has "microwave" written all over him.
by alec on
Feb 11, 2008 2:11 PM CST
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ever bother investigating that?
by hscs on
Feb 11, 2008 2:25 PM CST
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if BG
by ScottieCartwright on
Feb 11, 2008 2:48 PM CST
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Read it again Scottie.
by sue369 on
Feb 11, 2008 3:05 PM CST
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Now comes the tricky part
by California Al on Feb 11, 2008 8:58 AM CST 0 recs
Thabo is the anti-Gordon
by Parrotman on Feb 11, 2008 9:16 AM CST 0 recs
It all comes down to money
by bullshooter on Feb 11, 2008 9:23 AM CST 0 recs
well they hopefully can do a sign/trade
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 9:29 AM CST
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I'd agree they are set
by bullshooter on
Feb 11, 2008 9:35 AM CST
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set 1-10 without Gordon?
This is another topic for another day, but a new competent coach will help, but they need a talent upgrade as well to get to championship level. Heck, a truly talented team shouldn't need a great coach, or have to worry about contract jitters and other such nonsense.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 9:39 AM CST
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1-10
by bullshooter on
Feb 11, 2008 9:40 AM CST
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who's going to to give BG more than that
by bullshooter on
Feb 11, 2008 9:54 AM CST
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well then qualifying offer works for both sides
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 9:58 AM CST
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You can say that about 95% of the league
by bullshooter on
Feb 11, 2008 10:00 AM CST
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Id hate to lose BG for nothing
by Thirdrock on
Feb 11, 2008 11:58 AM CST
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We'd have to get a
Gordon's offense is so important for this team, but his defense has killed us. In the Pistons series, Billups took advantage of him every time, and it left Rip with a mismatch on Kirk. Now in these past two months, I've seen Thabo hold Baron Davis to 8/24 shooting and outplay Rip and Wade, and it's made me think he's the guy to play the bulk of the SG minutes. Notice how Hinrich's play has improved now that he doesn't have to guard the opponent's best player every game.
I'm with Smith on this one. Gordon said he didn't regret rejecting the $50 million for five years, meaning it'll take more than that to keep him. For a team strapped for cash already, it doesn't make sense to me to give $10+ million a year to a role player.
by YaoPau on
Feb 11, 2008 9:55 AM CST
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To be fair
by jpx7 on
Feb 12, 2008 5:45 AM CST
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Thabo: so hot right now
Back to the hot Thabo action. I thought this quote from Kirk was important:
It is a lot easier on me physically and easier for me to play against guys equal at my position. It's been a while since I've done it. Playing guys at my position, I can get my shot off so much easier at all times.
The team has already invested a lot in Kirk and it appears that the organization is committed to him (he's NEVER gotten jerked out of the starting line-up because of a bad stretch). Though that sentiment in itself is not enough to make a roster decision, it is a meaningful endorsement for Thabo.
Sam should have left it at that, but if he had, this thread wouldn't exist and we would have nothing to keep us occupied on a Monday morning.
by paxson43 on Feb 11, 2008 9:37 AM CST 0 recs
it's not just Sam
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 9:41 AM CST
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heh
by Parrotman on
Feb 11, 2008 9:49 AM CST
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I think Thabo
Like I said, just because Thabo's a 2nd year player people forget that he came sold as a finished overseas product. He's roughly a year older than Noah and 2.5 years older than Thomas. Plus Noah (and Thomas for that matter) have produced far more.
I just don't get whey Ben Gordon's pigeonholed as a bench 'sparkplug' (or whatever), yet Thabo doesn't get the same treatment as what he likely is: a role player to come in and defend wings. In fact, I love that role for him since as a backup 3 (as well as 2) he can take yet another of Nocioni's roles.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 9:55 AM CST
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worst SG in the league?
by Parrotman on
Feb 11, 2008 10:01 AM CST
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A defensive center is more valuable
At age 23 Artest had a PER over 17. And I'd guess about 50 pounds too.
And regardless, this team needs offense. Having one of the worst starting SGs in the league...
(I suppose Rashad McCants is worse. Larry Hughes too. By next year, Cuttino Mobley, Mo Petersen? Willie Green starts for some reason. Whoever starts for Utah or Orlando)
...is fine if you can make it up elsewhere.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 10:14 AM CST
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It's true that
Also, Thabo's PER is pretty pitiful right now...but I don't think we should be judging players solely by PER. It's not really fair to compare Ron Artest's production in his 4th season in the league while averaging 30 minutes a game in each of his 4 seasons to a guy not even in his 2nd year in the NBA and couldn't get off the bench until recently. I'm not saying Thabo will ever be as good as Ron..but I think that type of player is his ceiling.
by Parrotman on
Feb 11, 2008 10:33 AM CST
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age matters
Why is it your goal to see a team that 'closes gaps' and 'doesn't get blown out'? You're listing these as Thabo's great contributions.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 10:38 AM CST
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If age matters
by Parrotman on
Feb 11, 2008 10:47 AM CST
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About Ron Artest
by Parrotman on
Feb 11, 2008 11:04 AM CST
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Filling the offensive void
by paxson43 on
Feb 11, 2008 10:51 AM CST
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i concur...
it's fun having a 6'-0" SG who can light it up 1 out of every 2-3 games, but those games where he can't light it up?... or those games he decides that he's a point guard with time running off the clock?... those are the games we lose. if we lose a game where gordon scores 35 points, it's still a loss. don't get me wrong, i've been to games where he's on fire, and he's exciting as hell... but i've been to others where he's a non-factor from the start. gordon is not the long term solution at SG for any team in the NBA, let alone the Bulls. i'm not 100% convinced that sefalosha is either, but he looks to have the right mix of height, length, dribbling and suspect shooting skills to peak optimism...
by leeac on
Feb 11, 2008 7:32 PM CST
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You're going to say that
by bullshooter on
Feb 11, 2008 10:10 AM CST
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I've been thinking along the same lines.
by Scotter on
Feb 11, 2008 10:10 AM CST
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Hinrich, Sefolosha, and BG
by bullshooter on
Feb 11, 2008 10:16 AM CST
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I'll counter your point
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 10:41 AM CST
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Your Noc
by Kemp on
Feb 11, 2008 1:03 PM CST
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i'll counter with an older regurgitated posting...
over the past 4 years, the comparison of 3pt attempts per game/ 3pt fg%:
noc:
2004 - 1.2/ 29%
2005 - 2.9/ 39%
2006 - 3.9/ 38%
2007 - 5.0/ 37%
deng:
2004 - 1.9/ 26%
2005 - 1.0/ 26%
2006 - 0.0/ 14%
2007 - 0.3/ 40%
deng is always commended for his good fg%, but he's a small forward that rarely steps outside the 3pt line. in the past 3 years, you would think that he would have expanded his range to make himself more valuable by being able to spread the defenses. it's actually the opposite in that it seems he has regressed. he is an above average slasher and jump shooter, but until he can step out beyong the 3pt line, his true value as a small forward (or even a slow shooting guard matt) will never be realized on a teamwide level.
am i saying that noc is better than deng? no, they are 2 different players that offer different skill sets at the 3. but i hardly think noc is deserving of the perpetual thrashing he tends to receive here. and if the deng supporters feel that noc is expendable, how about hearing an analysis on why deng can't shoot a three?
i would still like to see deng put on 25 lbs and become a back to the basket/ slashing power forward....
by leeac on
Feb 11, 2008 7:36 PM CST
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Skiles told him to
Deng doesn't get thrashed because he's the best player on the team, he's the only guy on the roster that can reliably make a layup, and unlike Noc he actually bothers to guard his man.
by Scotter on
Feb 11, 2008 9:40 PM CST
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true...
although I would add that he could also find minutes as a PG (paired with Gordon). Why would Hinrich be the only one benefitting from Thabo playing alongside him for stretches ? ;-)
Finally, I think Thabo (while not the best offensive player in the NBA by far) is a little bit undervalued at that. He can be very good on offense if you don't consider offense as only shooting ability.
by Diabolo on
Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM CST
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I've been one of Thabo's strongest
Thabo should be part of the future, but that doesn't mean fans should be in hurry to throw away the best offensive player on the team.
by Scotter on
Feb 11, 2008 10:04 AM CST
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I think a big key is
by Parrotman on
Feb 11, 2008 10:08 AM CST
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sbulls
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 10:58 AM CST
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At first, I assumed the "small"
Gordon's passport out of town was stamped the minute he was shifted back to 6th man. It was either accept the huge pay cut that goes with being a bench player, or salvage some trade value for the guy and move him before the deadline.
Sam's article makes perfect sense. Gordon, along with Ben Wallace, are the prime guys to be moved.
by alec on Feb 11, 2008 9:43 AM CST 0 recs
oh, you
(That's what I heard, anyway.)
Of course it could be an indication that he'll likely be gone, although hopefully it was just Boylan 'trying something' and Pax giving him that one bone.
I know it's conventional wisdom that whatever Gordon does is negated by being short. But it's, like, wrong. And Hinrich should know that it only helps his value that he can guard biger guards to mask what he doesn't do on offense.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 9:51 AM CST
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All signs point to Gordon being gone.
Gordon's sloppy ball domination, bad offensive judgment, and the fact that he's nothing more than a defensive chew-toy for the rest of the league's shooting guards...these all make him either expendable, or a nice, small-minute, instant-offense-as-needed role player off the bench.
by alec on
Feb 11, 2008 10:05 AM CST
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It's a valid question
A better then average scoring SG who is a defensive liability...
or an average scoring SG who provides stellar defense and even is a plus on the boards.
If Thabo is consistently good for at least 20 points a game, I'd say losing BG and using his cap space for other needed priorities would end up being most beneficial in the long term.
by RogersPark Kris on
Feb 11, 2008 10:13 AM CST
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20 ppg?
James, Bryant, Iverson, Anthony, Wade, Jefferson, Redd, Maggette, Davis, Butler, Johnson, Carter, Jackson, Paul, Howard, Richardson, Pierce, Crawford(!)
I don't see Thabo joining that group.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Feb 11, 2008 10:20 AM CST
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Speaking of that group
by alec on
Feb 11, 2008 10:29 AM CST
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Wouldn't you rather have any of those guys
by bullshooter on
Feb 11, 2008 10:34 AM CST
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That is a bit divisive
by Kemp on
Feb 11, 2008 1:10 PM CST
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Good grief
by Scotter on
Feb 11, 2008 10:16 AM CST
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Allen played in Milwaukee right
by bullshooter on
Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM CST
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it wasn't
by KT on
Feb 11, 2008 10:51 AM CST
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Gordon seldom plays defense
BG is just a first-falling domino no matter where you try to hide him.
by alec on
Feb 11, 2008 10:27 AM CST
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you're inept
by hscs on
Feb 11, 2008 11:53 AM CST
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I'd be happy to have BG
That, in one run-on sentence, is the whole Ben Gordon career arc. I've mentioned this a number of times and you've shot it down every time...I guess I just can't learn.
by alec on
Feb 11, 2008 12:08 PM CST
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it's a lazy assessment, and highly speculative
by hscs on
Feb 11, 2008 12:12 PM CST
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Lazy...you're right,
And speculative...well, right again.
by alec on
Feb 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST
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hardy-har
by hscs on
Feb 11, 2008 12:34 PM CST
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See My Post Above
Now personally, I think Hinrich saying things that way is a sort of douchebag thing to do. He's throwing Gordon (and Duhon's) size out there as a reason for his poor play even though it was obviously no different than the last three years he was playing next to those guys.
He didn't have problems now, so to blame his difficult defensive assignments now is a load of crap.
But at the end of the day, there's also some truth to it. Not the right thing for Kirk to think or say, but there's truth in it. Especially if you've got the guy who has to play with him openly lobbying about it.
So what do you do? Trade Kirk? Well, if you still have the problem. The fact is Kirk is one of the better fits for Gordon league-wide. So if he's throwing his hands up and saying he'd rather play with Thabo (whether justified or not for him to be doing it), you've got a pretty big problem.
by Sports2 on
Feb 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST
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That's dumb too.
by hscs on
Feb 11, 2008 12:33 PM CST
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That
by alec on
Feb 11, 2008 12:38 PM CST
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I couldn't with alec agree more
I love his scoring on this team, but that speaks more to the team deficiencies than Gordon's value. On a good team, he is a killer 6th man - he just doesn't do other things well enough to start (IMO).
With the vast talent, quickness, and athletic ability he possesses, one would think he would be a much better defender than he is. Not that I expect All-Defensive team from him, but he should not lose his man as often as he does.
I was certainly not pleased with him going to the bench for Duhon (that was not and upgrade). However, if this Thabo keeps playing, if he "get's it", then I'm all for Gordon coming off the bench and relegating Duhon to the 4th guard/backup PG (aka: "Kirk's in foul trouble - again").
by mdmnd9294 on
Feb 11, 2008 12:14 PM CST
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How much is a non all star worth?
I think that's what this will all come down to anyways.
by RogersPark Kris on
Feb 11, 2008 12:18 PM CST
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That's a great question.
by mdmnd9294 on
Feb 11, 2008 12:29 PM CST
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