David Thorpe is a believer

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2008 3:31 PM CST in News Comment 33 comments

We know that ESPN.com NBA scout David Thorpe loves Joakim Noah (and here's the latest example), but here's some eye-opening comments from him on Tyrus Thomas in an interview with colleague Chad Ford (NBA Dish 1/29, track it down here, hattip to the RealGM boarders) as a follow up to this article on NBA sophomores.

Here's my only-slightly paraphrased transcription:

Ford: Lets talk about a guy, who, I have to say, I had ranked number one on my board going into the draft [2 years ago], Tyrus Thomas. A guy who we knew was going to take a little while to get off the ground, was rawer than all the top prospects, but at least in terms of upside, athletic ability, and the motor he had, he looked like he could be a type of dominant player in the league. He's barely getting any time in Chicago.

Thorpe: I think it's the most shocking, surprising story from the draft, besides maybe Bargnani's [struggles], is the fact that Tyrus Thomas is almost a non-factor. I'm watching games and video every night for hours, there aren't five guys in the league that have Tyrus Thomas' upside. And it's not even just his crazy athletic ability, and I'm up in Chicago and I've watched them practice in the Berto Center and in pregame, he's much more skilled than I realized. He puts the ball on the ground very easily, used to be a point guard in high school, they've improved his shot and it looks much better...so he's got a skill game, and like you said he's got that motor and energy. I watched him the other night against Phoenix, and even though he's sitting on the bench, when a teammate makes a great play he's up smiling and clapping and high-fiving guys. He's everything you'd want in a young player, and I literally can't figure out what's going on. I talked to some of the players on the team, there's no issues with him behind the scenes. He's just a regular guy who I think is just dying for a chance. And I wonder if maybe now before the trade deadline, Paxson's starting to realize that this kid...against Phoenix, in just a few minutes, I think 31 minutes, he had a double-double, and considering he's barely playing he's impressive. And I think that's the one guy, if we have this conversation next year about 3rd year players, I would not be surprised if Tyrus Thomas is amongst those top-3 or 4 players in that class.

Ford: Do you think he does that in Chicago or does he need a change of scenery?

Thorpe: Well, they've already changed one coach, so that probably will have an impact, and no one suggests that this current staff will be there next year. I know this: I can't imagine John Paxson is gonna want to trade a talent like Tyrus Thomas. It's going to have to take an incredible deal, because even though he hasn't done much, it's so obvious to someone that must watch this kid play every day, that he's got an amazing upside, and so I actually would be very surprised if they moved him. I wouldn't be surprised if they moved guys like Nocioni, or maybe even Joe Smith to open up playing time for him, that'd make more sense to me. And then a year from now, if you still feel like you've got enough guys, you've raised his value cause he's gotten more playing time...but to move him now, which strictly based on reputation, as he's not done much, you're really not going to get value for what he's worth, it'd be a bad move, I think.

Now this is all fantastic praise, but I should note that when we hear about the other side of Tyrus, most notably from sources speaking through Sam Smith or Boers&Bernstein, it's regarding issues in terms of work ethic and professionalism, things that, like us, Thorpe can't see.

But hearing such an evaluation of what's happening on the court makes me even care less about those 'issues', and gives more reason to be miffed at this organization's use of Tyrus. And at the very least, it should keep Bulls fans from throwing him into every conceived trade proposal. I can't speculate that Tyrus is blameless for not getting more playing time, but in his case I'm a huge fan of 'entitlement' minutes, as the work-ethic-all-stars aren't nearly as interesting in a lost season.

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Tyrus=Next Jordan???

Nah....couldnt be....or could it...

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Jan 30, 2008 3:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

To contine the thread from the other diary

I saw that first half lineup he was in and it was a real head scratcher, but I guess Hinrich has to sit down at some point. But TT looked very good in the second half. If they could just figure out how to keep him away from the three point line... Joe Smith out should mean significantly more minutes for TT.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 30, 2008 3:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

But what's the point of that?

He won't learn where to be by playing. They should play Veektor just to show Tyrus how angry they are about him standing in the wrong place.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 30, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll stop messing around.

I think we all know why Thomas wasn't playing, we just disagreed as to if it was correct or not. But now... now that Joe Smith is hurt (which is a second part of "us" being right), we can all just sit back and see what happens.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 30, 2008 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Joe Smith might be hurt

but the reason given for his not playing last night was"flu-like symptoms."

Here's hoping it's the 48-hour flu....

by alec on Jan 30, 2008 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's better than saying Granpa-itis.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 30, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Flu/knee whatever it is,

I hope he has it again tonight. With Duhon and Smith hurt not playing, going to the game tonight might actually be enjoyable.

by Scotter on Jan 30, 2008 4:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

David Thorpe has no idea.

What does he know? He's not a coach in the NBA. Jim Boylan knows how to handle this rotten, lazy, POS. Punish, punish, punish. Sit, sit, sit. If he's clapping on the bench, he hasn't learned the lessons they're trying to teach him. Sooner or later he'll learn. And then... he'll start to see 15 mpg.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 30, 2008 3:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

And as much as it's nice to hear good things

wasn't Thorpe the guy who said that Justin Cage was the answer to all the bulls problems at the 2 guard spot?

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 30, 2008 3:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I only put half-stock in Thorpe.

I actually think it's a semi-endorsement for himself to tutor Tyrus. He likes to coach guys up over the summer, and if he says Tyrus just needs coaching... But yeah, he loves all Bulls players, it seems.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 30, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What's Thorpe's background?

by alec on Jan 30, 2008 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Florida HS coach

that developed a reputation for improving his players, which got him into training individual players.

by Scotter on Jan 30, 2008 4:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cage was hurt during training camp

and Thorpe was hyping his guy, but he was offering Cage up as a 10 min/g guy off the bench. Thorpe is a really solid. Besides Thorpe is simply describing what anybody should be able to see.

by Scotter on Jan 30, 2008 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

In my opinion, TT's primary problem

is that he isn't involved enough in the offensive sets. Occasionally, he tries to get position down on the block. (When he does that, though, he very rarely gets the entry pass from the ballhandler, which has to be disheartening). Typically, though, he is content to hover at the three point line or run very high screen and rolls. As a result, when he gets the ball, he is usually facing the basket from a distance of 15-18 feet. Even when he is wide open, which sometimes occurs on screens when both defensive players chase the ball, he still has to hit a medium ranger jumper, which puts a lot of pressure on his developing shooting skills. His jumper is improving and he has nice form, but he won't yet consistently hit that shot. Aditionally, because he is so far from the basket, it partially nullifies his rebounding ability.

Now, I don't know if he stays so high because it's his preference or because the offense is designed that way. I can imagine that the three in the Bulls' system is required to float at the arc in order to preserve spacing. If so, then Tyrus needs to play at the four. He has an athletic advantage over most other power forwards and his jumping ability compensates for his lack of height.

In any case, it's critical for Tyrus to become more engaged at the offensive end. He has to get the ball within ten feet of the basket and create with post moves or short drives. He can beat his defender off the dribble (I am glad Thorpe noted his ballhandling skills) and he often gets fouled.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 30, 2008 4:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Thomas

seems like the type of player who desperately needs a great PG to reach his potential... I don't think anyone on the Bulls will ever be able to facilitate Thomas properly, and he can't (at least not yet) do anything offensively on his own

by tomes521 on Jan 30, 2008 4:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

not really

Thomas is one of the few players on the Bulls who can create on his own. He's just not going to do it standing on the perimeter as a Joe Smith/Nocioni/Deng placeholder. He's not so good moving without the ball, but a Tyrus Thomas play or two closer to the basket would help him get involved. Steve Nash couldn't do a thing for Thomas with the role he's been given lately.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 30, 2008 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This diary gets me riled-up

We draft a 19 y.o. possible phenom, possible bust. You expect ups, downs, dumb plays but hopefully some flashes of brilliance. We saw flashes last year. He was better last year than I anticipated. What does the coaching staff do? They focus on his mistakes. We don't let him play. Dumb mistakes come with drafting a 19 y.o. My analogy is Chandler. I'm not bring Chandler up to beat us up for trading him (we have done that already), but to use him as an example of how we screw up young players heads. I find it totally unacceptable when a player feels the Bulls coaching staff retards his development. Sure Paul helps him but I believe Skiles hurt him. We are doing it again with TT. What player can we get in a trade without losing a good player that has TT's potential? I know you heard this from me before but Matt has uncovered my angst. Even Gray has some potential. Who knows if he can really work on his footwork and learn how to play reasonable defense and he could become a decent backup for Noah. He does show flashes of good post moves with an ability to score.

We need to provide TT consistent playing time and patience. Dumb, head-shaking mistakes come with the territory of drafting a 19 y.o. with great potential.

by chgobr on Jan 30, 2008 4:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

gah, don't lump them together

Gray's footwork is fine, he needs new feet.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

whats the rush?

i know the bulls desperately need another reliable scorer, and it would have been nice for thomas to be that guy, but so what if he isn't there yet. Its his second year in the league! we all knew he was a project, probably not a player who is going to significantly contribute to a decent team right away. thats why pax went after joe smith.
Does all of this imply he is going to be a bust? Not in my opinion. The season is at the point where boylan needs to start playing thomas so he gets more experience, regardless if he is a liability (sometimes he is, sometimes he is the spark they need) out there. there is no bigger liability than noc, anyway. At the beginning of the season i was saying thomas isnt there yet, so why should he be getting significant minutes, but now, what difference does it make? He needs PT to develop that "rawness." Remember back in the day when it took young players a year or two to develop and get used to playing at the nba level?
look at thabo. a little PT and confidence, and he hasn't looked back since. tyrus needs to keep his head up and work hard and everything will be fine.

by Conor on Jan 30, 2008 5:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I agree on Thabo.

It does feel like he has crossed the threshold into legit player status.

On the whole idea of on-court asset vs. liability, what we've seen is that when offered even a paltry few minute per game commitment, one after another the young Bulls have really demonstrated their worth.

Thabo and Noah were the first show they belong, but Tyrus now has started to string together respectable minutes. The nba is an anti-entitlement league. Young players are forced earn it. I guess it's part of the weeding out process. The life, the money, is so good, that those who have made it demand that it not be given away to anyone. If the Bulls weren't putting Tyrus through the ringer, probably their opponents would.

But the flip side of this no-entitlement league is that once a player begins to show he belongs, he does get respect. But it seems, and rightly so (I'm sure KT would agree), that the player has to take the first step.

Has Tyrus? Maybe. If not, it feels like it's close for him.

Also interesting to consider is that if Noah, Thabo and now Tyrus all turn into solid contributors on Boylan's watch, Boylan's stature as a developer of young players will go through the roof.

by alec on Jan 30, 2008 5:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

or boylan tripping over his own ineptitude

and falling into player development. Unless he was coughing in Joe Smith's face, and kneecapping Chris Duhon.

I don't think it's true at all that minutes are earned. If the player is a talent, they're given minutes all the time in the NBA. Plus, Tyrus earned them already last season! He really doesn't apply to the term, and my remark about entitlement minutes was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2008 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Last season and the beginning of this one.

Skiles just hit the panic button on Thomas instead of Gordon early this year and Joe Smith(to his credit) has run with the starting job.

And the idea that we can't make the playoffs unless the veterans play most of the minutes goes completely against the majority of the end of last year. When Thomas and Sefolosha(to a lesser degree) helped win a series and push another to six.

by CrashDavis on Jan 30, 2008 5:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What?

TT is a veteran, and he didn't do squat in the Miami series last year.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 30, 2008 6:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know about that, Matt.

Perhaps I am again guilty of interpolating...but when I go back to the 90's in my business--bond arbitrage--it was so lucrative, in some cases even NBA-lucrative (out of deference to hscs I won't talk income specifics), but we guarded our turf very jealously.

The new guys trying to break in always got the last fill, the slowest service, the worst clerks. It just went without saying. They had to surmount huge obstacle before they started getting even looked at by the bigger brokers. I don't see why it would be that much different in the NBA.

by alec on Jan 30, 2008 5:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

right on with boylan

i dont think this is actually the case, but it does seem like boylan is a little scared of wallace. He needs to cut that crap out and realize he owes wallace nothing if wallace isnt getting it done out there. boylan's future is in his hands, and i think the best way for him to be brought back will be letting the young guys play through their ups and downs. and finally, pax brings in an asst coach who can teach our big guys how to be more effective. Hopefully, that will pay dividends by the end of the year

by Conor on Jan 30, 2008 5:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the anti-entitlement league

Larry Brown and Scott Skiles started a basketball league???

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 30, 2008 5:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Careful, by the end of the year

your sig might read "retain Boylan!"

by alec on Jan 30, 2008 5:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Amongst the players, I think it is.

That's what the whole make-'em-wait-a-year for the draft was all about---at least from the players' union's perspective. I don't get it because it seems that a team is going to draft a player whether he's 18 or 19, but I remember that was one of the big reasons the union (obviously highly influenced by veterans) readily agreed to it.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 30, 2008 5:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's true

however, players don't dole out minutes.

::smacks forehead::

oh wait, except on the Bulls, they don't hand out suspensions either.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2008 6:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ha

by alec on Jan 30, 2008 6:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I only made the joke

because a list of exceptions to alec's anti-entitlement rule would crash the SBN servers. I totally agree, the players have no reason to embrace cheaper rookies taking their jobs. I just think "entitlement" wasn't even in our vocabulary until Skiles came along, and the local media heavily breathed over his anti-entitlement, performance based (ha) minutes distribution.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 30, 2008 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs