The once and future Kirk

9-2 gets us back to .500 by the All Star break*

Kirk really needed to step up since the other two "Big 3" players were out, and he more than delivered (his four 2nd half turnovers get a pass tonight). But Kirk was who we thought he was.

Tonight reinforced who we thought and who we hoped our last three 1st round draft picks would be. So here's to wishing our "Young 3" get their playing time. Or help us God.

*Out of the games vs Phoenix, @ Golden State, @ Utah, vs New Orleans, if we can split'em and go 2-2, there is no reason why we can't be 26-26. We should not be losing to any other team before All-Star weekend.

by Orange Juice on Jan 24, 2008 12:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

we shouldnt

but we also shouldnt get blown out by the Grizzlies

by JSlakov on Jan 24, 2008 1:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You can't

say that this team should not be losing to any other team before the All-Star weekend. They will make a liar out of you. You should never sount on this years team for anything.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 7:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

never sount on this years team for anything

That includes your Lt. Kirk, dear Sue...

:-)

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Jan 24, 2008 9:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

came straight home to post that one, huh

didn't even take the time to kick the dog or beat the wife first, either. Kudos.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

whoops

forgot the :-) my bad.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No shit sherlock.

I said the team and he is part of the team. He is a captain no matter how many times you write Lt.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 25, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We should beat the Suns

They play Friday night at Cleveland and then have to hop on a flight right after the game for a Noon tipoff on Saturday morning. They should be pretty much dead from exhaustion.

We the Friday night game against Charlotte, but the team can just get a hotel for the night to be ready for the game Sat morning.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 8:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Suns

game is on Sunday so they each have a days rest.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

blah

My Google calendar is off. Why is it telling the game is on Saturday?

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wallace will be late

actually it would be better if we told him the game started at 730

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 8:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just Praying

this isn't a once in a lifetime thing for Kirk, I hope he continues to improve or hell, if he played as well as he did tonight (minus the turnovers), we'd be golden, and by golden I mean, bearable.

by AGBallinisaHabit on Jan 24, 2008 2:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If Duhon

returns along with Hinrich in the starting line up expect him to regress. A major factor in his good game was Thabo.

by cranscape on Jan 24, 2008 8:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Thabo and Hinrich are a very useful combination. Combine them with solid post players and a healthy Deng on the wing, and you might have a contending team. Duhon is a solid back-up but will probably never be starter material. That's OK, you need a good back-up.

Gordon appears to have hit his ceiling, they're bringing him off the bench and he's a free agent after this year. Do the math.

by Bayern Munich on Jan 24, 2008 10:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noce rocks too

Hey, check this out

http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/2008/01/nba-news-surprise-in-boston-wins-for.html

Please visit my blog @ http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/

by sivanjohn on Jan 24, 2008 2:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

8-19 from the field, including 2-8 from 3, 6-9 FT

Boy, they Bulls couldn't have gotten that kind or production from anyone. I forgot to mention the amazing 7 rebounds in 44 minutes. Noce is a decent player, but that 24, 7 line that some want to celebrate is fairly empty. He got it by being on the floor and chucking shots for 44 minutes. Of course, we can't measure the fact that he's the heart of the team and the other 11 players on the team will simultaneously drop dead if the Bulls trade him.

by snley on Jan 24, 2008 8:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why all the Noc hate all the time

Noc has been our most consistent player this year, I don't get all the hate. Sure he shot 42% for the night, but he hit buckets when they needed to hit the buckets, and it's not like he was busy taking shots away from BG or Luol, he was taking shots away from Wallace, Noah, Griffin, Thabo and the usually sub par for a guard Hinrich.....

All the Noc hate is ridiculous. I can't wait until all the fans like those here complain him out of town and he comes back to torch us on a competitive team.

Hell, he'd really help the Grizzlies even sans Pau, he's an effort guy who while not fabulously gifted, has enough of an IQ to make many smart moves when the team needs them.

I just don't get why everyone rags on Noc all the time. Personally, I'd keep him, and trade the more valuable Deng for someone who will be better than Deng. Luol is a gifted player, who isn't ridiculously athletic--but more so than Noc, but has no killer instinct. Luol's been around long enough that I don't think a Killer Instinct is just going to come to him. Work out a trade for a real star, or a few uber talented youngs for Deng is what I say (though I would avoid Deng for gimpy TMAC and might avoid Deng and change for Pau unless Memphis included some other young commodity)....

Noc makes a defensive lapse and leaves the 3 ball open at times, but he also draws plenty of charges and often gets a block and some baskets after a stupid mistake. It's just the fact that Noc is so energetic that we tend to notice his mistakes, while Deng falls asleep often in the 4th to little fanfare. Deng's not our superstar folks.....he's never been a ridiculous athlete, and while Deng's good at a bit of everything, he's really not great at anything and doesn't have the killer instinct that could make him the great player everyone expected him to be this year.....

I was in the minority this offseason saying this, now more folks are noticing the same but not quite as vocal about it and by this point next year when Deng has too high a contract for what he's worth when we have a similarly skilled (though slightly less so player--Noc behind him), we'll be stuck and Deng's value will drop.

Hell, I'd love to sign Deng this offseason and work out something to trade him to the Kings for Kevin Martin....Deng's likely got higher presumed market value since Chicago's a bigger market and Deng's gotten all the buzz, but Kevin Martin's the better player.....

by majoyenrac on Jan 24, 2008 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Deng complaints

I've always thought Deng was a below avg NBA athelete and believe that was the knock on him in college as well.

I agree Deng is not going to become all-star or team leader. He has a nice game, good on D but not dominate and good on offense but lacks great handles, great offensive moves, and 3 pt shot to make him a go to guy every night

there is room on team I think for both Noc and Deng but they should not be untradable (and I don't believe Bulls would have not given up Deng if they could have got KG)

by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 24, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree with you wholeheartedly

No one on these Bulls is untradable, well besides the 'fro who I doubt anyone will take with the $$ he has coming to him.

Maybe we can buy him out and have him retire. I read today that Miami is discussing the same with Shaq, which might allow them to save their salary cap nightmare....(i think this was from hoopshype).

I think Pax doesn't want to part with Noc for Gasol (Which I can agree, since Pau is a fabulously gifted player who might need a motivator/energy scoring PF to keep him in gear)....Noah is an energy guy but too young....Noc is an Olympic Gold champion who would be well respected by Pau.

But I'd be fine parting with anyone for the right player. I think Deng's a higher value as he's slightly better but really much much younger (which drives up his value) and I don't think and haven't thought our production would be hurt too much if we had a healthy Noc replacing Deng, especially if we part Deng for a talented superstar (Kobe).

Pax f'd up. That whole discussion that Kobe trade talks weren't serious is a screen, the Bulls love being able to say that because we all think it's a big f-up, and the Lakers of course want to push that message because they want their fan base to remain committed to the best player in the league (and not think of him as the Benedict Arnold he portrayed all summer). I'm sure that we didn't make the trade because Pax loved Deng too much, trading Deng, Wallace, and pieces would have been a huge steal for us, but it's over with now....oh well.

Moving forward, we need to move forward, if the Gasol idea is dead, well then Pax should come out and say it's dead and we can talk about other guys we should fight to get. Much as I like healthy TMAC, and also likely unavailable.....

I don't want KIDD, too old, too inept as a scorer for our offensively deprived team....we don't have Vince and RJ playing alongside him (and look at their success?). Kidd's had a fabulous career, but surely we can find someone else who's say in their late 20's for our talented but misfitted group of young 20's.....

by majoyenrac on Jan 24, 2008 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Noc hate probably isn't fair

Neither is the adulation of him as more than he is, a very good role player. I have to say, I'm more annoyed by the type of player he represents. He is a max hustle and effort player, which can be fun to watch. In the end, all his hustle and effort production is league average. Yet because he looks like he plays extra hard, people want to call him ridiculous things like the heart of the team and value him much higher than his production warrants. Unfortunately, Paxson gave him a contract that shows he was suckered too.

The Bulls will get much better bang for their buck paying Deng 10-12.5 mil/year than they will paying Noc 8.5 mil/year. Deng may never be all that we want him to be, but he's still a potential All-Star who will probably be relatively underpaid.

By the way, Noc has not been the Bulls most consistent player this year, not that that really matters. Joe Smith has probably had the most non-terrible games this season, if you want to label that as consistency. Noc has thrown his fair share of absolute stinkers as well as his fair share of good games.

by snley on Jan 24, 2008 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

meh

I'd rather be paying for production than paying for potential.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

oh god.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Um, I think Deng is already outproducing Noc

Deng 2007-08 PER: 17.67
Nocioni 2007-08 PER: 16.20

Granted, Nocioni has also carried the burden of being the heart of our team. Not sure how to compares that to Deng's season long battle w/ injuries.

by snley on Jan 24, 2008 5:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But

is that difference worth $5M more per year for 6 more years? No it isn't. Noc's stats also have been a bit more negatively impacted by Skiles' early mix of minutes, Noc would play 5 minutes and sit or play 2 minutes, then play 35 minutes, then play 8 minutes.....

Deng hasn't had that luxury.

Plus PER is a skewed formula in my mind (something you can tell was thought up by a math guy--which I am as well). I buy a lot of stuff that can't always be measured as an important piece as well (Such as being confident enough to try to make plays in game changing situations--and often succeeding, regardless of how poor perhaps the first 15-20 minutes of play you had), deflections, charges, etc....stuff that Hollinger doesn't always grab from his too stat heavy statistic that ESPN has blabbed about ad nauseum so that many now think it's a be-all end all statistic.

Fact is Deng's good, Noc is good, less than 1.5 point PER difference isn't to me worth $5M more a year on a team striving to get that superstar player...I'd rather trade that borderline maybe eventual if everything goes right when it goes right depending on the players around him and how much he fills a leadership role guy like Deng. Deng's got the highest value (a bit too high for what I feel his eventual max production will be) so let's use his value as a bargaining chip to get a superstar (or combo of solid young players maybe from the Atlanta PF spots and picks for Deng and some of our also-rans (Khryapa, Griffin--and his locker room calming rep)....

by majoyenrac on Jan 24, 2008 6:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

PER helps Noc

because it doesn't account for his abysmal defense. And the cause of a career of team-hurting (in the truest sense, anyway)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Only team hurting?

No gold medal-winning team helping anywhere in his background?

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 7:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't have the olympic +/- numbers

in front of me, anyway.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 9:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus with offense

I won't disagree that Noc roams on D. He does. He also makes plays though.

But it is still opposing guards that have created the most problems for us on defense.

by NBA Observer on Jan 25, 2008 8:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree to disagree then

because while Noc has lapses with outside shooters, he'll also draw lots of charges and get in guys faces (making them less effective at times too).

Again I think the ire is because of the wide open 3's when Noc does the double team at the paint, and the fact that Noc looks crazy and super energetic that we tend to notice his faults more.

He's no superstar, but he's a worthy star in my book, and is hardly this team's biggest problem, in fact I'd say he (and Joe Smith) have been the most consistent all year. Deng's been good, but has games where he gets numbers but doesn't play hard when the game matters most (Something PER doesn't measure, and he seemed a bit lost in th ehype the first month of the season if not more....I'm still waiting for Superstar Deng I guess--I like Deng, but I also don't think and have never thought he's as good as his hype).

Noc can have a crappy game, but come in in crunch time moments and make the important plays we need to get some wins.....that's far more important than PER of a guy like Deng who'll get the baskets early when they're easier, and then do little when they're harder (Even though he has the talent to do more when it's harder, he doesn't have that psyche).

I'm afraid we'll ahve to agree to disagree. It's your blog though, so feel free to disagree(I like the blog though :)).

by majoyenrac on Jan 25, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That small difference in PER says alot.

Deng and Nocioni are separated by 1.5 in PER while the 22 year old Deng is having a disappointing season and the 28 year old Nocioni is probably having the best season of his career. Granted, there are things that PER doesn't cover, like Nocioni's tendency to leave his man open outside for a half assed double team or Deng's tendency to disappear during 4th quarters.

Any way you put it, Nocioni is clearly the lesser player. When you remove the smoke and mirrors of his grit and hustle, you can see he is a far lesser player. Deng will probably never be a superstar. He is, though, much more likely to earn the value of his next contract than Nocioni is to earn the value of his current contract. Would I be willing to see Deng go for an actual superstar? Absolutely, bring on the Kobe trade rumors again. Do I think Paxson should be shopping Deng? Fuck no.

by snley on Jan 25, 2008 12:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I like Deng

Ambassador to the game, great talent, not a superstar, not uber-atheletic but athletic enough, a smart player, knows his strengths, doesn't make many mistakes, is decent and consistent.

I'm not saying Noc is better than Deng, what I am saying is that Deng's value is far greater than Noc right now and the differences between the two aren't as night and day as it would be to compare say a Dwyane Wade to a Ricky Davis.....

It's more like comparing a Mike Miller and Ben Gordon (Mike's a taller player who can get boards and is a consistent scorer, whereas BG's a flashier player who can score a lot more points on good days than Miller (and do so more often) but can also wallow with some bad nights for several games on end). Gordon's likely got far higher trade value, but I'm not quite sold that he's the all out better player--though I as a fan want to think he is and respect BG more--even though I keep indicating trading BG, I think much of that has to do with our need for height.

by majoyenrac on Jan 25, 2008 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A tough team to predict

This always happens after a win: the Bulls feebly convince us they can close out games and show [weak] signs that they can be the team we all hoped they'd be, and then along comes the next game where the shots aren't falling, we can't score more than 12 points a quarter, and we're blown out by a team that may or may not be above .500.

Before Memphis, I had personal hopes of the Bulls going 5-1 to close out the month of January, with the probable loss being Phoenix. Naturally, the Bulls were pounded by [sigh] Memphis. So much for predicting how to get a run going.

If this team struggles to win back-to-back games, how in the hell are they supposed to turn this season around? A win streak? A serious, competent run? Hah! I'll believe it when I see it.

On another note, very delightful to see Kirk and Noah post up good numbers, as well as Thabo in the lineup and even Tyrus getting some minutes. After a 38-point scorcher, I wonder if having Thabo bring up the ball on offense with Kirk at the 2 would be a worthy experiment.

by ForWhomTheBullTolls on Jan 24, 2008 3:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

One thing I'd like to check

is the production of Kirk when paired with Thabo - in other words, how much does playing with a bigger guard help his game? Was this the second game they started together?

by Freethefro on Jan 24, 2008 7:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It'll be easier to figure out

when 82games updates their player pairs data again. But based on last year, Kirk was much better when paired with Thabo over Duhon, and Thao was a ton better playing with Kirk than with Duhon. Here's a diary that dealt with last year's numbers. I've wanted to updte it with this year's numbers, but as of 1/07/08 Kirk and Thabo had only played 75 min together. It's just not a big enough sample size so far. I'll figure it out when 82games updates again.

http://blogabull.com/story/2007/10/18/152332/61

by Scotter on Jan 24, 2008 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice work there

looking forward to the new, and hopefully permanent, edition.

by Freethefro on Jan 24, 2008 4:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course

Hinrich finally looks (on paper and in the box score) like the old scrappy Kirk and it comes on a day when I couldn't see the game....

Maybe he read all my ragging on him accross the net (here and sportsline)--I like to think I make a difference--but yeah, it's good to see him score 20, let alone 38 and 10 and 6 or 8 boards or whatever it was. 20 points these days is a shocker for Kirk, so 38 was thrilling.

I hope it keeps up as I've been a big Hinrich fan (he was the glue guy for our team and the only unmovable piece until this year at least in my book), and I hope he gets back.

See what 1 game can do, it can give me hope.

I like the fact that Thabo and Noah seem to be contributing, hopefully I can see their next game (and hopefully it's not going to end up like the Memphis game).

by majoyenrac on Jan 24, 2008 7:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

A win is a win.

I don't care who is on the floor or for how many minutes as long as they win.

Very happy that Kirk had a good game and Noah is just playing kick ass ball right now.

I'm so glad Skiles is gone because we would never have had the chance to see what Thabo is doing for this team now. With Duhon still out I'm anxious to see how Thabo and Kirk play the next few games. Nice to see 52 points from them last night.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 7:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

excuse me

if I don't get all giddy about KH's 38-point outburst...but like it was mentioned in the game thread, he pretty much had no choice...with 3 other players out (all starters in some respect) and them playing against a wack team, I would've been surprised if he DIDN'T get over 25.

Let's see how he plays against Charlotte and Phoenix...I know he probably won't get 38/10/7 again...but can he at least get somewhere close to 20-25/7/4?

Hopefully he won't have to because hopefully Ben will be back...

by ScottieCartwright on Jan 24, 2008 8:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Awww, did your

neighbors dog shit on your morning paper?

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 8:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lol

nah, but it did snow about 3-4 inches...maybe that's why i'm grumpy today

by ScottieCartwright on Jan 24, 2008 8:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I hear ya.

It's -15 here today. I wish whoever pissed mother nature off would apologize.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 8:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sorry about that...

I called her fat after I asked her how old she was...my bad.

by Lt.Dan on Jan 24, 2008 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dude

apologize already.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no...

not until she apologizes for kicking my dog.

by Lt.Dan on Jan 24, 2008 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dear Paxson, Dear Kerr

The Suns can't rebound. They shoot 56% from the field, 100% from the line, and 37% from 3pt territory and lose by 10 TO THE TIMBERWOLVES.

Ben Wallace. BEN Wallace. BEN WALLACE.

Do it PaxKerr. Wallace for Stoudemire. Suns are running out of time. So it Ben Wallace's trade value.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 8:48 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why stop there?

Think big and propose Wallace for Stoudemire and Nash, then fall back to Marion and Nash.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

send Steve Kerr your mixtape

"Ben Wallace's best boxouts"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Too bad Wallace can't rebound anymore either

by Big D on Jan 24, 2008 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

John Jackson reports that Ben Wallace

was a late arrival for the game last night.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/756947,CST-SPT-bullnt24.article

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 9:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

He also mentioned

that Joe Smith, BG and Viktor were late also.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 9:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know somebody out there

is going to accuse me of singling out Wallace, so let me get this out of the way now. I plead guilty as charged.

Yes others were late, too. Maybe that's why Viktor didn't get a garbage time minute? Gordon wasn't going to play anyway. Joe Smith--I'm beginning to wonder about, though.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

vet leadership

I like that Boylan was even asked if the fine would be waived. As if whoever asked was saying "well, you let them vote on suspensions, so why not?"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Please Pax

get rid of the HasBen Wallace, I will take Rad's bad contract, just get rid of him!!!

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 9:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If we can't get rid of BW

I don't mind him COMING OFF THE BENCH.

Does Boylan have the cojones to start the clearly superior player Noah over Wallace?

If he doesn't, then he should be fired.

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 24, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that will be the day

I would love to see BW come off the bench, Boylan will never do it though. He is still trying to find a way to Adrain minutes!! I wouldn't be surprised when Duhon comes back that he is inserted in the starting lineup for Thabo

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So true. Boylan can't, or won't

bench Wallace even though, as SBulls showed, Wallace is hurting the team more than any other player. I guess I don't really understand why the Bulls are willing to lose a whole season to keep Wallace happy. Of course, if he's not traded or benched, Wallace will surely destroy our chances next year as well.
Maybe the Bulls are trying to attract all the old washed up players in the league to appeal to the older, richer fanbase who can afford the higher ticket prices. Damn Reinsdorf is a frickin' genius.

by philosoball on Jan 24, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thabo has shown

he deserves to stay in the starting lineup now let's see if the coaches are as smart as we are. :-)

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Can you thnk

Of the last time a high profile/high priced player like Wallace was benched in favor of a rookie?

I sure can't

by Option27 on Jan 24, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Marbury

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 24, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Because of play or other things though?

by Option27 on Jan 24, 2008 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Probably a combination of both

'Star-bury' has not only been a cancer but his play has been awful.

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 24, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And he just had season-ending surgury.

Any nagging old problems Big Ben needs to have cleared up before getting transferred to his new team?

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

It's more cause of his attitude.

I really wish Ben needed to have season ending surgery though

by Option27 on Jan 24, 2008 10:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

does he really count?

It's the Knicks...in all their Isaiah "glory".

by Lt.Dan on Jan 24, 2008 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So, Boylan dislikes Tyrus' play, right?

It's pretty much official now. I mean, there's no other rational explanation for it. So what if Indiana had their small-ball lineup in during the fourth. The Bulls made the run in the 2nd against Diener, Daniels, Diogu, Dunleavy and Williams w/ Granger replacing Williams. With Foster in there instead of Diogu (the other positions essentially being the same), they're actually a bigger team.

So let's recap:

Bulls make run against "super small" lineup w/ Noah, Thomas, Nocioni, Griffin and Thabo and then Kirk coming in for Thabo.

In the fourth, Pacers have a bigger lineup, but Thomas gets ousted because the Bulls want to play smaller.

Got it.

Good thing Thomas wasn't in there instead of Griffin, they might have won by more!!!

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 24, 2008 10:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Looking bad for Tyrus

If he can't get more than 11 minutes of burn against the Pacers without Jermaine O'neal and Troy Murphy, when will any matchup dictate giving him more minutes?

Tyrus can't win with the current staff. He was effective last night.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

why don't you ask boylan

he played TT for 9 minutes in the first half, so he can't hate him that much. I thought he should have played TT in second half, too, but boylan went with the extra ball handler. TT played ok in the first half, but it wasn't like he set the world on fire.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually, what I think Boylan

was responding to in the second half was Wallace's poor post play. Thabo and Kirk kept giving the ball to Wallace in the post, because he was able to get great position. But once he got the ball he didn't do anything with it. Stacy mentioned this a couple of times.

When Boylan took Wallace out, he actually replaced him in the post with Griff...and the truth is, A-Drain completely had his way with the Pacer's tiny interior defense.

We may have wanted to see Tyrus (and Tyrus probably would have done a great job, after all, he'd just had a great 2nd quarter), but Griff did what Boylan wanted him to; the Bulls rebuilt their lead and went on to coast to victory.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It may have looked like he was having his

way. But Griff having his way produces 2 for 8 from the field and 1 for 3 from the line for a total of 5 points in 27 min. Wallace's offense was awful, but his defensive rebounding in the 2nd half was just as awful. Putting in the player that grabbed 4 boards in 11 min might just have been a good idea. Griff played just well enough to cover Boylan's rear end.

by Scotter on Jan 24, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm pretty sure that 1-6

of his 2-8 came in the first half.

Hey, I was as pissed off as anyone to see him come in instead of Tyrus. I'm just offering what I think was Boylan's intention.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It was, which meant he was a dominant

1/2 with 1 rebound and 2 PF in the 2nd half. But, I have no idea how to quantify his calming effect.

You probably have Boylan's intentions right, but I don't see how Kirk and Noah saving Boylan from his own stupidity should make me feel any better about Boylan's intentions.

by Scotter on Jan 24, 2008 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Adrian having his way in the post?

he shot 2-8 with 5 points and 3 rebounds... in 28 minutes. Thats not having your way in the post. But, Boylan is lucky he screw it up. AGriff did actually play decent for AGriff. I'm not going to complain that much since the Bulls did win, but my point was that this coaching staff seems to have lost confidence in Tyrus

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

having his way

the Pacers were actually double-teaming him!

But yeah, even with position Griff can't finish at all, some of those shots he took were laughable. But then again it's a laughable type season, both the funny and depressing kind.

I still can't believe Boylan read his statline though, that is priceless. And praised Wallace for guarding Jeff Foster! I know I frown on inter-sport comparisions but Boylan is the new Bruce Kimm.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Do you like +- or not?

Because Griffin was a +20 last night.

It's not about scoring in the post. It's about making the defense look stupid. The Pacers were practically building a wall around Griffin everytime he tried to post. Stacey King even tried to bail out the Pacers saying "Grifs not on the scouting report." You think?

Griffin could have scored zero last night and he still would have been a highly efficient player.

Maybe your incapable of seeing value in Griffin, but the longer you ride him the more you make Mike North sound credible.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

effective, not efficient

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I am incapable of seeing value in Griffin

you can take on that responsibility, go nuts. It will take all your scouting prowess.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK, that does it!

Cross-sporting with Bruce Kimm? You've set the bar high, my friend. You've set the bar high.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

TT didn't really have any impact either

He played solidly, but it wasn't like it was obvious that they needed to get TT back in either. 4 rebs in 11 min is ok, but that's really all they ask him to do. And he got three of those in his first 3 mins. At the very least, TT needs to crash the offensive boards more consistently because he can be really effective there. And they left him in for 9 consecutive min for the second consecutive game, which is more than the 3 and 6 minute stints he was getting, so it's improving.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

are we trying to rationalize here?

Sure, there's reasons the staff is doing this.

But who cares? It's moronic. Tyrus should play because they need him to be good. Griffin shouldn't because he's as old as dirt and moves accordingly. Unless there's a drastic difference in performance it should go that way. And Griffin's not capable of drastically outperforming Thomas even on Tyrus' most spacy of nights.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ok

I agree that they should be actively working to develop TT and take advantage of the things he can do well besides entry passing. But TT needs to drastically outperform ADrain, too.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No, he doesn't

he just has to be alive as justification in playing over Griffin.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

by goldengod on Jan 24, 2008 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm having trouble

finding a player thats worse than Griff in the NBA

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sean Marks

Oh guards? Sebastian Telfair.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and exactly when did

Adrain "set the world on fire" Last night was a prefect example of the coaching staff either having no faith in Tyrus, just dont like him, or/and are in love with Adrian Griffin. It was a perfect time to give him some minutes while the team was winning and give him some confidence. I'm not sure what happend with him starting but he was announced in the pregame as a starter then plays 9 min?? And in those 9 minutes he does nothing to hurt his cause

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

alec has

a good explanation just above your post.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

he played 11 minutes

and to be honest, I didn't see him do much of anything on the offensive end whereas ADrain was marginally effective posting up, and by marginal, I mean he drew some fouls. I would have rather seen TT in the post, but for whatever reason, the bulls coaches have this hard on for small ball. I don't get it either, but the whole "They hate TT" thing is a little overblown.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that they don't hate TT

that implies there's an explanation. They're just morons, or at the very least in the usual coaching bunker where you play your crappy veterans.

Griffin is sooooo bad out there. Although his finishing ability is better than Ben Wallace, the other post-up fiend of the night. I could not believe how much those two held the ball, and I highly doubt it's in the vaunted playbook.

Boylan was bailed out by Noc and Kirk. That's how most coaching evaluation happens.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm pretty sure

the opposite team couldn't care less where BW catches the ball so they let him get good position in the hopes he will throw up his patented Don't-even-look-at-the-basket-too-hard-no-chance-of-ever-going-in hook shot of extreme putridness.

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 24, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He got an offensive rebound and actully finished.

The one time he got the ball in position to score, he put it on the floor and got to the FT line and made both FTs. The rest of the time, he was stuck outside making post entry passes to Griff (Which he does very well). He took advantage of the few offensive opportunities he had.

by Scotter on Jan 24, 2008 11:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think we can agree

that TT as post-entry pass extraordinaire is a waste of TT's talents, but he did it well and the bulls were effective. He also had one TO trying to take it to the basket where he was stripped. So I'll guess I'll just be frustrated like the rest of you and wonder why they can't figure out how to get him the ball closer in.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i agree

that he needs to stop wandering around the 3pt line. He has not nice post moves, along with interior passing? Why doesn't this brilliant coaching staff post him up?

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

because he missed a hook shot 4 games ago

The coaching staff doesn't let that kind of thing go, unless a member of the electoral college does it.

I'm not sure Thomas is going to be effective posting up in a half court set, but the Bulls found plenty of ways to get Eddy the ball near the basket while he was on the move.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 24, 2008 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For one...

...it blows your theories out of the water that if he doesn't screw up or if the match-up is right, he'll get the playing time. This was the perfect opportunity where he played well while he was in there and the match-up was fine for him. Whether they actively dislike him is debatable (I think), but they clearly have no interest in developing him. I don't care if Griffin was "okay" as that's a clearly irrelevant for any team that has a No. 4 overall pick sitting on the bench.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 24, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well is a stretch

he did ok, but 4 boards and one bucket in 9 minutes isn't exactly lighting it up. So I wouldn't use this as a test case for my theories.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So now you want him to "light it up"?

First it was "not being bad". So he goes out for a pace that would be a double-double in 30 mins, but that's not good enough. Dude, you're ridiculous. 4/4 in 11 total minutes is good. It just goes to show how crazy your "I know if he's good or not in 3 minutes" theory is.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 24, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if he had kept up his pace in the first 3 min

he would have finished with double digit rebounds.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 7:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Boylan, like Skiles, sees

how bad the Bulls offense is and assumes that Griffin will give them better scoring than TT. But as last night showed, without Deng and Gordon, the Bulls score a lot when their better defenders are able to cause turnovers and get out and run. Thabo, Noah and yes, Tyrus are going to frustrate a lot of teams into bad shots which should help the Bulls offense as well. Griffin's offense will never outweigh Tyrus' other contributions even assuming his scoring is worse than Griff's.

by philosoball on Jan 24, 2008 11:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

it's not

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 24, 2008 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Simple Living

Griffin draws help defenders when he posts.
Thomas does not.

Griffin won't have +20 nights that often. Injuries for the Bulls had him in the game more often than usual. Injuries for the Pacer bigs created a better working environment for Griffin to operate.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Griffin drawing double teams

indicates how poorly the Pacers played defensively more than anything else.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 24, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

double team AG?

wow, that had to be a funny sight to see

I'm not sure I would double Griffin in the post if it was me who was one him, lol

by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 24, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it was Dunleavy and Daniels at one point

who are both the same size, or bigger than A-Drain too.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 24, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Even if what you say is 100%

accurate, only the most short-sighted coach would fail to give Tyrus every minute he could in a game where he is playing well and your other option is Adrian Freakin' Griffin. If the Bulls are planning on ever becoming good before the Resurrection comes to judge mankind, then Tyrus is going to be the key, not Griffin the Stiff-en.

by philosoball on Jan 24, 2008 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Stil Simple Living

Griffin's old. Thomas is not.

Tyrus will receive no free minutes. We've figured this out. Boylan's not playing him if other players are playing better. Boylan's not playing him if Tyrus isn't in the areas on offense where he can excel.

Noah's eating all the minutes Tyrus was expecting to get. Noah's earning the PT with his play.

I still see Tyrus pumped during introductions. He's still standing to cheer for his teammates. He's still involved with the team. But his game still needs a lot of work and with the Bulls trying to make the playoffs it's doubtful Tyrus' minutes will go any higher than maybe 10 per outing.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Joe Smith sat out today's practice

with knee soreness.

There's hope for Tyrus yet.

I don't think it reflects well on the coaching staff that it takes an injury to a starter to get a young guy playing time--only to discover the young guy plays better than the guy he replaced.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

since when

did Tyrus become a Center. Noah is playing Center and backing up Wallace. He is taking away minutes from Wallace. His play should have no affect on Tyrus's role on this team.

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

thats the point I can't figure out

Tyrus should be taking mins from Joe Smith, Noc, AG ... not Noah

by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 24, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's what I thought would happen

It's not though. Remember, Tyrus started the season as the starting PF. Joe Smith was inserted as a starter to boost early production that Skiles found lacking. It was lacking.

With Noc starting, Noah is the first off the bench to come get Smith at about 7 minute mark left in the 1st. If Wallace is in foul trouble and he's not guarding a gigantic center, then Noah subs for Wallace.

I usually drop everything to watch the game closely when Noah and Thomas are on the floor together at the 4 and 5. Skiles showed us this once. Boylan has done it a few times, but I don't think it was planned. It was just what he had to do based on the players available to him, how the front court was matching up, and if Smith or Wallace were in foul trouble. If I recall correctly, I don't think we have seen Noah and Thomas at the 4 and 5 on the court together in the 2nd half. I believe they have all come in the 2nd quarter.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's what I don't understand

That's the case I've been making the entire time.. Tyrus and Joakim shouldn't be fighting for time because they are not even playing the same position!! There should be time for Tyrus to back up Smith and Noah to back up Wallace. With Noc getting some time in at SF and PF also (more SF with Deng out).

by Jaina on Jan 24, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

they are fighting for "big man"

of the small ball lineup.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sooo...

if Noah and Wallace were struggling then Tyrus would become the Center of the small ball lineup. If this is the case then there's no chance of Tyrus ever playing. I didnt realize only one person in the small ball lineup over 6'9" could play in that lineup.

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah b/c Noc is the PF usually

sorry, hate to be the bearer of the bad news, but that's why the small ball is so infuriating some times.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i've never seen

the lineup where tyrus is the tallest big man on the court for the bulls. I agree that tyrus minutes are be taken away from Noc. but do not agree that Noah is taking away his minutes. I've never seen this lineup that you are talking about:
C;Tyrus
PF: Noc

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

right, that's the point

tyrus is the last guy who would play the center. And Noah or Wallace (and TT if the other two got hurt) at 5, Noc at PF and three guards is the small ball lineup.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Smith would be at the 5

before Tyrus would be.

by Jaina on Jan 24, 2008 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't worry. It's not true.

With a smaller lineup earlier in the game (as previously pointed out), they did just fine (in fact, great!!!) with Nocioni, Thomas, Noah and Griffin. Don't buy bullshooter's bullshit.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 24, 2008 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wtf

that isn't small ball. I'm not saying they play small ball all the time either, but they have a habit of going to it in the second half to all their "shooters" on the court. sometimes it's even Noc and Deng at the 4 and 5. Quit being a dipshit tygger.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 1:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

(with this part at least). A lineup consisting of Griffin, Noc, Thomas, and Noah is not small ball.

by Jaina on Jan 24, 2008 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So it's not small-ball, but shooter ball?

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 24, 2008 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And small-ball philosophy...

...doesn't typically entail throwing it into the post to your third guard. They didn't go to small-ball last night. They went to the lineup that didn't make Boylan scared.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 24, 2008 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noc at the 5?

deng at the 4 are you serious? I need to pay attention to the game more

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's rare and saved

for extremely desperate situations. I think skiles ran that out a few times early in the season when guys were quiting and the bulls were down by big numbers in the second half.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

but

i thought Noah and Tyrus are fighting for "big man minutes" This is a rarest of rare cases that Tyrus is the "bigman".... So therefore Tyrus and Noah are not fighting for minutes. Now I'm confused, sorry its a slow Thrusday

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

only for the small ball lineup

that the coaches love to go to so often. Wow, am I speaking Russian?

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus

never has played the 5, not in small ball, big ball, basketball!!! In "small ball" Noah/Wallace/and even Smith are the big(s). So, therefore Noah and Tyrus are not competiting for minutes. In "big ball" yes, becasue Wallace and Noah are the 4 and 5 but in small ball Noc/Tyrus are the 4

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's wrong.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 24, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah he

needs alot of work, but he's still better than Griffin out there. Please tell me how Griffin outplays/outplayed Tyrus. Just because Tyrus gets the ball stripped once doesn't mean he should sit and be replaced by slomo. Ugh.

by goldengod on Jan 24, 2008 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I told you already

Griffin draws double teams in the post.
Thomas does not.

We can cite bad defense. It is a variable. But Griffin is better with his back to basket compared to Thomas. Thomas still needs a lot of work.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Um... Griffin took Thomas's minutes.

Notice the thread here?

For someone who does observing, that's a pretty shitty observation there.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 24, 2008 1:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Silly

Thomas has no minutes to take. He doesn't have any guaranteed burn. That honeymoon is over. He started the first few games of the season. That was his guaranteed minutes.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Silly

. . . that he has no minutes to take.

What part of the NBA do you observe, by the way?

by jpx7 on Jan 25, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Welcome to the party

Observe the parent comment of each reply. If it still doesn't make sense, ask some questions.

by NBA Observer on Jan 25, 2008 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Attempting a positive Wallace spin...

I've been thinking that there might be one realistic positive use to which the Bulls might put Wallace--that of mentor to Noah.

Alright, alright. Before you cough up your coffee, hear me out. I believe that Wallace does take his role as a mentor to disadvantaged youth quite seriously. I think it gives him a sense of higher purpose.

My guess is that Wallace's sense of mentorship was partly behind his taking the initiative to discipline Noah. I'm sure Wallace believed he was doing the right thing, not only for the integrity of the game (whatever that might mean), but also for Noah personally.

If Wallace can be led to see that Noah's on-court play has surpassed his own, maybe he can be convinced to assume a supportive role--including giving up his starting spot.

The undeniable truth is that his game is not what it used to be, and if he truly has foresight, he should jump at the opportunity to establish a new reputation as a coach/mentor who can raise the level a young player's play.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 11:44 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Case in point

David Harrison spinning baseline to get around Wallace for an easy dunk. But there was no dunk. Wallace has terrific ability to sell the offensive player that he is beat, but is really there to block the ball from behind.

Noah's reach and good hands can't be taught, but recovering defensively can.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That was definitely Big Ben's

play of the night.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sadly that's all Wallace can do anymore

once in a while block his own guy's shot, if his own guy sucks.

He can't roam as well as he used to, which used to be his strength.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

good point

What I have noticed in little that I have seen is that Wallace may a shot every once in a while but he isn't a consistant threat that the offense has to worry about. When he was with Det in his prime he made a difference when players drove even if he didn't get the block which I think is a sign of a good active defender.

by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 24, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He doesn't do this for Chicago

Ben Wallace still forces adjustments in shots. This isn't a measurable statistic as far as I know.

On offense, I think Detroit was just more fluid with more weapons to employ to supplement Ben's offensive game. He just passed, set screens, and would be the last man on the passing train for the dunk.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately that's wishful thinking on your part

If Wallace did all the things you claimed he still does then the team would be playing better defense with him on the court.

by Scotter on Jan 24, 2008 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

In my view

Our defensive breakdowns aren't occurring in the paint. They're actually occurring on the perimeter. Wallace may end up as the last man that looks bad, but defending the pick and roll and the pick and pop has been a real struggle this season for BG, Duhon, and Kirk. They haven't spaced well to limit the effectiveness of the screen and they're following the dribbling guard all the way out to the sideline.

Ben Wallace's defensive rebounding clearly has regressed. He'll still get taps, but there are many attempts he used to haul in by himself that he now struggles to corral. Last night even Jeff Foster, a good rebounder himself, was just out muscling Wallace for offensive boards.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

on the pick and roll

normally involves a big man who is setting the pick. BigBen is normally the guy responsible for the guard until the defensive guard can either get around or get through the pick. So he does have some responsibility in the pick and roll defense

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sometimes

Most teams running the pick and roll/pick and pop against us are using bigs that either shoot the three or have a 15-18' jump shot.

Ben Wallace doesn't guard this player. This would be Joe Smith's, Tyrus Thomas', or Joakim Noah's assignment. Sometimes it is Noc's assignment when he plays the 4.

Teams that have run this against us to get wins are NYK, TOR, MIL, ORL, SAS, LAC, and BOS. The one team we have defended the PnR/PnP well is Detroit. We're 3-0 against them this season.

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think

Pick n Roll is used for the big man
Spurs-Duncan
LAC- Kaman
Orl- Howard
NYK- Curry
Tor- Bosh
Those are all BW assignments

the Pick n Pop is for the big shooters
DET- R. Wallace

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The teams have interchangable parts

NYK: Curry and Randolph
TOR: Bosh and Bargnani
BOS: KG and Scalabrini
LAC: Kaman and Thomas
MIL: Yi and Bogut
DET: Wallace and McDyess/Maxiel
ORL: Howard and Lewis/Turkoglu
SAS: Duncan and Oberto

They rotate the screeners, but they will stick with what's working if it's effective.

by NBA Observer on Jan 25, 2008 8:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The guards are obviously not blameless,

but your explanation doesn't explain why the Bulls are over six pts/100poss better on defense with Wallace off the floor. The other big men are playing with the same guards and have significant;y better on court defensive ratings.

by Scotter on Jan 24, 2008 4:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Broken down

I don't have access to your data, but maybe you can parse it for comparison against Chicago wins and Chicago losses against the teams I cited.

by NBA Observer on Jan 25, 2008 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't get me wrong

I love Deng and Gordon (for the most part) but the Bulls looked like a better defensive team with those two guys out of the lineup. Then again, they were playing the Pacers, but no match-up can be taken for granted or lightly by this Bulls team. Last night, however, is another example of why I've felt the Bulls' core of Hinrich, Deng, and Gordon have been at least slightly overvalued over the years. When one or two of these guys have been out, the team doesn't seem to suffer that much. Someone else steps up and seems to compensate for that production - win or lose. That matching production is either because we have equal or greater talent backing these guys up, or neither starter or bench player are "that" good in the first place.

I though Thabo looked good last night - better than his box score. I'm wondering how much Kirk actually does benefit from playing with a big guard. I'm not going to try to over-emphasize his performance last night because he very well could lay a few eggs playing with Thabo going forward.

There is no reason why Noah should ever play less than Ben and I think Boylan wanted to say as much last night. You could hear his studdering and stammering as he tried to provide the diplomatic response on why Noah is playing in 4th quarters versus Ben.

by messwiththebull on Jan 24, 2008 12:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's hard to understate

the advantage of getting to guard Diener versus guarding Rush or Granger. It'll be even more evident when Thabo is on Jason Richardson instead of Kirk. Noc on Wallace might be a nightmare, but that is a whole other diary.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right.

We need to see a few more of these games where a Kirk gets the easier defensive assignment to know for sure that it's responsible for his improved offensive production. That will definitely be something to watch for in tomorrow's game.

Both Stacy and Kendall mentioned that Kirk is not really a post-up player, but that he can shoot over a smaller player...which made Diener about as good as it gets for Kirk.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't expect kirk to get 38

but 20 shouldn't be too much to ask.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 24, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd be

one happy girl if he got 20 a night.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We could close the conversation

about needing back court help if Kirk was getting 20 a night, Thabo was shutting down the opposing 2Guard, and BG was hitting for another 20.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yup

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Conventional wisdom, myths, and dogma

BG hitting for another 20, if we trade BG we will score less than 70 ppg, BG is the only one who will shoot with less than three minutes left, the sun goes around the earth, welcome to the 13th century.

If BG hits for 20+, that means he's getting 30-35 minutes a night. That would be fatal. After last night, surely we can dipense with the myth that BG's importance to the Bull's is critical.

The first priority is finding a spot at the end of the bench for Wallace. Priority 1A is finding a spot for BG right next to BW.

by hlac on Jan 24, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

the key for those three guys is consistency. thabo needs to hit his jumpers when he is open, kirk needs to take care of the ball all the time and make the right decisions while he is running the offense, and bg needs to be the finisher he has been his whole career. if that happens on a consistent basis, the bulls will do a lot better the second half of the season. thabo and kirk on defense is pretty fun to watch. good game from tyrus, too, i think he is the missing link for this team, hopefully he can regroup and take care of biz for the second half. that line up of kirk, thabo, noc, tt and noah was pretty exciting. play of the night had to be the behind the back pass from kirk to noah. funniest moment of the night was when noc hit a three to put them over a 100 points, and the cameras immediately cutting to a portly young man who looked very excited to be getting a free big mac. got it on the way home, no doubt

by Conor on Jan 24, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This tells you about Diener

Orlando gave up on him because of this. They looked at Jameer Nelson and Travis Diener and said "Our PGs are going to get abused".

by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2008 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pax on the Score

i just heard bits and pieces during my lunch, anything worthwhile or same stuff?

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 24, 2008 12:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Nice post Matt...

too bad you forgot to mention that Kirk is garbage

by Zac23 on Jan 24, 2008 12:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

So how's that

wrist feeling today Ben?

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

According to the trib

not so good. He wasn't practicing today. Neither was Joe Smith:

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/fullcourtpress/2008/01/gordon-misses-p.html

by KT on Jan 24, 2008 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Guess that means

more Thabo and Kirk. :-)

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kirk

in my opinion is in the top 8 point guards in the league. He normally has to guard the best Pg or Sg on the other team and we expect him to score 20 a night. I would be tired guarding the sometimes best player on that team night in night out and run the offense. Now with Thabo in the starting lineup kirk can relax and run the offense. All the more reasons Thabo should be starting.

by eross226 on Jan 24, 2008 1:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Kirk Hinrich is team Captain...

and people actually pontificate about what is wrong with these Chicago Bulls. Makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

by Zac23 on Jan 24, 2008 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just thinking, if the Bulls were compared to

Capitol Hill, Griffin and Wallace would have to be the Bush and Cheney of the team who get money and power (to call votes) through no discernable talents of their own. Griffin and Wallace need to be impeached.

by philosoball on Jan 24, 2008 2:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I blame my Bruce Kimm comment

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 2:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bench Du

Duhon is not a starter period. Since ascending to the starting lineup, he has been awful and proven that he has no business starting. If the team is convinced that BG should come off the bench, then there is no reason why Thabo should not start and play real minutes. Duhon and Wallace on the floor is like playing 3 on 5 on the offensive end as neither can score. Duhon plays good D for a midget, but he cannot stop anyone of normal NBA size.

Thabo is a kid (in NBA terms) and has had some confidence issues, but you can see that he can really hoop in his recent run. He's going to have nights when he shoots a bad percentage, but they have to let him play through that. Duhon is not going to magically grow 4 inches or learn to shoot. He is capped out as backup PG. Every time he takes the floor I want to punch Boylan in the face.

by Stay Chisel on Jan 24, 2008 2:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

First the Resurrection, now Capital Hill

I think Matt's cross-sporting has opened the flood gates.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 2:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Ach, Matt, you beat me to it...

and I neglected to link. F***!

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wanted to finally win

the much coveted "Alec Award of the Day".

by philosoball on Jan 24, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK. Fine.

Speaking of impeachment...Matt used to actually censor my political posts.

I decry the arbitrary application of the censorship criteria that permitted you to sneak this one through. Let me just say, if this blog was in Chinese, Matt would be Mao.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I say, let a thousand flowers bloom...

by philosoball on Jan 24, 2008 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

too bad I missed the political posts

it was so much unfun reading the rants about Spencer Hawes around draft time.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 24, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, well, you're right.

You didn't miss much.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lets not get too excited

we did just play the Pacers. One good game by Hinrich doesn't make up for a terrible season. BG becomes the scapegoat when Hinrich should have been on the bench a long time ago. A backcourt of Hinrich and Sefolosha is not going to cut it. Don't get me wrong, Sefolosha plays great D, and his offense is improving, but when you're feeding Ben Wallace in the post, those three would struggle to put up 25 points COMBINED(well at least consistently). How many more nights is Hinrich gonna put up 38 points?(he won't be playing against Travis Diener every night) I would be happy getting 15/game with 40% shooting cause God knows he cant make close to half his shots on a given night. BG might disappear once in a while but thats because they double team him every game, opposing teams game plans are to shut Gordon down, they would love guys like Hinrich and Duhon and Sefolosha to shoot deep jump shots all game.

by alee7805 on Jan 24, 2008 3:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like its a good thing Kirk and Thabo

play well together - I just was reading about BG having an MRI on his wrist and is planning to consult a specialist (which doesn't sound like your garden variety one-game-out sprain), and JamesOn needing thumb surgery. Wonder if the thumb injury is from Godfather Ben Wallace "explaining" that Bulls do not pee in public? Good thing we've got the beloved A-Drain to help out.

Here are the links:

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NBA&id=1043&line=9 2112&spln=1

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/curry_recalled_080124.html?rss=true

"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Jan 24, 2008 5:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

When he hurt

his wrist that night he kept rubbing it. I wondered then how bad it was. I hope the MRI doesn't show anything and he just needs to rest it a few days.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 6:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not that this is a News Flash

to anyone here, but KC Johnson was just on Chicago Tribune Live and he as much as came right out and said he can't say anything negative about the players because he has to go in and face them in the locker room every day.

Yeah, there's an intrepid reporter for ya.

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 5:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

That is part of the reason this blog is so popular

The beat reporters have become a vehicle for team marketing and/or they lack basketball knowledge. There is more intelligent basketball information on this string than from all the media combined for a year.

by chgobr on Jan 24, 2008 6:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's a stretch.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 6:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

heh

agreed.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 24, 2008 6:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Um

while he hasn't ripped a player, he's been less than glowing to several like TT.

by KT on Jan 24, 2008 7:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Definitely more honesty here

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 24, 2008 7:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

mmmm, more

like biased opinion.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 24, 2008 8:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

speak

for yourself. :)

by alec on Jan 24, 2008 8:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I always do.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 25, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

There's plenty to complain about but

let's give credit for a few things:

Paxson was able to build a young core (Thabo, Tyrus, Joakim) concurrent with building a young contender, one that was the favorite to win the Eastern Conference. And this new core arguably has more upside than the existing core and seems (key word) to address holes in the roster, rather than creating a log-jam. A 2,4/3, and a 5. They should fit well with the 1/2, 1/2, 3 the team already has established.
Boylan is playing the young guys, and probably because he realizes it gives the team the best chance to win. Noah and Thabo have been getting serious burn. Boylan's apparent commitment probably puts Noah in the ROY race and salvages/saves Thabo's career with the Bulls. And it's inevitable that Tyrus gets his shot, hopefully now with Deng out. Tyrus' development will be the most interesting. If he's clearly not going to be a 4, rather becoming a 3/4 like a Marion, Kirilenko, Josh Smith, it could allow for Deng to be dealt for a stud 4, or to select a stud 4.

by messwiththebull on Jan 24, 2008 10:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Indiana lost!

If NJ loses tonight also, we're only a half game out of 8th. Maybe.. just maybe we can pull things together. Won't get my hopes up though...

by Jaina on Jan 24, 2008 10:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Good or Bad

Good because we can make the playoffs.

Bad because do we even want to make the playoffs with the way we're playing knowing we need roster changes.

I can't believe NJ lost last night. I turned off the game at the end of the 3rd quarter after NJ weathered the hack-a-Boone and actually turned that into their benefit. But opening the 4th with 22 unanswered points is just pathetic.

Vince Carter isn't even half man, half a season anymore. He looked like he was shaving points last night.

by NBA Observer on Jan 25, 2008 8:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I hate the Nets

and Vince Carter.

I have hope for this season in that maybe we can get it together a bit. We still have stuff to fix, that's clear. But I'd love more to see us make a little run into the playoffs than stay at mediocrity where we still won't have a good pick and really show what a waste this season really is.

by Jaina on Jan 25, 2008 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

by alec on Jan 25, 2008 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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