Noc and Thabo for Nets Garbage?

by Sports2 on Jan 23, 2008 8:21 AM CST

[From the diaries. This scenario isn't very plausible since it's such a bad deal from the Bulls standpoint, but it's better than hearing that Nocioni's untouchable. -Matt]

Can you say "Salary dump"?

According to league sources, the Bulls have discussed sending rugged forward Andres Nocioni and second-year guard Thabo Sefolosha to the Nets for Bostjan Nachbar, Marcus Williams, Antoine Wright and Jamaal Magloire. There might be other parts in the proposed deal.
The Bulls have been talking to several teams. Their first choice would be to use Nocioni in a package for Memphis big man Pau Gasol, but they're keeping their options open. The Nets, who lost in Sacramento Tuesday night, 128-94, were rebuffed in their advances for Gasol.
If the Bulls-Nets trade goes through, it will clear money for Chicago and put the Nets over the luxury-tax threshold. The Nets have tried to avoid that, but Nocioni, who signed a five-year $37.5 million deal over the summer, would give them a needed dimension.

I'm not at all averse to moving Noc and in the grand scheme of things he's overpaid, but I'm not seeing much purpose to this deal when it comes to any sort of long range plan, short of a complete blow up of the team.

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This doesn't sound like a deal

proposed by the bulls.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 23, 2008 8:31 AM CST 0 recs

This has to be internet rumors

First, it doesn't even work as proposed in the trade machine.

Second, if MANAGEMENT does think Noce is overpaid then a salary dump make sense if they don't see him in there long term plans, but don't give away two tradeable assets for another small gaurd and trash.

Finally, if for some reason this trade goes down. It would have to be part of a bigger deal because standing alone this trade would confuse the crap out of me.

by Jesse07 on Jan 23, 2008 8:45 AM CST 0 recs

Hoopshype

http://www.hoopshype.com/rumors.htm

by Jesse07 on Jan 23, 2008 8:46 AM CST up 0 recs

eh?

Hoopshype just aggregates the rumors. The source is the Bergen Record. Which I've never heard of it outside of Nets coverage, but I'm sure it does get printed in dead-tree form somewhere.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 8:59 AM CST up 0 recs

The Bulls would be giving up the two best players

And off the top of my head, I can't think of anytime that's ever turned out well for a team.

"I took a couple of bad shots," Gordon said

by BNeL21 on Jan 23, 2008 8:48 AM CST 0 recs

Can't see the Nets doing this either.

Isn't Marcus Williams supposed to be the heir apparent to Kidd?

by upther on Jan 23, 2008 8:50 AM CST 0 recs

Marcus Williams makes is the heir apparent?

He appears to have regressed from last year, looks fat to me, and is a positively awful shooter.

by Sports2 on Jan 23, 2008 9:10 AM CST up 0 recs

Body Fat was already a red flag

for him coming out of UConn. But even so, he surprised people at the pre-draft camp with his court speed and agility. Also, he was the consensus best passer in that draft.

Trying to squeeze in a little playing time between injuries on the one hand and playing behind Kidd on the other (Hall of Fame lock Kidd is averaging 37 minutes, exactly his career average), it's pretty hard to judge his progress, if any.

What gives this idea credence is that the Bulls really have two ways they can go in the trade market. One is to go for an established guy (Gasol, in this example), who is unhappy, and costs his small market team too much money while simultaneously having somehow alienated the home fans.

Going for a guy like Williams is the other trade avenue open to the Bulls. Williams is a supposed high talent (which the Bulls desperately need) who has been buried behind a superstar, which might lead to his being available at somewhat below his true value.

The biggest question about this trade is whether Williams is a better "pure" point guard than Duhon. It's a big risk. We just don't have enough data to make an absolute assessment. Is his shooting really as bad as Duhon's?

If he's not a huge upgrade over what we have, it makes no sense to give up our best bargaining chip to get him...and make no mistake, in this era of "energy," Nocioni is the one player on our roster that every GM salivates for.

He's the one player other GM's believe might be the catalyst to turn their underperforming club into the upper echelon team they believe their collective talent implies.

So what if he hasn't done it for the Bulls. I'm pretty sure around the league the Bulls are considered too dysfunctional for any one, two or even three players to significantly impact.

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 9:47 AM CST up 0 recs

He didn't measure well

Maybe it appears to translate better on the court, but in measurement he was an order of magnitude below other PGs, even other PGs with his basic build, in pretty much every category.

Add to that a fairly woeful display of shooting so far, and I'm really not seeing the attraction.

As a prospect, he's right around Frank Williams or Mateen Cleeves in my book. He's a heck of a lot closer to them than a guy he was strangely compared to- Deron Williams, who's a heck of an athlete with a chisled body and a great head on top of it. I can't think of ANY successful (in the NBA) guys with his build, skillset and mindset. Add poor shooting, questionable desire and conditioning, and felony charges, and he's got major issues. He's the sort of guy who merits a second round pick, if that, a year and a half in the league.

I don't disagree with the idea that getting a sleeper that's not being used on another team (at the expense of one of our "ready to contribute" guys is something the Bulls should look at.

But this dude is absolute garbage as a prospect, and at the end of the day, the "can the guy play" issue trumps the "is this the right kind of trade" issue.

For a trade that might make some pretty good sense, I heard last night that Ric Bucher was saying the Bulls and Blazers might be talking trade. One guy I'd love to get my hands on would be Rudy Fernandez, who the Blazers picked 24th last year I think, and who's scoring 20ppg in the ACB Spanish league. He's 6'5"/6'6", can fill it up, and has a heck of a handle. Think Jamal Crawford or Larry Hughes, but with a very good basketball IQ instead of a crummy one.

He's not going to do the Blazers anything with Brandon Roy there, and the Blazers might be the sort of team who would take a guy we don't want to pay (Gordon?) and/or we regret paying (Wallace).

Sorry for the tangent, but the point is, above all the Bulls need a hit. Marcus Williams and those other clowns aren't.

by Sports2 on Jan 23, 2008 10:13 AM CST up 0 recs

Maybe this report from Jonathan Givony

will jog your memory about Marcus Williams. He was an elite prospect in many people's eyes. The fact that he hasn't gotten a lot of playing time behind Kidd shouldn't be held too hard against him.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/West-Coast-Swing-Marcus-Williams,-Jay-Williams,-D.J.-Strawberry- 1321/

But I think we agree that the Bulls need to take a significant risk if they want to escape thier current doldrums. Maybe taht risk is for a guy like Fernandez. I know the euro-press has loved him for a cuople of years.

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 10:36 AM CST up 0 recs

Yep, we agree, just not on M Will

You do realize that article talking him up was based on a workout against a guy who is effectively crippled, right? Jay Williams. And that, if you scroll through the article to the review on JWill, he gets a pretty glowing review too that concludes by saying he was definitely ready to play backup PG minutes in the NBA?

In short, he got a great review because he was playing against poor competition.

by Sports2 on Jan 23, 2008 11:39 AM CST up 0 recs

Yes, I realize that, but I do tend to trust Givony

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 11:45 AM CST up 0 recs

I like the idea of Gordon for Rudy Fernandez.

That would give us a potential back court of 6'6" Fernandez and 6'7" Sefolosha. I'm sure part of the appeal is that I'm so sick and tired of our sub-par ball handling midget back court.

With Fernandez on board, it would make sense to go after his Spanish national team mate Pau Gasol. This would give the Bulls a revised, and I believe, much-upgraded core.

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 11:20 AM CST up 0 recs

gah

he hasn't even played an NBA game yet.

Besides, Gordon is an upcoming restricted FA, Portland would rather have the guy who's yet to start his rookie contract, considering all the young guys they have to pay.

And I don't get why having Fernandez/Thabo is great shakes, while Portland can't fit Fernandez/Roy together.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 11:29 AM CST up 0 recs

What's the deal that Bucher

was actually talking about?

I wouldn't mind getting Fernandez and Gasol. I'm sure you've read plenty about Rudy. I remember reading comments out of europe where they were laughing at us for how low we kept putting him in our mock drafts.

Also, if he's the gateway to Gasol, I'd say it warrents a little extra risk to get him.

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 11:38 AM CST up 0 recs

Beats me

I couldn't find a link to it... I think he must have mentioned something on TV. :|

by Sports2 on Jan 23, 2008 12:11 PM CST up 0 recs

Garbage

It works this way, but any way you look at this trade, it's garbage. I can't even see how the expiring contracts would really help us facilitate a trade more than Noc and Thabo would.

"I took a couple of bad shots," Gordon said

by BNeL21 on Jan 23, 2008 8:55 AM CST 0 recs

only if it was all at once

Bulls can't turn around and trade these expiring deals before the deadline anyway, unless they're only being dealt by themselves.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 9:01 AM CST up 0 recs

Right

So it would need to be a three-way deal, Maybe.... http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=498~1723~3039~2801~2377~2456~3028~3032~996 ~2794&teams=29~29~4~29~29~17~17~29~4~17&te=&cash=

"I took a couple of bad shots," Gordon said

by BNeL21 on Jan 23, 2008 9:07 AM CST up 0 recs

Whoops

Here's the link, whoops

"I took a couple of bad shots," Gordon said

by BNeL21 on Jan 23, 2008 9:09 AM CST up 0 recs

Here's a follow-up blog post

from the reporter:

http://njmg.typepad.com/zzone/2008/01/bull-market.html

Not much additional info, though.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 9:08 AM CST 0 recs

I don't mind giving up on Sefolosha

if it means getting out from under Nocioni's contract. It frees up time for Thomas and Noah, and there's a little more flexibility with contract (and sign and trade) negotiations.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 23, 2008 9:25 AM CST 0 recs

Noc is my favorite Bull....

Why trade the only guy who seems to really care and play hard every night???? I don't like this at all.

by SlickRick76 on Jan 23, 2008 9:36 AM CST up 0 recs

Noah isn't getting traded

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 23, 2008 9:37 AM CST up 0 recs

ha

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 23, 2008 9:44 AM CST up 0 recs

in theory, sure

I just want more for those two than expiring deals.

If this was done to get out of Wallace's contract, I'd be more receptive.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 9:47 AM CST up 0 recs

I dunno

I had an email exchange with Sam last season about trying to fleece another team with Nocioni's grit, and he just blasted the guy's trade value. I'm not sure if there's a significantly better Noc-centric deal to be made.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 23, 2008 10:06 AM CST up 0 recs

That surprises me, but Sam

is in a postion to hear stuff, and I think he does listen well. If he's right, that's really bad for any Bulls trade scenario. It just means Pax screwed up worse than we even imagined when he gave Noc the big contract.

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 10:21 AM CST up 0 recs

Funny

I asked Smith about a trade for Gasol and JCN with Noc and Deng and he said it was too much to give up.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 23, 2008 10:26 AM CST up 0 recs

right

if he had no value last year, imagine his value with 4 more years on his contract. The Noc contract was so dumb if Pax is truly hamstrung by the luxury tax. argh.

I think teams still can believe in 'tough guy' acquisitions though, hopefully. If not now then in the offseason when Noc's BYC status goes away.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 10:29 AM CST up 0 recs

here we go again

with the Noc contract crying again...

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 23, 2008 10:45 AM CST up 0 recs

it's relevant

I don't get how it's not a big deal that a long-term committment to this guy not only blocks young players but hurts trade flexibility.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 11:06 AM CST up 0 recs

Joe Smith is the actual block

Noc is happy backing up, whether it's TT or Smith. And Noc does a good job as a backup.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 23, 2008 11:11 AM CST up 0 recs

well one problem

is that Noc's role as backup chucker (which he is good at, granted) is now taken by Ben Gordon.

and while Noc may be happy with reduced minutes, they're paying him the same whether he plays 20 or 35. I'd rather have the shorter/cheaper obligation to Smith. Smith's also better at basketball.

Smith could (should) be dealt soon though, and it's a similar solution. I wouldn't say he's more of a block.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 11:21 AM CST up 0 recs

...and Noc's other role,

to be an instant injection of intensity, should be filled by Hirich off the bench. I agree that Noc is a duplication, at a price we can't afford...or Hinrich is a duplication at t price we can't afford...or Ben Gordon is a duplication at a price we soon won't be able to afford.

At least one of them, and probably two, have got to go.

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 11:28 AM CST up 0 recs

wow

Firstly, "instant injection of intensity" is nice use of alliteration but nothing more. And even if it is a desireable trait, Hinrich doesn't do anything instant or intense.

Hinrich's not going to the bench if he hasn't already. He's a $10m/year point guard, which means starter.

I don't like pigeonholing guys as bench players as some marketable skill anyway (if nobody's figured that out given my stance on Gordon), it's a place for players who just aren't that good, especially on a team this bad.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 11:35 AM CST up 0 recs

I'm sure you're right about the actuality.

However, ideally, Hinrich is a classic bench player. He gives you the flexibility of being able to play multiple positions; he's an above average defender, if your current game need is for a back court stopper; and he does provide intensity, if the on-court team is not getting in the face of the opposition.

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 11:43 AM CST up 0 recs

ideally

Hinrich starts at point guard, only plays point guard, and gets back to, or improves on last season's production.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 23, 2008 11:45 AM CST up 0 recs

He's either an above-average back-up

or an average starter. Yes, he was once considered for the Olympic team, so he's not plain bad...but neither can it be sensibly argued that he's currently in the team USA point guard mix.

However, if what you're suggesting is that the team has more pressing needs, I agree with you.

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 11:57 AM CST up 0 recs

actually

Hinrich was an above average point guard (19.9 PER in 06-07) before he caught the Mopes this season.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 23, 2008 12:05 PM CST up 0 recs

he's in-between

he was playing above his head last season, but he's not as bad as he's showing this season

06-07 = above-average
+
07-08 = belove-average
=
average player

news of the day right there!

by ScottieCartwright on Jan 23, 2008 12:24 PM CST up 0 recs

you're kidding, right?

There's a tongue in cheek face their somewhere, right? You'd dump Sefo? Sign and trade for whom?

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 23, 2008 10:11 AM CST up 0 recs

nope

I have no idea who the Bulls would consider trading Gordon or Deng for in the offseason, but I think Sefolosha's defensive specialist role can be filled with a cheap veteran, or a more dynamic big guard via a Gordon/Deng trade. Maggette could be signed in the offseason too.

I really don't mind giving up on Sefolosha. He was supposed to be ready to contribute as a defender, and efficient-but-not-prolific offensive player. I don't take it as much of a loss, and the 5 year mistake gets fixed.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 23, 2008 10:30 AM CST up 0 recs

I'm with ya on Sefolosha

he's had a few good games, but like you said he was the one who was supposedly the ready-made pro, and all we've seen is someone who can't shoot and can't handle getting yelled at.

Maybe I'm like Pax and over-value these guys, but I do think other teams would be interested. Just keep reminding them that Phoenix likes him and they never ever make a personnel mistake.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 10:33 AM CST up 0 recs

Why do I always see the opposite from you guys?

To me Thabo has put together a string of more consistent games than anything TT has done. I don't think it is far-fetched for Thabo to average 16/5/5/ and a couple of steals. And maybe with a little confidence, he can handle the yelling.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 23, 2008 10:38 AM CST up 0 recs

maybe because I have no idea what

'consistent' means. Thabo had a bad outing against the Griz, so he's no longer consistent, I guess?

See the forest for the trees, man: Thabo's 23 and has produced two sub-10 PERs. Tyrus is 21 and had PERs of 14.9 and 13.4(not that such a number is great). Yes, Thabo's PER doesn't show that he is a better defender (although I'll always take the shotblocker over the 'stopper') but he has to get a lot better offensively to be a rotation player.

If you just want to talk ppg, right now per-40 he's at 11/8/3, so 16/5/5 seems a ways away.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 11:04 AM CST up 0 recs

As the guy who advocates

for more minutes equals more production I would think you would weight Thabo's recent production as a starter with more gravity since he's actually produced as a starter, unlike some other bulls.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 23, 2008 11:09 AM CST up 0 recs

You know what's ridiculous?

In his past six games, he's done almost exactly what Thomas did in his first six games. Two very good games, one stinker and a few "whatever" games. Thabo's proven himself to you, but Tyrus hasn't. I love the double standard.

Wow. I just "crunched the numbers," and they're very, very similar. You won't believe it because you don't want to, but you won't look for yourself. Stay in your hole of ignorance.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 23, 2008 11:45 AM CST up 0 recs

Per 36 minute comparisons

A B
FG% 45.8 46
Pts 11.2 11.3
Reb 7.1 8.5
Ast 3.3 1.8
TO 2.1 1.8
Stl 2.1 1.2
Fou l 3.4 4.5
Blk 0 1.7

A actually got 29.5 mpg and B got 26.8 mpg. Quick, which won has proven himself and which one has blown his chance?

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 23, 2008 12:06 PM CST up 0 recs

Nice grammatical error there.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 23, 2008 12:07 PM CST up 0 recs

Are those the numbers as starters?

I wasn't the guy that benched TT; I hope he gets another chance to start. All I've said is that he hasn't shown enough since he's been coming off of the bench to be given another chance to start right now. Mostly this is based on the level at which Smith and Noc have played. I don't know why you've got your panties all in a bunch. Thabo is clearly producing better than Duhon. That's why he should start over Duhon.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 23, 2008 2:50 PM CST up 0 recs

This is one I actually don't get either.

I'm tired of giving away talent that couldn't handle being yelled at.

by Scotter on Jan 23, 2008 11:26 AM CST up 0 recs

I don't want Thabo given away

and not in this deal just to pawn off Noc. but I don't view him as a coveted talent either. It'd be different if he produced in the limited time he's recieved so far.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 11:31 AM CST up 0 recs

This seems to be somewhat remedied.

That is, with a different coach.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 23, 2008 11:47 AM CST up 0 recs

This also

sounds like a screen to get Memphis more interested in making the Gasol trade now. Why would we "dump" our current best player in Noc for a bunch of awful guys?

I could see us dumping Cap'n Kirk, but not Noc....I think Pax and co want to light a fire in Memphis to make the Gasol for Noc and parts trade.....and with Memphis taking it easy despite losing, Chicago wants to force the issue before our season is completely over.

I'd hate to see Noc go, but I do think Gasol is a vital piece of what we're missing. Having him with Wallace/Smith/Noah/Tyrus will give us a formiddable frontcourt, and I think at least Gordon's coming back into form of late, so our guards aren't awful (come back to play Kirk, remember that at one point for 4 years in the league you were pretty good)....

by majoyenrac on Jan 23, 2008 10:05 AM CST 0 recs

LOL

I don't think sending the message that the guy we're dangling as a prinipal for their best player is a guy we'd dump for Jamaal Magloire and Marcus Williams is going to make them more interested :)

By and large, I think Noc is slightly overpaid, but he's certainly not grossly unproductive salary (a la Wallace). Given that the Bulls appear to have really soured on Tyrus and Deng is a continual injury, I'm not sure he's a player we just want to dump. Again, I might for a guy that I thought was a really nice prospect might get it done, but I don't see a "vision for the future" when I see things like including talk of salary dumps and very marginal prospects.

by Sports2 on Jan 23, 2008 10:18 AM CST up 0 recs

It's a message that...

if they don't make a trade soon, we may trade to another team who would value his services and Memphis will miss out (since they seem to desire Noc, who would give them energy and help bring some fans to the seats with his hustle play from a team that often looks lax).

by majoyenrac on Jan 23, 2008 10:40 AM CST up 0 recs

Memphis doesn't believe the Bulls would

do that trade any more than we do.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 23, 2008 10:43 AM CST up 0 recs

don't like it

even though it's a salary dump, I still think you should try to get SOMETHING that slightly resembles talent in return

I'm all for trading Noce to get something back in return, but this one is a stinker.

Someone else who can't believe that the Gasol deal hangs on Paxson's unwillingness (stupidity) to not include Noce

by ScottieCartwright on Jan 23, 2008 10:12 AM CST 0 recs

Has to be part of a bigger trade

There is no one from that trade that could even start for the Bulls.

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 23, 2008 10:19 AM CST up 0 recs

I literally can't believe it

which is why I'm not that upset about that article.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 23, 2008 10:27 AM CST up 0 recs

I'd rather see

BG and TT go than Thabo and Noch. I hope this is not going to happen.

Yes, the game is on in Iowa.

by sue369 on Jan 23, 2008 10:46 AM CST 0 recs

Paxson better not make this trade

If he does than he better get a first round pick out of it. Why should a bulls fan believe in this turd, he won't even get a post player?

by armstrong2389 on Jan 23, 2008 11:02 AM CST 0 recs

Two things...

(1) Why in God's name would the Bulls give up Tyrus AND Noah for the Slouchy Spaniard? Gasol isn't that good. He really isn't. He has looked awful this season;

(2) How does the proposed NJ trade help the Bulls? The players we are getting in return are dregs. I don't get it.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 23, 2008 11:44 AM CST 0 recs

I was shocked by this proposal

It does remove salaries but who can we get better than Noc and Thabo in return? Nachbar and M Williams are garbage. I have to assume this is totally bogus or I will go insane.

by chgobr on Jan 23, 2008 12:31 PM CST up 0 recs

If that's your present state of mind,

I'd say it might not be a bad idea to get your therapist on speed dial, because if the Bulls lose to Indiana tonight, and begin to slide below .500 for the Boylan regime, there will be trades...and you might not like them all.

by alec on Jan 23, 2008 12:40 PM CST up 0 recs