Another problem with the Gordon 6th man experiment
It makes Chris Duhon a starter.
He's 4-20 from the field in this era of good feelings, and in 31 minutes against Orlando he scored one point.
It makes the times where he's out there with Ben Wallace seem self-defeating. And while we'd all like plenty of things to go different with Ben Wallace, he isn't going to the bench.
With the disastrous start that Hinrich had to start the year, it made Duhon's play seem better than it really was. He's still the same player he has been his whole career. A guy who should be a backup point, not a 3rd guard and never a starter.
Gordon's playing well too, but he did so against San Antonio in his final game as a starter. Could be he's just getting off of his usual bad start to a season. I don't think Gordon's a better player off the bench, and it's a stretching my sensibilities to think it was some sort of 'spark'.
But say it is, and then ask what's more important? Gordon 'finding himself' as a bench player? Or keeping Duhon out of the starting lineup?
If you believe both are necessary, then a trade is the best option. And hell if we're supposed to stomach the 'win now in the interim' edict, wouldn't an actual midseason trade for some guard help be a part of that?
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109 comments
Comments
I think a trade is needed.
Basically, if Duhon could score an efficient 15 ppg, it wouldn't be such a bad idea. I have little doubt that's what they were hoping Sefolosha could do.
by tyger1147 on Jan 1, 2008 11:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thabo
Of course that's a huge set of parenthesis. But no player got buried deeper and faster by Skiles than did Sefo. He was excellent in Europe over the summer, and very good in last year's playoffs. And he did shoot silly string at one of our more persistent bloggers.
It's been well stated that for the Bulls to take the improve we need more from Tyrus and Noah in terms of both play and burn. But that goes for Sefo, too.
No trade before we give Thabo a shot!
by Freethefro on Jan 2, 2008 7:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
pardon the typos
jeez.
by Freethefro on Jan 2, 2008 7:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thabo
So without Thabo playing big bench mins at Guard, Duhon has played ok, emphisis on ok. The problem is (fairly clear I think) that Duhon is not the type of player that will win you games and make Bulls a contender.
by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 2, 2008 8:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They should trade Thabo
It's not like he's posting these sub-10 PERs out of high school, he's going to be 24 in May.
I usually say that the 'big guard' problem isn't such a big deal, but trading Thabo isn't a big deal either, and they can't keep having Hinrich/Gordon/Duh playing all game while Thabo and Griffin are just wasting space.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Another Duhon stat
So sure, a trade is needed, but in the sense that you'd always like to have better players. To put it differently, I'm not at all sure the Bulls would be better off with Ricky Davis or Nate Robinson, each of whom could easily put up 15 points in a night.
--------
I think what's really being masked by the change is the improved play of Hinrich, who has 27 assists to 5 TOs since Boylan took over. It's only 3 games of course, so we'll see if that trend continues. I wonder if it's nothing, if it's due to Boylan, or even if it's due to some kind of problem these guys have with Gordon or vice versa.
by Sports2 on Jan 2, 2008 7:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well with all the whining of 'playing 4 on 5'
And I think we can safely let Hinrich run the team now.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 9:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bulls roster
by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 2, 2008 8:59 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
or the minutes shouldn't be determined
by hscs on Jan 2, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
don't trade for crap
I would like to see Noah and Thomas both get mins for sure at expense of PF Noc, Smith, Wallace and Gray. And if Bulls don't want Thabo then they should find a way eventually to get another guard so Duhon doesn't have to play so much and Deng doesn't get put at SG.
My complaint is if Bulls don't think they can play both Noah and Thomas then they need to make a move to get a better PF or SG that would get major mins (assumption here is that Kirk, Deng, Wallace is core for this season) and remove this "depth" of players
by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 2, 2008 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Duhon is too easy
The last thing asked of Chris Duhon is to score. His role on this team has always been to slow the opposing offense, hit open three point attempts, and distribute the basketball. If there is one guy that has performed his role this season it is Chris Duhon. Is it a contract year again already?
The Magic are better on the road than at home and we pretty much could have taken the 12/31 game. We cheated down again off three point shooters when it wasn't necessary and it cost us the game.
We did see how vital Ben Wallace is to winning in the the East. If your front court cannot muscle Dwight Howard on the low block you don't stand a chance against the Magic. Howard would have had 10 dunks if Ben Wallace didn't play.
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 9:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
so is it a surprise that the worst offense
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Like it or not
In the end, bitch and moan when Ben Wallace doesn't do the things we ask him to do, that we know he can do. Ditto for Chris Duhon.
This roster is not, nor was it, constructed to out score opponents. It's designed to slow opponents, convert mistakes into buckets, and force the opponent to play our pace and not their pace.
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Offensively Du has been horrible.
My question isn't that we need an improvement but who is this going to be? Bibby comes to mind but that would be quite a stretch. I'm open to suggestions.
by chgobr on Jan 2, 2008 9:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Bibby
I'd rather have Hinrich. No team really can have both at their present salaries.
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why get another PG anyway?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agree!
by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 2, 2008 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't quite understand
As far as the original comment on Gordon, I like Gordon's offensive ability, but he he still is a average, to below average ball handler and forces way too many shots. Not to mention a below aberage defender. I wish more of the Bulls players ( deng, not Noc ) had Gordon's fearlessness down the stretch. I can't believe Deng could not wait to pass the ball with Turkoglu guarding him. Take it to the hole on him before he does on you Deng!
Gordon is playing starter minutes, does it really matter that he's not involved in the early stages of the game? The 90's Bulls always started the game feeding Bill Cartwright but that never lasted past the initial 5 minutes. It was always Michael/Scottie when it came to crunch time.
by RogersPark Kris on Jan 2, 2008 9:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
you need to read the BaB archives
by hscs on Jan 2, 2008 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cut Du's time by half
by cranscape on Jan 2, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
One bad game or really one bad play
Plus, if Du reverts back to mediocre play, it should open up time for Thabo. Unfortunately, BG's inability to handle the ball necessitate Du playing at least 20 min/game.
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 9:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
"reverts back to mediocre play"?
by tyger1147 on Jan 2, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's no hope
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 10:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As in...
by tyger1147 on Jan 2, 2008 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no shit
2004-05: 9.87
2005-06: 12.95
2006-07: 11.94
2007-08: 10.80
Even if you give him credit for defense, it's actually not-quite mediocre.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why Duhon is in, especially with BG.
BG 2.9 12.5
Hinrich 7.5 15.7
Duhon 10.1 20.5
82games.com
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I didn't even mention it in the post, I'm looking at the forest here, the 'Duhon still sucks' forest.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"BG's inability to handle the ball"
Yes, Duhon has a supremely higher assist rate, I'm just pointing out that the Gordon turnovers may be still sad to watch but there's been fewer of them this season.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's had fewer turnovers
by RogersPark Kris on Jan 2, 2008 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
can't really track that
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
very reasonable
by hscs on Jan 2, 2008 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon is a poor ball handler/passer
But go ahead, stick to being a pompous insult spewing asshole.
by RogersPark Kris on Jan 2, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
From now on
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
(in my head, I mean)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Matt, I know you hate "cross-sporting,"
I know you're trying to be a kinder, gentler blogger in 2008 (although, based on the evidence, the same can't, I suppose, be said about hscs), and I realize it's hard to break old habits, but all RPK is saying is that Ben's secondary skills (ball-handling, passing, probably defense, too) seem to go down when the pressure goes up.
Now, I can't say I particularly condone RPK's carpet-bombing retaliation to your response, but his point is certainly not frivolous. Pressure affects different players differently. What's the big deal?
by alec on Jan 2, 2008 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
can't let it pass (pun?)
I can't just assume that as truth.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
82games.com sides with Matt:
Passing rating 5.4
'Hands' rating 17.1
http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI3E.HTM
Both higher than non-"crunch time"
(although I still don't like their definition of crunch time)
by wjb1492 on Jan 2, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the big deal is
by hscs on Jan 2, 2008 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Deng's excuse
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
screw the Swiss Willie Green
by hscs on Jan 2, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sounds good to me
by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 2, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, Noc is probably
by alec on Jan 2, 2008 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You want Noc playing as well as he can
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Makes sense
by alec on Jan 2, 2008 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
T2 at SF
Like Stacey King has been saying during broadcasts, that high screener if it's Noc or T2 or Wallace needs to flash into the paint every now and then to pull the defender off Gordon. If the defender stays with Gordon it should create the lane for a lob pass.
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What about defense
by piccolomair on Jan 2, 2008 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't say they were worse.
by tyger1147 on Jan 2, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Gordon's quote about Boylan
God and Matt know I am normally loathe to read more meaning into a situation than appears on the surface, but just this once I'll attempt to slip slightly beneath.
Here's what I think really happened in the private meeting between Boylan and Gordon. Boylan pulled him aside and said, "Listen, Ben, I know this is a contract year for you, and you want to show the world you have a complete game. You want to show you can take away the perimeter from the big shooting guards; you want to showcase your set-up skills, your no-look, behind-the-back passes; and you want to prove you can play the point, bring the ball up court, beat the press...but you know what?--All I care about is that you score. I want you to just fire at will. And to prove I mean it, I'm going to let Duhon and Kirk worry about defending, slowing down and throwing off the opposing guards at the start of the game. Once those guys have established a defensive structure, I'll bring you in to demoralize them with your offense."
So the `pressure' that Boylan took off Ben was really the pressure Ben was putting on himself to play outside of his comfort zone.
The beneficent by-product of this plan is that it has coincidentally taken the pressure off Kirk to defend both guard spots simultaneously. Now, he can leave one player in the capable Duhon's defensive hands, and only worry about his assignment. Consequently, Kirk is playing more relaxed, too, and as a result, his natural game is coming Back to him.
Nice job, Boylan.
by alec on Jan 2, 2008 10:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Smiles
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Will he be smiling
by Option27 on Jan 2, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or would he be smiling
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If by stuck on the bench
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
by piccolomair on Jan 2, 2008 4:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you hit the nail on the head.
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Gordon seems
But can't it be done in the starting lineup? You say "defending, slowing down and throwing off" to start the game, but I read 'stay close or fall behind'.
I just don't get the point in benching a better player just to have him go against a 2nd unit. Why don't the Celtics sit Paul Pierce? He'd be deadly! The Bulls don't have enough weapons to be so devious in their deployment.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You say "better player,"
by alec on Jan 2, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Gordon's better than 'situational'
But for a team that needs offense, play the situational offense guy.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if you need offense
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OT : Yi Jianlian
by Option27 on Jan 2, 2008 10:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Option27 you have been consistent
by chgobr on Jan 2, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He sure would look alright playing the 4
by Option27 on Jan 2, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and he's stuck on a team with so many issues
by KT on Jan 2, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
tells ya what
Or, if they start Duhon for 1 posession (tank the jump ball so it's a defensive one) before bringing in Gordon. That way we successfully tricked Gordon into 'bench player mode' with minimal damage to the team.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 10:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
trade machinesturbation
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i hate the idea of trading away noah
by hscs on Jan 2, 2008 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it'll be him or Tyrus
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
gah, but your point remains
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 11:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If you get JCN back
by bullshooter on Jan 2, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It would have to be Tyrus traded
Remember we will need a replacement for Wallace eventually and I don't want Gasol to be his replacement or Tyrus.
Someone that plays like Wallace...Noah
by Option27 on Jan 2, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the Bulls would mind
by alec on Jan 2, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
unfortunately
(it sounded better in my head)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, well, that's not gonna get picked up
by alec on Jan 2, 2008 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pax would have drafted Yi over Noah
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
would make Gray fans happy
Definitely changes the team, not sure for better or not.
Does seem like a shame that the Bulls haven't been able to use all these draft choices and depth to pull off something that is really in their favor
by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 2, 2008 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Thomas see 30 mpg then?
by tyger1147 on Jan 2, 2008 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
eh, he'd do alright
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I love Gasol comments...
by Jesse07 on Jan 2, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How many jumpballs do they win?
by tyger1147 on Jan 2, 2008 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
All right, Charlotte's in town
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 11:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
easier said than done
by davebino on Jan 2, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
we have this now
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 4:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Considering Outlaw is in his 5th year
I'm among the people who'd like to see Ty get a little more (and more consistent) playing time, but it's not like the kid doesn't have a lot of years left to do incredible things.
by wjb1492 on Jan 2, 2008 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Some of you
by sue369 on Jan 2, 2008 3:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but the thing is
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2008 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me re-read
by sue369 on Jan 2, 2008 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're funny.
by tyger1147 on Jan 2, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I'm feeling really relaxed lately,
It may be fleeting or illusory, but after the misery of the first several weeks of the season I'm willing to ride the "basketball is fun" wave as long as it lasts.
by wjb1492 on Jan 2, 2008 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like the
by sue369 on Jan 2, 2008 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's all about entertainment
by KT on Jan 2, 2008 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I still can't believe you like Hinrich.
Double standards make life more interesting, though, I guess.
by tyger1147 on Jan 2, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Guess what?
by sue369 on Jan 2, 2008 4:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now you're hilarious!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 2, 2008 4:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You know, watching the other day
And honestly, I'm not sure anyone can ever even aspire to the "Sheed reaction."
by wjb1492 on Jan 2, 2008 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
Seriously, you got me there. Noc has the arm-waving, nostril-flaring, wild-eyed run at the ref down perfectly.
by wjb1492 on Jan 2, 2008 4:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
pouting to losing relativity?
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 4:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
truthiness at hand
by NBA Observer on Jan 2, 2008 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whining continued...
by davebino on Jan 2, 2008 4:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Things go better with Duhon...
in this league but it is absolutely true
that when he is in the lineup with Hinrich
we get less over-dribbling from Kirk and
all around better movement without the ball
from everybody. Im not endorsing Gordon
on the bench but this has been true about
Duhon ever since he's been on the team
so when you've got a crappy point guard
in Hinrich and a one dimensional player
in Gordon whattya do? It'll be hard to
trade Gordon now and when you couple that
with guy like Thabo not playing anything
like Pax expected and Thomas not really
knowing anything about basketball then
the sky will be thick with chickens coming
home to roost for at least the rest of
this year.
by Rusty LaRue on Jan 2, 2008 5:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I realize...
Talk about this once Ben Gordon actually plays worse or the Bulls get destroyed by point guard play.
by Kemp on Jan 2, 2008 6:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Gordon and his agent care..
issue its how he perceives it as he tries to
pimp himself a new $50 mill+ contract.
Doesn't make it right but it does make it
reality
by Rusty LaRue on Jan 2, 2008 7:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wah wah wah.
If he is that flawed of a player, where he can only score with a fire under his ass, then he isn't getting resigned, or isn't getting resigned at the amount he wants, in the first place.
Thus this is doing two things; the first is helping the Bulls WIN GAMES and the second is making his trade value rise. If he continues average 22+ until the trade deadline, maybe Gordon/Noc/over hyped kid X can give us a player worth bitching about.
by Kemp on Jan 3, 2008 12:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dealing with contracts..
Gordon isn't likely to increase his trade value unless he
grows 4 inches. Everyone in the NBA knows exactly what
he's about and they know Pax is in a bad bind because of
pix that haven't panned out. Nobody is going to trade
for a guy that'll be on the market soon. Unless he's part
of a fire sale deal Gordon is going to be Pax's headache
for some time to come.
by Rusty LaRue on Jan 3, 2008 6:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if you're implying that
by bullshooter on Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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