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(UPDATE) Paxson speaks on crap situation he's created

Blogabull_s_tiny by your friendly BullsBlogger on in News Comment 195 comments

UPDATE: Paxson was interviewed by Mike North (for some reason North gets these assignments) and it's up at WSCR's website.

Not the greatest listen, but some information did come out: Regarding the Noah suspension, Pax made it seem like the 1st suspension was for the altercation with Adams, and the additional game from the players was for an accumulation of other things during the year. He was pretty vague on the details of the 'unanimous' vote, but North did get Pax to explicitly say that the rookies did not vote. Pax also said 'the veterans' made the decision. To me that leaves into question whether guys like Thomas or Sefolosha had a say either.

Regarding trade talks, Pax spent a lot of time whining about bad reporting, but did say that the McGrady reports were completely untrue.

******

Everything's A-Ok:

Bulls general manager John Paxson said today he had no problem with Bulls players voting to make Joakim Noah sit out an extra game as punishment for his run-in with assistant coach Ron Adams.

"Jim and I spoke [Friday] and the one game suspension was warranted," Paxson said. "The fact the players felt they needed to address it is, in my mind, a good thing. As Jim said, it's them taking ownership. I have no problem with that."

I think I would have a problem with this, if I knew what it meant. Wouldn't 'taking ownership' mean more than singling out a rookie who's already been punished? Perhaps not laying a big turd in the game that followed?

Or maybe Pax is hoping the players 'take ownership' so that he doesn't have to.

Paxson cited the fact that his team remains in the playoff race in the Eastern Conference as the reason that Boylan is sticking with a veteran rotation.

"We haven't lived up to any of the expectations we put on ourselves and that is extremely discouraging," Paxson said. "But today is not the day to determine that we just scrap it and do something totally different. Like I said before, there could come a point if things don't turn around and we don't believe we're contending for the playoffs, the experience for our younger players is going to be addressed. But we're not there yet."

Oh, what a pile of garbage.

Only the most dimwitted of fans care about making the playoffs just to make them. Even if the Bulls avoid a no-chance matchup against the Pistons or Celtics in the first round, the fact that this mad dash to the top-8 will be on the old backs of Wallace and Smith is hardly progress.

When Paxson fired Skiles, his subsequent media tour gave the impression that playing the youngsters was a goal. Now Pax is buying into this fallacy that playoffs and playing time for lottery picks is mutually exclusive.

So the only way we see a real change is if this sad bunch bottoms out of the playoff race? Way to make the fans root for losses.

And the final insult: "Paxson stuck to his policy of not answering any questions concerning trades."

Can't even feed the rumor mill because you're afraid it'll hurt your sensitive young team. What's supposed to keep this franchise interesting, watching the awful basketball?

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``Jim and I spoke [Friday] and the one game suspension was warranted,'' Paxson said. ``The fact the players felt they needed to address it is, in my mind, a good thing. As Jim said, it's them taking ownership. I have no problem with that."

That's not the worst part . . . .

As for the state of the struggling Bulls (14-21), Paxson cited the fact that his team remains in the playoff race in the Eastern Conference as the reason that Boylan is sticking with a veteran rotation.

And worse . . . .

``We haven't lived up to any of the expectations we put on ourselves and that is extremely discouraging,'' Paxson said. ``But today is not the day to determine that we just scrap it and do something totally different. Like I said before, there could come a point if things don't turn around and we don't believe we're contending for the playoffs, the experience for our younger players is going to be addressed. But we're not there yet.''

First off, Paxson's attempt to back the players up on this is just ridiculous. He knows he has the integrity of the team to protect but for the sake of God, this is a nation wide story for a reason.

There is no way he should endorse this act as if it's normal or a "good thing".

Second, just because the East is so poor and the Bulls are miraculously still in the playoff picture doesn't mean you should ride this miserable line up any further for the sake of saying, "At least we gave it our all"

This team has not gotten any better at all since Skiles left and if you ask me, they're even worse but that's for another argument.  

The Bulls are officially a disappointment. Even if they grab the 8th or 7th seed due in large part to the state of the Eastern Conference's lower tier, it's not something to hang your hat on.

My point being . . .

Pax, please just stop trying to say all the right things for the sake of the team. It's time you put your foot down on this mess you've created and take some responsibility.

by Option27 on Jan 14, 2008 8:59 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, should he just say all the wrong things?
I mean, I think what he said was about 98% Bulls**t, but I think his reacting any differently would be about as unprecedented as the vets getting a meeting together and hammering on Noah was.

by Sports2 on Jan 14, 2008 9:17 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my reaction to his words about the benching
was more just confusion than anything. 'taking ownership'?

But beyond that, there's no reason for Paxson to perpetuate this crap about the Bulls vet-laden playoff surge.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 9:20 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay.
Since you've got plenty of time to criticize Wallace, Griff, Boylan and now Pax  for this Noah thing maybe you'd like to share your
much better idea with us all.  

I mean it obviously isn't just an awful situation with no good options for anyone so tell us how it should've gone.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 9:31 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How it should have gone...
Wallace- should have held himself accountable before others.

Boylan- should have told Wallace & Griffin that management decides punishments, not the players.  The input of team leaders will be taken into consideration but suspensions cannot be enacted by the players.

Pax- should have told Boylan what Boylan should have told Wallace & Griffin.

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 9:45 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So your better idea
would be for an interim coach that everyone knows isn't coming back to tell the team  that he's in charge.  Thats one helluva plan big fella.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 10:06 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Im
trying to get some of you guys to get beyond complaining and look at the issue for what it actually is instead of what you'd like it to be.  I've  been asking for a long time  and not a single  soul has seriously suggested a better option for Boylan or Pax.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 10:23 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just did
I suggested the approach that any competently run organization would have taken.  

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 10:31 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

shoulda-been conversation
Griff-Wallace conclave: Coach, we've all taken a vote, and it's unanimous: we believe Joakhim should be suspended another game.

Boylan: huh?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 10:16 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No,
you've  got the better idea.  You know  how it should've gone so lets hear it.  Boylan's got to try and hold  this deal together and the team comes in with a unanimous request.   Lay it out.......

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 10:20 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So
your idea of a plan is just to let the players decide everything since the coach is interim?  That too, is one helluva plan.  Letting the team decide whatever they want is better than having an authority figure?

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 10:29 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wasn't kidding there
Boylan should've laughed them out of the room.

As it stands now, by letting the team hand out suspensions, he's already lost authority anyway. And who gives a shit if you 'lose' Ben Wallace? Replace him with more effective players?

But say that isn't practical and Wallace is so stubborn that he'll further kill the team if his request isn't honored. At the very least, if Boylan reconsidered on the suspension and thought the team was on to something, handle it internally and then publicly say it was an organizational decision endorsed by himself and Paxson. Ya know, management.

Is that enough detail?

The complaining is valid: to get to this point in the first place is only possible after a series of failures up and down the organization. I'm not the one charged with figuring out a solution, and it's not needed to legitimize commentary. So take that shitty tone of yours out of here.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 10:37 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to jump in the middle
but it seems like a good spot.  Matt et al., I think you guys are taking things out of order now.  All of the second suspension stuff happened after the Philly game, a game in which the bulls rallied from a 20 pt deficit.  So Boylan obviously had reason to believe this was coming from a cohesive team.  Now I know you want to pooh-pooh that win as insignificant, and it probably is based on the follow up egg the team laid, but that was after all the suspension stuff went down.  So I think it is a little unfair.

And another thing.  This is all about finger pointing and the only thing I hear you guys suggesting is more finger pointing.  Warranted or not, it certainly isn't the smart thing to do.  Wallace is already demonstrated that he is an emotional baby, why antagonize him, especially if there is any hope of moving him?  Pointing more fingers isn't the answer.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 15, 2008 9:03 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a rally against the sixers!
Well sure, if this team was any good then these shennanigans with Noah may have worked. But that's the point, this can only happen with a proven team that's any good. Nothing this season should have management giving them the benefit of the doubt.

A pile of dogshit is pretty cohesive too.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 9:19 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about the Atlanta club hop?
Wasn't Noah out clubbing in Atlanta on Saturday night?

Did the players make their decision on the day of the Atlanta game or prior to that?

by NBA Observer on Jan 15, 2008 1:06 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my theory
is that Wallace bought shots, and Noah had enough to drink and refused it. Taken as an insult, Wallace said: "why you refusing my shot man? cause you want to play tomorrow morning? well guess what! team vote! you're not playing!" And then took both shots himself and high-fived whoever was closest.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 1:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

whomever was closest
Probably Al Horford or Joe Johnson.

by NBA Observer on Jan 15, 2008 1:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The story of how Ben Wallace became
a good basketball player is always that he was driven by being disrespected.  So I say disrepect the hell out of him.  

by Scotter on Jan 15, 2008 3:00 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Boylan was a lame duck coach
the  day he  took the job and everyone in the world but you I  guess already  knew that, players included, so the idea that this has somehow undermined what was already  non-existent authority is a fantasy.  He's got to concern himself with getting these guys to compete the next day, thats all.   And if letting the team police itself is part of that then Im all for it and you should be too.

The only argument that anybody could have with this is that it would've been better  if Boylan had the pulse of the team to begin with and made the suspension 2 games at the beginning.
Period, end of story.  So all you're left to bitch about  is style instead of substance.

I love the fact that you don't feel like you need to offer better alternatives to your constant knee-jerk bitching.  Let me guess,
you're a Cubs fan too.

The fact of the matter is that too many guys, including you,
are rooting for or against personalities moreso than you are the team as a whole.   So what happens is only marginally more important to you that whose involved and its been that way long before any of this Noah shit happened.

You couch almost everything in this comic book hero/villian
perspective and filter everything that happens through that prism.  If you want to see this team get better then you ought
to EMBRACE what happened with Noah and stop whining like
a girl because it wasn't perfect.  If  you want Noah to be able to contribute meaningfully anytime soon then you ought  to root
FOR him being brought in line and how it happens isn't of any
consequence.   NONE.    But  because  you guys don't like Wallace you're going to cry like its the worst thing that ever happened.   Its like you're watching a soap opera instead of a
sport.

And make no mistake, Im not defending Wallace over anyone.  
I don't care how things get accomplished I  just care that they DO get accomplished.  Imperfect or not.

And as far as my  "shitty tone".    If you don't like having people disagree with you or challenge you then maybe you should make that clear in the registration page.   I can see why you take up for Noah.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 12:43 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know what...
don't be a smart ass.  If you wanna talk shit about my attitude then monitor your own as well.  If you've got something to
say about a post say it.  "huh?"  is girlie.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 1:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then
don't whine about how people talk to you

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 1:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no, that's the thing
I can do whatever I want. You're acting like a shithead so I'll tell you as much until I'm bored of it.

This blog is more your speed: http://sixtitles.blogspot.com/

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 1:12 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This
is getting really eloquent isn't it???

Here's what your options are:

1.  You can kick me out for arguing my points

2.  You can get over it.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 1:17 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or you realizing the difference
between the arguing and disagreement of points as opposed to saying: "here's what I think and if you think different that's only because you're an idiot" peppered in with subtle sarcasm like "well I guess you know everything"

So try that option first. Man-up!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 1:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And a sexist to boot.
A real loser this one is.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 15, 2008 1:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hi LB26!
I'd know this guy anywhere on the internet!

by Sports2 on Jan 15, 2008 1:45 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who?
This is the only screenname I use anywhere.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 15, 2008 1:53 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry tyger
I meant Rusty LaRue, who bears a striking resemblence to a poster who once went by LB26Matrix at RealGM and BBF.com

by Sports2 on Jan 15, 2008 3:15 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No one who wants Noah & Thomas to play more
gives a crap about personalities.  All they want is for the Bulls to put the best players on the court.  The reason people don't like Wallace is that he sucks at basketball.

If anyone is focusing on personalities, it is you... Noah needs to be "brought in line."

And that is a ridiculous comment about authority.  Boylan may be a lame duck, but Pax isn't.  Discipline can still be handed out by management even with a lame duck coach.

And getting the players to compete every day?  Its not like Griffin plays or Wallace could try any less/suck any more.  

by JeffD on Jan 15, 2008 1:31 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The vets just lost by 20 points to the Hawks
I'm pretty sure the young players can manage to do the same.  If they can't, then Paxson ought to be fired simply for blowing two straight lottery picks.

by Big D on Jan 14, 2008 9:21 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, what's a guy to do?
Do I buy every word out of the mouth of the players, coaches and GM's as gospel Truth as Sue is wont to do? Even if the statements seem contradictory as Matt pointed out...

Or do I buy the conspiracy theory that bullshooter wants you to believe that it's all about creating trade value to get rid of Wallace and/or Joe Smith? (This would explain why Pax agrees with the discipline-he can't say it was the wrong thing to do, implying Wallace is a cancer, and then think he's going to be able to trade him.)

Or do I buy another theory of BigD that everyone in the organization cowers to either Ben Wallace or Arm Tellem/Jerry Reinsdorf?

Since I've been saying it for at least a week, I'll go with bullshooter's trade idea. I would think he/she would be really pissed about this since the backup youngsters suck such terrible ass.

Why can't this team just start winning so we can quit trying to figure it all out? Ugh.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2008 9:25 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm willing to buy into that
no sense burying Wallace if the plan is to move him, although I'd assume NBA peeps know a lot more inside stuff about the Bulls anyway, and what Wallace is really like. But teams do like looking smart with reclamation projects, too.

Sad thing is, Wallace would look a lot more effective if he didn't play heavy minutes each game.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 10:18 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Isn't it obvious that the
veteran rotation can't win a championship?

A rotation of Hinrich, Duhon, Gordon, Deng, Smith, Wallace, and Nocioni simply does not have enough talent to win the title. Compare that rotation to the rotations of the elite teams.

The only way that the Bulls have any chance of actually winning the championship is if the younger players develop. Period. End of story. If the younger players aren't developed, the Bulls can't win a title, regardless of whether or not they make the playoffs this season.

Since they can't win the championship, the only point of making the playoffs is (a) fiscal; and (b) reputational (i.e. you can claim that you maintained the momentum of the franchise or something of that nature). However, in order to reap that short-term reputational and fiscal benefit, the team has to sacrifice the long-term development of the youth, the very development that is the only viable path to an ultimate championship.  

The strategy is myopic and self-defeating.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 14, 2008 9:38 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pretty much.
That's what I don't understand about the comments of bullshooter, rusty and others. They're making it a "who's better now" argument as if there's nothing else to consider.

First, there are many here who would disagree that Noah and Thomas aren't better than Wallace, Nocioni and Smith right now. (Did you know Joe Smith is currently having his most efficient season of his career? Who wants to bet me he keeps that up at 30 mpg?)

Second, the more time goes by, the more obvious it becomes that this veteran team sucks ass. Whilst discerning eyes could see the reality, an ignorant case could at least be made after the 'hot' start that this rotation sucked. How could the young kids, even if they are worse, be that much worse than average? What are they going to do, lose 3 more games and go 30-52 as opposed tot he 33-win pace they're currently on? I just don't see how a real argument can be made that playing Noah and Thomas significantly more minutes would be much worse than the team currently playing.

Third, even if playing the younger guys does make the team worse for this year, shouldn't they play more for the simple "chance" that they'll be better next year. There is no reasonable person that assumes Joe Smith and Ben Wallace will be as "good" next year as they are this year. The only way this team is better next year is if the younger guys who have a chance to get better do get better.

No, the only way people who think Thomas and Noah are getting the right amount of minutes are either a) very satisfied with being a mediocre team for the next few year or b) think that benching these guys will teach them valuable basketball skills that playing would not. I don't buy either one.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2008 9:57 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I will just add an irrational
argument to support you. Namely, when I see the young guys play, even if they make mistakes, I get a feeling of hope. Contrarily, when I watch the "Vets" hang in there with another team (which is about as well as they've done since we really haven't built many large leads), I get a sick feeling of dread waiting for the inevitable collapse.

by philosoball on Jan 14, 2008 10:06 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hope is an illusion
TT, Noah, Gray, Thabo, none of these guys is the transcendent talent that the bulls need to get them over the top.  They are most likely just replacements for the guys who gutted out a second round appearance last year.  If any of those guys were that great, they'd already be logging heavy minutes, they wouldn't be hit and miss players like they've shown.  

That said, I'd rather they win on hustle than lose on apathy.  But the point of getting so many "assets" is to turn them into a truly transcendent player, like a Wade or a LBJ.  Gasol probably isn't that guy.  TMac definitely isn't.  You should be glad Paxson isn't flipping youngsters just to get one of those guys to sell tickets.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 15, 2008 9:11 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the point of getting good players
is to have a good team. Transcendence is an arbitrary distinction.

I don't see the argument in that they shouldn't try out better performers because they may be good but not that good.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 9:16 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My point is that
they aren't any more consistent.  Sure TT can make some great plays, but he makes just as many if not more dumb plays.  That's fine if there is nothing else around or you're trying to develop the guy.  But if you are trying to make the playoffs, or feature the guys ahead of him to trade, then you don't have many minutes.  And Joe Smith has played beyond expectations, so why not ride him until he breaks down?  If nothing else he is a great example for how guys should bring it every night.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 15, 2008 9:26 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because Joe Smith's
career year doesn't actually add up to that much.  All Joe Smith's prescence does is give coaches the "trust the veterans" excuse card.

by Scotter on Jan 15, 2008 3:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For me, waiting to turn a bunch of
"good" players into a "transcendent" player is an illusion. There aren't that many McHale's in the league. And anyways, I don't really get excited about trades. I'd rather see what we can do with the players we already have. Maybe I'm way off here, but I see Noah as a damn good copy of Tyson with height and athleticism. His potential certainly seems great than Wallace's at this point, although Wallace can probably still give you a good 25 minutes/game. Tyrus is a bit harder to judge since I don't really feel sure about his potential yet. I do know that he is the only Bull who takes the ball to the rim consistently and he already seems to be a very good rebounder. Let Joe Smith play the first part of each half and maybe the end of the game if he is hot.
Well that's how I see it.

by philosoball on Jan 15, 2008 11:06 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We need to stop grouping people together...
...like dissing all 'veterans'. I think Big Ben has been big, but I like what Joe Smith has done. Similarly on the youngsters, over the last few games Noah seems to have been more effective than T2, though I still like Tyrus.

by bullsfaninbigapple on Jan 15, 2008 8:16 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll disagree with you...
... Thomas and Noah aren't really all that good. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that either.

That said, I don't really want to argue the point with you considering you are a fair weather fan and I don't really care what you think about the Bulls.

(see yesterday's post for clarification)

by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 15, 2008 9:21 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Haha
Turd this. If you don't care, don't respond. That said, my fandom still gives me better insight than whatever yours is.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 15, 2008 9:27 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your fandom?
That's a joke right?

"I like the Bears, Bulls and Cubs, but all lose my interest when they're losing... If one of "my teams" is doing poorly, I'll find other teams or other players to root for."

Your words, not mine buddy.

Frankly I'm not sure why you are even here anymore. Go find a Spurs blog.

by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 15, 2008 9:40 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ouch.
Should I return my Bulls merchandise? Do I get kicked out of the club? Go play some pinochle.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 15, 2008 9:44 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh, no kidding
I watched some Wiz-Celtics last night and it was far more enjoyable than recent Bulls games.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 9:46 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No doubt....
It's enjoyable, which is why I have the NBA league pass, but when Tyger incessantly comments about the player rotation of a team he admittedly has zero allegiance to, well... It kind of negates the "fandom" card.

by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 15, 2008 9:54 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ugh.
I suppose this just makes it easier for you to argue your point, since it completely sucks anyway. If you can focus on one perceived fault of some person making the counter-argument (even if the argument is being made by a large number of others), then you don't have to address the argument itself. Because your points suck.

Get over it and get over whatever love you have for your face paint and #1 foam finger. I'm still a fan of this team, and they're still my favorite. And even if I wasn't, my point concerning rotation minutes is still correct.

I don't need to defend my fandom to you. I feel lame for even engaging in this, but I guess that was your point, wasn't it? Attack the arguer, not the argument.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 15, 2008 10:05 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, well
you can't even spell El-Amin's name correctly, so nobody cares what you think makes a true fan either.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 10:28 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seriously?
I wasn't arguing what makes a true fan, but I can sure as hell spot an imposter.

Your blog is a self important joke.

by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 15, 2008 10:40 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hear! Hear!
LOL
"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Jan 15, 2008 12:27 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You have think more
about immediate needs.  I don't think Pax is trying to make the playoffs.  He knows as well as you or I that  the 8th seed is doom.   He needs a new coach next year.  He can't bring Boylan back and expect to keep  his  job.  Pax  needs to be able to sell this gig to the Carlisles of the world and those guys aren't going to sign on to a team in complete disarray coming off a 24 win season.   However if they're looking at a team that held it together, made a run at the playoffs AND have a lottery pick then thats a different matter and the lottery pick  is huge because there damn sure isn't a championship in this roster on the  floor or on the bench.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 10:11 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

First of all, I
would think that a roster full of developing young talent would be more attractive to prospective coaches than a roster full of stymied, bitter youngsters and aging veterans. Call me crazy.

Second of all, this statement is pure supposition: "there damn sure isn't a championship in this roster on the  floor or on the bench." You don't know that. You can't know that. If Tyrus and Noah fulfill their potential, the potential that made them top ten lottery picks, the potential that all of the teams in the NBA saw (it's not as if Tyrus and Noah were surprise top ten picks), the Bulls could be a title contender. But the only way we'll ever know if the two young players can fulfill their potential is if they are on the court, playing basketball. Right now, there is no way to tell whether or not Noah and Tyrus are capable of being great players. We only know that the staff has relegated them to a bench role because those damn whippersnappers are real rabblerousers.

This is source of my fundamental disagreement with you. You assume that the team isn't good enough to compete for a title. You've given up on Noah and Tyrus after half a season of inconsistent, fluctuating playing time. It's premature.

 

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 14, 2008 10:25 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Developing talent"...
is a synonym for losers.   I don't think Carlisle is more excited about teaching Thomas fundamentals ,or Noah plays,  as he is about winning.

As for the level of talent on this team......

Are you really saying that this team as constituted, even when its playing well, is in the same class as Boston or Detroit??   Where is this idea coming from??   The whole issue with this team for the last three years has been that they over-acheive and have to execute at a very high level simply to give themselves a chance to compete.  This idea that there is still some vast degree of unknown about this team is just fiction.  It completely disregards  everything about them.  Our  guards are undersized and slow, our best player is a jump shooting 3 who isn't fast enough to take people off the dribble and not strong enough to post up.    Smith is an undersized 4 even though he's been effective and Wallace isn't at his best without backside help.
Where is the championship there??

The issue is that even if Noah or the HSTT were to develop like some of you guys think, which is an enormous extrapolation,
it doesn't do anything to address the many  weaknesses this team already has and there is no way  in heaven or hell that either one of those guys  are ever going to be good enough to make that go away.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 12:55 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I commented with a separated shoulder
and didn't complain. I wasn't making the money today's commenters do. This HSCS Mustard tastes great in HSCS Wine, and don't get me started about the velvet touch of HSCS Toilet Paper.
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 15, 2008 1:07 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not a single one of your arguments makes an
iota of sense. They are all based on the same inaccurate premise: namely, that Noah and Tyrus aren't good players.

You have somehow concluded that Noah and Tyrus or "busts" (or some equivalent term), but you have absolutely no evidence supporting that conclusion.

If Tyrus and Noah had both been given consistent, ample playing time for a number of seasons, had been tutored and nurtured by a supportive coaching staff, and had still failed to develop, then you could rationally call them failures. However, as it is, neither has been given consistent playing time, neither had had an opportunity to develop, and neither has been the beneficiary of a supportive, didactic coaching staff.  Instead, they have sat on the bench for the majority of their respective careers.  Hence, there is absolutely no way of knowing whether they have the talent to be bad, good, average, or great players at this juncture.

Let me remind you that, during the latter half of 2006-2007, when Tyrus did get consistent playing time, he fared well. Not surprisingly, when he was regularly permitted to be on the court for substantial stretches, he found a rhythm and began contributing.

So what is your evidence that Tyrus and Noah don't have talent? What is your evidence that they can't develop into stars?

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 15, 2008 1:41 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lets not carried away
I've not said that either the HSTT  or Noah are busts.  Its self evident that they aren't very good right now and the likelihood that there is going to be some sudden upswing in production isn't based in fact, its based on hope.  Lets look at both guys.

Noah.  Does not posses a shot at all.  He has no game with his back to the basket and I don't think he's likely to develop one because he doesn't have good footwork at all and he is an undersized post  player who cannot hold position against bigger and stronger 4/5's.  He is a clumsy limited offensive player who exacerbates that by not bothering to learn the plays.  You  can hope that he overcomes all that if you'd like but I  don't think its likely that he will.

That doesn't mean he is a bust.  It does mean though that we're
not talking about the next Tim Duncan or Dwight Howard or
even Chris Bosh.  Noah is a guy who if he finds himself in the right position may be able to contribute but he's not the kind of guy you  just throw  minutes at regardless because you're going to build your team around him.  

Thomas.  This guy is a hugely  gifted athlete that  doesn't understand how to play  basketball very well right now and his learning curve is desperately steep.   It is not true to say that when Thomas got more time last year he "played well".   At times he did and at times he played like shit which is directly related to the fact that he doesn't concentrate on the floor, is lazy as hell at  times, and doesn't look like he even understands what is being asked of him.  I'd encourage you to go back and look at game logs for Thomas and see how up and down his production was.  

That also doesn't make him a bust but it does mean that the day he will begin to play up  to potential is a long long long way away so it isn't wise to just hand minutes to the guy  thinking he's about to get it.   He isn't.  He's still lost on the court very often, turns the ball over too much, and gets into stupid  foul trouble.

And all of that said I'll repose my question to you:

Do you really think that this roster, even when they're playing well, is in the same class as Boston or Detroit??   And why do you really think either Thomas or Noah are the answers to the issues facing the team?

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 2:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

blah-blah-blah
Just add everything in you signature. It'll save you the time of typing out the same baseless stuff over and over again.

And who are you addressing with the Duncan/Howard/Bosh stuff? Who said that?

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 15, 2008 2:14 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he's talking about Tyger...
and his man crush on TT.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 15, 2008 2:21 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll be sure
not to trouble you with facts in the future.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 3:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rusty, that's simply your
own personal scouting report. It's an opinion, more than an argument or evidence. I'm sure other scouts, both professional and amatuer, would have differen assessments of Tyrus and Noah.

In any event, why argue about the potential of Tyrus and Noah in the abstract? Why not put them on the floor consistently and see what actually happens? That's the only way to know with certainty whether or not Paxson squandered those draft picks. The Bulls sacrifice very little by doing so. At absolute worst, they give up a futile playoff appearance that would likely end in the first round. Conversely, if the young players find there rhythm and develop, the Bulls might actually end up making the playoffs with a chance of advancing. It's worth the risk.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 15, 2008 2:26 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"their" even...
Sigh.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 15, 2008 2:32 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No.
It is not an opinion that  Noah has no shot.  It is not an opinion that his footwork is excessively poor, it is not an opinion that his lack of size in the upper and lower body is going to make it hard for him to be effective with big minutes in the NBA.   The issues with Noah are very objective and observable by anyone.  Again, Im not saying he ought to be taken out back and shot but the odds against him being an all-star type player are huge, even without his attitude issues.

Thomas' situation is a little harder to pin down but  again it is not opinion that he doesn't  understand the game  very well,
It is not opinion that he  hasn't developed a jumper that he'll need.  Its not an opinion that he has to have a much much better grasp of the fundamentals before he can really put his athletic skills to best use.

The point that some of you guys seem to be making over and over is that since these two haven't demonstrated to two coaches that they deserve more playing time, and they make only limited use of the pt they do get that somehow the best solution is to give them more playing time.  That isn't a rational point of view.

In either case the franchise as a whole has much more pressing
issues than how much pt these two get in the next couple of months.  I suspect at the season winds on they'll get more playing time, Thomas anyway, and thats appropriate.

But for the third time now Im going to ask you:
Do you really think this team as its exists now can compete with
Boston and Detroit??

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 2:59 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A number of responses...
(1) I want to respond to this first: "The point that some of you guys seem to be making over and over is that since these two haven't demonstrated to two coaches that they deserve more playing time, and they make only limited use of the pt they do get that somehow the best solution is to give them more playing time.  That isn't a rational point of view." First of all, when you rely on the fact that two coaches haven't given Noah and Tyrus PT, you are assuming (a) that those coaches made the correct decisions for basketball related reasons; and (b) that the decisions of those coaches were motivated by the long-term prospects of the franchise. Neither is necessarily true. As I have written repeatedly, Boylan has absolutely no incentive to develop young players when he probably won't even be here to reap the rewards of that development. His career prospects depend upon his ability to win games and win them now. Hence the myopic reliance on veterans to the detriment of the franchise. Second of all, your synopsis mischaracterizes the argument.  This isn't about just desserts or what the players deserve, it is about the long-term health of the Bulls. The argument is this: the Core and veterans alone can't win a title; the only way the Bulls have any chance of winning a title is if the young players develop; the only way the young players can develop is if they play; hence, play the youngsters, expecially considering that the Bulls sacrifice very little this season by doing so. If the youth plays and they develop, then you have a potential title contender. If the youth plays and they don't develop, then you know those picks were squandered and you rebuild.  From a long term franchise perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever to thwart the growth of the young players, remain ignorant as to the true abilities of your draft picks, and stagnate merely to make a pointless playoff appearance. The goal is to win a championship. You don't sacrifice the lone potential avenue to a title for some transient, ephemeral gain;

(2) You're just regurguitating your own peronal scouting report. Even assuming, arguendo, that your observations are correct (and I am not so conceding), there is no evidence that Noah can't learn footwork, or that Tyrus can't address his lack of understanding, whatever that means. One way a player improves is by actually, you know, playing basketball...in a game. Finally, your negative scouting report entirely disregards all of the good things those players do, which makes it biased, unbalanced, and opinionated;

(3) Yes, I believe that if Tyrus and Noah fulfilled their potential, the Bulls could contend for the title. Hell, the Bulls can compete with the Pistons right now.  

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 15, 2008 3:25 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

response
1. For your first point to be valid you have to believe that two coaches who had significant incentive to win now opted not to give more time to  players who you argue would have helped them win.  There is just no way thats a rational point.  To question whether or not these decisions were "basketball
related" is bizarre and conspiratorial.  You keep coming around to the argument that while these guys may not "deserve" more playing time they ought to get it anyway.   Thats an extremely  questionable approach with lots of risk.  Were you not paying attention when Floyd did that with Curry and Chandler??  What about that experiment makes you eager to repeat it?

2.  Im repeating the same observations because they're true and
extremely relevant.  Im noting your lack of substantive response to the physical observations I've made about both of them.  You've conceded the point tacitly.

You can't just assume that Noah might "learn footwork" and everything is fine.  At the same time he'd have to put on weight,
get stronger,  become a better ballhandler, and learn to play with his back to the basket.  In other words alter his game in
every respect.   These are inter-related issues and you cannot cherry pick one and hope for  improvement.

If you don't know what I mean by Thomas' lack of understanding then I wonder if you're  watching the games.

And finally you're mistaken that I don't take their positives into
account.  Perhaps its your reading of my post that is skewed.

3.  The 2006 playoffs beg to differ

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 4:08 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the Bulls are
a NBA team, and they do have young talent.  In order to see what talent they have they need playing time.  No NBA ready coach will turn the Bulls job, its a privelege to coach in the NBA.  Pax is doing what he always does, when has he ever said something surprising to the media.  It's boring and predictable
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 14, 2008 10:25 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just saw Noah comments on ABC local news...
Noah said:

"I disagree with it [the punishment]."

"I didn't know you get suspended by players."

When asked why he was smiling:

"What am I going to do, go in a corner and pout. I am in the NBA, man, I have a pretty good life."

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 14, 2008 10:30 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just saw that too.
I didn't know you could get suspended by players either.

I think Noah is a guy coming from a winning program that had strong leadership in the coaching and staff, great team chemistry...and now plays for the Bulls.  No leadership. No winning attitude. Team chemistry off. And now they have teammates enacting punishment on a rookie while being blown out by Atlanta.  

Noah spoke up way back in the beginning as though he could see something wasn't quite right.  Of course Skiles told him to be quiet because he was a rookie, but Skiles apparently didn't like what he was seeing either at the end.  

by cranscape on Jan 14, 2008 10:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where was the team vote
when Wallace showed up late before I believe it was Game 3?  The single most important game of the Paxson era.  Ben Wallace has come into this organization and has single handly ruined what good Pax had going.  When Pax looks back it will be the Wallace move that will haunt him
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 14, 2008 11:00 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What a crap fest.
How did one of the best run organizations in the NBA turn into this.  I don't fault Paxson for his draft picks.  I do fault him for not taking over the coaching position when he fired Skiles.  Then I'd at least know exactly how much to blame Paxson for stupid rotations and the league's worst starting lineup.

by Scotter on Jan 14, 2008 11:02 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd normally say
that the coach/GM position is too much for one guy. But Pax doesn't exactly seem the type to burn up the phone lines. (Ric Bucher might hear about it! Or steal from someone who did)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 11:03 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is a really rare instance,
where it would make since.  Paxson has no desire to coach so he's not some desperate interim coach trying to save his NBA coaching career.  And he has real authority in the organization with no need to play nice with veteran players in order to gain the appearance of authority.  And I believed at the time, Paxson wanted to play the kids.  Maybe I was wrong about that last part.

by Scotter on Jan 14, 2008 11:11 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Faulting Paxson for his draft picks
or the corollary which is in Pax we trust.  Maybe it's time to revisit the trust we have in Pax.

Here are his draft picks and who was still on the board.

  1. Hinrich/Pietrus, Diaw, Barbosa, and Josh Howard
  2. Gordon and Deng/Livingston, Childress, Iguodala, Biedrins, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith
  3. No pick
  4. TT and Thabo/Roy and Brewer
  5. Too soon to tell.
The 2004 draft was the real killer.  So was the 2002 draft but that was another regime/story.

by hlac on Jan 15, 2008 1:48 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Deng's good.
I don't really think the 2004 draft was a killer, per se, we did get Deng out of it. Gordon's OK, but he needs to learn how to play D. He can, but I don't think he can mentally, if you know what I mean.

by Prevenge on Jan 15, 2008 3:37 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2004 didn't kill us
Deng is a good pick (I wouldn't trade him straight up for any of those listed) and Gordon would be better if our system was different. He handles the ball too much cause we don't have a way to kick out to him (cause our PG doesn't create off the ball and we have no low-post threat).
The 2006 draft is what kills me. Leaving Thomas aside, we had Ronnie Brewer and traded him to the Jazz for Thabo. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but I'd love to have Brewer and his athletic and scoring ability right now. He looked very impressive in pre-season.

by Old Skool Sloan on Jan 15, 2008 8:48 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The 2004
draft was the best of the bunch.  We wouldn't  have turned it around otherwise.  2006 is killing us

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 12:57 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why would the 06' class be "killing us"?
If anything its the under-performance/inconstant play of the starters that is hurting the most. The 06' picks should be given more then a season and half before they are labeled as "team killers".

Portland had time to start and play both of their top 06' picks for an entire season, allowing/forcing them to develop at a faster rate.

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 15, 2008 1:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because
we need the  upgrade at guard from Thabo more than we need anything.  Big athletic two/three guards that can score and defend are damn hard  to come by and if we don't get that from him then its probably coming from outside  the organization.

At the time the team could afford to wait on Thomas' potential.
That luxury is gone.  

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 1:14 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gordon was coming off a terrific season
and should have been the "stud scoring SG".

Thabo was only looked upon to improve his offensive game and come in for defensive help while Gordon rested.

This season, nothing has gone as planned and blaming the team's record on the fact Sefolosha has not been contributing 20 points a game would not be fair giving his development cycle/expectations coming into this season.

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 15, 2008 1:20 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're right.
Gordon was coming off a good season but its hard to make the
argument that he's a "stud scoring SG" as 6,' if that.  Pax made that pick to get taller and more athletic at guard and it hasn't worked at all.  At the time I gave him the benefit of the doubt but Thabo is edging ever-closer to Eddie Basden territory.

Im not blaming everything that's happened to the team on Thabo but his lack of development thus far just makes the shortcomings at guard all the more difficult to overcome.  

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 1:39 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why did
Paxson kick or gracefully force BJ Armstrong off of the Bulls staff?
I've always wondered this?

by exult463 on Jan 14, 2008 11:05 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I assume
Armstrong felt he was in line for the job. When Pax was selected over him he felt it was time to go.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 11:07 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm sure B.J. thought he was done
backing up Paxson back in the fall of 92'.  Anyway if B.J.'s ESPN work is any indication, I don't think the Bulls are missing out on much.  

by Scotter on Jan 14, 2008 11:17 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep
my dad and I have always said the same thing.  At the time, I believe that BJ was Krause's "special assistant" or something like that, and it looked like the writing was on the wall that he would get the next shot to run things once the Penguin left.

In my opinion, the Pax hiring was strictly a Reinsdorf move.  Somehow he thought it would be better to hire the Bulls radio analyst than someone who had been actually working in the front office for a few years...great move...it couldn't have turned out any better...thanks Jerry!

Once he got passed over, I think he was pretty much like "f-yall" and left...

by ScottieCartwright on Jan 15, 2008 9:07 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right. Reinsdorf had to do something
that directly targeted what he felt was the overwhelming problem at the time, which was that the fans, for the first time in memory, were turning on the team en masse.

Paxson was an affable radio voice perfectly positioned to stop the fan freefall.  He came across as studious, thoughtful, deliberate, calm...the anti-Krause.  BJ was too aligned with Krause, if not in reality, certainly in perception.  There were a lot of people at the time who thought BJ was the better qualified candidate, but Reinsdorf voted for the public relations fix.

What we see playing out now is the denouement of that plan, first set in motion in
April 2003.  Reinsdorf was right; Paxson is indeed the anti-Krause.  If Krause was a gun-slinger, Paxson is a CPA.  If Krause got lost in the big picture romance of it all, Paxson gets lost in the fine print, toting up the incremental gains and losses on the balance sheet.

Krause saw the end coming and acted boldly to rebuild the franchise form the ground up.  When he was fired, the team was still within the time tolerance he'd initially declared it would take for the new team to gain traction. And by the end of 2004, Krause was looking like the visionary some (including the faithless Reinsdorf) always knew him to be...but too late, because Paxson had came in with his mandate to clean house, and scattered Krause's core players.    

I fear that Paxson has no vision, no genius.  He is not the "transcendent player" a championship team requires.  

The moral of the story might be that Krause thought too big, Paxson too small.

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 10:03 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nicely said
In reality, I think if BJ would've gotten the job, I think you'd be seeing MJ still involved with the organization in one way or another.  They were said to be pretty close friends during their time playing together...maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that that his loyalty would've extended to Michael in some capacity.

In any event, in hindsight, over the last few weeks it's been easy to say that Paxson hasn't done the greatest job...truth be told, I never liked the hiring in the first place.  Yes, he HAS helped change the attitude and culture of the org in some way, but it still hasn't equaled too many more wins.

How could you know what BJ was going to bring to the table if you don't give the man a chance?  I always felt bad for him with that whole situation.

by ScottieCartwright on Jan 15, 2008 10:36 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pax
and Michael are still close, btw.

Being Krause's protegee isn't necessarily a good thing. Krause had an awful lot of truely horrible drafts where much better players were over looked.
I don't think Armstrong impressed Reinsdorf, and that's the person who counted.

by KT on Jan 15, 2008 10:59 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

besides
is Armstrong in a high-level personnel position anywhere else in the league yet?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 11:04 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reinsdorf
his perception was just what you said, "being Krause's protegee isn't necessarily a good thing"...that being said, it still doesn't equal reality.

Maybe it's just me, but hiring a former player-turned radio analyst to run your team doesn't seem like the most top-level executive decision that an ower can make.  Logically (and I use that term loosely when referring to Reinsdork) it would make more sense to hire the man-in-training...the guy waiting in the wings.  The guy who already has some behind-the-scenes experience.  But we ARE talking about a Chicago sports team, so logic goes to the wind...

That would be like Paxson hiring Stacey King to coach the team next season.  Sure, he sounds good, and as much as people on this site clown him, he DOES make good basketball and teaching points (even has some CBA coaching exp)...but he's the TV analyst for goodness sake...it's a totally different beast on the other side of the lines.

My point was that BJ was already seeing how that "beast" worked...Pax was the radio guy who made good points.

So does this mean that Wennington will run the team when Pax gets fired?

by ScottieCartwright on Jan 15, 2008 11:15 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Reinsdork"
I SERIOUSLY did not try to type that...lol...it was an honest typo that somehow worked  :)

by ScottieCartwright on Jan 15, 2008 11:21 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Except that Stacy actually has
coaching experience.  In fact, his resume is not that different from Phil Jackson's.  OK OK I didn't mean to invoke the name of the holy one.

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 11:26 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was responding to Scottie's comment
about hiring someone to coach....  Maybe you are too?  In any event, I was thinking more along the lines of Phil and Stacey's CBA coaching experience, where they each took a team to the championship game (although Phil won and Stacey lost), and that each did TV analysis.

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 11:45 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

King
you're right, he does have coaching experience...I think I said that in my previous post...

If they are looking for the "next" Phil Jackson, then King would be the way to go.  But I doubt that Paxson would give someone the same TYPE of chance that was given to him.

I kinda take back what I said earlier though.  Being completely honest, King makes great points during the telecasts (corny jokes aside).  I could see people going crazy (especially on here) if he got the job, but I don't think I would be THAT upset about it.

Heck, he would be a new name and face in the NBA coaching world...people are tired of these old retreads (Fratello, Carlisle, Brown)...let someone with an updated perspective have a shot.

by ScottieCartwright on Jan 15, 2008 12:00 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"...an awful lot of truly horrible
drafts" (?) I beg to differ.

Looking back, the 2000 draft was more than likely the worst draft, top to bottom, in NBA history.  Krause took Fizer and Crawford, but check out who was there to choose from:  http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2000.html  

I believe Krause' ultimate draft triumph will turn out to be the trade of Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler.  That's probably the decision that got him fired, but look where that trade is today:  Chandler has the look of a perpetual all-star/olympian; Brand, though a very nice player, will turn out to be exactly what Krause used him for--a trade asset.

It doesn't make any sense to look at most of the Bulls' drafts in the '90's, because they never had good draft position.

But if you do want to go back a little further, I'd say it's impossible to argue against the Pippen and Grant choices.

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 11:23 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And then relinquishing Grant
to take on Rodman was posibly the most boldly brilliant move of any NBA exec in the last two decades.

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 11:30 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

losing Grant to free agency
wasn't planned, and trading for an all but scrapped Rodman a year later wasn't part of a plan that wasn't planned in the first place.
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 15, 2008 11:52 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fine.
One point to Slytherin.

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 12:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he means
you FOS as usual.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 15, 2008 11:57 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you guys and your revisionist history
I need to wear boots to read these comments...
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 15, 2008 11:56 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my gosh, what do you mean?
Jerry Sloan for Bryce Drew was the most stunning move in the history of the NFL!
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 15, 2008 12:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK. Bringing in Rodman
to fill the void left by the departed Grant was one of the most boldly brilliant moves, blah, blah, blah....  And mind your smart mouth young man, or I'll take back that point.

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 12:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it wasn't even bold
Rodman's libertine reputation aside, Krause traded Will Perdue and cash for the guy. The Bulls weren't losing anything if Rodman didn't work out. I don't recall if his contract was even guaranteed at the time, but he wasn't signed for any longer than 1 year.
Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 15, 2008 12:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Krause's bad drafts
Brand shouldn't have been traded!  Chandler is not going to be an all-star or perpetual Olympian. He barely played this summer.  There were better people in 2001 to take, and they could have kept Brand.  Pau Gasol.  Gasol/Brand would have been a good combo.  And let's not forget Tony Parker or Gilbert Arenas.  If Krause was really scouting Europe, Parker should habe been on his radar.

In 2000, instead of Crawford and Fizer, he could have had Chris Mihm,  Etan Thomas, Desmond Mason, or Michael Redd.  

In 2002, they could have had Caron Butler who was  highly valued by  a lot of teams in that draft.  They could also have had Tyshaun Prince or Carlos Boozer (again, a pick a lot of teams blew).

by KT on Jan 15, 2008 12:36 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

didn't he HAVE Mihm?
and make the trade for Crawford on draft night?

by Jaina on Jan 15, 2008 12:40 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe
it was something like that.  

But the Butler thing still grieves me.  

by KT on Jan 15, 2008 12:57 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Butler has surprised
a lot of people and good for him.  He was viewed as a huge risk at the time.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 15, 2008 1:14 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You mean
like when he took Michael Finley?
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 15, 2008 4:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see nothing wrong
with re-writing history...when I'm wrong.

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 5:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If only Krause would have taken him
And I still can't believe the Lakers traded him to DC for Kwame Brown.   What the heck were they thinking?

by KT on Jan 15, 2008 6:27 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Same Sam Smith bullcrap
SS: I don't like Noah! He doesn't kiss my ass and for some reason he doesn't open up to the media. And he listens to that hippity hop music.
In my day you weren't allowed to dunk. And you took your hat off when you entered a room. Hey, get off my lawn! (shakes fist from rocker)

by Old Skool Sloan on Jan 15, 2008 8:52 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ha!
(I loved that hat line)

more from Sam:

"Mostly as a result of the team's difficulties, Noah hasn't played that much"

I'd say it's a cause of the difficulties, actually.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 9:45 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Basketball pergutory
With a front line of Joe Smith Andres Nocioni and Ben Wallace, I cane see why everyone in this blog wants to see the youngins get some tick. Pax is wrong wrong wrong, on one hand he doesnt wanna deal anyone cause they are looking at this long term, but at the same time he's trying to make the playoffs, at the expense of the team's growth. Pax and the rest of the organization likes players that don't have as much talent but try hard (ie hinrich, nocioni) and then destroy the confidence of the young players (tyrus, noah) and berate them for petty stuff. I hope we finish dead last in the East

by alee7805 on Jan 15, 2008 1:29 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As much as I want to agree...
... with the idea that the Bulls should be playing their young players at the expense of winning, Pax is only doing what a GM should in that regard. If he feels the Bulls have ANY shot at making the playoffs (and actually we still do... Barely), then he has to follow that sink hole as long as he can, even if it means a first round sweep by Boston. It might be sacreligious to say in here, but if we are somehow able to make the playoffs and catch fire then why not pursue what we thought was a good idea two short months ago. Did anyone really think we were better than Boston this year anyway? At least if we claim the 8 spot we'll have first crack at what will probably be the eventual Eastern Conference champs. As a Bulls fan I can live with that. We might not be very good, but we aren't in rebuilding mode just quite yet. I'm not saying we shouldn't pursue some trades that make sense, but let's not blow up the roster and just hand out playing time because a player is young. Sad to say but Joe Smith is our best big man right now, and he belongs on the floor in key situations over Thomas, Gray, and Noah. Ben Wallace's skills are declining faster than Pax thought, but he's still better than Thomas, Gray, and Noah as well.

by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 15, 2008 8:51 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pax was on the score this morning
I only caught a couple of minutes, but he was getting annoyed at Mike North.  It'll be up at http://www.670thescore.com soon.

by KT on Jan 15, 2008 8:08 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, i heard that interview
and it was a long interview.  I could tell that Pax was getting annoyed with North.  North wouldn't let the issue of the suspension go and seemed to bully Pax a little.  Pax seemed hesitant to get into details of the situation, but believes that Boylan and him are in control.  
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 15, 2008 8:11 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Half hour interview
And not one fucking question about what direction or move Paxson might make to improve this team.

Nice job North! Way to beat a dead a horse and to totally squander any opportunity of finding out what is in store for the rest of the season. Dumb ass.

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 15, 2008 9:26 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hate North
but Pax doesn't talk about trades anyway, so why bother.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 9:32 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can understand not mentioning any trade talk
But the interview was more about no matter what answer Pax gave, it would never be satisfactory to what North wants. So North would keep bringing it up and we keep hitting a stalemate.

What about the mood of the team, how he thinks Boylan is doing, what he'd like to see improved the most. Anything, there is a ton of questions and all North could say was the same shit over and over.

by RogersPark Kris on Jan 15, 2008 9:37 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do other GM's talk about trades?
I only follow the Bulls so I don't catch much what other teams do. I did read somewhere (probably a blog) that Paxson plays it especially close to the vest.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 15, 2008 9:39 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pax seems touchier than most
about it. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just less entertaining for us.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 9:41 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

North is not particularly knowledgeable
about basketball and doesn't like basketball.  North is on 670 and the Bulls are on 1000.  Why does Paxson give him all the interviews?

by chgobr on Jan 15, 2008 11:35 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

did you hear hmi call Griffin
the junk yard dog?
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 15, 2008 12:07 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thoughts on the interview
this is updated on the main post

Not the greatest listen, but some information did come out: Regarding the Noah suspension, Pax made it seem like the 1st suspension was for the altercation with Adams, and the additional game from the players was for an accumulation of other things during the year. He was pretty vague on the details of the 'unanimous' vote, but North did get Pax to explicitly say that the rookies did not vote. Pax also said 'the veterans' made the decision. To me that leaves into question whether guys like Thomas or Sefolosha had a say either.

Regarding trade talks, Pax spent a lot of time whining about bad reporting, but did say that the McGrady reports were completely untrue.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 9:31 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not that important
but I think it'd be interesting to see how this 'vote' really happened. I'm guessing:

Wallace: 'yes'
Griffin: 'yes'
Smith: 'whatever, fine'
Noc: 'Chicago Bull'
Hinrich: ....
Gordon: 'whatever Big Ben says'
Deng: ....
Duhon: ::hiccup::

Tyrus, Thabo, Nichols, Khryapa, Gray: told to shut up

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 9:40 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes...
I'm especially fond of Noc's response, and he would probably have said this as he dramatically dives into the center of the locker room.

by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 15, 2008 9:49 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thakn you.
I was getting so fed up with this certainty that the vote was 'unanimous' and 'team-building.'  It could not possibly have been more obvious that these guys were lying about it.

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 10:13 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Remember the Knicks
voted Marbury off for a while in November, and Zeke over-ruled them.  Zeke lost a lot of players then.   Not paying attention to what the players wanted may have been worse.

One thing that keeps coming up in some reports "why do players have a vote?"  In the history of the NBA, many players end up traded because other players on the team say "We can't play with " fill in the blank.  Marbury was one of those in Phoenix, and reportedly that's what happened with Randolph in Portland.  I'm sure there are more.

by KT on Jan 15, 2008 10:21 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK KT you caught me
massaging the facts the other day.  Let me return the favor.  In the Knicks case, Isiah asked the team for its input...then ignored it.  

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 10:28 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comparing favorably to the Knicks...
... isn't much of an accomplishment :)

But it does underscore the major point to me.  I don't care if it was a unanimous vote or not, whether it was deserved or not, or whether it was approved after the fact.

The point to me is this is the sort of mess crap that just screams "out of control" situation.  The fact that something analogous to something going on with the Knicks is happening to the Bulls is a sure sign of disaster.

Other teams have issues too, of course, but they manage to deal with them 1)Successfully and 2)Without national embarrassment.  Anyone read the articles about the Wizards' vets trying to whip their kids into shape?  Right or wrong, at least those guys are exercising some positive leadership.

by Sports2 on Jan 15, 2008 11:14 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's really
great use of your imagination. You and Tyger should co-write fiction together.
Win, just win.

by sue369 on Jan 15, 2008 10:47 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's why I wrote "guess"
It'd be even more imaginative to believe that Kirk had an opinion about anything!  (ba-zing!)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 10:51 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry you
missed his interview then. He gave his opinion on it.
Win, just win.

by sue369 on Jan 15, 2008 11:04 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No more imaginative
than claiming the vote was legitimately unanimous.

"Oh, yeah, it was unanimous... except we didn't let AT LEAST 20% of the team vote."

by JeffD on Jan 15, 2008 10:58 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Paxson has no answers
He really has no direct responses to any of these questions.  He's searching for words, trying to limit the impact of his words, and looking for every which way to deny what is being written about the Bulls without actually denying it.

Q: Did Ben Wallace and Arn Tellem meet with Jerry Reinsdorf?

Paxson: <searching for words...30 seconds...searching for words><asks for clarification>Now I WOULD say with complete certainty...that can be written...and we talk about this for 10 seconds and it is dismissed.

Pax doesn't actually deny the claim that Wallace and Tellem met with Reinsdorf.

by NBA Observer on Jan 15, 2008 10:14 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"not for public knowledge"
What exactly does John Paxson think a city sports franchise is all about?

The public is your ticket buyer, your TV viewer, your newspaper reader, your hot dog consumer, your jersey wearing, #1 finger waiving, MF-ING priority.

by NBA Observer on Jan 15, 2008 10:19 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the rookies (and young guys)
should have a vote about Wallace & Griffin...

"Should Wallace & Griffin be suspended for the rest of the year for undermining the authority of the coach? (Not veterans allowed)"

Noah: 'yes'
Thomas: 'yes'
Gray: 'yes'
Thabo: 'oui'
Khryapa: 'can i go back to portland now?'
Nichols: 'can i go back to iowa now?'

They can even invite Hinrich, Deng, and Duhon if they want and they will have the same answers as above.

Then they can go to Boylan with a unanimous vote.

by JeffD on Jan 15, 2008 10:14 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Woops..
should have been a reply to Matt's post above

by JeffD on Jan 15, 2008 10:15 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I got nothing outta that interview with Pax
Except that the rookies didn't vote.

How can you speak so long without giving up any new information?

What was the point of the interview?  

It seems that Mike North just wanted to let Paxson know everyone thinks this team is losing itself.

I think he already knew that Mike

by Option27 on Jan 15, 2008 10:28 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Since TT and Thabo
are second year players are they still considered rookies?
Win, just win.

by sue369 on Jan 15, 2008 11:02 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I assume you're replying to an above comment
but while they're not considered rookies, I can't assume they're considered 'veterans' either, which is the term Pax used to say who voted.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 11:03 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No I wasn't
really replying to anything. I was just curious if they are still considered rookies.
Win, just win.

by sue369 on Jan 15, 2008 11:08 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

C'mon, Sue.
Are second year players considered rookies?

I just checked.

You've made too many smart comments for us to believe that remark was apropo of nothing....

by alec on Jan 15, 2008 11:55 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really don't lcare
what you think alec. I've read on here numerous times TT being referred to as a rookie this season so that's why I was asking.
Win, just win.

by sue369 on Jan 15, 2008 12:48 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Especially with the minutes played
I would have to say they are surely not veterans

by Option27 on Jan 15, 2008 11:41 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let the nitpicking begin
For the rest of this season, how are the players going to avoid policing each other whenever one of them acts up?

I'd rather trade the vets, lose every game, then let Ben Wallace make decisions off the court when he's the most idiotic decision maker on the court.

I hope Joakim takes the microphone.  Talk, talk, talk, and talk some more.  Talk to the fans rook because these veterans apparently are deaf, dumb, and stupid.

by NBA Observer on Jan 15, 2008 12:26 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is incompetence the problem?
maybe with the players, but i dont think with the front office.  a lot obviously goes into putting together a winner, and i think along that path you are going to have some bumps.  not everything is going to happen as you planned, and you have to give paxson credit for turning around the bulls pretty damn fast.  the bulls as a whole have regressed and i think that has more to do with no emotional leader on the team and no go to guy when the team is struggling on the court, not paxson or skiles doing a terrible job.  guys on the team have to step up, and it has to come within the group, not a coach or gm telling them to.  these guys are young, it takes time, whether you like it or not.  superstars do not grow on trees, and not many players come into the nba and immediately dominate, it happens yes, but i would say there are more stars in the nba who had to go through rough patches and poor play before their game evolved into all-star caliber
look at billups, perfect example.  sometimes shitty seasons are a blessing in disguise, look at the 1997 spurs and what they have accomplished since.  does this mean the bulls are fine?  no, but i dont think its the end of the world for this team

by Conor on Jan 15, 2008 1:11 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who led the team before Ben Wallace assumed
the role?  We were pretty good before Ben Wallace got here.  We had the same coach, many of the same players albeit young versions, but those teams stepped up.

Where could this leadership have gone?  Hinrich has been a captain before.  This is Deng's first season as a captain.  But how can Ben Wallace and Adrian Griffin organize team meetings to suspend one of their own?

Does good defense cover up the fact that this team has never had a real leader?

by NBA Observer on Jan 15, 2008 1:22 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Antonio Davis
true leader of men.

Actually though, Skiles was the leader.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 1:25 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yea
A harsh one at that, but since all the players were young they just dealt with it. Im thinking wallace came in and started talking about how, Men shouldnt run Men like that, or some crap...and bam UNANIMOUS team mutiny of skiles. UNANMOUS
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Jan 15, 2008 1:46 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You do have up and downs
I remember the Orlando GM was being ripped apart after he chose Howard over Okafor.  Now he is a genius.  Danny Ainge is another good example.  He seemed totally incompetent to me.  Now every one thinks he is a genius.

I dislike the Corpse as much as anyone.  It was a mistake.  Yes , a terrible mistake on so many levels.  We should have kept Chandler.  But Chandler could not flourisn under Skiles and Paxson still believed in Skiles.  Maybe after Paxson's next move we will be calling him a genius.  There is also luck involved.  We need some luck in the draft.  Yes a lot of it is doing due diligence but some of it is luck.  

I prefer watching young players who have potential.  I find this more interesting than older players fighting for a 8th seed.  I do understand the pressure to make the playoffs.  I also wonder if there is incentive pay for Paxson and others for making the playoffs.

by chgobr on Jan 15, 2008 2:22 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's incentive money for
the owners.  Gate recipts from at least two home playoff games.

by Scotter on Jan 15, 2008 3:22 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No reason for anyone here to care about that
Pax has already made clear that they won't pay the luxury tax, so that money's going straight into Reinsdorf's pockets.  Unless you think they'll use it to pass on raising ticket prices again next year.

Yes, I'm kidding.

by Big D on Jan 15, 2008 4:03 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with your point...
but you should find some better examples.  Orlando no longer has the same GM who drafted Howard.  The current GM has been widely questioned for giving a max deal to Lewis.  Ainge has not been credited for acquiring Garnett as much as considered lucky that his former teammate was willing to take less in return than offered from other sources.

by snley on Jan 15, 2008 4:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

do you think
since wallace now has the power to suspend teammates he has the power to trade himself?

by Conor on Jan 15, 2008 1:40 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wallace and Tellem do
Wallace by himself is essentially a brick wall.  Tellem is the brains behind the operations.

I don't think Tellem can be pleased if Wallace starts showing up in trade rumors.  That would place his three highest earning clients on the trading blocks.

by NBA Observer on Jan 15, 2008 1:48 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL
"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Jan 15, 2008 2:45 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

trade hinrich
hinrich, noc and noah for gasol or Igoudala.  

What did Noah say to the coach?

by Zac23 on Jan 15, 2008 2:38 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What did Noah say
Play me.  Look at my PER.  Now look at Wallace's PER.

by NBA Observer on Jan 15, 2008 3:51 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"don't tell me about winning"
probably in a different way.  I would use as my signature but still get over the great Sam Smith...
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 15, 2008 4:13 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but cant get over the great sam smith article
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 15, 2008 4:14 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"We're not at that point yet."
Pax reminds me of Jim Carrey's character in Dumb and Dumber, when he walks up to the hot girl and asks, "What are the chances that you and I could be together?"

Hot girl: "About one in ten million."

Jim Carrey's character: "So you're telling me  there's still a chance."

Give it up, Pax. It's over.

As is your tenure, unless you can show some creativity in remaking this roster with major changes.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Jan 15, 2008 2:40 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL
Very good!

by SlickRick76 on Jan 15, 2008 3:11 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Norm Van Lier
Said he wouldn't mind coming in to coach defense :)

by gobulls1124 on Jan 15, 2008 4:10 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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