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Chris Duhon and Joe Smith: Will Skiles finally be ready to put away his security blankets?

How much will Skiles play Chris Duhon and Joe Smith?  This question troubles me more than any question surrounding the Bulls.  I want to believe that Skiles will never start Duhon over Gordon again.  I want to believe that Skiles will stop playing Duhon and Hinrich together.  I want to believe Skiles will play Thomas, Nocioni, and Noah over Smith.  I want to believe Skiles can see the forest for the trees because I appreciate so many other aspects of his coaching.  But based on past experience, I'm preparing myself for disappointment when it comes to Duhon and Smith.  

The Chris Duhon issue has been well documented here, but let me clarify a few issues.  Duhon is a productive player and there are even a handful of teams that would clearly benefit from Duhon as their starting PG (Lakers, Rockets, Nuggets, and Pacers for example).  And a convincing argument could be made that Duhon was even more productive than Gordon over their first two seasons. Thabo will need to play a lot better to match Duhon's production simply on an individual level, but I don't believe Thabo has to match Duhon's productivity in order to justify replacing him.  Duhon and Gordon have played well together because their roles mesh well.  If Duhon is going to be played, he should only be paired with Gordon.  The Duhon/Hinrich backcourt has produced some of the least effective Bulls lineups over the last two seasons.  The skills sets of Duhon and Kirk just don't mesh well.  Hinrich is capable of playing SG, but he's much more effective at PG.  Playing Duhon with Hinrich makes Hinrich less productive, diminishing Duhon's own value.   There's no reason for Hinrich to play over a 1/3 of his minutes at SG anymore.  The negative impact on Hinrich's productivity is simply too strong to justify playing Duhon over Thabo even last year when Thabo struggled so much offensively.  Ideally, I'd like to see Duhon reduced to the fourth guard playing only as needed.  I believe Gordon's ability to play PG has improved enough that there's no real need for Duhon to play with Gordon either.  But, I'd at least be satisfied if the Duhon/Hinrich backcourt ends and Hinrich hardly ever plays SG on offense.  I believe that scenario would guarantee a career year for Hinrich, and we'd be able to get a better understanding of where he ranks among the best PGs.  

Joe Smith should be a slight improvement over P.J. Brown (The most similar player to Joe Smith at age according to Hollinger actually is P.J. Brown).  Just comparing Smith to Brown and Malik Allen makes Smith look like a positive addition.  Smith is still athletic enough to finish inside in the paint (59.6 inside FG%) unlike Brown and Allen who both shot under 50% inside the paint (40.3% and 48.1% respectively).   Smith is also a better rebounder than either Brown or Allen.  He also fits the defensive system better than Brown or Allen. with his elite ability to draw charges/flop.  He drew 43 charges in only 1503 minutes giving the Bulls four players that drew 40+ charges in 06/07.  He's good enough defensively that he could really benefit from playing with elite defenders for the first time in his career.  However, getting caught up in that slight improvement would be a mistake.  Tyrus Thomas and Andres Nocioni are both more productive players than Joe Smith at this point and should play almost all of the minutes at PF.  Thomas based simply on his ability to jump is more productive than the majority of power forwards at this point.  Nocioni is more productive both offensively and defensively than Smith.  Unless he manages to recapture the level he played at several seasons ago, he won't deserve to play ahead of those two.  It may be possible, but I believe it's unlikely.  Hollinger's projected PER predicted Smith's decline in productivity last year so the drop off wasn't unexpected (14.16 projected PER/13.95 actual). Projected PER simiarly predicted P.J. Brown's decline accurately last year including Brown's huge 6% drop in FG%. Hollinger's model appears to have a good handle on this type of player. So I wouldn't expect alot of Smith.  And even if he does recapture his youth, Tyrus and Nocioni likely still could be the more productive players.  Joe Smith could play center some.  But, allowing Noah to develop by playing the 10-15 minutes when Wallace is on the bench seems like an ideal situation, and a more attractive option.  If Noah just plays as well as Tyrus did last year then he'll likely be a more productive player than Smith and deserve the minutes.  From public comments, Smith seems to believe that he'll play a major role to the point that he'll need to dust off his supposed long lost post game.  The only reason Joe Smith should be playing more than 10 min/g is an injury or a career year.  Joe Smith is a nice insurance policy against injury for the next year or two, but should be nothing more than that.

Tyrus, Thabo, and Noah are essentially a second core to that of Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng.  They're the key to whether the Bulls go from very good to championship contender.  If they develop in the same way that Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng have then it won't really matter if any of that six becomes a superstar.  If Skiles uses Duhon and Smith to hold back their development, it will be a huge mistake, both for this season and the long term.  But, it's one that I fear Skiles and the vast majority of NBA coaches are inclined to make.  I got the impression from public comments that Paxson began to get frustrated with Skiles not playing Tyrus and Thabo enough, and playing Duhon too much.  Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part, but I've always been pretty confident that Paxson sees and understands the big picture.  Having Duhon and Smith on this team makes sense as protection against injury. They both have more value to the Bulls than to other teams because they fit the system and at this point the only thing of any real value to the Bulls is an all-star level post scorer, which is something neither Duhon or Smith can bring in a trade.  I believe that's the big picture Paxson sees, but I'm not sure if Skiles can see the same big picture.  I don't know how this will play out, but I'm bracing myself for a lot of Duhon and Smith and preparing for another season of yelling at Skiles through the TV to play the kids.

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WoW!!
This, ladies and gentlemen, is EXACTLY what an argument should look like.

Well done sir! Not only did you clearly state where you stand, and offer valid points for what makes your views, in your oppinion, the best view, but...you also recognised the other side of the argument and played it off quite nicely. My english teacher would be proud!

Matt, you should post this in some tutorial, how to make an effective blog-a-bull argument.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Sep 20, 2007 1:04 AM CDT   0 recs

Thanks for the compliments
Although I doubt your English teacher would have been proud of the grammar and typos.  I think it's pretty well cleaned up after the fourth time through.  And hopefully it's more coherent now, I usually have so many ideas I want to communicate that I tend to jump from idea to idea without clear transitions or fully explaing the concepts.

by Scotter on Sep 20, 2007 4:49 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Nicely done
Your thoughts were interesting enough that I read them twice and actually noticed a few areas where you cleaned up (I am not as quick to point out mistakes as some people here, but since you have been revising anyway, its "see the forest for the trees").

Substantively, I tend to agree with you.  I do think that Skiles will overplay Duhon, unless and until Thabo shows he can both shoot and avoid dumb turnovers (like trying to split seams on difficult drives between two opposing players as he is wont to do).

I have little doubt that Joe Smith will be the starting PF on Halloween.  And I have a suspicion that he too will be overplayed and will probably start most of the season, as PJ did.  No matter how you slice it, PF minutes are going to be tight, between Smith, Thomas, Noc, and Noah (who probably won't see any minutes there, even though he can play 4 or 5).

The silver lining to all this of course is that Skiles has options.  The team is stacked, and better than last year personnel-wise without even discussing the current players' development.  There are 12 real NBA players (if you are willing to count Khryapa and A-drain).  On any given night, Skiles can go 10 deep no problem.  The trick, as you say, is for him to give the lion's share of the minutes to the right 6 or 7 guys.

Score. Or do not score. There is no clutch.

by preverbal on Sep 20, 2007 11:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I hate to quibble
"Thomas based simply on his ability to jump is more productive than the majority of power forwards at this point."  That's kind of a stretch, isn't it?  If he comes back with a jump shot, maybe, but otherwise, I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Sep 20, 2007 9:37 AM CDT   0 recs

I was pretty careful with that statement
In terms of PER, PW%, and almost anything other measure of productivity Thomas was more productive than the majority of PFs last year.(When it comes to PER 15.0 is the mean, but the median PER tends to be around 13.0)  And he was also more productive than Joe Smith.  I'm of course talking about rates of productivity here.  I've been high on Thomas sense I began to really understand the impact he makes.  Defensively he generates enough turnovers to actually more than offset his own significant turnover problems on offense.  And the offensive end, he does one thing well and it's entirely related to his jumping ability.  He dunks the ball with incredible frequency despite having no significant offensive skills.  Many of those are easy baskets that no one else on this team could get.  If he can cut down his turnovers to even a 15.0 TO-r then he won't even need a jumpshot to be one of the more productive PFs in the league.  Tyson Chandler is actually a good comparison with repect to this point in terms of productivity.  High energy players with a strong defensive impact, but no offensive skills (Except for the fact that 29% of their FGAs are dunks).

by Scotter on Sep 20, 2007 10:33 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

the thought of a Thomas/Noah frontcourt
is exciting, but yeah, I don't see Skiles changing his infuriating substitution and rotation patterns.

by hscs on Sep 20, 2007 10:16 AM CDT   0 recs

Exciting?
more like nerve wrecking. Neither has much offense on the table. So if you mean exciting like all the blocks and rebounds and occasional put back, then yes...I guess exciting can be the word

by Option27 on Sep 21, 2007 9:51 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd be shocked if Joe Smith doesn't start
Nocioni may be more productive than Smith but I just see Smith as the better fit with the starting unit. Smith will likely look for his own shot less (lower usage rate), and is (I'm guessing, but it's likely) a smarter player than Nocioni.

I know this may make me guilty of over-valuing intangibles (despite grit factor, I think Noc's intangibles actually are poor), but I'll prefer Smith's ability to fit in with the guys who should have the ball (Kirk/Ben/Luol) rather than Noc.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 20, 2007 11:31 AM CDT   0 recs

and I had no idea
that Joe Smith had such a flopping prowess. Not sure how I feel about that ;-)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 20, 2007 11:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd be shocked if Smith doesn't start as well,
but I can at least dream for now.  I'd prefer to see Tyrus start because that was a really effecitve lineup last year and he would get regular consistent minutes with enough scorers on the floor.  I liken it to a baseball concept.  You can stick a young player at the bottom of the order or on the bench so if he struggles it won't hurt the team.  Or if you really want that player to have the best chance for success, you stick him in the 2 hole in front of your best hitter so he sees plenty of fastballs.  I believe starting Thomas is taking that second approach. It puts the least amount of pressure on him and gives him the best chance for success because the other team is worrying about the other four guys on the court.

As far as Nocioni goes.  I understand your critques, but I'm curious if Nocioni can return to something closer to his 05/06 play.  If you look back at 05/06, his usage rate, turnover rate, and  assist rate were all alot more acceptable.  Plus, Joe Smith's usage rates aren't exactly low either given his modest TS% and turnover rates.  I'd also rather have Noc making 38% of his 3s, than Smith making 37% of his mid-range jumpers.  There's just too huge a gap in efficiency there.  Though, I'd agree that if Noc maintiains his 06/07 blackhole habits, the distinction between Noc and Smith isn't nearly as clear.

by Scotter on Sep 20, 2007 12:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I see your point with the lineups
If Tyrus is coming off the bench, the only scorer that's with him is Noc. But hopefully he can get plenty of minutes with Deng/Hinrich/Gordon (likely 2 of those three) even without being a starter.

No concerns over playing Wallace and Tyrus together to start the game?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 20, 2007 1:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It seems like a problem starting two guys who,
 can't make a jump shot to save their lives.  But, it was pretty much the Bulls most effective lineup last year.  That lineup averaged 102.7 pts/48 min and only gave up 91.0 pts/48 min.  At least statistically, Tyrus didn't hinder the offense.  Teams still have to keep a body on him at all times to protect against lobs passes for easy dunks.  And his ability to draw fouls helps compensate for some of his jumpshot issues.  Anyway, the defensive value of Thomas and Wallace together overwhelms alot of the offensive issues.  

by Scotter on Sep 20, 2007 2:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Tyrus has an impact on the guards too
He can finish around the basket, which makes Hinrich's dribble penetration a lot more effective.  Wallace and PJ were horrible for that.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Sep 21, 2007 9:23 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Doesn't Skiles deserve some credit
for Tyrus' development? He was a rookie (and a young one at that) and by the end of the season he was playing meaningful minutes on a playoff-caliber team. And he genuinely was a better player by then, too.

Of course the cynic in me would say he only got those minutes because Noc was hurt, and then Skiles completely crapped the bed in his playoff rotations by limiting Tyrus' minutes then.

But I'm not completely antsy to give Tyrus 35 minutes or make him a starter. I think a modest increase in minutes is fine, and the development will come through other non-game work. The end of next season is a long way away, so by then Tyrus could force himself into heavy action and even a starter's job. I don't believe he needs to be given 'consistent' minutes to develop, to be honest.

My hope is that while Smith starts, Tyrus is automatically an equal option off the bench with Nocioni, depending on need. If Smith or Wallace picks up some fouls then put in Tyrus and move Smith to center. If Gordon's out early and the team needs scoring, put in Noc. I always thought they paired up together as a 3-4 combo pretty well too.

But I have the Skiles-induced fear that Noc will be the first big off the bench no matter what.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 20, 2007 1:32 PM CDT   0 recs

Skiles certainly helped get him
to a point where he wasn't completely lost and held him accountable.  He could have done alot worse, but I remember not being alone during the season calling for more playing time for Tyrus.  I think Thabo could have been handled out let better.  Since he's been here, Scott's rotation patterns have basically to throw various combinations out there until something works.  That was fine when the talent level was lower and Skiles had a deep roster of mediocre players.  

But, the talent level has changed and players were added to the team to fill more specfic roles.  Skiles shouldn't be just throwing any five guys out there anymore.  Just throwings guys in there led to alot of lineups that simply had no chance to succeed.  The time as come for more consistent logical rotations where the pieces fit together.  My thoughts on what those rotations should look like is too long to fit in the comments, but I'll put another diary together covering that subject.  

by Scotter on Sep 20, 2007 2:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Tyrus's post-AS stats
I thought it might be instructive to take a look at Thomas's post All-Star numbers. Thomas's splits are available at various websites, but I adjusted everything to /40 min numbers. He averaged 18.2 min/g after the break.

FG  FGA  FT  FTA STL BLK TO   PF  OR DR TRB AS PTS
6.2 12.1 5.1 7.7 1.8 2.5 3.5 5.7 3.7 7.9 11.6 1.8 17.6

FG%  FT%  AsR  ToR  Usg    RbR  TS%
52.1   65.6   8.5   16.9 19.9  16.5  56.8

by Scotter on Sep 23, 2007 3:54 AM CDT   0 recs

usg-r
seems kinda high, but Thomas' ability to score points no one else can (including the ones from the free throw line) shines through. I hope Skiles recognizes how much he can help the offense.

by hscs on Sep 23, 2007 8:39 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Does anyone think he can be a 20/12 guy?
Obviously, speaking like that is the traditional "per game" manner, and I understand these are based on "per 40"? Plus, it's probably way too early in his career, and his game is way too flawed to reliably predict it.

But I am curious if anyone thinks it's realistically possible.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Sep 23, 2007 10:05 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think 20/12 is a really unlikely.
As high as I am on Thomas, I don't expect him to ever average more than 34-35 min/g because of fouls.  I've used the Shawn Kemp comparison before, and Kemp never averaged even 35 min/g so he never averaged 20 pts/g in Seattle or 12 rebounds.  /40 min Kemp was getting 22 and 13, he just never was able to play enough minutes to be a 20/12 player.

by Scotter on Sep 23, 2007 5:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

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